Are Teachers Doomed to a Broke Retirement? w/ Shaun Morgan #1112

Summary

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Podcast Summary: Are Teachers Doomed to a Broke Retirement? w/ Shaun Morgan

Podcast: How to Money
Episode #: 1112
Date: March 11, 2026
Host: Joel
Guest: Shaun Morgan (Teacher, personal finance content creator, host of the Teacher Money Show)

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Episode Overview

This episode explores the persistent myth that teachers are destined for financial hardship or a broke retirement. Guest Shaun Morgan, a practicing teacher passionate about building wealth within the profession, dispels misconceptions and provides actionable strategies for educators to thrive financially. The discussion dives into the unique financial challenges and overlooked advantages teachers face, such as pensions, student loan forgiveness, and the realities of teacher pay. The episode also tackles systemic and mindset hurdles, practical tips for maximizing income, planning for retirement, and the role of personal finance education in schools—all with an optimistic, practical, and jargon-free approach.

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Key Discussion Points and Insights

1. The Teacher Poverty Myth ([01:27]–[03:21])

• Joel frames the episode: While no one teaches expecting to get rich, it’s a misconception—and a harmful one—that teachers are fated to struggle financially into retirement.
• Shaun Morgan insists that, with understanding and planning, teachers can retire well:

  "The assumption that teachers have to retire poor is flat out wrong. Teachers... have real underused advantages." ([02:07])

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2. Personal Financial Journeys and Sacrifices ([03:23]–[09:25])

• Shaun’s "Splurge": He intentionally budgets for travel by cutting costs elsewhere (notably reducing meat in his diet).
• Early Career Struggles:
  Shaun recounts taking a low-paying internship, buying a house he could technically afford (but not comfortably), and how lack of financial education led to early struggles.

  "If I had learned about this two months ago, I would have made a better financial decision buying this home." ([08:01])

• Key lesson: For teachers (or anyone on a tight budget), the "Big Three" expenses (housing, transport, food) are crucial and demand intentional planning from the start.

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3. Why Are So Many Teachers Leaving? ([09:25]–[12:02])

• Factors for Attrition:
  • Erosion of perceived support from administrators, parents, and students.
  • New challenges such as screen time, student anxiety, and insufficient pay raises.
  • Shaun's anecdote of a teacher friend fired over a student accusation demonstrates diminishing institutional support.

"What teachers crave most is to feel like they're supported... and that feeling has eroded." ([09:52])

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4. Student Loan Forgiveness – An Overlooked Advantage ([12:02]–[14:33])

• PSLF (Public Service Loan Forgiveness):
  • Teachers qualify for 10-year tax-free loan forgiveness under income-driven repayment plans—often with extremely low or zero payments early in their careers.
  • This makes teaching attractive even for those with high student debt.
  • Shaun advises teachers with large loan balances to seriously consider leveraging PSLF:

  "It is the hands down best financial forgiveness program for student loans as far as I’m aware." ([14:14])

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5. Why Teachers Need Specialized Financial Advice ([14:33]–[16:36])

• Unique Teacher Considerations:
  • Pensions dramatically alter retirement planning.
  • Job "hustle" and negotiation culture typical in other professions doesn’t apply—teachers’ pay is usually locked into schedules and union contracts.
  • The path to financial security in teaching is less about increasing income and more about maximizing what you have and long-range strategy.

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6. The “Teacher Vow of Poverty” Mindset ([16:36]–[18:39])

• Cultural and Internalized Defeatism:
  Many teachers internalize the notion that their work should be a financial sacrifice.
• Shaun on the damaging myth:

  "You are already rich. Your wallet just needs to catch up because we have this... beautiful job." ([58:16])

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7. Pay Cycles and Budgeting ([18:39]–[20:31])

• Teachers are typically paid over 10 or 12 months; managing a 10-month pay cycle requires foresight, especially for the summer.
• Some districts allow choosing between pay spread or lumped; most are shifting to 12-month pay to ease budgeting stress.

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8. Out-of-Pocket Expenses – The Hidden Cost of Teaching ([20:31]–[25:07])

• Teachers often spend hundreds to thousands out of pocket to decorate classrooms or buy supplies.
• Shaun’s philosophy: Don’t spend your own money—seek out school/department budgets, PTA, grants, or get creative instead.

"If you are spending money on your classroom, stop it, don’t do it." ([21:24])

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9. Realistic Ways for Teachers to Increase Income ([28:01]–[38:57])

• Annual Step Increases:
  Automatically scheduled, predictable pay raises—use these proactively for savings/investments.
• Further Education:
  Pursuing a master’s can boost pay—but only if obtained affordably (consider online or discounted programs, tuition reimbursement, or paying outright).
• Certifications, High-Need Areas, “Geoarbitrage”:
  National Board certifications, specializations (math, SPED), or moving to higher-paying districts with a lower cost of living, can all help.
• Side Hustles:
  Non-teaching summer jobs, seasonal gigs, and small businesses (e.g., running a pool, fireworks sales, Teachers Pay Teachers resources) can help.

  "Don’t discount side hustles just because you feel so exhausted from teaching—something new will probably invigorate you." ([35:23])

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10. Teacher Retirement – Pensions and Beyond ([38:57]–[48:18])

• Pensions:
  Structured, reliable, and remove the temptation to cash out early—typically, after 30 years, a teacher gets 60–65% of their highest average salary as lifelong income ([41:16]).
  • Downside: Less control, lower investment growth compared to market, complexity if moving states/districts.
• 403(b)s and 457(b)s:
  • 403(b): Watch for high, hidden fees from non-fiduciary vendors; do due diligence (use 403bwise.org for guidance). Fees can eat up a third or more of your returns!
  • 457(b): Often have only one vendor, generally lower fees, and offer unique early withdrawal benefits—especially helpful if leaving before 59½.
  • Shaun’s order of priority for extra retirement savings: HSA (if available), then IRA (especially Roth), then 457/403(b).

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11. Advice for Young/Short-Tenure Teachers ([51:47]–[53:51])

• Max out individual control: Contribute as much as possible to IRAs/HSAs, so you retain your money if you leave teaching before vesting in a pension.
• Unvested pension contributions are usually refundable and can often be rolled into an IRA.

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12. Social Security Eligibility ([53:51]–[55:30])

• If you pay into Social Security as a teacher, you now qualify for benefits—no reduction due to a pension, thanks to recent legislation (Social Security Fairness Act).
• Teachers in states with no Social Security coverage for educators can still earn Social Security credits through side hustles or other work.

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13. Personal Finance Education in High Schools ([55:30]–[57:57])

• More states legally require personal finance for high schoolers (31 and counting).
• The movement will benefit both students and teachers, boosting financial literacy.
  • Caution: Implementation must foster real engagement, not "check the box" boredom.

  "Personal finance... it's the most relatable, the most flexible... real world application." ([56:39])

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14. Should You Become a Teacher for Financial Independence? ([57:57]–[60:28])

• Teaching is uniquely meaningful but undeniably challenging; it’s not for everyone, but achievable financial independence is possible—just not as easy as in more lucrative fields.
• Essential mindset:

  "If all you want to do is do something you love, set money aside, let it grow, and then get that flexibility and independence—you get to kind of have a mini retirement every summer." ([58:16])

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On Mindset:
  "If any teacher was told we're not going to pay you anymore, but do it for the kids, they'd say no, see ya, I'm leaving." — Shaun ([17:42])

• On Loan Forgiveness:
  "The more student loans you have, the more you should consider being a teacher. PSLF is such a strong incentive." — Joel ([14:07])

• On Side Hustles:
  "Your brain will enjoy something new, even if you felt tired before." — Shaun ([36:39])

• On Retirement Security:
  "Most people don’t make the right choices when they’re in control of the money. The benefit of the pension... is that you have no say in the matter." — Shaun ([40:02])

• On 403(b) Pitfalls:
  "Only the bad vendors with high fees have the money to send people into your school to try and sign you up—not the good ones." — Shaun ([43:36])

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Timestamps for Major Segments

• [01:27] – Joel introduces the episode’s core theme.
• [03:23] – "Craft beer equivalent" spending: Shaun’s take on intentional spending.
• [05:41] – Shaun’s early career stories and debt challenges.
• [09:52] – Major reasons for teacher attrition in the profession.
• [12:30] – Student loan forgiveness explained.
• [14:52] – Why teachers need targeted personal finance advice.
• [16:36] – The “teacher vow of poverty” mindset.
• [18:39] – Navigating pay cycles and budgeting.
• [21:24] – Classroom spending: Stop paying out-of-pocket!
• [28:58] – How teachers can proactively increase their income.
• [38:57] – The good and bad of pensions and retirement planning.
• [43:32] – Hidden, harmful fees in 403(b) plans.
• [46:17] – 457(b) vs. 403(b) vs. IRA: order of operations for savings.
• [51:47] – Retirement planning for young/short-tenure teachers.
• [53:51] – Social Security credits and teachers.
• [55:30] – The spread of financial literacy requirements in schools.
• [57:57] – Is teaching a viable path to FIRE (financial independence, retire early)?
• [60:55] – Where to find more of Shaun's work (Teacher Money Show).

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Additional Resources Mentioned

• 403bwise.org (vet your 403b plan for fees and options)
• Teacher Money Show podcast (Shaun’s show)
• PSLF info at studentaid.gov

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Summary Takeaways

Teaching can be a fulfilling AND financially secure career, but it requires intention, a proactive approach to benefits, awareness of unique pitfalls (especially with retirement vehicles), and a refusal to internalize the cultural “vow of poverty” mindset. Teachers must plan around the realities of their pay structure, aggressively educate themselves on investment and retirement options, and reject societal—and sometimes self-imposed—limitations.

As Shaun says:

"You are already rich. Your wallet just needs to catch up." ([58:16])

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Transcript

[Joel]

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[Joel]

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[Sean Morgan]

Happy to be here.

[Joel]

All right, first question I ask everybody who comes on the show, Sean, is what do you like to splurge on? I call it the craft beer equivalent. Because some people would say, oh, you spend way too much money on craft beer. And it's like, no, no, I'm doing it intentionally while I'm saving and investing for my future in a smart, savvy way. What would that splurge be for you?

[Sean Morgan]

Oh, man, I have way too many things that I really like to splurge on. That's part of the problem. But, you know, I think that just getting like a nice, you know, travel experience is really what I like to spend my money on. I just gotta do a nice, you know, getaway trip for my 10th anniversary with my wife. And it, first of all, it was great to be able to say, yes, I'm spending a ton of money right now, but it's in the budget. So just like, you know, not skimping on that and really enjoying that experience, I think is what I like to spend money on the most.

[Joel]

So. Okay, gotcha, gotcha. What was this last trip? And is this like an intentional splurge where you're saying no to other things and you're like, we're just funneling a lot of money in this direction because this matters a lot to us.

[Sean Morgan]

Yeah. So what we've recently done is we cut our food bill in half by cutting meat out of our diet. Not, like entirely, but almost entirely.

[Joel]

And just by, especially given prices right now, that's a smart move.

[Sean Morgan]

So by just like cutting that down, like, we don't really need to just like shove meat into our face constantly. And we cut that down. It reduced our spending on food drastically. And then we were able to say, hey, now we have money. We don't have to stress about going on this anniversary trip that I promised my wife years ago we were going to go on. So that was great. And Then we didn't go do anything crazy, but we just got to ditch the kids for a weekend and go to San Antonio and just enjoy the riverwalk. And there's some caves in San Antonio. If anyone likes going down underground like we do. That's a really nice area to do that.

[Joel]

So I love that travel beats steak for you. That's great. That's great. And that's just what it takes. I mean, like, truly what it takes to make things work so often is like, you can't have it all. You have to pick something. And I love that you've made an intentional choice. And obviously, Sean, you're quite interested in personal finance and building wealth. I'm sure you knew that teaching wasn't going to be this quick path to riches. What made you pursue that path anyway? As someone who's interested in personal finance?

[Sean Morgan]

Yeah. So my love of personal finance was always there, but it's kind of like a latent thing. Like, just, like, I was more frugally minded, but when I was young, I just, I loved to learn. Like, I was a little weird, but, like, someone would come to, like, work on, like, our piano. They tuned the piano, or someone was, like, putting in a new Internet line at our house. And I just sit there and watch them work and ask them questions. They probably hated it, but I was just constantly asking questions. So I love learning. And I realized at a young age I loved learning so much, I wanted to help others to love learning, too. So that's what drew me into education. And as soon as I got into education, I just stumbled into personal finance and found out I had a passion and a love for personal finance, for the independence that comes from it. And I told myself, well, I love teaching. I love personal finance. I'm going to find a way to make this work. Even though there are so many other paths I could take that would pay considerably better. I wanted to almost prove to myself that it's possible as a teacher to find your way. And also because I don't want to give up something that I. And joy and love.

[Joel]

Yeah. You started off your career, you're teaching, but, like, you found yourself, you weren't making much money. You were kind of sliding into debt. And you. Is that like a place where most teachers find themselves early on that the salary is meager and that they're trying to make ends meet, and it's incredibly hard. Like, how did you get past those early years?

[Sean Morgan]

Yeah. So my first year teaching was called teaching intern, which is not something most people do. But instead of student teaching. I was a full time teacher for a whole year and got paid half first year salary, teacher salary, which is laughably below minimum wage for how much work I was putting in. But that's kind of where I got started. I was fortunate that I was able to graduate debt free from school and have some money saved up during that time. So I was able to buy a home and all that stuff and it was great. And I was like, yes, I've made it and I'm going to double my salary next year. Well, I moved and my salary instead of doubling only went up by like 400 bucks a month. So I was just making much less than I had anticipated compared to what I was like. I bought a home that I could qualify for, so I just was unprepared for what I was doing. And this home that I qualified for was taking half of my take home pay away every single month. So that alone just made it not possible. I learned about personal finance like two weeks into owning this home and I was like, if I had learned about this two months ago, I would have made a better financial decision buying this home. So I think it's very likely because of the lack of financial education for starting out teachers that we're going to make mistakes and we're going to end up going into debt or really struggling those first few years. And I'm not saying that I could have lived high on the hog those first few years because it was tight and we had a young child, so my wife wasn't working at the time, which made it really, really difficult. But if I just made a better, you know, decision in those areas of those big three, you know, your, your housing, your transportation, your food, you know, those are the things that you can really make smart decisions on at the beginning that can make it so you're not going to have that struggle. But because I didn't know about those decisions, I did struggle, if that makes sense. So I feel like it's just you have to have a very intentional plan when you have such a limited budget, otherwise you're going to struggle for sure.

[Joel]

I feel like we're seeing. I've seen more headlines about teachers leaving the profession. Right. And is that, is that because teaching is harder than ever these days in 2026? Is that because the salary is smaller than it should be for a lot of teachers? Like what do you attribute kind of teachers just kind of choosing to do something else and leave the profession altogether? What do you chalk that up to?

[Sean Morgan]

Yeah, I think all those are great Points. So what teachers crave most is to feel like they're supported by their administration, by their parents, by students. Right. Like that what they're doing matters to people. And that feeling has eroded. And there's a few different things that go to that one. There's just been a general swing towards, like, you know, anything a child says in, like, an accusation sense can get pinned on a teacher and the teacher. Like, I've just heard some really weird situations where the teacher is the one that gets thrown under the bus when something goes wrong. Like, I had a friend who made a joke with a student that he was really comfortable with, and that joke got twisted into something that might have been racist. And he says, what? And then the next thing you knew, he was. He lost his job. He's like that. Like, I have no idea what just happened. He was able to get another job because they're desperate for teachers all over the place. But it was just like, it's just such a weird situation of no support from administration. Like, there was an accusation and we just decided to fire you instead of, like, doing our due diligence and finding out what really happened.

[Joel]

It does seem like back when we were kids or when I was a kid, like, the. The assumption was the teacher was in the right and the kid was in the wrong. And it feels like the shoes on the other foot right now.

[Sean Morgan]

Yeah. So I think that's one of the big ones. But then the other thing is that we were just noticing, and I personally, my personal belief, there's no, like, scientific data that I've, like, really gone into to back it up. But just like the prevalence of screens and screen time and the anxiety that's been demonstrated to come from that, things like that are causing a lot of issues with students as they're going through these very formative years that are making the lives of the teachers more difficult. So when you don't have administration backing you up, you have students who are going through just, like, increased anxiety and other problems that are prevalent everywhere. And then on top of that, our wages aren't going up at the same pace as inflation. It's just coming down to, I'm not paid enough for this crap. Right. That's really what it is.

[Joel]

What about student loans? Like, when a teacher graduates or somebody who wants to be a teacher, they graduate and they're like, wait a second, I want to choose this profession, but the starting salary doesn't look that great. And on top of that, I've got, like, this massive backlog of student loans. That I gotta start paying off. Do you have any advice for teachers on that front as they're like starting out a job that might be, might not pay a ton and at the same time they've got a big albatross around their neck that is their student loan debt.

[Sean Morgan]

Yeah, you know, actually I would say that unless you're going to get like a significantly higher paying job if you have student loans, teaching is probably a much better choice for you than saying, oh, I can make you know, $20,000 more per year, maybe even 30, because we have this thing called public servant loan forgiveness that pretty much every teacher qualifies for. And what that is is instead of the regular like 20 year payoff that a lot of loan forgiveness programs have, you are in a 10 year track and on that tenure track you must be in an income driven repayment plan. And especially in those first 10 years of teaching, your income driven repayment plan is probably going to be zero or very close to zero. And then after 10 years it's forgiven. And that forgiveness is tax free while other forgiveness programs, you get taxed on the forgiven balance. So the illusion that if I get a higher paying job, it'll be better for me is something that draws people away from teaching with the student loans. But if you can push through 10 years, it's actually you're going to end up paying less out of pocket for that student loan forgiveness. Usually now if you have like, you know, $15,000 of student loans, you'll probably be better off just paying those off. But like the average balance is like 30, $40,000 for a student loan balance when you, when you come out and that range is when it starts to be like, yeah, that, that 10 year track is probably better for you, especially when you have that lower payment, the, the non taxable forgiveness and the just that 10 year track instead of the longer track for, for forgiveness.

[Joel]

Almost like the more student loans you have, the more you should consider being a teacher. Because PSLF is such like a strong incentive, right?

[Sean Morgan]

Yeah, it is the hands down best financial forgiveness program for, for student loans as far as I'm aware. I haven't found anything that's better. So I mean it doesn't include graduate debt, so just keep that in mind. That's we're just talking about like bachelor's debts, but you know, most teachers get in with just that bachelor debt anyway.

[Joel]

So I'm curious, you, you have a show podcast called the Teacher Money Show. Why is money advice for teachers a necessity in the first place? Like where does General personal finance advice fall, fall short when we're talking about teachers. Why do they need something targeted towards them directly?

[Sean Morgan]

And you know, that's a great question. And first, let me say most general financial advice does apply very, very well to teachers because, you know, general financial advice is just good in general. Right. But there are a few different moments that it just doesn't work. The first is the pension. Most everyone doesn't have a pension anymore and teachers have pensions. And a pension just changes your retirement plans. Offhand, there's just like so many differences between I'm going to have a steady paycheck, how much I need, because I've got this, this coming in every single month is different. I've got that plus Social Security, so that's different. How do I calculate that based on my pension, all the different things I need to do to get my pension higher. Like, you just. No one talks about those things because those things are so specific to teachers and public servants generally.

[Joel]

We're going to talk about those things today.

[Sean Morgan]

Yes, and so that's the first one. The second one is this hustle mentality that a lot of general podcasts have, like, oh, you just, you know, put in more work, you ask for a raise, you job hop to get a higher bonus on your salary, things like that. That just doesn't work. As a teacher. Like, I've heard of teachers negotiating a higher pay rate, but because we're so like locked into unionized rates and yearly service step ups and education based step ups, it just doesn't make sense to like do that. And we don't get overtime. You can't be like, oh, just work harder and get more overtime and save and things like that. So those things fall flat and teachers are listening to those and they're like, oh, what about me? That doesn't really work. And then the final thing is a lot of general podcast advice is about like, you know, ramping up that income. And it's just the trajectory is not there for teachers. So the focus needs to be much more on controlling what you have.

[Joel]

And I do want to talk about how teachers can increase their pay because there are ways, right? And there's, there are suggestions that you have. So we'll get to that in a second. I guess too, there's something else that you've mentioned that teachers have to overcome. You've called it the teacher vow of poverty. And there's just almost like this inherent assumption that teachers have that because it is this job that's public service oriented, it's for the community, it's for the kids that they assume that they shouldn't have money, that they shouldn't build wealth. Almost. There's almost like this self defeatism towards finances that comes along. Not always, but for a decent chunk of teachers. What do you think that's about?

[Sean Morgan]

Yeah, so that's, you know, the other piece. There's just so many different things. I could ramble probably all day about the different things that teachers have to overcome that are different. But yeah, this is this mindset piece. I spend a lot of time talking about the mindset for educators because people in education are told like the first thing you say, I'm gonna be a teacher, they say, well, bless your heart, you're just not gonna be paid enough. Right. It's just a really sad.

[Joel]

At least in the south, that's what they say, right?

[Sean Morgan]

In the South. I'm in the south right now. So just people assume that teachers are never gonna make it. You're doing it for, they say for the outcome, not the income. Which is just baloney. Cause if any teacher was told we're not gonna pay you anymore, but do it for the kids, they'd say no, see ya, I'm leaving. Right.

[Joel]

That's just abuse right there.

[Sean Morgan]

That is. So we are in it for our income. We have to be in it for our income so we can survive, so we can thrive. Because thriving teachers make thriving students. So it's just a really a hard mindset shift out of this. You're being told by administration, by your friends, by your family, by the people that you were learning from to become a teacher. You are not going to be making very much money in your life. You're going to be poor. But you know, that's, that's not why you're here.

[Joel]

But hey, you get summers off, right?

[Sean Morgan]

Yeah, but hey, you get summers off. That's the consolation prize. No, it's just, it's really sad. Just like prevalent societal level view of teachers that we have to overcome.

[Joel]

Talk to me about teacher pay, not how much, but the cycle of teacher pay. Right. Isn't it? Teachers can usually get paid in over a 10 month period or they can stretch those payments out to a 12 month period. Do teachers usually get to pick how they want to get paid? And how does budgeting look different for teachers based on the fact that they're not that they do have summers off?

[Sean Morgan]

Some districts allow you to choose one or the other. For example, where I work, they say you can either get paid 10 months or we can take some money from your paycheck and put it over 12. Some say well you're getting 10 months, so figure it out. Others say you're getting 12 months, that's it. So it depends on where you're working. But you are. Like when teachers say I'm not paid enough compared to other professionals of like education, I think the first thing we need to figure out is well, if we added in those two more months that you're not getting paid for, how big is the gap? Because we are not getting paid for those two months. Even if we're getting a paycheck over those two months. It's just stretching the 10 month work of work over that time period. So I think a lot of the gap, not all of it, but a lot of the gap is because of those two months that we are just straight up not getting paid for, even though we're stretching it. And if you, to go back to your question about budgeting, if you're being paid over those 10 months, it can be really, really stressful if you don't budget for that because you get to the summer and now you have to work people being a waiter or finding some other summer job that they have to do to try and make the bills to meet those bills over the summer. And if they don't budget for that, and since no one's teaching teachers how to budget for that like when they're starting, they're just saying you get paid over 10 months, good luck. It's a real big issue. But I think most districts are moving more towards the 12 month just cause they don't want to have teachers feel that stress over the summer.

[Joel]

Yeah, I feel like there's these other little things that are maybe like teachers decorating their classrooms. Man, I love walking in and seeing my kids class and like especially like kindergarten. Right. It's adorable like the way the classroom's decorated and stuff like that. But I know oftentimes or I hear stories about teachers putting their own money into that because they want the classroom to look awesome for the kids and they don't have, I guess, enough of a budget to make it look the way they want and is I think I read somewhere the average teacher spends like close to $1,000 right. On classroom spending that comes out of their pocket. So not only is it just inferior pay, but then it's also these other places where they're. If not expected, at least they want to. Right. For the, for the experience of the kids, spend a little extra money. How nefarious is that? And how often do you see teachers finding themselves spending money in ways that

[Sean Morgan]

they didn't expect all the time. It's terrible. My philosophy is, if you are spending money on your classroom, stop it, don't do it. Because it's never going to change as long as we continue to spend money on our classroom. So that's the first thing. The second thing is, why are you doing it? Most teachers are doing it because the way to not spend money in your classroom is extra work. They're like, well, I want this, so I'm just gonna spend money on it. And it's easy. You know, you see it on Amazon, you see it on Etsy, and you just pull out the credit card. But I have never spent a cent that was mine on my classroom. Because I have always asked, how can I get this without paying for it? Most schools have a small budget for teachers to spend on their classroom. A couple hundred bucks is not a lot. But the amount of times that doesn't get used is just insane because you have to go fill out some paperwork and say, I used it for this. And then you get the money for it, or you get reimbursed for something like that. That's one thing. Another thing is most departments have funds. Like your social studies department has money they can spend on social studies stuff, and people just don't ask the department head, hey, can I use some of this funds for this? Right? That's that simple. Or I had a principal who called us in and said, we have a discretionary principal fund that if we don't use it by the end of the year, we're gonna lose it. How are we gonna spend this? Your principal probably has some money that they need to spend on things that if you ask, you can get it there. There's so many steps you can take in the school to get things paid for. Now, are they going to pay for your cute border around your bulletin board? Maybe not, but for a lot of those things, like, they bought me, like, six Monopoly boards to teach an economics unit with. That's not like a need, but it's something that I could justify. And then another thing I did is I applied for a grant. There are grants out there for teachers, for classrooms. A lot of local credit unions have programs to sponsor teachers. And then beyond that, there are organizations that have websites that you can set up like, hey, I need this for my classroom, and people can donate to that. Or you can go to your parents and say, hey, parents, we need this for the classroom. There are so many ways, and if not, get creative Instead of, like, buying the poster, I would like, handwrite it on these giant sticky notes they had in our, in our lounge. And I'm like, look, it's not pretty, but it gets the information across. And I refuse to spend my own money of my underpaid salary on this classroom. And just having that mindset of how can I get it without paying for it is going to just allow us to keep more of our paycheck. And then, as people see, hey, these classrooms don't, like, look like, you know, Disneyland. What's wrong is like, oh, we just don't have the budget for it. And that's gonna motivate people to want to step in and help.

[Joel]

What about pta ever? I feel like our PTA is like, super active and oftentimes they're kind of going for the big bang kind of stuff where it's like, oh, the STEM teacher, we're going to make sure they get thousands of dollars worth of stuff this year and they kind of highly target that stuff. But there's also, I think teachers can apply, right, for money from the PTA as well. If they've got an idea or a big spend they want to make, that's another good place to turn.

[Sean Morgan]

Absolutely. And my last little piece of advice is stop giving kids candy out of your own pocket. I know you say bribery works. It only works in the short term, people.

[Joel]

Also, yes, stop giving my kids candy at school, please. I'm with you, Shania.

[Sean Morgan]

So I have some pretty strong opinions about this, but it's just, it's. The only way to really have a change is if we stop spending our own money.

[Joel]

All right, I got more I want to get to with you, Sean, and specifically I want to talk about how teachers can get paid more. There are ways to go about doing that. And I want to talk about teacher retirement plans, the pitfalls and the potential. We'll get to those. That and more with Sean Morgan right after this. For small businesses, every hire matters. But the time and resources required to hire right are Limited. Luckily, LinkedIn Hiring Pro is built for that reality. It's your hiring partner, designed to help you hire with confidence by surfacing only the right candidates without turning hiring into another full time job.

[Kate]

Yeah, posting a job, that's not always the hard part. It's the finding, connecting with and screening the right candidates. Hiring Pro streamlines the entire process, from drafting your job to shortlisting candidates and and conducting AI powered interviews for initial screenings, all through a conversational interface that lets you describe what you need in plain language. Nearly 60% of hires find a candidate to interview within a week. With Hiring Pro, you spend less time searching and more time connecting with the right talent.

[Joel]

Hire right the first time, post your first job and get $100 off towards your job. [e-mail] howtomoney that's LinkedIn.com howtomoney Terms and conditions apply.

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[Joel]

all right, we're back. Still talking with Sean Morgan talking about teachers and how man, it sure seems like on its face teachers have this uphill uphill battle, not walking to school both ways. Uphill in the snow maybe a little bit. Maybe that's what it feels like I guess for a teacher to dominate retirement. But it's very much possible and Sean has helps people inspire teachers to do that very thing. And Sean, I'm curious. You talked about how the fact that like teachers have less ability to negotiate and that is like a classic personal finance tip is like go in there and ask your boss for raise and come prepared in this way so that you're able to at least, like, work towards getting a bigger paycheck. And maybe a 10% raise in the course of a year is not off the table. But for a teacher, much of the time it is. Like, pay increases are very prescribed. Like, you can't just be like, hey, I want that 10% raise. What do I have to do to get it? How do you think teachers should think about negotiating or advocating for a raise when that sort of individual negotiation is often off the table?

[Sean Morgan]

Yeah. So first of all, I think the first thing to ask yourself is, what is in my control? What's in my control is I'm getting this pay raise every single year. I can see it. I know what pay I'm going to have five years from now. It's there, it's published for everyone to see, which is great. You don't have that in a lot of places. Like, if you don't negotiate for a pay raise in many companies, you just don't get one. But by law, teachers are getting a pay raise every single year. And as long as you're aware of that and you're proactive with it, you can start putting, you know, say, half of that pay raise every single year toward your financial goals. And over the course of, you know, 10, 20 years, the amount of money that starts going towards your financial goals because you were intentional about taking a part of that pay raise and, and putting it towards those goals that, you know is coming, like, it's going to come every single year is a huge step. Now the other thing that you can say is, okay, they're going to pay me for more time. I can't make time go faster. They're going to pay me for more education. I have control of that. And teachers tend to jump in and get education at the school that they want to go to, and they get, like a master's degree at a beautiful place, and that's so nice. And then it puts you in more debt. And was that $4,000 a year raise worth it? Probably not, because.

[Joel]

Because the cost of the education was too much for the raise there they were getting. Is that okay?

[Sean Morgan]

Yeah, it's just like, if you're going to get, you know, $20,000 in debt for $4,000 a year raise, over time it'll make sense, but initially that's just not really worth that return on investment.

[Joel]

How do you. How do you make it pay off more quickly then?

[Sean Morgan]

Well, you find a cheaper option. There are so many schools that will give you a master's degree for way, way less than the, you know, the, the state school or the private university, there's a lot of online options where you can get a master's degree for, for a much smaller amount. You can get scholarships out there. There are not as many, but there are out there for, for graduate studies. There are so many other options. And then if you are able to like do like a side hustle and work to earn the money to be able to pay for it out of pocket so that way you're not paying interest on the back end, that, that makes the return on investment much, much higher. So there's just different ways that you can go about getting a master's degree debt free, which is going to make that return greater. And you do want that master's degree, you want that higher pay scale because the difference is going to make for retirement down the line, which is based on your highest average salary at the end of your career is absolutely worth it. But you don't want to get into a bunch of debt to do that. That's the second.

[Joel]

So it's going to like, it's going to help with pay now right after you get your master's degree, but then it's also going to help with your bigger paychecks in retirement as well.

[Sean Morgan]

Yeah.

[Joel]

What about certifications? Like are there different certifications that are worth pursuing that maybe aren't terribly expensive or that you can even, can you get those paid for by the school district and will those often lead to, I don't know, better pay too?

[Sean Morgan]

Yeah, so that's a good question. So first of all, your school might have a tuition reimbursement program for that master's degree that you're going to go for. So ask A lot of these things are just asking. But you're talking about certifications. There is like a national board certification. Some states recognize it, some don't and they have to give you a pay raise for that. There's also high needs areas like special education, math and science often have a stipend with it. It's not high, but if you're interested in math and science like it's a no brainer to do that. And then you know, there are other, there's a lot of different things people can do. I did say don't go job hopping. But there's also a difference in pay from district to district. If you can find that sweet spot of this district pays well, but it's not terribly expensive to live there or I can commute really easily. That is something else you can do. There's some Geo arbitrage that can happen as a teacher. So there's a lot less personal negotiation, but a lot more like long term planning that goes into getting the best salary as a teacher.

[Joel]

If you're thinking about moving districts, can't that penalize you from a retirement standpoint like not having as many years served in a particular district? Does the higher paid bump maybe make less sense at times if you've been in a particular district for a longer period of time?

[Sean Morgan]

Yeah, so there's a few different pieces of that one. If you're in the same state, it's not going to affect your retirement because it's all state based. Also if you move, you're vested in one state, you move to another state. Sometimes you can roll over into that. It's not always possible, but there are ways to do that. And then the other piece to consider is if you've been in one district for a long time, moving can generally be problematic because sometimes they don't accept past a certain number of years of experience of putting you on the pay scale. But if you're, you know, early on in your career, especially finding that district that you want to stay at because it's got, you know, the right pay to cost ratio is just a powerful early on strategy. So I moved from Colorado to Texas because Colorado is just not paying teachers well at all and it was really expensive. Texas had a higher pay, lower cost of living. So I, I chose that to be able to support my family on a teacher's salary.

[Joel]

It's a double whammy. You have a lower cost of living and higher pay. So yeah, that, that makes sense. And yeah, I can't imagine teaching in a really high cost of living area. It just makes you think of like San Francisco or New York City. Right? There are places that make it really, it's really expensive to live. If you, if you are a teacher, if you work in a service industry and the pay is not bumped up enough to make up for the ridiculously high cost of living. How, how do you think? I know you're keen, I think on side hustles, but what, what do you think, what would you say to a teacher who says, man, the summer's off. That's one of the biggest perks. Like I realize I'm not going to get paid as much, but I don't necessarily want to have to like bust it in June and July when those are supposed to especially like a lot of teachers have kids and so it makes sense for their schedule because their kids are out of School, they're not working. But what would you say to teachers? How would you maybe talk about side hustles and the importance or worth how worthwhile they are?

[Sean Morgan]

Well, if you don't want to side hustle, you just gotta deal with your pay. There's just no other way, really, around that. The pay you have is what it's gonna be unless you're willing to side hustle. I think that the summers are an ideal time for teachers to hustle because it doesn't have to be the traditional teacher side hustle. It doesn't have to be waiting tables. It doesn't have to be tutoring, which, by the way, like, you know, if you really love tutoring, great. But if you're tutoring and you hate it, that's probably because you're burnt out from teaching for the whole year and now you're tutoring more. It's like. It's just. You don't want to do that. You don't want your brain to continue to be fatigued by the same thing. The rest you're getting over the summer is just the rest from doing the same intense work all year. So if you flip it and you do something else, you're still resting because your brain just likes novelty more than it likes to vegetate. And we don't really see that. People don't switch to some other kind of work. They switch to, you know, TV now. But if you just switch to a different kind of work, your brain will like it. Your brain will enjoy something new, even if you felt tired before. So that's my first piece of advice, is don't discount side hustles just because you feel so exhausted from teaching, because something new will probably invigorate you and not just make you more tired. And then it's great.

[Joel]

Are there any, like, super creative ones you've done or you've seen other teachers do?

[Sean Morgan]

Yeah, and what I love about it is you get to really just personalize this to what you want to do. So I sell fireworks every year, which I know it's not possible in a lot of places, but I just really like the get to talk to people. And then the sales aspect of it is kind of fun. And it's just like a nice little, you know, short window around 4th of July I get to do. I know of another teacher who operates the local swimming pool that's open from Memorial Day to Labor Day. Great teacher side hustle, because that's when we're off. Generally, there's also basically anything that's Kind of seasonal can really be a powerful thing that you can do. Like there's like farm things that are open during the summer. So if you like working with animals, you can do stuff with like a farm, that kind of thing. And then I just generally say like, if it's something that's online that you can ramp up over the summer, like a side business, something that you own, not a job, but a business that you own that you can like, okay, I'm going to take the summer to ramp this up and then scale it back in the school year when I'm busy. That's what I really like about our flexibility. So finding those flexible things, like even if you know I'm going to be working on lesson plans anyway, why not get those ready for teachers pay teachers while you're at it?

[Joel]

I was going to ask you about that.

[Sean Morgan]

You can sell that on there, right?

[Joel]

Is that like a viable way to make money?

[Sean Morgan]

Yes, it is. I know a teacher, I know a teacher who quit because their teacher paid teacher store is paying them enough to survive. So there's a viable way to make money. I don't really advocate teachers pay teachers because I don't like the fact that teachers are paying to bring stuff into their classroom. That's once again that same problem. But you can often get your school to pay for a teachers pay teachers thing if you can prove that it is worthwhile. Right. So there's just like a lot of different things depending on what you're doing. If you're already putting the time and effort into it anyway, why not take that extra effort to make it nice and available out there so that way you can get some income back from it. There's just so many different. I struggle to find all of them because there's so many different things that teachers can do over the summer. It just depends on your interest, your passion, what you want to pursue.

[Joel]

Let's talk about teacher retirement. And there's some good, some bad, and some ugly in that space. Most teachers like you mentioned still have access to a pension, which is seen as a major perk. And it really can be. But do you think pensions are all they're cracked up to be? And what role should a pension play in retirement planning for teachers?

[Sean Morgan]

I would much rather have a like a defined contribution plan instead of a defined benefit plan, which is what a pension is. Myself, which is actually my school doesn't have a pension. And I like that because I'm in control of the investment. However, to be in control of the investment means that you have control of the money. And most people don't make the right choices when they're in control of the money. The benefit of the pension, even though the return on investment is generally lower than a, you know, like if you're going to put it into an index for the long term, is that you have no say in the matter. You are going to invest for retirement whether you like it or not.

[Joel]

There's a lot of certainty there.

[Sean Morgan]

Yeah, there's a lot of certainty. And the fact that teachers don't really have the choice to say, look, I'm struggling right now, I need this money now, I'm going to spend it now, saves so many teachers because when we get to retirement, that benefit is there. And I think that that safety net for teachers has been the only thing that's keeping us afloat right now because we don't have the choice to take that money. So if we could force teachers to just invest it and not just take it to pay for their needs right now, then I think that the long term growth of the defined contribution plan is better just because of that dependable certainty of the pension and just because of where we're at right now with financial literacy for teachers and for Americans in general. It's not just teachers having that dependable safety net is so worthwhile.

[Joel]

Let's talk about the 403 plans too. So pension is one of those things where, yeah, it's going to provide a base level. What percentage of pay? Typically if a teacher serves 30 years, 30 years is usually the number Right. To get the max pension amount. Is that like 50% of your, you know, a certain amount of your highest year salary? Like how does that usually work on the pension?

[Sean Morgan]

Yeah, so it changes from state to state, but it's usually in that 60 to 65% range of the last three to five years. Average highest salary.

[Joel]

Okay.

[Sean Morgan]

So if your average higher salary was $100,000, you know, take home 60, $65,000,

[Joel]

which like, to be honest, I mean, is pretty spectacular, especially if you started teaching 25, you retire at 55 and you're talking about potentially many, many decades of having that kind of payout. But 403 plans. In addition, can you talk about maybe some of the differences between 403s and 401ks and how teachers should think about participating in a 403b because they might be like, why would I like contribute more to my future retirement? I got the pension.

[Sean Morgan]

Yeah. So a couple of things. One, people say, well, the pension is not going to be Enough, because you know, I'm making say $100,000. I can't live on 65. If you track your spending and you compare your gross salary to your net, you're actually probably closer to that 65% range as it is. Just because of all the stuff that's taken out that won't be taken out of your pension. It might be a little bit of a pay cut, but not really as much as you think it's going to be. Especially if you're contributing to a defined contribution plan like a 403. Now onto the 403B. The difference is simply that it's not protected by ERISA laws. What that means is the person who is trying to sell you a 403 has no obligation to be acting as a full time fiduciary in your best interests at all time. What this leads to is multiple vendors. So you have to choose who is going to offer your 403. Some of them are good, most of them are bad. High fees, and we're talking 2 to 3%. Now if you're like, why is that such a big deal on just, you know, 30 years, $100 a month investment with no fees, that's going to be like $150,000 at a 10% return on investment. Right. Those 3% fees, $100,000. So we're talking about like a third of your pay or a third of your, your growth potential gone in fees.

[Joel]

Just getting eaten away by high fees that teachers are particularly susceptible to.

[Sean Morgan]

Yeah. So because of just the lack of protections like a regular 401k, they are required to have low fee options. 403bs are not. So you're just more likely to get those huge fees that are just eating things up. And then the people that are signing us up for these things are being sent by these bad vendors who have high fees. Because only the bad vendors with high fees have the money to send people into your school to try and sign you up, not the good ones. So we were getting free donuts and like, and I'll give you free financial advice. Put all your money into this, you know, indexed annuity or into this, you know, whole life insurance plan. It's going to be a great investment for you. And then we just get eaten alive on those fees. So it's just, it's very predatory. It's taking a lot of money from teachers. They pretend there aren't fees because they're able to couch it in different language and it just kind of hides the overall cost and it's just, it's all around just an icky experience. So I always advocate for this group, 403B wise.org their whole mission is to, you know, help people have a 403B, figure out if they have a good one or not. Get out of bad 403Bs and then find the right investment options for you. And I think that that is the thing to do. You just have to educate yourself because no one else is going to do it for you.

[Joel]

Yeah. That's the site to turn to. Right. And I was going to ask you about that because how is a teacher supposed to know whether their 403 is a good one or not, what fund to be fund or funds to be investing in inside of their 403. And oftentimes it's the noisiest person closest to them that wins out. But 403 wise is a non profit. Right. It's started by, by a former teacher and it's, it's who, Dan Otter, who realized that, that 403 BS are crummy for so many, so many teachers out there. And it's such a great, such a great resource. Some, some teachers also have access to a 457B plan as well. Right. And then how do you think should. Should teachers be? We're talking about, again, not like astronomical salaries. Being able to max, max out multiple retirement accounts is a rarity, I think for teachers, except for maybe the incredibly hyper frugal ones. But how do you think about what teachers should do if they're offered multiple retirement accounts?

[Sean Morgan]

Yeah. So I love you that you brought 457B. And as a side note, I have a friend, Stacy who maxed out the 403B, 457B IRA and HSA as a teacher.

[Joel]

Wow.

[Sean Morgan]

She's impressive off of her side hustle salary. So it is possible if you decide that that's what you want to do,

[Joel]

Stacy's gonna have more money than both of us put together. Sean.

[Sean Morgan]

Oh yeah, for sure. But she actually got to step away after she had a baby and is no longer working and she can just live off of, off of that. And then she occasionally like works with the little pre K kids because she still likes kids. So there's just like so many great things that come from the flexibility of doing that. But that's of course a side note. The 457 is a really awesome account because of the flexibility. If you leave a district, you can now access that money penalty free. If you are investing just in a regular 457. The reason I like 457s for teachers is because even though they're not offered in all states, there's usually only one vendor because it's like a state or a district run thing that they can't offer multiple vendors of it. And they usually have low fees. Not always. So sometimes they have like one and a half percent which is not terrible. But it's not great. Right.

[Joel]

I don't like it.

[Sean Morgan]

But compared to the 2 to 3 it's better, but it's not great. So they can have high fees. Some of them have really low fees though. So if you go in a state that has a really low fee, 457, that's fantastic. Generally 403B wise says why don't you just invest in an IRA? It's not like you're gonna have like tons of money to invest anyway. So the IRA just allows you to choose your vendor, choose your fund and you're going to be able to have lower fees just in general doing that. But my order of operations is generally if you have access to an HSA just because of that triple tax advantage that we don't need to get into. But there's just a lot of benefits if you have access to invest in that with a good provider. That's a fantastic option ira just because you have control over it. And then you can look at your 457 or 403 options.

[Joel]

I would think for a lot of teachers. The Roth IRA as well, specifically Roth

[Sean Morgan]

ira specifically because you're, you're lower salary. It makes sense.

[Joel]

Yeah. Pay the tax now at hopefully a ridiculously low rate and then never be taxed on that money again. Let it grow.

[Sean Morgan]

Yeah.

[Joel]

All right, I got more questions I want to get to you with you Sean. A few more questions specifically to about young teachers, how they should think about their, their future. And I want to talk about personal finance classes in high school as they're becoming more common. I want to get your thoughts on that. We'll get to a few more questions with Sean Morgan right after this. Foreign. For small businesses, every hire matters. But the time and resources required to hire right are Limited. Luckily, LinkedIn Hiring Pro is built for that reality. It's your hiring partner designed to help you hire with confidence by surfacing only the right candidates without turning hiring into another full time job.

[Kate]

Yeah, posting a job, that's not always the hard part. It's the finding, connecting with and screening the right candidates. Hiring Pro streamlines the entire process from drafting your job to shortlisting candidates and conducting AI powered interviews for initial screenings, all through a conversational interface that lets you describe what you need in plain language. Nearly 60% of hires find a candidate to interview within a week. With Hiring Pro, you spend less time searching and more time connecting with the right talent.

[Joel]

Hire right the first time. Post your first job and get $100 off towards your job. [e-mail] how to money that's LinkedIn.com howtomoney terms and conditions apply.

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[Joel]

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Protect the life you've built. With Policygenius, you can see if you could find 20 year life insurance policies starting at just $276 a year for $1 million in coverage. Head to Policygenius.com to compare life insurance quotes from top companies and see how much you could save. That's policygenius.com all right, back so we're back. Still talking with Sean Morgan. Sean wants a lot of teachers to get super wealthy and I'm down with that mission. And it's possible too, which I love too. I love the way Sean helps teachers think through the realities, the hurdles, but also like the potential. So Sean, I'm curious to we talked about the pension for a second, but what about young Teachers who are like, I don't know how long I'm going to do this. The how, like, let's say I'm a, I'm in teaching for three, five, seven years. How much of a benefit is the pension going to be and how should I think about saving for retirement if I'm like, I'm going to teach, but not for forever.

[Sean Morgan]

Yeah. So I'm always an advocate of control what you can control, right. So if you're not sure where you're going to be, which no one's really sure where they're going to be, then putting as much as you can into a defined contribution plan, so that way you are in control of those funds. Absolutely essential. Invest for your future. Because even if you decide to stay in teaching forever and you have an awesome pension, then you also have a defined contribution plan with a ton of money. So sounds great, right? A great retirement, solid financial footing there. How to think about a pension. The pension is going to be there whether you like it or not. So the fact that you can't opt out of a pension in most cases. Some states actually are starting to allow an opt out option, which I think is really cool. But if you can't, then oh well. But the thing is that the pension money is your money. Even if you don't vest, the money you put in still belongs to you. I found this out after I had left. I actually left two different pension systems because I moved around a lot early in my career and one of them wasn't vested. The money is sitting here, but you're not going to get like a pension benefit from it, but you can have it. So I rolled it into my ira, which is great. So even if you're going to leave, just remember to ask, can I have this money back and put it into an ira? And then the other one, they're like, well, you were only here for a couple years but you vested and it'll be worth like 250 bucks a month when you retire. I'm like, well, with the way inflation's going, maybe I'll be able to buy a cheeseburger every month with that money. I don't know. But you know, hey, it's not money, right? And I compared it to like how much it would be worth if I pulled it out and invested. Like it seems good how it is right there. So I left it there. So it just depends on each state that you're in. So I can't really give like general advice, but just ask your state what the benefit's going to be. Can I pull it out? If you move somewhere else and roll it into an ira, which you should be able to, not necessarily the money that your school put in, but the money you put in, if you're not vested, can go with you to an ira.

[Joel]

Can you explain how Social Security works for teachers and how teachers can know whether or not they qualify for Social Security?

[Sean Morgan]

Yes. Every teacher that is contributing to Social Security qualifies for Social Security. Now the way that this works is there used to be an exclusion where you can't get too much of Social Security if you have a pension that has been repealed. So if you are contributing to Social Security, you will get it, period.

[Joel]

And that was the Social Security Fairness Act, I think is what it's called.

[Sean Morgan]

Yes. Yeah, that recently passed, just in the past year or so. And the great thing about that is not every state where you like, you don't teach and contribute to Social Security in every state. Some states you, you have pension and Social Security, which kind of really sucks on the front end because you're having putting money in both. But in some states you don't and actually kind of like the ones where you are only contributing to a pension. Because then when you side hustle and you're paying your FICO taxes on your side hustle, you're building Social Security credits over there. So you get to kind of have a pension through your main job and then you get a build up that Social Security through that side hustle because it only takes, you know, so long to get those credits necessary to pull in. As long as you're dependently putting money in through that side hustle, you'll be able to get that that credit limit necessary to start pulling Social Security. And then as you just keep putting money into that and growing that income, your Social Security benefit will also be there. So you'll have both as a safety net when you retire. Which means you can play with that like I'm going to retire now, postal security and let my pension grow or, or pull pension, let my Social Security grow and kind of play those two things against each other as you consider the right choice for you in retirement.

[Joel]

Yeah. Hearing that baby, by the way, Sean, seven month old. I love it. I love it. No, you're fine. It's great. So I'm curious to know your take as someone who loves personal finance and wants to help teachers with their personal finances. Talk to me about the revolution and laws being passed in states around the country making personal finance a requirement for high schoolers in roughly like half the states now is, Is that something you think is going to make a big difference?

[Sean Morgan]

Yeah. So last time I checked, 31 states had something on the books, not necessarily like, in place, but required in the coming years. And I, I get to teach personal finance now in my school because of these laws, which is fantastic. I love it. And I think that's going to make a huge difference for a few reasons. One, it's going to help the students themselves start off on a good financial foot. And two, teachers are going to get asked kind of at random, like, you're the social studies teacher. You need to teach personal finance now. And as teachers get into it, they're going to be like, I don't know anything about this. I'm going to have to learn about it. And it's going to hopefully start to grow the number of teachers who are financially aware. And that's going to not only help the teachers, it's also going to help the students because their teachers are going to be more and more knowledgeable. My only concern is that it's going to become just a check a box. You know, we're going to get a bunch of institutional level, like, you know, textbooky, really boring personal finance curriculum that's going to just suck the joy out of personal finance because it is, in my opinion, the most relatable, the most flexible. Like, it's got, you know, math that you can use in there. It's got English because you have to be able to explain why you chose to make a certain choice over another choice. It's got, you know, critical thinking. It's got that real, real, real world application. There's just so many benefits to teaching personal finance that I really hope we don't lose psychology.

[Joel]

There's emotion. I mean, yeah, there's all that stuff that goes into personal financing. Yeah.

[Sean Morgan]

I'm trying to connect with schools to be like, let me help you. I want to teach you how to, how to do this. And I'm hoping that we can spread the message and get, you know, if you're in this podcast and you're a teacher, you know, try and teach personal finance, try and teach people around you how to teach it so that way we can get like a really awesome movement and not a dud personal finance movement.

[Joel]

Okay, at the last question, at the end of the day, do you think teaching is it a smart path to pursue financial independence? If someone's on the fence and they're like, I don't know, like, teaching sounds like something I would enjoy doing, but I Also, like, don't want to struggle. Like, how would you, what would you say to them?

[Sean Morgan]

Teaching is a calling, which is what gets us in trouble with the mindset piece. Because people think, oh, well, if I'm going to be a teacher, it's just about, you know, because I want to be a teacher. But I've met multiple teachers who are just, they're not really teachers. They're. Their heart's not in it. They're there just because they didn't know what else to do or, I don't know, there's reasons people come, teachers that are just not because they feel the need to teach. And if you don't have that pull, you're not going to last. I'm just going to tell you right now, it is, in my opinion, the hardest job there is. If you're up for the challenge, if you want to feel like you've accomplished something worthwhile and not just, you know, data entry for some business making a ton of money or whatever, not the know, belittle someone else's job. But a lot of, I've heard a lot of people that are in these big tech companies that just feel like their soul is crushed because they're not doing something that they find meaningful. Teachers find something meaningful. I always tell teachers in my podcast, you are already rich. Your wallet just needs to catch up because we have this, this just beautiful job that we're doing. So if that's something that appeals to, you know that you can become financially independent as a teacher. That doesn't mean it's going to be as easy as the $250,000 salary where, you know, you work for remote from home and you only like kind of work part ish time. And then you get a, you know, be frugal and do whatever you want and you save a bunch of money really fast. Like, there's other paths that are going to get you there faster. I'm not going to say that teachers are going to get there as fast as one of those things, but I know multiple teachers who are multi millionaires because they've just done what they loved, were frugal, set money aside and let it grow. And if all you want to do is do something you love, set money aside, let it grow, and then get that flexibility and independence. You, you get to kind of have a mini retirement every summer as well, where you get to go out and do like fun and exciting things. Like, there's just so many great things about being a teacher on this financial independence movement. If you are willing to go with the downs as well.

[Joel]

All right, man, you sold me. Now maybe I'm going to have to ditch the podcasting job and go be a teacher. That's great, Sean. Thank you so much for taking the time today, man. Where can how to money listeners find out more about you and what you're up to?

[Sean Morgan]

Yeah, so you can find me at Teacher Money show on any social. I don't really post a lot on social, but you can email me at sean s h a u n teachermoneyshow.com and you can find me on any podcast platform at teachermoneyshow.

[Joel]

Love it. Sean, thanks for taking the time today, man. I really appreciate it.

[Sean Morgan]

Thanks for having me on.

[Joel]

That was good stuff with Sean Morgan. And I love his love, his passion for wanting teachers to succeed and thrive. And, man, even just that subtle mindset shift, I think that's one of my big takeaways from this episode, was when it's a calling, it can feel like you're making a sacrifice. And lots of teachers, if they're being honest with themselves, they are. Even if they love the profession, it is a calling they are sacrificing, right, in order to whether it's greater pay they could get elsewhere, whether it's, you know, the time commitment, whether it's just the emotional burden the teaching can be, they're making a sacrifice in order to do this job that they feel passionate about. But I think what Sean's getting at, and I think it's so true, is you don't have to sacrifice your finances completely. You don't have to sacrifice your ability to retire comfortably or your ability to reach financial independence. It's possible to do all those things. And I don't think Sean, what I appreciate about him, too, is he's not making it sound easy, right? And he's like, yeah, there are other ways you could go where you could reach financial independence more quickly. But if this is a calling and if this is something you want to stick to, and by the way, that's the only way it's going to last, is if it feels, if it is more than just a job, that's the only way you're going to stick to it, stick with it. If that's the case, then you can, as a teacher, find a lot of satisfaction and fulfillment in this calling and at the same time, reach financial independence in a reasonable time frame. So I love the message that Sean is spreading. I think that other part of what he said right there at the end really resonated with me. He said you're already rich. So if you want to do what you love and you want to set some money aside, be frugal and then let it grow, then yes, you can kind of have it all. And he said you even get many retirements every year. And I feel like we've been talking about mini retirements more and more on the show and tried our own out for the first time last summer. And I love that idea right? Where as a teacher, if you want to, if you can kind of hit all those buckets like you don't necessarily have to work your tail off during the summer, you might be able to be frugal, let the money grow and take many retirements every year and kind of get some best of both worlds ways of living in there. As you're making a sacrifice to do this job, it doesn't mean that you can't experience a bunch of benefits, financial benefits as well from doing it. So that's going to do it. You can. We'll put links to Sean's podcasts and some other resources like 403B. Wise up in the show notes on our [e-mail] until next time, Best friend out.

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