Stanley Tucci (3:33)

Well, you know, she was diagnosed, and she was, I think, 43 years old. And this was an incredibly healthy person. She was barely ever sick a day in her life. She was diagnosed at stage four, but had no symptoms other than a tiny little lump. But the cancer had already spread. Was basically practically everywhere we traveled, as I said, around the world, trying to figure out how to just make her better. And there are two parts to this. I suppose the most profound failure was a selfish act, which was I could not be with her when she died. She died in our house. And I knew that if I were in bed next to her or, you know, by the bed next to her and was there when she passed away, that I probably. That I wouldn't be able to function and wouldn't be able to take care of the kids. So I began, sort of almost like a few days before, to remove myself emotionally. And I had to do it because, knowing me, I would have been plagued with that moment. I would have taken that moment into my body, and I wouldn't have been able to take care of the kids. So I started to remove myself, and I feel that's the bigger failure. I suppose, in some ways it's a success because I was able to, you know, steel myself and get on and take care of the kids and start to figure out how we were gonna organize our new life. But it was so awful that I just couldn't be there for it. And I remember being on our patio and looking. I could see our master bedroom. There was a balcony. And I remember when she passed away, there were friends there. And it was interesting because they were all women who were in the room with her. My stepdaughter and a friend of ours who's a nurse who was administering morphine to her and a couple other friends. And I remember them. I was standing on the patio with other friends. And I remember the French doors being opened and the sheets being taken off the bed and the ambulance had come and all the windows being opened and aired out, like letting air into the room and almost like letting her out. I never saw her again. I think wanting to save her, trying to help, you just can't do it. And then you just feel awful. I'm a little. What better about it now, but the guilt was so profound that I couldn't be there and that I couldn't save her. Yeah.

Elizabeth Day (6:20)

I'm so sorry. I'm so sorry.

Stanley Tucci (6:23)

Oh, thank you. Thanks.

Elizabeth Day (6:25)

Were you able to talk to Kate about that? About the reason for your emotional distancing or was it kind of beyond that point?

Stanley Tucci (6:36)

No, she wasn't really terribly cognizant at that point. So. No. Recently, a few years ago, a very good friend of mine died. My friend Steve Buscemi, his wife, Joe, and we were all very, very close. And she died of cancer. And I went to Flutter, New York to see her and she was so thin and she was just sort of laying and friends were there and you'd sort of go into the room and see her. And every now and again she might hear you and she might say something. But Steve was so brave and he was with her until the very end as she literally just faded away. And I thought that bravery was just incredible. And his sense of peace that. That he had. That I in no way had. I didn't have that at all. For months, for years, I kept imagining that she would come back. I still think I see her. I still dream about her. She's not very nice to me in the dreams, which is very upsetting. Really? Yeah. She's wake up and I feel so awful. Right. She just is very dismissive of me and I'm so happy to see her. You know, the dreams are so real and she's like. She's always. She's either with somebody else or she's just not really interested, which I think I'm like, but why? Why can't I have a really nice dream? So I'm laughing, but it's like. It's sort of just like, you know, salt in the wound, you know?

Geri Halliwell Horner (8:05)

Yeah.

Elizabeth Day (8:08)

I mean, that sounds to me like a representation of your own guilt and your own self loathing. That's. That's you projecting. That's not actually a message from her?

Stanley Tucci (8:18)

No. I think you're probably right. Yes. Yes.

Elizabeth Day (8:22)

Do you believe in an afterlife in any form? No.

Stanley Tucci (8:26)

But as Woody Allen said, I am bringing a change of underwear. Not really. No. I don't think so.

Elizabeth Day (8:35)

So how old were your children when Kate died?

Stanley Tucci (8:39)

Camilla was seven and the twins were nine.

Elizabeth Day (8:42)

And how do you continue functioning after something that traumatic, how do you live with that grief and raise your children? How did you do it, Stanley?

Stanley Tucci (8:56)

You can't be afraid to ask for help, and yet you have to know when to tell people to sort of keep their distance. The kids went to therapy straight away. It's really about having a community that's going to help you in meeting family and friends. That's really, really important. But you have to be the one to structure that, because everybody deals with grief differently, and everybody had a different relationship with Kate, meaning the adults. And sometimes people will have a tendency to romanticize a person to sort of play into the sort of more maudlin aspects of loss. And some people will do the opposite and sort of like, you know, buck up, stiff upper lip and all that. So you have to be the one to kind of regulate that and oversee it. And then you have to create a new structure for them, because kids need and want structure. So the first thing was to hire people who would be able to help me run the household. And I also knew that I wasn't going to work for a long period of time, that I was just going to stay home, get everybody back on track, and then I'd be able to go to work. And luckily, I was able to do that financially. Those are the most important things, is to keep a structure. A lot of it is the same structure, but as I said, with new people and always encouraging them to talk about it.

Elizabeth Day (10:18)

And did you have space within that necessary pragmatism and caring for your children to process your own feelings at some point, or was it one of those things that you delayed and that kind of hit you years later?

Stanley Tucci (10:35)

No, it kept hitting me. I did speak to a therapist, you know, shrink about it a little bit. But the hard thing was, you know, they say, well, you know, you're grieving, and you go, yeah, no, I know. I know I'm grieving, you know. Well, these things happen, you know, what are you going to say? I mean, there's really only so much you can say. And I guess, yes, you do go through those five stages of grief or loss or, you know, but you kind of have to really go through them. I cried a lot by myself and put the kids to bed and then just sort of go and fall apart for a bit. It was very hard to go through all of her belongings. I still, how many years later, have things of hers that I just can't get rid of. It's taken years and even here recently, and, you know, in the last couple years, going through photos and going through objects and whatever, you know, you end up just falling apart in the middle of the night in my office, you know, in the back of the garden by myself. I've been very lucky. I had so many people, so many wonderful friends help me. My parents were incredible. My stepdaughter was great. And it's really just a matter of just pushing through it and eventually not blaming yourself and not having that survivor's guilt.

Elizabeth Day (11:52)

What was Kate like?

Stanley Tucci (11:55)

She was amazing. She was very shy. She was incredibly smart, very well read. She was a great equestrian. She loved the out of doors. She hated wearing shoes. She hated makeup, and she hated dressing up. The complete opposite of me. I don't like to wear makeup, but I like to dress up and wear shoes. I think I would sleep in my shoes if I could. She was an amazing mother. She was a really great cook. She became a social worker, and then she got her certificate as a mediator. She wanted to study international law when she first got pregnant with her first kids with my stepchildren, and she gave up that dream to have two kids, and she wanted to study international law, and she wanted to mediate between the Palestinians and the Israelis. That was her dream. Her thinking was very high powered, as opposed to her husband, who just wanted to make people laugh.

Elizabeth Day (12:57)

I was about to say that puts what the rest of us do into some kind of perspective.

Stanley Tucci (13:00)

I know, I know. I said to her once, I said, kate, you know, you're really so amazing. You help so many people. You want to help so many people. You're a great mother. You're a great, you know, friend. You're amazing. I said, what do I do but bring joy to millions? Oh, God.

Elizabeth Day (13:21)

I mean, one of the things that I loved finding out when I was researching for this interview is that Kate is very much part of your life with Felicity in the. There are photographs around. You talk about her a lot, and I think that's a very beautiful thing. And it must have, at points, been potentially a tricky dynamic to navigate, that when you get remarried, did you feel at any level guilty for, quote, unquote, moving on?

Stanley Tucci (13:49)

Oh, my God, yes. Terribly guilty, Yeah. I mean, for a long time, it was not easy for Felicity. You know, it was very hard at first. Kids will be really accepting, and then they'll start to push away, and then one will be accepting and one won't be and one be. And I was the same. I mean, I'd be so sort of, you know, loving and affectionate, and then I would pull away because I would feel guilty I felt strange going away for the first time on vacation without Kate. Everything started to feel strange. But Felicity was so amazingly patient and loving to both me and the kids that she taught us that you don't have to feel bad, it's okay, and she's always a part of your life. But things have to move forward. You can remember the person but you can't romanticize the person. And that is really the key thing. And there were family members who did that and that's just not good. It's not healthy. But Felicity was amazing and in so many ways she's like Kate. She's very loving, is a great listener, very patient, thinks before she speaks, unlike her husband. And it's just an amazing stepmom, amazing mom and brilliant at what she does.

Elizabeth Day (15:01)

So wonderful hearing you talk about both Felicity and Kate, and I can't thank you enough for being so generous as to talk about that. I know it will help a great many people.

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Elizabeth Day (16:20)

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Elizabeth Day (16:50)

And there are many things that you know about in Rosie Frost, and one of them, you write very movingly about her mom dying.

Geri Halliwell Horner (16:58)

Yeah.

Elizabeth Day (16:58)

And for you, it was your dad that of course, formative age. Do you mind my asking how much of that you brought into the text and did you find it cathartic?

Geri Halliwell Horner (17:09)

It's funny because, I mean, grief is a strange thing. And death, it's gonna happen to all of us at some point in our life. We just don't know when. And what occurred to me when I was younger, that I didn't have the tools to talk about it. And I was just sort of left with this stone cold feeling of I didn't want to make anyone feel awkward, so I didn't have the right tools to express how I was feeling. And also, you know, that British stiff upper lip. And, you know, whereas in the east, they used to talk about it, they're much more. But it also gave me a sense of my own mortality. I wanted to put that in the narrative very subtly. So if you don't care about looking at that, you won't. But it's there if you want it. So if anybody's, you know, having grief, let's look what it looks like, you know, examine it. And Rosie is going through that, not perfectly, she's quite angry. It can make you angry or cold, detached. So I wanted to put that in there. And the other thing that was really interesting, and I didn't know I did it until I finished it. Right. So I wrote the prologue and the first chapter last. The publisher, Penguin, the American, because I had two publishers, American and British, and they're both amazing. But she said to me, can you just give a bit more backstory of Rosie before she gets there? You know, before she gets to Bloodstone island and where she came from.

Elizabeth Day (18:30)

And that's where the school island.

Geri Halliwell Horner (18:32)

Yeah, Bloodstone island is this school. And we can talk about it in a minute. But before she gets there, she's at a different school, just an ordinary school. And you see what happens to her, how she gets pulled out of school in the middle of a class and told that her mother is dead. That's what happened to me. But it was my father that was dead. And I was studying hamnet at the time. And after I finished it, and it wasn't until I looked back, I realized I've written about what I know, my own experience. I thought, oh, my God, it's really interesting. That was naturally, I think we turn our poop to fertilizer, so to speak.

Elizabeth Day (19:06)

Yes. I thought you're going to say pain into art, but I much prefer poop into fertilizer.

Geri Halliwell Horner (19:11)

Yes. Then it's useful.

Elizabeth Day (19:12)

Yes.

Geri Halliwell Horner (19:13)

Everything is copy.

Elizabeth Day (19:15)

Everything is copy.

Geri Halliwell Horner (19:16)

Everything is copy.

Elizabeth Day (19:17)

And everything, I believe, can have meaning, that you can be in control of the meaning that you attach to something in the fullness of time. I'm so sorry, first of all, that you went through that experience. If you weren't talking about it, how

Geri Halliwell Horner (19:31)

did you get through the grief?

Elizabeth Day (19:32)

And what advice would you give now to anyone who might be listening, who is in the depths of that kind of.

Geri Halliwell Horner (19:38)

I just. Grief is a very strange thing. And everyone. I don't have the perfect answer, that's for sure. What I. My experience is time. And it sounds like a cliche, but it's true. It doesn't make it better, but it makes it easier. And just sharing, I think, with people that might know what you're going through, I think that's helpful. That's what I would say, is you're not alone.

Elizabeth Day (20:03)

Did your dad die before you?

Geri Halliwell Horner (20:06)

Yes. And I feel. And this is the other thing, there's one upside of losing a parent when you're young. And I call it death energy. I don't think I would be as driven as I was if I didn't understand the value of life. And I think losing a parent, not only are you losing someone, but you suddenly become aware of your own mortality. Because before then you think, oh, I've got my parents between me and my own death. Do you know what I mean? Or even if I'm, you know, whatever I do, I know my parents there. And so when that is removed, you're suddenly staring in the face of your own whatever's in front of you and the unknown. Yeah, I call it death energy. It's like a gas in my tank. I've got to get on with life.

Elizabeth Day (20:49)

What do you think he would have made of it?

Geri Halliwell Horner (20:51)

It's interesting because I think, you know, my father was. He was into, like, old Hollywood. He introduced me so much music and literature and, you know, he tried to make me, like, into Shirley Temple when

Elizabeth Day (21:06)

I was a little girl.

Geri Halliwell Horner (21:07)

So, you know, I'm sure he'll be very, like, pleased. I used to think about him doing it for him but actually as I grew older, just time you say, okay, why am I doing it and who am I doing this for? It's like any job that anybody's doing. What are you doing it for and for whom and why?

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Stanley Tucci (22:02)

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