A (2:28)

I thought you made a mistake. So I was just catching. Catching it early on.

B (2:31)

Oh, man.

A (2:31)

You just shake things up. Switch things up. All right, this is an Ask how to Money episode. Uh, listener is considering hopping healthcare plans in order to save. It's open enrollment season, after all. Joel. Another listener is wondering.

B (2:44)

Open season on our wallets. On the healthcare front, too.

A (2:47)

That's what it feels like. Uh, another listener, he's wondering if you and I, if we could ever love buy now, pay later, so we'll share our thoughts there. Another listener is considering pausing her investing for some debt payoff goals. We'll get to those plus more during our episode today, buddy.

B (3:03)

Okay, so I don't know where this quote comes from, but I think it's a. It's either a quote from an old economist, but then Forrest Gump. I don't think it was the chocolates quote. No, I'm not thinking about that one. No, I just. So I was listening to that. There aren't many politicians I appreciate these days, but I was listening to one politician that I actually like in a sea of awful ones. And I'm not even going to mention his name. I'm just not. I'm just not. Because I don't want to. I'm just waiting for you. I'm just. I don't want to get that feedback.

A (3:31)

You're like, have you heard of this guy named Donald? I forget his last name.

B (3:34)

Yeah, right, right. So there's like literally two politicians, I think make any sense right now. But he was talking on a very obscure podcast, so good luck going to find this. But he was talking about the high prices of beef in this country, which we've all been confronted with. If you tried to buy a steak recently, you wanted to punch yourself in the face. It was that expensive. And you probably opted for chicken instead. Unless you're just a baller like Matt. Was he talking.

A (4:00)

Please. Was he talking about Brazil?

B (4:01)

Evidently the Argentina.

A (4:03)

Oh, is it Argent?

B (4:04)

Well, he's talking about. Yes.

A (4:05)

Is he talking about our beef imports?

B (4:06)

The desire to import beef right now? And he talked about how that's actually going to prolong the problem. And one of the things that he said was. And I thought this was so true. It's one of those kind of destruction, creative destruction elements of that happened in a free market society. He said high prices are the cure for high prices. Oh, yeah.

A (4:28)

And that's just a really classic, like, economist talk. Yes, again, slogan.

B (4:34)

How often do you hear smart stuff like that come out of the mouths of a politician? But it's really true in so many ways that when prices get too high, I think people, especially politicians, are often tempted towards a non free market solution or a way to stem the pain of their constituents in a quick manner. And what this guy was saying was actually what, what happens when prices get high is people either a make different choices, they demand less of that item. So in the case of beef, like people start opting for chicken or veggies, whatever it is instead.

A (5:08)

Chicken's super affordable these days.

B (5:09)

That's right.

A (5:10)

Or especially with a 5, $6 off per package, a Costco baby.

B (5:15)

When that happens, that's when you stock.

A (5:16)

Up and throw a pack in the freezer.

B (5:17)

I'm in heaven. Yeah. And then the other thing that happens is it attracts more suppliers. So farmers, the suppliers see that the.

A (5:26)

Prices are high, they say I want a piece of that action.

B (5:28)

That's right.

A (5:28)

They get providing more supply which then does what lowers the overall prices.

B (5:34)

The problem with beef is, is that it just takes a lot longer to go from raising cattle. Oh yeah. To that being a steak in the supermarket.

A (5:41)

How long does it take?

B (5:42)

I, I think it's like multiple years. Right. Whereas like with chickens or pigs, like it's a much quicker turnaround, like months. Right. I mean chickens, it's literally like, isn't it like three weeks or something? Six, eight weeks, something like that.

A (5:52)

Three months before they're. Yeah, you go from hatching to like.

B (5:55)

These chickens are ready to go. So the pain is felt a lot longer. Which makes people want to get involved in the system to lower when ultimately, as that politician said, as economists before him have said, high prices are the cure for high prices.

A (6:07)

Let it go. So he was he advocating for more of a free market?

B (6:10)

Sort of. He was.

A (6:11)

Yeah, dude, I'm all about that. Because what's true is also the opposite of that too.

B (6:15)

Right.

A (6:15)

So low prices are also the cure for low prices.

B (6:18)

Yeah. Right.

A (6:19)

So it's a self, it's like an auto correcting mechanism. This also makes me think through. It's like, okay, beef is, it's got a really long Runway, like years. But it makes me think about other industries a, that have really short lifespans or short cycles that allow for there to be a whole lot of adjustments where you see prices and in a much more dynamic way and then different industries where it's really stretched out. And one that comes to mind as far as it being really stretched out is higher ed because like as opposed to eating a steak, which is something you do in one sitting, when it comes to higher ed, it literally takes most people at least 4 years to consume that product, and then years, if not decades beyond that to decide, was that purchase worth my money? Right. Because a lot of it depends on job satisfaction, career, how much money they're able to make. But it makes. Yeah, it makes me think that, like he's. I guess he was talking about how painful it is during. During those sort of down periods where you're trying to figure out the best decision. And I think that's where folks could be potentially when it comes to higher ed, because they're saying, well, was that worth it? Ah, I don't know.

B (7:24)

It's tough to tell.

A (7:25)

It's not something you're going to know maybe even for a decade out. Because I think about, like, when I was right out of school, I remember thinking, man, what a waste of time. And so even your perception, your perception of it changes. But is the solution, what you're saying then is a solution for the government to get involved and to distort prices? I would say no. And that's not the solution.

B (7:44)

Let's just be honest that a lot of price distortment that currently happens, like let's say we're talking about prescription drugs or healthcare. There already is a lot of involved, like, it's not really a free market system. And so.

A (7:55)

Which is awful why it's so broken.

B (7:56)

We have a ton of distortment. And so a lot of people are like, I prefer distortion, guys. Look how the free market's working on that. And it's like, yeah, it's not. Because it's not a free market, really. And that is a problem too. So. All right, sorry. Random wonky economist thought.

A (8:10)

No, no, I think it's fun.

C (8:11)

All right.

B (8:11)

Should we mention the beer we're having?

A (8:12)

You and I are enjoying an athletic brewing company beer that happens to be called Upside dawn, which is a golden. And I wanted to have this one on specifically because I told you about our friend Jimmy who gave me a beer, and I think maybe he was thinking we would have it on the show, but then I just drank it.

B (8:30)

Right. And then. Anyway, he cried himself to sleep that night. I don't.

A (8:33)

I haven't talked to him about it, but I should soon.

B (8:36)

Well, that's because he's not talking to you anymore.

A (8:38)

Last time I was out, I saw. I saw some athletic. And I thought, oh, I should get that mention. Jimmy the. So the one he gave me was an Oktoberfest.

B (8:45)

Okay.

A (8:46)

Which evidently you can't get where we are. You have to order it. And even still, they don't you have to order it to a different state? Maybe. I don't know if I'd recommend that.

B (8:54)

I swear somebody from reached out to us at one point. Maybe we should holler at them and see if they can send us some October. I bet they would.

A (9:00)

I like the way your like where.

B (9:01)

Your head's at, good folks. Freeway Free beer is the best kind of beer too, by the way. Yeah.

A (9:05)

So this is an na. We'll share our thoughts. Have we had an NA on the show before?

B (9:09)

I want to say we've had one or two. Really? Yeah. It might have been an athletic back in the day.

A (9:12)

Oh, no way.

B (9:12)

Yeah.

A (9:13)

I swear.

B (9:13)

We like that he reached out and brought us some beers and we tried them, but yeah, but let's get on to money questions. Matt, if you're listening right now and you're like, I have a money question, the tip of my brain and I would love for Matt and Joel to tackle it in maybe next week on the show even. Well, you can go to howtomoney.com ask or literally just record a voice memo on that voice recorder app on your phone, email it over to us@howtomoneypodmail.com we look forward to to hearing from you, Matt. Let's get to speaking of not real free markets, let's get to a question now specifically about open enrollment.

C (9:51)

Hey, Matt and Joel, I've got a question about health insurance. It's open enrollment season at my employer and they're offering us a couple different options for health insurance this year. We're with a major provider right now, and it looks like they're about $1,200 more expensive than one of the other major providers that's being offered. I'm interested in taking those savings, but I'm also weighing the cost of confirming that all of our doctors accept the other insurer, making sure that all of our prescriptions are covered for my whole family of five. So any advice about how to weigh the costs and benefits of switching from one insurer to another?

A (10:29)

All right, Joel. And that was Brian from Chicago, by the way. And open enrollment, man, this can be a trying time for a lot of folks who they've got all these options laid out before them. So we'll offer a few thoughts that will hopefully make this process a little less difficult. And yeah, I don't think Brian is the only person to find himself in this situation as well because healthcare costs have risen significantly and they're obviously trying to find different ways to save the so here's some numbers. The average Annual cost now is $27,000 for the average family in the US and the average employer covers most of that $20,000. But that still leaves a ton of money for you to cover as the employee, a little over $6,000. And that's just the premiums like that doesn't include the other costs. And so even with great workplace coverage here, we're talking that man like you could easily spend over 10,000, maybe closer to 15 on health care costs in a given year between just like the premiums and then just some of the other costs that go into it.

B (11:35)

Paying those premiums gets you the coverage, right, in case of catastrophic. Something catastrophic happens to you. But, you know, also gives you the ability to pay less to go see the doctor when we're talking about co pays and stuff like that. But just to think that that's how much it requires just to have health coverage in this country, even when your employer is footing a substantial amount of the bill, it's. It's harrowing. It's kind of hard to fathom. And I know there are some employers who do even better on the health care coverage front. They pay even more or all of your premiums. I think if you are an individual working for one of those employers, just don't neglect to realize how great of a benefit that is because it really is substantial. You see, you might have friends working down the street for another firm that's less generous and they are paying a lot more of the. They've got more skin in the game essentially, when it comes to premiums than you do. If you're in that case, be thankful. I'd say, Matt, I think when it comes to this question, we want to compare the total annual cost, right? It's hard to do because we're using predicted costs. There's no way to 100% predict exactly what you're going to spend in health care in a given year. So much of health care is like, ow, I broke my ankle, I need to go see the doctor right now. You don't usually know exactly what you're going to spend in the coming year, understandably so. But you can come up with a solid estimate, I think, based on what you spent last year and whether or not there are any procedures you already have planned that are in the works. And some folks, they even batch bigger health needs into a specific year while they're on, let's say, a lower deductible plan, and then they move to a higher deductible plan in years where they're less Likely to need care, which is a, I think a solid planning option. If you're saying, listen, I know I've got this major surgery and my spouse has this other thing going on, my kid needs to get their tonsils removed. Let's go for the lower deductible plan in 2026 and then 2027. Hopefully most of our major surgeries are over with.

A (13:28)

Boom.

B (13:29)

Like we're going to go back to the high deductible plan, try to save more money. But the total cost we're talking about here is premiums. It's your potential deductible. It's co pays. And it's also really important to know what your out of pocket max is as well. I think those are really kind of the crucial moving parts we've got to factor in.

A (13:43)

Yeah, the overall cost. Because if you just go simply seeking lower premiums, well, that's often going to mean higher deductibles. So also take into account how much cash, how much money you have in savings, whether or not you can go with a plan like that, if you have some more healthcare expenses next year. Joel, you mentioned copay costs as well. Those really can add up. So make sure you are aware of that. If you do go and see the doctor regularly and it's. Yeah. And Brian, he mentioned specifically looking into the doctors that he has, making sure that they accept the new health insurance as well. It may not be worth it for you. You're a family of five, Right. If you have to go and find a new pediatrician, if you have to find a new doctor for you, if your wife, your partner, if they need to go find a new doctor, as it might be a massive headache. But that being said, I don't know, maybe extreme time situations call for extreme measures here.

B (14:36)

The ability to save an extreme amount of money.

A (14:38)

Yeah, yeah. And so I don't want the default to be like, well, yeah, obviously make sure. Because that's just presupposing that he's not going to make a big change like that. And I actually want to introduce the idea that, hey, maybe it's worth doing something completely different in order to save some money here.

B (14:53)

Yeah, maybe. But you might if with three kids you're attached to the physician. I mean, I remember Matt when we moved the heart. One of the hardest parts about leaving where we lived was how much we loved the pediatrician where we, where we were and we just not to throw shade. But we haven't found a great pediatrician where we are now. It's just. Okay. And we miss the old. And we're like, we even think about, do we go back and just drive 45 minutes to go see a pediatrician? Maybe you could. And so if you feel that attached and you're like, huh, well, my pediatrician, who we love, you know, doesn't take the, this new healthcare coverage. Doesn't, doesn't take this plan. Well, I get how that's going to help sway your decision and you might be like not worth the savings if we can't see that person again. And yeah, it's, you got to factor in prescriptions too, because if there are any regular prescriptions that you'd want to, you know, that you take, you'd want to see how much those are going to cost underneath this new plan as well. Although depending on what you take, especially if it's an older generic, you might actually save a lot of money by not going through insurance. And using a site that we've mentioned before, like cost plus drugs. GoodRx is another good place. So don't necessarily think you have to go through insurance to save money on prescriptions. You might save more not going through insurance. We'd also love to see you on an HSA eligible high deductible healthcare plan if it makes sense for your overall healthcare costs. Don't let the tail wag the dog here. But if a high deductible healthcare plan is ideal from that total cost perspective that we're discussing, it'll mean you can utilize an HSA too, which can just be another way to save money on healthcare because it reduces your taxes for the current year and it allows you to grow those dollars for your future too. Your employer, they might be generous enough to even offer an HSA match. We have heard from many listeners who have that as a benefit where they, where they work that sweetens the pot. We're seeing more of this and we love it. But just take that into consideration as well because there are additional perks with the high deductible health care plan. You save on premiums, you have access to the HSA. Still, that doesn't mean it's always the best choice for everyone.

A (16:57)

Yeah, yeah. And Brian, he's talking about saving 1200 bucks here, but kind of piggybacking off of the taking more extreme measures. I've got to bring up health sharing plans because if you are interested in saving what I would say is the most extreme amount of money.

B (17:12)

Joel.

A (17:13)

So I logged into our states healthcare exchange, so healthcare.gov or if you live in a state where healthcare.gov no longer works because the state exchanges took over. Check that out. But I logged in there and guess what our family of six monthly cost was going to be.

B (17:29)

I'm going to guess for a bronze plan for the. Yeah, the cheapest. Okay. I'm going to guess like 23,000.

A (17:35)

I'm sorry monthly. So I mean 81900 $2500.

B (17:39)

Wow.

A (17:40)

A month.

B (17:40)

Okay.

A (17:41)

A month versus $374 a month which is what we're paying here. This is the difference between paying over $30,000 over the course of a year.

B (17:49)

Insane.

A (17:50)

And versus $6,000.

B (17:52)

You're not talking about a gold plane.

A (17:54)

No, this was like prices you might be able to get a plane starting at. And it said that I could not believe it. And by the way, when I said $6,000 that's not only the quote unquote premium that I'm paying towards the health sharing but also that also includes our out of pocket costs. So we spent a little over $6,000 total last year.

B (18:13)

Yeah.

A (18:13)

And you're probably thinking oh yeah Matt, I know how you are with like not ever going to see the doctor. Last year was actually we had several doctor's visits which is.

B (18:23)

Yeah, you had to get that rash looked at a few times.

A (18:25)

Kind of out of the ordinary for us. So I'm just highlighting that if you are looking to save the absolute most amount of money you've got to look into health sharing and not all of them are religious or faith based either sidera. So you and I both, both of our families are with Medishare. But Cedara is a great option as well where there's a whole lot of folks who are served well via that organization.

B (18:46)

The problem is it's really hard when you're offered a Cadillac health insurance plan through your work.

A (18:51)

I get it.

B (18:52)

The premiums are highly subsidized. It's tough to think about saying none of the above and going and getting your own health sharing plan. I think they typically make the most sense for self employed people. Right. Who don't have access to any sort of health plan coverage to work or if you're, if maybe you're employed by an employer who says yeah, we don't.

A (19:09)

You'Re kind of on your own.

B (19:11)

Yeah. But like we don't really subsidize the premiums very much and you're feeling more of that healthcare.gov sort of slap in the face where you're faced with paying the bulk of the premiums yourself.

A (19:20)

Exactly. But even assuming the average American where It's okay. Say 27,000 employers covering 20. You're covering six. I paid six total last year. Not just in the cost of health care, but also in out of pockets, what I call in my Excel sheet, medical out of pocket costs.

B (19:38)

Yeah.

A (19:39)

And so you're still looking at saving a few thousand dollars right there, assuming, you know, a healthier year. But that's something else you got to keep in mind, too, because if you do use the doctor a whole lot, if you got a whole lot of procedures lined up, if you've got different, you know, regular visits that you need to go in and get things checked in on, that's probably not going to work out for you quite as well.

B (19:57)

Yeah. So I think what we're ultimately saying here to Brian is to, yeah, look at that overall out of pocket costs and say, is it worth jumping through these hoops and am I going to have to give up too much in order to save the 1,200 bucks? Or is? Man, I'm still getting everything that I really value. Maybe a couple things are gone, but I don't really care about those things or use those things anyway. It's partly math, but it's partly lifestyle and what you care about when it comes to your healthcare coverage. But 1200 bucks, that's not chump change. It's. It's potentially worth jumping through some of those hoops in order to save that much money every year. All right, Matt, we've got more questions to get to. Let's get theoretical about buy now, pay later, and we'll also man that classic personal finance question of investing or paying down debt. Got a good question on that front. We'll get to those and more right after this. We're teaming up in Daffy's Voices for Good Charity Challenge, competing with other podcasters to see who can raise the most for charity. I've chosen Fire Undue Medical Debt and the Hope Effect to defend free speech, eliminate medical bills, and care for orphans.

A (21:06)

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A (23:12)

All right buddy, we are back from the break. Let's now hear from a listener who has a hypothetical discount question for us.

D (23:20)

Hey, it's Wayne again from Philadelphia calling in with yet another question. This question pertains to Buy now and Pay later services. Now, I would like to preface this with I have never in my life used or even considered to use any of these services. And I say that just to cover myself because I know your views of them are fairly negative. And I understand that and mostly agree. That said, I had a thought experiment. I thought you might want to indulge me in it. What if to attract more people to use Buy now and pay later services and to get them used to using them in general, they started offering large discounts on the items that you were purchasing. Figures something along the lines of 10, 20 30% off. Would something like that move the needle on how you felt about Buy now pay later services? If your answer is no, I would be curious if there's anything these Buy now pay later services could do to interest you in using them. For instance, even a larger discount. Let's say 80% off, just to be ridiculous, or perhaps some other kind of bonus that I can't think of. Is there anything that would get you interested in doing this? And I promise I don't work for these companies and I'm trying to trick you into using the services and. Or becoming an advertiser for them. Buy now pay later services. Can they be made into something that the how to money guys would approve of? What do you say, Matt and Joel? Can you fix it? As always, best Wayne out.

B (24:53)

Inside man for Klarna, Wayne. Not cool, Wayne. We know what you're doing now, Matt, I could. If there was a gun to your head, would you use a buy now pay later service if it was existential life or death?

A (25:04)

Yeah.

B (25:04)

Okay.

A (25:04)

That's not. It wouldn't be the end of the world.

B (25:06)

Okay, yeah, I agree. I agree. So there, there, Wayne, there's the answer. If Matt were facing imminent demise.

A (25:11)

Well, it. A lot of it does come down to the discounts. It comes down to particulars.

B (25:17)

I'm glad that Wayne's avoided them so far. But I think the short answer, it truly is yes. Not even gun to my head sort of situation. I think Wayne is really putting his finger on the heart of why we're not fans of Buy now pay later. If there were discounts involved for using Buy now pay Later I'd be more than happy to consider using them. I actually did, and I think I talked about this on the show. I used Buy now pay later one time and it was because I got a meaningful discount on some running shoes. I don't. I don't remember if it was like a.

A (25:46)

Do you buy anything else other than running shoes now?

B (25:48)

Not really. I just ripped through so fast now. But it was. I was like, I'll just go and buy these shoes. They're a good price here. And then there was, I think it was like 50 bucks off. 150 bucks for using Klarna. And I was like, I'll just get another pair of shoes. I stick them on top of my closet mat in a row and then I just like pull down the next pair when I need it. But yeah, I was like, well, if they're going to offer me 50 bucks off, then I'm happy. I'm happy to use Buy now, pay later. And then I just didn't use it like Buy now, pay Later. I immediately paid off the loan or whatever they call it in order to avoid the behavioral trap. Because I just don't want to be caught in that sort of like I've got how many outstanding loans do I have and am I being tempted to buy things I wouldn't otherwise buy? But yeah, if there was like a 10 or 20% off perk for using Buy now pay Later, I'd probably use it a lot more.

A (26:32)

Yeah. You know, occasionally folks will reach out to us to say that, well, credit cards, they're not much better than buy now, pay Later. Like you are still using debt to purchase something that you don't have the money for at the time. And that's, that's kind of true. But I think I would say that if that is how you are actually using your credit cards and if that is how you are using your buy now, pay later, well then that's not something I'm happy with. Right.

B (26:55)

Not happy with you.

A (26:56)

I'm not. Because if that, if you don't have the cash on, like you need to have the cash on hand if you are going to use these methods of payment, it doesn't matter if it's a credit card or if it's a buy now, pay Later. Like that is the, like you must have that ticket in order to ride. Like that is like we're trying to raise the standard here. We're trying to raise the bar. Like the cash on hand, that is your license to be able to play this game. Otherwise then it's not, it's too slippery of a slope. Otherwise we don't want you messing with it at all. And so if, okay, then if they are the same, you got the cash on hand, why would you then go with a credit card over the buy, not pay later? And it does come down to the, to the perks. Going back to what you were saying as far as getting the discount, you were saying like maybe get like 10 or 20% off. Like truly if, like I would do it for like 5% off. Yeah, because.

B (27:42)

Because that's roughly what a credit card.

A (27:43)

Yeah, because I'm getting anywhere between 2% and 6% off with my credit cards. If there is a buy now, pay later, and this is me maybe wishing this out into existence, but if there's a buy now, pay later that was willing to offer 5% off just across the board in order to use their products, guess what? I would do it I would get in there, I'd figure out how to incorporate that into my financial system, into my Excel spreadsheets to spread that out over the four months. But actually probably wouldn't do that. I probably just like I do with a credit card. I would pay it off at the end of the month, snag the discount, and I would probably stop using credit cards. Although that being said, there are other perks as well that the credit cards offer, right?

B (28:20)

Yeah.

A (28:21)

Not just the discount, but I think I would consider it like the buyer.

B (28:24)

Protections and how if someone steals your credit card, I wouldn't rent a card.

A (28:27)

I'm sorry, I wouldn't rent a vehicle with Buy Not Pay Later.

B (28:31)

Yeah.

A (28:31)

And some of these other flight and some of these other perks that maybe we can touch on. But as far as just general spending, I think I do it even for 5%. Not even. You don't even need to attempt me.

B (28:41)

With 80% because you're so what you're really getting at the heart at is that credit cards offer meaningful protections and benefits when you use them. The only thing that Buy Now Pay later offers, the only perk you get is you get to pay that item off over a longer period of time. And so what that leads to for some people, what that has led to for so many is poor behavioral and financial results, which have been well documented. People spend more on average when they have the ability to use Buy Now Pay Later Klarna or After pay or whatever at checkout. And it's, it's just one of the reasons to be wary when you see those statistics, that that's why retailers want to do business with Buy Now Pay later companies, because they know that when they make that available at checkout, people will buy more stuff. They will add more things to their cart, it will juice their sales. And you could argue that tapping your credit card to pay insulates you from maybe some of the pain and friction of buying too. And yes, I think that can be true for lots of folks. But the goal of using a credit card, it's not just to mitigate the pain of purchases, but that is the whole essential use case and reason for existence of Buy Now Pay later companies. To mitigate friction. There are important consumer protections alongside these rewards that I think boosting your credit score Buy Now Pay later doesn't do that. Credit cards do help do that. I think there's so many, even though credit cards have their downsides, there are so many potential positives for using them if you use them effectively, there just really aren't any for buy not pay later.

A (30:10)

Yeah. Thinking about the frictionless, I'm assuming are there apps on your phone or can you put Klarna or the different buy now pay later companies in your wallet? Right. Because I like, I've been thinking about it recently and the fact that I can double click and pay and then the, the little transaction device, the clover or the square pay or whatever. Like when they has. When it's got the little. When it's got the little ding, like the little chime. There's something about that that makes it so satisfying. Like. And I think I've mentioned this before, but I've. Since that, since I've mentioned it previously, I've been thinking about that because it used to be what with a chip, you stick it in there and it would make this terrible sound like that.

B (30:51)

Yeah.

A (30:51)

And it may. What does that reinforce? It makes it seem like you did something wrong as opposed to they completely changed the user interface of it and now it's like this nice little Ching. Congratulations, you have been approved. You did it.

B (31:04)

I think that was half the reason they invented technology.

A (31:07)

It's a nice pat on the back and I think that's the friction. Whereas honestly, I think credit cards feel a little more dangerous because of the fact that we can use them in Apple Pay or the Google Pay in the wallets as opposed to. Because when you're sitting down at a computer clicking the four easy installments, that doesn't seem any more difficult to me than the fact that you've got a credit card auto saved in there. Right. But the impersonness of that sort of physical response that a device does to you when you purchase something, that to me almost puts credit cards back on my radar. As far as the payment method, that might be a bit more nefarious right now.

B (31:43)

Yeah, yeah. Well, we talked about this with Jay Zagorsky a while back. Right. When he professor who writes about the power of cash. And I do think they're again, kind of what you're getting at is the insertion took a few seconds. It was kind of annoying. The tapping makes it.

A (31:59)

And then the awful buzz. Yeah.

B (32:01)

It makes it super easy and you feel like you're breezing through the line. And I think that is actually a downside. Really easy to use credit cards opposed.

A (32:10)

To pulling out your wallet, physically parting with the cash that's on hand.

B (32:13)

That's right. So we have to be careful about how we're paying, what we're getting used to, how we're reconciling our books. And looking at our spending at the end of the month. And if buy now, pay later works for you, you're using it in a really intentional manner and you're not overspending using those services, then by all means, like you do you. But I just think the, the whole way they're designed is essentially to get people to spend in ways they otherwise wouldn't, to become even more of a consumer. And I think those incentives have really gotten the best of a lot of people.

A (32:46)

Speaking of paying with cash, did you notice the old lady who was paying for her coffee with cash this morning?

B (32:52)

No.

A (32:53)

And she was a little confused about the price. And he's like, oh no, we actually round down when you pay with cash. And so he didn't say the precise amount, but I was like, oh my gosh, that's right. Yeah, because when you pay with card, they charge you that. That service fee.

B (33:05)

That's true. Yeah.

A (33:06)

But yeah. Fascinating how that has an impact on how it is we consume though.

B (33:09)

Joel.

A (33:10)

Let's hear from a listener who is trying to right her former wrongs.

E (33:14)

Hi Matt and Joel, this is Kelsey from Colorado Springs. Love your podcast and I have a question regarding investing for 401k Roth IRA and brokerage accounts versus paying off debt and saving. So for context, my first first job, I wasn't making a bunch. It was my first job and so I was investing 15 to 20% of that, though still in my 401k and putting 500amonth into maxing out my Roth IRA as well. I was young and naive and shot for money. Took out some loans trying to pay those off still, and they're about 18%. Racked up credit card debt, have since been paying those off. But just curious your thoughts on whether I continue Putting into my 401k and Roth verse, maybe pausing those for a little bit just so that I can get my auto and other signature loans paid off. For context, I have about $90,000 in my Roth IRA, about $8,000 in savings, but have about $25,000 in debt. So just trying to figure out how I can navigate this. Thought I was doing the right thing, but now in a little bit of a financial pickle, which ironically feels like it came from investing so much. So any insight is super helpful. Looking to buy a house within the next two years or so and just wanting to make sure I'm handling my money here on out in the right way. Love your podcast. Love what you guys are doing. Thanks.

B (35:04)

Oh man, I'm so glad Kelsey sent this question in Largely because it's like one of those quintessential personal finance questions that people have, the investing versus debt payoff question. And there's never a right or wrong yes or no answer to this either. It's never completely straightforward. And the answer really depends on a number of factors. Despite the credit card debt and the loans that Kelsey has taken out, which aren't our fave, I think we should also just say congrats to her for all she's been able to do saving for her future. She's got $90,000 in a Roth IRA. That in particular.

A (35:39)

That's pretty solid.

B (35:40)

That's solid, man. And that's going to grow to be a much larger amount over time, thanks to compounding returns. And those are. They'll never be taxed, which is one of our favorite things about the Roth ira. That's all your money tax free in the future, which is a beautiful thing. Also, Matt, do you want to highlight how you did something very similar to what Kelsey did by investing? Maybe too early.

A (36:03)

I heard in Kelsey's voice, she's just like, then this happened. Don't feel bad about it. Like, I mean, I don't know. Is it like a rite of passage that there are. There's a certain subset of us who make this mistake? But like you, I heard the glories of compounding. I had some friends who were a little bit older, and I was like, oh, man, they're already investing. I need to. I got to get investing as well.

B (36:22)

You were how old?

A (36:23)

23.

B (36:24)

Okay.

A (36:25)

Yeah, 20.

B (36:25)

Which is.

A (36:25)

Or 22.

B (36:26)

Very young, because the average person doesn't start investing till, like, what, like, late 30s?

A (36:29)

I don't even know. But I just knew that I wanted to invest. I hadn't been. And so I had. I had ground to make up Joel. That's basically where I saw myself. But what I didn't do was have money in the bank. And so I was investing again. I didn't have nearly as much as Kelsey, but I found myself in a tight spot. And instead of relying on debt, I actually pulled those contributions out, which probably ended up costing me more money because the market was down a little bit, and I was investing in mutual funds that were very expensive, and so it was like a double whammy. I learned that lesson there early on.

B (37:04)

Nice to learn early, though.

A (37:06)

Yeah, yeah. Oh, yeah. You learn the lessons with, like, one or two zeros at the end of it, as opposed to, like, three or four.

B (37:11)

Yeah.

A (37:12)

But we're gonna talk about the money gears here, Kelsey, because When you go through the money gears, which by the way, you can find up on the website@howtomoney.com starthere but you will see that paying off high interest debt, that is gear number three, it's just after getting your 401k match, it's just after saving the basic emergency fund, but then after that credit card debt or other debts with double digit interest rates, that should be your top focus. And that is because you are unlikely to see higher returns from the market were you to invest those dollars. And so thinking goes like, why not get the guaranteed return along with the peace of mind of not having that debt in your life anymore.

B (37:54)

Yeah, yeah, yeah, I'm with you on that. I mean, I think for a little while, probably the best way for Kelsey to proceed is to suspend any contributions she might be making to her Roth ira. Yeah, and normally, Matt, we're not telling people don't contribute to your Roth ira, but the truth is if you're doing it out of order, yeah, for a little while, you do need to stop that. We say keep getting the 401k match at work if you have one, but don't contribute beyond that either. And this, if you do both those things, stop contributing to your Roth, contribute less to your 401k, only up to the match. That allows you to claw back more cash flow to work towards debt payoff a heck of a lot more quickly. Every other dollar basically that you can afford to part with each month, it should be funneled then towards the credit card debt and the 18% loan that you mentioned. Hopefully that hyper focus is going to allow you to eradicate those debts more quickly, get them completely out of your life. Because after that, that's when you can resume investing for your future. And you'll have even more money for that purpose with less debt lingering in your life. But sometimes, Matt, like trying to do all those things at once feels like spinning a bunch of plates. And it can feel like it's so easy to lose one and then you lose them all. They all come crashing down to the.

A (39:05)

Ground, drop in place.

B (39:06)

Yeah, that's where the hyper focus comes in. Especially when you have higher interest rate debt. It's like just, let's go all, all in on that. Put the other stuff to the side for now. You can get back to it soon.

A (39:15)

Yeah, well, aside from like that 18% loan that she mentioned which, so she mentioned her car loan and I'm guessing that that car loan is not as offensive as maybe some of her credit card debt or that 8% loan that she took out.

B (39:28)

So I hope so. I imagine you're right.

A (39:30)

Medium or even low interest rate debt is worth addressing here and that is money gear number six. It is further on down the line and that's because there are just more productive things that you can be doing with your money. You don't have to forsake investing until you are completely debt free. We ideally want all the how to money listeners out there to not have a car loan. But if you, if you've already got one in your life and you're making this a binary choice, I would love to see you pay it off a bit more slowly while also investing like I think about too over like the most recent years. Like this isn't the best decision. Right. For her to be investing aggressively while keeping some of the really high rate debt around like the credit cards as well. But it's also not the worst outcome because of what the market has done over the past few years. But the thing is is that is not guaranteed to continue. Yeah, you looked at last year and you're looking at 25% returns. But in the year before that too. But you go one more year, Joel, to 2022 and things weren't looking so great.

B (40:26)

Sure.

A (40:27)

And so you can't count on that continuing even though you're not in the most terrible position given what you have done over the past few years.

B (40:36)

But you are playing with fire.

C (40:36)

Right.

B (40:37)

When you. Yes, it is a keep. It is risky, you know, 18, 20 something percent interest rate debt around in your life for longer than you need to. Man, I always, I hear people sometimes talk to me about credit card debt as though it's not a big deal. I've got six, eight, $10,000 hanging out and I have the cash to pay it off. But you know, I'm just, I'll get around to it. And like nothing bothers me more than that. I don't like to give unsolicited advice. We give advice here because it's solicited. People are asking questions.

A (41:10)

This is not financial advice, by the way.

B (41:11)

This is just for. But when those people come up and say that to me, it bothers me so much even though I don't want to offer my advice.

A (41:20)

But what you want to say is what are you doing with your life?

B (41:22)

Right. Exactly. It is a big problem and there aren't many better things you could be doing with your money than paying that debt down as quickly as possible.

A (41:30)

Is it just interesting though too that Kelsey did invest so aggressively though because that's the thing, I think most folks who are like, I don't know, I'll take care of that at some point. They're also, I'm guessing, not typically the folks who are funneling dollars like it's their, like it's their job into their Roth, which it sounds like Kelsey has. Yeah, she's got way more in her Roth, by the way, than I did when I had to tap my, tap my contributions when I found myself in that cash pinch.

B (41:54)

We should, we should offer up maybe a last little piece of advice here for Kelsey. And I just want to note that she's got money in savings. She's also got money in Roth contributions that are accessible and she could use either one of those or both to pay down her debt more quickly. But I would say in all likelihood, she shouldn't. And that's because, you know, while Roth contributions, they are accessible without paying tax or penalty, you can never get those dollars back into the Roth. Right. Because of annual contribution limits. And you're interrupting the compounding of those dollars. But it can also, I think, create this unhealthy relationship with your retirement accounts that we want to prevent where we're seeing more and more Americans feeling like they can take money out of their retirement account because of changes to the law and just wanting to make it easy and not pinch their lifestyle. They're taking money from their 401s, and that to me is a red flag. We see people going back to the well multiple times to their retirement accounts when they shouldn't. It would also be much better to invest less, to be more frugal and to pay down those debts quickly with cash flow that you have. I think that's the proper relationship you want to this debt, like get rid of it quickly, but don't necessarily pull money from your investments to do so well.

A (43:06)

And she also doesn't want to completely deplete her, her liquid savings on hand in case she finds herself again cash strapped off in the future to where she feels forced to draw on retirement contributions. And specifically she said $8,000 is what she has on hand in cash. And that's not a ton of. I mean, it's great, it's a great start. But after you pay off that high interest rate debt, again, just cruising down, down those money gears, I'd be looking to beef that up to three to six months worth of living expenses. And I'm guessing that's probably for you. Sounds like she might be single. She didn't mention the family, but I'm guessing for her. That's probably like a couple months worth of living expenses. But then beyond that, I would even want to see something even a bit more robust than what she's currently got.

B (43:49)

Agreed. But, Kelsey, you got this. One step at a time. We know you get rid of that debt and get back to investing in no time. All right, Matt, we got more questions to get to. Let's talk about how closing a credit card impacts your credit. We'll get to that and more right after this.

A (44:07)

Hey, it's Matt. Joel's also here and we are fired up because we are back in another charity challenge. If you've been with us for a while, you might remember the last time Joel and I, we went head to head, I may have come out on top.

B (44:19)

Don't rub it in. You did win, I'll give you that. But this year, we're teaming up in Daffy's Voices for Good Charity Challenge, competing with other podcasters to see who can raise the most for charity.

A (44:30)

Yeah, for me, that means supporting GiveWell's top global health charities like malaria nets and vitamin A supplements that save lives for just a few bucks.

B (44:38)

And I've chosen fire, which defends free speech, undue medical debt to wipe out medical bills for families, and the Hope Effect, which is changing the way the world cares for orphans.

A (44:46)

And the best part, we are matching donations so every dollar you give gets doubled. And if you donate by December 2nd, you'll be entered to win a trip for two to the 2026 iHeartradio Music Festival in Vegas. So head to daffy.org voicesforgood find our campaign and donate. That's daffy.org voicesforGood got a rental on Airbnb or VRBO.

B (45:10)

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A (45:19)

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B (45:29)

Whether you manage one property or 10, Lodify helps you run your rental like a real business. How to Money listeners get 20% off with code howtomoney20@logify.com as you make financial progress, you might be tempted to abandon habits that helped you make that progress in the first place. But guesstimating and a lack of awareness that can lead to leaving money on the table. That's where Monarch comes in. I dig Monarch because it helps me keep my Finger on the pulse of every facet of my money. Spending, saving goals, net worth. It's all in one place and it helps keep me motivated to keep going. That's right.

A (46:04)

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B (46:39)

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A (46:52)

All right buddy, we are back from the break. It is now time for the Facebook question of the week, which is from an anonymous poster. Who writes the guys? That would be you and me, Joel. The guys have mentioned multiple times how closing a credit card can cause a dip in your credit score, especially if that is your longest active credit line. I have an opportunity to pay off my mortgage only current outstanding debt and I use my credit card more like a debit card and pay it off weekly. Would paying off my mortgage and essentially closing out that line of credit hurt my credit score, particularly if I am looking at investing in other real estate in the next two years? Yeah, what you think, Joel?

B (47:29)

That's a great question.

A (47:30)

Help this poster to understand.

B (47:32)

And this, this is one of those like non basic personal finance questions where you're getting a little bit further into the weeds about how your credit score is constructed. But I'm glad people are asking this question because all this stuff matters, right? And, and yeah, paying that close of attention to your credit score. How the credit scoring system works shows a high level of personal finance acuity. And it's typically, by the way, why we don't recommend people close a credit card account because if, if you can avoid it, it's actually going to help boost your credit score if you keep that credit card active in your credit mix. If it doesn't have an annual fee, just use it less. And if it does have an annual fee, maybe ask your credit card company if you can downgrade to a card that doesn't have one. That way you kind of get the best of both worlds. But I just want to maybe highlight the credit card thing map before we get to this mortgage thing, because that's a question that gets asked even more frequently. And it's why we typically recommend people, hey, we want you to keep your credit score robust. Closing the card could do the opposite.

A (48:28)

It's more. Yeah. More typical example. But you can't do that with your mortgage. And so if your mortgage is winding down, which is a great thing, you can't really stop that process, nor would you want to.

B (48:39)

Right.

A (48:40)

And so, yeah, paying off your mortgage, it will ding your credit score, which sounds kind of ridiculous, but it's true. The fact that you now completely outright own this home. Yeah. That's actually going to hurt your credit score.

B (48:51)

That's one of those counterintuitive realities of the credit scoring system that people are just like, what in the world? You pay off debt and it takes your score down a peg. It's so counterintuitive, and it's kind of frustrating as an individual consumer, to be honest.

A (49:05)

Yeah, in part. Not only because this is the longest line, essentially line of credit where you have a history here of making payments, but also because of the type. So this is an installment loan that you're paying off, and I'm guessing, based on the way this person is posting, that they don't have any other installment loans. Well, they said. They said they don't have any other debt.

B (49:24)

Yeah.

A (49:24)

So it's not like they have student loans or it's not like they have a car payment where they're paying that on a regular basis, which, by the.

B (49:31)

Way, are great things from a personal finance standpoint, but from a perfect credit score standpoint, not.

A (49:36)

Not the best, not ideal. Yeah. I do want to highlight here, though, that they wrote, I have an opportunity to pay off my mortgage, which tells me that it's optional. Like, I wonder if they came in, they got a bonus at work, or maybe they inherited some money and they're thinking, oh, I want to do something smart with this money. I'm going to pay off the house. I have the opportunity to pay this thing off 10 years early. I should be jumping at this opportunity. And I would say let the opportunity continue to knock and don't answer that door. Because if you've had this loan for this mortgage for a while, or if you like, let's say you refinance 10, 15 years ago, you've got this thing locked In I'm guessing at a really low rate. And again, there are just better things, more optimal things that you can do with those dollars than eliminate a 3% mortgage.

B (50:23)

Yeah, agreed. Saving and investing, and used to saving would not outpace your mortgage rate. But it still does right now, until the Fed lowers interest rates even more and savers get dinged even harder. The chances are if you're in a high yield savings account with one of our favorite online banks that you're outpacing your mortgage rate. By the way, if you do decide to pay off this mortgage, it shouldn't negatively impact your ability to invest in more in real estate and to get the best rates in the coming years. Typically that, yeah, getting rid of that line of credit from your credit mix, not ideal from a credit score perspective, but if you have a great score, yeah, you'll see a ding for a while, maybe for a few months. But without the primary mortgage, you're going to have tons of cash flow to save up for a down payment for those investment properties and your credit score is going to have more of like a short lived impact, negative impact. And I think it'll bounce back pretty quickly.

A (51:16)

I doubt it'll still be dinged after a couple years.

B (51:18)

Yeah, agreed. And even if it, even if it is still down 10, 15 points, if you have a really high credit score to begin with, it doesn't matter, you're still going to be able to qualify for the best rates and terms.

A (51:28)

Alright, you know what, let's do another one here real quick. Another anonymous poster. Hi, trying to learn here. I keep seeing that people should be investing at least 15% of their earnings. I think this is the last money wheel. Does this include or not include money you already put into your 401k?

B (51:44)

Money wheel?

A (51:46)

Joel, Obviously we're doing a man merman. We're doing a bad branding job. Money gear.

B (51:51)

It's the money gears. Money gears. And the reason we call it the money gears is because we like biking and we were like just thinking about, oh, seven gears on a bike when.

A (51:59)

You'Re first getting started, you start off on year one and then before you got to gain some speed before you ramp it up.

B (52:04)

That's right, before you shift gears.

A (52:06)

Yeah. Does this include 401k dollars though, Joel? The 15%.

B (52:10)

Well, the answer is simple. Here we're all about your savings rate being a minimum of 15% of your gross income.

A (52:17)

Gross income includes your 401, right?

B (52:19)

So yes, yes. And so we count investing and we count debt payoff in your savings rate. So whether you're paying off credit card debt or you are putting more money towards 401k, Roth IRA, those are all included, we would say, in your savings rate. What's known as your savings rate. Part of the reason is because you're not spending that money. The other is because if you had to go into liquid savings at some point in the not so distant future, you'd have way too much allocated to cash. You'd be really imbalanced. Right. If like all of your savings rate went straight into to a savings account.

A (52:49)

But isn't that, that's an investing question though, right? Well, versus a percentage.

B (52:55)

What percentage of your savings rate should go to saving, investing, paying down debt? That's another question and it's highly specific.

A (53:00)

But you like diving into these details more than I do. Like some, some of this I think it makes me think about like when you weigh yourself. Like some people are like, no, no, you got to weigh yourself first thing in the morning. And some folks are like, no, I like to do it at night before I get, before I jump in the shower. Or some folks, they strip down and they're totally naked. And some folks are like, ah, I just wear my clothes. Joel always wears his cutoff jean shorts though. He never takes those off like Tobias Junke. I mean, the way I think about it though, as long as you are consistent with like, however it is you are calculating your savings rate over time. As long as you stick with that, I think that's the biggest thing, especially if early retirement is a goal of yours to, you know, slowly but surely ratchet that thing up.

B (53:39)

I guess I just worry that some of the basic personal finance advice through the years has really told people, yeah, save 10% of your income and we've. And we set the bar so low. Granted, a lot of Americans not even hitting that savings rate.

A (53:52)

Yeah.

B (53:53)

But if you set the bar so low and you don't really help people understand how much a higher savings rate can impact their ability to attain financial freedom, then maybe we're letting people, we're not helping people realize what they can build for themselves, the piece out money they can amass and the optionality they're able to find in the not so distant future. If we say, you know, if we keep the savings rate ideal too low or we make it sound like it's not as important. So yeah, I guess that's where I think it is important. But I think you're probably right too, Matt. People obsess over kind of as far.

A (54:23)

As the semantics way that's defined. Yeah, I'm less interested in that. And I think maybe what they're saying too is like, hey, my gross income. And that's what you address there, right? Does it include the $401? It's not just your take home pay and you investing on your own. Within an IRA and within a brokerage account, the 401k totally counts. There are going to be so many 401k millionaires in the next 10, 20, 30 years because of the fact that folks have been auto enrolled. They're going to be doing that like clockwork. The behavioral aspect of it is just firing on all cylinders. And yeah, they're going to be hopefully set up quite well for retirement.

B (54:55)

Yeah, I think this poster will too, if they maintain at least a 15% savings rate, which I think is the floor that most people should be striving for. All right, Matt, let's get back to the beer we had on this episode. This was an athletic brewing company, Upside Dawn Golden Ale.

A (55:09)

Upside Dawn.

B (55:10)

And Athletic, of course, is the heavy hitter in the NA beer space. What are your thoughts on this one?

A (55:16)

The non alcoholic beer space? Yeah, you know what I thought of? So we're not vegan, but it makes me think of the fact that it's harder to cook. I think vegan meals that taste really good. And I think the same is true when it comes to alcohol and beers. Right. Like you're just working with less and it makes it different, tricky. Like if you're not including butter or something, like there's just a depth and a richness that comes with that. And what's funny is I actually saw in here that it says this is vegan. I thought I was going to have like a food analogy, but in fact this is a vegan beer. But I think if you think of this less as a beer and more as a different type of drink, a different type of beverage, then I can get behind it.

D (55:58)

Right.

A (55:59)

If I think of this as like a multi hop water, then I'm like, oh yeah, that was pretty good. Multi hop water.

B (56:05)

That's a really good way to describe.

A (56:06)

It as opposed to thinking of it as an actual beer.

B (56:10)

All I could think while drinking this for the first half of the show was so watery but barely beer flavored. And then I had. Yeah, I just had to reorient my.

A (56:18)

Mind and be like, this isn't, this isn't craft beer.

B (56:21)

Yeah.

A (56:21)

So if you think of it as.

B (56:22)

A, it's craft in a beer, which is not really the same thing.

A (56:25)

Yeah, it's a different category. So if I put this more in the category of seltzer. Oh okay. I could totally see myself opting for this over a lime seltzer from Aldi. Although that would be a whole lot more affordable going with the seltzer. But that being said, it's still got those flavor profiles and I still really enjoyed it. Still really like too. I noticed here on the can that athletic they restore they give up to 2 million every year to help restore local trails.

B (56:54)

Okay.

A (56:54)

That's something you can get behind, right?

B (56:55)

Sure. Yeah. I like that. Makes me I don't think I ever had an o' tools like the your uncle's na beer. This has got to be better.

A (57:03)

I'm pretty sure I've had one at some point.

B (57:04)

That would be so bad.

A (57:04)

I know that this is better.

B (57:06)

This has to be way better.

A (57:07)

I'm not even going to mention the fact that this reminds me of o' tools back when I was 20 years old.

B (57:12)

Doesn't because I never had it. But my goodness, this has to supersede it by a long a long way. Yeah.

A (57:18)

Either way, glad that you and I got to share it today. You can find show notes up on the website@howdymoney.com and that's going to be it, buddy. So until next time, Best friends out. Best friends out.

B (57:42)

We're teaming up in Daffy's Voices for Good Charity Challenge, competing with other podcasters to see who can raise the most for charity. I've chosen Fire, Undue Medical Debt and the Hope Effect to defend free speech, eliminate medical bills and care for orphans.

A (57:57)

And I am taking the effective altruism route by supporting GiveWell's top global health charities that save lives for just a few bucks. Donate@daffy.org voicesforgood by December 2nd to back these charities and for a chance to win a trip to the 2026 iHeartradio Music Festival in Vegas. That's. That's daffy.org voicesforgood time is precious and.

F (58:20)

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G (58:49)

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A (59:46)

This is an iHeart podcast.