← How To Fail With Elizabeth Day
Loading summary
Transcript51 lines
- [00:00]
Jonathan Van Ness
It's Jonathan Van Ness from Getting Better. With Jonathan Van Ness, it's easy to feel hopeless. But we don't have to stay there. I'm all about finding places where we can turn that energy into hope and into action. One of those places is Americans United for Separation of Church and State. Americans United, or au, is this quiet but mighty force working every day to preserve freedom without favor and equality without exception. I am so obsessed with that tagline. And let me tell you something, honey, that wall between church and state, paper thin. It's got a leak, honey. It's one of the last safeguards protecting so many of our rights. So right now, from bodily autonomy to LGBTQ + rights to the future of public schools, to me, this is about creating a world where everyone gets to live as themselves. As long as you're not harming anyone else. Now is not the time to curl up and hide. It's the time to link arms and stand together for a better future. Join Americans United for Separation of Church and State and their growing movement because church, state separation protects us all. Learn more and join fight@au.org better. Let's go. Americans United.
- [01:04]
Elizabeth Day
The detective said missing kids usually come home.
- [01:08]
Bernie Sanders
What happens when they don't? Based on a true story Police looking for John Gacy. We discovered bodies by the looks of it.
- [01:16]
Jamie Dornan
The younger man, the things he did to those kids. He's sick.
- [01:22]
Elizabeth Day
The system bailed these families.
- [01:24]
Bernie Sanders
Devil in disguise. John Wayne Gacy. Streaming now only on Peacock.
- [01:29]
Elizabeth Day
Do you know how many there are?
- [01:31]
Bernie Sanders
Up to you to find out.
- [01:43]
Elizabeth Day
Welcome to how to Fail with me, Elizabeth Day. Today I'm reaching back into the archive to share a curated collection of some of my favourite conversations. Conversations that remind us we're never as alone as we might think. We first up, it's actor Jamie Dornan, who opens up about how failing at school helped shape the person he is today. And fun fact, we actually went to the same school, although he's a few years younger than I am. But this was a fascinating one for me to compare notes. Then we hear from US Senator Bernie Sanders, who reflects on his teenage years and the humbling experience of being good, but not quite good enough for his high school basketball team. Whether you're looking for comfort, insight, or just a reminder that failure, failure is part of the journey. I hope these stories resonate with you. That brings us on to your first failure, which is your failure to do that well at school. And fun fact, we both went to the same school, although I am older than you, so I don't think we ever coincided because I left in the third year. But you went to school in Methody in Belfast.
- [02:54]
Jonathan Van Ness
Yep.
- [02:54]
Elizabeth Day
So tell me what happened about at school.
- [02:58]
Jamie Dornan
I don't look back in school and think that it was a failure because when I was at school, I felt that I was there to gain friends and play sport and sort of come out the other side with this sense of being part of a group and having a structure of friends in my life. I was very aware of that at school. I really felt like I should be. I want to be, like, friends with everyone. And it wasn't even to be popular. It was just to actually have friendship and probably particularly boys, because I have two sisters and I was always sort of longing for brothers, basically. Not that, listen, I love my sisters are brilliant, but you do. There's a part of you that always thinks, if you've only got one sex, siblings of like, what would it be like to have the other? I really wasn't at school in my head to get an education that was just not. It's terrible. And I. I tell my kids very differently now as a parent, but I didn't see it as school being about that as much as my parents tried to drill into me that that's very much what school is meant to be about. I didn't see it that way. And as a result, I did no work. I really mean that in the truest sense of the word, no work. I really didn't. I don't say that with any pride at all. As I said before, it's not a message I will pass on to my kids. But, you know, when it came to, like, revision for stuff and your mates would always be like, yeah, I've done nothing. Yeah, absolutely. Just done nothing. I'm not ready for this exam at all. And I began, no, I've done nothing. And I go, yeah, no, me too. No, no, I'm serious. I've literally, literally done nothing. I haven't opened a book, you know, if I've had study time. My dad comes in to check an hour later to make sure, you know, I was literally like sort of making, you know, study graphs and coloring stuff in and, you know, you know, mucking about in my Game Boy or something, you know, just anything but revision. And the proof was in the pudding a wee bit like, I didn't do very well in my exams and all my friends who said they hadn't done work but actually had done did a bit better than me, and then everyone else who worked very hard did a lot better. Than me. I also had an issue with school about how exams were. I always felt like it was kind of just a memory test. A lot of the time you're being prepped for the particular questions that were going to come up, sometimes the exact questions that were going to come up and the teacher would kind of have a sense of what it was going to be. Even for the state exams, not even for the in school, like the mocks and stuff, by the way, which is an easy way. I could have just learned those answers and done the work and memorized stuff. Can you see the relief of people when they open their exam paper and they'll be like, yeah, it came up. I would never even have that relief because I wouldn't even have bothered to learn and revise and remember all this stuff. And I didn't do terribly at school. I did enough to pass my GCSEs, I did enough to come back from my A levels just with a bit of negotiating here and there. But I struggled with the sort of structure of our school and I felt that I would have potentially done better in a different school where whatever strengths that I had were harnessed a wee bit differently. I have a lot of good things to say about Methy because as I say, I've still got all my best mates in the world from that school and from a couple other schools in Belfast, but friends from when I was a kid. But that whole structure of it with the sort of donning the big black capes and the silly hats and putting this massive blockage between students and the teachers and making them so unapproachable and terrifying. I just don't think that's the way a school should be. And I understand that that comes from trying to insert respect in the kids so that you will respect these people who are in charge of you and you respect your elders and stuff. It actually makes me do the opposite. You'd have my respect if you smiled at me and knew my name and were wearing normal fucking clothes and not some fucking sinister black cape. Do you know what I mean? Like, I just. I've always really struggled with that, you know, and even when we early days, when we were going to see some schools for our eldest, we went to see this school and the headmaster was saying, we're very, very relaxed here, you know, the kids, it's all first name terms. I'm saying all the right things I want to hear. And I said something along those lines of like, I've always found it very strange with that sort of us and them thing that teachers put at my school, very much so that like, you know, I don't know how to say it really because I am. I did have a good time at school but I.
- [07:20]
Elizabeth Day
It sounds like you, which is interesting because I wouldn't initially have thought this about you but like you were a bit of a rebel.
- [07:26]
Jamie Dornan
I wouldn't say I was rebel, I was sort of maybe trying to get to that. Like I wasn't badly behaved at school but I did struggle with a lot of the sort of conforming at school and that whole thing of like if one of those teachers, the headmaster, the vice headmaster, whatever it is, headmistress was walking down the corridor like they were so on you about your shirt being like an inch untucked or you know something your color being up a little bit because you've sort of thrown it on after PE class or whatever. So if you saw one of those teachers walking down the corridor, you were terrified. That shouldn't be the case. You shouldn't be terrified of your teachers. I feel like I was always alone with my shirt untucked or whatever. So I wasn't a bad person. But I struggled with that sort of conforming to the rules that that particular school set for me and in the way they studied and the way you're harnessed in class. Cuz I didn't think I was stupid, but I felt like I was made to feel I was stupid quite a lot at that school. And the school I went to and you went to was very much like you're either going to be a doctor, a lawyer or you're going to work in business. And there was really genuinely nothing else talked about. That was just the way it was and maybe slightly a bit the time it was too. But if you sort of uttered the idea of doing anything outside of those three vocations, you're kind of laughed out of the room. You just weren't listened to. Not that I was sitting there going, I want to be an actor. I really didn't think I want to.
- [08:44]
Elizabeth Day
Be the golden torso.
- [08:44]
Jamie Dornan
I want to be that. That's a, that's a massive aim for a kid from Belfast. I want to be the golden torso. It's not as if I get it, but I never felt stupid, but I felt that I had something to give that maybe could have been harnessed better or seen maybe by teachers and stuff, you know.
- [09:01]
Elizabeth Day
So interesting talking to you about it because I had forgotten how terrifying Methody was from that perspective. My memory of it was very much, I need to do well at exams to get approval. And that was a kind of habit that shaped the rest of my life in quite a negative way because I thought, if I just work hard, I'll get approval and that will make me feel better about myself. And obviously that never really happened. And my memory was much more, because I've always spoken with this English accent that I didn't feel included or welcomed at all in my peer group. So actually, methody for me was not about friends at all. It was about feeling really isolated and sad and probably terrified, as you say, because it was so regimented.
- [09:50]
Jamie Dornan
If we could switch your experience with my experience or we could combine the two, if use them. Yeah, It'd be like. I mean, they'd be delighted with us. Would be like the perfect product that they've created. The exam side of it. My mother died just after my GCSes and then four of my best mates were killed in a car accident. All from my year at school the following summer. I wasn't in a great place, I've got to say, in my head. And that's when I was talking about. We had these negotiations. I'd done okay in my GCSes, but my mom was dying the whole way through and I wasn't. And I wasn't doing any work anyway. But that had sort of become this, like, other huge factor when it came to working out what I would do next in terms of A levels and stuff. And we came this deal that I would stay at school, do my A levels of methody, but I'd board for two years. We had a boarding department. It's actually quite good. If you've gone through school, your whole school life as a day pupil and there's a boarding department at that school, you're always fascinated by what goes on in there. You know, when they go behind that wee door, what happens down there. Like, it's just a whole other world that you just aren't privy to. So you get to do that once you're a bit more assured of yourself. And you're 16, 17, 18, and you're probably at the right end of the totem pole in terms of what happens in boarding and the bullying that goes on in every boarding school, probably. And I played rugby and stuff and that was like help in boarding to go in and be on the rugby team. You knew you weren't going to get messed about, to be honest. So I didn't do well, mate. I was. I was about to say I did okay. I didn't do well. I got CDE I think, but I got enough to get into a university that I didn't want to go to, but I was sort of forced to go. Not forced to go to, but like, it just seemed like the done thing, like what we're saying about that type of school is like you chose the right A levels to stay in the same path, to get to this certain goal, which always struck me as quite a boring goal. And the only thing I ever, ever knew about myself growing up was that I didn't want to work in an office. That's the only thing I've ever truly known about myself. I just don't have the right patience, aptitude. I don't really know how to categorize it, but I just knew that I didn't want to do that. I'm not saying that means I wanted to be an actor, anything that's frivolous as that. But I knew that I didn't want to do that and all of these things I was being led towards were kind of pushing me in that direction. So I didn't do very well with my A levels. And then I went to A uni that I kind of only went to because I got in to do a marketing degree and absolutely no interest. You know, my school would have been kind of happy with that because it's something that could end in a sort of relatively serious job. And the whole time I felt like I was sort of doing, making those decisions against my will. I guess this sort of comes back to, in terms of why I think it ended up being good for me sort of failing at school is had I worked, had I really taken those exams seriously, those mock exams, those your GCSEs, your A levels, I mean, even A levels, I swear to God, I'm not doing it to sound. It's not even cool. Even if I didn't do any work for my levels, nothing, I mean, literally nothing went to uni. I went to nine hours of uni, five of them in freshers week. So then I spent eight months and I went to four hours of university in eight months. I played rugby four days a week and drank a lot. I had a good time, I've got to say, But I knew I wasn't on the right path. Had I done better in my A levels and then gone to uni and done A course I really wanted to do and done very well and come out of a good degree, I'd be on a very different path and I just wouldn't be happy. So actually that failure at school for me, not for everyone, obviously, but for me, worked to my favor in a really big way.
- [13:21]
Elizabeth Day
So, talking about youth, we're going back in time for your second failure. To you as a young man when you were at high school and you were cut from the basketball team.
- [13:30]
Bernie Sanders
Yes.
- [13:31]
Elizabeth Day
So you are a tall man. What's your height?
- [13:33]
Bernie Sanders
Six feet.
- [13:34]
Elizabeth Day
Yeah, so. And you were good at basketball. Tell us the story.
- [13:37]
Bernie Sanders
Well, I was a good basketball player, but I grew up in a community where there were a lot of other good basketball players. So the elementary school we call elementary school, we won the borough championship. We're one of the best. And I was on the team, and I went to high school, which was a very good basketball school, with the hope that I would play on the varsity again, one of the better teams in New York City. And I initially made what we call the junior varsity. I don't know what you call it here, but there's a varsity in junior varsity. Younger, you're on the junior varsity. And I got my Beautiful uniform, number 10, very shiny. Slept in it, did you? I did. I love that uniform.
- [14:18]
Elizabeth Day
What color was it?
- [14:19]
Bernie Sanders
It was gold and white. It was very nice. Then when there was a practice, the coach said, well, sorry, you're not going to be on the team anymore. So that was very disappointing. So that, you know, meant that I was not going to make the varsity team. That was a failure, if you like. I was good, but not good enough. At least the coach thought that. And then I had to decide, as somebody who was interested in athletics and participated in athletics, well, what do I do next? Well, I'd always been a pretty good. Always had good endurance. You know, I was good long distance, used to run around the block and stuff. And so I'll go off of the track team. We'll see how that goes. And it turned out that I was pretty good at it and became one of the better long distance runners in New York City, where the failure was not making the basketball team, but where that became converted into a success story was that being a good runner and winning races and getting medals and all that stuff maybe gave me a sense of confidence that I might not otherwise have had.
- [15:17]
Elizabeth Day
I've got this image of the young Bernie Sanders running around Brooklyn. Is that what you used to do, run around the block there?
- [15:23]
Bernie Sanders
Well, you don't run all over Brooklyn, but that's a big. That's many miles. But we used to run in cross country, which you do here. Of course, in those days, in high school, it was two and a half miles and Then I was a good miler and a half miler. Mostly a miler. Hmm.
- [15:38]
Elizabeth Day
I think young people, obviously, we're all in the process of finding out who we really are. That's one of the purposes of life. And when you're young, it's quite difficult to differentiate between what people are telling you you are and how you feel inside. When you were rejected for that basketball team, was there a sense that you internalized that rejection? Did you take it personally? It's interesting to me that it's still uppermost in your consciousness.
- [16:04]
Bernie Sanders
It was painful, sure. I loved basketball, and I very much wanted to make the varsity. And it was a very harsh blow that I was not going to be able to do that. No ifs, buts and maybes. So it hurt. On the other hand, as I said, getting on the track team and eventually becoming captain of the team was a positive experience.
- [16:23]
Elizabeth Day
So how old were you at this time?
- [16:24]
Bernie Sanders
15, 16.
- [16:26]
Elizabeth Day
So what was 15, 16 year old Bernie, like, other than sleeping in your uniform?
- [16:31]
Bernie Sanders
This is a therapy session here?
- [16:32]
Elizabeth Day
Yes, basically.
- [16:37]
Bernie Sanders
I don't know. You know, I was a fairly typical kid, I think. I spent half my life playing ball and, you know, being on the track team and looking out for girls and, you know, doing some studies. Nothing out of ordinary, I think.
- [16:49]
Elizabeth Day
And it was just you and your brother, is that right?
- [16:51]
Bernie Sanders
Yeah, my mother, father and my brother and myself.
- [16:53]
Elizabeth Day
Did you get on with your brother as a child?
- [16:55]
Bernie Sanders
I did. He was very much a mentor to me. Opened up a lot of doors in my life. My father had dropped out of school, I can't remember what it was, at 14 or something, and he left Poland at 17. And my mother. And by the way, just on that issue, some years ago, my brother and I and our wives went back to the town that he was born in in Poland. And it really, you know, I know, you know, people say these things all the time, but you imagine somebody 17 years of age, can't speak a word of English, don't have a nickel in your pocket. Coming to the United States of America, man, that is a very brave thing to do. And that's true of so many immigrants who were in the same boat as my dad was. We grew up in a house where there weren't a lot of books. My mom graduated high school. You know, we had a few books in the house, but my brother brought books into the house and exposed me to ideas that I'm sure I otherwise would not have learned about. He was involved in politics when he was at Brooklyn College in New York. City. So, you know, it just kind of rubbed off a little bit on me.
- [18:01]
Elizabeth Day
Please do follow how to fail to get new episodes as they land on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, Amazon Music Music or wherever you get your podcasts. Please tell all your friends this is an Elizabeth Day and Sony Music Entertainment original podcast. Thank you so much for listening.
- [18:25]
Bernie Sanders
And Doug, here we have the Limu Emu in its natural habitat, helping people.
- [18:30]
Jamie Dornan
Customize their car insurance and save hundreds with Liberty Mutual.
- [18:36]
Bernie Sanders
Fascinating.
- [18:37]
Jamie Dornan
It's accompanied by his natural ally, Doug. Uh, Limu is that guy with the binoculars watching us?
- [18:43]
Bernie Sanders
Cut the camera.
- [18:44]
Jamie Dornan
They see us. Only pay for what you need@libertymutual.com Liberty Liberty Liberty Liberty Savings Ferry underwritten by Liberty Mutual Insurance Company and affiliates Excludes Massachusetts.
- [18:54]
Elizabeth Day
Start the season with Etsy and make.
- [18:55]
Jamie Dornan
Your holiday traditions extra special.
- [18:57]
Elizabeth Day
On Etsy, you'll discover original pieces from small shops that will help you celebrate your way. Shop Etsy for holiday decor that makes you feel seen.
- [19:05]
Jamie Dornan
Special starts on Etsy. Tap the banner to shop now.