Tom Ellis - Fatherhood, Surrogacy and Years of Therapy

Summary

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How To Fail With Elizabeth Day

Episode: Tom Ellis – Fatherhood, Surrogacy and Years of Therapy
Date: September 3, 2025

Episode Overview

In this episode, Elizabeth Day sits down with beloved actor Tom Ellis—star of Netflix’s Lucifer and the BBC’s Miranda—to explore his relationship with failure and what it has taught him about family, career, self-acceptance, and growth. They discuss themes of fatherhood, surrogacy, therapy, and how being brought up as a Baptist minister’s son (and as a twin, among three sisters) influenced him. Tom candidly covers three key “failures”: his sports ambitions as a child, a fainting incident that nearly derailed his U.S. Green Card, and financial missteps as a student. Rich with humor, humility, and insight, this conversation takes listeners deep into the complexities of personal growth and resilience.

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Main Discussion Points & Insights

1. Spiritual Upbringing and Worldview ([03:40]–[05:09])

• Spiritual Beginnings: Tom discusses his religious background, being raised by a Baptist minister, and how this gave him both a sense of community and, ironically, put up obstacles (like missing sports on Sundays).
  • “When I was a kid growing up, I used to think it would be God and God's plan… As I’ve gotten older, I've taken a step back from organized religion, but I still hold on to a sense of spirituality and a sense that there's something much bigger that we can't put our finger on…” —Tom Ellis [03:57]
• Course Correction & Intuition:
  • Tom notes learning—often uncomfortably—to acknowledge when he’s on the wrong path, a skill honed with age and therapy.
  • "Acknowledging when I've been in the wrong place has been hard, but it's something that I've got better at." —Tom Ellis [04:42]

2. People Pleasing & Relationships ([05:17]–[06:38], [19:01]–[21:48])

• Scorpio Stereotypes and People Pleasing: Both Tom and Elizabeth are 1978-born Scorpios and admit to lifelong people-pleasing traits.
  • "It's been a lifetime’s work for me dismantling myself from that desire to keep everyone happy." —Elizabeth Day [05:17]
• Romantic Consequences: Tom links his people-pleasing with challenges in relationships, including a “savior complex,” gravitating toward those with hard upbringings, and difficulty knowing his own needs.
  • "To want someone, you know, I want you to like me is a voice in my head all the time in any environment I go into." —Tom Ellis [19:40]
  • "You open yourself up to people taking advantage of that sometimes…you can make yourself small without realizing it." —Tom Ellis [20:24]
• Therapy as a Lifeline: He credits years of therapy for greater self-understanding.
  • "I've had therapy, you know, on and off throughout my adult life...You're just basically asking someone to ask you the questions that you're scared to ask yourself." —Tom Ellis [21:10]

3. Career Highlights and Creative Influences ([05:47]–[11:54], [25:31]–[27:33])

• Working with Legends: Tom describes awe and intimidation on the Thursday Murder Club set with Helen Mirren, Ben Kingsley, Pierce Brosnan, and Celia Imrie.
  • "If you knew what was going on in my head right now, this is role reversal." —Tom Ellis [06:00]
• Missed Spielberg Moment: Tom and David Tennant found themselves starstruck—and slightly disappointed—not to be introduced to producer Steven Spielberg.
  • "Do you think anyone's gonna actually introduce us to him? And no one did." —Tom Ellis [07:05]
• Miranda Years: Tom recounts being cast as Gary after a chance audition, and the “against the grain” humor that resonated so widely.
  • "At the time… I was reading this script thinking, what on earth is this?...But I was—my interest was piqued." —Tom Ellis [25:47]

4. Fatherhood, Surrogacy & Family Dynamics ([08:07]–[11:45], [47:39]–[50:54])

• Surrogacy Experience: Tom reflects on the emotional journey of welcoming his youngest daughter, Dolly, via surrogate, calling the process “beautiful, viable, and filled with opinions.”
  • "Surrogacy is a really viable option for people where it's difficult to do it otherwise…We became very friendly with our surrogate. She was incredible...It seems like a very sort of strange relationship if you're not part of it, but when you are, it makes complete sense." —Tom Ellis [11:11]
  • "Childbirth and being a parent comes with lots of opinions from people. And I've been happier in life when I've closed my ears off to those opinions." —Tom Ellis [11:39]
• Step-Parenting and Representation: On his wife Megan Oppenheimer’s show, Second Wife, Tom is keen to showcase the nuances of step-parenting and remarriage.
  • "There are lots of…nuances about being a step parent, for example… while you’re going through them, a lot of the time you feel like you’re the only person who’s ever experienced this. And then of course…you start talking to people and realize it’s a very shared experience." —Tom Ellis [08:36]
• On Being a Dad: Tom finds parenting transformative.
  • "Love will conquer many, many things. Unconditional love is so powerful...True, unconditional love comes from [having children]…and it’s valuable and you want to cherish it." —Tom Ellis [47:48]

5. Failure 1 – Not Making It as a Sportsman ([11:54]–[13:21], [22:58]–[24:03])

• Passionate but Hampered: Tom loved football, cricket, rugby; but Sundays were for church, not sport, so his skills plateaued.
  • "I was very able, but I was never quite good enough to pursue it...And I was sort of resentful for it my whole sort of childhood…because I grew up in the church." —Tom Ellis [11:57]
• Learning From Letting Go: He channeled his disappointment into possible careers in sports physiotherapy, before stumbling into acting.
  • "I stumbled across acting at like the age of 17...I guess stumbling across acting was the real point of, like, ah, okay, this is what I should be doing." —Tom Ellis [23:17], [24:03]

6. Failure 2 – The Green Card Medical Fiasco ([27:35]–[31:23])

• Vasovagal Faints: A fainting episode while having blood drawn (and denying vulnerability on medical forms) led to a failed U.S. residency medical.
  • "I can feel it happening, and I'm like, I'm really sorry. I think I'm about to— (faints)" —Tom Ellis [28:55]
• Medical Systems Clash: UK doctors called him a “wuss”; US doctors explained vasovagal response and prescribed anti-anxiety meds for blood draws.
  • "What you're describing is a condition called vasovagal...it's a form of panic attack and your body decides something is really bad and your nervous system shuts down." —US Doctor, retold by Tom [30:07]
  • "I came in the following week...and I was absolutely fine." —Tom Ellis [31:17]
• Reflections on American Citizenship & Politics: Tom is candid, if wary, about now being a U.S. citizen in turbulent political times.
  • "I think I've become a U.S. citizen at the worst possible time, unfortunately. I love the states...But it also is the currency of how people value life. And people are prone to looking after number one first." —Tom Ellis [31:25]–[32:29]

7. Failure 3 – Student Finances Gone Wrong ([42:12]–[45:59])

• Financial Misadventure: Growing up without much money, Tom took out loans and was overwhelmed managing funds at drama school—ending up “living on a can of baked beans every two days.”
  • "It was the first time in my life that I had been given an overdraft...the perfect storm...It was like Brewster’s Millions, but without millions." —Tom Ellis [42:51]
  • "At the end of my first year I had a £1,500 overdraft—which back then was a lot—and I'd spent all of my loan." —Tom Ellis [44:07]
• Hard Work and Turnaround: He took three summer jobs to pay back debts, which acted as a personal wake-up call.
  • "That whole summer became a sort of a humbling process of, you can't allow this to happen. You've been given this opportunity, you've worked so hard for it. You need to buck your ideas up." —Tom Ellis [45:18]

8. Family, Twins, and Gender Dynamics ([16:16]–[19:01])

• Twin Experience: Born a record-breaking heavy twin (“Record Breakers” headline), Tom reflects on the curiosity and social skills that come with being part of a twin set in a public family.
  • "My dad said, you came out to an audience and you've never really stopped since then." —Tom Ellis [00:00], [16:49]
• Understanding Women: Growing up with three sisters made Tom comfortable with platonic friendships across genders.
  • "Growing up with sisters, do you think that helped you understand women?"
    "Definitely, yes, without a shadow of a doubt." —Elizabeth Day & Tom Ellis [18:15]–[18:19]

9. Marriage, Divorce, and Acceptance ([37:54]–[41:28])

• Flawed and Loved: Tom credits his relationship with Megan Oppenheimer with teaching him to be authentic and loved, imperfections included.
  • "What we love about each other is our imperfections. And I think that is a very different place to where I've been before in life." —Tom Ellis [39:24]
• Regret and Learning: On whether he has regrets:
  • "I think it's easy to say you regret things, but actually, no, I don't... I went into everything with great intentions and so, no, I don't have regrets." —Tom Ellis [41:28]

10. Cats & Comedic Relief ([48:42]–[50:49])

• Becoming a Cat Person: Although he was raised in a dog family, Tom became a cat lover thanks to Megan, even fostering kittens.
  • "Getting some kind of affection from your cat is one of the most rewarding things in the world. Yes, again, being a people pleaser and being a cat owner are two things that don’t work." —Tom Ellis [49:26], [49:52]
• Parenting & Pets: Their young daughter’s first word: "kitty."

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

| Timestamp | Speaker | Quote | |-----------|---------|-------| | [00:00] | Tom Ellis | "There was probably about 20 people gathered around my mum's vagina just when we were being born and my dad said you came out to an audience and you've never really stopped since then." | | [11:11] | Tom Ellis | "We became very friendly with our surrogate. She was incredible...It seems like a very sort of strange relationship if you're not part of it, but when you are, it makes complete sense." | | [21:10] | Tom Ellis | "You're just basically asking someone to ask you the questions that you're scared to ask yourself because you probably know the answers already." | | [24:03] | Tom Ellis | "I guess stumbling across acting was the real point of like, ah, okay, this is what I should be doing." | | [25:47] | Tom Ellis | "I was reading this script thinking, what on earth is this?...But I was—my interest was piqued." | | [28:55] | Tom Ellis | "I can feel it happening, and I'm like, I'm really sorry. I think I'm about to— [passes out]." | | [31:25] | Tom Ellis | "I think I've become a U.S. citizen at the worst possible time, unfortunately. I love the states." | | [39:24] | Tom Ellis | "What we love about each other is our imperfections. And I think that is a very different place to where I've been before in life." | | [47:48] | Tom Ellis | "Love will conquer many, many things. Unconditional love is so powerful…and it’s valuable and you want to cherish it." | | [49:52] | Tom Ellis | "Getting some kind of affection from your cat is one of the most rewarding things in the world. Yes, again, being a people pleaser and being a cat owner are two things that don’t work." |

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Key Timestamps for Important Segments

• Spirituality and Family Roots: [03:40]–[05:09]
• People Pleasing & Therapy: [05:17]–[06:38], [19:01]–[21:48]
• Embarrassing Spielberg Encounter: [06:38]–[07:48]
• Fatherhood & Surrogacy: [08:07]–[11:45]
• Failure 1 – Sports: [11:54]–[13:21], [22:58]–[24:03]
• Miranda & Acting Break: [25:31]–[27:33]
• Failure 2 – Green Card Medical: [27:35]–[31:23]
• American Citizenship & Politics: [31:25]–[34:41]
• Failure 3 – Student Finances: [42:12]–[45:59]
• Family Bonding & Parental Love: [47:39]–[50:49]
• Cat Adoptions & Affection: [48:42]–[50:49]

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This summary captures the thoughtful, humorous, and candid energy of both Tom Ellis and Elizabeth Day, highlighting stories that range from formative family moments and professional anxieties to moving meditations on modern fatherhood and finding self-acceptance—failures, flaws, but always with love and hope.

Transcript

[Tom Ellis]

So there was probably about 20 people gathered around my mum's vagina just when we were being born and my dad said you came out to an audience and you've never really stopped since then.

[Elizabeth Day]

And growing up with sisters, do you think that helped you understand women?

[Tom Ellis]

Definitely.

[Elizabeth Day]

How did you work all of that out?

[Tom Ellis]

Years of therapy.

[Elizabeth Day]

Welcome to how to Fail, the podcast that believes, as Truman Capote did, that failure is the condiment that gives success its flavor. I know from experience that starting your own business can be super intimidating and can feel really isolating, so I empathize with those of you who are currently feeling that way. However, I've got a tool for you that can simplify everything and make you feel less alone. For millions of businesses. That tool is Shopify. Shopify is the commerce platform behind millions of businesses around the world and 10% of all all e commerce in the US from household names like Mattel to brands Just getting started. Get started with your own design studio. With hundreds of ready to use templates, Shopify helps you build a beautiful online store to match your brand style. Turn your big business idea into With Shopify on your side, sign up for your 1 pound per month trial and start selling today at shopify.co.uk fail go to shopify.co.uk Abercrombie Kids is bringing the ultimate first day energy back to school. It all starts with on trend outfits for that front door photo shoot, plus the coolest tees, shorts and jeans to take them through the rest of the year. Get them ready for their close up and keep them comfy too. Make this grade their best one yet. Shop all things back to school in store, online and in the app. The actor Tom Ellis was born in Cardiff and raised in Sheffield, the son of a Baptist minister. It was a religious upbringing, which makes it all the more ironic that the role for which he has arguably become most famous is playing the devil incarnate in Netflix's hit series Lucifer, which ran for six seasons and became the most watched streaming series in the world. In 2019, Ellis studied at the Royal Scottish Academy of Music and Drama and broke onto our screens as Gary in the beloved BBC one sitcom Miranda. Since then, he's starred in US dramas including Players with Gina Rodriguez and Hulus Tell Me Lies, where the showrunner is his wife, Megan Oppenheimer. The couple welcomed a daughter via surrogate in 2023. It's a rapid ascent that shows no signs of abating. Ellis next appears in the highly anticipated film adapt of Richard Osman's best selling mystery novel, the Thursday Murder Club alongside Helen Mirren, Pierce Brosnan, and Richard E. Grant. And yet Ellis was rejected from the first four drama schools he applied to. Still, some inner resolution kept him going. As he puts it, you have to get used to rejection if you're going to do it. But I had this feeling inside of me that it was going to work out, and it did. That feeling has carried me through my adult life. Stay in your lane. Do your thing. It's all going to be all right. Tom Ellis, welcome to how to Fail.

[Tom Ellis]

Hello. Nice to meet you.

[Elizabeth Day]

Lovely to meet you, too. And I'm guessing as well, that you grew up with the idea of there being a path, whether that was a spiritual feeling or a religious one. Did you feel, and do you feel that the universe kind of has its plans for you?

[Tom Ellis]

I do. I mean, it's. It's a strange one, I think. You know, when I was a kid growing up, I used to think that. That. That it would be God and God's plan and all of those things, because that's what I essentially learned from. From day one. I think as I've gotten older, I'm. I've taken a step back from organized religion, but I still hold on to a sense of spirituality and a sense that there's something much bigger that we can't put our finger on and there's no point trying to explain it.

[Elizabeth Day]

Yes. So we've got so deep so quickly, but I think that's so interesting, because if something doesn't feel right to you, have you also got more practice at acknowledging and recognizing that and changing course?

[Tom Ellis]

Definitely. I mean, I think I've always tried to avoid, like, conflict. Like, it's a big thing and it's a family trait. I've learned. But as I've gotten older, I've had to. I've had to face things that have been really uncomfortable, but I'm glad that I have done, because then I get back to a place of, like, this is where I should be. And I think acknowledging when I've been in the wrong place has been hard, but it's something that I've got better at.

[Elizabeth Day]

Gosh. Well, not only. We were discussing before we started recording, the fact that what we have in common is that we are both 1978 November Scorpios.

[Tom Ellis]

The best version.

[Elizabeth Day]

Exactly. Big up the 1978 Scorpios, but the fact that you're a people pleaser, that's another huge thing that we have in common. And it is something that it's been a lifetime's Work for me. Dismantling myself from that desire to keep everyone happy.

[Tom Ellis]

Yeah.

[Elizabeth Day]

And to sort of outsource your sense of self to what you think other people are feeling about you.

[Tom Ellis]

Accommodating people.

[Elizabeth Day]

Yes.

[Tom Ellis]

And thinking about other people's, you know, comfortable. Whether someone's comfortable in an environment or stuff.

[Elizabeth Day]

Let's talk about the Thursday Murder Club. You have described the cast as like a bucket list of all the people I've ever wanted to work with.

[Tom Ellis]

True.

[Elizabeth Day]

So that must be exciting. But it must also have been very intimidating.

[Tom Ellis]

Oh, my God. Incredibly intimidating. I mean, it's funny, actually, because I remember my first day on set. I was working with Dame Helen Mirren, Sir Ben Kingsley, Pierce Brosnan, and the amazing Celia Imrie. And my character in it is actually sort of a minor personality. He was a boxer, and now he does, you know, reality TV and stuff like that. So he. He is a celebrity to all of those characters in it. So I come in to this scene and they're all fawning over me. And I'm thinking, if you knew what was going on in my head right now, this is role reversal.

[Elizabeth Day]

That's so funny. Did you meet Steven Spielberg?

[Tom Ellis]

Wow. Do you know what? We were on set one day. Richard Osmond was there for a set visit. And we were filming in this beautiful, stately home just outside Reading. And it was a busy day. There was a big crowd scene and lots of the cast were there. And then there was this helicopter that was flying really low overhead, and someone said, oh, that's Steven. And I was like, what? Steven Spielberg? And they were like, yeah, yeah, he's coming to visit today. And I was like, what? What?

[Elizabeth Day]

Really?

[Tom Ellis]

Couldn't believe it. And, yeah, lo and behold, he parked his helicopter and he came up this driveway and he came and said hello to all the, you know, the main cast. I was going to say the four biggies. And I was stood shoulder to shoulder with David Tennant, who's in the film. And we were there going, I can't believe it's Steven Spielberg. And then as time went on, he was doing photographs with a few people. And then we turned to each other and said, do you think anyone's gonna actually introduce us to him? And no one did. Oh, no. So he kind of did his visit and then he left, and we both were a bit quiet. And the next day we came in and I said, david, I was so disappointed about yesterday. And he went, so was I.

[Elizabeth Day]

So Steven Spielberg is a producer. He's the one who produced it.

[Tom Ellis]

Yeah. So amblin Entertainment, which is his production company, they're the people that bought the rights to the books before the books were published, actually. And, yeah, they are making them into big Hollywood movies with Chris Columbus directing.

[Elizabeth Day]

Now, I mentioned in the introduction that your wife Megan is the showrunner of Tell Me Lies. Now, she's developing or has developed a new show called Second Wife starring you, and she happens to be your second wife.

[Tom Ellis]

Indeed.

[Elizabeth Day]

Now, am I drawing the right conclusion that it might be loosely based? I'm also a second wife. Actually, I've been a second wife twice over.

[Tom Ellis]

Oh, yeah.

[Elizabeth Day]

So she wants to talk to me. Is it loosely based on that experience? Because I'm riveted by it and I can't wait to watch it.

[Tom Ellis]

It is. It's based on. I mean, it is that classic thing of, you know, we want to write something that we know about. And I think there are very. There's lots of, you know, nuances about being a step parent, for example, and being a parent who has children that goes into another marriage where you don't have children. And, you know, there are so many things that happen within that and so many feelings that you go through that while you're going through them, a lot of the time you feel like you're the only person that's ever experienced this. And then, of course, as time goes on, you start talking to people and realize it's a very shared experience.

[Elizabeth Day]

I can't wait to watch it. As I said, and I do think you're so right, when you are particularly a step parent, it's a story that you can't share without also taking into consideration the people that you're sharing it about. So my story is a step parent is not just mine.

[Tom Ellis]

Yes.

[Elizabeth Day]

And I'm very protective of the fact that it involves other people. And so that's why it often feels like you are just the only one experiencing it, because there are so few stories about it.

[Tom Ellis]

Yeah, no, absolutely.

[Elizabeth Day]

And I also. I would love to talk to you, if you don't mind, about surrogacy, because I'm someone who went through a loss of fertility treatment unsuccessfully for very many years. And so I salute couples who are brave enough to do what you did. And I think it's such a beautiful thing. And I can't even imagine the emotional complexities that you went through. So I just wanted to ask you a little bit about that and about that experience to get your lovely Dolly.

[Tom Ellis]

Lovely Dolly? Well, I think. I think. I think we should start with lovely Dolly, because, you know, I'm A parent of four children now, or one of them is an adult. And all my children have been delivered in different ways. But I think the end game is every parent just wants to have a healthy child at the end of it and how you get there. I think lots of people have opinions about that, but it doesn't really matter at the end of the day. And I think surrogacy is a really viable option for people where it's difficult to do it if you. If you don't have other options. And it might seem very alien to people that have not done it, but it became its own thing. You know, we became very friendly with our surrogate. She was incredible. Her and her husband, you know, were fantastic, especially, you know, when Dolly was actually being born. And it seems like a very sort of strange relationship if you're not part of it, but when you are, it makes complete sense. So, yeah, I don't know. I don't know. Childbirth and being a parent comes with lots of opinions from people. And I've been happier in life when I've closed my ears off to those opinions, basically.

[Elizabeth Day]

It's a beautiful end to that story. And Dolly's also a Scorpio.

[Tom Ellis]

She is indeed.

[Elizabeth Day]

Well done.

[Tom Ellis]

Another one.

[Elizabeth Day]

Well done for. For the timing. Okay, let's get on to your failures. So your first failure is your failure at being a sportsman.

[Tom Ellis]

Yeah.

[Elizabeth Day]

What kind of sports were you into?

[Tom Ellis]

I. All sport. I was obsessed, and I still am obsessed with all sport. Football, obviously, when you're a kid. I think certainly in this country, that's the. That's the main one, isn't it? It's that it's the everyman sport, and everyone dreams of being a footballer. And, you know, everyone plays. It's such an easy game to kind of, like, put a couple of sweaters down. And I think it's something that I was pretty decent as well. Not just the football, but, like, cricket, rugby. I was very able, but I was never quite good enough to pursue it. And it was frustrating. And I think one of the main reasons that happened, and I was sort of resentful for it my whole sort of childhood was because I grew up in the church. And that meant that on Sundays, I had to go to church. And those were the days when extracurricular clubs, sports clubs, tended to happen for kids. And so I didn't have that outlet. And so I was never able to really, truly hone my skills outside of school. And subsequently, I kind of realized maybe when I was about 14 or 15, that that dream was never Going to happen.

[Elizabeth Day]

How interesting. And so what's it like when I say your father was a Baptist minister? What's that like?

[Tom Ellis]

I mean, I look back on it now and I'm really, you know, appreciative of it. As I say, at the time, growing up, it was a. It got in the way of me wanting to do the things I really wanted to do. You know, I appreciate it now for so many things. It's quite strange when you're the preacher's kid, or PK as we used to call ourselves, because you're almost like a little minor celebrity, like on a Sunday, you know, my dad is like the main celebrity, and everyone wants to talk to him, everyone wants to impress him, everyone wants to have their moment with him. And then I would sort of after church, you know, be speaking to everybody in a weird sort of way. It sort of honed my social skills again. Didn't appreciate that until I left, you know, and lived on my own and became an adult. It set me up for lots of good things in my life, but at the time, I was so resentful.

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[Elizabeth Day]

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[Jonathan Van Ness]

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[Elizabeth Day]

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[Tom Ellis]

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[Elizabeth Day]

You've got three sisters. One of them is a twin.

[Tom Ellis]

Yeah.

[Elizabeth Day]

Tell me about being a twin.

[Tom Ellis]

Well, again, I don't know any different.

[Elizabeth Day]

You were the heaviest twins on record when you were born, weren't you?

[Tom Ellis]

My sister and I were on the front page of the South Wales Echo at two days old with the headline Record Breakers.

[Elizabeth Day]

Honestly, you should be so proud.

[Tom Ellis]

I was so proud. I was 9 pounds 3 ounces and my sister was 7 pounds 5 ounces.

[Elizabeth Day]

Your mom carrying around just like 17 pounds.

[Tom Ellis]

Yeah. Plus all the fluid and everything else. It was like, crazy.

[Elizabeth Day]

My gosh.

[Tom Ellis]

And it was at the University of Hospital Wales in Cardiff. So this is why my dad thinks I became an actor, because basically when we were born, news had got around to these medical students that these massive twins were going to be born. So there was probably about 20 people gathered around my mum's vagina just when we were being born. And my dad said, you came out to an audience and you've never really stopped since then.

[Elizabeth Day]

Oh, my goodness. What does your sister do?

[Tom Ellis]

My sister is a headteacher of primary.

[Elizabeth Day]

School, which is so interesting because that's also, I imagine, a part of that. You can see the connection between minister, headteacher, actor.

[Tom Ellis]

There's a performative element to all of it. You have to be comfortable, you know, speaking in front of people or putting on a Persona to speak in front of people, for sure.

[Elizabeth Day]

Was your mum okay after this?

[Tom Ellis]

My mum was fine. And the weird thing is that she had us naturally.

[Elizabeth Day]

Oh, my God.

[Tom Ellis]

Which just wouldn't happen these days. And my sister was first and she was breeched, so that wouldn't happen. I mean, it's all. It's bonkers to think about it.

[Elizabeth Day]

Yeah. I know that it's probably very annoying as a twin to get asked about being a twin and you probably get asked this all the time. Can you guess what I'm going to ask?

[Tom Ellis]

Do we have similar thoughts Are we kind of. Do we have that celebrity?

[Elizabeth Day]

If something's happening, can you feel it?

[Tom Ellis]

That don't have that. And I wonder whether that is something that happens with identical twins because they've come from the same egg that split, whereas we were separate eggs that just happened to share. We were wombies, as I like to call them.

[Elizabeth Day]

Womb mates.

[Tom Ellis]

Womb mates.

[Elizabeth Day]

And growing up with sisters, do you think that helped you understand women?

[Tom Ellis]

Definitely, yes, without a shadow of a doubt. And to the point where I had friends that grew up just with boys and they would struggle, you know, having platonic friendships with girls because they couldn't think about girls other than, you know, the opposite sex and thinking about it from that point of view. And I just never really had that obstacle. I just. Everyone was the same. And, you know, it was certainly advantageous when I was a teenager and my sisters would bring their friends home and I got to sort of, you know, witness and be part of the world that other people would come to school going, I wonder what it is they talk about. I wonder how to be. It was just a very natural thing for me.

[Elizabeth Day]

I'm very. I'm going to come back to the sport, but before we do, I'm very interested in this, in how people pleasing plays out later in life. So as I mentioned, I think I really identify with that categorization and it held me back in my romantic relationships in a way I didn't realize at a time. At the time, because I didn't know who I was. I was so embedded in the idea of trying to please my partner that I ended up, yeah, just losing touch with my own needs, wants and desires. Did you have any of that experience in your romantic relationships that.

[Tom Ellis]

Yeah, no, for sure. I mean, that really resonates with me, actually. I think because I came from a good upbringing, should we say. I felt I had a sort of savior complex a little bit as well, where I felt, you know, I've got nothing bad in my life and I can only offer you good things. And so I would gravitate towards people that maybe hadn't had such a great upbringing and feel like I really had something to offer. And I look back at it now and think, God, I was such an idiot to be like that. But it does come out of that thing. To want someone, you know, I want you to like me is a voice in my head all the time in any environment I go into. If I'm at work at the moment and someone is, you know, deemed difficult or something like that, I see that as a Challenge?

[Elizabeth Day]

Yes.

[Tom Ellis]

To make them. To. Want them to like me.

[Elizabeth Day]

Ye.

[Tom Ellis]

And it is a good attribute in certain environments. But I think you really have to look after your heart when you're like that, because you can. As I alluded to before, I think you open yourself up to people taking advantage of that sometimes as well. And if you're in a place where you're accommodating someone who's very forthright and very adamant about things and whatever, it can diminish you somewhat and you can make yourself small without realizing it. And then before you know it, you've really lost a sense of self and you feel a bit lost.

[Elizabeth Day]

How did you work all of that out?

[Tom Ellis]

Years of therapy?

[Elizabeth Day]

Yes.

[Tom Ellis]

I mean, I've been in. I've had therapy, you know, on and off throughout my adult life. You know, it's come at times where something big has happened and I feel like, you know, I've. I've had to do it. And that actually, from. From that I've realized that it's better just to continually talk about oneself in an environment where you're not annoying people, you're paying someone to listen to you talk about yourself. But I think through therapy, I've learned that you're just basically asking someone to ask you the questions that you're scared to ask yourself because you probably know the answers already.

[Elizabeth Day]

What do you think this might be too personal, so feel free not to answer it. What do you think is the scariest question you've ever been asked?

[Tom Ellis]

The scariest question? I don't know if it's. I don't know if it's a question so much as a kind of. It's more about admitting stuff to oneself. And I think getting out of your own way to do that is really important. And you have to lose your ego. You have to be humble and you have to want to try and be better. I guess I think my main thing is that I don't want to repeat mistakes. And I want to be aware as to why I've done something. Why did I behave like that? What was going on? What was I thinking? Why was I thinking that way? Because I can recognize when I'm not being myself. I can recognize when I've drifted too far away from it. But it's, you know, it's time. It's getting old. It's having children. It's lots of things, you know, put stuff in perspective.

[Elizabeth Day]

We'll come back to being an actor in a second. The sportsman. Failure. What do you think it taught you? Letting go of that dream, because it is, especially as a teenager, it is quite profound thinking to yourself, I'm not going to be good enough, so I need to let that go.

[Tom Ellis]

What I did was that I decided, well, if I can't do that, I'd like to do something to do with that. So I was really on a path of wanting to work in physiotherapy and sports injuries. I thought, if I can't run on the pitch as a player, at least I can run on the pitch with the magic sponge. So I think that was how I was sort of channeling that disappointment, basically. It was weird because I didn't. I stumbled across acting at like the age of 17. So I'd really spent most of my school years never doing that. You know, it wasn't part of my life and it was sport, sport, sport, sport, sport. I guess stumbling across acting was the real point of like, ah, okay, this is what I should be doing.

[Elizabeth Day]

And you stumbled across it because of a teacher, is that right?

[Tom Ellis]

Yeah, yeah. My old teacher, Claire Pender, who I'm still really good friends with, actually. I was doing A levels and I was doing sports, science, history and English and I did a couple of weeks of the history course and I just. It wasn't a period of history that I was that into and I just wasn't enjoying it, so I didn't really know what to do. And I went to my sixth form tutors and said, I'm going to drop history. And they said, well, you have to do something else. And I didn't know what. And then Claire had been my English teacher previously in school and she came to me, like nervous kind of excitement, and said, I hear you're looking for a third A level. I said, yeah. She said, I'm running the theater studies course and I've got 12 girls and one boy. I really need boys. And I went, how many girls? And completely the wrong motivation to do something. But I said, yeah, I'll come along. And you know, literally within like two or three lessons, I was like, oh, I'm really enjoying this. And as that sort of year progressed, there was a school play. She cast me in the lead of that and we did that school play and another friend of mine whose mum used to be an actress came to see it. She called me the next day and said, I saw you in the play last night, I really think you should think about doing this. And I told my teacher that and she said, well, I think you should think about doing this as well. And so at the next Parents Evening. She convinced my parents I should audition for drama school.

[Elizabeth Day]

And we will talk more about drama school because it pertains to one of your failures. But if you'll indulge me and my listeners, because we've had Miranda on this podcast before, and she is beloved. Getting that role as Gary. What was that whole experience like for you being in Miranda?

[Tom Ellis]

It was. I mean, ultimately, it was amazing. I'll never forget being sent the script. I didn't know who Miranda was at the time, and she had. She wasn't. You know, people knew her in the comedy world, but she wasn't particularly known at home at that point in time. And I got sent this script, and at the time it was called Miranda Hart's Joke Shop, and it was a pilot script. And because I didn't know who she was, I didn't know how she delivered her lines or anything like that, I was reading this script thinking, what on earth is this? I think it's funny. I can't work it out. But I was. You know, my interest was piqued. So I went to the audition and Miranda was there, and so she read the scenes with me. And it was during that process I was thinking, oh, my God, this woman's hilarious. This suddenly all makes sense. And I think I know what I would do with this for Gary. And we just had a really lovely meeting and we did the pilot, and I didn't know what to expect after the pilot. And I watched it back and it. And it came out really well. And then we got commissioned as this tiny little show on BBC two. And it was. I think it was the first time that I'd done a job where I noticed people coming up to me afterwards going, oh, I've seen this thing. And I didn't know at the time whether it was going to be received well or not, because it was really against the grain of how comedy was going. But it was just amazing that people responded in the way that they did.

[Elizabeth Day]

And do they still, when you come back to London? Oh, yeah, yeah.

[Tom Ellis]

Oh, absolutely. I get. I either get Gary or Lucifer in the street. That's right.

[Elizabeth Day]

Just people shouting that Lucifer. Lucifer guy.

[Tom Ellis]

Yeah, yeah.

[Elizabeth Day]

Okay. Your second failure is that you failed at your medical for your US Green Card. I can't wait to hear this story.

[Tom Ellis]

Yeah. So when I was growing up, I. When I was seven years old, I fell off my bike. And my mum was a music teacher, and I remember she was doing a piano lesson at the time, so she couldn't tend to me. So my elder Sister did, and I grazed my knee and she had to, like, put TCP on it and put a plaster on it. And I passed out. And first time never happened to me before. I felt funny, passed out. Remember coming round and my sister was over me going, oh, my God. And my mum ran running in from the piano lesson. And that was the first time of many times in my life that I passed out at, like, the sight of blood or having some sort of medical procedure, like, you know, having my blood taken or an injection or whatever. And I sort of lived with that my whole life, being told I was a bit of a wuss. And, oh, Tom, you're going to pass out. You have to lie down and all of these things. And at my medical, for my US Green Card, they had to take blood. And before that, I'd filled out a form that said, have you ever suffered from. You know. And you always say no to these things. Have you ever suffered from this? No, no, no, no, no. Fainting, dizziness, no. Blah, blah, blah. Anyway, the doctor then takes my blood, starts asking me questions and I can feel it happening and I'm like, I'm really sorry. I think I'm about to. And I was out and I came round and the doctor was panicking and basically they sorted me out. You know, I don't know if you've ever. If you ever fainted.

[Elizabeth Day]

Yes.

[Tom Ellis]

Come around from a faint, you're like, sweaty, sweaty. Like, don't know where you are. Just. It's horrible. And it takes a bit of time to get your. Get your shit together, basically. But when I finally got together, she went, okay, I'm gonna have to fail you. And I said, okay. And she said, because you said all these things on your form and you've just displayed to me that you. You are prone to fainting. So I'm gonna defer this. And you have to get neurological tests.

[Elizabeth Day]

Oh, my gosh.

[Tom Ellis]

So I had to. I ended up going back, like, you know, six months later and passing it.

[Elizabeth Day]

But did you go for neurological tests?

[Tom Ellis]

I went for neurological.

[Elizabeth Day]

Everything was fine. It is that. You're just a wuss.

[Tom Ellis]

So here's the thing. So that is the UK NHS version of my ailment.

[Elizabeth Day]

Okay. Wussness.

[Tom Ellis]

I now have lived in the States for a while and I was explaining this to a doctor in the States because they'd asked me to come in to have some blood taken and they said, have you ever taken anything for that? And I was like, no one has ever offered me anything for it. What are you talking about? And they said, well, what you're describing to me is a condition called vasovagal, and it's basically to do with your vagal nerve and to do with your nervous system. And essentially it's a panic attack. It's a form of panic attack and it's your body deciding something is really bad and your nervous system shuts down and you go into fight or flight. And so that's why you pass out, because it's protecting you for whatever reason, blood injections, medical stuff causes that reaction in me. And this doctor said, if you were to take like an anti anxiety medication before you do these things, it will probably switch off that side of your nervous system and it won't happen. So I said, I'm willing to give it a shot. And I came in the following week to have my blood taken, having taken one of these things beforehand, and I was absolutely fine.

[Elizabeth Day]

So you've got your green card now.

[Tom Ellis]

I'm now actually a U.S. citizen because that was 15 years ago.

[Elizabeth Day]

Do you like being a U.S. citizen?

[Tom Ellis]

I think I've become a U.S. citizen at the worst possible time, unfortunately. I love the states. I've got so many friends, I've got family there. Now, obviously it is a strange time to be a US citizen. I'm terrified of the new administration and what they're going to do. And I feel like, whereas in 2016 there was a real sort of active response as to how people felt about Trump being in power, this time around it feels like everyone's gone quiet. It feels very passive. And while it's passive, all this stuff is happening. And that is terrifying because, I mean, it hopefully will only be four years. If he has his way, I think he'll probably try and change the system and be there as long as he can be.

[Elizabeth Day]

And how does it feel being in la, specifically? Because LA and California has always been seen as its own particular enclave. And that must be nice in some ways, but also weird in others.

[Tom Ellis]

I mean, it is. I think, you know, people will say this about the states. The two coasts think very differently to everyone else in the middle. And there is, you know, there is a generic truth to that. I think the thing that's shocking for me this time round is that a lot of people secretly voted for Trump last time. This time they've not been so secretive about it. And even in California, I'm shocked about the amount of people that, even if they are traditionally Republican, I would hope that they would have enough common sense to realize that he isn't. And that's a very different thing that you're signing up for. But I think, unfortunately, money talks in the States. It very much is the currency, but it also is the currency of how people value life. And people are prone to looking after number one first there. And the sense of social conscience I don't think exists in the way that we know it. And that's quite worrying.

[Elizabeth Day]

Have you spoken to Megan about not always living there?

[Tom Ellis]

Yes, we have. I mean, we've talked about it. But 50% of America doesn't like Trump, at least 50%. And Trump doesn't represent America. He represents a certain type and he represents commerce and he represents business and the worst things that come with that. But I don't think he represents American people. And I think that to, to just leave a place because you don't like the ruler, if it's a democratic place and there is an opportunity to have your say, then I think just upping to up sticks and leave, I think would be the wrong thing to do. I think we need to spend the next few years regrouping, gathering proper opposition, and going again in three and a half years and properly, you know, getting to the end of this.

[Elizabeth Day]

Yes, I, I salute you in that endeavor.

[Tom Ellis]

Race the rudders. Race the sails. Race the sails. Captain, an unidentified ship is approaching.

[Jonathan Van Ness]

Over.

[Tom Ellis]

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[Jonathan Van Ness]

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[Tom Ellis]

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[Elizabeth Day]

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[Tom Ellis]

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[Elizabeth Day]

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[Elizabeth Day]

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[Tom Ellis]

I did, yeah. We met. We didn't meet at work. We met outside of work. But I did. I worked on a show of hers a few years ago called Queen America. And then I worked on Tell Me Lies last year. I love working with her. I mean, she is so brilliant at what she does. She's so intelligent, emotionally intelligent, but also intelligent from a performative point of view, because she used to be. When she was growing up, she used to be an actor. And so the way in which she can communicate with actors is really quite special, I think. And the way she can communicate from page to actor is a skill that, you know, is few and far between, I have to say. There's not many directors that can do that well. And I, you know, we have a huge amount of respect for each other outside of loving each other. A lot of people would think that working on a show like Tell me Lies, that I did last year with her, which is a show about sexual toxicity and there's, you know, very explicit scenes within it. I think a lot of people would think, isn't that strange that you're doing that and your wife is, like, sitting there watching it? Which I can, you know, I can appreciate. But actually, it wasn't. I felt safe doing that. And I felt safe because she's really, really good at separating church and state. You know, we buzz off each other in terms of creativity. But I also just. I defer to her on lots of things because I think she's very super intelligent, basically.

[Elizabeth Day]

Yeah. And is it a relationship where you feel fully accepted, flaws and all? Because again, I'm going back to. I'm just superimposing my personal experience that I think, again, the people pleasing piece for me was trying to sort of manage someone's opinion of me, which obviously you can't really manage. And I was trying to present myself as being better than. I was trying to present myself as being perfect, which obviously is impossible because no one's perfect and perfect is boring. And now I feel so lucky that I'm in a relationship where the imperfections are part of why he loves me.

[Tom Ellis]

I think I couldn't have said it any better, to be honest. I met Meghan at a time where it was impossible for me to hide my imperfections. And I was in a place where I was happy to talk about my faults, but I was just open about talking about the fact I wasn't perfect and acknowledging that and wanting to Be better and wanting something better and, you know, realizing all of my flaws and that I won't always make the right decision and all of those things. And similarly, Meghan was in a place like that too, where, you know, she's got lots and lots of things that are not perfect. But I think what we love about each other is our imperfections. And I think that is a very different place to where I've been before in life.

[Elizabeth Day]

And why did you get to that place where you could finally just talk about it?

[Tom Ellis]

Because life hadn't gone how I thought it would. Basically, I was out of a marriage that didn't work. And I think you learn a lot through that process and you have to go through a lot of soul searching and you have to kind of be very honest with yourself. And, you know, out of that hardship, I was a much, I guess, more resilient, stronger person. But also I was much more open to being vulnerable. And I cry so much more than I used to. I think that I. Again, talking about being younger, I was obsessed with that notion of the perfect life. My mum and dad married very young. My eldest sister married very young, still with her husband. My twin sister still with her husband. I was sort of surrounded by this notion of how it should be. And when it didn't work out like that, I realized I still existed and breathed and I still was a person. I still had things to offer, but it was. I had to be open and honest about my failings in order to move forward.

[Elizabeth Day]

Thank you for sharing that. And again, I relate to so much of it. And I went through a divorce, as I mentioned, but I didn't have children with my ex husband. So I know how much more nuanced and complicated it is if you do have kids. And I think you said something really beautiful at the beginning of this episode about how if a relationship ends, that doesn't make it a failure. Yeah, that actually, as you've just described, you learn so much and you can still be in relationship with that relationship even though it's passed, because you're still learning from it and you still have your gorgeous kids and all of that. But that's slightly different, I think, from regretting. Do you regret anything? How do you feel about regret?

[Tom Ellis]

I think it's easy to say you regret things, but actually, no, I don't. I don't regret it. I mean, I wish it had been easier. I wish things had been easier sometimes in life, but I don't regret anything because I. I think that every time I made a choice or decided something or felt the way I felt. That's how I was feeling at the time. It wasn't. I wasn't pretending. I wasn't, you know, I. And I really. I'm sure, you know, when you got married, the first time you thought that was it, you know, that's it for life. But I went into everything with great intentions and so, no, I don't have regrets.

[Elizabeth Day]

Your final failure is your failure at finances as a student.

[Tom Ellis]

Oh, God.

[Elizabeth Day]

So now we're going back a bit. So Claire Pender has got you into drama and you have applied to drama schools. You got rejected from four, but you kept on going and now you're at drama school. And is this when you're failing at finances?

[Tom Ellis]

Yes. So I. The other thing about growing up in the church is that we didn't have a lot of money, so I didn't have parents that could, like, support me through college and stuff. So I had to get loans. And I think I was the last year of getting a government grant to pay my fees.

[Elizabeth Day]

Yes. Because we're the same vintage, right?

[Tom Ellis]

Exactly. Same vintage, yeah.

[Elizabeth Day]

It was tuition fees. Yeah.

[Tom Ellis]

So I had to get student loans for living, but my fees were paid for, thankfully. So it was the first time in my life that I had been given an overdraft. It was the first time in my life that I had. When the loan came in, I had a whack of money in my account, and it was the first time in my life that I'd lived away from home. And it was the perfect storm, basically, of how it was like Brewster's Millions, but without millions. I. I basically. And I, you know, I was 18 years old and I loved what I was doing, but I also, I loved going out, I love going to the pub, love drinking, you know, socializing, all of it. And that first, you know, a lot of my friends were going to university. And going to university is very different to going to drama school. You go to university, you're in a few days a week for lectures, and the rest of the time is yours. I had to be in every day nine till six, and longer than that, if we were rehearsing something and you're expected to be incredibly disciplined and all of those things. And I wasn't that good in my first year. I spent all my money, all my overdrafts, my loans. I just, you know, I remember having zero money at all to buy food, and I was living off, like, a can of baked beans every two days or something like that. And at the end of My first year I had a 1500 pound overdraft, which back then was a lot, and I'd spent all of my loan and I had to be in Sheffield for 10 weeks over the summer. And the bank said, we can't give you any more overdraft facility. We can't do anything until you've paid this all back. So for 10 weeks I did three jobs. I was working full time on a project, a building site. I was working in the evenings in a pub. And then I worked at my old job at Tesco's doing the fruit and veg on a Saturday and a Sunday and spent that entire time paying it all back, but also realizing that I never ever wanted to do that again and I needed to buck my ideas up. And it totally changed my attitude at drama school because I think towards the end of the year, I'd had a. A meeting with one of the teachers there and they said, you've missed so many classes, you're on the precipice of being thrown out. And that combined with my financial skills, I realized that I needed to do something. And that whole summer became a sort of a humbling process of, you can't allow this to happen. You've been given this opportunity, you've worked so hard for it. You need to buck your ideas up. So, yeah, I decided I don't ever want to be a full time barman, I don't ever want to be a builder and I don't ever, you know, want to work in Tesco's full time. I want to be an actor. And I went back with a fresh bank balance, spent 50 pounds a week, that was my budget. And became one of the top students at drama school.

[Elizabeth Day]

Well done. What a turnaround.

[Tom Ellis]

I know.

[Elizabeth Day]

What were you doing with fruit and veg exactly?

[Tom Ellis]

Oh, just projects. Just stocking the project.

[Elizabeth Day]

You were just stocking it?

[Tom Ellis]

Yeah. But it was particularly. You either did that or you did the shop floor, which was the other, you know, other groceries and stuff. But if you did fruit and veg, that was just your spot. And you had to kind of like rotate the fruit, make sure all the stuff that was about to go out of date was at the front, all of that sort of stuff.

[Elizabeth Day]

What's the most difficult fruit or veg to stack? Good question. This is where I ask the questions that really catch.

[Tom Ellis]

Oh, I don't know, probably the one that is also the most comedic for me, which is the butternut squash.

[Elizabeth Day]

The butternut squash. Okay. Yeah. Yes. Because it's got quite a smooth, slippy Surface.

[Tom Ellis]

It does. And, yes, it doesn't always fit together like pieces of jigsaw.

[Elizabeth Day]

Yeah. Okay. When you see a butternut squash now, does it sort of trigger you?

[Tom Ellis]

It does trigger me. And also, I can't help but pick it up, hold it somewhere around my midriff and shout across to my wife and say, do we need one of these? Babe.

[Elizabeth Day]

You got your club card. That kind of glimpse that you had into financial precariousness, has that stayed with you in any way? Like, do you still fit? Yeah, I can see it.

[Tom Ellis]

Yeah. No, it does. It does. I'm very. I'm very careful, or try to be. I have a lot of, you know, outgoings as an adult with, you know, several children and stuff. It's sort of Money just disappears these days. But no, I'm. I. I've always been mindful of. I've never been frivolous, really. And I certainly don't go out anywhere near as much as I used to.

[Elizabeth Day]

Do you like being a dad?

[Tom Ellis]

I love being a dad.

[Elizabeth Day]

What do you think is the most important thing that being a dad to four different children of four different ages, what's the most important thing?

[Tom Ellis]

It's taught you that love will conquer many, many things. And unconditional love is so powerful, and I think is. Is when you have children, that is the one source in life where true, unconditional love comes from. And so it's valuable and you want to cherish it. And, you know, nothing makes me happier than laughing with my children. I remember, you know, at certain times in their life, I have laughed more with them. And from a place where I don't laugh about other things. I think that sort of true connection and that true sense of knowing someone to the depth of their soul is something that comes with being a parent. And it's kind of untouchable, gorgeous, seamless link.

[Elizabeth Day]

Now, to talk about cats, just before we phase this part, because that's another thing that we have in common.

[Tom Ellis]

Oh, really?

[Elizabeth Day]

Obsession with cats.

[Tom Ellis]

Well. Oh, I wouldn't say it's necessarily my obsession. It's an obsession that I have inherited through my wife.

[Elizabeth Day]

Well, I love the sound of Megan. You have two cats, Cain and Abel.

[Tom Ellis]

We do, yeah.

[Elizabeth Day]

Okay. So how so? But I've seen loads of pictures of you posing with cats.

[Tom Ellis]

Well, we also. We work with a cat charity.

[Elizabeth Day]

Right. That would be one.

[Tom Ellis]

And yeah, basically we've done a lot of fostering of kittens and cats over the years as well.

[Elizabeth Day]

Stop it. So do you like cats?

[Tom Ellis]

I do now.

[Elizabeth Day]

Okay.

[Tom Ellis]

Now.

[Elizabeth Day]

Okay.

[Tom Ellis]

Well, I Grew up. It's funny, isn't it? You have to be dog or cat. You can't be both.

[Elizabeth Day]

I know.

[Tom Ellis]

I grew up with dogs, and my family are very much dog family. And so I was always taught to be suspicious of cats and didn't have a lot of time for them. But through Megan, I've realized that they're just quite wonderful creatures. Getting some kind of affection from your cat is one of the most rewarding things in the world. Yes, again, being a people pleaser and being a cat owner are two things that don't work.

[Elizabeth Day]

I was about to say it's actually really great therapy for someone who needs approval. I'm talking about myself here.

[Tom Ellis]

Yeah.

[Elizabeth Day]

It's so good, because there's just nothing you can do to control the approval or otherwise of your cat.

[Tom Ellis]

Not at all. They're completely of their own mind, and they can make you feel wonderful, but they can also make you feel just, like, terrible and needy. But that is that they are. They. They can't believe that we've brought this little baby into the house, and they just. They still can't handle it. They don't like Dolly at all.

[Elizabeth Day]

Oh, no. Does Dolly like them?

[Tom Ellis]

Oh, Dolly loves them. One of her first words has been kitty.

[Elizabeth Day]

Oh, my gosh.

[Tom Ellis]

And she. I mean, the game that happens every morning in the house is that the cats will be up. We'll go downstairs. When Dolly wakes up, she'll see them, run towards them, get about a foot away, and then they'll run away and disappear under our bed until she goes to bed at night.

[Elizabeth Day]

Well, you know what's great is that she's growing up not to be a people or a cat pleaser.

[Tom Ellis]

That's true.

[Elizabeth Day]

So she'll grow up with her own sense of self and validation and identity and all of that. Tom Ellis, it's been a real pleasure talking to you.

[Tom Ellis]

Oh, it's been lovely. Thank you.

[Elizabeth Day]

Thank you so much for coming on how to Fail. Please do follow how to Fail to get new episodes as they land on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, Amazon Music, or wherever you get your podcasts. Please tell all your friends this is an Elizabeth Day and Sony Music Entertainment original podcast. Thank you so much for listening.