Ask HTM - Jumbo Down Payments, Insufficient 25% Savings Rate, & a Failure to Financially Launch #1153

Summary

Podcast Summary: "Ask HTM – Jumbo Down Payments, Insufficient 25% Savings Rate, & a Failure to Financially Launch"

How to Money with Joel & Matt – Episode #1153 (June 15, 2026)

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Episode Overview

In this "Ask HTM" episode, Joel and Matt tackle a diverse batch of listener questions—ranging from the wisdom of making a jumbo down payment, to whether a 25% savings rate is really enough, to the challenges of helping an adult child who hasn’t quite launched financially. The hosts’ conversational, friendly style makes personal finance accessible and relatable, as they provide practical advice through real-life listener scenarios. Along the way, they mix in their signature humor and personal anecdotes, making complex money topics feel like a chat between friends.

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Main Themes & Key Segments

• [09:39] Listener Q&A #1: Are Big Down Payments Wise? (Katherine in Chicago)
• [28:43] Listener Q&A #2: Is 25% Savings Enough? Should Roths Always Be Maxed? (Jordan)
• [40:27] Listener Q&A #3: Robo-Advisors vs. DIY Investing at Vanguard (Sandy)
• [54:40] Listener Q&A #4: How to (Finally) Help an Adult Child Launch? (Anonymous Listener)
• [68:10] Beer Review: Whale Fall Salted Yuzu Lager

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Capsule Hotels and Frugal Travel (Lighthearted Opener: 03:37–08:19)

• Matt and Joel discuss the rise of capsule hotels. Both are open to staying in these super-efficient accommodations, finding parallels with airline travel:
  • “If I get to pay less, I’m okay. Treat me like a sheep. That’s fine—herd me back there, stuff me in…” (Joel, 06:04)
• Savings from flexible travel options and how stacking “capsule” travel and budget flights could supercharge budget travel, especially with awkward layovers and saving hundreds on flights.

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Listener Q&A #1: Are Jumbo Down Payments Smart?

Question from Katherine in Chicago ([09:39])

Katherine’s Situation:

• Saved ~$200k for a down payment (planning on 40-50%)
• Wants flexibility to take a future pay cut; fears a high housing payment could lock her into a high-paying, less fulfilling career.
• Down payment is in high-yield savings; no debt.

Key Discussion Points:

• Huge Congratulations: “That’s an incredible feat, right? That’s like total baller status, Katherine.” – Matt ([11:57])
• Smart, Goal-Oriented Planning: Joel and Matt praise Katherine’s foresight in mapping out lifestyle and career goals, versus just maxing out borrowing power.
  • “When you handle your money in a purposeful, thoughtful way…you can really start living a rich life.” (Joel, [12:00])
  • They caution: Agents/lenders often push people to their maximum, not what feels safe or flexible for the buyer ([13:13]).
• Should You Put Down More Than 20%?
  • Typical advice: don’t put down more than necessary (opportunity cost of lost investing gains, reduced liquidity, etc)
  • For Katherine’s unique context—prioritizing flexibility and lower future risk—a larger down payment makes sense, as long as she maintains liquidity and keeps investing for the future ([18:24]).
  • Peace of mind and optionality can be worth the opportunity cost.
• Don’t Go Overboard: Putting down 50% or paying cash could leave you under-diversified (“all your eggs in one basket”). Maintain a healthy emergency fund and ongoing investing ([20:16]).
• Consider House Hacking: Don’t optimize exclusively for lowest cost—think about growing into your space, renting out rooms, increasing life and financial flexibility. (“Obligatory house hacking mention!” [26:18])
• Adjustable Rate Mortgages (ARMs): Shop around for mortgage options, including ARMs, especially if they offer significant savings. Don’t rule them out based on old stigma ([22:13]).

Memorable Quotes:

• “Just make sure that you are maintaining cash on hand...for home maintenance needs. That always ends up showing up in the most unexpected time.” – Matt ([20:17])
• “It comes down to what you’re optimizing for...If you love not having debt, that’s valid—but keep investing pretty aggressively for your future as well.” – Matt ([20:16])

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Listener Q&A #2: Is a 25% Savings Rate Enough?

Question from Jordan ([28:43])

Jordan’s Situation:

• Works at a public university, spouse at a municipality with excellent retirement matches (8.25% and 2:1 matching)
• Has Roth IRAs and brokerage accounts
• With everything, growing a 25% savings rate, but can’t max everything at once; wants to keep flexibility for future goals (5–10 years out)
• Asks: Is maxing Roths necessary if workplace plans are strong? Is 25% enough?

Key Discussion Points:

• Don’t Stress about “Maxing Everything Out”: 25% savings is excellent, far above national average. Hitting “fire” retirement in 10 years isn’t for everyone ([31:45]).
  • “A 25% savings rate is very good. That’s far above the national average… not Fire in a decade, but a really strong base.” – Joel ([31:49])
• Personal Choice and Balance: FIRE requires aggressive, sometimes extreme, savings and lifestyle. Hosts have done this, but acknowledge it’s not for everyone, and they’ve eased off the most extreme habits themselves ([32:18]).
• Don’t Neglect Tax-Advantaged Accounts: Prioritize Roth IRAs over taxable brokerage, since you can always withdraw contributions (but not earnings) penalty-free, keeping flexibility for medium-term goals ([35:13]).
• Diversification: Even with great workplace plans, it’s smart to invest outside those accounts; you might not stay there forever, and you need flexibility if things change ([36:24]).
• Delayed Gratification: Personal anecdotes show the value of sacrificing in the short-term for long-term gains (e.g. delaying a “master bath” to buy investment real estate, or living in a duplex with a tenant as an adult) ([37:48], [40:03]).

Memorable Quotes:

• “If you love your job and your way of life, yet you’re taking extreme measures to force more money into your investments at the expense of the here and now, it can feel like you’re putting unnecessary pressure on yourself.” – Joel ([33:42])
• “Being a little weird? I think it’s going to mean we’re in a much more solid financial position before long.” – Matt ([39:44])

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Listener Q&A #3: Vanguard Robo-Advisors — Worth It?

Question from Sandy ([40:27])

Sandy’s Situation:

• Rolled an old 401k into a Vanguard IRA.
• Uses Vanguard Digital Advisor/robo for various accounts.
• Asks: Is auto-rebalancing the same as a digital advisor? Is it ever worth it to pay for a human advisor at Vanguard instead?

Key Discussion Points:

• Robo-Advisors’ Niche: Vanguard’s Digital Advisor is a way to keep clients in-house as other platforms (like Betterment/Wealthfront) innovate ([45:23]).
• Fees: Vanguard’s robo is slightly cheaper (~0.2% of assets) than most competitors, but interface/tools aren’t as slick. For DIY-ers, cost is still king ([45:23]).
• Features: Digital Advisors offer rebalancing, simple planning, sometimes tax loss harvesting (useful in taxable accounts; less so in IRAs) ([47:27]).
• Auto-Rebalancing vs. Human Advisors:
  • Auto-rebalancing helps maintain target allocation, but for early wealth-builders it’s not a huge differentiator—saving on fees/more investing is more important ([48:15]).
  • Paying more for access to a human advisor (Vanguard’s 0.3% fee) could be worth it for those needing more support, but you can often get one-time, flat-fee advice from a vetted fiduciary instead ([51:56]).
  • For one-off planning and not ongoing management, using an external advisor on an as-needed basis could be a better value ([52:19]).

Memorable Quotes:

• “When you are in the wealth-building phase, rebalancing is pretty straightforward; not something I would be overly concerned about.” – Matt ([50:24])
• “Paying for the advice you need when you need it...might save you more and be a better value.” – Joel ([52:23])

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Listener Q&A #4: How to Get Your 40-Year-Old Child Unstuck Financially

Question from Anonymous Listener ([54:40])

Situation:

• Parent has adult son (age 40) with poor credit, history of financial mismanagement
• Son has a good but seasonal job, tends to spend everything; mom helped set up Roth IRA/savings (struggled to even do so)
• Son considering buying a house, but doesn’t know how to handle credit or next steps
• Parent not sure where to start; has always been responsible herself

Key Discussion Points:

• First: This is Emotionally Tough. Joel and Matt acknowledge how hard it is for a parent to try to keep helping a grown child ("...you can lead a horse to water, but you can’t make them drink.” – Joel, [56:03]).
• Setting Boundaries & Avoiding Enabling: The main issue isn’t specific financial steps (e.g., getting a secured credit card)—it’s the need for the parent to stop enabling, and for the son to find motivation and self-reliance ([56:28]–[57:59]).
  • “I think she’s enabled him.” – Matt ([56:28])
  • “He should be a grown freaking man doing his own thing at 40 years old.” – Matt ([56:03])
• Tough Love & The Power of Boundaries:
  • The hosts recommend reading Boundaries by Dr. Henry Cloud ([60:07])—this is fundamentally a relationship/dynamics problem, not a finance knowledge problem.
  • The solution: clear, direct communication that changes will happen (“a year from now, this is gonna look different…the gravy train is done.” – Matt & Joel, [62:37])
  • Without boundaries, resentment will grow and the child may never take action for themselves ([63:02]).
• Participation is Everything: The adult child’s motivation must come from him; the parent cannot “walk for him” ([66:48]).
• Not About Tactics: While things like setting up a bank account, credit card, and automatic saving are important, the core problem is a lack of grit/stick-to-it-iveness.
  • “The #1 trait for succeeding with money is grit.” – Joel ([65:21])

Memorable Quotes:

• “She’s walking for him, you know? He’s not on his two feet.” – Matt ([66:54])
• “I did that (opened a savings & Roth) with my 12-year-old earlier this year...it was very easy, and a joy.” – Matt ([67:13])

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Beer Review: Whale Fall Salted Yuzu Lager

[68:10]

• Collaboration brew by Creature Comforts; designed to pair well with seafood.
• “That’s the first thing I noticed—the salt and the floral, orangey, lemony, tangeriney flavors from the Yuzu…It almost drinks like a Gatorade or a Goza.” – Matt ([68:43])
• Great summer, beach, and food beer. Hosts appreciate the “depth” the Yuzu adds beyond lemon.

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Notable Quotes & Moments

• “Money decisions are always about trade-offs: What are you optimizing for? Peace of mind, or maximum returns? There’s no right answer for everyone.” – Joel ([21:06])
• “Society says you should have this, this is what’s normal. What does it look like to be a little abnormal? A little weird? I think it’s going to mean a much more solid financial position before long.” – Matt ([39:44])
• “The rubber meets the road in terms of relationship and money dynamics…these are the questions that are more lifestyle related; this is what we mean.” – Joel ([67:53])

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Quick Episode Timeline

• [09:39] – Jumbo Down Payments (Katherine)
• [28:43] – Savings Rate, Roth vs Brokerage (Jordan)
• [40:27] – Robo Advisors/Auto Rebalancing (Sandy)
• [54:40] – Failing to Launch (Anonymous)
• [68:10] – Beer Review: Whale Fall Salted Yuzu Lager

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Tone & Style

Friendly, accessible, lightly humorous, and direct (“best friends out” energy). There’s a continual encouragement of intentionality, long-term thinking, and being “a little weird” in pursuit of good, sustainable money habits.

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Final Takeaways

• Personal finance is about fit: Your goals, risk tolerance, and balance matter more than blindly following any one strategy.
• Don’t let the perfect be the enemy of the good: A solid savings rate and future planning beat extreme frugality for its own sake.
• Boundaries are key in family money issues: Set limits for the well-being of everyone involved.
• DIY investing is usually sufficient, but tools like Robo Advisors can help if you value automation, discipline, or tax strategies.
• Celebrate the wins: Whether saving for a big down payment or sticking to your “weird” financial path, be proud of smart, intentional choices.

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Full episode and show notes available at howtomoney.com.

Transcript

[Matt]

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[Joel]

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[Matt]

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[Joel]

Welcome to how to Money. I'm Joel.

[Matt]

I am Matt.

[Joel]

Today we're going to answer some of your listener questions.

[Matt]

That's right. Happy Monday to everyone out there. Joel, did you have a fantastic weekend

[Joel]

by the sickness in the house? Other than that, pretty good.

[Matt]

Oh, that's right.

[Joel]

Yeah.

[Matt]

I'm sorry. I wasn't even thinking when I said that.

[Joel]

Well, you just kind of lay low when that happens. And actually, sometimes we better say, sometimes

[Matt]

that's a good thing. Sometimes it's like just what the doctor ordered.

[Joel]

It's like chilling.

[Matt]

Literally. That's what needs to happen. Because they need to stay close to a toilet. Someone needs to look at it.

[Joel]

True story. I get sick like once a year for two days, and it's usually in the beginning of the year. So I've avoided it.

[Matt]

But it's been a minute since I've had what y' all dealt with, which is more the stomach. Stomach issues. I feel like I get like a cold that'll last me like a week or so occasionally. Anyway, enough about weekend sickness.

[Joel]

We're mostly healthy people is what we're trying to say.

[Matt]

Yeah, yeah. We've got listener questions to get to Listeners asking about jumbo down payments for a place she's thinking about buying. Another listener is stressed. He's kind of wondering if 25% savings rate is enough, is he socking away enough money? And Joel, it turns out Vanguard is getting into the, the robo advisor game. Oh no, is this the beginning of the end? Is one of our favorite low cost brokerages. Are they about to turn tail? Not turn tail. What do you call it? Turn coat, you know, reveal their true colors. I'm mixing all my metaphors.

[Joel]

Or are they just trying to be all things to all people, you know,

[Matt]

But I think we know where that tends to lead you. Anyway, we'll talk about Vanguard Robo advising here in a minute.

[Joel]

But you kind of want them to stay like Aldi, like, and just have that kind of straight up business model where if you're coming to Aldi, you know, it's because you want the Aldi brand goods. You don't want the high speed.

[Matt]

You want them to stay like lightweight, nimble to specialize in what they're good at as opposed to dabbling in waters that they're less familiar with.

[Joel]

That being said, there are some good things about the robo advisors first from Vanguard as well. So we'll talk about that. But I just wanted to pose a quick question to you, Matt. I was reading about capsule hotels that are like on the rise. And I just love when people are inventive.

[Matt]

Like you're sleeping in a coffin.

[Joel]

Pretty much, yeah. It's, it's like I've, I've stayed in especially in like big super pacs, tight cities, New York, San Francisco. There are hotels that are just tiny, right? That are just small. And it's basically the bed and room to walk around. The bed and a bathroom. The capsule hotels take this even, even further. And I love staying in, in small hotel rooms. I have no problem with it because guess what, I'm usually there to sleep and not to do much else 100% because I'm, I'm like out and about otherwise when I'm visiting a place. So. But these capsule hotels are bringing the price down and especially how much do they cost?

[Matt]

Like just, I guess it depends where.

[Joel]

Right?

[Matt]

Yeah. I'm assuming a capsule in Tokyo is going to be more expensive than a capsule in New Orleans, right?

[Joel]

Or something 100%. And you know, might not even be available in New Orleans because there might not be enough, enough demand. But in part of it is how long are you going to stay in the capsule? Right? Like, so maybe, maybe you only need it for five hours instead.

[Matt]

So eight hours so I can get some shut eye.

[Joel]

Yeah. Or maybe four because you. Were you out drinking too late, man. I don't know. I mean, who knows? Like there. But I think there's just more.

[Matt]

Is that the New Orleans.

[Joel]

Yes. New Orleans way. So they're just kind of more flexible in that way. And so there's more room for savings because it's a kind of unique or different business model. Would you stay in a capsule hotel to save money?

[Matt]

100%.

[Joel]

Yeah.

[State Farm Announcer]

Yeah.

[Matt]

I mean, for all the reasons we just talked about. It's like, I mean. Yeah. If you are only looking for someplace to spend the night. My question is, would you? Because, like, I totally would. Because I'm a normal. I'm an average 5 foot 11 and 11 and a half, actually. That's taller than the average, average American male, I believe is 5 foot 9. So I'm a couple inches taller as a 5 foot 11er. I'm not even. I'm not even gonna go with a five foot eleven and a half. I'm not in middle school anymore.

[Joel]

I tell everyone I meet. Matt's above average. That's what I told him.

[Matt]

But you are a solid like six inches taller than me, aren't you?

[Joel]

Like five, five, six.

[Matt]

I'm sorry, six, five. Yeah, yeah, six, five. How do you feel being a solid half a foot taller than me? Because that is one of the constraining fact. Assuming they're not putting in like single extra longs in there, which is that even longer.

[Joel]

So I'm guessing my feet are hidden the end or falling off the end of the mattress, which I. But honestly, I'm kind of used to

[Matt]

that, like foot's literally on the door of. Of one of these capsules.

[Joel]

I've kind of gotten used to that, like curling up when I need to curl up. And like. Yeah, it's so I think I probably would save money. It's the same thing when I book an airline. And I am. I know some people are anti basic economy. Treat me like. Treat me like a sheep. Like that's fine. Just herd me back there, stuff me in, and if I get to pay less, I'm okay. And I'm just not like a premium economy or first class kind of guy. That's just not where I want to spend my money. There's other things I can do.

[Matt]

Not yet.

[Joel]

Maybe someday.

[Matt]

But like, I bet someday you'll change your ways.

[Joel]

You never know. But right now, as a much more.

[Matt]

As a much taller than average individual out There.

[Joel]

But right now I'm willing to be a sardine to save money still.

[Matt]

Including in a capsule. I think so.

[Joel]

I think so.

[Matt]

Yeah, I think so too.

[Joel]

And so I like the rise. I like there's just more options. Money saving options in particular especially.

[Matt]

You know what this makes me think? Okay, we're taught. You're taught. You're mentioning flying. One of the worst parts about taking advantage of a really good deal on a flight are the fact that you're. It's like a red eye, right. Or you're getting in super duper late. But if you also have the ability to. And again, I don't know how much these things cost. Like if you're paying 50 bucks for. To be able to use it for eight hours or something like that, I would be much more willing to say to take the flight that's going to save me $750 because it's an international flight. Knowing that I can drop 50 bucks once I land in order to, you know, like, let's say there's a six hour layover or something weird. That's a part of the itinerary as well. I love that idea. I love the ability that you can maybe couple some of these things together, save a ton of money without completely sacrificing your ability to feel like a human being once you actually arrive at your dest. Like that's the worst part of taking advantage of some of those discount fares is if it's just a terrible. Yeah, the jet lag I think can be so brutal. And you're like, man, I don't even remember going to that museum. I was just like a walking zombie. Which I find impacts me more and more as I get older.

[Joel]

Yeah, I agreed. And so that's another advantage, I think. Yeah, I think so. And so you can take that 6am flight and you can book the capsule hotel and you can save money on both, but it allows you to feel like not like a zombie when you're doing it for sure. Okay, cool. Totally. Capsule hotels. I guess we're fourth one.

[Matt]

Haven't had the opportunity to take advantage. It makes me think of like Waymo. I'm still dying for the chance to be able to take awaymo somewhere. I just haven't had the opportunity to. But I'm very excited for the future, Joel.

[Joel]

I know, me too. Bring the Waymos on.

[Matt]

Bring the sci fi.

[Joel]

Some people are frightened by them. I'm not.

[Matt]

You're like, oh, I'm not having a meal at this restaurant. I'm just drinking that Pink goo. What's it made from? Oh, I don't know. It's got all the nutrients I need. Yeah, just kidding.

[Joel]

No, let's not. Let's not go that far. All right, let's finish the beer we're having on this episode. Matt, this is a whale fall. It's a salted yuzu lager. Whale fall.

[Matt]

Whale fall.

[Joel]

Okay. I don't know why it's a weird name, but we will give our thoughts on this beer at the end of the episode.

[Matt]

Yes, we will. This is our Ask how to Money episode and per usual, you can send us your voice memo. Just go to that app on your phone, send us a roughly 90 second voice memo stating your name and the question that you might have for us. And here's the thing, it doesn't even need to be a dorky numbers Roth IRA question. Honestly, the more lifestyle oriented it is that just happens to include some numbers. Those are my absolute favorite. So send those over to us. You can email them to howtomoneypodmail.com Joel, let's get to our first question, which is from a listener who she might be planning for a pay cut here in the future.

[Katherine (Listener)]

Hey, Matt and Joel, Katherine in Chicago here. I'm looking to potentially buy my own place for the first time this year and I wanted to get your thoughts on something I've been considering. I make a good salary right now, but I really want the financial flexibility in the future to be able to take a pay cut to work somewhere interesting that can't pay as much. So with that in mind, my concern with buying a home has been the risk of locking myself into a monthly payment that basically limits me to only working at a particular type of company. Chicago can be quite expensive, unfortunately. And for what I want, a normal 20% down payment will probably result in monthly payments that are higher than what I want. So to compensate, I've been saving a really big down payment with the plan to put down like 40 to 50% in order to bring the monthly payment down to a level I'd be comfortable with. My down payment fund is now up to about 200k, which I'm pretty proud of. But I feel like I remember you guys maybe discouraging people in the past from putting down larger than necessary down payments. I'm wondering what flaws do you see with this plan that I should be considering? The down payment is chilling right now in a high yield savings account, so it wouldn't require me to sell off any investments or dip into a 401k or anything. And I don't have any debt currently. I'd be really interested in hearing how you would think about this if you were in my shoes. Thanks, guys.

[Matt]

Nigel, put yourself in her shoes.

[Joel]

Okay. I think that's helpful, actually. Right. To put yourself in someone else's shoes because it's always easy to see things from your own perspective. But if you can kind of like enter into somebody else's, then. And let's try to do that with Katherine.

[Matt]

And luckily it's not too difficult to. Because I think she's attaining for some of the same kind of flexibility and like, far, you know, further off goals that we talk about a lot here in the show.

[Joel]

Yeah. And I love. First, I just want to call out that Katherine is planning ahead. Right. In a, in a big way. And that is like when you're talking about smart personal finance management, like thinking and projecting years down the road as to kind of what you want to accomplish, what your goals are, that's huge. Right? That's really, really. Because if you don't have those goals in mind, if you don't kind of know where you're heading or have a general direction of where you're trying to go, you're probably not going to get there. If you're trying to kind of spur the moment, be like, think I want to buy a house this year. Going to be much more difficult than if you're like, I think I want to buy a house three, four years from now. And she saved up $200,000. That's incredible feat, right?

[Matt]

That's like total baller status, Catherine.

[Joel]

100%.

[Matt]

Way to go.

[Joel]

Yeah. She should be just, like, so proud of herself for having that discipline and that foresight and to retain margin. Right. Even when she's buying a house, like, she's thinking ahead about that too. Like, when I buy a house, what do I want my life to look like and what abilities do I want to have even after that home purchase? That, again, is something that most people are not really considering. They're just kind of thinking, what can I afford right now? And the average real estate agent or mortgage lender, they're not going to hesitate to tell you what they think you can afford, but that's often more than what will ideally fit into your budget. And I still remember back, my dad was told, like, hey, no, buy something like a little bit more than what you feel like you can comfortably afford right now because you're gonna get a raise down the line. And pretty soon, terrible advice.

[Matt]

Pretty soon, that mortgage from your lender Right.

[Joel]

It was from a coworker I think. Right. And he was like, well you're gonna do, you're middle management and you're gonna keep moving up and then when you lose your job, it's like massively uncomfortable. Right. That mortgage payment, of course. And so just, just bad advice. Better to start off being comfortable and then down the line to be like, oh my gosh, this is like a pittance of my monthly budget than to kind of go beyond those bounds and make yourself uncomfortable later down the line for when things that you couldn't predict happen.

[Matt]

Yeah, well, I like what you said though is to be on guard, specifically with your realtor or the bank or whatever. Because yeah, the fact is I think they are going to stretch you and it has a lot to do with the fact that your incentives aren't aligned. Right. Like, basically like if you're talking to a realtor, they're saying, I mean fact is, the more expensive of a home you purchase, the more they are making out like a bandit. Right.

[Joel]

3% of 800,000 is better than 3% of 600,000.

[Matt]

They don't care if you are feeling stretched on the mortgage payments a year from now. All they know is that they getting paid now.

[Joel]

And like, I'm sure some of them truly do care, like, but like their

[Matt]

bias is, but the fact is the incentives aren't at all aligned. Right. There's plenty of realtors out there who I know do an awesome job and I don't want all the realtors to reach out and be like, oh, you're totally dragging us through the mud. I know there are some, definitely some good ones out there, but sure, I will go to bat a little bit at least for the lender or the banker because in that case their incentives like they have, they do have more of an interest in your ability to make payments each and every month because they are the one who is lending you that money. And so you don't typically think of a lender having your best interest in mind, but they're basically saying like, let me help you. Granted, they're only looking at your debt to income ratio and ultimately it comes down to you and your ability to decide how much of you know you want to be parted with every single month going towards your mortgage versus some of the other things that you want to be able to do in life later on down the road. And so I do think keeping your monthly housing expense more conservative is going to mean that you can funnel more money towards investing for your future, for saving, for this potential upcoming work pivot. I love the idea of making this conservative choice because it's going to just going to reduce stress, it's going to give you more options and give you more choice having to stay in a job that you don't like because it's the only way to keep paying your mortgage. Mortgage man. That is not my idea of a good time. Especially the way she talked about it too because she said I could do that were I to continue working for the type of company that I'm currently working for. Which told me something without her stating it directly. Right. It's like whether it's in an industry that she doesn't love, but it pays really well or the culture. Yeah. Or maybe it's the culture of that specific company. But yeah, she, it felt bigger than that.

[Joel]

Could be the hours, the expectations and she's just like either one of these,

[Matt]

maybe it's a really good thing, maybe it's healthcare, but it's also like, oh, if I'm going to continue to be a doctor, at least the type of doctor that I've been, it's going to continue to mean crazy hours or lack of balance, being on call, whatever it might be. As opposed to doing a more of a non profit profit approach.

[Joel]

But yeah, she might be doing one of those like micro dirty jobs and she's like, I'm just tired of being covered in manure all day. I don't know, like who knows?

[Matt]

You never know. So the conventional approach is to invest as much as you can for your far off retirement future. But what you're doing here is you're making hay while the sun shines and you are saving a lot more while your income is higher, planning for that eventual season where your earnings are likely going to decrease. And I think that's just incredibly wise. And again, smart planning as you're looking off into the future.

[Joel]

And again, rare. But this is, this is the kind of thing that you and I talk about regularly, Matt, because we just, we want people to have kind of that more foresight so that they increase their optionality instead of buying a home actually leading to a decrease. And we're not in all likelihood going to see home prices rise the way they have over the past 15 years. Over the next 15 years. I would be, I would be like so shocked, it's not even funny if that were the case because we've just seen ridiculously outsized gains in the housing market after a plummeting in values and so don't, don't count on that. And if, if the housing market is in more of a plateau state, then you might find yourself in a hard position if you overbuy. Right. Yeah.

[Matt]

And so they could also increase. Like, that's like you just, you just don't know. So you. I don't think you should be making a financial decision based on appreciation necessarily at all, as opposed to, I think, how Catherine's thinking about it, which is like, well, what am I going to be able to do? How, like, how am I going to be tethered to my job or not tethered to my.

[Joel]

So when it comes to Putting down more 20%, she, she mentioned that we're not usually keen on that. And I would say the reason that we're not is because of the opportunity cost. Right. So much of the time those dollars would be better off on average, over time invested rather than put towards a down payment. There's like a tax benefit, Right. To putting it in tax advantaged accounts. And then we're talking about just kind of the rate of return of investing versus having less mortgage debt. That's usually kind of where our head is at when we're, when we're discussing this. But, but I'll say this, it's also true that rates aren't as appealing as they used to be and that you're in a slightly different situation with your career goals. So given kind of where you're at, Kathryn, I would say putting down more in order to keep your payment manageable. It makes more sense than it does for the typical listener who's considering putting down, let's say, 30 plus percent. Right. And so 20% down gives you the best rates in terms of. So oftentimes it's like, why go hog wild? Why reduce your liquidity? And for most people that's how we would respond. But in your case, putting down more is like this intentional move to optimize for something different.

[Matt]

Right.

[Joel]

For something else entirely. And that's ultimately for your own ability, like your ability to sleep at night and to have those choices moving into the future so that you're able to get the home that you want, that you've saved up incredibly well for, but that you also have the ability to pivot and make a difference choice when it comes down to your job moving forward in the future.

[Matt]

That's right, yeah. That sense of security that Catherine, that you are buying by deploying that money towards your home purchase is going to be huge. This is essentially like the safe approach to that down payment. And that's going to help ensure that you're actually able to change jobs when you want, not just hope that you can change jobs and take something that's a little less lucrative if the market cooperates. Right. And so Joel's basically talking about, like, well, yeah, from a financial standpoint, you're likely to see outsized returns were you to invest that. But there's no guarantee, at least when

[Joel]

you look at averages. Right. But even. Yeah, when you look at the last 50 years, Matt, do you know how often the market has produced right, in that average 8 to 10% return?

[Matt]

Very, very low.

[Joel]

It's like five out of the 50 years.

[Matt]

Because usually it's either much more or less. That's right, yeah. And it's, again, it's not to guarantee that it will even continue at that average rate either. But so essentially putting more down, though, is going to make more, like, psychological sense and, like, where you're taking a load off, essentially. But it'll also financially allow you to walk away if your job is draining you and you need a change of pace. And so for that reason, I think putting down more is great. If you are looking at a ton More, like 40 to 50%, that might be overboard, especially if it means, like, mostly eliminating your total cash position or cutting out investing entirely. Like, you certainly want to keep some cash on hand for the sake of liquidity, for home maintenance needs. That's something that always ends up kind of showing up in the most unexpected

[Joel]

time, sneaking up on people, especially these

[Matt]

days when it's the least convenient for you. And so I'm okay with you putting more money down for sure, but just make sure that you are maintaining cash on hand. Like, if you put enough down, you're going to have that lower locked in monthly payment. But I still want you investing pretty aggressively for your future as well. It comes down to what it is that you're optimizing for. And if you love not having debt, I also personally have a friend who is looking to save up. They're looking to buy sometime next year, and they're looking at putting down most

[Joel]

likely, close to 50%.

[Matt]

And guess what? They hate mortgages. They do not like a set amount going out of their bank account every single month. And so to the extent that they can minimize that in, that's just something that they're baking into their financial equation. It's a more conservative approach. But what they're optimizing there for is peace of mind moving forward.

[Joel]

And that, again, that is a personal, personal choice. But if you go, we want you to still be diversified I think that's kind of what you're getting at, Matt, is like, yeah, paying down, bringing more of a down payment is wise, but if you're like, you can, you can go too hard in that direction now

[Matt]

you could say like, oh, I'm gonna pay cash because I really, really, really don't like mortgage. And it's like, oh man, you are literally putting all of your eggs, or in this case dollars, because literally you're not storing up eggs into one basket, that being that particular home. And oof.

[Joel]

You. Yeah, it's really risky to do that at that point. You'll have a paid off home and you'll have all of your monthly income. You can invest a lot more moving forward. But still, I like the idea of kind of trying to do both at the same time, which I do think she's going for. Agree.

[Matt]

Right. Because she like the whole point of us going through this thought exercise is so that she could have options down the road to take a less demanding job perhaps. And so the fact it totally aligns with the ability for her to also put more down, but not all of it down to pay for in cash because she still yet again wants to have additional options down the road.

[Joel]

So I want to.

[Matt]

Catherine, AKA Options, coming out of Chicago,

[Joel]

Illinois, I wanted to mention too, that's her nickname before we're going to call her that. Yeah, I just gave it to her Options. Okay, so we've been mentioning this lately kind of regularly on the show, but like, I just want to, for Catherine in particular, say to shop around for mortgages because what you're going to be offered is going to vary wildly and credit unions are obviously a great place to turn, but get at least three quotes. And I would also say consider adjustable rate mortgages. This is one of those things where so many people still have a bad taste in their mouth. Matt. Or just a vague idea that adjustable rate mortgages are the worst thing ever and that they, they're going to hurt themselves financially if they partake in one. But there are so many arms are so much better than they were at the time of the Great Recession. So. Oh yeah, I just might be surprised at how much a great ARM product can lower your monthly payment without adding much risk. And so for, for anybody out there buying a home, for Catherine in particular, the proper question is not how much I can afford and then trying to buy the fanciest top end home and using an arm right, to allow you to do that. A better filter I would say is like, well, what payment still allows A good life. If my income drops, if my priorities change or something goes wrong. An adjustable rate mortgage can help with that by lowering your rate. So just shop both. If the gap between interest rate is not very large between a 30 year fixed and an adjustable rate mortgage, like a 10:1 ARM or something like that, then go with a 30 year fixed. But if it's substantial, take the savings on the ARM and just be planning ahead for that. Especially when you've saved up so much. It shows me that you're risk averse, Catherine, and that you might benefit from an arm, even though that might sound a little scary too. And maybe we're being too conservative here, Matt, but I've just, we've seen too many folks just end up in a house poor position. They've let housing enter, become take up too much of their monthly budget and it just hamstrings their ability to build wealth and enjoy their day to day lives even and just enjoy the home they're living in because it's become a financial anvil around their neck instead of this like lovely place to raise a family and build a life and have a community. So I think especially in a high,

[Matt]

higher cost of living area like Chicago, I could totally see that being the case where it's just like I'm not looking for something, for something super nice, I'm just looking for like a decent place to rest my head, looking for a capsule hotel version of an apartment or whatever when I come home from work. But even that in a higher cost of living city I think could be a financial burden. At the same time though, Catherine, I didn't hear you mention anything else from a, a goals standpoint. Like you didn't, I didn't hear you mention anything necessarily about a significant other or family or anything like that. But I guess I would challenge you to not necessarily think only of indexing for low cost or indexing only for affordability as opposed to, again, if we're talking about options here, I love the idea of you thinking ahead and being like, well maybe instead of going for the place in the really nice building in the nicer part of town, maybe that looks like getting a place in the building that's not quite as nice or maybe in the neighborhood that's a little more up and coming, if that allows you, instead of getting a one one to maybe get a two one or a two two and to allow for some growth there, like let's say you're not interested in growing a family, even like living in a house with a friend could be awesome from a life fulfillment standpoint, but then also from a financial standpoint. Right? Like if you are, maybe you're not splitting the mortgage 50 50. I mean you can work it out however you want. Like maybe it is 5050 and then you cover all utilities and whatever other expenses and repairs and all that. But. Or maybe it's a little bit less because you know you are receiving the benefit of seeing the equity grow in that property. I'm just saying, don't only look at the price and being overly focused on being frugal as opposed to thinking, okay, what might the next seven plus years look like from a housing standpoint and allowing for additional flexibility in that realm as well.

[Joel]

Yeah. Can it generate some Inc. I agree. Like that's, that's a great way to think about it too, because that, that's the flip side of the equation that can also provide more financial flexibility.

[Matt]

House hacking. There we go.

[Joel]

We got it in the obligatory house hacking mention. We've got more to get to on this episode, including we're going to talk about, hey, if you have great workplace retirement accounts, do you even need to consider the Roth? We'll talk about that and more right after this.

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[Matt]

All right, buddy, we are back from the break here. In a minute we're going to hear or take a question from a listener who might need to have a tough conversation with a family member. But before we get to that one, let's hear from a listener who is got a solid job working for a university.

[Jordan (Listener)]

How to money fam, this is Jordan. I just have a question for you guys. I work for a public university and my wife works for a municipality. Upon vestment, I will keep my employer's 8.25% match and my wife her employer would match two to one her contributions. We have individual Roths and a regular brokerage account through Vanguard. Do we need to stress about maxing our Roths when our employers have great retirement plans? Maxing work retirement and Roth really seems like we won't be able to invest in our regular brokerage account and use money for future goals. We have in the near 5 to 10 year future putting money in a Roth and my retirement through employer has me at a 25% savings rate outside of anything I put in the brokerage after initial investments. What are your thoughts on this? Thanks.

[Joel]

Are we stressing Jordan out? Matt?

[Matt]

What a slacker. Jordan.

[Joel]

If you can't get to a 20%

[Matt]

savings rate, Jordan, he didn't say anything about an HSA. What are you doing with your life? Jordan? Just kidding.

[Joel]

No, but I wonder sometimes the way we talk about that, are we stressing people out, making them feel like they need to do too much? I want to strike a balance here.

[Matt]

I think he used the word just as in lieu of should I be worried about. It's like, oh, are you really worried about it? No, no. But should I be paying any attention to. I don't, I don't know. He doesn't sound like a stressed out individual to me. What do you say?

[Joel]

Pretty, pretty chill. I'm pretty sure. I just like want all listeners, Jordan included to know that like.

[Matt]

Well, yeah, it just depends though. It depends what your goals are and what you're getting after. Right. Because like if he is in the the fire camp, if he wants to financial be financially independent, retire early at a fairly young age. Right. That's the retire early part then. I mean he's gonna have to do better then. Yes. Like Like, I think back to, okay, so this is. I'm going to pick on myself because, like, when Kate and I discovered fire, I was like, babe, we're going to do this. And she's like, yeah, babe, let's do this. And there are literally years early on when we first discovered that our savings rate was like 70%, like 50% savings rate was not abnormal for us.

[Joel]

Humble brag.

[Matt]

I'm just saying people are just like, why are you guys so poor? And it's just like, well, future Matt. And well, you said a two million

[Joel]

dollar income, so it was pretty easy to do.

[Matt]

It was easy to do that. No, I mean, we were like, you remember the early versions of this, you know, early on in the show. Like, that was closer to those early years when like we were eating a dollar a meal per person per day. Right. It's like literally when it was just Kate and I were literally, our grocery budget, we're looking at six bucks a day. And we did that. When you do that month after month, year after year, you have the ability to sock away a ton of money. An inordinate amount of money based on, compared to what it is that we're making. That's all I'm saying. So, yeah, I don't want to stress Jordan out, but if he is interested in this, then it might be worth considering.

[Joel]

Yes, that's all I'll say. Well, and I think we should Clarify, like, a 25% savings rate is very good.

[Matt]

It's very good.

[Joel]

That is like far above the national average, obviously. And although it's not going, you're not going to get like fire in a decade with a 25% savings rate. So this is like really a personal choice in some ways. Some people are keen to achieve it, like asap, as quickly as possible. They're willing to give up a whole heck of a lot. Kind of like you were willing to do there, Matt, as far as grocery consumption, one older car for a long time. I mean, you really have to make a lot of decisions that are like countercultural in order to achieve.

[Matt]

Yes, 100%. It was very countercultural. Like, it also makes me think of some of the early episodes and we were constantly picking up things on the side of the road. We don't do that as much anymore. Have you noticed that, like in our, in our shows, like, we don't talk about, oh, guess what? I just. Guess what? I just curb alerted. Like, that's what we used to call

[Joel]

it, the curb alert. Dude, I saw a dime on the floor of the Kroger the other day and I didn't been down to pick it up and I did.

[Matt]

So talk about humble Brad. I felt bad about that Joel's over here literally stepping on money. But I was like, other people would

[Joel]

have picked up, that's so much sickness in the house. And I was like, I'm not. What if that's infested with bacteria?

[Matt]

What if that was patient zero?

[Joel]

Yes, it was.

[Matt]

That dime right there.

[Joel]

I don't want the antivirus.

[Matt]

Don't need to bring it back home.

[Joel]

No.

[Matt]

Yeah. I'm just highlighting that it essentially does need to be a very countercultural thing. It's not ever going to be really cool because that's not what sells.

[Joel]

Yeah.

[Matt]

You know, like, yeah, being cheap and frugal, that's not what people want to see pictures of or hear talked about. Unless you listen to the how to Money podcast.

[Joel]

I think in some ways too, we've kind of become more balanced in our views and how maybe like just we're

[Matt]

not going after it nearly as hard as we like.

[Joel]

The extreme approach is my frugal ways enticing have also coasted.

[Matt]

Right. Like in a similar way, like Coast Fire, we talk about that and how you slip. You let off the gas when it comes to how much you're socking away. Like, in a similar way, like, we have also done that when it comes to some of our more extreme frugal habits. And we like, was the last time you dumpster dove, Joel? It's been a minute. But you've done that before.

[Joel]

Sure. But it makes me think too, like, if you love your job and your way of life, yet you're like taking extreme measures to force more money into your investments at the expense of the here and now. It can feel like you're putting unnecessary pressure on yourself. And often it doesn't lead to the best long term results. Because guess what? It sounds like they have two good jobs with good workplace retirement accounts. And so if you like, if you heap the pressure on and you're like, we need a 40% savings rate or got to max out the Roths too. We're like not making Matt and Joel happy or something like that. That's not true. Don't worry about that. Not that you really care about that. You're really looking obviously for your own family's happiness. But this is a question, right? Like, how much flexibility you want down the road versus right now. That's a decision we all have to make. Those trade offs are hard. I would say this. You probably don't want to neglect investing in individual accounts altogether, but I think there's a happy medium here. You might want to prioritize the Roth, he mentioned he had a brokerage account, too, Matt, more highly than that brokerage account, depending on what you're saving up for. Because he said he might need the money in five to 10 years. That makes investing, not just saving, the smart move. But we don't love to see people leave Roth dollars on the table if it can be avoided. And since he can always pull out of his Roth contributions, contributions underlined there down the road. Right. Without tax or penalty, why not opt for Roth over your tax brokerage, knowing that contributions can be taken back out later at a later date. Yeah.

[Matt]

So let's just talk about over the course of a decade. Right. Because you mentioned, oh, some of these goals are like 10 years off. You would be able to put in a total of $75,000. And that's assuming that the current contribution limits hold, which I highly doubt.

[Joel]

I highly doubt.

[Matt]

I'm pretty sure we're going to see

[Joel]

those increases this past year.

[Matt]

Yeah. So. Well, let's assume that it holds there. You can pull out all $75,000 when you need to, using it for literally anything under the sun while leaving those earnings there in the Roth that continue to compound for many more years. Right. So you're essentially able to have your cake and eat it, too. But still, if you think you're going to need to pull your contributions and your earnings because we're talking about an even bigger expense. Well, if that's the case, then maybe a taxable brokerage could make it easier from a planning and a tax and even a psychological perspective as well. But assuming you're sort of within that, like, six figures or less sort of goal, and even then, man, the ability to find other ways to fund that like this is, you know, we're not even talking about your cash position on hand, too. So unless you're talking about something that's an extremely large financial goal of yours, I would absolutely be looking to the Roth first.

[Joel]

Yeah. And Jordan, like you mentioned, the great retirement accounts that both you and your wife have, I think the reason we want you to invest in accounts outside of just your employer account, even if we're not pushing you to, like, do the HSA and the taxable brokerage and the Roth, like, you don't need to do all of it, but just instead of a taxable brokerage account going with the Roth with additional dollars outside of those employer accounts is because even though Those retirement accounts are generous and they're likely to provide a robust retirement. Well, part of the reason we're suggesting the Roth as well, as much as you can do is because you're counting on working there for decades in order to get that promised payout. But what if that doesn't happen? Right. It sounds like you're not quite vested yet. You're in the earlier stages of this job, which is okay. But for diversification and for future planning purposes, I would want to be investing something in my own tax advantaged accounts as well. And by contributing to your Roth IRAs. Right. Even if you can't max them out, which is totally fine, you'll be doing that while also giving yourself flexibility for those medium term goals that you have. And so it is this both and approach, but it's just not like to the nth degree where you're putting so much pressure on yourself to max everything out and do everything simultaneously. You're saying, well, no, I'm going to participate in the Roth ira, but I'm going to make sure I'm doing it in a way that's sustainable and that's not completely cramping my ability to live the life I want right now to

[Matt]

finding that balance, finding that diversification. I want to. One final thing. I want to go back to the fact that he's planning like 10 years in advance for something that's so admirable. Like, it makes me think about so many, I don't know, like we're talking about being cheap and planning, you know, like our younger, frugal, frugal, more frugal days. And this is just a very quaint example, but it makes me think about the fact that. And you've done this in similar ways in your own life too, Joel. But like Kate and I, we did not have our own bathroom or even a closet in a home that we owned that was our considered our bed. Like, we didn't have a master closet or a master bath until I was 40 years old. It wasn't until a few years ago. Some of it has to do with the fact we were living in older homes. And so yes, maybe we're living in a nicer home, but it still didn't have what some folks modern amenities think is just like a slam dunk. Oh, you have to have that. And these are conversations that we had like in our first home and we thought, oh, maybe we'll save up and we'll add on and add a nice, oh man, just like a suite off the door here. And like, we even. We started working on plans, but instead we. So we didn't do that. Instead, we took that money and we bought our first investment property. And that one small change could have been. I mean, yes, we would have seen a return on our investment in that first property in our actual home, had we added the bathroom and added the closet. But we have seen a much, much, much larger return on investment on that separate home that we purchased as an investment property. And so literally 40 years old. So what I'm pointing here to. What I'm pointing at here is delayed gratification, looking far off into the future and being okay with what you got and just saying that, like, oh, society and culture. I love that you mentioned, like, the countercultural thing. Society and culture says that we should have this, and this is what's normal. What does it look like to be a little abnormal? What does it look like to be a little weird? Oh, I think it's going to mean that we're going to be in a much more solid financial position before long. And I love that he's doing that, too.

[Joel]

Me too. Me too. Yeah. And that kind of weird approach is just so beneficial in so many ways and just being comfortable. Like, even when we were. Had two kids in a duplex running out the back, and people were like, come over, and they're like, wait, who's back there? Yeah, who's making noise back there? You know? And they're like, oh, that's our. That's our tenant who lives in the other half of the duplex.

[Matt]

Which is awesome. Yeah, it's so good.

[Joel]

But some people would be like, you're in your 30s.

[Matt]

Grow up. You should have your own place. Oh, when are you gonna be done with your childish ways? You know, it's just like, no, no, no, you don't understand. This is. This is how you do it. That's right.

[Joel]

That's right. And then eventually you reap. Reap the benefits of living like that. All right, Matt, let's get to our next question. This one comes from Sandy, who is curious about Robo Advisors.

[Matt]

Hi, guys.

[Sandy (Listener)]

My question today is about Digital Robo Advisors. Let me explain. I recently transferred. Did it, or rather did a direct rollover of an old 401k plan from an old employer who no longer exists and did a direct rollover into a traditional IRA with Vanguard. The reason I did this is I also have a Roth IRA and brokerage account with Vanguard. While the process was relatively smooth, one thing I wasn't sure about is the digital advisor. I am Using the Digital Advisor for the Roth IRA and the brokerage account. And I went ahead and signed up for it for the traditional IRA. The money that came over from my 401k. Now with my 401k, it would just automatically rebalance every month. And that's where I. I got a little confused. Is auto rebalancing essentially the same thing as having a Digital Advisor? And number two, is there ever a case where if you have a certain, you know, sort of sizable amount of money, they do offer a. More like a direct advisor, you know, a real person who can manage your account if you have a certain amount in there, which I now do with the ira. And, you know, is there pros and cons? I. I feel like the Digital Advisor should be enough, but I'd be curious about your take on that. Thanks so much, guys. Bye.

[Matt]

All right. Cindy's asking about the Digital Ro. The Digi. Robo. Adviso. I was trying to think of a funny name.

[Joel]

That's what you want.

[Matt]

When I think about Digi, it makes me think of, like, what was the. The little electronic pet thing?

[Joel]

Tamagotchi.

[Matt]

No, before, like, even further back. It was a something pet. Digi. Gigi Pet.

[Joel]

Oh, really?

[Matt]

I don't read it. Doesn't ring any bells.

[Joel]

No, I just remember my sister having the Tamagotchi and where there's, like, little

[Matt]

digital pet that could.

[Joel]

Yeah.

[Matt]

They could potentially even die.

[Joel]

Young people would probably take care of it. What is that? It's funny. I just got my daughter a. So I wanted to get her a tracking device, or not like, a device where she could track her steps and her runs.

[Matt]

You wanted to stick, like, an airtag to her hairband so you know where she.

[Joel]

Yes. Okay, that's true, too. But, like, it didn't. I got one that doesn't have to connect to a smartphone because she doesn't have a smartphone yet.

[Matt]

But it only tracks it on the device. On the. On the wearable. Correct. Okay.

[Joel]

And it came. Wearables. It comes with, like, games on it, and it comes with, like, a little dog that you feed with. With many. You know, if you take more steps, you get to feed your animal more.

[Matt]

Yeah.

[Joel]

I was like, it's like Tamagotchi in your new.

[Matt]

But you're incentivizing it from a step standpoint.

[Joel]

Yes.

[Matt]

What about running standpoint? What about. What about your pace per mile?

[Joel]

That's. I don't. I don't know that it's that sophisticated.

[Matt]

Okay.

[Joel]

That'd be cool, though.

[Matt]

That is pretty Cool. Makes me think about, I remember I

[Joel]

can run a six minute mile. My dog can eat steak.

[Matt]

Yeah, it made me think about, gosh, the type. I remember the typing software that my dad, my parents had gotten me when I was a little kid and we had like an old school Macintosh. This is late 80s, early 90s, early 90s. And it was a Mario Brothers typing game. And I remember thinking, I love Mario. How does, how do I get to play Mario? And literally it was like a. You had to type and it was only when you got the letters correct that Mario would like run and jump

[Joel]

and do all like.

[Matt]

But you didn't have control over it. But even still it worked. It was initially I was just like, this is totally lame until you start getting better at typing and Mario's just like, he's like going crazy speedrunning the level. But yeah, the things we do, the way you incentivize and gamify the types of behavior that you want to see.

[Joel]

Don't know that would appeal to kids these days.

[Matt]

Maybe not.

[Joel]

But let's get tastes of become elevated.

[Matt]

Let's get to Sandy's specific question there. She's talking about the fact that she, first of all, she moved her old 401k over to Vanguard, which is awesome. Totally agree. Yeah, you've simplified, you're putting everything under one low cost roof. But typically when we're talking about the Robo advisors, we're talking about these newer companies, right. These newfangled brokerages. They sprung up fairly recently. Wealthfront and Betterment being two of the bigger ones. Are they the bargain basement, lowest fee options that are available to folks out there? No, but they have their selling points and I think they can make sense for some folks. But it doesn't surprise me at all to see that Vanguard's seeing some of, maybe some of the market share that they're losing out to some of these newer advisors.

[Joel]

Sure. And they're like, hey, maybe if we can offer a Digital Advisor service and which they've offered for years now, but if, hey, when we, let's offer this so our clients don't take all their funds and move over to Betterment or Wealthfront because they like these offerings. Like let's offer just a stripped down alternative that is, that's even cheaper than what they offered. And that's basically what they've done. They just don't want to lose their clients to Robo Advisors and they're like, we gotta offer something in this category. So the product's not as slick though, because it wasn't built from the ground up. And it's Vanguard. If you've walked into their website before, you're like, not the best thing about Vanguard. Right. The best thing is low cost, not interface. And so it offers similar perks. And the fee is a little bit less. I would say roughly 0.2% all in versus 0.3% all in. That might sound like a small gap, but it will add up over time, especially on larger balances. Although Betterment also reduces its fee as your balance grows. The real selling point, I would say, especially for folks who are getting close to the wealth preservation part of their investing journey, is kind of some of those rebalancing and planning tools. It can be a happy medium for a lot of folks. Matt. Which I think why the Robo Advisor sprung up to begin with. It's that it's become a happy medium where they're like, I love the idea of diy. I love the idea of cutting costs. I don't want to have an ongoing relationship with an expensive advisor. But is there something in the middle and that. That's kind of what these Digital Advisor, Robo Advisor services have become.

[Matt]

Totally, yeah. And Vanguard's Robo Advisor, I will say it starts with this individual assessment, which is nice. So it's not just a cookie cutter tool or software service that's available out there. It's helping you as an individual getting to where you want to go. They're not creating something for the average American. And so it does feel a bit more bespoke. Custom fitted. It'll also. So as far as different features, it'll perform tax loss harvesting, which can help save on taxes betterment. So they state that 70% of their customers fully cover their fees with the money saved from tax loss harvesting. And I'm assuming that's going to be similar. Which.

[Joel]

Can you reduce your taxes by thousands of dollars a year?

[Matt]

Yeah, yeah.

[Joel]

And it's something that when you DIY it, most people don't participate in.

[Matt]

Exactly. Can completely offset your capital gains too. And so I'm assuming that Vanguard's Digital Advisor is going to be similar. If not, maybe the percentage probably is going to be a little bit higher because it's even more affordable.

[Joel]

I was going to say lower just for. Because probably Vanguard customers have higher balances.

[Matt]

Oh, you think so? I guess it just depends. It depends on how much they've got set aside there in their brokerage.

[Joel]

Yeah.

[Matt]

Which again, by the way, that's Sandy's not. This is for everyone else out there. Sandy's Specifically asking about tax advantaged accounts. She's talking about the fact, you know, she rolled over her 401k, she's got her IRA here. I don't think she mentioned brokerage, taxable brokerage account at all. So this is a feature for folks out there who might be interested if you do have a, you know, decent amount of money invested within a brokerage, taxable brokerage account.

[Joel]

Yeah. And Sandy asks about auto rebalancing and digital advisors and what the interplay is. Well, auto rebalancing is essentially a perk that comes with the service, right. Otherwise, if you're, if you're going the DIY route, rebalancing is a DIY thing, right, where you opt to sell shares in a particular holding and use that money to buy shares of another holding. If you're saying, oh man, my stock portfolio, I'm getting a little too heavy in stocks and you, you sell some of your voo, right, and you up some of your BND exposure, just for example, or. Right. You opt for a target date fund, typically that automatically rebalances over time. That has been very popular obviously with, with millions of Americans because it's just a set it and forget it. I don't ever have to think about this again. And it might not be ideal for everyone, but it's kind of close enough and it gets the job done for a lot of people, which is why a lot of people have, have gone in that direction. And so the question is whether it's meaningfully better than going the diy, DIY route because, you know, the digital advisor comes with auto rebalancing. Well, I would say, especially when you're in the first decade of building up assets, usually the first couple of decades, it's just not going to make that big of a difference. The truth is you want to save on expenses because you want every dime working on your behalf that you can muster. But if the behavioral discipline that it can help you develop is meaningful and the asset allocation and rebalancing and then the tax benefits are substantial for you, then I think it's definitely worth considering. It's kind of like assessing whether Amazon prime is worth it or not. Matt. It's like, like it is for some people, it's not for others. If you buy something from Amazon once a month, you don't really watch the video offerings, you don't take advantage of some of the other perks like the free prime music or whatever, then you're probably paying for Amazon prime unnecessarily. And then There are other people who are like heavy users and they use every perk that comes along with a prime account and they get a lot of value from it. Costco membership too.

[Matt]

Right.

[Joel]

When you're assessing stuff like that, I would, I would run your finances through that kind of filter. What kind of value am I going to get from this? And there's peace of mind to consider too.

[Matt]

Totally. Yeah. When it comes to rebalancing, that's not a very. Like you said, when you are in the wealth building phase of your life, it's pretty straightforward. Not something I would be overly concerned about. That being said, in addition to that, you talked about hiring a human advisor with Vanguard, like an actual reality person, which is also cheaper than going out on your own and hiring an advisor. The fee for that is 0.3% of assets under management, which isn't bad compared to the industry standard. But you're also not comparing apples to apples here because this is more of a hybrid model. So like I love Vanguard and I'm sure some of the people who are there and have at Vanguard Investing or whatever their subdomain is or whatever. Sure, those hooks are great. Their service I'm guessing isn't going to be as robust though. Like I just can't imagine anyway that what they're able to provide is going to feel like, I don't know, I don't want to knock Vanguard because I love Vanguard so much. But that being said, I would just, I think I would rather you consider hiring your own advisor. Even if you're just thinking about like finding someone that you can talk to only when you need it. Right. Like if you're only hiring them on a, like when I want someone to discuss my finances with basis, I think that could be a better approach. And that's something you can try out. Right? It's something you can, you can talk to somebody that you find on your own. Actually go to howtomoney.com advisor because we've got a bunch of fiduciary, wonderfully vetted

[Joel]

advisors there, many of which who will engage with you on a one time basis.

[Matt]

If you've got questions on a flat fee pricing model. Yeah. And so you know, if maybe in a few years you're like, oh, let me try that out or maybe I'll try that out now, see what that's like. And then let's say five years from now you're like, okay, let's see what it is that Vanguard has to offer. I mean, I think there's no harm in being able to sort of shop around and getting a feel for what that advising space is like.

[Joel]

Yeah, but.

[Matt]

But yeah, check that out. Howtomoney.com advisor Agreed.

[Joel]

And paying like instead of a even though it is a lower assets under management fee, paying for the advice you need when you need it from an advisor who is well acquainted with your situation, it might save you more and be a better value. All right, Matt, we got more to get to including how do you help your adult child who's kind of struggling with their finances. We'll discuss that right after this.

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[Umar Valderrama]

This live check in is brought to you by State Farm. Por quel bienestado Familia tambien merci. Protection. Okay, real talk. I'm about to become a dad again. And wow, it hits different the second time. Hi, I'm Umar Valderrama and I've done, you know, I've done the red carpets, the long days on set, and all that, but nothing prepares you for that moment when you're building a crib and you realize you're building a future. Familia is everything to me. The laughs, the chaos, the unconditional love, but also the pressure. La responsabilidad. If you're stepping into something big right now, starting a family, getting engaged, moving cities, you're not alone. Take one step at a time. Why breathe? Be present and lean into the people. They've got your back. It is fruta like a good neighbor. State Farm is there.

[Matt]

All right, buddy. We are back from the break and we are now going to take an anonymous email from a listener who wrote to us and she said, my oldest son, who is 40 years old, has ruined his Credit. He now has a good job, but it's seasonal. He has basically lived spending each paycheck till he goes back to work. I've recently helped him set up a Roth IRA in a savings account which I had so much trouble doing. It is primarily in my name. He is now thinking of buying a house but does not know how to deal with the credit. I know he has some unpaid medical debts or medical bills from about 10 years ago. From listening to the podcast, I think he needs a credit card, but I don't think he can get one. He has his paychecks put in cash app. I am trying to help him, but I have always been responsible with money so I don't know where to start. I would appreciate any suggestions. I'm trying to get him to listen to the podcast. Thanks. What you think, Joel?

[Joel]

There's a lot going on here and a lot to address. And I just want to first say that I'm sorry. It feels like you're still taking care of your son's finances at this point in your life. And it's great that you're there for him. Right. That you care for him enough to be involved, but it's also hard to know where to draw the line and should. He's 40 years old. Right. And so the. I think at this point should be

[Matt]

a grown freaking man doing his own thing at 40 years old.

[Joel]

And you can. This phrase is apt here, Matt, that you can lead a horse to water, but you can't make them drink. Oh yeah. And that is at this point, I don't know how many years the that this listener has been attempting to help her son. But I just, I think that you need to realize that maybe your additional efforts or worrying are not. Are not helping. And so I'm reticent.

[Matt]

Yeah. I would also like to know what those efforts look like because. And she didn't say this specifically and I think I realized she asked her to remain anonymous and I don't actually, I don't think she even revealed whether it was a mother or a father. So we'll just say mis. Anonymous. But I wish. But she didn't say how it has, like how she has been helping her son and if she has been financially helping him. I mean, I'm gonna put it bluntly. I think she's been. She's enabled him. Right. Like. Like this is a hard conversation to have even with someone that's 20 years old. Like, imagine somebody and you know, you got your son, he's been kind of loafing around for the past couple years outside of high school, that seems like a more appropriate time to have that conversation. I don't know what has been going on for the past 20 years. Like this is a 40 year old man who's acting like you said, I don't know if this was a Freudian slip, like you're pushing to the brake. And you called him an adult child because that's how he's acting. Like we have a four. And I will state as well, there is no indication that he struggles with disabilities or has or doesn't have the ability to go out there and create his own life essentially. Right. Like she's basically like he's just, he's not doing it.

[Joel]

Yeah, she didn't say he's not capable.

[Matt]

Exactly. And so that's, that's the part where I'm just like, man, aside from all the help that you've been giving him, I think she, I think there, there needs to be like a pushing out of the nest sort of moment here where you have to explain to him that like, oh, I see so much more for you and this is why I'm doing that. Whatever that might end up looking like.

[Joel]

I've heard way too many adult children who are still kind of tethered to their parents financially and that's what it

[Matt]

sounds like is going on here.

[Joel]

And because when you just continue to allow that to be the case and continue to let them kind of siphon money from you every month like that, that's going to continue in perpetuity because why wouldn't it if you were. Continue to allow.

[Matt]

It's nice at home.

[Joel]

Yeah, right.

[Matt]

Like in the fact that she says that he's got a good job now or he now has a good job is what she said. But it's seasonal. So that tells me that he hasn't been generating income which means he didn't have his own place which yeah, I think he's been at home living rent free, probably not paying for groceries and he's thinking, man, this is pretty great. And he hasn't been a fire hasn't been lit under him to encourage him to see how life again. I'm sure it's great at home and hopefully you've got a pretty life giving relationship there with your son. But like I want him to look beyond just what he's been doing there at home, you know, with just a seasonal job and I mean the fact that he doesn't have a savings account, you know, he's taking it straight to cash app like these this is. This is not good stuff, man.

[Joel]

This is poor financial. Poor financial hygiene.

[America 250 Announcer]

Yes.

[Joel]

Which means he needs to. It's funny, like, I was talking with someone recently, Matt, in my family, who is incredibly grown up, like, much older than I am. And even just some of the basic questions, it just showed, like, repeating the same basic questions. I was just like, I'm more than happy to help and to offer advice. It would be also be awesome if you would go out there and learn a little bit and then ask a question that's a little more pointed about your personal situation. And it just showed a lack of interest. And I hope that someone else would do it for them.

[Matt]

Oh, I think that's what's going on here.

[Joel]

And so I'm more. I'm less happy to hop on the phone to offer tons of advice because I'm like, you need to go do a little bit of work beforehand, and then I'll help you when you have other questions. But if you're just asking, like, well, how come my Roth IRA is only growing at 3%? Well, because you didn't invest it like we talked about, like, already. And that's a basic thing that you should have really looked into at this point. Yeah. When you're in your 60s.

[Matt]

Yeah. I think what's going on here, too is like, like, she, like, she's specifically asking about, like, oh, his credit scores in the dumps and maybe he gets a credit card and, oh, he's thinking about a house. Like, these are all sort of like, in the weeds questions that she's asking. And I think the bigger issue at play here is that you need to set some clear boundaries with your son. And, like, literally there's a book, Boundaries, Dr. Henry Cloud, something that I read 15, 20 years ago that was an excellent book to read.

[Joel]

This is when Matt stopped answering my calls at midnight.

[Matt]

It's a good book to read. Don't wait until the car breaks down to perform some annual maintenance. Right. So even if you're listening out there and you're like, oh, great book recommendation, dude, I'm not in that sort of situation. It's just a great relationship and communication book. But for this anonymous emailer, I think the reason I mention that is because I think that this all, at least so far, all this is going to sound very kind of cruel and mean and not very loving, but when you read something like that, I think it can allow you to see some of the patterns and some of the behaviors that you've both been engaging in, and it can allow you To, I don't know, maybe even can give you the permission to sit down and have a hard conversation and to say, look, I'm not doing this because I want the money. Like, I'm, you know, it's not that I don't want to pay for your groceries or pay for your rent because I'm strapped from a financial situation. This is for you. And I think if you can connect in a way that allows him to see that this isn't. That basically that you do have his best interests in mind as opposed to this feeling like all negative talk. Essentially, this isn't negative talk. This is to allow him to potentially go out there and do something amazing.

[Joel]

Like there are like, to realize Sam

[Matt]

Altman, Isn't he like 40 years old, the fake Ramaswamy? I think he's exactly 40 years old. Like, these are all individual. And I'm not saying that he's going to go out there and start some

[Joel]

AI company, but we're not even saying that he should aspire to be either of those individuals.

[Matt]

No, no, not at all. But I'm just saying, like, there is.

[Joel]

I don't know, maybe you are, but I'm not.

[Matt]

I'm not either. Like, the untapped potential and what it is that he could create for himself and the desire to get out there and decide what he wants his life to look like and get out there and kill it. You know, get a job, like, find a place that he wants to purchase, get excited about something. Like, there's just no fire lit under him. And I'm hoping that that's something that you can provide by hopefully something as simple as saying, hey, man, a year from now this is gonna look different.

[Joel]

The gravy train's done.

[Matt]

The what?

[Joel]

The gravy train is done. I'm not providing the same level of support. And here's what it's gonna like and map that out. I think what you're getting at too is that his participation is crucial in the ultimate success. And to his mom not burning out, like, to the question asker, not getting super frustrated, to not embittering the relationship because she feels like she's bending over backwards and he's not holding up his end of the bargain. She even mentioned, yeah, there's a little

[Matt]

bit of exasperation in her email.

[Joel]

Understandably so. And at some point it's going to sour the relationship if you don't create those boundaries that you're talking about.

[Matt]

Matt, not to mention overall health of this individual, of your son is just like at all time lows. Right. So it's like short term pain for ultimate long term health, not only of your relationship, but also of your son on his own.

[Joel]

And it's evident, Stephen, in how she talked about the Roth. Like she said it's his, but it's in her name. I mean, and that's not really possible. Right. It's either in your name or it's in his name. And if it was set up in his name, he can do with it what he likes. And I gotta imagine he might be prone to do, to not be wise with it. And so even if, let's say you helped to fund that account with your own money, like, if it's in his name, don't do that. That's his money. Right. And so I'm just saying, like, these are the kind of things where you're, you're trotting shady territory and you, you might be putting money into something that now is not in your orbit. You, you can't even help him with it. It's at his disposal and he can use it poorly. So, yeah, it's, I don't know. Although you do want him investing for his future and you probably do want him to have healthy credit card use habits and open a bank account.

[Matt]

But all that's easy. Yeah, those are the highest priority right now. No, exactly. That's the thing. Like, if you want to be able to live out on your own and buy your own place and to buy a new 4Runner and go on vacations with your friends and like meet a new girl, like, all of these things, these can all be motivators that cause him to hop on, chat and to type in, create an outline for me as to how it is I should handle my money, given the fact that my credit score is 400, that I, I've got a part, you know, like, the answers are out there. What's not out there is the motivation for him to essentially achieve those things. You know? You know what I'm saying?

[Joel]

Yeah.

[Matt]

Like on the show, we talk about all the nuances and the ins and outs of personal finance, but we also joke how you can literally write down all the things you need to do from a personal finance standpoint on an index card. I mean, literally, the money gears, it's just seven steps. It's not all that complicated. We like to add color and we enjoy talking about it, which is why we have a podcast. But it's not that complicated. It's not that hard.

[Joel]

Makes me think about a podcast episode. We did a long Time ago. Matt, about the number one recipe, do you remember what it was in becoming good with your personal finances? Number one characteristic, it was

[Matt]

spending less than a year in.

[Joel]

It was grit. It was stick to itiveness.

[Matt]

As far as personality traits. Yeah.

[Joel]

And so this is like what this adult lacks right now is that grit and that stick to itness. And that's what.

[Matt]

He's not sticking to anything. He doesn't have grit that sticks to some sort of substrate.

[Joel]

Yeah. Yeah.

[Matt]

It's like there's not even a substrate there. Like she's trying to push a noodle. You know, it's just not working out. But, yeah, it's tough.

[Joel]

Yep.

[Matt]

And I hate it for this emailer and hopefully write, write us back or, you know, continue to send questions or if you want to ask us some specific questions as to maybe how it is you can approach this conversation. I would love, I'd be more than happy for us to continue to talk about that. There's. There's a limited amount of information that she sent our way. And I really pray that we're not making a bunch of terrible assumptions here as far as his inability to hold a job, but based on the way she wrote it, Right. Like, he now has a solid seasonal job, so that just doesn't bode well for his personal finance.

[Joel]

And bad things happen and parents love their kids and it's really hard to disentangle those things sometimes. Like, I can't imagine when my kids are grown and they've left the nest, if they get laid off or they have relational troubles or something like that. So freaking hard. Like, how am I going to want to enter into that? Right. And it's really hard not to be like, mama burden it. Like they're still under your roof. And so.

[Matt]

But like, there might be a time for that. Right? Like, there's a season where maybe it's

[Joel]

like, okay, but it can't be in perpetuity. There's some fear.

[Matt]

Yeah. Maybe there's some healing that needs to take place. But like, at the same time, you need to be able to help them in a way that allows them to get back on their own two feet. And man, she's like, she's walking for him, you know, like, he's not on his two feet. Like, she's. She said it was so hard to get him to open the savings account or in the Roth. And I'm like, man, I did that with my 12 year old earlier this year.

[Joel]

Yeah.

[Matt]

And it wasn't hard. And I literally made her type it Herself. It was very easy. It was actually quite easy. And a joy and man, I want that for her so bad. And I think that there's a possibility of her getting there, but it's not going to be easy.

[Joel]

So you have to change the relational dynamics to get there. Yeah. Yep, yep.

[Matt]

Not our usual sort of personal finance question or emailer on the show. It's also so fascinating and interesting though, isn't it? Like, I don't know, this is why, like, when we talk about questions that are more lifestyle related, this is what we mean. It's just stuff that kind of like dives into the weeds and the messiness of life as opposed to a sterile. How much can I contribute to my Roth IRA this year? Well, that's really easy.

[Joel]

So the rubber meets the road in terms of relationship and money dynamics. So best of luck to this listener though, because again, I know that's a really hard position to be in and at some point you're going to have to make a hard decision here, I think, in terms of what that relationship looks like.

[Matt]

And please keep us posted. Hit us up and we'd love to stay abreast.

[Joel]

All right, let's mention the beer mat again that we're having on this episode. This is a. A whale fall. It's a salted Yuzu lager, which is a collab.

[Matt]

Right. This is a collaboration or it's. Or is it dedicated?

[Joel]

I think it's. It's to raise money for Shell to Shore and Oyster south, which don't know what that is. Don't know what those are either.

[Matt]

But it's supposed to be a beer that's a good pairing with seafood.

[Joel]

So this is by Creature Comfort, to be honest. It would be great with seafood.

[Matt]

Yes. Well, the fact is like, like it's a salty beer. Gosh, what beer was it?

[Joel]

Briny.

[Matt]

So it was a. It was a Creature Comforts and somebody else. Who was it? Edmund's OST collab, like several weeks ago. And it was what they call it, they called it a Southeastern ipa.

[Joel]

Oh, yeah.

[Matt]

And I was like, oh, maybe there's some salt in it, you know? Cause it's like hydration. No, no, no. This beer has salt in it. Yeah, this like it. That's the first thing I noticed was the salt and the floral because you got the saltiness and then you've got the orangey, lemony, sort of tangeriney flavors from the Yuzu, for sure. But the saltiness made it almost drink like a Gatorade or in beer terms, also like a Goza.

[Joel]

Yeah.

[Matt]

But yeah, the salty notes were definitely there. But then it's got this floral. The yuzu is really good too.

[Joel]

It was light, bright, lemony, briny. Like it was a lot of fun things.

[Matt]

Very satisfying.

[Joel]

But yuzu is. I like it because it's got something else going on than just. Than lemon. Right. Like lemon is funky.

[Matt]

It's not.

[Joel]

Yeah.

[Matt]

It's like a tangeriney lemon.

[Joel]

It's more multi note.

[Matt]

Oh, 100%.

[Joel]

Which is what? Like depth. Yeah. Which makes this like unique and taste interesting. So I, I really liked it.

[Matt]

Total. Yeah. I'm gonna. Is this like a seasonal release or like a limited release?

[Joel]

I don't know. I got like one can of it

[Matt]

randomly at a beer store. I'm gonna look for more of this because this is like the perfect kind of beer to enjoy during the summer.

[Joel]

Yeah.

[Matt]

Just want it to be like light and fresh. Good beach beer when it's hot outside. But. Yep. Okay. You can find our show notes up on the [e-mail] we'll link to any resources that we may have mentioned. And buddy, that's going to be it for this episode. So until next time, Best friends out. Best friends out.

[America 250 Announcer]

This July 4th, come celebrate at America's Block Party. Hosted by America 250, America's Block Party is a can't miss 4th of July concert happening at the Los Angeles Memorial Coliseum. Experience music, performances from major artists, patriotic tributes and the kickoff to giving 4th, helping to make July 4th the largest day of giving in American history. It's more than just fireworks. Learn more about this landmark [e-mail]

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When Kohler, Global design leader in luxurious kitchen and bath products, asked me to be their ambassador for timeless, elegant, durable cast iron, I said, I'm in. Soon after, I was in their Kohler Wisconsin foundry watching molten iron poured enamel applied by hand and the beautiful finished pieces ready to ship. Since 1883, Kohler cast iron has been crafted by incredible artisans. And seeing it firsthand gave me a whole new appreciation for their craftsmanship. Now I am proud to lend my stamp of approval to my favorite Kohler Cast Iron products for their durability, beauty and enduring style. Shop my curated [e-mail] as the Kohler cast Iron Ambassador, I say long live Cast Iron.

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[Matt]

Guaranteed human.