Ruth Wilson - Be Challenged By What Disgusts You

Summary

How To Fail With Elizabeth Day — Ruth Wilson: Be Challenged By What Disgusts You

Air date: November 26, 2025
Host: Elizabeth Day
Guest: Ruth Wilson
Podcast Description: Elizabeth Day explores personal and professional failures with celebrated guests, uncovering the lessons learned from setbacks and the value of vulnerability.

---

Episode Overview

In this deeply candid and often moving episode, award-winning actor Ruth Wilson joins Elizabeth Day to discuss three significant failures in her life: not getting into Oxford University, her experience running the London Marathon in honor of her father, and her long-standing difficulty trusting the creative process. Wilson reflects on the complexity of living honestly, the pressure of appearance in show business, the pain and beauty of family, and the significance of challenging oneself through discomfort—particularly through art that unsettles or disturbs.

---

Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. On Art, Discomfort, and the Power of Performance

• Theatre as Confrontation: Ruth recounts seeing Caryl Churchill’s controversial play Here We Go ([05:00]), which forced audiences to confront death and mortality. Many walked out, but Wilson was captivated:

  "No, we have to feel this. This is what's gonna happen to all of us." — Ruth Wilson [05:00]

• Art as Catalyst: She discusses the importance of art pushing people to think and feel, even if it’s uncomfortable:

  "Be challenged. What makes you scared? Be challenged by what disgusts you... Question why it disgusts you or why you're upset by it." — Ruth Wilson [06:19]

• Women Leading On-Screen: Wilson talks about the rarity and joy of starring with Emma Thompson in a female-driven crime thriller:

  "It's not two women talking about a man, you know, it's two women on a mission... and they're really funny and dry witted and complicated and petulant and childish. I mean, it's what we all are as humans." — Ruth Wilson [07:18]

• Learning from Emma Thompson:

  "She's got so much freedom and lightness to the way she works... It rubbed off on me during it." — Ruth Wilson [09:13]

2. On Appearance, Aging, and the Pressure of the Industry

• Ruth addresses the double standard and pressure for women in film to alter their appearance and the choice to age naturally:

  "It's really hard because the pressure is on. Everyone does it. Everyone does something to their face, and it's all available now more than ever... You make a choice... If I wasn't an actor... I don't think I'd think twice about the idea of having work done just because you have to look at your face." — Ruth Wilson [10:23]

3. Failure 1: Not Getting Into Oxford University

• Background: Ruth applied to Oxford, influenced by familial expectations and notable actors who had studied there.
• The Interview Mishap: She relied on unhelpful interview advice and felt her academic ambitions were disingenuous:

  "I did one of the worst interviews, I should think, ever." — Ruth Wilson [12:35]

• Secret Yearning for Acting: Wilson concealed her real ambitions due to family norms and fear of pursuing a creative path ([15:34]).
• The Grandfather Connection: Discovering her grandfather's double life as a writer and spy made her creative inclinations make sense:

  "We live in alternative universes... I could see where the capacity of imagination had come from and where that creative imagination had come from." — Ruth Wilson [17:08]

• Lesson Learned: The experience taught her to trust her instincts and be honest with herself about her desires ([18:17]).

4. Failure 2: The London Marathon and Her Father

• Motivation: Ruth ran the marathon for Alzheimer's Research in honor of her father, who ran the first London Marathon and was diagnosed with Alzheimer's ([27:39]).
• The Day: She grappled with competitive family dynamics, personal physical limits, and her expectation of a triumphant finish.
• Unexpected Challenge: Her leg failed five miles from the finish, but her brother joined her to walk the final stretch ([29:20]).
• Transformative Moment: The planned moment of solitary glory transformed into a lesson about presence, expectations, and familial love:

  “Slowly, in that... as we walked the last four miles, five miles, sort of my expectation of what the outcome was supposed to be sort of gradually disappeared... I just was like, okay, just. You're in the moment now and this is what's important.” — Ruth Wilson [30:53]

• On Alzheimer's: Ruth shares a personal and moving portrait of her father’s decline and her mother’s resilience, and advocates for research and awareness ([33:16]):

  "It's a cruel disease and slowly takes the life away from someone." [33:16]

5. Failure 3: Trusting the Creative Process

• Recurring Self-Doubt: Despite her success, Ruth continually feels she will fail mid-project and obsessively questions her choices after the fact ([37:00]):

  "I consistently think it's gonna be an absolute failure and think that I'm an absolute failure in it... it's not reality, actually." — Ruth Wilson [37:00]

• Neurotic Habits: She describes the post-filming "head-eating" process and the realization that worrying about past performances only fills emptiness and wastes time ([40:27]).

• Exposure to One’s Own Image: Wilson shares the surreal discomfort of watching herself on screen, especially on a large scale ([41:41]):

  "I remember first watching, like, myself from the back of my head on a screen because I was like, God, I never see the back of myself. That's how I walk. Oh, God." — Ruth Wilson [41:41]

• Best and Worst Creative Experiences:

  • Worst: The Little Stranger, plagued by self-consciousness, but ironically producing one of her better performances ([43:42]).
  • Best: Participating in a 24-hour play that required total presence and connection with a parade of strangers:

    "I was so full of love by the end of it. Cause I was like, people are endlessly fascinating and surprising... you can find connection with anyone." — Ruth Wilson [45:08]

---

Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• "Be challenged. What makes you scared? Be challenged by what disgusts you." — Ruth Wilson [06:19]
• "I did one of the worst interviews, I should think, ever." — Ruth Wilson [12:35]
• "I just assumed I'd be able to do it... And I did do it. Even now I'm talking like it was a disappointment. It's like I did get round. It's like 26 miles. It's intense." — Ruth Wilson [30:52]
• "I've put myself through quite difficult things... and my body's not the thing that gives up." — Ruth Wilson [29:47]
• "I consistently think it's gonna be an absolute failure... it's not reality, actually." — Ruth Wilson [37:00]
• "I could see where the capacity of imagination had come from and where that creative imagination had come from." — Ruth Wilson [17:08]
• "People are endlessly fascinating and surprising... you can find connection with anyone." — Ruth Wilson [45:08]

---

Timestamps for Major Segments

| Timestamp | Segment/Event | |-----------|---------------------------------------------------------------------| | 04:48 | Ruth Wilson joins; discussion on challenging art, Here We Go | | 07:18 | Working with Emma Thompson; views on female-led thrillers | | 10:23 | Appearance, aging, and industry expectations | | 11:46 | Failure 1: Not getting into Oxford | | 13:28 | The infamous Oxford interview and hiding her dreams | | 17:08 | Family lineage, the creative gene | | 18:17 | Lessons from the Oxford experience | | 27:39 | Failure 2: The London Marathon, her father, and Alzheimer’s | | 30:52 | Walking the final miles—with her brother—and the shift in mindset | | 33:16 | Commentary on Alzheimer’s impact, family, and advocacy | | 36:28 | Failure 3: Struggling to trust the creative process | | 41:41 | The discomfort of watching oneself | | 43:42 | Best and worst creative experiences: The Little Stranger & 24-hour play | | 45:08 | Closing reflections on connection and creativity |

---

Episode Tone and Takeaways

Ruth Wilson is open, generous, and self-reflective, speaking candidly about perfectionism and self-doubt even amidst great professional acclaim. The conversation is laced with humor, vulnerability, and an unmistakable drive to grow through discomfort. Listeners are left with the reminder that failure—whether large or small, public or private—can be a profound source of learning, empathy, and authentic connection.

---

For listeners seeking honest perspectives on success, learning, and creativity, this episode offers profound insights into the power of vulnerability and embracing what challenges or unsettles us.

Transcript

[Ruth Wilson]

I remember first watching myself from the back of my head on a screen because I was like, God, I never see the back of myself. That's how I walk. If I wasn't an actor, I wouldn't. I don't think I'd think twice about the idea of having work done just because you have to look at your face. Your face is on a poster, it's on a lens, and you're pumped up to this size.

[Elizabeth Day]

Welcome to how to Fail, the podcast that delves underneath the surface of success to discover how our failures really shape us. Before we get into this conversation, please be sure to tap the subscribe button because it really helps other people find us and it means that you will never miss a single episode. This episode is brought to you by Squarespace, the all in one website platform for entrepreneurs to stand out and succeed online. Squarespace is here to support entrepreneurship and help turn your passion into a business. It does so with cutting edge design, seamless checkout for customers, with simple but powerful payment tools. It helps you turn leads into clients, allowing you to grow and communicate with your audience. Their customers include the Dusty Knuckle Bakery and Cafe in East London. And if you know, you know their bread is amazing. They're a Squarespace customer and a brilliant example of how to do it right. Their training program provides young people who've been excluded by society with the basic skills for work and life. Go check them out. Head to squarespace.com fail10 for a free trial and when you're ready to launch, use offer code FAIL10. That's FAIL10 to save 10% off your first purchase of a website or domain.

[Jonathan Van Ness]

Hey everybody, it's Jonathan Van Ness from Getting Better with Jonathan Van Ness. If you care about protecting real religious freedom for people of all religions and for people who don't want to believe in any religion, there is an event that's happening for you. I need it on your radar. The Summit for Religious freedom, or the SRF pronounced sir. It's three days of connection, strategy and action in Washington, D.C. and online, April 25th to 27th. You'll hear from authors, lawyers and policymakers. Join an organizing institute to level up your skills and even do a hill day to meet your representatives and tell them why church state separation matters. You guys, this isn't just a conference. It's a community on the move. If you're looking for a way to get off the sidelines and into this fight of pushing back against Christian nationalism and building a future where LGBTQ rights, reproductive freedom, and strong public schools are protected. This is for you. This is a movement for big change and collaboration that strengthens our democracy, protects public schools, reproductive and LGBTQ rights, and more. Come, learn, organize and leave with a plan and friends. You can learn more@the srf.org the actor.

[Elizabeth Day]

Ruth Wilson has made a habit of tackling psychologically demanding roles since her 2006 breakout in the BBC miniseries Jane Eyre, a role she was cast in straight out of drama school. Wilson has garnered awards and critical acclaim for her portrayals of complex women. Whether it's a mother grieving the loss of her child in the Affair, a sociopathic research scientist in Luther, a villain in his Dark Materials, or whether it's Wilson's stellar stage performances as Hedda Gabler, Anna Christie or Cordelia in King Lear, she brings a fierce intelligence and inner emotion to each role. Along the way, she's been awarded two Oliviers, a Golden Globe and an MBE. She was raised in Shepparton, Surrey, the youngest of four and the only daughter of Nigel, an investment banker, and Mary, who retrained as a probation officer after raising her children at her all girls Catholic School. The 11 year old Wilson was a nascent feminist who often questioned authority, at one time taking in a Facts of Life book and informing the nuns that their pupils absolutely needed sex education. There were no actors in Wilson's family, or so she thought until her grandmother died and it emerged that Wilson's grandfather Alexander had been a bigamist and a spy. Some hitherto unknown relatives emerged. It was a story that she later portrayed on screen in 2018. Now Wilson is back with Apple TVs down Cemetery Road, based on novels by Mick Herron, who also wrote Slow Horses. Wilson stars opposite Emma Thompson as an art restorer swept up in a high stakes crime drama. I think it's important to face things you don't want to see, wilson says about acting, because only then will you grow. Only then will you live properly. Ruth Wilson, welcome to how to Fail.

[Ruth Wilson]

Thank you for having me.

[Elizabeth Day]

That quote you gave about a specific play that you saw, it was Caryl Churchill's play. Here we go.

[Ruth Wilson]

I was wondering where that came from. Yes, yes.

[Elizabeth Day]

Which you describe as a life changing experience.

[Ruth Wilson]

Yeah, it was the most. It's one, you know, you go to plays sometimes and it's when they have a huge effect on you and you think, okay, this is why theatre is important or why it can make such an impression on you. And this was a play written by Caryl Churchill. It got like one stars across the board. I thought it was the Most incredible thing I'd ever seen. It was about death really. It was about facing death and the end of life. And it was three sort of acts. And the first act was a group of people at a funeral talking about this person who died. And then individually they all stood out and looked out at the audience and said when their time to die was. And it was just the most uncomfortable thing to watch. People were walking out of the theater cause it was horrible. It was so awkward. It's like painful. But I was like, this is amazing. It's making me feel so many things. And I'm watching people walk out cause they can't bear it. So I was like, wow. No, we have to feel this. This is what's gonna happen to all of us.

[Elizabeth Day]

I thought it that analysis of the power of art to confront. Given that the young Ruth Wilson was confronting her nuns about, you know, teaching sex education. Is that something that drives you the need to challenge whoever is watching?

[Ruth Wilson]

Yeah, I think so. I think there's a sense of, come on, think, feel. You know, only then will you be able to sort of reflect and learn or have empathy or you know, move forward. And I don't know, I think that's what we do as humans. It's like our gift as a human is to be able to think and feel. So do it and be challenged. Be challenged. What makes you scared? Be challenged by what disgusts you. Be challenged by those things. Question why it disgusts you or why you're upset by it.

[Elizabeth Day]

And in Down Cemetery Road, you play this character who feels she's being lied to and wants to call that out. And part of what I loved about it was seeing you and Emma Thompson, these two powerhouses, these two female powerhouses. And it struck me how rare that still is.

[Ruth Wilson]

Yeah, it is very rare. And in a show like this as well, which is a sort of crime thriller, it's not two women talking about a man, you know, it's two women on a mission being shot at and on boats and planes and automobiles and everything else. And they're really funny and dry witted and complicated and petulant and childish. And I mean, it's what we all are as humans. So it was a joy to do that and to work with her and find some sort of fun dynamic between the two of us. It's really rare, really rare in the space we're in. And a shame that it's still so rare, actually.

[Elizabeth Day]

I know now that Tess Daley and Claudia Winkelman are leaving strictly, what are we gonna do? It's you and Emma.

[Ruth Wilson]

Oh, my God. In Natural Heirs. In Natural Heirs. Hey, bring it on.

[Elizabeth Day]

BBC.

[Ruth Wilson]

We're ready now.

[Elizabeth Day]

It's not the first time you've acted in the same project as Emma, but I think it's the first time you've seen each other on set because you were in Saving Mr. Banks, where you played her mother.

[Ruth Wilson]

I played her mother, strangely. I mean, yeah. I mean, I've aged well, but, no, I played her mom. I never had a scene with her. I was kind of her depressed mother. And we met on the red carpet afterwards. So this is not. You know, that was just a. We had a photo opportunity together, really, for that. So, yeah, this. We actually get to play with each other. And it was. The script is so good because it's not like there's one obvious lead. I mean, she's the sort of more bolshy, older, wisecracking character, but my character's quite surprising and reckless. And so I think we kept surprising each other and the writing kept surprising us and who we were playing. So it was really fun to do because we kept sort of taking the lead from each other or undercutting each other, and it leads to a really fun dynamic.

[Elizabeth Day]

Do you think you've learned from watching her work?

[Ruth Wilson]

Yes. She's so free and easy and throws everything away and doesn't seem to care about any. Like, I was like, wow, she just. She's got so much freedom and lightness to the way she works. And I was like, that's really. I want to do more of that. So it rubbed off on me during it. And certainly for a piece like this, it's not, you know, it's not, like, really intense emotional material. So just have fun with it. Throw it away. And she's. There's a lightness of touch with her, which I think's really special. And then she can switch on the emotional depth when she needs it.

[Elizabeth Day]

We'll get onto your relationship with the creative process later because it pertains to one of your failures. But before we do, I also wanted to ask you about the fact that you and Emma are, by any token, two phenomenally beautiful women. And you are also women in the Hollywood public eye who have aged naturally. And again, it struck me how rare that is to see and what an act of bravery it is when it shouldn't be.

[Ruth Wilson]

It's really hard because the pressure is on. Everyone does it. Everyone does something to their face, and it's all available now more than ever. It's sort of, you know, you either just you either choose to sort of join your peers and put stuff in your face and make yourself look. I don't think it makes you look younger, it just makes you look like you've had stuff done. Like, if you look at people who are 60, 70, and someone's had work and someone hasn't, they don't really look different ages. They just look like someone's had work and someone hasn't had work. But so it does feel like you have. You make a choice and it's sort of. I don't know, it's difficult in my industry. If I wasn't an actor, I wouldn't. I don't think I'd think twice about the idea of having work done just because you have to look at your face. Your face is on a poster, it's on a lens, and you're pumped up to this size. Your face is made bigger in a cinema screen. You know, you're like, ugh. You can see yourself aging.

[Elizabeth Day]

Let's get into your failures. Because you did this very generous thing. You gave me your failures, the sort of one sentence, failures. And then yesterday I got a lot. This is extraordinary essay that I said beforehand. I was like, this has done my work for me.

[Ruth Wilson]

I thought I'd give it more context, a little way of me processing what I was thinking about.

[Elizabeth Day]

Your first failure is your failure to get into Oxford University, which for an overthinking perfectionist, I imagine was tricky. But tell me first of all, why you applied or who was it who told you that you should.

[Ruth Wilson]

Yeah, so I was thinking about this as like a sort of superficial failure, because it's not something I hold a lot to now and don't think I really did at the time. But it was interesting, sort of why exactly why I applied and what it meant to me. I did history at. I was at Esher College at this point. I'd left the convent. I'd gone to Esher College. I spent two years there. I loved it. It was my best years of academia. Like, I was doing classics, theater studies and history. I got on really well with the teachers. I adored it. But I was harboring a secret desire to act. My theatre studies teacher had told me, you should give it a go, but I never mentioned it to anyone. I thought it was a complete pipe dream. I didn't believe it would really be possible, but I was harboring this secret desire. So I thought, okay, I'll go to university and I'll do acting on the side. And I didn't know how to get into Acting. So I was like, I just, you know. And someone. My history teacher said, you should apply to Oxford. And I'm like, yeah, okay. Actually, I know a lot of actors, including Emma, who went to Cambridge, but a lot of actors who I admire, they got into acting by going to Oxbridge. I thought, that's a way to get into acting completely, putting the academia side aside and thinking I could even do that. So I thought, yeah, okay, I'll apply. And I did one of the worst interviews, I should think, ever.

[Elizabeth Day]

Why was it so bad?

[Ruth Wilson]

My history teacher had told me I'd done some prep with him. And he told me, okay, if they come up with a subject that we haven't studied, just tell them you haven't done that. We haven't studied that. And I found myself saying that over and over again in the interview. And I think it was a way of me not answering the question, or if I didn't know the answer, I'd just go to sort of response. But I found myself saying it over and over again, and they're looking more and more disappointed in front of me. And then there was another part of the interview. You had two interviews over a weekend. And the other interview was with this guy. It was going quite well. And then he asked me, so, where do you live? And I said, I live in Shepparton. He said, what kind of house do you live in? And I said, well, it's an old Victorian house. He said, okay, so who do you think lived there when it was first built? And I was like, mind blank. And I go, that's my clown a bit. I just go completely blank. And I said, oh, actually, it is interesting because on the side of the wall of a house, people have scratched in their initials who've lived at this house? And he said, well, oh, right. So who lived there? And of course, I hadn't ever looked into who those initials were. I didn't know who they were at all. Had showed no curiosity about who had lived in the house. So I think they were like, okay, she's definitely not, you know, this isn't someone we want. She's got no interest in history whatsoever. And it was kind of. I think it was an, you know, disingenuous reason as to why I wanted to go to Oxford. I didn't care about the academia. I wasn't really interested in studying history. I love history, but wasn't that interested in it. And I was sort of. That was revealed in the interviews, really. And I wasn't. My dad had gone to Oxford as Well, so I kind of felt maybe I should follow his footsteps, but I wasn't confident enough in saying what I really wanted to do at that point.

[Elizabeth Day]

And I'm so interested that you felt you shouldn't be open about your desire to act. Why was that, do you think?

[Ruth Wilson]

I think from where I grew up, no one in my family had gone into acting. No one in my family was an artist of any sort of note. We all did sport and we all did normal subjects. We were kind of very conventional. The idea of going into acting seemed completely absurd. And I sort of felt it didn't come from anywhere. I didn't feel like there was a path that I could follow. So I felt a bit silly. I thought everyone had those pipe dreams. Everyone wanted to be famous or sing, you know, a singer or an actor or. And so I just thought maybe this is a sort of silly pipe dream that I have. So I had to. I was pursuing it really secretly. And it was only when I went to. I went to university and did study history at Nottingham, where the stakes weren't so high, in a way. And there I found a really amazing community of friends who are now very successful in the industry. But we all did acting in this little theatre society. And that's where I directed for the first time, and we produced plays and we took a play to Edinburgh and New York and all sorts. And it was where I got to sort of explore my passion in a safe environment. And it was where I decided, okay, I've really got to give this a go.

[Elizabeth Day]

And that parallel I drew between you and your grandfather in the introduction is actually a parallel that you've drawn.

[Ruth Wilson]

So it's.

[Elizabeth Day]

Rather than my projecting what I believe to be. But do you tell me more about that? Because then did that make sense of your desire to play other parts?

[Ruth Wilson]

Completely. I mean, my grandfather was a fantasist. I mean, he. He wrote 27 spy novels and he had numerous wives and lots of kids and Very odd guy. He was a liar, you know, and that's. I mean, actors, I don't really think they're liars, actually. Actors, they're sort of. We live in alternative universes, though. And so I could see where the capacity of imagination had come from and where that creative imagination had come from. And it was that line of the family which was really surprising to me because my dad is quite straight, you know, like you said, he worked in the banking and in London and had gone to Oxford and was quite a sort of conventional life. So it did make sense to me. Suddenly That I had this other very imaginative, creative side of the family. And his other sons from different families. One had been a jobbing actor his whole life. One had written poetry. So I was like, oh, okay. We do have a creative strand in the family. It's not completely mad that I've gone into this world.

[Elizabeth Day]

And what do you think the overall lesson is of this failure? Reflecting back on it?

[Ruth Wilson]

I don't know. I mean, part of me thinks that's why I think it's a bit of a superficial failure in a way. It's like. I don't. I think it was more about trusting instinct. Like, I knew it didn't feel. I didn't feel that Oxford. I would thrive at Oxford. I knew that. I knew going there. It was like, not really me. I felt flattered by people saying, you should give it a go. I felt like, oh, maybe I should carry on, do what my dad did. Maybe this is my way into acting. The actual. You know, I didn't have any real desire to be at Oxford doing history at all. So it felt disingenuous. I felt like. And when I went to Nottingham, I felt instantly at ease there. So I suppose it's something about instinct. Maybe it's about instinctive choices and that I wasn't admitting to really what I wanted or what I felt was true. And it was revealed to me quite quickly.

[Elizabeth Day]

There's an interest.

[Ruth Wilson]

Yeah. By those interviewers. Yeah.

[Elizabeth Day]

I was like, okay, there's an interesting interplay here between truth telling and lying.

[Ruth Wilson]

Yeah.

[Elizabeth Day]

Because you describe your grandfather as a liar and yet had this imaginative.

[Ruth Wilson]

Yes.

[Elizabeth Day]

Fantastical bent. And then he said, I don't think actors are liars. And I agree with you.

[Ruth Wilson]

I don't think they are.

[Elizabeth Day]

I think they're truth tellers and they use performance as a vehicle for telling that truth.

[Ruth Wilson]

Yes.

[Elizabeth Day]

And this failure is all about you understanding the truth of yourself, really.

[Ruth Wilson]

Yes. Yeah. And it was a long journey of, like, working out being honest with yourself about what you really want and having the confidence to say it. And I think that was also for me. It took me a long time to gain the confidence of my. My truth and my instinct. And I think that whole interview, I was lying all around. I wasn't lying. I was sort of trying to cover. And, like, even the way I reacted, he asked me about, who do you think lived in the house? And I just. Rather than sort of coming up with some or even saying, I don't know, actually, I'm not sure. I was like, oh, you know, there's something on the side, I would keep trying to sort of lie my way out of something or bullshit my way out.

[Elizabeth Day]

And I think, you know, we're similar ages.

[Ruth Wilson]

Yeah.

[Elizabeth Day]

And I think also for women of our generation, we're in that interesting spot between first wave feminism and.

[Ruth Wilson]

Yeah, we're caught between.

[Elizabeth Day]

Exactly. And I also experienced that, that sort of desire to please others and to perform to please others, leading me further and further away from my actual self.

[Ruth Wilson]

Yes.

[Elizabeth Day]

And then there was a big implosion in my life. And then I was like, oh, right, now I get it. Now I have an opportunity to live authentically.

[Ruth Wilson]

Ye.

[Elizabeth Day]

When do you think that happened for you? Was it this Oxford experience?

[Ruth Wilson]

No, I mean, I think Nottingham made me. I mean, when I was there, I was with sort of a group of great people, like minded people, and I found my community. I think it was also that it was like you were surrounded by people that perhaps were more confident in their desires. And it was similar to your. Do you know what I mean? You sort of found people that also were honest about what they wanted to do. And lots of them, we'd done all these plays together and lots of them said, okay, I'm gonna go to drama school. And I was like, oh, they're gonna. Yeah, I fucking wanna go to drama school. You know? And I think it was that. That was the sort of moment of clarity for me. And I gave myself two years to get a job. I was like, okay, I. If they don't want me, I won't. I'll do something else.

[Elizabeth Day]

And you went straight into Jane Eyre.

[Ruth Wilson]

It was my second job. Yeah. And it was. It's almost 20 years ago now. Wow, 20 years next. Yeah.

[Elizabeth Day]

I just wonder if you'll indulge me because I just want to say that the affair.

[Ruth Wilson]

Yes.

[Elizabeth Day]

Particularly the first season.

[Ruth Wilson]

Yes.

[Elizabeth Day]

Changed how I thought about storytelling in the most extraordinary way. And, you know, I also write books and it really, like, helped me with plot and everything. Yeah, it was amazing. You were amazing. What was it like that first season? Did you feel you were doing something really special?

[Ruth Wilson]

I don't think we ever knew it was gonna be a massive hit or it was gonna work. You never do quite. But I knew it was fun to do and I was really. I loved the challenge of it. And then, of course, it came out and it. Yeah. You know, you sign on to however many seasons. I remember Dominic and I at the Golden Globes, you know, won the Golden Globe and we were told. Everyone was so shocked because it just come out. And I remember looking at him and going, four more. Five more years. We've got five more years now.

[Elizabeth Day]

This is Dominic West.

[Ruth Wilson]

Dominic West. Five more years. Shit. Are we ready for five more years? But it was amazing and the cast were amazing and it was really, like you say, it's such an interesting, obvious way of writing material or putting a story out there that hadn't been done often. And often that's the best. Always a simple approach to something which it seems obvious is the best way.

[Elizabeth Day]

You're very good at accents, so obviously you nailed an American accent for the Affair, to the surprise of many people who would then meet you in the street and be like, hang on a second. But you also portrayed Emily Maitless and you nailed her voice.

[Ruth Wilson]

Really? Yeah. No, I loved playing her. That was great fun.

[Elizabeth Day]

She's great.

[Ruth Wilson]

She's great. And I mean, what I love, she just. I was like, she loves being Emily Maitless. I mean, but I was like, I love playing her for that. There was sort of. She's fearless and she. I mean, she does have doubts, but not many. I was like, wow, you're amazing. And I loved her hair. As soon as I put the blonde wig on and put my contact lenses in and put the voice on, then I was just Emily and her big boots. And I loved playing her.

[Elizabeth Day]

She lent you the original jacket from the Prince Andrew.

[Ruth Wilson]

She did. And her handbag, which was covered, you know, it's like a really expensive handbag she's had for years. And inside, it's all got ink, pen ink on the inside. I was gonna put my name in there. Ruth was here, which I'm tempted to do.

[Elizabeth Day]

I'm sort of hesitant to ask you this because I don't want to conflate the acting with the real life shenanigans. Are you following what's happening with Prince Andrew? Do you have a certain perspective? Because you had to get into that mode.

[Ruth Wilson]

You're more. I mean, I have more interest. I've got a certain perspective. But because I've watched that interview. I mean, I've watched that interview hundreds of times. It's like I've probably watched it more than. Well, Gillian Anderson has probably watched an equal amount of me and Michael Sheen, but it was. Yeah. So I sort of have an understanding of how the interview came about. And so I do. I am more interested, I suppose, in it, whether I have more insight. I don't know. Emily. It was really interesting. And Emily's so interesting there because she's a journalist and you're probably trained in the same way as that you sometimes are trained not to have opinions. You know, you're trained to sort of be able to take every point of view. And so even if I'd ask Emily quite direct questions, she would never give me a straight opinion. It would be, well, you know, it was always sort of around that answer. So it was really fascinating being inside it. And it's continuing to reveal. I mean, there's gonna be more that comes out. I'm sure that hasn't come out yet. And one thing that was really this is where I go sort of art does matter is that we did that piece. And Virginia Giuffre watched the show and she's mentioned it in her book. And she the speech that Emily gives or my character gives in the third episode, which is about sort of how women have to keep the victim has to keep telling their story. That really resonated with her. And she's quoted that speech word for word in her book that it was something that she found she did feel seen or felt validated or understood at least. So I feel very proud that she felt that from our show, really.

[Jonathan Van Ness]

Extra value meals are back. That means 10 tender juicy McNuggets and medium fries and a drink are just $8 only at McDonald's for a limited time only. Prices and participation may vary. Prices may be higher in Hawaii, Alaska and California. And for delivery.

[Marshall's Advertiser]

When it comes to gifting, everyone on your list deserves something special. Luckily, Marshall's buyers travel far and wide, hustling for great deals and amazing gifts.

[Ruth Wilson]

So you don't have to.

[Marshall's Advertiser]

That means your mom gets that cashmere sweater, your best friend that Italian leather bag. Your co workers unwrap their favorite beauty brands and your nephews the coolest new toys.

[Ruth Wilson]

Go ahead.

[Marshall's Advertiser]

A price is this good, you can grab something for yourself too. Marshalls, we get the deal. You give the good stuff. Shop [e-mail] or find a store near you.

[Ford BlueCruise Advertiser]

Ford Bluecruise Hands free. Highway driving takes the work out of being behind the wheel, allowing you to relax and reconnect while also staying in control. Enjoy the drive in blue cruise enabled vehicles like the F150 Explorer and Mustang Mach E. Available feature on equipped vehicles. Terms apply. Does not replace Safe driving. See ford.com bluecruise for more details.

[Elizabeth Day]

Your second failure is your failure to complete the London Marathon in 2024 in the way that you wanted now. But this has actually a very, very emotional resonance to it. Why were you running the marathon in the first place?

[Ruth Wilson]

So my dad was diagnosed with Alzheimer's. Probably well, about five years ago, he ran the very first London Marathon. So 1981. And my brother came up with the idea that we should all run it in honor of him and for the charity Alzheimer's research. And my sister in law had lost her mother to Alzheimer's and had run the marathon four times in her honour. So we're like, okay, yeah, we should do this. I mean, all of us were slightly reluctant. The idea of running a marathon. I'd never considered ever running a marathon in my life. It never crossed my mind. But we all decided to do it. We got places and then, yeah, then we. It became competitive, which is what happens in my family. It was quite interesting. It was fun. But the process of training, we're all on Strava, keeping up with each other, you know, being supportive, but also keeping tabs on each other, you know, and.

[Elizabeth Day]

Cause you're the only girl and the youngest. I guess there's an extra pressure.

[Ruth Wilson]

Yeah. I was like, I cannot let the team down. I'm not gonna. I have to. This is always the case. I have to keep up with them, do as well as them, if not better. And that's my own shit. Do you know what I mean? It's not anything they really put on me. But there's definitely a sense. It was, you know, a sense of competitive nature. My nephew was also doing it, which was lovely. So it was five of us all together. And then it sort of came to the day and it was. We all were running our separate races. I knew that everyone was trying to get a time and I knew that everyone was sort of trying to get under four hours. And it became about that. It was weirdly, in your own drive, running it. It was great. It was sort of amazing seeing everyone around, you know, all the amazing people running for different charities. Very moving. And I had in my head this idea I'd imagined me finishing. Like I'd imagined, oh, I'm gonna run across the line. I'm gonna be triumphant, crying, you know, it's all gonna be really emotional. I had this sort of idea of what it's gonna feel like at the end of the. And then of course, five miles before the end, my leg completely packed up. Like my shin and my calf just froze. I couldn't. I couldn't. I could hardly walk in it, really. I was limping around and I just thought, oh, I'm gonna have to walk the rest of it. I can't drop out, I've gotta walk. But. And I thought I was gonna have to do it on My own. And then one of my brothers who was behind me, he caught up with me and he was like, are you all right? I was like, no, I fucked my leg. Run on. Go on, save yourself. I was like, no, you go. And he's like, no, I'm walk with you. And he stopped and we walked the last four miles or five miles on together. And it was really emotional and it was really. At first, I was very disappointed. I was disappointed in myself. I was disappointed in my body. I've put myself through quite difficult things, like in my work, and my body's not the thing that gives up. Do you mean? It's like that always goes. Keeps going. So I was like, oh, wow, my body can't do this. I just assumed I'd be able to do it. I assumed I'd get round. And I did do it. Even now I'm talking like it was a disappointment. It's like I did get round. It's like 26 miles. It's intense. But he stopped and he walked with me. And, you know, slowly, in that. As we walked the last four miles, five miles, sort of my expectation of what the outcome was supposed to be sort of gradually disappeared. Like, I just was like, okay, just. You're in the moment now and this is what's important.

[Elizabeth Day]

And very emotional. Even in the retelling of it, I feel that emotion.

[Ruth Wilson]

Yeah.

[Elizabeth Day]

And there's something about presence in the moment that I imagine is particularly meaningful, given your father's condition.

[Ruth Wilson]

Yes.

[Elizabeth Day]

How is he?

[Ruth Wilson]

He's good. He's like, well, he's good. He's as well as he can be, in a way. I mean, my mum is extraordinary. And I think it really helps if you have a partner who takes care of you and makes you feel safe. If you're in that scenario, if you're losing. You know, she's so generous and she's so patient with him. And he is. I mean, he knows who we are. He can't remember what happened yesterday or what's happening tomorrow. He. Mum needs to take him to the bathroom and she needs to dress him every morning. He sort of has to be constantly reminded of where he is and what he's doing, and he can't really communicate. He's lost language. He occasionally is really lucid and very funny. He'll come up with a joke every now and then. So he's there, but he's sort of fading in and out.

[Elizabeth Day]

So much for sharing.

[Ruth Wilson]

Yeah.

[Elizabeth Day]

And thank you also for the work that you do for the Alzheimer's research. My Best friend lost her mother to Alzheimer's at the beginning of this year. And so I have a little perspective onto what that is like. And I think these conversations are so important. And it's one of those diseases that needs funding and needs more attention.

[Ruth Wilson]

It's one of our biggest killers. And no one, I think, because it's associated with old age, people dismiss it as just old age. You don't have to suffer from Alzheimer's. There are going to be. And there's so much big money being ploughed. Well, there's not enough. We need more money being plowed into research because. And there's things on the cusp of discovering, like, a cure or, you know, the real factors behind it. It's still. It's a bit like cancer in that it's very particular to the individual, so it manifests very differently for every person. And that's why it's so hard to find one cure for it. You have to kind of deal with a human who's having the experience. But it's cruel. It's a cruel disease and slowly takes the life away from someone. And, you know, I was looking at a photo of my dad the other day and I was like, ah, that's him. That was him. You know, he was always. He loved talking, he loved having big, massive chats about politics, history. We'd talk for hours, you know, we'd go. We'd be up till two in the morning chatting about what's going on in the world. And my dad and mom, you know, mum was a socialist, or she was, and dad was a Tory. So we'd have these great debates at home, always clash of politics and ideas. So it's sad seeing I can't have those conversations with him anymore.

[Elizabeth Day]

Well, I wish your father and your mother the best and we're thinking of them. And thank you so much for talking about it. Something so important.

[Ruth Wilson]

Yeah.

[State Farm Advertiser]

This episode is brought to you by State Farm. Listening to this podcast. Smart move. Being financially savvy. Smart move. Another smart move. Having State Farm help you create a competitive price when you choose to bundle home and auto bundling. Just another way to save with a personal price plan. Like a good neighbor, State Farm is there. Prices are based on rating plans that vary by state. Coverage options are selected by the customer. Availability, amount of discounts and savings and eligibility vary by state.

[Ruth Wilson]

We find Vecna, we end this once and for all together on November 26th. We have a plan. It's a bit insane. Everyone in. He knows where we are.

[Elizabeth Day]

Watch out.

[Ruth Wilson]

Get Ready for one last adventure. We stay true to ourselves, stay true.

[Elizabeth Day]

To our friends, no matter the cost.

[Jonathan Van Ness]

Found you.

[Ruth Wilson]

Stranger Things. The final season begins November 26th only on Netflix.

[eBay Advertiser]

This episode is brought to you by ebay. Before all the algorithm fed blah and the endless sea of dupes, shopping used to feel more fun. Find that feeling again on ebay. It's not mindless scrolling, it's a fashion pursuit. And when you score that rare Adidas collab or the Dior saddlebag you've been manifesting, it's a rush. Ebay has millions of pre loved finds from hundreds of brands backed by authenticity guarantee. EBay. Things people love.

[Elizabeth Day]

Your final failure. It's a little one. It's a small little failure.

[Ruth Wilson]

I looked at Malcolm Gladwell, I was like, jesus, his are really intense. I was like, okay, I've got to be a bit more serious.

[Elizabeth Day]

I'm glad you don't say Malcolm Gladwell's because he actually, his. One of his failures was failure to run.

[Ruth Wilson]

Like, oh, was it?

[Elizabeth Day]

Well, he started taking joy in the mediocrity of his running rather than being competitive with himself. Well, your final one is your failure to trust the creative process. Okay, yes, Deep dive.

[Ruth Wilson]

Yes. Okay, deep dive.

[Elizabeth Day]

So has that got any better with.

[Ruth Wilson]

All your many awards? No, funnily enough, no, it has. It has got better. I mean, this is just a broad one because I was thinking, okay, what is it that I do attempt and fail at consistently? And it is failure every single time. No matter how well a show goes down or whatever, how well a job does, and out in the world, in the process of it, I consistently think it's gonna be an absolute failure and think that I'm an absolute failure in it. And it's so weird. It's like, come on. And my partner's always like, okay, Ruth, you said this last time. And I'm like, no, but this time, this time, this time, no, it's different this time. He's like, you said that last time. So it's sort of some weird. I don't know, it just. I haven't sort of managed to trace a new pathway in my brain as to what the reality is. And I don't know why. I think it's like many reasons why, but it will manifest in a way of. If I'm doing a play in rehearsals, I have sort of, you know, massive crisis of faith in the material, in what I'm doing. If it's TV and film, and it happens more often than it's usually once the day is done, of Filming that, I'll go home, and on the day, the reality of the actual scene and doing it probably fine. Thought lots of different things, but I go home and eat my own head for hours, obsessing over what I should have done, what I didn't do well enough. It's completely pointless, and it's exhausting and it's boring for everyone around me. And it's. It's just. It's not reality, actually. So it's quite weird that I do it. And it's. I. I'm getting better. I am getting better, but it is a failure that I want to work on.

[Elizabeth Day]

It's so interesting, though, because as you're talking, I relate to everything you, albeit not with acting, but with a podcast interview. I will constantly be thinking, God, that I phrased that question so badly. And then when I listen back, I'm like, why didn't I ask this? Why did I gavel on? Why didn't I keep silence here? And again with writing books, I now understand a bit. Like your partner was saying, it's part of my process. Approximately two thirds of the way through, I will think I'm the worst writer who has ever committed pen to paper.

[Ruth Wilson]

Yeah. Yeah. I mean, I think it's obvious. Most people have this feeling. Yes.

[Elizabeth Day]

But I wonder if it's actually because you can see all the things that you could be doing. It makes you a better actor in a way.

[Ruth Wilson]

Yeah. Just very neurotic. I mean, when I look at Emma, I'm going. I'm not sure she's going home. And, you know, breaking down the scene.

[Elizabeth Day]

You know, have you asked her?

[Ruth Wilson]

I will ask her. I don't think she does. I mean, well, okay, I'll be surprised if she does. I think she has a beer and just has a great time. And there was one time recently I was like, okay, just stop. Think. Don't think that. And suddenly there was an empty blank, nothing. I was like, well, there's loads of things I could do now. I could work out. I could read a book. I could, you know, make dinner. I could do loads. Suddenly, actually, if I took that away, there's loads of things I could do. But there was a sort of emptiness. And I sort of thought, oh, this is a habit that I've taught myself to do that makes it feel more important than it actually is. Maybe, yeah.

[Elizabeth Day]

And also, maybe you're scared of the emptiness.

[Ruth Wilson]

I'm scared of the emptiness.

[Elizabeth Day]

So you're filling it.

[Ruth Wilson]

Exactly. I'm filling it with just really useless shit. Because, you know, we've done the scene, you can't go back to it. It's done, it's dusted. What's the point in worrying about it?

[Elizabeth Day]

Do you watch back your own work if it's on TV or film?

[Ruth Wilson]

I sometimes have to because I sometimes produce stuff. And so you're in the edit or you're getting sent stuff? Edits of it. And I'll maybe watch one episode just to see Tonalee or if it's working, I kind of hate it. Although there is a plan to watch the whole eight episodes of Down Cemetery Road on one day. Emma's idea. I blame her entirely and I'm dreading it. I don't. I'm not sure I'm gonna be able to make it through. I have to watch eight hours of myself. I mean, that's not fun. No, that's kind of like, oh, my God, why did I do that? Sometimes you're like, oh, that's okay. Oh, that really works. And then other times you're like, that's just. Oh, my God. And then you're like, I look old.

[Elizabeth Day]

Oh, Ruth, you look great and you're amazing.

[Ruth Wilson]

But can you imagine watching yourself?

[Elizabeth Day]

I can't. It's horrendous. Like, I struggle with this, having to be filmed for social media clips. I just now seek to try and disconnect myself. I'm like, that's just a version of myself. It's not actually how I look.

[Ruth Wilson]

No, exactly. That's all you have, all you can do. Yeah. I remember first watching, like, myself from the back of my head on a screen because I was like, God, I never see the back of myself. That's how I walk. Oh, God.

[Elizabeth Day]

You know, it's like suddenly I have it so weird. I just had this experience yesterday of seeing a film of me walking away and I was like, God, I'm so hunchback. He's like round shouldered, sort of lump and oaf walking on the street.

[Ruth Wilson]

It's awful.

[Elizabeth Day]

People know too much.

[Ruth Wilson]

Yeah.

[Elizabeth Day]

What is the worst creative experience you've ever had in this context? And then what's the best?

[Ruth Wilson]

Okay, so the worst. And I'm picking like, it was a job that actually, and this is another proof of why it's completely useless, is a film I did called the Little Stranger, which is like a film with Lenny Abrahamson directed it. And I think it was a particular point in my life, to be honest. I think I was sort of. It was like I was about 37 or something and probably going through some sort of transition, but very I was hypo self conscious for some reason. And I was doing. We all had I'd like fake teeth in. I was very playing a posh woman called Caroline Ayers. And it's another book, that adaptation of a book everyone was doing had like tashes on. And it was a little bit. And it wasn't comedic, it was very naturalistic. But there was something. I felt very uncomfortable and self conscious. And I felt like, Lenny, even though this isn't true, again, it's all in my brain. I felt like he wasn't happy with what I was doing or something. And I was deeply self conscious through the whole of that film. And I thought it was gonna be the end of my career or it was over and my poor boyfriend was getting it every night. I was like. And I felt so uncomfortable on set and being looked at. And then the actual final product is one of my better performances. And I was like, okay, I can't. I've got no control over this. This means even in discomfort, it. The camera reads something interesting.

[Elizabeth Day]

What's the best creative experience you've had?

[Ruth Wilson]

The 24 Hour Play, which was again, because I had no time to think anything. I couldn't the whole setup of that. So this was a 24 hour play I did on stage. I did one scene a hundred times with a hundred different men, most of which weren't actors. And I'd never met them before, never rehearsed the scene with them. It was like a 10, 15 minute scene every two hours. I'd have a break for 15 minutes and got to pee and eat some food. But I was on stage doing this repetitive thing. It's a kind of piece of performance art really, rather than straight theatre. But it was the most electric and just fulfilling thing I've ever done in my life. Because I couldn't plan anything. It was totally up to the gods who walked on. And it was about creating again being completely present, creating some sort of unique energy with that person opposite you. And they're all randoms, you know, I'd never met them before. And we had to dance, we had to kiss, we had to like sort of break up and, you know, leave each other and whatever. It was all very interesting. It was fascinating. I was so full of love by the end of it. Cause I was like, people are endlessly fascinating and surprising. They're never what you expect. And you can find connection with anyone.

[Elizabeth Day]

That's the most incredible note to end this on. I am such a firm believer in the power of connection. I have only connect tattooed on my wrist. It is everything.

[Ruth Wilson]

Yeah.

[Elizabeth Day]

And I'm so, so grateful to you, Ruth Wilson, for coming on to how to Fail.

[Ruth Wilson]

No, thank you for having me. It's been wonderful.

[Elizabeth Day]

Please do follow how to Fail to get new episodes as they land on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, Amazon Music, or wherever you get your podcasts. Please tell all your friends this is an Elizabeth Day and Sony Music Entertainment original podcast. Thank you so much for listening.