Achieving Financial Independence as a Late Starter w/ Bill Yount #1139

Summary

How to Money — Episode #1139

Achieving Financial Independence as a Late Starter w/ Bill Yount
Released: May 13, 2026
Host: Joel (with Matt in the intro/outro)
Guest: Dr. Bill Yount, ER physician & host of "Catching Up to FI"

---

Episode Overview

Main Theme:
This episode focuses on achieving financial independence (FI) for “late starters”, featuring Bill Yount, an emergency room physician who only began his FI journey at age 50. Bill shares his personal story—his financial mistakes and wake-up calls—and offers hard-earned advice and encouragement to others discovering financial literacy later in life. The conversation emphasizes that while starting early is best, it’s never too late to take control, make intentional changes, and catch up, regardless of age.

---

Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Bill's Story: From High Earner to Struggling Saver

• Financial Negligence Until 50:
  As a physician, Bill spent decades with “money in, money out” habits, feeling the “rich doctor syndrome” but building little wealth.

  “We literally lived paycheck to paycheck as doctors, as high income professionals. … I was full of shame, regret, rather remorse and anger when I woke up.” — Bill, (06:19)

• Lifestyle Inflation & Societal Pressures:
  Bill describes succumbing to “I deserve it” thinking, succumbing to debt and American consumerism.

  “More money, more problems, honestly, in our case.” — Bill, (11:09)

• The Wake-Up Call:
  Hitting age 50 and facing burnout and a malpractice lawsuit forced Bill to reassess, compounded by high debt and little saved or invested.

  “I had to learn the language [of finance] fast.” — Bill, (15:30)

2. Mistakes Made Along the Way

• Bad Financial Products Early:
  Buying inappropriate insurance and taking advice from sales-driven “advisors”; accumulating debt.

• “House Poor” & Lifestyle Creep:
  Overspending on homes, cars, and travel. Attempting costly home renovations right before the 2008 crash.

• Selling at the Wrong Time:
  Panicked and sold out equities at market lows.

  “Had we not made these mistakes, we could have retired ten years earlier.” — Bill, (10:48)

• Financial Ignorance:
  Even as a high-earning doctor, Bill didn’t know what net worth or a budget was until age 50.

3. Emotional & Psychological Barriers

• Shame and “Financial Trauma”:
  Bill calls Gen X a “lost generation,” facing unique obstacles amid the shift from pensions to 401(k)s and lack of earlier education.

• Letting Go of Regret:

  “That feeling of feeling late is terrible. … You gotta let the past go. We all have our own financial trauma.” — Bill, (12:25)

• The Power of Community:
  Bill stresses FI is not a solo journey:

  “Grab arms, get advice, and do it together.” — Bill, (13:25)

4. Turning the Ship: Strategies for Catching Up

• Geoarbitrage:
  Moved from Chicago to Tennessee (lower taxes/costs, higher income).

  “Geo-arbitraging and then downsizing into a house … it was like the great shrinking game.” — Bill, (18:46)

• Downsizing with Purpose:
  Moving to a smaller home (4500 sqft to 2500), selling possessions—including a “YOLO” boat and creatively finding new homes for things.

  • Emotional process: Leaned on “the joy of missing out” and making downsizing a positive experience.

  “We had a piano … we found a school that needed one. They sent us a video of the kids singing Christmas songs, and I literally cried.” — Bill, (22:31)

• Tightening the Budget & Increasing Income:
  Cut expenses, increased work hours, and prioritized a high savings rate (up to 40%).

• Key Levers:

  • Drastic savings rate is the biggest lever for late starters.
  • Both spouses aligned and contributed incomes.
  • Used retirement vehicles like Solo 401(k)s to maximum effect.

5. Actionable Advice for Late Starters

• Debt vs. Investing:

  • “Any debt over 7%, pay it off with your hair on fire.” — (29:12)
  • Don’t miss 401(k) matches or emergency funds, but prioritize higher interest debt payoff first.
  • Use avalanche or snowball methods for debt as fits your psychology.

• Investing Approach:

  • Keep it simple: “Two or three funds—all equities for potentially ten-year horizons, then transition to safer assets nearer retirement.”
  • Track your progress; use apps to aggregate and see payoff timelines.
  • Start before you’re an expert—action trumps paralysis.

  “You don’t need to be an expert before you start. Just jump in and you’ll work your way through it.” — Bill, (32:20)

• Finding Balance:

  • Don’t become “rice and beans” frugal; 25–40% savings rate is aggressive enough for most.

  “Don’t give up time for dirty money … the most important thing you can buy with money is time, freedom with your loved ones, experiences.” — Bill, (33:28)

  • Avoid going overboard (e.g., moving to rural Alabama unnecessarily).

• Avoiding Comparison:

  • Tune out “financial porn”/media stories of 30-somethings retiring early—that’s not your timeline, and that’s okay.
  • Find your tribe (e.g., Bill’s “Catching Up to FI” podcast/Facebook group).

• Income vs. Frugality:

  • Cut expenses to values-based levels, but growing income is key for catching up.

6. On Financial Advisors

• Do-it-Yourself Early:
  DIY and learn the basics—accumulating wealth can be simple.
• Get Advice at Transitions:
  Hire a flat-fee fiduciary for complex transitions or decumulation planning; not asset-based high-fee “advisors.”

  “I didn’t want to pay $40–50,000/yr for advice … I ended up paying $8,700, and that to me is an insurance policy.” — Bill, (41:29)

• Advisor as Backup:
  Ensure smooth wealth management for non-financial spouses or in case of decline.

7. Supporting the Next Generation

• You cannot get a retirement loan—prioritize your own retirement over paying all of kids’ college expenses.

  “Your financial independence is a gift to your children for their own financial independence.” — Bill, (43:39)

• Save early in 529s if possible; teach kids to minimize debt and seek scholarships, grants, and practical college paths.
• “It’s okay to have skin in the game and take out reasonable loans, but be smart with borrowing limits.”

8. Transitioning to Retirement & Beyond

• Transition Gradually:
  Partial retirement or fewer shifts is healthier than “cliff” retirement, both financially and emotionally.

  • Use leverage of FI to negotiate better work terms.

  “All the things you want to do outside of work… start crowding out work. … FI is leverage.” — Bill, (54:38 & 56:39)

• Purpose After FI:
  Retirement should be about contribution, community, and joy—not just “net worth to the moon.”

  • Avoid “underspending/underliving risk.”
  • Focus on total well-being: mental, social, physical, financial, spiritual.

• Risk Parity Portfolio:
  Bill prefers a “risk parity” approach for decumulation—lower drawdowns and higher sustainable withdrawal rates (~5%), letting him retire earlier with less worry.

---

Notable Quotes

• On Financial Shame:

  “I came out of the closet of financial shame…nobody’s speaking to the older population—Gen X is the lost generation.” — Bill, (11:55)

• On Mindset Shifts:

  “You don’t have to throw stuff away. You can find a home where your trash is their treasure.” — Bill, (23:26)

• On the Late Starter’s Superpower:

  “We made mistakes, but the message is: it’s never too late to start. … You can always catch up to FI.” — Bill, (07:44)

• On FI and Life:

  “You may not be the richest person in the graveyard, but you have a secure [withdrawal rate]…you have bought back time.” — Bill, (53:01)

• On Over-Frugality:

  “Don’t let money necessarily inhibit you from doing things that you can’t get back.” — Bill, (59:00)

• On Legacy:

  “Work 20 for the money, pay off your debt in 5, work 15 to FI, and then the rest for joy.” — Bill, (60:13)

• On Health:

  “Focus on your health. There’s no point in having money if you don’t have healthspan that is almost as long as your lifespan.” — Bill, (61:21)

---

Timestamps for Key Segments

• Introduction to Bill & “Craft Beer Equivalent” (Personal Joys): 02:42–03:30
• The Latte Factor Mindset: 03:42–04:25
• Bill’s Personal Story & First Wakeup Call: 05:08–08:15
• Financial Mistakes (insurance, houses, markets): 08:43–11:09
• Psychology/Shame of Late Starting: 11:55–13:40
• Gen X & 401(k) Shift: 13:40–14:40
• Turning Things Around: Geoarbitrage, Downsizing, Emotional Process: 18:44–23:46
• Specific Advice for Late Starters (Debt vs. Investing, Savings Rate): 29:12–33:07
• Overdoing the FI Catch Up: 33:07–34:34
• The Role of Community/Comparison Trap: 34:34–35:55
• Income Growth vs. Frugality: 36:31–38:58
• Financial Advisors: When/Why, How Much: 38:58–42:12
• Paying for Kids’ College, Legacy Advice: 43:30–47:40
• Emotional Benefits & Life Outside FI: 51:12–54:14
• Retiring Gradually & Using FI as Leverage: 54:38–57:07
• Advantages & Lessons for Late Starters: 58:27–60:13
• Final Thoughts — Prioritize Health: 61:21
• [Outro & Host Reflections]: 62:48–end

---

Memorable Moments

• Bill gifting his family’s old piano to a school and receiving a video of kids singing “We Wish You a Merry Christmas” (23:26)
• “YOLO” boat and slip story illustrating both financial mistake and creative asset use (19:59)
• Bill’s detailed honesty about personal mistakes and shame—a powerful encouragement for others who feel “behind”
• Joel and Bill’s warm rapport and moments of humor, philosophy, and deep empathy for listeners feeling overwhelmed or behind

---

Practical Tips & Takeaways

• It is never too late — you can “catch up” with intense, value-driven changes, especially in higher income years.
• Forgive yourself, let go of shame, and seek community—it’s a collective journey.
• Make your late-life FI journey about buying time, improving well-being, and giving back—not just hoarding money.
• Balance is key: avoid both YOLO and over-frugality—’joy of missing out’ matters.
• Learn enough to take action, don’t get stuck in endless research.
• Support your kids’ future by prioritizing your own financial security.

---

Resources

• Catching Up to FI Podcast: [search wherever you listen]
• Books Mentioned: “Automatic Millionaire” by David Bach, “If You Can” by Bill Bernstein, writings by Mr. Money Mustache
• How to Money resources: howtomoney.com/advisor (for vetting advisors), newsletter, etc.

---

Bill’s parting advice:

“Focus on your health because there’s no point in having money if you don’t have healthspan that is almost as long as your lifespan.” — Bill, (61:21)

---

A must-listen for anyone feeling late or left behind on financial independence—a compassionate, practical, and hopeful conversation.

Transcript

[Bill Yount]

This is an iHeart podcast. Guaranteed.

[Joel]

Human AI is everywhere these days, but Wix Harmony stands out. It's an AI website builder that helps create any type of site while still allowing full freedom to edit everything manually. That means you're not limited to what AI generates.

[Matt]

Plus, there is an AI agent named Aria to help along the way. Try it for [e-mail] harmony that's wix.com harmony.com is it just me, or is it getting really hard to figure out the best way to save for retirement? Well, Fidelity can help you to find clarity. So you can save the best way for you. With a free personalized plan, goal tracking, and timely insights, you'll be set to take on retirement your way.

[Joel]

Get [e-mail] future expenses charged by your investments and other costs and fees associated with trading or transacting in your account. Apply Fidelity Brokerage Services member nyse SIPC

[Matt]

let's say you've always wanted to take a spontaneous trip to the Caribbean. Well, here's the thing. If you get smart with your money, you can do things like that. With Empower, you can start making the most out of your money so you can go out and live a little. Isn't that why we work so hard to have some fun with our money? Like treating yourself to something special or

[Joel]

spontaneously doing something extra for a loved one? Man. So use Empower and get good at money so you can be a little bad. Join their 19 million customers [e-mail] not an empowered client, paid or sponsored. Welcome to How To Money. I'm Joel, and today I'm talking about achieving financial independence as a late starter with Bill Yount. So the vast majority of how to Money listeners are Gen Z and millennial people who are starting early. They're taking the bull by the horns. But that's not true for everyone in our audience, and it's certainly not true for the average American. My guest today, man, he didn't even start thinking about financial independence until age 50. But he made up for lost time in a big way. And now he's helping thousands of other late starters do the exact same. Bill Yount is an emergency room physician. He's on a mission to help people escape the rat race, to live more balanced lives and to reclaim their time. His podcast, it's called Catching up to Fi. It's packed with practical wisdom for anyone who feels like they're late to the game. Like, you found out of Money and you're like, I feel like you're speaking another language and I need Some additional help. So Bill is doing just that for that segment of the population. Bill, thanks for joining me today, Joel.

[Bill Yount]

It's really fun to be here with you today. Thank you for taking our message for late starters out to your audience.

[Joel]

I love. I mean, I'm happy to because, like, there are so many late starters, Bill. We're going to talk about that. That is the norm. Right. So if you're only talking to people in their 20s, some things you're missing a huge segment of the audience who the light bulb hits when they hit the age of 40, 45, maybe 50. But first question for you, of course, is what's your craft beer equivalent? What are you spending egregiously on while you're still doing the smart stuff? You're saving, investing for your future.

[Bill Yount]

Well, my favorite craft beer is Meisel's Weizen beer from Germany, but my daily go to is my Matcha green tea latte. I'm a bit of an addict for this antioxidant. So, you know, it's a daily habit for me. And I have one right here in front of me today.

[Joel]

I love it. Is that you make it at home or you go get it somewhere.

[Bill Yount]

Yeah, well, I'm not completely fi about it. I have a little bit of a latte factor addiction with the Starbucks matcha latte, but, you know, I'm working on that.

[Joel]

That was the latte factor. That was the name of a book. Right. I don't know if you' read it, but it was so popular, like, the author went on Oprah. How do you think of kind of that latte mindset or the avocado toast? What's your take on that? I feel like it's very polarizing.

[Bill Yount]

Yeah, that's David Bach, and he's out there in the community. He just updated the Automatic Millionaire, and we're looking forward to having him on the show as well. But the latte factory, that's about small things add up over time to like a leaky bucket where if you don't plug all these little holes, you may not be saving and investing as much as you should be. And it's amazing how little things compound up to a big number that if invested over time, can really buy back your freedom a lot sooner.

[Joel]

Yeah, yeah. But then there's also that kind of like judgmental looking at somebody askance for a small joyful decision they made intentionally. Like, that's not. That's not the point of it either. Right. So got to find. Got to find that balance. That's what hopefully the craft beer equivalent is for people. All right, let's get. Let's get into your story. Bill, like you, I know this is a big question, but as long as I've known you, you've been a money nerd. Maybe even call you a money savant. You're like, you're really. There's a lot of brilliance and a lot of intentionality. What took so long? Why do you feel like you. For so many decades, there was very little of that in your life?

[Bill Yount]

Yeah, it's really interesting. Yeah. As you said, I'm an emergency physician, and I spent the decade of my 20s in school, kind of in deprivation mode, earning very low amounts. And through residency, I garnered up a lot of credit card debt because I felt I deserved these vacations to Jamaica that I couldn't really afford. So I exited residency with like $30,000 of credit card debt. And this delayed gratification thing just took hold right out of the gates. There was kind of the big house, the big car, the whole. I call it the rich doctor syndrome. It's like this pen dire. And then all of a sudden, it takes hold. And then we grounded a family. We had kids, and we didn't have a money mindset at all. It was kind of like money in, money out, spend it first, save it later. And we had it all flipped backwards. So literally, for 20 years, we were in this funnel of raising kids, enjoying life, creating experiences, buying things probably more than we should have, and spending too much on the big rocks like houses, cars, and travel. So that, you know, I got to 50 and I woke up and realized, nobody's coming to save me. It's on me, man. And I'm about, I want to retire. And there were a lot of other factors that played a role in my wake up that we probably should talk about too, because, you know, a lot of people have money trauma, and I had my own trauma. So we literally lived paycheck to paycheck as doctors, as high income professionals. My wife is also a physician, and it's really embarrassing. I was full of shame, regret, rather remorse and anger when I woke up.

[Joel]

How pervasive do you think the I deserve it mindset is? Because that trip to Jamaica, I deserve it. That's kind of what created that credit card debt, created the inability or unwillingness to think about the future save and invest. It seems like in a country as rich as the United States, people don't want to hear it. It sounds a little judgmental, but how pervasive is the I deserve it? That's why I'm going to do it. And I'm just, you know, consequences be damned.

[Bill Yount]

Well, we live in a society that is numb to debt. Debt is a part of life. It's a way to live life. But it's not a healthy way to live life, as I certainly found out and many Americans do. We don't have a debt free scream for nothing. So why we live in a consumer culture, you know, we live in a consumption society. We're the biggest economy in the world. Part of the reason is we buy most of the things in the world and things don't make you happy. Experiences do. And I don't have a ton of regrets about being a late starter in the end because we did spend money on experiences with our kids and travel. And so the superpower of a late starter is that we live life. We made mistakes, but the message is it's never too late to start. It's always a good time to start. And you can always catch up to five. We did it in 10 years when I woke up. It's not easy. It is definitely not easy. And it can be very painful. And it's much better if you spread it out over a more balanced lifetime. But it's doable. That's our message.

[Joel]

Yeah, let's go down the road of some of the mistakes you made. Not, not to rub your nose in them, Bill. That's not my goal here. But you share them of your own free, free will because you want other people to, to take, to learn from like your experience. Could you share maybe some of the mistakes that you made that, my goodness, you're like, if I could have taken that one back or back, and if my mindset had been a little bit different back then, it would have really changed my trajectory.

[Bill Yount]

Yeah. Well, we got one lecture about personal finance in med school. I got nothing from my parents, Nothing in college. Very common story. The one lecture from was a Northwest Mutual salesman. It was from a quote unquote advisor that was out there to sell his disability and whole life insurance policy. So right out of the gates, I bought a high cost disability and whole life insurance policy. Had no idea what I'd done. I gave my money over to him, did not take control of it. Thought that person, that salesman would take care of me. Well, there are lots of conflicts there and I learned that much later. So right out of the gates, I bought things that I didn't even really underwrite from my own personal finance space. And then it just, like I said, it snowballed from there with Houses and rebuilding houses, spending way too much on housing and realizing that I was or not realizing that I was house poor and had not created the gap using the lever of a lower, more reasonable, just big enough house to save and invest that difference. And then there were the new cars and leases. We just didn't pay cash for used cars. We felt the need to have, you know, our forever home which ended up really sinking us for a long time. I talk about the trifecta of mistakes. In around 2007, 2008 we had a hundred year old home that needed a paint job. Well, a paint job turned it into a whole gut rehab. I mean we dumped money into this house and guess what? The market crashed the next year and we were underwater. So we were house poor, had a huge mortgage and no gap, we had no savings mindset. And at the same time when the market crashed in the great financial crisis we got scared and talked to our at this point our money was in a private bank who did not advise us, just you know, skimmed their aum and and didn't save us from the fact that we got scared at the market bottom in 2008 and sold equities to buy bonds. So we were house poor. We had sold out and de risk things and missed out on a good bit of the bull market that happened thereafter with no savings gap and in bonds for far too long. So yeah, we could have retired 10 years earlier if we hadn't made these mistakes. But it's okay, people do make mistakes. We made some big ones with big zeros and more money, more problems honestly in our case. But you know, we recovered after the wake up. You get very intentional and you get your mindset right. It's amazing how fast you can get to five if you really put your mind to it.

[Joel]

I think it's really important what you just said there too. Everyone makes mistakes and I think the average person feels like an idiot, right. And they, and they beat themselves up and it almost like creates a situation where mistakes are easier to come by because you haven't faced it head on and you haven't just been willing to admit it and say man, I really messed that one up. And we all do it. So it's not, there's no reason to feel shame or to, or to really rake yourself over the coals. There's a lot of power I think actually that comes from being able to say it out loud. It actually allows you to move on.

[Bill Yount]

Well, that's why I did it. That's why I came out of the Closet of financial shame. Three or four years ago it was into our journey, but I was like, you know, nobody's speaking to the older population that is Gen X. You talked about millennials and Gen Z. Well, Gen X is really my generation and I refer to them as the lost generation, as the silent generation. You know, it's kind of like a Rip Van Winkle generation. We didn't get the message of the 401k and the transition from defined benefit to divine contribution plan. I didn't get the savings message. So, you know, we are speaking to people that it is probably 40, 60% of the population. I mean, heck, 40% of our population lives off of just Social Security and retirement. There's something wrong with that. The average savers doesn't start saving for retirement until their early 30s. And people can feel late then. You can feel late at any time. It's amazing. Our audience actually spans 30 to 60 because of that. That feeling of feeling late is terrible. It really, you know, brings you down and you got to let the past go. We all have our own financial trauma. We are going to have it, whether it be a medical crisis, a financial crisis, a divorce. That's very common for late starters. And my mother was a late starter because of divorce. So it's. We are. But you're a very resilient human. You know, we're not perfect. We're not going to get money. Right. But we are incredibly resilient when we realize what we've done and empower ourselves with others grabbing hands with ours. The journey is not a solo journey. This is one where you grab arms, you get advice, and then you do it together. We always say, let's catch up to five together.

[Joel]

And I think you point out something that's also really important to mention because Gen Xers, they are kind of a lost generation in some way in that transition from pensions to 401ks. Right. And I feel like Gen Z has a lot more knowledge at their fingertips. Not all of it's good, but they have the at least the wherewithal. In so many ways. The concept of investing, doing it yourself is not nearly as foreign as it was 30 years ago. Yeah, index funds existed, but it wasn't ubiquitous and talking about them wasn't ubiquitous. In the same way, we didn't have legislation passed that automatically opts you into putting money into your 401k. So in a lot of ways you're right. That should even cause more cause to not beat yourself up. If you're in Gen X because you didn't have the tools at your disposal. You got to figure it out. Now. It's not necessarily an excuse, but it does mean it's an extra hurdle.

[Bill Yount]

Absolutely. I mean, there are lots of hurdles and everybody has their own journey. But there are very common features to the journey. The journey to fi is really the same no matter where you start. There are no magic buttons. You've got to do the work. You got to get your mindset right, get your plan together. The math should come last. You really got to get that savings investing mindset down. Intentional values based spending. And if you get that together and you're on the same page with your spouse, well, you're off to the races. Because once you've got the mindset, the math takes care of itself. Your journey to FI depends on your savings rate functionally and the market returns. And, you know, we've had the wind at our backs for the last 10 years. And we had a, we went from a single digit savings rate. That's my best calculation. I mean, folks, you have to realize at 50, I didn't know what a net worth was. I had no idea what a budget was. We had not done it. I could not speak the language of financial literacy at all. And I was highly educated in the medical field. I could take care of people's emergency health. But I had an emergency wealth problem and I had to learn the language fast.

[Joel]

Yeah, the language, it's like in so many things in life, when you learn the language a little bit, it can help you feel more at ease too, with a subject that on its surface feels complicated. What led to your personal finance awakening then, Bill? What was it in specific? Because you talked about some of the mistakes you made. I think at one point I heard you talk about a lawsuit. That man really messed you up. Was that kind of part of what led to I gotta change course here?

[Bill Yount]

Yeah, that was a part of it. I hit 50. It was an age related thing. And it was the fact that I'm in a field that's got a high burnout rate. We're one of the highest burnout rates in medicine and emergency medicine, It's a professional sport built for young people. And I woke up at 50 because of that. And. And then I got sued. Yeah, 50% of doctors get sued. And it's a business decision in many ways for the plaintiff, but for the defendant, it's very personal. And it feels, it makes you feel like you're a failure. And what's, what's amazing is in medicine we have a lot of Type A perfectionists with a little bit of OCD that have to be 1000%, right? Nobody bats a thousand in baseball. I mean, Ted Williams, he was what, 400 maybe? But we've got to get it right for people's health. You really, you don't want to make mistakes at all. But guess what? Doctors are human too. And it happened to me and I wanted out and I realized I couldn't get out. And I was sort of stuck in this higher income slot where our lifestyle requires this. I can't really pivot into a, you know, much lower income very easily. I've got to dig out of this hole. I need the bigger shovel. So I needed to regroup. I mean, there was therapy involved. I mean, I encourage people, you know, money. People with money problems might need therapy. And there are many therapists. There was support of my wife, there was support of my circle. And yeah, it dug out of it. It processed. Time did eventually heal all. But I had to figure out a way to continue working my same job because there was really no lateral movement in emergency medicine. That's it. I mean, you can go into administration, but you can't move laterally into other medical fields. And then, you know, there are certain ways out and there are a lot of doctors looking for ways out because our healthcare system is in shambles right now and burnout is pervasive, and that happens to people in the corporate world. The syndrome of burnout really manifests itself in all aspects of life and work, not just emergency medicine.

[Joel]

And then when that hits, what people realize, what you realized is I don't have any other options because financially speaking, I haven't created really any margin to fall back on. Even if I wanted to take a year off and figure things out, I can't do that. Like, I got to keep working to pay the bills I've racked up. So what were some of the immediate changes that you started to make that had the best bang for the buck?

[Bill Yount]

Well, we just felt it in our gut that something was wrong. We were, you know, I was commuting an hour a day, my wife was commuting. We were on this hedonic treadmill in the proverbial paycheck to paycheck rat race. And it just didn't feel good, it didn't feel healthy. And we had this feeling like we need to get out. Like an addict to drugs. It was like we need to get out of this environment. So we unintentionally geo arbitrage from Chicago to Tennessee and we lost all State taxes, cost of living went down and my salary went up. So all of a sudden we had a bigger gap. And my wife was able to go back to part time to full time work to sort of help with that gap. So our income definitely increased, our expenses definitely decreased. And so geo arbitraging and then downsizing into a house going from 4500 square feet to 2500 square feet, boy, was that painful. We had to get rid of all this kind of stuff. It was amazing how much stuff we had to get rid of and to squeeze back into a just big enough house, a just big enough life that wasn't too big for our. Even our incomes, which were substantial. So there was downsizing. It was like the great shrinking game.

[Joel]

You got rid of a boat too. What was the name of the boat, Bill?

[Bill Yount]

Oh, there you go. You paid attention, you did your research. Episode number one of our show when I came out of the closet was a boat named yolo. And we did move to Tennessee. We didn't get everything right and we ended up in a boating community. And the Jones effect took hold and we got a boat. And the name sort of symbolized our thoughts at the time, which was, you only live once instead of Jomo, the joy of missing out, which we eventually took on. But the one good thing about the boat, I have to say, is my wife was smart. Thank God for her. She said, you know, if we're gonna have a boat, we need to own the slip. Okay? So we took equity in the slip and we owned the lease. And over the six years that we owned the boat, which provided, by the way, great memories for our kids in high school. I mean, that's one of their fondest memories, is tubing with their friends behind this boat and going out and watching the solar eclipse from a boat. So at any rate, when we sold out, downsized even further and sold the boat, we also could sell the slip. And the returns on the slip, it had returned about 75% in six years. So the cost of the boat and its maintenance and refitting the engine, I mean, the first day of a boat is one of the owner's best days. And the last day of boat ownership is one of the best days. And it is a hole in the water into which you sink money or bust out another thousand every time there's an issue. But the cost of boat ownership was covered by the cost of the asset of the slip, which is the way to actually buy liabilities with assets. So it worked out okay in the end.

[Joel]

You just said you turned the fear of missing out into the joy of missing out. And I. I love that kind of mindset flipped. Like, instead of thinking about all the things you're giving up, be like, but what. I'm getting a lot of stuff doing this too. But I've also heard you say that it's hard to deflate once you've inflated. So talk to me about the emotional process of making those changes. You talked about how difficult it is to go from a 4500 square foot house to a 2500 square foot house. What was the emotional vibe between you and your wife like during those times?

[Bill Yount]

We were all on the same page, actually. And in the end, it was hard to do physically because we had ping pong tables, big sectional couches, too much furniture. And boy, Facebook Marketplace helped out a lot. And there's actually a great story here that I want to tell folks, because we had a piano that had been sitting collecting dust, like the huge paperweight in the house. We'd used it when the kids were kids, but we hadn't used it for years. And we were looking for a home for this thing, and we didn't want to just throw it in the garbage heap. This was just not appropriate. So it was Christmas time. We reached out to friends and we said, you know, we couldn't offload it onto the Joy of Music that, you know, distributes pianos to kids that want to learn piano for free. There was no market for it. Nobody wanted a piano anymore. They had keyboards. It was portable. Well, one of our friends in the school board said, well, there's this school in South Knoxville that has a choir, has a band, has all this stuff, but they have no piano. And we were like, great, let us. And then we'll send you the movers. We'll pick it up. And two days before we move, the piano was picked up, taken to the school, and all we asked was, you know, we'd love to come to a concert someday. A few weeks later, around Christmas time, they sent us a link to a YouTube video. And I literally cried when I saw this because it was the principal, the choirmaster, the entire choir and band around this piano, our piano. We found a home for a repurposed home, and they sang us, we wish you a merry Christmas. And we still have that video. So I encourage everybody out there to get creative with the solutions to downsizing. You don't just have to throw stuff away. You can find a home where your trash is their treasure.

[Joel]

I got more to get to with you. Bill really appreciated hearing your story. But man, I want to get into the specific advice that late starters need. We'll talk about that and more right after this.

[Matt]

For business owners and entrepreneurs, there is a constant challenge getting things done fast or done well. Why not have both? That's why wix Harmony stands out. It is an AI website builder that helps to create a website quickly without compromising your vision. A fully functional site can be built for any business just by describing the idea. Then you can choose to chat with AI or edit everything manually to get it exactly right.

[Joel]

There's also Aria, an AI agent available to answer questions or help complete tasks. And here's what makes it even better. Aria doesn't just live in a chat box. You can click anywhere on your site and ask her to make changes instantly. It's these details that make creating with WIX Harmony feel seamless.

[Matt]

That's right. Join millions of businesses already using Wix and try Wix Harmony for free at wix.com harmony that's wix.com harmony.

[Verizon/Fidelity/Wix Advertiser]

When your Internet drops, you drop it and then switch to Verizon LTE Business Internet. It has coverage your team and your customers can rely on, and it's easy to manage with plans that scale to you starting at $39 a month. Make the switch to reliable Business Internet. Starting Price for LTE Business Internet 25 Mbps Unlimited Data Plan with select Verizon Business smartphone plan. Savings term supply.

[Matt]

Let's say you've always wanted to take a spontaneous trip to the Caribbean. Well, here's the thing. If you get smart with your money, you can do things like with Empower, you can start making the most out of your money so you can go out and live a little. Isn't that why we work so hard to have some fun with our money? Like treating yourself to something special or

[Joel]

spontaneously doing something extra for a loved one.

[Matt]

Matt.

[Joel]

So use Empower and get good at money so you can be a little bad. Join their 19 million customers [e-mail] not an empower client, paid or sponsored. Talk with Bill. Bill, you're talking about achieving financial independence even if you're kind of late to the game and you didn't really take much action in the first couple decades of your career. Bill, you're a physician, right? And people assume that being a doctor automatically means you're rich. That is, I think, an assumption that's really, really hard to shake. You tell somebody, hey, I'm a doctor and man, I didn't like, I didn't have any savings I didn't have any money invested at the age of 50 or very little. People are going to be like, but come on, you make tons of money. How is that possible? Is that true or not? Like that assumption that people have in their minds that doctors are rich.

[Bill Yount]

Well, I want to dispel this problem because I call it the rich doctor syndrome. It's not the wealthy doctor syndrome. What people need to know is it is more money, more problems, more zeros, more problems. It actually incites lifestyle inflation more than it helps. And there's a reason that teachers are one of the best savers and become millionaires before doctors do. At any rate. Just guess for a second, Joel, what percentage of doctors at 60 don't have a million dollars?

[Joel]

Okay, I'm going to guess 65%.

[Bill Yount]

Well that's pretty high. 25%. We're a little better than that, but 25% and that's a lot because they have human capital of five to ten million dollars and they're not even saving with investing by 60, a million dollars. It's a real catastrophic problem. And there is a friend of mine, Jim, the white coat investor that has been working on this problem, but predominantly with the young med students and doctors in mid career. Nobody was talking to the doctors that had already, the dice were cast, the can was kicked down the road and they wake up like me 10, 20 years later and realize, oh my gosh, I've got this mountain of debt. I have really no net worth. I didn't know what it was, it was definitely under a million dollars. But what am I going to do? Because my spend, everybody's spend is different. I mean, give doctors some grace, honestly. Because yeah, in some ways we've earned our higher income but then we've garnered with it a lot of problems and we, our lifestyle may cost more than others, but it's okay because everybody's personal finance is personal and their life is their life. And so we shouldn't be judged for being high end professionals. And we are going to have these same problems as people with lower incomes and in some ways they're harder to fix. So woe is me. SMALL VIOLIN playing But a lot of doctors just don't get it right because not only that, the financial services industry has, you know, we have targets on our back. People are gunning for us like you wouldn't believe to sort of get us to buy products, financial products and you know, we fall for that and we don't keep things simple. Doctors tend to make it more complicated. And as we've learned personal finance and investing. You know, you can DIY it. It's really simple once you get the principles down.

[Joel]

I want to specifically talk about some of the things you guys talk about on the show and advice for late starters in particular. Talk to me for instance about debt payoff versus investing as a late starter. How do you help people think about which one to prioritize? Is it both at the same time? Is it like, man, you gotta, you gotta pay off the debt before you start contributing to the workplace retirement account. How are you helping people think through that?

[Bill Yount]

Yeah, I mean the mechanics of it tend to be the same as for anybody along the journey. But late starter, just evolving, get intentional and get going fast with it. I mean we went from being single digit savers to a 40% savings rate pretty much within a year. And we had to do that. We had to tighten our belts and get our savings. That's your big lever. And so that's what you got in a hurry. You got to get to some higher savings rate because that will dictate how long it takes you. Now we had some car debt and consumer debt and we, you know, any debt that's over 7%, you know, you've got to think about it like your hair is on fire and start paying that off. Don't miss your match. Don't forget your emergency fund of three to six months of expenses. Have those first so you can sleep at night. But then, yeah, pay off debt, you know, that's 7, 8% or more because that's a guaranteed return. But at the same time, don't miss your 401k match. And then as your debt gets paid off, whether you use the snowball or the avalanche doesn't really matter to me because there are a lot of emotional wins and just basing on the math can be hard. And I'm sure you've talked about these methods, but at any rate, once you get that down and then you shift that money into investing and pay it and pay off your debt aggressively. It's amazing how fast things snowball as the, you know, the, the investment snowball grows on the other side as your debt snowball takes care of itself. And then, you know, just keep a simple strategy. 1, 2, 3 funds 100% equities for maybe 10 years of the journey. And if you get, and if you get there in 10 years, then you got to transition to a more comfortable, conservative, retirement oriented portfolio because those are two different portfolios. And then just work the plan, just keep buying, buy through the sales. When the market crashes, keep buying. Escalate it as much as you can. Take all your wins and windfalls, your tax refunds, throw them in there, throw them on the fire as I say, and let them grow for you. Does that kind of answer your question? Or would you say there's other things we should be doing?

[Joel]

No, I mean, I think you're right. I think it's, it's the both end. You have to address both at the same time, which can feel a little daunting. Sometimes it feels easier to have a myopic focus and just be like, I'm clearing out debts first. But you really do need to kind of be strategic about it. Take out that scalpel. I'm using your language, Bill. Yeah.

[Bill Yount]

And you know, do is start tracking your money and you need to know where it's going. You need to fill the holes in the boat and sell off the debt. I mean, I happen to use an app and there are a lot of apps to do this where you aggregate your accounts and, and you can track, you can create your debt pay down timeline where you know, okay, if I do this, then I will be done at this time. And that really helps you. It's like a marathon, okay. You've got to train for it and then when you run it, you've got to pace yourself through it that you will hit the goal line, whether it be debt payoff or financial independence, which are numbers in and of themselves. But it helps to look at, okay, this is my trajectory. So that you know what you're up against and you know how long it's going to take if you can do this. We just had Bill Bernstein on, He wrote a 16 page pamphlet called if youf can. And all you gotta do is read that and you're on your way. It doesn't take much education to get on your way and get started. I was in analysis paralysis for a year. You can see behind me if you're on video like three or four bookshelves of finance books. I, for some reason I felt the need to be an expert before I started. You don't need to be an expert before you start. Just jump in and you'll work your way through it.

[Joel]

Take the bits of wisdom you have, implement those, garner more along the way. Do you think it is possible to go too hard in an attempt to make up for lost time? Do you find people who reach out? They were in a similar situation to where you were, Bill, they're 50 and they feel the need maybe to completely upend the apple cart and you're like, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa. You don't have to move to rural Alabama in order to achieve financial independence. Are some people just, they, they get the spark and they want to go too hard, maybe to their own detriment?

[Bill Yount]

Absolutely. I mean, we're all about living a balanced life. You know, this is a hero's journey where, you know, you got to live life along the way. And somewhere in the range of 25 to 50% savings rate, that's where the balance is. And over 40 or 50, it starts, it starts to get a little too harsh and it becomes a rice and beans Dave Ramsey catastrophe where, you know, yes, you should tighten your belts, yes, you should get it right. But you know, these are times where if you're in a partnership, you want to spend time with folks and with your kids and so you can't give up time for what I call dirty money. And I'm kind of earning dirty money now because I'm fine. And it's like, do I have to go to work? No. Do I really need the savings? No. But you know, retirement is a transition as well and, and you've got to know what you're buying. And one of the most important things, if not the most important thing you can buy with money is time, freedom with your loved ones, experiences. So no, I think you shouldn't get too frugal. It shouldn't be a rice and beans life because you only get one chance at this.

[Joel]

Yeah, life, man. You can figure out your money and it's important to do so because it influences your life. But you only get one of those two. Is there any traditional personal finance advice that maybe feels less relevant to late starters where someone were to tune into another money show and it's like, that's not quite hitting right because that's not the spot that I'm in.

[Bill Yount]

Yeah, I mean, what you find in the personal finance, financial independence domain is there's a lot of media porn or financial porn. We're out there. You know, you've got people in their 30s and 40s retiring and that just isn't you. That horse is out of the barn. And one of the things problems I had with in my 50s, but in the community there were people retiring at 50, 55, and they were all my peers, we were the same age and I was just getting started, but they were retiring. So yeah, that Jones effect was kind of hard. I was jonesing over that because, well, it is what it is. I've got to find my tribe because there are a lot of people like me out there. And we have, because of this, our podcast blew up and our Facebook group blew up because people are like, yes, you're talking to me. It's not all these young people that are retiring. And so it's important to acknowledge that, you know, people are at different phases of the journey at 20, 30, 40, 50. And it's okay, just find the people that can help mentor you in your position. You know, join our Facebook community, but talk to the people that are in the same situation because they'll have strategies and tactics and reassurance, inspiration and give you grace for all that's gone before. Let go of the past, focus on the present, and look forward to the future is what I would say.

[Joel]

Yeah, I think you're spot on. The community can be a supercharger. And I think your community is that for a lot of people. Right? Because it's like, I'm not alone. And then there's people who are like me, offering up great ideas or great insights or asking questions that make me think about my own situation and maybe revisit maybe some of the actions I'm taking. Frugalities Obviously an important part of the conundrum of moving past or growing wealth as a late starter. What about income growth? Which one should be focused on more? Do you think people should be more focused on cutting back or on earning more?

[Bill Yount]

Well, you've got to cut back and get down to sort of a reasonable values based spending modality. And Rose Lounsbury does a good job of that with her minimalistic approach. But you don't have to be too minimalistic. Growing the income is really where it's at. That's where you really increase the gap. And for us, my wife went back to full time work. We saved every penny she earned. And it's, it's, you know, it's a marriage is a business too. You've got to look at it that way and you're in it together. So we did that and we lived off my salary and so that gave us our 40, 45% savings rate right away. That was how easy it became. Fortunate for us, we're independent contractors and we had access to solo 401ks, which allowed us to really sock it away. Unlike sort of a traditional W2 approach where the overflow has to go in to say, taxable. And I'm sure you've talked about that. But for us, we were able to really hit it hard pre tax, save on taxes and tax arbitrage all the way along. And we thought it would take 13 years from 50 to 63 or so. That's kind of how it mapped out, but with the way the markets performed and with the amount we were saving. Boy, we were surprised last fall when we actually. Whoa, Traitor to the DIY movement. Engaged with the financial advisor. Oh my goodness. And we did it the right way. I used AI to find a fee only flat fee fiduciary planner that had an approach from a life planning standpoint, the George kinder, but also from a portfolio construction standpoint. We use risk parity. And he had both things that I wanted. And we found him, engaged with him. We ran the numbers and he told us, you're phi. And I was shocked. I was like, no, that can't be true. The math doesn't math. It wasn't supposed to math for another three years. And I still don't really believe it. And that's where I think the one more year syndrome comes in. Because it takes a while to digest this where you're kind of like comfortable emotionally with, okay, we can transition into this because now rather than being frugal and saving reasonably, you have to learn to spend, which is a whole new lever, and live off of a paycheck you create as opposed to that security blanket of active income. Now the challenge for us is dialing down the active income as we dial up the passive income and make a two to three year transition out of formal work.

[Joel]

I was going to dive into financial advisors next. Do you think you didn't go there immediately though, Right. This is something you went to more recently, do you think? Late starters think especially maybe because it feels like a big mountain to climb or it feels like the knowledge gap is significant. The easy button feels like hiring a financial advisor. And maybe that's not the best route to go, at least at the very beginning.

[Bill Yount]

Well, yeah, you got to speak the language first and it takes a while to learn it. And as I said before, diying accumulation is pretty easy. And it's actually important because you're saving yourself money. You're throwing it at the gap. You don't. You may need an advisor at critical transition points for a flat fee project, like, hey, I'm buying a house or I'm doing a rental property. How does that math for us? I want to make sure I don't have any blind spots. So it is okay. You don't have to be hardcore diy. You're going to need advice, you're going to need help, but you got to know what you're paying for. Pay a reasonable amount for it. And shop is a very, you know, intelligent customer. Buyer beware, right? 90% of the industry, unfortunately is still kind of, you know, assets under management and selling you things. But 10% of the industry and growing are the people you want to find. And I actually used AI with a very long prompt to find my person. And I'll be honest with you, I didn't want to pay 40 or $50,000 a year for advice. That was just too much. I ended up paying $8,700 a year for advice or $700 a month. And that to me is an insurance policy. There's many reasons I did this. I wanted to know, first of all, could I cancel disability and life insurance? Were we at that point? The answer was yes. Okay, we were self insured. We didn't need to have life insurance anymore. We didn't need a disability policy anymore. And guess what? The cost of the advisor was less than those two policies. So it was a net positive or a wash. And I'm happy to do this because my wife is not interested in the spreadsheets or the money or the management of it. And I need to plan for her. So it's functionally a life insurance policy for me because were I to pass away, it's now a seamless transition for her to somebody who's going to take care of her and the money management. And it's really important to create this relationship before the emergency happens. It also takes care of cognitive decline. I'm not going to be as sharp. I'm already not as sharp as I want to be. And it takes care of life. Bandwidth issues. I don't want to focus on the money. I want to focus on life. Let somebody else worry about the math and navigating all the balls in the air that you have in your 60s with optimizing IRMAA and Social Security and tax efficiency over your lifetime. There are so many emotional and mathematical things that you can offload onto an advisor, you know, and you know, not everybody can afford it. And in my case, it's a critical part of our financial plan.

[Joel]

But at some point, some people, after you've done the diy, you've learned the basics and you've done well for a long time and you've saved up a decent nest egg like you said, like the savings you can achieve. Maybe it's taxes, maybe it's being able to ditch an insurance policy. Maybe it's just knowing about potential hurdles that are coming up that could cost you big money, that you're not aware of. At some point it can make sense to get the financial advisor. But we've talked about this on the show before as well. It's crucial to hire the right one and make sure incentives are aligned. At howtomoney.com, howtomoney.com advisor, we've partnered with Wealthramp and Wealthramp does an amazing job at vetting fee only fiduciary advisors. That's a good place to turn if you don't want to go to AI like Bill. Bill, what about the next generation? You've got twins. I've heard you say that you paid for their college. Given your desire to reach financial independence, that's such a big expense, right? To to take that onto your own shoulders as you're trying to like pull yourself up by your bootstraps. Figure it out for yourself. Do you feel like that is an obligation that most parents should take on and how badly does it deter people maybe feeling like they have to do more than they need to for, for their kids while they're still trying to figure out their own finances? Yeah.

[Bill Yount]

And this is a big issue for late starters that may not have save for college and it's a values decision and hopefully you've made this decision early in life before you've had kids even. But for late starters that haven't saved for college, you know, you can't get a loan for retirement. You've got to put your oxygen mask on. You got to take care of yourself. Because what I didn't realize is your financial independence is a gift to your children for their own financial independence and that is critical. You don't want them to have to take care of you and harm their finances just because you didn't get it right. And I've seen that happen and people have had to do it and you know, you do what you do. It's family is family. It's important. But you know, saving for your kids, college education is a retirement part of your retirement plan and it is a gift. You give your kids, say, a debt free education that sets them off on the right foot for their journey. Things like helping them buy a used car with cash, things like paying for their education. And then we do even creative things now that refi with helping them build wealth in their 20s when they have the least amount of money to save but the most opportunity with regards to filling buckets for their journey of compounding for 30 and 40 years. So generational wisdom, generational wealth is really important to me. Get started early. Get your 529 accounts open, fund them little by little along the way. And then you got to make decisions about what are the values of college. Okay, you can go to community college and it's okay. And in Tennessee it's free and you can transfer to your state college. That's a college hack. You got to get your kids leverage and engage with getting scholarships. You've got to work towards grants. We've talked to Ron Lieber, we've talked to Chris Corinthian, we've talked to somebody who's a 529 expert because these things decisions are huge retirement decisions. And it's okay not to be able to pay for your kids college. It's okay for them to leverage loans to increase their income with a college education. They have to be reasonable. I recommend that you don't more than 1x your loans over what your starting salary is. And you've got to kind of plan for that. I mean my kids are earning 50 to 60 thousand dollars. You should not have more than 40 or 50 thousand dollars in loans if that's going to be the case. That is irresponsible. And that's a, you know, you can't bankrupt student loans. So you've got to on the front end, you know, realize that, okay, it's okay for them to have skin in the game even if it's debt, if I can't pay for everything, but don't let it get out of control. You got 18 year olds that can't make these decisions alone. So what are your thoughts on that, Joel?

[Joel]

Yeah, well, I was going to say I think that advice, being able to help them think through those things and not create a mistake, a self own, that's massive and it's going to impact them for the next two decades. That's potentially more helpful than just saving up on their behalf. And so I think, yeah, you learning on your own bill, implementing it into your life, like they see that example and they're more likely to follow the example than even just what you say. But then you can say, hey, listen, as somebody who screwed things up and is trying to make progress, let me tell you, if you graduate with $150,000 in student loan debt, you will regret it. Let's look at all these other ways to accomplish getting this degree because that's what you want, because you want to work in this field and without, without doing something that's going to like just be an impediment for many, many years.

[Bill Yount]

Yeah, I mean go to public schools, support your state schools, support Your community colleges, you can get what you need without paying $100,000 a year. You really can. And it's gotten so out of control that, you know, our state school is busting at the seams because people realize this. You know, all the doctors are sending their kids to state school. Hopefully they're not sending their kids to private school and you know, taking that hit on the front end to their own retirement. What you don't realize is your decisions in the present day have compounding effects for everybody in your life, not just you.

[Joel]

And I just want to say I think feeling the obligation to pay for your kids school. Like you said, there are no loans for retirement, but there are for college. There are scholarships. No scholarships for retirement, but there are for college. And so there are a lot of ways to pay for college. Convince your kid to become an ra, right, Like a resident assistant. That's what I did in college to lower the cost or there's on campus or off campus jobs. There are all sorts of ways to reduce that debt or to maybe even eliminate it. And just assuming you have to do it the way everyone else does, that's not necessarily true. I got more I want to get to with you, Bill, including like how you're thinking about decumulating and ditching work. We'll talk about. Give us some questions on that right after this.

[Matt]

For business owners and entrepreneurs, there is a constant challenge. Getting things done fast or done well. Why not have both? That's why Wix Harmony stands out. It is an AI website builder that helps to create a website quickly without compromising your vision. A fully functional site can be built for any business just by describing the idea. Then you can choose to chat with AI or edit everything manually to get it exactly right.

[Joel]

There's also Aria, an AI agent available to answer questions or help complete tasks. And here's what makes it even better. Aria doesn't just live in a chat box. You can click anywhere on your site and ask her to make changes instantly. It's these details that make creating with Wix Harmony feel seamless.

[Matt]

That's right. Join millions of businesses already using Wix and try Wix Harmony for [e-mail] harmony. That's wix.com harmony.

[Verizon/Fidelity/Wix Advertiser]

When your Internet drops, you drop it and then switch to Verizon LTE business Internet. It has coverage your team and your customers can rely on and it's easy to manage with plans that scale to you. Starting at $39 a month. Make the switch to reliable business Internet starting price for LTE business Internet, 25 Mbps unlimited data plan with select Verizon business smartphone plan. Savings term supply.

[Matt]

Let's say you've always wanted to take a spontaneous trip to the Caribbean. Well, here's the thing. If you get smart with your money, you can do things like that. With Empower, you can start making the most out of your money so you can go out and live a little. Isn't that why we work so hard to have some fun with our money, like treating yourself to something special or

[Joel]

spontaneously doing something extra for a loved one man. So use Empower and get good at money so you can be a little bad. Join their 19 million customers [e-mail] not an Empower client, paid or sponsored. All right, we're back from the break. Still talking with Bill Yount. We're talking about reaching financial independence even when you start late. And I think that hopefully more than anything, this is just encouraging to people because you can do all the wrong things for a long time or not do all the wrong things, but just not be the get up and go. I started my, you know, putting 20% into my 401k at age 22. You're not in the fire community. That's okay. That's okay. And you can still reach financial independence. You can still live an awesome life and be successful with your finances. I think that's a huge part of Bill's message. And Bill, we've talked about this just a little bit, but money's not the end all, be all. How has, I'm curious, figuring out your finances and being more purposeful and intentional with your money, how has that impacted other areas of your life?

[Bill Yount]

Well, having this knowledge, having downsized, it takes a huge emotional weight off your life and it helps you live with purpose. Live your best life. You're not carrying around a hundred pound backpack anymore. You're a little lighter in the foot, you can run faster and you're a runner. So you understand this. It's had far reaching impacts. My mental health is better. My physical health needs a little work. That's an asset I haven't worked on as much as I should have. People don't realize that financial assets are only one of the assets you want to build and compound in your life. There's social, emotional, psychological, community based, spiritually based assets. I mean, you talk about the spire philosophy of life and I really resonate with that. So money is not the be all, end all. It is not where you should lay your identity. You know, growing your net worth to the moon until you die is not in my mind a good life. People over identify with money and in order to live a balanced life, it's okay. And what I do to do this with my financial advisor is I use a particular portfolio called a risk parity portfolio, which that's a whole other story. But you may not grow your assets to the moon, but you're investing in all areas of weathers of the market. So if the market crashes in one area, you've got assets working in another area and you may not be the richest person in the graveyard, but you have a secure 5% withdrawal rate. And my point with the risk parity portfolio is if you really look into this and look to the back testing and engineers love this stuff and doctors love this stuff, and you find that you can exit the workforce at a lower nest egg net worth because you can safely withdraw 5% instead of 3.5 or 4%, which is really an underspending risk and under living risk, then you know what, you don't need to save an extra $500,000 or a million in your portfolio if you construct it properly for the purpose of a late starter exiting the workforce. And that's what it's done for me. I don't have to work another three or four years. And so in using this portfolio, I've bought back time. So I encourage people to look at how they structure their withdrawals and how they structure their portfolio. The simple path to wealth is not necessarily the simple path to wealth preservation. That is a whole different ball of wax. Your education needs to continue and it did for me. And I've had a lot of fun looking into this because I needed to be able to sleep at night knowing that, you know what, I'm not going to worry as much about market volatility and drawdowns of 50% that last three, five, 10 years. Even, you know, these risk parity portfolios, the drawdown is half as much, it's 20% and the length of the drawdown downs two, three, four years at most. So it bounces back. You're giving up on the upside a little bit, but you're really winning when you don't have as big of a downside.

[Joel]

And one of the other options that you've explored and you're doing now, you're working less, you've reduced the size of your paycheck. When did you feel like that was possible? And do you feel like that's a better way to transition into full retirement is to kind of ramp back on the hours A little bit. Get used to a smaller paycheck, and you're kind of easing into it instead of, like, all the way. Dive right in.

[Bill Yount]

Yeah. I mean, a lot of people talk about the one more year syndrome, and I don't think that's a bad thing. You haven't lost the game when you do that, you're absorbing, like we talked about before, the emotional nature of being fi. It does take one, two, or three years to really downshift. It's not a cliff. I mean, for some people, they're so burned out, they so want to get out that they go from, you know, 100 to 0. And I personally would have a hard time with that. As Fritz Gilbert talked about, 30 or 40% of immediate retirees end up depressed. And so I think transition is a natural one, mentally, physically, financially. And, yeah, immediately I cut two shifts. And what happens is when you create the life outside of work that's robust, that's going to sustain you from a structure and engagement standpoint, the soft sides of retirement are critical in some ways. 80% more critical than the 20% of math. And I created the podcast. I created this community. I am engaged with people talking about this. I want to transition from, you know, physical wellness, health care, to wealth care and financial wellness. This is my passion. And what you find if you do this is all the things you want to do outside of work. Start crowding out work because, you know, you don't have enough time to do the things you want. So, yeah, let's cut work and do this. So it gives you huge power for choice, autonomy, passion, and engagement. I mean, you become the mentor or the Yoda to the younger generation, you know, the Lukes of the world that are working their way through all the trials and tribulations of life. We just gave a class at University of Tennessee the other day. My co host, Jackie Kaminskowski, and I. And boy, I had goosebumps after that class because we had 30 students that were soaking this up. We're actually going to do a show with two or three of them coming on, answering all their questions. So this stuff is fun, but emotionally, it's a transition. It's a process. Realizing that enough is enough is hard. What is my enough? It's different for everybody, and the transition is different for everybody. No judgment here. If it takes me, I may work four shifts. Get it down. That's my goal. Get it down to four shifts. I'm going to negotiate day shifts only. No nights, no weekends, no holidays, because FI is leverage. I can tell them because their need is great. This is what I'm willing to do. And they're going to have to say yes. And if they don't say yes, I say, fine, I got a few money, I'll see you.

[Joel]

Do you feel more excited about your eventual retirement now that you've put in this work? Like, are you anticipating it in a way that maybe you used to dread it?

[Bill Yount]

Yes, absolutely. And it's, it's, it's. I'm not single, so it's not my decision alone. My wife works three or four days a week and who do I want to spend the most time with? Well, her. So she's got a transition also so that our lives sort of phase out and she's ready too, emotionally, physically. She's 62, I'm 60. You know, we're ready and guess what? We started at 50, but we're going to retire on the on time at 62 or 60, 63, like the average American. And I may work four shifts because of the value of the work relationships, the value I provide as a senior physician, experience to patients where I see things maybe the younger physicians don't. I handle them differently than they would. I. I walk into work every day and this is part of the hard part. The staff I work with says, oh boy, are we glad you're here now. We feel safe. You're going to do a great job. And there are some people that it's harder to work with and they're just glad I'm there. And that's hard to give up. It really is. Because identity is tied to many things in the workplace. Don't let it be money.

[Joel]

I don't think you would suggest Anybody, let's say 32 year old who's listening right now, you wouldn't be like, hey, just wait till you're 50 and you can make up for lost time and just live your life investing will be there two decades from now. You wouldn't suggest that anybody start late on purpose, but I'm curious, would you say that there are any advantages to it?

[Bill Yount]

The advantages are you've lived life, you've had experience, you've learned from the school of hard knocks, you have a lot of wisdom and you haven't overruled and given up things. You know, we talked to the mad fientist Brendan Ganchon and he was one of those that regretted being over frugal. He retired at 30 or whatever and one of the things he said was, you know, I chose not to go to a bachelor party of a dear Friend of mine because I didn't want to spend the money. And he regrets that decision where, you know what, that was an experience that doesn't come back again. That's not necessarily a YOLO experience. That's just, you know, show up for your friends and don't let money necessarily inhibit you from doing things that you can't get back. So, no, I mean, I don't care if you don't get it right in your 20s. Quite honestly, we're all exploring in our 20s, you know, they're being possessed by money, then what's wrong with you? But in your 30s, your early 30s, yeah, it's a good idea to get it going. I mean, if you get it going earlier and you have another decade of compounding and doubling, great. But most people start in their 30s, so you're like most people. And then I say work 20 for the money and the rest for joy. I think burnout hits everybody after the stage of mastery in, you know, 10, 15, 20 years. And that's at the point where you want to be able to transition. So, yeah, work hard, you know, use a balance saving rate of, say, 25% by that point. And then if you do that, you've got a 20 year trajectory according to the shockingly simple math of early retirement. But it's really retirement in general by our friend Pete Adney at Mr. Money Mustache. But work 20 for the money, pay off your debt in 5, work 15 to 5, and then the rest for joy. If you want to stay working, great. And we are driven to work. We are driven to give back value to the world. We are driven to give. And it is about giving because a purposeless life after retirement, you know, sitting at home watching tennis, well, why do you want to do that? You know, and it isn't all about travel either. You can only do that for so long. It's about changing the life or helping somebody, one other person, do what you dream of. Just get the math right first and then spend the next 20 or 30 years making a difference in people's lives in some way or the other with your time, with your money, giving back in a certain way.

[Joel]

I love it. And you can find the podcast catching up to Fi wherever you're listening to this podcast. Bill, anything else you want to mention to folks before we say goodbye?

[Bill Yount]

I would say focus on your health because there's no point in having money if you don't have, you know, health span that is almost as long as your lifespan. We talk about the savings gap and all that. Well, There's a gap in life where, you know, if, if you're not going to have a quality of life for 10, 20 years after and you still have the money, well, you know, then you've wasted life. So focus on your health. Make sure you take care of that asset because money is of no use to you unless your health span is almost as long as your lifespan.

[Joel]

Yeah. Good closing words, Bill. Thanks for joining me today, man. I really appreciate it.

[Bill Yount]

We could talk all day. This is fun. We got to have you on our show and do some of these things too because you're very philosophical about money. I love your message, I love your audience. The most recent show you had with Justin Peters on the spire and what you've done with a mini retirement and taking time in midlife to do these things and not waiting. I mean, I see people at 65 golden years come into the ER. I've got this little pain and I have to tell them they have terminal cancer. So yes, there's a little bit of yolo, there is a little bit of Jomo, as we said. But balance those things and take time for yourself, your family, your friends and don't focus on money too much.

[Joel]

MO staff appreciate you, Bill.

[Bill Yount]

Oh, that was fun. Let's do it again sometime.

[Joel]

Oh, man. Such a good conversation with my friend Bill Yount. And I just, man, I gotta say, the American reality is late starting to investing and our whole goal here at how to Money is to get people excited about the possibility of achieving financial independence and financial freedom at a much earlier age. But there is a huge need and for the work that Bill and Jackie are doing over on their podcast, there's just such a large segment of the population who doesn't get around to, who doesn't think about it, who doesn't see the need for it. That is starting to change for investing and thinking about their future money needs at an earlier age, like I said, that is starting to change a bit. I think that's even when you think about legislation that's being passed and how people are just younger folks are more aware and there's that kind of lost generation of Gen X who they didn't get the same education, they didn't have the same access to certain low cost funds or to just good information about how to invest wisely. And so it's a need. It's a need. So I'm glad Bill's out there. He's doing great work in this space and man, my big takeaway, I love what he said to work 20 for the money and then work for joy. That's such a good recipe. And he and I were talking for a while after we stopped recording, and I'm thinking we're talking about a lot of philosophical things, talking about the second mountain, right? Or what does it look like to have an impact beyond just how much money you can make. And the great thing is the further along you get in creating margin and reducing stress in regards to how you're interacting with and thinking about your finances, and the more you're building up a nest egg. And you have so much more of an ability to think about the work you do, whether it's highly paid work as an emergency room physician or it's very, very low pay work in the podcast that Bill does. But he has a massive impact. How can you impact the world? My goodness, it's so much easier to do that from a position of financial security than it is from a position of extreme financial vulnerability. So, yeah, just learn from Bill. Do as he says. And it's just a pleasure to get to talk to a guy who has, over the course of a decade, completely changed his life. And he's learned so much and he's taken it to heart and he hasn't just learned the nuts and the bolts. It's kind of baked in, in a lot of ways to who he is and the generosity that flows from Bill just in the knowledge that he's willing to share and actually just how he gives of so many things in his life. It's just a pleasure to watch. And I'm glad he's in the financial independence community. So if you want to learn more, please do, especially if you are late to the personal finance game. His Facebook group and his, his podcasts are particularly catered to people like you. And it's well worth listening to. Catching up to fi. All right, we'll have links in the show, notes up on the [e-mail] there's a bunch of other resources there too, if you're wanting to dig around and figure out, well, yeah, what did Matt and Joel think about this or that? Well, we've written a lot of stuff over the years, so please do check it out. Howtomoney.com, the Newsletter howtomoney.com Newsletter thank you as always, for listening. Until next time. Best friend out.

[Verizon/Fidelity/Wix Advertiser]

When your Internet drops, you drop it and then switch to Verizon LTE business Internet. It has coverage your team and your customers can rely on and it's easy to manage with plans that scale to you. Starting at $39 a month make the Switch to Reliable Business Internet Starting price for lte Business Internet 25 Mbps Unlimited Data Plan with select Verizon Business Smartphone plan. Savings terms apply.

[Matt]

Let's say you've always wanted to take a spontaneous trip to the Caribbean. Well, here's the thing. If you get smart with your money, you can do things like that. With Empower, you can start making the most out of your money so you can go out and live a little. Isn't that why we work so hard to have some fun with our money, like treating yourself to something special or

[Joel]

spontaneously doing something extra for a loved one? Matt so use Empower and get good at money so you can be a little bad. Join their 19 million customers [e-mail] not an empower client, paid or sponsored.

[Matt]

Is it just me, or is it getting really hard to figure out the best way to save for retirement? Well, Fidelity can help you to find clarity so you can save the best way for you. With a free personalized plan, goal tracking, and timely insights, he'll be set to take on retirement your way.

[Joel]

Get started at Fidelity. Com. Future expenses charged by your investments and other costs and fees associated with trading or transacting in your account. Apply Fidelity brokerage Services member NYSE SIPC

[Bill Yount]

this is an iHeart podcast. Guaranteed human.