Ask HTM - Student Loans in Administrative Forbearance, Intentionally Entering into Collections, and Financial Infidelity #1102

Summary

How to Money, Episode #1102: Listener Questions — Student Loans in Forbearance, Gaming Medical Debt Collections, and Financial Infidelity

Hosts: Joel & Matt (iHeartPodcasts)
Date: February 16, 2026

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Episode Overview

In this engaging listener Q&A episode, best friends and hosts Joel and Matt tackle real-life money dilemmas sent in by How to Money listeners. They dive deep on:

• Strategies for handling medical bills, including using collections to negotiate better discounts
• Navigating student loan forbearance (especially for public service loan forgiveness) during uncertain times
• Maximizing the benefits of HSAs for future reimbursement of family medical expenses
• Financial infidelity in marriage—how to respond when a spouse racks up secret debt
• A Money Gear 7 listener expecting a first baby seeking advice on preparing for parenthood

Throughout, Joel and Matt stick to their signature jargon-free, approachable style, mixing practical advice with relatable humor and just a bit of geeking out over cloud photo storage.
Skip straight to the segments with timestamps and find the most useful takeaways and memorable quotes below.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

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[01:07] Main Q&A Kick-off and Casual Chat

• Joel and Matt open the show answering listener questions ranging from healthcare costs to financial infidelity.
• The duo riff on cloud photo storage, discussing thriftiness vs. convenience—a light intro into the value-driven mindset they apply to money as well.

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[09:51] Frugal or Cheap? Gaming the Hospital Collections System

Listener: Daniel from Salt Lake City

The Situation

• Daniel is facing $10,000+ in recent medical bills.
• After being denied financial assistance, he is offered only a 10% discount from the hospital.
• The internal billing agent suggests waiting until the debt moves to internal collections, where discounts may reach 30–70%, as the debt is not reported to credit bureaus in the first year.

Advice & Analysis

• Joel & Matt highlight the 12-month grace period before medical debt can hit one's credit, emphasizing the power patients have to negotiate during that window.
• Key Point: It’s not “cheap” but “savvy” to use this period strategically—doing so won’t hurt your credit as long as you stay within the year.
• They warn of aggressive collection letters and stress not to let fear force an early, larger payment.
• Negotiation Tactics:
  • Let the account age to maximize leverage.
  • Target a 30–50% discount in internal collections; 10% is “junk” (Matt, 11:14).
  • Prepare to play “game of chicken” with billing — patience pays here.

Notable Quotes

• Matt (13:38): “It’s like a game of chicken… the closer you get to the end of that, they’re thinking: ‘Oh my gosh, this guy may not actually be able to pay, so we’re willing to take less.’”
• Joel (14:51): “Wait a second, you charged me how much for that aspirin?... You can push back on that.”

[Summary Guidance]

• Wait out the process (up to a year) to maximize reduction.
• Don’t pay out of fear; know your rights and deadlines.
• Use the extra time to comb through bills for errors or overcharges.
• Consider the potential for 30–50% (sometimes more) off the original bill.

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[21:18] Student Loans Still in Forbearance? PSLF & Payment Strategy in Limbo

Listener: Adam from Chicago

The Situation

• Adam’s student loans are in administrative forbearance (no payments required).
• He qualifies for Public Service Loan Forgiveness (PSLF) and is using the payment pause to aggressively pay off a 0% credit card balance transfer.
• Unsure if/when to resume student loan payments, or whether he should switch repayment plans to stay PSLF-eligible.

Advice & Analysis

• Big Win: Smartly using the pause to clear high-interest debt—not inflating lifestyle or spending.
• Don’t worry about a growing loan balance if you’re on track for full PSLF; the forgiven balance is what matters, not interim interest.
• PSLF Unlikely to Disappear: Existing participants are protected; “you’re not going to get kicked out of something you’re already in." (Matt, 25:20)
• Practical Steps:
  • Stay in your current SAVE plan for now.
  • Don’t rush to make payments before you must, especially while paying off 0% debt.
  • Build a cash buffer for when payments restart.
• Bonus Tip:
  • Check out the PSLF Buyback Program if you’re close to the 120 qualifying payments; you can retroactively “buy back” missed months with calculated payments.

Notable Quotes

• Joel (23:28): “As payments have restarted… it has put so many people in an even worse financial predicament because they got used to incorporating that student loan payment back into their budget.”
• Matt (26:25): "There's no point in moving to a different repayment plan earlier than is necessary, especially with potential for some of these months in forbearance to count."

[Summary Guidance]

• Prioritize eradicating high-interest credit card debt during forbearance.
• Don't stress about PSLF changes—the program is secure for existing borrowers.
• Sit tight in your current plan; transitions will be announced, and you won't be penalized for optimizing your cash flow in the meantime.

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[29:48] Maximizing HSA Reimbursements—Does Coverage for Kids Stick Once They’re Grown?

Listener: Abby from Iowa

The Situation

• Abby and her husband are in their late 30s, maxing out their HSA and stockpiling medical receipts for future tax-free withdrawals in retirement.
• She wants to ensure she can still reimburse herself for her kids’ medical expenses (e.g., braces at age 8) even when they are long past age 26 and no longer on her insurance.

Advice & Analysis

• Eligibility is Locked at Time of Expense:
  • As long as your child was your dependent when the bill was incurred, you can reimburse decades later—even if she’s 38, not 8!
• Critical Recordkeeping:
  • Keep digital receipts and documentation showing the relationship (tax returns, etc.) for future audits.
  • A spreadsheet or using AI to track dates, descriptions, amounts makes handling this in 20+ years easier.
• Why This Rocks:
  • Grown HSA balances can be tapped tax-free, decades after the fact, for any eligible expense incurred while you/your spouse/dependents were covered.

Notable Quotes

• Joel (33:08): “It's a really cool account if you use it like a health savings account, like as prescribed... but it's super duper extra cool if you invest and you're like growing a stockpile of money that never gets taxed.”
• Matt (35:40): “Regardless of what the future holds… Absolutely. 100% yes, those [old] expenses qualify.”

[Summary Guidance]

• Yes, keep those braces receipts—you can cash them in tax-free decades later!
• File receipts securely, log details, and maintain proofs of dependency.
• The HSA is “retirement account on stealth mode” when handled this way.

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[43:03] Tips for Expecting Parents Already in Money Gear 7

Listener: Tara (Facebook Q)

The Situation

• Tara and her husband are expecting their first baby, already in excellent financial shape (Money Gear 7) and have a hospital bill savings bucket established.

Advice & Analysis

• Estimate hospital costs with your insurer and save accordingly.
• Consider starting a 529 plan (education fund), but don’t go overboard—starter contributions get the tax clock rolling.
• Leverage your earned financial flexibility: take (and savor) time with your child—memory-making has more long-term impact than piling up more money.
• Don’t chase more financial goals at expense of being present with your new family.

Notable Quotes

• Matt (45:25): “Give yourself permission to spend as much time with that baby as you want... It's your presence, not presents.”
• Joel (47:34): "Act like you're in Money Gear 7 ... don't waste that optionality when these are precious times."

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[47:35] Facing Financial Infidelity: When a Spouse Racks Up Hidden Credit Card Debt

Listener: Anonymous

The Situation

• Over the holidays, Anonymous's wife secretly accumulated $6,000 in debt (not her first time); she’s in therapy, and now they’re restricting new credit card use to joint agreement.
• Husband feels frustrated after months building an emergency fund, now wiped out.

Advice & Analysis

• Addiction is Real: Don’t ignore the compulsive/dopamine “hit” nature of online shopping—similar to gambling/addictions made easier by tech and frictionless purchases.
• Immediate Practical Steps (if spouse is willing):
  • Remove saved billing info from browsers, phone, websites (e.g., Amazon one-click).
  • Consider freezing credit with all bureaus to prevent new card openings. “Make sure that junk’s frozen.” (Matt, 53:04)
• Emotional Dynamics: Shame is not an effective motivator—scorn will likely entrench behavior.
  • Seek shared counseling (not just therapy for the shopper).
  • Remember, “You’re on the same team”—work the problem together.
• Analogy:
  • Matt (54:18): “If he always got drunk and then drove somewhere... you'd ask your wife to take the keys from you.”

Notable Quotes

• Joel (54:41): “The more you make her feel ashamed… the pattern is going to repeat, right. Because shame is cyclical in that way.”
• Matt (53:02): “If your credit is frozen, she cannot open...”

[Summary Guidance]

• Address the spending with empathy and cooperation, not blame.
• Tactically, make access to impulsive credit harder (with their buy-in).
• Counseling together may be the best (and only) way to break the cycle—finances are deeply intertwined with emotions and relationship health.

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Memorable Quotes

• Matt, on medical bills: "The entire healthcare system is a bit sketchy. And in this case, we’re going to side with the patients, not the hospitals." ([13:48])
• Joel, on HSA magic: “That completely avoids the tax, man. That’s what makes it, like on steroids, superpower, supercharged.” ([33:08])
• Matt, on PSLF stress: “You’re not going to get kicked out of something you’re already in.” ([25:20])
• Joel, on presence vs. presents: "It’s really easy to think I gotta do more, I can keep doing more... [but] you have a lot of optionality—don’t waste that." ([47:34])
• Joel, on financial infidelity: "Working through it together with the help of a third party could save your marriage and could save your finances." ([55:49])

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Episode Timestamps & Segments

• [01:07] Episode start: Listener question intro, hosts banter on cloud photo storage
• [09:51] Frugal vs. Cheap: Using collections to lower hospital bills
• [21:18] Student loans in forbearance & PSLF strategy in uncertain times
• [29:48] HSA account deep dive—using receipts decades later for kids’ medical expenses
• [43:03] Financial tips for expecting parents in strong financial shape
• [47:35] Financial infidelity: How to respond to a spouse’s hidden spending

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Final Notes

Joel and Matt deliver actionable advice on tricky money dilemmas, all while keeping it authentic, accessible, and often funny. Whether you’re trying to outsmart hospital billing departments, maximize your HSA’s superpowers, or dealing with tough relationship challenges around money, their guidance bridges practical tactics and underlying emotional realities.

Contact: Got your own money question? Record a voice memo and send it to [e-mail] – you might be featured on a future show!

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Best friends out.

Transcript

[Narrator]

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[Matt]

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[Joel]

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[Special Agent Riegel]

Listen to the 6th Bureau on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts or wherever you get your podcasts.

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[Joel]

Welcome to how to Money. I'm Joel.

[Matt]

I'm Matt.

[Joel]

Today we're answering your listener questions.

[Matt]

You know what, buddy? Let's get after it. We're going to hear directly from listeners. We've got a listener who's asking what he should be doing about his student loans that are in forbearance. Another listener is actually looking forward to collections. Could this be a strategy, Joel? We'll talk about what he's thinking about. And another listener actually encountered some financial infidelity. And so I'm going to uncomfortably wade into playing financial counselor maybe, and we'll see what kind of terrible advice that we give in that section of the how to Money podcast.

[Joel]

You didn't even sleep at a holiday in. I didn't.

[Matt]

I didn't even do it, man.

[Joel]

You're still going to try.

[Matt]

Well, hey, you've got this thing about Shutterfly here. We got like a new sponsorship or something?

[Joel]

No, no, no.

[Matt]

No new affiliate code.

[Joel]

So I was not even that I was curious because I have a lot of photos that I don't really have backed up. And I guess I could just like buy a cheap hard drive and download everything from my phone and send it over to a hard drive, but it would be nice to have them stored in the cloud somewhere. Oh, yeah. And I could, you know, Matt, you know this about me. I'm kind of cheap sometimes. At times I can be cheap. And so I'm wondering. I don't pay for the Apple cloud. What's it called Apple Cloud.

[Matt]

Icloud.

[Joel]

Icloud.

[Matt]

Icloud.

[Joel]

I should have known that.

[Matt]

Are you past your. We talked about this last week. That's what the I stands for for me. I looked it up while I was editing that podcast, that episode. It was Internet. Cause I think I. Oh, really? Because before then, the computers weren't always directly, like, tied or tethered to the Internet or something. So evidently, it was like, oh, yeah, this stands for this device that is now interfacing with the Internet, with the World Wide Web.

[Joel]

Well, it works well because nobody thinks of it like that anymore, and they.

[Matt]

Just think, isn't it?

[Joel]

No, it's the Mac for me. Yeah.

[Matt]

Actually, I was thinking when you said that. Oh, yeah, it probably is more of, like. Because it's. It was sort of like that era where you had all that cool ads, the silhouettes dancing with, you know, like. Yeah, I was with you. I wasn't gonna question it, but I did look it up so I could.

[Joel]

Pay for the cloud via Apple. A dollar a month, I think, right?

[Matt]

No, you get five gigabytes for free. Right. So did you.

[Joel]

Oh, really?

[Matt]

I think so.

[Joel]

Okay. Well, it keeps giving me this warning over and over, like, your stuff's not backed up, bro. Probably because you filled it.

[Matt]

Yeah, that's probably it. Yeah, you filled it up.

[Joel]

And I'm like, well, I don't want to pay you money every month. It feels like blackmail. And so leave me alone. And maybe I should just get over that. But I was curious because actually, this was the biggest reason to have a Google Pixel phone back in the.

[Matt]

The automatic Google photo storage.

[Joel]

Google basically said, hey, you get unlimited photo storage. And I was like, this is one of those things that can keep me with Pixel. When they got rid of it, I was like, well, you've lost your edge.

[Matt]

So the question is, do you still have those photos, or did you lose them to the cloud? All the photos that you.

[Joel]

That's a really good question. I don't know if I know. Like, I feel that's. They're probably lingering somewhere, but they might be, like, an old piece of hardware.

[Matt]

Yeah. All right, give me the. Give me the Shutterfly tie in. I think I know where this is going.

[Joel]

So. Shutterfly, I was, like, looking this up. I was like, who offers free photo storage? And nobody really does anymore. It used to be Flickr. Flickr used to as well. Oh, yeah. Back. Oh, is it.

[Matt]

What is it, 2010? I mean, come on, buddy.

[Joel]

But Shutterfly apparently says you can get free unlimited photo storage. If you buy a product once every 18 months.

[Matt]

Okay.

[Joel]

And I was like, that seems like a reasonable trade off because I'm not paying somebody money every single month.

[Matt]

Wait, how much did you say? Like, how much storage?

[Joel]

It's unlimited.

[Matt]

Really?

[Joel]

I think it's unlimited.

[Matt]

Oh, fascinating. Wait, is it unlimited for the photos that you upload in order to create the product that they're selling you? No, I think, like, literally you can.

[Joel]

Just be like, I think you can.

[Matt]

Dump all of your photos.

[Joel]

I think so. Yeah. Maybe I need to go look at the fine print.

[Matt]

Sorry for the sound effect, folks. Pretty sure that's what I read. Maybe. Maybe I, yeah, unconsciously did the sound effect because that's what I think about it. I think it's fine. First of all, I love that you searched. Is there a. I'm sure you chatted it or whatever? Like, is there a free option out there? Because I appreciate that. That you're out there looking for.

[Joel]

You're looking for the deal, trying to find the workaround.

[Matt]

But the reason I asked about your Google Photos is because it can be so hard to keep up with all these different accounts, for sure, and which photos you have stored all over the place. And this is coming from someone who has had a lot of experience when it comes to storing photos. I used to be a photographer, had tons, like, tons and tons of terabytes of images and files. And before that, I was a designer. And so my Illustrator files and my Photoshop files, like, these were all files that I wanted to own and possess and to keep on my person. And I personally resisted the cloud, but I ultimately, I don't keep up with all the different spots where I've got all my files, all my pictures stashed. We, as a family, pay for the upgraded icloud.

[Joel]

Okay. So you can get a family account as well. So we can kind of store it together, pay one fee for all.

[Matt]

So that's. That's the benefit is I pay one price for the two terabytes. It's ten bucks a month. And guess what? All of my photos are on there. Kate's iPhone's backed up, my iPhone's backed up, my computer's backed up, the laptops backed up to that. That shared family plan. It makes it a little bit easier to get in there and control screen time settings. And her oldest daughters, her. Her iPhone is backed up onto there as well. It's. I love how integrated it is, dude. The ability to be able to look back at pictures from, like, 25 years ago. Like, the featured photos I love that. Yeah, I love that we've talked about memory dividends and having those images, those pictures, like, at your fingertips. I think it's worth it, personally. And this is, this is something I've done in the. I guess maybe last year, a couple years ago is when I finally said, all right, I'm going to move all my entire photo library, you know, onto the cloud and onto the web, as opposed to it living on a single single device that was backed up. But personally, I think it's. I think it's massively worth it.

[Joel]

Okay. Because I feel like I'm living in like the early 2000s. I'm like, the files are in the computer.

[Matt]

It's like 2005.

[Joel]

I think I need to have some sort of cloud backup and maybe I just need to stop being a loser and just pony up the 10 bucks.

[Matt]

Well, if listeners have a suggestion, something outside of the box, I would love to hear it because for us, we have found that it's worth it and it works. And oh, man, here's this.

[Joel]

I hate all the notifications all the time. It's like, your stuff's not backed up. Your stuff's not backed up.

[Matt]

I know, man. They're trying to get you.

[Joel]

I know. I feel like I'm being like pushed into this relationship against my will.

[Matt]

Feels like you're getting bullied.

[Joel]

Yes.

[Matt]

Have you optimized for photo storage? It's where they. It's like, have you, have you looked into your photos, your settings?

[Joel]

I think I've done that recently, at least.

[Matt]

Basically, it stores on your device the, like a low res version and the high res is living on the web, on the cloud. So that way if you recall the photo, it'll instantly download it, basically and allow you to see the full res if you're like zooming in or something like that.

[Joel]

That still requires paying for the surface, though.

[Matt]

Well, that just requires. Or it requires less space on your actual phone.

[Joel]

Okay.

[Matt]

So, yeah, I don't know. I wanted to say one other benefit. Man, I don't want this to sound like an ad for icloud, but Kate and I do a shared photo library as well, which means that any photo she takes and any photo I take, we're able to see each other's photos, which is awesome. And I recently discovered this with. When you're putting together, speaking of buying products from different photo companies, I was creating a photo album for last year. Again, memory dividends. Like, you know, I remember looking at photo albums as a kid and the ability to look back at trips and stuff that we had going on and seeing both of our photos together in one single stream to kind of pick the. Oh, oh, actually, I want to go with that one instead. Taken from a better angle, that kind of thing. I don't know. To me, that was yet another reason where I was so thankful to be able to have overlapping photo storage like that.

[Joel]

I'm just, like, so averse to bringing another subscription into my life.

[Matt]

I resisted it for a long time, too, dude. But I'm telling you, the water's fine. It's if. Yeah, if you're willing to pay it up, it's really nice.

[Joel]

And if you're a listener out there and you're like, no, no, there's a better way forward, please let me know. Yeah. All right, let's mention the beer we're having on this episode. It's called Cloak and Dagger. It's a Vienna lager by Incendiary Brewing. We'll give our thoughts on this one later on in the episode.

[Matt]

Yeah, boy.

[Joel]

And if you have a money question we want to hear from you, you can go to howtomoney. Com, Ask or just literally record a voice memo with your money question on your phone and send it over to us howtomoneypodmail.com all right, Matt, let's take questions. This question is specifically about It's a frugal or cheap conundrum in regards to healthcare costs.

[Daniel (Listener)]

Hey, Joel and Matt, this is Daniel from Salt Lake City. I love the podcast, so thanks for all you guys. Do I have a question about whether something I'm considering is frugal or is just cheap? So we've had a lot of medical expenses recently, and I've been trying to get discounts wherever possible. I applied for financial assistance even though I didn't expect to qualify, and ultimately they deny me. So when I called the billing department, they told me the best discount they could do is just 10%. Now, I've done this before with other hospitals, and I've gotten a 30% discount before, but they wouldn't go any lower. So I asked if there was anything else they could do. And the billing specialists, they mentioned something unconventional. They said, wait until the bill goes to their internal collections. You see, he explained that they don't report to the credit bureau and that once the account is in the collections, they often will discount at 30, 50, maybe even 70%. So my question is, would waiting for it to go to internal collections to get a steeper discount be considered frugal, or is that crossing into cheap? Thanks, guys, for all your help.

[Matt]

Ooh, a billing. Frugal or cheap? Joel and I want to, before we kick things off here, I want to say that that 10% discount, you know, that's just like the standard boilerplate. If anybody asks, you're allowed to give them 10% without having to check with the manager, that kind of thing.

[Joel]

That means it's like literally the lowest possible discount they offer. And you know, if you play, if you play ball a little bit harder, you can do better.

[Matt]

Totally.

[Joel]

Yeah.

[Matt]

And I think Daniel knows that. But I love that you're asking the question, Daniel, because medical debt is such a pain in the butt, as the V. Vast majority of Americans have found out at one point or the other. But I'm glad you've gone down the financial assistance pathway and you know, you asked for that discount. Those are the two most likely ways to have medical debt either forgiven or to have that bill reduced in the first place. But because it sounds like you make a pretty good income, the hospital's being a little stingy with you, which I get. But it is true that you can let this process just linger for a little bit longer in hopes of getting a fatter discount without financially harming yourself. And that's actually the key point. Yeah, that's worth driving home here.

[Joel]

And when you say let it linger longer, that's because there's essentially a 12 month time frame that you have to work in here.

[Matt]

A 365 day grace period.

[Joel]

That's right. Where that, this bill will not be reported to collections if it remains unpaid. Right. At, at that point after that, 365 days. That's when the unpaid debt can impact your credit, hurt your credit score live on your credit report. So we want you to be aware of that deadline. But that means you've got like a lot of time, a lot of room to wiggle in an attempt to negotiate this debt down. And you know, we, we don't want your desire to get a deal and to pay less have a long term impact on your credit score because that can cascade. It can impact other areas of your life significantly in a negative way. And so just know this, you're probably gonna get some, some letters in the mail with big red letters on them saying like final notice or something like that. But don't freak out.

[Matt]

Bill overdue.

[Joel]

Right. You're gonna get all sorts of this. And that's what I think causes a lot of people to pay before they're ready because it strikes fear into your heart, understandably. So when you see those letters Written on a mailer, that's that you get in, you know, in snail mail. But this, this 12 month window essentially gives you a lot of time and a lot of leverage to wait for a better deal. Yeah, most people don't realize that that's their right. They don't know that that's like how things work. And so because of that, they pay prematurely and they don't get maybe the discount or the break in price that they deserve.

[Matt]

Yeah, it's like a game of chicken.

[Joel]

Right.

[Matt]

Because they're, they're wanting you to flinch first, but the closer you get to the end of that, they're thinking, oh my gosh, this guy may not actually be able to pay, so we're willing to take less.

[Joel]

Yeah.

[Matt]

And you know, this is going to sound a bit sketchy where you're waiting to get a better deal, but you know, I'm going to say that the entire healthcare system is a bit sketchy. And consumers have to figure out how it is they're going to navigate the system that isn't well constructed. It seems a bit unfair to a lot of folks. And in this case, we're going to side with the patients, we're going to side with you, Daniel, not the, not for the hospitals out there. And in large part, this is another reason why it's not sketchy, is this grace period exists because oftentimes, because most people have insurance. And so if you get a claim that's denied, well, it gives you time to fight that claim because the hospital wants you to have time. Like they're doing this for you so that you can get your insurance company to pay them. They're like, help me help you. So that's one of the reasons. But also there can be medical billing errors. And so that gives you time to spend some time looking over the bill, making sure that things are coded correctly. That's the word, right? Yeah.

[Joel]

And to make sure. Wait a second, you charged me how much for that aspirin? Or wait, you charged me for this thing that, that seems I didn't actually get that service. Yeah, yeah. And you can push back on that.

[Matt]

So it's not just the insurance company making errors, but it oftentimes can be the actual hospital making errors from time to time. And I want to go back to what you said too. I think how to Money listeners in particular are at a distinct disadvantage here because I think if you are listening to the show, you are somebody who's a bit more organized. You certainly've got financial goals, like in your sights Right. And so you see this thing show up and all of a sudden it looks like a financial threat and you just want to pounce on it. You want to immediately eliminate it. But what that means is you're actually paying more than you need to.

[Joel]

Yeah, yeah. If you eradicate it too quickly, it means you've like, you didn't use your leverage and you didn't use the possibility like the tactics that are available to you to try and reduce that bill instead of just like paying the full price and getting it over with. I get that impulse, but ultimately that is going to cost you more than you need to pay.

[Matt]

Totally. I just think it's ironic that somebody who's maybe more disorganized out there, yellowing is going to be the one who's paying like actually will be able to pay less because, oh, I hadn't seen that bill or I didn't even open that envelope. There's like three of them on the desk and you know, oh, that was six months ago. And all of a sudden they've cut the bill by like 30%. And talking about internally, oh, maybe 40%.

[Joel]

That's why Daniel's like, it's like best of both worlds for Daniel. Right. Because he is organized and he's ready, he's prepared and he's looking for a discount. So it's not, he's not just yoloing it. He's. He's going to this eyes wide open and attempt to, to save money. I also thought it was really interesting the person on the phone and you will occasionally find this right. Where they toss out a piece of advice and it's kind of like you ever played blackjack mad at a casino and never, oh, it's really fun.

[Matt]

I know how it's played.

[Joel]

It's been a long time.

[Matt]

Yeah.

[Joel]

But you'll find some, some people or some of the dealers are a little more tight lipped than others. And when you're playing with people who don't know how to play blackjack, you are thankful when the dealer is a little more open about strategy because they're often, they teach you a little bit. They help the person make a better move and that helps everyone at the table. And so this is one of those things where the person in customer service is not being tight lipped, they're being a little, hey, actually in our system, this is how it works. And if you wait a little bit longer, they're basically telegraphing this to you.

[Matt]

They're like advocating on your behalf.

[Joel]

That's right. Saying, well, I can't help you right now, but if you take this strategy, you can probably save in the long run. So I, I think I would do what Daniel is suggesting. I would wait for it to go into collections in an attempt to work out a one time cash payment for a lower percentage of the balance. And Matt, you talked about 10% being a crummy discount. What, what do you think maybe a good discount to shoot for would be?

[Matt]

Oh, I mean, I think it varies. So here's the thing, full disclosure. I've not done this personally, but I kind of am excited for the next medical bill. Again just to be like, don't think I'm going to pay it for a little bit and see what happens. Like, I think 30, like a slam dunk, like, I'm sorry, that that is most definitely going to be offered to you whether or not you get a 40% or 50% or even higher. I think, I don't know. But I do think the closer you get to the end of that Runway.

[Joel]

Yeah.

[Matt]

They, you know, collections, they start feeling a little bit nervous because beyond that they're selling it for pennies on the dollar to an, an external collections agency.

[Joel]

That's right.

[Matt]

And at that point they're going to receive even less from a potential debtor.

[Joel]

Yeah, I, I think I would kind of treat this as a game a little bit. Daniel's already kind of taking that gamification approach. But I think you're right. I think shooting for that 50 plus percent discount and then settling for a 30% discount. Right. If, if that's all that's offered to you after a significant time period of trying to work this out, it's going to be a little bit of a part time job. It's going to be a little bit like playing whack a mole. But ultimately I think if you, if you are intent on saving money on this bill and you kind of let things run their course while being active in the process, you can probably save a lot of money off this medical bill. And I don't know, maybe at some point we should probably publish like a how to guide, like how to. And you know what, actually it's on my radar, Matt, to do a full episode on this soon. So let's make that happen also. Sounds good.

[Matt]

Actually we're going to talk more about healthcare stuff, HSAs, but not from a medical standpoint. From an investing standpoint. We'll get to that and more right after this.

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[Matt]

In the day, Integration at night when.

[Narrator]

Segregation was the law, one mysterious black club owner had his own rules.

[Matt]

We didn't worry about what went on outside. It was like stepping in another world.

[Narrator]

Inside Charlie's Place, black and white people danced together. But not everyone was happy about it.

[Matt]

You saw the kkk. Yeah, they were dressed up in their uniform. The KKK set out to raid Charlie, take him away from here. Charlie was an example of power. They had to crush him.

[Narrator]

From Atlas Obscura, Rococo Punch and visit Myrtle beach comes Charlie Place, a story that was nearly lost to time. Until now. Listen to Charlie's place on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcast.

[Joel]

All right, we're back. We got more of your money questions to get to. Let's get to a question now about student loans and how to proceed in a time where things are a little murky.

[Adam (Listener)]

Hey, Matt and Joel, this is Adam in Chicago. So my question is about student loans. Currently I qualify for public service loan forgiveness, but my loans are still in forbearance. Therefore, payments are not considered qualifying. And that's fine for now because I'm using that extra money on MoneyGear 3 to pay off high interest credit card debt through a 0% interest balance transfer I did on a new card. I have the save plan right now. So what do you recommend I do when I finish paying off this credit card debt? Should I switch out of the plan to another like IDR payment or. I don't know. I have no idea. Since the current administration and Congress, you know, are still debating things so I'm kind of skipping. I know money gear is four and five thinking about, you know, low interest debt, but I wanted to make sure I don't screw up any loan forgiveness stuff in the future. Thanks for your advice.

[iHeart Advertising Announcer]

Cheers.

[Matt]

Cheers indeed, Adam. And first off, I hope that Joel's recent conversation. So Joel talked with Stanley Tate, the student loan lawyer.

[Joel]

He's awesome.

[Matt]

Stanley Tate, Esquire.

[Joel]

He's also like laid back, which I so appreciate because we're talking about such an intense subject. There's so much like emotion around student loans and there's so much frustration. And Stanley's just like, chill, man.

[Matt]

A literal, nice, calming voice.

[Joel]

Yes.

[Matt]

Just also how in how he approaches student loans and what all is going on right now as well. But in addition to that, Adam, I love that you are using this forbearance period to make progress on your other money goals. Right? Like you are not increasing your spending, you're not counting your chickens before they hatch to a certain extent here, this multi year pause, man, it was such a good time for folks to do what it is that you are doing. But sadly, most folks didn't heed that advice. And that's the advice that we were spouting. Like we were telling people just to, hey, make hay while the sun shining.

[Joel]

Take advantage of like Don Quixote or something, tilting at windmills. Because I don't know how many people were listening, but I definitely, I know some how to money folks were listening and they, we've heard from those people.

[Matt]

Maybe Adam, maybe he was listening.

[Joel]

Probably. Yes, we heard, we've heard from those people who were able to do massive things, make huge strides by not having a student loan payment in their life for a while and by doing really intelligent stuff with that money in that meantime. But yeah, as payments have restarted, we have documented this too on the show, Matt. It has put so many people in an even worse financial predicament because they got used to incorporating that student loan payment back into their budget. Prices are rising. I get it. You're like, great, now I've got a little more money on hand to make ends meet. But then when payments restart, people are like, ah, holy crap, I don't know what to do. And it has put a lot of folks in a bind, obviously a lot of people behind on payments right now. And so, Adam, specifically to your question, we would say keep trying to pay off that 0% interest credit card debt. The goal would be to eradicate it before your payment restarts, which is likely to be this spring or summer. Like I Don't know exactly when. That's still kind of in limbo. But the big risk in not paying towards your loans while you're in this administrative forbearance is. Is racking up more debt because interest is accruing. But that actually isn't that big of a deal for you. Right. Because you're working towards full debt forgiveness down the line. So even if the balance is getting bigger, hopefully it's that bigger balance essentially that's going to be forgiven down the road. And so this is just not as daunting to have a growing balance as someone who isn't working, who is toward pslf. So that is true.

[Matt]

Yeah.

[Joel]

And by the way, I know some people worry about the how long PSLF is it going to stick around and you know, talking with Stanley and just everything else I've seen, there is. There's no danger of PSLF going away. So that. That's not something that plans that are already in existence. Yes. Yeah.

[Matt]

I mean they're not going to say that they're grandfathered in, but you're not going to get kicked out of something that you are already in.

[Joel]

There's actually with the safe plan that. Well, but that was like a short.

[Matt]

Was never actually implemented.

[Joel]

I mean people got onto the plan. That is true. And.

[Matt]

And then it was completely gutted and.

[Joel]

It was rug pulled. It was gutted. So. But PSLF is like in.

[Matt]

It's in statutes. Yeah, yeah. Student loan, not just lore, but actual policy.

[Joel]

Yeah.

[Matt]

But there's actually a chance that some of these months where you're not paying are gonna count towards your PSLF timeline, which by the way is public service loan forgiveness. It is not likely, but it might be possible because who knows. The student loan space, it's a moving target right now, so it's tough to know. But man, if I were in your shoes, I would stay put in the safe plan for the time being as you basically get automatically enrolled into the new wrap that which is repayment assistance plan. And we'll see what that looks like.

[Joel]

Yeah, it's like you're hanging on. You're waiting for them to actually finish pulling the rug. But for that time you can be on the save rug.

[Matt]

Yeah, just stay put. There's no point in moving to a different repayment plan earlier than is necessary, especially with a potential for some of these months that you spent in forbearance to count towards your PSLF timeline. You're going to hit it one of these days. So there's just no need to like rush to kickstart payments again, especially given your situation. Oh, and by the way, you mentioned too, as far as like him, hopefully eliminating that high interest rate, that credit card debt prior to student loans resuming, but also before that 0% period of time before that expires as well because that is going to be a sky high rate compared to, you know, whatever the rate is on a student loan.

[Joel]

That's a great point.

[Matt]

So it's a double whammy for you to get rid of that credit card debt and hopefully never enter into it again.

[Joel]

Yeah, yeah, that's a good point. Because if you start paying on the student loan and it and you lose your vigor of paying off that credit card debt and then you're starting to pay interest on that puppy again, paying off the debt, trying to do both, you have that singular focus right now and you have a great timeline to pay it down with without paying interest. So I think that's wise, Matt. And ultimately, Adam, we don't want you to trigger a higher payment or, you know, hit your head against a wall trying to talk to student loan servicers who are backlogged. When you're in a solid spot, the key is just to keep doing what you're doing, pay down the debt, build a savings buffer so that you're ready for payments to resume and then it's not going to be nearly as much of a financial shock in say June or July when those payments come back and you're migrated because you're mentally prepared. Right. Especially, especially if you've saved up a few months worth of payments and you have fewer debt obligations. That is the double whammy. Like I've got no credit card debt anymore, so that money's safe and it can go towards other things. And at the same time, you built up a little bit of cushion. That's the best of both worlds.

[Matt]

That's right. Yeah. We would be remiss to not mention the PSLF buyback program. So the way this works, if you are close to forgiveness, this is a way for you to retroactively turn months that didn't count as qualifying PSLF payments. So in your case, it's the months that you spent in forbearance into qualifying months by paying what you like would have paid under an income driven an IDR plan during those months. But you can only take advantage of that if you have enough cash on hand to get you exactly to that 120month mark. And so it's like a very, I don't know, it's a very precise Maneuver. Yeah. And if you are really close to being out of that, I think that's something. It's sort of like some folks who are just like, man, I. I'm thinking about folks who have like a mortgage and they're just like, I'm just going to. I want to be done with it. I'm so close. So that's up to you and whether that makes sense from given your financial situation.

[Joel]

And it seems like with Adam's particulars there are just other things that are higher priority.

[Matt]

I think he's got other goals. I think he's absolutely just going to let this thing. He's going to write it out and just have a ton forgiven.

[Joel]

But for a handful of folks out there, that could make sense. I guess it's worth at least considering the PSLF buyback program. If you're like, oh man, I'm within shouting distance, I'm so close and I could get rid of it sooner rather than later and I've got the cash on hand, then boom. I don't know, it's at least worth kind of running the numbers and thinking through it.

[Matt]

That's right, Joel. Let's hear from a listener who is using retirement accounts that is even sweeter than the Roth ira. Let's hear from Abby.

[Abby (Listener)]

Hi, Matt and Joel. This is Abby from Iowa. I have a quick question regarding HSA money distributions. My husband and I are in our late 30s with two children and working to currently grow our HSA funds and saving our receipts to make the most of this account in our retirement years. My question has to do with receipts regarding our children's medical expenses at the moment. When they're dependents, we can use their expenses to be reimbursed. But will this still be the case once they're over 26 and off our insurance plans? For example, my 8 year old is about to get braces. Will we be able to use this receipt 20 years down the road when she's no longer a dependent? Or will it only be my husband and I's expenses that we can get reimbursed for? Thanks for any information you can give us. And go Hawks.

[Joel]

Matt, do you also root for the Hawks?

[Matt]

Is that a sports team?

[Joel]

I think so. I think it's a sports ball reference.

[Matt]

The Atlanta Hawks. She's in Iowa. Why is she rooting for the Hawks?

[Joel]

Is that the Hawkeyes? Is that. Maybe that's the Iowa Hawkeyes and maybe they call them Hawks for short.

[Matt]

Oh, I'm sure that makes more sense.

[Joel]

I know the mascots for most of these teams because I picture the logo.

[Matt]

It'S got the circle with the hawk outline. It's classic.

[Joel]

I used to care about.

[Matt]

From a graphic design standpoint, I love it. But from an actual sports ball standpoint, not quite my thing.

[Joel]

I mean, I feel so out of the loop on sports these days, but I. Gosh, I used to more like the sport.

[Matt]

The sport of running. That's what you're obsessed with?

[Joel]

Yeah, that's like a solo pursuit. For the most part though. It used to be like, oh, please. Gathering with friends to watch you run.

[Matt]

With more friends than anybody I've ever heard of.

[Joel]

That's true. I have a lot of running buddies.

[Matt]

Wish I think when it started. Yeah, no, we'll talk about this. Okay, enough of the sports talk.

[Joel]

But let's, let's, let's talk about HSAs.

[Matt]

Matt.

[Joel]

I recently spoke with how to money listener who is retired, and he's so thrilled that he built up such a big HSA balance. I bet he is. And he's, he's like over, over. He was glowing about the flexibility that the account affords him, like the ability to tap it without paying a dime of tax based on healthcare costs that he accrued decades before. He was just like over the moon with how incredible the HSA is. And this is pretty cool. This sounds like the boat Abby's gonna find herself in if she continues down this path. We gotta address her question. We gotta get to some of the nitty gritties. But that's what makes the hsa.

[Matt]

You're glad to hear that she's doing it. Yeah.

[Joel]

And it's just fun to hear from somebody who's 30 years down the road and is like, oh, yeah, it's all it's cracked up to be. Uh huh.

[Matt]

Yeah, totally. Okay, let's talk about like, the general mechanics of the health savings account. Because contrary to its name, the savings part, it's actually more of an investing account. But we believe that they are by far the stealthiest way to save for retirement because of the tax advantages that you accrue. They're not just tax advantage. You can literally like avoid taxes completely for the money that you put into an hsa. And then of course, in addition to that, not only are you just stashing those dollars away, but you are investing those dollars. This is how. This is a retirement account. You are not interrupting the compounding unnecessarily a la Charlie Munger.

[Joel]

Right.

[Matt]

Those HSA dollars get to, they, they get to live to grow another day. And what you're Doing is you're paying for your medical expenses out of pocket in order to keep those HSA dollars untouched.

[Joel]

And it's a really cool account if you used it like a health savings account, like as prescribed. Right. It's cool just in the sense that you can avoid a bunch of taxation, but it's super duper extra cool if you invest and you're like growing a stockpile of money that never gets taxed. Right. That completely avoids the tax, man. That's what makes it, like on steroids, superpower, supercharged. So let's talk about the specifics and the specifics of Abby's question. Will your HSA still benefit you in the same way once your kids grow up? That's kind of the heart of your question. And the answer is yes. The key, the clutch thing to know is essentially this, that the HSA eligibility is determined at the time the medical expense is incurred, not when you reimburse yourself. So it doesn't really matter, like, what's going on with your family life, how old you are, how far down the road. Let's say your kid is on your health insurance policy right now. Right. And the expense occurs in 2026. You can still tap your HSA 30 years later in 2056, after it's grown a ton. Right. And even if your child, then who is going to be a full grown adult, is not on your policy. So we're talking. I think she said her daughter was. Her child was 8 years old and so daughter would be 38 years old. Braces long gone. Super straight teeth, hopefully. Yeah.

[Matt]

Wear your retainer.

[Joel]

Yeah. I know some people are having to go back and do braces as an adult again to rectify for not wearing. I would wear my retainer every night just for that reason. Do you really? Yeah.

[Matt]

Oh, good for you.

[Joel]

Every night. I don't.

[Matt]

We don't do me sleepovers.

[Joel]

Although.

[Matt]

No, I knew that, like, when we've traveled together and.

[Joel]

Yeah.

[Matt]

It's just been a minute.

[Joel]

I keep it around.

[Matt]

I'm not taking too many mental notes of your.

[Joel]

Your retainer container, my hygiene. What do you call it?

[Matt]

Do you call it a retainer container?

[Joel]

Retainer box, I guess. Yeah. Never thought about it like that.

[Matt]

Me neither.

[Joel]

But really, this, it's. It's all about what. What was going on when the expense.

[Matt]

Was initially incurred initially.

[Joel]

It doesn't matter that your child is no longer on your insurance policy or that it's many decades later.

[Matt]

Yeah. It's not expected that she or any or either of your kids will be on your insurance. Like, like literally you could envision a future where you aren't even on a high, high deductible health care plan where you even have access to an hsa. Right. And so within the expenses that you incurred back when you did, would those qualify? Absolutely. 100, 100%, yes.

[Joel]

For sure. Yeah. You could be in a different employer, completely different insurance company and or be getting your own policy on the open market or something and you'd still, it wouldn't do anything about your past expenses. Those would still be, you could be.

[Matt]

On the single payer government plan that we're all set to be on at the rate that we're going wherever. Yeah. Like, yeah, regardless of what the future holds, it doesn't matter because it's, we're talking about what happened here in the past. It can never be revoked. It's not going to be deemed ineligible. But of course you're going to want to keep the receipts in order to prove eligibility. This is of course because if you were to get audited by the IRS down the road, you're going to want to have a trail of receipts. You're going to want to have tax returns to show first of all that your daughter was your dependent when the braces were put on, but also just to show improve the exact amounts of the expenses that you incurred. And I'm not talking about, you don't have to keep up with the literal receipts, but even just like digital receipts or even snapping a photo of it. I cannot imagine a future where you're going to where you would need to be able to literally show physical receipts as opposed to just having be organized about it, like have your Google Drive HSA receipt folder. And normally I would also say to keep a little spreadsheet where you've got the date, you know, in order to stay organized, you've got the date, you've got a little description of the medical procedure or the product or the medicine or whatever as well as the price. That way you have a running total and that. So you know, oh, this is how much I can completely tax free take out of my hsa. Yeah, I feel differently about that now, Joel. You know why?

[Joel]

Why?

[Matt]

Because of AI. This seems like such a perfect job to be able to upload a bunch of receipts and say, hey, keep track.

[Joel]

Of this for me.

[Matt]

Yes. Or just like you could do it once a year and just be like, hey, give me a total amount, give me data, columns of date, description, where it was incurred, total amount, give me a sum, also export that, create that as a Google sheet.

[Joel]

Unless the AI starts to blackmail you with your own health records, which is. You never know, man.

[Matt]

This is just saying this is a good use case for a large language model to be able to take care.

[Joel]

Of that for you. True. But I think what you're getting at too is really important. Not only are you keeping those receipts to prove to the IRS in the case that it's necessary, but you're also documenting all that stuff. So basically it's a good idea to keep track of the eligible healthcare procedures you've gone through so that you have a decent understanding of how much money you have access to tax free without violating the essence of the hsa. That's right.

[Matt]

It also makes sense too from like if I could picture a scenario where like 5, 10 years in the future, if you are trying to decide, oh, do I put more money into my HSA that I'm still eligible for, that I still have, or should I contribute more over here. And if you're looking at some of your medical expenses and you're. And you're incredibly healthy and actually the teeth, the teeth never needed braces to begin with. And if I could see a scenario where let's say you've got $40,000. 30, 30, 30, $40,000 in there and you've only incurred like 7,000 in medical expenses, I could see a scenario maybe where I would even kind of back off a little bit if I had some other financial goals. Right. It's just to be able to provide that data set for you so that you can make the most informed decision off in the future without getting a little too far over your skis.

[Joel]

Yeah, but if you don't have enough medical expenses. Right. That HSA down the road can turn into a glorified ira. And so yeah, look into know how.

[Matt]

Still tax advantaged, but you just have to pay one set of.

[Joel]

That's right. Instead of four. I think in some ways this helps make the friction and the cost of braces feel a little less onerous, even though it's still, it's so expensive. And I realize I've got two kids kind of on that in the orthodontia plan right now. What about the third?

[Matt]

You think he's going to be good?

[Joel]

No, he's totally going to need somebody. He's just like, he's only got like maybe three or four big kid teeth right now. But the two front ones, they are, I can already tell he's going to need them at some point. So yeah, it's expensive.

[Matt]

Oh, man makes me think of. So our school, every year we do an auction and items get donated. It's like a fundraiser or whatever. And I saw that a local orthodontist office donated like a $5,000 package, which.

[Joel]

That's like one kid to getting through braces. Oh, is it? Oh, yeah.

[Matt]

Is that like one year?

[Joel]

No, I mean, that's like.

[Matt]

Or that's like a whole. That's like a few years worth of fixing some teeth.

[Joel]

We basically prepaid. Yeah, yeah. There was like a deal to say, yeah, all right, we're gonna pay for the entirety of the next few years for this kid in one fell swoop. And it just seems.

[Matt]

I'm just saying I was putting that on your radar because if you can get in there, nobody. You know, what if you bid like 3, 400 bucks on it? Snag a $5,000 package? That's like a.

[Joel]

That'd be sweet.

[Matt]

That's a reduced. That's the kind of gift card that you're all about, right? Where you're getting $4,000 worth of food for $400.

[Joel]

That's my jam. That's my jam. All right, we've got more of your money questions to get to, including. We're gonna talk about financial infidelity. You can delve into that.

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[Matt]

Segregation in the day, integration at night.

[Narrator]

When segregation was the law, one mysterious black club owner had his own rules.

[Matt]

We didn't worry about what was going on outside. It was like stepping in another world.

[Narrator]

Inside Charlie's black And white people danced together. But not everyone was happy about it.

[Matt]

You saw the kkk. Yeah. They was dressed up in their uniform. The KKK set out to raid Charlie, take him away from here. Charlie was an example of power. They had to crush him.

[Narrator]

From Atlas Obscura, Rococo Punch and visit Myrtle beach comes Charlie's Place, a story that was nearly lost to time until now. Listen to Charlie's place on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

[Matt]

All right, buddy. We are back from the break. It is now time for the Facebook question of the week, which is from Tara. She writes, hello. I like that. I like that. She started with hello. My husband and I are expecting our first baby in June. I'd love to hear your financial tips for a growing family. We are in Money Gear 7 and have started a savings bucket for hospital bills. Holy cow. I love that.

[Joel]

On top of it already.

[Matt]

Yeah, I mean, aside from Money Gear 7, I guess. Let's talk about.

[Joel]

We're on a roll.

[Matt]

We're talking a lot about medical stuff, hospital bills and whatnot. But I love that you are already saving ahead for this, Tara. How big of a savings bucket or a sinking fund you're going to need is going to depend on your insurance, of course. But if you can figure out the likely bill amount ahead of time via a good faith estimate, you can start to aim to have that amount on hand. I'm guessing for a lot of folks it's probably around three grand. $3,000?

[Joel]

Yeah. So much depends on your insurance company.

[Matt]

But be ready to fight individual items on that bill if they're excessive. Sort of like we've already discussed. And depending on your income, you might qualify for partial or full forgiveness of that final bill. I kind of think maybe that's not the case though, considering the fact that she is in money gear number seven, which is such an advanced kind of place to be. I feel like when you're having your first, normally it's like first kid. Also, we need new tires on the car or, you know, the big sister has got orthodontia. You know, like all the things are hitting you when you're having a baby, but I love that they are in a position to where these aren't some of the stresses that they're experiencing.

[Joel]

The one reason that makes me think there's at least a chance that they qualify for financial assistance is because it's based on income. It's not based on net worth. So who knows? I guess she could. Maybe somebody started being Diligent at age.

[Matt]

16, built up that massive net. Yeah, massive net worth. And isn't making a ton now there's a chance.

[Joel]

Yep. So I think another thing to put on your radar is 529 plan. It's. It's not something we're typically recommending to new parents, but. Or at least beyond just a starter amount to get the clock ticking on those accounts. But you've already taken care of your own savings, right. You're investing incredibly well. Not sure what state you live in, but there's a good chance you can reduce your state tax bill while also investing for your baby's future. So that could be like a win, win thing right there. And so whether that 529 money is intended for private school, whether it's for college, whether it's for, you know, a Roth IRA starter for your baby down the road as well, which is one of the cool things right, about 529 plans these days, that you can turn money that you stick into that, that's not needed for college into Roth IRA dollars later on. Getting some money flowing in that direction, I think right now is something we'd strongly consider.

[Matt]

Totally. Yeah. And then beyond like specific accounts, man, I would give yourself permission to spend as much time with that baby as you want. Like when you are in a personal finance group chat or Facebook group and asking other folks, there's gonna be a whole lot of chatter about, yeah, this account. And obviously that's where your mind's at and obviously it's paid off well. Like, look at the fact that you're in Money Gear 7 and you're having your first kid, but the ability, and you've probably heard people say this, Joel, but it's your presence, not presents like toys and stuff and all the material wealth, the ability for you to provide just so many memories, being there for your kid and just like fun stuff that you do together as a, like it's, it's amazing experiences that you can be a part of, but then also just some of the routine day to day living where you are incredibly present and interacting in a just, life giving, very rich way, man. I think that's amazing, right, because as your kid gets older, they can, like money is fungible. They can get their own money. At some point they will be making their own money. But as far as memories, hopefully not.

[Joel]

For like, you know, a while, but.

[Matt]

Like that's, it's something that they can always create more of, whereas the time that they're going to be able to spend with you the memories that involve you in a significant way, that is a very limited resource. It's something I think about more as I get older too, where I'm just like, yeah, yeah, it's. I care less about my kids financial future as opposed to how I'm raising them and the lessons I'm imparting upon them and kind of the memories that. That's what we're trying to basically instill in them, those lessons.

[Joel]

What you're saying essentially is you're in Money Gear 7, act like it. Take advantage of some of the freedom and independence that you have earned over a long period of doing the right stuff. And I think that's spot on. I think it's really easy to think I got to do more, I can keep doing more. Okay, I got to work more so I can max out the 529 fund. Because that's the next thing Matt and Joel said. And yeah, we mentioned that. Right. But we also want to balance it out here and say you're in Money Gear 7. You have a lot of optional. So don't waste that, I guess, when these are precious times.

[Matt]

Totally agree.

[Joel]

All right, next question. This one comes from Anonymous who says, has anyone dealt with financial infidelity? Over the holidays, my wife racked up $6,000 in credit card debt. It was unknown to me until I started pressing more on how she was paying for all the packages coming to the house. It upsets me more because this is the second or third time it's happened since getting married. We're agreeing on no more everyday credit card usage and only using it when both in agreement to add. She is going through therapy and doing EMDR specifically right now. So at times she's not in the best headspace. That's kind of a type of therapy mat where like you're. It's attempting to bring up earlier childhood memories that my repressed Emily.

[Matt]

About that eye movement. Yeah. Something. Yeah, yeah.

[Joel]

Well, I think. I swear. Actually we.

[Matt]

The eyeball therapy we've had a guest.

[Joel]

On who's gone through that as well. Oh, really? Was it Ed Combs, who's a therapist who. Money therapist, who talked about that with us. But the end of this question says it's just frustrating to me because we literally just built our emergency fund and now we are $6,000 in credit card debt. The card is only in her name, by the way. I don't know what to do. I'm tired of paying off debt.

[Matt]

Man, this is. This is awful. Like, it totally sucks. And I feel like I hear the frustration in this individual's voice.

[Joel]

100%.

[Matt]

Yeah. It's a really tough position to be in. And I'm also just a little. I feel a little unsure to, like, provide advice when man, like, you're hearing one side of the argument, you know, because I'm sure there's a lot of other folks who might immediately be like, well, what about this? And have you done this? And does she. Does she have a voice? You know, I'm talking about the frustration in his voice. Like, does she have an ability to say where the money is being spent at all? And maybe she feels the need to kind of want to hide some of the spending? So I'm not at all discounting this poster's feelings and the point of frustration. Right. Like, yeah, he just established that emergency fund, and then to immediately get sort of not reset sound, you know, not.

[Joel]

Reset back to zero.

[Matt]

But even in the red is a difficult spot to be in.

[Joel]

It is. It is. I was actually truly impressed with the empathy, the advice that a lot of how to Money listeners offered in the Facebook group in answer to this question.

[Matt]

That's awesome.

[Joel]

I want to say addiction is real, too. Right. We should highlight that. And I think we're living in a society with a lot more addiction than we ever have lived in before. And I. I don't think that's hyperbole, and I don't think that's just me discounting the past. I think it's just true. And spending money triggers dopamine releases that are akin to a lot of other addictions that exist in our society, like gambling, pornography, stuff like that. So we're just seeing more and more people succumbing to addiction because it's easier than ever. I was talking to a friend recently, Matt, and he was like, you know, I don't think nearly as many people were addicted to pornography back in the day, because, guess what? It wasn't at your fingertips and free and, like, you know, everywhere in front of you. And I was like, you're probably right. Like, it just was harder to be addicted to something like that. Same with gambling.

[Matt]

You walked into the gas station, you're probably like, oh, I don't want anyone to see me. Like, is my car kind of tucked around the back where. Like, same thing with gambling. Right. Like going to an actual casino. There's something about. Yeah, like you said, physically going somewhere as opposed to something being in your pocket and at your fingertips.

[Joel]

Yes.

[Matt]

One of the ways. Yeah. That technology has not served us as well.

[Joel]

But I want to discount I guess the, the addiction reality that she might be going through and how she. There's like a compulsive behavior in all likelihood that she's dealing with.

[Matt]

Yeah. So I'm gonna. I wanna preface everything I'm about to say with the assumption that the wife is on board. Right. Cause I was kind of coming at it from like, man, we're talking about this couple. And the wife isn't present to be able to provide more information. But I'm gonna assume that she's like, yes, I don't want to do this anymore. I'm like, this is awful. This is harming us financially. Let's work together to make this happen.

[Joel]

Well, it sounds like they are agreeing on some things to her going to therapy, not using the credit card in the way it's been used to. So, yeah, it sounds like you're right.

[Matt]

I guess I thought that maybe that therapy was for something else as well. He didn't say it was specifically for the spending or the financial. But yeah, let's assume that that is the case and she's proactively taking steps and that means she's totally on board. Which means, like in my mind, then it comes more down to like the mechanics, like, how do we prevent you? How do we remove this temptation? How do we remove this addiction from you? And he talked about how it's these packages that are just continue to show up on the doorstep, like day after day after day. And he's just like, wait a minute, how, how. How are you paying for all of this? And I think what that means is removing billing information. So like Amazon, like it's all saved. And so the ability for me to search something and hit click to buy. Oh, they, like you said, like the technology, they've lubricated the, the process. And there is no friction at all in doing that. But what that also means, I think is removing the saved credit card information on your browser because the ability to just do the thumbprint and all of a sudden it's like. Or on your phone, double click to pay. That means removing the credit card information from Safari or whatever browser you use on the computer. It means removing credit cards from the phone that way. You're not able to do it that way. And then the step be like there are still ways around it, right? Like, what if she opens when she opens like another credit card and if she's willing, I think it also means locking down her credit. It means going into Equifax, Transunion, Experian, because if her not locked, I'M sorry.

[Joel]

Because that's the pay for service.

[Matt]

You don't want to lock it. You want to freeze it. Make sure that junk's frozen. Because if your credit is frozen, she cannot open.

[Joel]

Which is free by federal law.

[Matt]

It's totally free. Doesn't take very long at all to do that. And that prevents her access to new credit as well. And again, I prefaced all this with making sure that she's on board because I think I could see a twisted scenario where it's just like, nah, man. Like, that is so controlling. That is so demeaning for you to do that to me. I could hear her saying, yeah, he doesn't let me do anything. I can't buy anything. I have to do everything through him.

[Joel]

That's not a good situation if that's.

[Matt]

The situation you're in. Y' all need to go to counseling for sure. Not just financial counseling, but, like, there are deeper. There's deeper issues at hand. But if it's more about, oh, what steps do we need to take to make this harder or to make it impossible for me to spend? I think that that's a way to, you know, those are some proactive steps to take. Like, it makes me like, let's real quick, let's reverse the roles. Imagine this anonymous poster. What if he always got drunk and then drove somewhere? Like, let's say that he's gotten multiple DUIs and has crashed the car two or three times since you've been married, dude, what would you do? You would ask your wife to take the keys from you. It's just like, you know what? I can't drive anymore. Like, I obviously cannot control myself. Whatever it is my impulse.

[Joel]

But I don't always ride with a friend. Always take Uber.

[Matt]

Yeah, take Uber. Ride your butt. Like, there are so many other options. It's not. It's not infantilizing riding your bike, though.

[Joel]

He. It's probably not a good idea. Yeah.

[Matt]

Probably not that. Yeah, it's not in vandalizing. It's just empowering you to make sure that you're taking the proper steps. That's all.

[Joel]

Last thing, I think. And it. It kind of dovetails with what you're. What you're saying right now, I think is. Is to avoid shame in these conversations.

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It.

[Joel]

It can be so hard because her reckless spending has hurt you emotionally. It's harmed your finances. It sets you back after you've achieved some of the goals that you want, and it feels like you gotta go after them from square one again. But the more you make her feel ashamed of her past mistakes and things that I think it's going to help. The pattern is going to repeat. Right. Because shame is cyclical in that way. And so, yeah, even though it's tough to feel like you're working together on the same team because it feels like she's working against you, you guys are on the same team. So going to counseling together can be a helpful endeavor. I think for a lot of people in a relationship like this, it can feel like it's a. That's her problem. She's got to get over it. She's got to make a change for us to be okay. But working through it together with the help of a third party could save your marriage and it could save your finances. So financial therapists exist. We've had them on the show before. They might be kind of this perfect intersection of the help you need right now. But I guess I just want to encourage you. It's going to take some humility, some love, and some compassion to avoid heaping scorn and shame on your wife for this. But. But I would say that's a really important part of the solution.

[Matt]

All right. Did we avoid any potential landmines?

[Joel]

Hopefully we didn't screw it up.

[Matt]

Yeah, hopefully not. Something that's easier to talk about is the beer that you and I enjoyed during this episode, which was a cloak and dagger. This is a Vienna lager by Incendiary Brewing Company, donated to the show by Brandon. What'd you think of this beer, buddy?

[Joel]

Dude, this is a rare style that we almost never have.

[Matt]

The Vienna Lager.

[Joel]

I feel like maybe our friends at Halfway Crooks brew a good one of these.

[Matt]

Oh, yeah.

[Joel]

I haven't had in quite some time.

[Matt]

But it's more that traditional European style. It's old school. This isn't some new whiz bang beer style that's got cereal in it.

[Joel]

That's right. No, this is a beer style that's been around for hundreds and hundreds of years.

[Matt]

It's got original cereal in it. Like oats.

[Joel]

Yeah.

[Matt]

Malt.

[Joel]

Exactly. No Fruit Loops in here.

[Matt]

No, no, no. No artificial dyes in this beer.

[Joel]

This one, to me, it was, like, nice, rich caramel vibes. It was super well balanced. And it just made me be like, man, why? I do gravitate towards a certain. A couple of certain styles of beers that are. I typically think of as my favorites. But there's something just nice and approachable and delightful about this beer.

[Matt]

So refreshing. And not because it's, like, cold and wet and I'm thirsty. But just because it's not something that we've had a ton of and it's such a. Like, it's even in the name. Right. A Vienna Lager. It's not like. It's not like a Las Vegas Lager that, like, some brewer just, like, came up with. This is something that's been around for, like, thousands of years, right? Thousands, maybe.

[Joel]

You're probably right.

[Matt]

I don't know much about.

[Joel]

I mean, well, I guess beer history. That'd be in Austria. Beer really kind of. Well, beer didn't start in Germany, but German. When was it that the Germans were at the heyday of their brewing? I don't know.

[Matt]

We didn't know our beer 1500s. All I know is that there is. It's probably been around 1500. Yeah, 4, 500 years. There is a beer recipe that is found that was found in Egypt on hieroglyphs. Like on some sort of hieroglyphs or hieroglyphs. I don't know. How do you say it? Hieroglyphs. Hieroglyphics.

[Joel]

Hieroglyphics. Well, that was it. Dogfish Head. That kind of brought that one back.

[Matt]

And we had that beer like five years ago. I remember talking about it then.

[Joel]

Was it good?

[Matt]

I think so.

[Joel]

Okay. That was so long ago. I can't. I can't remember. And we've had so many beers since then. That's true. All right. Well, yeah, this was a fun one. Glad we got to have this beer. Thank you to Brandon for donating it our way. We really appreciate it. And by the way, if you have a money question, please do send it our way. We'd love to to take yours next week on the show, Matt. Until next time. Best friends out.

[Matt]

Best friends out. There's still construction minutes to do. This time it's hoping to be done. This is special agent Riegel, Special agent Bradley Hall.

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