Ask HTM - Work Provided Life Insurance, Compounding Returns with a 401k True-Up, & Selling a Home to an iBuyer (Bestie Ep) #1081

Summary

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Podcast Summary: How to Money

Episode Title: Ask HTM - Work Provided Life Insurance, Compounding Returns with a 401k True-Up, & Selling a Home to an iBuyer (Bestie Ep) #1081
Hosts: Joel & Matt
Release Date: December 29, 2025

Main Theme & Purpose

In this listener question–driven episode, Joel and Matt tackle a range of real-life personal finance dilemmas. The main focus revolves around smart decisions for home-selling (specifically to iBuyers), optimizing retirement contributions, evaluating the adequacy of workplace life insurance, and a meta-conversation about podcasting itself. The hosts break down jargon-free advice, giving actionable, thoughtful responses aimed at helping listeners handle their money more intentionally.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

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[07:13] Selling to an iBuyer — Pros and Cons

Listener Question (Rosemary from Texas):

Considering selling her home to an iBuyer (e.g., Opendoor) instead of going through a traditional real estate agent. What are the trade-offs?

What is an iBuyer?

• Large companies that instantly buy your house, then resell it.
• OpenDoor and OfferPad are major players; Zillow/Redfin exited after struggles.

Pros of Selling to an iBuyer:

• Speed & Convenience: Offers are immediate; skips showings, open houses, and dealing with buyers ([11:37] Joel: "They are the convenience play, the convenience pick.").
• Less hassle: No need for home staging, scheduling, or hidden clutter.

Cons of Selling to an iBuyer:

• Lower Offers: Usually net less money than with traditional agents. iBuyers are middlemen looking for profit ([10:12] Matt: "They literally bought high and sold low, which is the exact opposite of what you want to do, really with any investment.").
• Similar or Higher Fees: Service fees are often equivalent to, or higher than, realtors ([09:57] Joel: "You're going to get hit with the same fees, but with an inferior service.").
• Limited Market Availability: Not all homes/regions qualify; iBuyers thrive on uniformity, not uniqueness ([13:16] Matt: "They’re looking for uniformity…If you have a unique home…you might get severely lowballed.").
• No Open Market Competition: You sacrifice bidding wars where buyers can drive the price up.

Memorable Analogy:

• Joel: “A pawn shop will buy your stuff instantly too…but they're not going to pay you as much as you could get.” ([15:00])

Suggested Approach:

• It doesn't hurt to get an iBuyer quote as a data point—then consult an agent to see if the gap is worth the extra speed/convenience ([15:52] Joel: "Get a quote from both…Hiring an experienced agent…could net you thousands…if not tens of thousands more.").

Key Takeaway:

• Speed comes at a price; if you’re willing to do some legwork, you’ll almost always net more through traditional selling.

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[22:02] Work-Provided Life Insurance — Is It Enough?

Listener Question (Megan from Portland, OR):

Couple without kids, both 29, have employer life insurance at 1.5x salary. Should they buy additional term life now (while healthy) before they have children?

Hosts’ Evaluation Factors:

• Size of current benefits relative to debts (mortgage, etc).
• Income disparity between spouses.
• Recovery time after a loss—would survivor need extended time off?
• Existing savings.

Key Guidance:

• Term Life is the Way to Go: Shop on the open market for best rates. Avoid buying more through work—group rates are rarely better for healthy young people ([25:07] Joel: "Buying more through your workplace plan doesn't typically make more sense…shop on the open market.").
• Work Policies Are Not Portable: Lose coverage if you leave your job; individual term policies stay with you ([25:33] Matt: "Once you move on from that job, that thing's not coming with you.").
• Don't Rush, But Plan Ahead: Rates increase minimally between 20s and early 30s; it’s fine to wait a few years, even until after having kids. Main cost increase is after age 40 ([27:55] Matt: "Premiums…go up over time…But they don't adjust a ton…between your 20s to your 30s.").
• Figure Out Adequate Coverage: Should cover needs like paying off the mortgage, children's expenses, and living costs for survivor.
• Don’t Over-Insure: Balance with your current financial priorities.

Notable Quote:

• Matt: “It’s possible to over-insure. You don’t want to overdo it toward keeping you from achieving some of those other things you’re getting after.” [29:06]

Bottom Line:

• It’s not urgent to get more now, but revisit as soon as you have dependents or if your situation changes.

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[31:07] 401k True-Up and Compounding Returns

Listener Question (Gavin from Layton, UT):

Contributes to his 401k only once a year (from bonus), rather than per paycheck, leveraging the "true-up" feature so he still gets the employer match. Is he missing out on long-term compounding?

Key Points:

• True-Up Explained: Ensures you receive the full employer match at year-end if you make your contributions all at once, rather than spread out ([33:21] Matt: “If your employer's plan goes the true up path, like Gavin’s does, you'll be fine…”).
• Regular Contributions vs. Lump Sum: Contributing regularly gets money invested sooner, enabling more time for compounding—statistically, markets rise more often than not. Lump sum usually underperforms regular contributions, except in down years ([37:58] Matt: "The sooner that you can get your dollars invested…the better off you’re going to be.").
• Primary Importance: Don’t leave employer matching money on the table ([37:09] Joel: “As long as you’re getting the full match…when and how you do it is really less of a consideration…”).
• Bonus Taxation Myth: Bonuses are withheld at a higher rate for taxes but taxed as ordinary income when you file—what matters is your effective annual rate ([38:42] Joel: “Bonuses are not actually taxed at a higher rate…it gets sorted out at tax filing time.”).

Notable Quote:

• Joel: “If by waiting to invest either at the squeeze it in at the beginning or if you squeeze it in at the end of the year…you’re not leaving any dollars on the table.” [38:07]

Recommendation:

• Invest as soon as possible if you want to optimize. But with a true-up, you’re not losing employer money.

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[44:12] Build-to-Rent vs. Buying Investment Property

Listener Question (Keith from Oregon Coast):

As a builder with multiple ready-for-construction lots, is it smart to build homes to rent out versus using that money as a down payment for a multi-family property?

Why Keith Is Uniquely Qualified:

• Already owns land (paid-off)
• Utilities installed
• Is a builder (can construct below market cost)

Analysis:

• For Most People: Building from scratch is too complex/risky (permits, hidden costs, construction management). For Keith, these hurdles are minimized due to skills and property ([46:00] Matt: "If any of those details were different, our advice would likely be different as well.").
• Numbers Matter: Run thorough local projections—cost to build vs. rental income, neighborhood demand, vacancy rates.
• Consider Duplex/Triplex: Could combine the best of both approaches (live in one, rent others), maximizing income and flexibility ([48:44] Joel: "Hybrid approach, you build a duplex or a triplex, but you build a nice one.").
• Also Invest in Markets: Don’t neglect tax–advantaged retirement accounts for diversification and ease ([44:12] Matt).

Memorable Moment:

• Joel: "A neighbor…built a really nice duplex. He lived in one half and rented out the other…has been a moneymaker for him hand over fist for a whole lot of years." [48:44]

Bottom Line:

• For Keith, with skills/connections/land, it's a solid approach—so long as the math works and you do your due diligence.

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[52:25] How to Grow a Podcast Audience (Meta Q&A)

Listener Question (Doug from Philadelphia):

Has a hobby podcast about 80s movies and wants advice on building an audience without paying for “promotion” services.

Joel & Matt’s Podcasting Principles:

• Consistency is King: Release episodes on schedule, build “appointment listening.” ([55:05] Matt: "We’ve been consistent. One of the first things that we focused on was to be incredibly consistent…").
• Refine Content via Feedback: Adjust format/personality after listening to listener feedback ([57:34] Joel: "We try to listen from that feedback and make adjustments...").
• Quality Trumps Marketing: Don’t pay for downloads/followers—focus on building a genuinely great product ([58:19] Matt: "Don’t do that because a lot of those are scams...quality content wins the year.").
• Narrowcasting Is OK: Serving a niche audience is fine—great fans are more valuable than big but passive ones ([59:04] Matt: "You’re probably narrow casting…It just means you’ll have fewer, but more rabid listeners.").
• Word of Mouth Matters: Especially in niche shows—let passionate fans spread the word ([63:32] Joel).
• Sustainability: Make sure it’s fun for you—otherwise you’ll burn out ([64:23] Joel: "Make sure it’s something you want to replicate, you want to keep doing.").
• Monetization: If desired, Patreon/Buy Me a Coffee can help, but focus on core value first.

Memorable Quotes:

• Joel: “Would I show up to a lecture hall if 2,000 people wanted to listen to me talk about 80s movies? Heck yeah, I would.” [61:10]
• Matt: “Marketing wins the day, but quality content wins the year.” [63:28]

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On iBuyers:
  “A pawn shop will buy your stuff instantly too. But they're not going to pay you as much as you could get.”
  — Joel ([15:00])

• On Over-Insuring:
  “It’s possible to over-insure. You don’t want to overdo it toward keeping you from achieving some of those other things you’re getting after.”
  — Matt ([29:06])

• On True-Up and 401k:
  “As long as you’re getting the full match…when and how you do it is really less of a consideration…”
  — Joel ([37:09])

• On Podcasting:
  “Marketing wins the day, but quality content wins the year.”
  — Matt ([63:28])

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Important Timestamps

• 07:13 - iBuyer explained and the home sale dilemma
• 22:02 - Life insurance adequacy & when to buy term
• 31:07 - 401k true-up and compounding returns
• 44:12 - Build-to-rent investment analysis
• 52:25 - Growing a podcast (content, not marketing, is key)

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Tone & Style

• Inviting, fun, and filled with friendly banter between Joel and Matt. Their conversational, supportive tone makes complex financial subjects accessible and engaging, laced with real-life analogies and the occasional beer geek aside.

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Conclusion

This episode is a grab bag of actionable financial advice with a side of real-life strategy and warmth. Whether you’re considering selling your home quickly, figuring out if your benefits are enough, fine-tuning your investing habits, or even starting a creative project like a podcast, Joel and Matt offer grounded guidance—reminding their audience to be intentional and enjoy their journey to “living a rich life.”

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Transcript

[Podcast Advertiser/Host Intro]

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[Joel]

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[Matt]

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[Matt]

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[Doug]

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[Rob Gronkowski]

This is Rob Gronkowski from Dudes on Dudes with Gronk and jules. For the second season in a row, I partnered with T Mobile's Friday night 5G lights, powering up hometown football across America. This year, T mobile invested over $4 million in prizes to help schools take their Friday nights to to the next level. Now it's time to crown our $1 million grand prize winner. A huge congrats to Derrick's High school in Derrick's, Arkansas, home of the Outlaws and your 2020 5T mobile Friday night 5G lights champion. They scored a home field upgrade, Gronk Fitness weight room, a 2026 tailgate party and and an all expense paid trip to the SEC championship game. To every school that competed, posted and rallied your communities, thank you and a big thanks to T Mobile for making it all possible and helping communities shine under the Friday night lights. This season may be over, but the story isn't. Stay tuned for season three in 2026.

[Podcast Advertiser/Host Intro]

This is Sophie Cunningham from Show Me Something. Do you know the symptoms of moderate to severe obstructive sleep apnea or OSA in adults with obesity? They may be happening to you without you knowing. If anyone has ever said you snore loudly, or if you spend your days fighting off excessive tiredness, irritability and concentration issues, it may be due to osa. OSA is a serious condition where your airway partially or completely collapses during sleep, which may cause breathing interruptions and oxygen deprivation. Learn more at don't sleep on OSA.com this information is provided by Lilly A medicine company.

[Joel]

Welcome to how to Money. I'm Joel.

[Matt]

And I am Matt.

[Joel]

And today we are answering your listener question.

[Matt]

That's right, buddy. This is a Listener Questions Monday episode that we've got lined up for you. We hope everybody out there had a wonderful weekend, but we've got five awesome questions to get to. Listener is wondering if the work provided life insurance that her and her husband receive. If that's going to be enough, we're going to talk about that. Another listener is he's got a 401k true up option. That's something that is offered. But he wants to know if this actually means that he's not leaving money on the table.

[Joel]

Not tune up but true up. True up, which we'll get into. Did I say true up or no? No, you said true up. But I know people might hear that and they're like, I don't even know what that is. We'll talk about that.

[Matt]

And then another listener, she is selling her house or she wants to and she's wondering if she should go the take the ibuyer route. So we've got that question plus a couple others on today's episode.

[Joel]

All right, before we get to that, Matt, I wanted to quickly mentioned, have you heard of EU261? It's a law in the United States.

[Matt]

Is that the new COVID variant? That's what it sounds like.

[Joel]

No, although I can see why you say that.

[Matt]

No, but there's BA2 60.

[Joel]

And so this is a law in Europe that basically says that you get paid if a flight is delayed or canceled and by a certain amount of time. So there's different rules about.

[Matt]

It's got that Euro European feel to it.

[Joel]

Eu, okay, exactly. And so there were a couple people in my life recently who mentioned flight cancellations on a trip to or from Europe or at least a substantial delay. And I was like, hey, you might want to check this out and file a claim with the airline because you might be entitled to compensation. And you're like, oh yeah, what, 20, 30 bucks? And it's like, no, no, no. Hundreds and hundreds and hundreds of dollars. So this is one of those things that a lot of people don't know about. And by the way, the statute of limitations is like years long for some of these. So if you're like, man, two years back I got screwed on this flight. And it doesn't have to be in inter European flight.

[Matt]

It can be a flight to and from.

[Joel]

Yeah, exactly. So look at the details.

[Matt]

So if you fancy like that like all of Joel's friends are make sure.

[Joel]

To jet setting for Paris and all the likes. Right?

[Matt]

But folks are just talking about bicycling from point A to point B to the grocery store.

[Joel]

Right? We'll put, we'll put a link to an article that tells, like, helps you understand how to get compensation for EU261 if you had a substantial delay or a cancellation. But it's kind of cool. Like my sister did this a few years ago. She actually got paid more in the compensation than the flight cost her because she got such a dirt cheap deal. So it's yeah, it's pretty sweet.

[Matt]

They pay actual replacement cost, not depreciated cost of that ticket. And we've talked about how these are. There are similar benefits that credit cards offer but of course you have to know about that and have used the right credit card or b even have the credit card. So this kind of sidesteps all of that does not come down to payment. Even if the European law, even if.

[Joel]

You did, you could double dip essentially. And that's the real credit card and EU 261 because they're separate.

[Matt]

Yes, it makes makes sense that you should be able to.

[Joel]

That is one of those things where it would not be cheap. I think it'd be frugal to to take advantage of the credit card benefit, the trip cancellation insurance, but also under your your legal right as a someone taking a trip to or from Europe like get the money. Oh and by the way, Matt, I don't think we've mentioned this yet. We're going to have a listener hang here in Atlanta in our boy home city this coming Friday.

[Matt]

We teased to it. Was it last week or a couple of weeks ago?

[Joel]

Yeah.

[Matt]

But it's official. This is the official announcement.

[Joel]

Yeah. So if you live locally and you want to see our ugly mugs drink beer together, please come out to Inner Voice Brewing. We'll be there from 4 to 8pm.

[Matt]

Let'S incentivize folks as well. We'll have a few pairs of our how to Money socks on hand.

[Joel]

Sure. Yeah. Might even buy you a beer. We'll see. But yeah, we hope to see you there at Inner Voice how to Money Hang. Meet your fellow listener this Friday from 4 to 8.

[Matt]

All right. Let's introduce the beer that you and I are going to enjoy today. This is a brew by Common Space. It's called Chubby Unicorn. And we will give our thoughts on this Guava Milkshake IPA at the end of the episode.

[Joel]

That's right. But let's get to the subject of handmap. We're answering listener questions. We got a good slate of them today on the show. And if you have a question, we would love to hear from you. It takes all of three minutes to think of your question, to talk it into your phone, into that Voice Memo app, and then to send it our way. You can find the specific instructions for how to do [e-mail] ask can't wait to hear from you. And this listener wants to know whether or not they should sell their home to an entity instead of a human.

[Podcast Advertiser/Host Intro]

Hello, my name is Rosemary and I currently live in central Texas. We were moving due to my husband's job. After much deliberation and against common wisdom, we have decided to sell our home, which we have only owned for two years. What are the pros and cons of selling your home to an ibuyer, such as open door versus going through a traditional real estate agency? When might you choose one option over the other? Thank you.

[Matt]

All right, let's kick this thing off. Rosemary, thank you so much for your question. And by the way, congrats on the new, new job there for your husband. I hope it's just a fantastic opportunity as well as a promotion. Right. Hopefully you are, y' all are earning more. But I'm also hoping too that you get to move somewhere great. Right?

[Joel]

Yeah. I mean, Texas is great, but this is great. I mean, if you're, if you're wanting to move on from Texas, where would you hope to be going? I don't know. I mean, Atlanta, Georgia, baby. Yeah, I mean, probably right.

[Matt]

Water's just fine.

[Joel]

Pretty great here.

[Matt]

But you're talking about selling your house. And lucky for you, even after owning that house for just a couple years, it's likely that you're still going to come out ahead.

[Joel]

Right.

[Matt]

In a normal time period, that could really come back and kind of bite you. But just given the lack of supply, given the soaring prices that we've seen since you made that purchase, I'm pretty sure that you're probably still going to be doing okay. Yeah, obviously it comes down to your personal situation here, but at least it's not like, let's say it was 0607 that you made the purchase. And then if you're looking to sell two years after that, that would put you in a pretty painful position.

[Joel]

It'd be called taking a bath. Right?

[Matt]

For sure.

[Joel]

And so, yeah, definitely fortunate for Rosemary that even despite, despite those transaction costs that are so heavy involved in buying and selling and taking out a mortgage and all that stuff, it would typically mean that you would lose money over such a short term ownership cycle. But that's not going to happen to you, Rosemary. But let's talk about ibuyers. And first, what is an ibuyer? Maybe let's define the terms. Well, simply put, they're, they're big companies that are willing to instantly, and that's what the I stands for, by the way, in ibuyers. They, they will instantly buy your house from you in order to turn around and sell it themselves on the open market. Open door and offer pad, they are two of the largest players out there. There, you mentioned, you mentioned Open Door, Rosemary, in your question. But Zillow and Redfin, they. They had a large percentage of the market before they ended their iBuying programs. And basically they had a tough time buying homes at scale. Right. And during the pandemic, when there was a lot of money sloshing around, they were overpaying for houses. They literally bought high and sold low, which is the exact opposite of what you want to do, really with any investment. Right. And so since then, iBuying has kind of wised up. So you're really, you're much less inclined to get an amazing offer today. Two, three years ago, you might have seen Zillow give you more money than you would have gotten if you put it on the open market purely because.

[Matt]

Of the novelty of it, because it was a new thing. It hadn't necessarily been proven. They were still trying to figure things out.

[Joel]

They're trying to establish market share. And so they're like, hey, cool. And they, I guess they didn't really, they hadn't done their due diligence. They hadn't figured out what it took to buy and sell homes effectively without losing money. And then they realized, wait a second, it's actually gonna be really hard to pull this off.

[Matt]

Yeah, there's a lot of factors that go into account, you know, like how do you account for the incessant barking dog that's next door? If you, if you're just looking at pictures, which is how a lot of the ibuyers do it, it's oftentimes sight unseen. But the future of the just ibuying industry is uncertain. It seems like that they're kind of building the. While they're flying it. I really like the idea of ibuyers, but the reality just has played out a little differently. It sounds really good, but the end result isn't necessarily awesome. And that's largely because they are acting as another middleman who's looking to get paid. So that means that the offer that you're likely going to receive, it's going to be typically lower than what you would get with a traditional listing. They are looking for their piece of the pie. They're looking for their cut. Some folks might think that selling via an ibuyer is actually going to reduce fees, which is going to maybe make the offer more competitive in reality. Like, why not go digital, right? That is not the case because the fees can be similar if not more than the fees that a typical realtor would charge. And so why would you go with an option where you're essentially going to get hit with the same fees, but with us with an inferior service, Right? Like with, at least with a realtor, you've got somebody like a real person. It feels like a customized, bespoke, tailored care that you're receiving. But with ibuyer, man, that seems like the path to take if you're not looking for service, right? Like, I mean, just ibuyer, even in the name right Itself, like, it makes me think of iRobot or whatever the movie and it's, you know, robots and stuff.

[Joel]

Well, you said service, but most people, when they're looking there to sell B and ibuyer, they're not looking for service, they're looking to sell it immediately. Right? They don't care about, like whether someone's going to hold their hand and walk them through the details and help them get their house in order so they can get top dollar. They want to be done. They want the transaction over completed, they want their cash, right? And so that is what ibuyers do. Well, they are the convenience play the convenience pick. But we're talking to one of the other big downsides of using an iBuyer is that you're asking single entity to make an offer for your house. You're skipping the open market, right? And the competition that's generated when a home is publicly listed, when it's put on the mls, that's when everybody and their sister sees your listing on Zillow and says, oh, that's a cute one on a cute street. I think I want to go take a look at that. When you sell directly to an ibuyer, you miss those eyeballs and you miss the potential interest from people you know. And even though obviously home buyers, they're not lined up the sidewalk to see a house like they were back in 2021, early 2022. Still, just a few competing offers, right, Is all you really need to ensure that you're getting the absolute best price. Having at least two or three interested parties looking at the house, making offers on the home is going to ensure that you're getting what it's actually worth on the market. You don't get that with an iBuyer. You're getting literally just the one offer.

[Matt]

And you got one buyer.

[Joel]

That doesn't help you. That doesn't help, you know, whether or not that is what the house would actually go for if you were to put it up for sale. Plus, not all homes qualify because ibuyers aren't available in all markets. They're available kind of more in the southern United States, less in the northern regions. So, yeah, they are in Texas, but they might not be where a lot of our other listeners who listen, Matt, where. Where they are.

[Matt]

It depends on the property, too, because I think oftentimes they're looking for uniformity because that's how they're able to easily, from a digital standpoint, determine the value of a home. And if you have a piece of property that's on a lot of land or that's. That's a really unique home, either A, may not be eligible to be purchased by an ibuyer, or B, you might get severely lowballed because they're not really taking that into account as much as some of the other things that a lot of folks are looking for.

[Joel]

If yours has like a water slide from the second story down to the pool and you got like a grotto.

[Matt]

Or something, you might get disqualified.

[Joel]

I don't know. They might not even want to play with you.

[Matt]

But like you said, folks who are wanting basically, like cash now, which is a part of why we don't like this whole, like the ibuyer industry or sort of that mentality, is it seems like almost like a desperate ploy to unloading your house quickly, which isn't how you should be approaching selling your home. But yeah, the speed at which you can sell your house, how it's streamlined, that's certainly one of the advantages to going with an ibuyer, but it's also just going to be so much easier. Right? Because like, maybe some folks actually, like, they do have the time. Right. It's not about how quickly they can do it. They actually have the time, but they just don't want to deal with the hassle of it. They don't want to put up with the headaches of scheduling appointments, of hiding all of their personal stuff so that potential buyers can envision their own stuff there in the house. It's the easy button. But you are paying a price for this convenience. And, you know, we hope for your bottom line that you are able to take the time to actually do some of these things, to do the legwork. There are meaningful dollars on the line and we. Until the industry gets maybe more competitive or more efficient to where the ibuyers are taking less of a cut, we're not really in favor of going the taking the ibuyer out.

[Joel]

Sure, yeah. I mean, a pawn shop will buy your stuff instantly too. And they're not good, but they're not going to pay you as much as you could get.

[Matt]

Exactly.

[Joel]

Typically, if you list it yourself on Facebook Marketplace, or if you sell it on ebay, there are all sorts of ways where you can, you know, sell that an asset that you have on a shorter, truncated timetable. But typically, that means you're going to make less money for it.

[Matt]

It does feel like the pawn shop of Realtors. Like. Like, I think maybe that's the slight neg connotation. Again, not that pawn shops are.

[Joel]

They serve a purpose.

[Matt]

They're a legit business. And the ability to go in there and, man, I don't have the time. I just need to unload some stuff. And in order to have some cash on hand, it serves both parties well. But who stands to make a profit? The person that's there in the middle. And that's what ibuyer's looking to do.

[Joel]

Yeah, I mean, we've all seen Pawn Stars. We know what happens there. Okay.

[Matt]

I actually haven't seen Pawn Stars.

[Joel]

Oh, really? You've never seen one episode of it?

[Matt]

I don't think so. I mean, I understand the premise.

[Joel]

Next you're gonna tell me you never saw one episode of Orange County Choppers or whatever that was.

[Matt]

Oh, I know. I definitely don't.

[Doug]

Okay.

[Joel]

Yeah.

[Matt]

They're always fighting, throwing stuff at each other.

[Joel]

Those are, like, two of the most popular reality TV shows of all time. That and, like, Deadliest Catch. Right. But I think in summation, Rosemary, we would say that it can't. It can't hurt to get a quote From Opendoor, from OfferPad to see if they're in the ballpark. But get a quote from both. Right? And you might get a solid offer, you know, with just a few clicks. But hiring an experienced agent who knows the ins and outs of your neighborhood could net you thousands of dollars more, if not tens of thousands of dollars more. And putting in some of that work up front, whether it's, you know, taking out some ugly wallpaper and painting a neutral color or something like that, all those sorts of things that an agent is going to give you the tips on. Hey, spending a few thousand here could mean many more thousands, right. When it comes to putting your home on the market and getting those offers. So I would talk to an agent once you have those offers in hand from the ibuyers, and say, hey, how much more can we get? Like, and if it's not worth the hassle to make an extra couple grand, then you take the ibuyer offer. But if you say, actually the agent thinks we can get 15 to 20 grand more, it's worth the extra time, the, the extra effort. It doesn't hurt to at least bark up that high buyer tree, but in all likelihood, you're going to do better going the traditional route.

[Matt]

Totally agree. Yeah, it can be a great data point essentially, to help you to decide what it is that you should be doing moving forward. And, you know, given the, the criticism that we have presented on the podcast about Realtors and the fees that they present, or the fee. The fees that they charge, I think a lot of folks might be thinking, oh, man, I'm surprised that Matt and Joel aren't down with ibuyers because it seems like it kind of automates things that kind of. It's a more efficient marketplace. But it's not really like that's the problem is that you're beholden to a single buyer. If it was more like a sophisticated marketplace where buyers are being put directly in touch with sellers and you are able to automate a lot of the stuff there in the middle to where there's not necessarily a middleman. A middleman there in the, like taking a cut, as opposed to just software that's kind of running in the background. That sounds more attractive to me. I'm more hopeful for that. As opposed to just another player that's in between you and your money.

[Joel]

We're not talking about widgets here. We're not talking about tennis shoes, we're not talking about T shirts. This is a complex market, the market of real estate. And it varies from street to street. And like you said, Matt, a kid, a dog barking across the street, a troublesome house that's right next door, well, that can make all the difference in what you're getting and what buyers see and what they're willing to offer. And so I just don't know if ibuyers are ever going to be able to compete in a hyper customized business like real estate. But we've got more questions to get to, including one about tossing bonus money into a retirement account. Does that make sense and will it help him avoid more tax? We'll get to that and more right after this.

[Matt]

If you've ever hired for your small business, you know how important it is to find the right person. That's why LinkedIn Jobs is stepping things up with their new AI assistant. So you can feel confident that you are finding top talent that you can't find anywhere else. The best part is those great candidates are already on LinkedIn. In fact, employees hired through LinkedIn are 30% more likely to stick around for at least a year compared to those hired through the leading competitor. That's a big deal whenever you hire counts.

[Joel]

It's crucial to the success of your business to hire the right person for your business. And it doesn't have to be complicated. With LinkedIn Jobs AI Assistant, you can skip the confusing steps and recruiting jargon. It filters through applicants based on criteria you've set for your role and surfaces only the best matches so you're not stuck sorting through a mountain of resumes. When you have a business to run, you don't have hours to spend on hiring.

[Matt]

That's right. Hire right the first time. Post your job for free at LinkedIn.com howtomoney Then promote it to use LinkedIn Jobs new AI assistant, making it easier and faster to find top candidates. That's LinkedIn.com howtomoney to post your job for free. Terms and conditions apply. This message is sponsored by Navy Federal Credit Union. As the holiday season rolls around, Navy Federal knows that you strive to do everything you can to bring cheer and joy to your loved ones. And as a credit union dedicated to serving all veterans, active duty and their families, they understand that every little bit counts.

[Joel]

That's why for a limited time, you could earn a $250 $50 cash bonus when you spend $2,500 with Navy Federal's cash rewards and cash rewards plus cards in the first 90 days. But the giving doesn't stop there. You could also earn up to 2% unlimited cash back with these cards. So saving up for whatever the season brings just got a little easier.

[Matt]

Give joy, get joy. Join now@navy federal.org @navy federal Credit Union, the members are the mission. Navy Federal is insured by NCUA. Visit Navy federal.org cashrewards for details. Cash back terms and conditions apply. Offer ends January 1, 2026. Hey y', all, it's Joel and Matt from how to Money. Joel, you were just out in Seattle recently, weren't you?

[Joel]

Yeah man, it was amazing. I went for one of the most glorious runs of my life along the waterfront. It had everything you could ask for. Crisp air, mountain views, fairies gliding across the water.

[Matt]

Beautiful. I love it man. Yeah, for us, our road trip through Charlottesville was a highlight. We actually splurged on a custom built Airbnb and it was well worth it. The house had these unique touches like a poured concrete counter there in the kitchen with a built in drying rack. Super functional. It even inspired some ideas for our house.

[Joel]

Plus, with a Kitchen like that, you save money eating out.

[Matt]

Yes, exactly. That's what struck me. What seems normal to a homeowner. It can be the thing that makes a guest trip really special.

[Joel]

Which is why hosting makes sense, right? Travelers are looking for those authentic, memorable spaces. And if you don't have time to manage all that well, Airbnb's co host feature makes it easy. A local co host can help with everything from creating the listing to keeping your place running smooth.

[Matt]

Yeah. So while you are off making your travel memories, your home could be helping someone else make theirs. Find a co [e-mail] host. We are back, and we will get to that 401k question here in a minute. But first, let's hear from a listener who is actually. She heard us answer a question and now she's got another question. It's a question of a question.

[Joel]

Piggyback off of a question.

[Matt]

We'll get to that one right now.

[Podcast Advertiser/Host Intro]

Hi, Matt and Joel. My name is Megan and I'm a longtime listener of the podcast from Portland, Oregon. Recently, when listening to one of the Ask how to Money episodes, you were answering a listener question about term versus whole life insurance. And it got me thinking about something that I'd love to get your advice on. Currently, my husband and I are both 29 and working full time with no kids. We both have insurance built into our work benefits where we would get 1.5 times our income upon death of either of us. We have a healthy savings account and no debt besides our mortgage. And since we don't have any dependents, we have always thought this would be sufficient in the unlikely event that we'd need it. However, we do plan to start a family in the next few years and are wondering, should we go ahead and establish term life insurance now since we're younger and healthy, in case something were to happen so that we can ensure that we get it for a good price, knowing that we'll eventually need it. Thanks so much for your thoughts and love listening to the podcast.

[Joel]

All right, Matt, speaking of efficient markets, life insurance is a much more efficient.

[Matt]

Market than real estate. Oh, I thought you're gonna say universal whole life. Oh, oh, yeah, yeah. There's a lot more. You know, all the. Actuary. Actuary. Exactly.

[Joel]

Actuarial, tables, actuaries, actuarial. There's more standardization. You can shop for it with multiple providers online in a simple setting. And so we're big fans of term life, by the way, in case you didn't know. If you're like, I think I need Some life insurance. Term life is the way to go. We'll actually put a link to an article I wrote about that on the website in the show notes. But before we tackle this new term life policy, let's talk about work provided life insurance policies for just a second. Because a lot of folks, they might be thinking that, well, one, one and a half times your income, that's plenty. Right. If something happens to either of you, and the truth is it might be, but it does depend on the specific details. Right. It sounds like you've both done a good job thinking through the particulars, which is great. But for others who might be in a similar boat, consider what your debt obligation is as a couple. If one of you dies, would the other be able to continue to pay the mortgage? Let's say you make substantially less. You're a teacher and the other one's a software. The other person is a software engineer. That changes the dynamics. Right. If it's split 50, 50, it's like a kind of a simpler dynamic to think about. And I know there's obviously a lot of emotions involved in this. This can be kind of like a morbid exercise. But would you be able to get back to work after a couple weeks, or do you think you need more months to mourn your loss? Sometimes we don't know that. Right. Until we go through it. So it's the kind of thing that's unlikely to happen, but it's worth envisioning so that you're properly prepared so that you can feel comfortable that you have enough insurance in the case of that worst event happening.

[Matt]

Yeah. And it depends on just some of the different personal finance goals that you might have as well, because I think when you, like earlier on in your careers, you may not have a ton of expendable additional income where you might say, well, it wouldn't hurt to go ahead and get an additional policy, but if one is being provided for you at work, and if that's enough, then of course, why spend the additional money every single month for a policy that you don't necessarily need? If you've thought through some of these, some of those questions that Joel just.

[Joel]

Answered in that workplace policy, typically it is 1x or 11 1/2x your income that's given as a free perk. Buying more through your workplace plan doesn't typically make more sense because especially if you're healthy and 29 years old, you're going to be able to get a much better deal shopping the open market. So I wouldn't necessarily add to it at work. I would. If you do end up believing or realizing that you need more, you're going to want to shop on the open market as opposed to, you know, going through that workplace plan. Yeah.

[Matt]

But with that being a perk that your employer might offer. Totally take. Take advantage of that thing, but get the free stuff. Keep in mind, though, that it's workplace provided some employer. Employer provide a perk. So once you were to move on from that job, that's. That thing's not going to be coming with you, which is the opposite. Of course, if you get your own individual term life policy, that's good for, you know, no matter who it is that you work for. But, yeah, important things to think through. And this is. And this is coming too, from a guy that got term life before we had kids. Like, this is something that we did because we kind of thought through some of those. Some of those different things. And Kate, she was. She just has, like, I guess, a lower risk tolerance level. And she was thinking, man, okay. I guess early on, it became clear that I was becoming more of the main breadwinner and we had purchased a home. We hadn't had kids yet, but we did have a house. And I think it was about two years after we had that house that we had this discussion. And she was thinking, man, I would still love to be able to stay in this house were you to die. I don't know if I would be able to be able to afford the mortgage. And so that's literally something that we went ahead and did that was like a solid two years, I think, before we even had kids. And so for us, it was more of a peace of mind, a way to mitigate risk, even though it was gonna be highly unlikely that that was gonna happen.

[Joel]

But every young couple who doesn't have kids in their 20s or whatever is gonna have different things to think through. Right. They might not own a home, but they might live.

[Matt]

Exactly.

[Joel]

They might live in an Airstream and say, listen, our costs are really low, and so the one X is plenty. Right. That's. That's more than enough. Yeah.

[Matt]

Or maybe you've got fate like a ton. A ton of family that are fairly well off, and they've got basements and additional rooms or wings of the house that you can live in. These are all things to consider as you are trying to. Trying to decide if you should go ahead and go out on your own and kind of get your own policy. But that being said, like, you don't need to be in a rush to Go out there and secure your own term life policy. Like this is something that I would maybe put on your like medium term financial to do list, but not something that needs to happen right away because you're asking about getting a policy early on while you're young before it gets really expensive. Well, premiums, they go up over time as you get older. Yes. But they don't adjust a ton at all. From your 20s to your 30s, you might end up literally paying just a few extra dollars every single month, but you'll also be covered for a few extra years on the tail end, which are the most expensive years to be insured for.

[Joel]

More important years.

[Matt]

Yes, absolutely. So you're kind of rolling the dice here in one sense, right? Like you're hoping that there's not going to be like a medical catastrophe that's going to change those dynamics. But I think it's totally fine to wait two or three more years, even waiting until you have kids before getting out there and getting your own additional policy. Like literally it depends where you look it up. But, but I saw one table and it showed that between the ages 25 and 35, you are literally only paying $2 more. $2, $24 a year by waiting a decade, a decade of not paying for paying annual premiums on a policy that you are unlikely going to need.

[Joel]

Especially in these early years when you're like I'm just trying to max out a Roth IRA or just trying to get the match on my 401k. You could maybe take cut back from your investing to have more insurance. But these are the kind of hard decisions that people in their 20s have to make. I still remember Matt, people being told by really smart people, hey, you need more term life insurance. And I was like, but I, I'm just trying to become, you know, financially independent and I feel like I need to sock more money into investments and that yeah, I get the value in that insurance, but I think I can wait a couple more years. And, and so that might be the case here too.

[Matt]

Possible to over insure. You don't want to, you don't want to overdo it towards keeping you from achieving some of those other things that you're getting after.

[Joel]

Right. So those are the trade offs. Like everything comes with a trade off. Right. Like that's, that's the reality behind everything in personal finance. And so in a couple of years you'll probably want to grab a 30 year term policy. Megan. But shop around. Like when you get to that point, policy genius is one of our Favorite spots to get quotes. Costco members should also get quotes there too. And the reason you only need a policy, by the way, for three decades instead of for life, instead of getting like a whole life policy, is because we're hoping that the need for life insurance is going to evaporate by the time the kids that you're planning on having, the theoretical kids, by the time they're grown. Right. And that you've been saving and investing for such a long stretch that at that point in time you don't need the coverage. You could pay a bunch more. You could get life insurance for the rest of your years, but you'd be better off with the term policy and the much smaller premiums that accompany it, which would allow you to funnel even more money towards better financial goals, like investing even more.

[Matt]

It's a virtuous cycle.

[Joel]

Yeah.

[Matt]

As far as like your kids being out of the house, like that gives you a solid 12 years to have like multiple failures to launch in order for this to get, for those kids to get out of there before, you know, obviously they're no longer dependent on you.

[Joel]

Yeah. So really it's not like an easy slam dunk decision. But if you think through all those things and you say, wait a second, kind of like Matt and Kate, I feel like we need a little bit extra coverage. And really it's not that expensive and we're meeting all of our other, our other financial goals anyway, so let's go ahead and make the purchase. It's really only going to be $19 a month or something like that. But then again, you might say no, no, that would keep us from being able to achieve this, this and this. And so actually we're going to hold off for a couple more years. I think you could really make a pretty good argument either way.

[Matt]

Yeah. But bottom line, know that it does not get significantly more expensive. Hardly at all. Like really, it really starts ticking up once you hit 40. But hey, let's get to our next question. This is from a listener who, bottom line, is wanting to make sure that he's not leaving money, retirement dollars on the table at the end of the year via his 401k.

[Joel]

Let's hear it.

[Gavin]

Hi, Matt and Joel. My name is Gavin and I'm from Layton, Utah. I am a recent newcomer to the how to money family and I've been listening for about a month now. And I love the simplicity that you guys bring to the complex world of finances. I am 34 years old and have four children and I work in a sales role for a construction company. For my role, I qualify for an annual bonus. We are paid weekly and the company offers a 401k match in order to maximize my weekly take home pay for day to day expenses. I've been making no contributions to my 401k weekly, but will calculate to take enough out of my bonus to make sure that for the year I've contributed enough of a percentage to get the match. Also, I did confirm that my company does a true up an extra benefit that I've seen to do this. Is that because I'm contributing to my 401k and the funds come out pre tax, my taxable amount, which being a bonus is taxed at a higher percent is less. So I'm saving a good amount on my bonus taxes by doing this. My question is by only contributing one time per year, am I losing the long term benefits of compounding interest in my 401k? Thank you guys. Have a great day.

[Joel]

Matt, I love that Gavin said the how to money family.

[Matt]

Honestly, like it is like a family, isn't it?

[Joel]

I feel that in our Facebook group we've got 10,700 members something like that now. And people are always addressing each other in these like terms of affection, which is so sweet. And does everybody refer to each other.

[Matt]

As brother and sister?

[Joel]

That might get a little creepy, right? But maybe not quite to.

[Matt]

That place is kind of weird, right?

[Joel]

Exactly. No, but it really is. I guess this community we're trying to build of people who are like minded and you want to see other people achieve success too. So I think of it in some ways as a family and I don't know, maybe you're the godfather of it.

[Matt]

What does that make you?

[Joel]

Godmother, maybe Fairy godmother? Yeah, we'll say that. I'll go with that. But Gavin, we're glad to have you around, man. Thanks for listening to the podcast and congrats on getting the full match on the 401k. Even though you've got four kiddos at home, Matt, that's like a bigger hurdle to jump over maximizing those retirement accounts.

[Matt]

Speaking from personal experience, welcome to the four Kids club, Gavin.

[Joel]

You got that many?

[Matt]

It's not easy.

[Joel]

He's the mama bird, right? Or daddy bird. He's got those mouths to feed. It's not easy. And so I'm glad that you've confirmed that your company does a true up. By the way, not every plan offers this. And so that can come back to bite you if, let's say you don't contribute for a few paycheck cycles, but you're trying to invest money in bigger chunks later in the year in order to try to get that full match. Well, if your employer's plan goes the true up path at the end of the year, like Gavin's does, you'll be fine. Right. You receive the full matching dollars you otherwise would have received if you had invested like normal, like clockwork along the way. But if your employer does not offer the ability to true up, you will have missed out on some of those free matching dollars. So this is just an important detail to make sure that you're aware of with your employer if you're not committing Money to your 401k regularly throughout the year.

[Matt]

Yeah. And basically the reason that the true up is necessary is employers basically are lazy. And so oftentimes the way the match is calculated is they base it on your annual salary. And so at the beginning of the year, they say, okay, if we provide a 6% match based on your salary, this is how much we would contribute. This is how much we're going to match every single paycheck. But if there are some gaps, and I totally get it, Gavin, if you're kind of like, I'm not totally sure if we're how aggressively we're going to invest this year. I got four mouths to feed you. There might be times when you're just like, all right, things are looking kind of tight, so you skip out on some of those contributions. But basically, when you contribute to your 401k, it acts as a trigger for your employer to come to match with their matching contribution. And so what that means is that if you invest at the end of the year with a lump sum and you don't have that true up, if, let's say you just invest over three paychecks towards the end of the year, well, you're only going to get that match on those three paychecks, and the whole rest of the year you're missing out. And so what's actually interesting is that this works both ways, too. Let's say you are a very aggressive investor and you're like, oh, I want to get invested as soon as possible. And so you invest, let's just say, the first three months of the year.

[Joel]

Well, you're literally putting like 90% of your paycheck aside to hit the limit.

[Matt]

Yeah, exactly. And were you to do that, then, and each one of those paychecks, you would get the match that was calculated there for each paycheck divided out, like, over the entire year. But once you stop contributing to your 401k because you've hit your maximum contribution limit, well, your employer, again, it's not going to be triggered. And so they're not going to be matching it with dollars because they aren't calculating it on a per pay cycle basis. Some employers do that. It's just, it's more work. And I understand it from a. It's a pain in the butt for them to basically calculate how much you're deciding to contribute for that pay cycle to your 401k. But from an employee standpoint, that would be the easiest route because then literally they're matching $. You know, they're matching how based on however much that you're putting aside.

[Joel]

Yeah.

[Matt]

But unfortunately that's just not how the majority of employers do it.

[Joel]

Yeah. So you just have to know before you kind of figure out how, like what your contribution cycle is going to look like. You want to know the details of whether or not your employer's plan does. Yeah.

[Matt]

You want to know the details? Yeah.

[Joel]

Contribution matching or not, if your employer doesn't, let's say, offer the true up feature, you'd be well served to do whatever you can to make sure that you regularly invest at least up to the match with every single paycheck, not waiting until the end of the year like Gavin's doing. His question is basically whether or not taking this route and investing in a lump sum at the end of the year is okay because his employer is still going to contribute those matching dollars. I would say the simple answer is yes, as long as you're getting the full match, which you are, because your employer does the true up, then you're totally fine. No worries. Right. And more than anything, like, more than anything, we don't want you leaving matching contributions on the table because as long as you're contributing enough to get the full match, when and how you do it is really less of a consideration. It's more minor.

[Matt]

That's right. But that being said, if you, if you, and this is what we talk about here on how to money, we get a little nerdier with it. If you really want to optimize those dollars that you're waiting to invest until December towards the end of the year, well, they obviously won't be invested in the market quite as long. And since the stock market goes up essentially three of every four years, you're actually going to be investing at a less than opportune time. The reality is that the sooner that you can get your dollars invested, the sooner you can get your dollars into your 401k, the better off you're going to be, because that gives those dollars more time to experience the magic of compounding returns. And it may be more or less on a given year, but year after year, again, we're talking about compounding here. It's not just the fact that it happens once. We're talking about the fact that it just snowballs. It builds upon itself.

[Joel]

25% of the time you're going to come out ahead. Like in 2022, if you wait until December, you're like, woohoo. I actually made out like a bandit by waiting. But most of the time that's not.

[Matt]

Going to be the case. Exactly. So that would mean then, rather than waiting to invest at the end of the year, investing regularly with every paycheck, that would be a better pick. But if you want to get really nerdy with it, the superior option is going to be to invest. Invest as aggressively as possible and as early in the year as possible. But again, you know, we're talking about optimization here. We're not really talking about what's right or wrong, but either way, if by waiting to invest either at the squeeze it in at the beginning or if you squeeze it in at the end of the year, either way, Gavin, for you, you're going to be made whole and you're not leaving any dollars on the table.

[Joel]

Yeah, we're not trying to put pressure on you because again, you've got four mouths to feed. So it's not like, hey, start, max it out in January. Right. But this is something worth noting that by delaying, you're not optimizing to the fullest extent that you could. By the way, you mentioned a common misconception, Gavin, that I wanted to clear up, which is that bonuses are taxed at higher tax rates, which is actually not true. It kind of feels like it because more tax is withheld from bonus dollars that are paid out. Typically, we're talking about a flat 22% that the employer holds back in taxes when they pay out a bonus. Not to mention Social Security, state taxes, Medicare. So it can feel like, wait, I just got a $10,000 bonus. Why is it like 55 Hondo in my account? Like, I don't understand. I mean, everything gets sorted out though, when you file your taxes. And so if your effective tax rate is lower than 22%, that's going to shake out in the form of a tax refund for you when you file your taxes in the spring. And so bonuses are awesome. And hopefully you're even more excited to get yours this year knowing that it's not actually taxed at a higher rate. Matt, I hear that from people all the time.

[Matt]

They're like, oh my, it's a misconception.

[Joel]

Love getting a bonus, but man, the taxes suck on it. And it feels like it. But you're going to probably come out ahead when you file your taxes. You're going to get some money back.

[Podcast Advertiser/Host Intro]

Yeah.

[Matt]

I mean, it kind of comes back again to just some of the most common paths that employers take, which is when they apply the standard 22% tax rate on bonuses earned like that. It's the potentially easiest path for them to take, but it isn't the most optimized for you for your own personal finances, similar to the True up method or the True option. The fact that that's there, it's to be able to make up for the fact that they're not doing things perfectly optimized. Which if you live in a perfect world, of course everything would be perfectly optimized. But employers got other things to worry about. But Gavin, we think that you're going to be set. We appreciate you listening to the podcast, Joel. We've got two additional questions that we're going to get to. And speaking of podcasts, we're going to get a little meta with it. We're going to talk about the medium of podcasting itself, plus one other right after the break. If you've ever hired for your small business, you know how important it is to find the right person. That's why LinkedIn Jobs is stepping things up with their new AI assistant. So you can feel confident that you are finding top talent that you can't find anywhere else. The best part is those great candidates are already on LinkedIn. In fact, employees hired through LinkedIn are 30% more likely to stick around for at least a year compared to those hired through the leading competitor. That's a big deal whenever you hire counts.

[Joel]

It's crucial to the success of your business to hire the right person for your business. And it doesn't have to be complicated. With LinkedIn Jobs AI Assistant, you can skip the confusing steps and recruiting jargon. It filters through applicants based on criteria you've set for your role and surfaces only the best matches so you're not stuck sorting through a mountain of resumes. When you have a business to run, you don't have hours to spend on hiring.

[Matt]

That's right. Hire right the first time. Post your job for [e-mail] howtomoney then promote it to use LinkedIn jobs new AI assistant, making it easier and faster to find top candidates. That's LinkedIn.com howtomoney to post your job for free. Terms and conditions apply. This message is sponsored by Navy Federal Credit Union. As the holiday season rolls around, Navy Federal knows that you strive to do everything you can to bring cheer and joy to your loved ones. And as a credit union dedicated to serving all veterans, active duty and their families, they understand that every little bit counts.

[Joel]

That's why, for a limited time, you could earn a $250 cash bonus when you spend $2,500 with Navy Federal's cash rewards and cash rewards plus cards in the first 90 days. But the giving doesn't stop there. You could also earn up to 2% unlimited cash back with these cards. So saving up for whatever the season brings just got a little easier.

[Matt]

Give joy, get joy. Join now@navy federal.org @navy federal Credit Union, the members are the mission. Navy Federal is insured by NCUA. Visit navyfederal.org cashrewards for details. Cash Back terms and conditions apply. Offer ends January 1, 2026. Hey y', all, it's Joel and Matt from how to Money. Joel, you were just out in Seattle recently, weren't you?

[Joel]

Yeah, man, it was amazing. I went for one of the most glorious runs of my life, along the waterfront. It had everything you could ask for. Crisp air, mountain views, fairies gliding across the water.

[Matt]

Beautiful. I love it, man. Yeah, for us, our road trip through Charlottesville was a highlight. We actually splurged on a custom built Airbnb and it was well worth it. The house had these unique touches like a poured concrete counter there in the kitchen with a built in drying rack. Super functional. It even inspired some ideas for our house.

[Joel]

Ooh. Plus, with a kitchen like that, you save money eating out.

[Matt]

Yes, exactly. That's what struck me. What seems normal to a homeowner. It can be the thing that makes a guest trip really special.

[Joel]

Which is why hosting makes sense, Right? Travelers are looking for those authentic, memorable spaces. And if you don't have time to manage all that well, Airbnb's co host feature makes it easy. A local co host can help with everything from creating the listing to keeping your place running smooth.

[Matt]

Yeah. So while you are off making your travel memories, your home could be helping someone else make theirs. Find a co [e-mail] host.

[Joel]

All right, Matt, in just a second, we're going to help a listener out who has been CR with his own podcast, creating great Content for a lot of years. But how does he scale? We'll get to that one in just a sec. But let's first get to a question from a listener who's wondering if he should build a new house and then rent it out.

[Keith]

Hey guys, this is Keith from the Oregon coast calling in again. I'm curious what your guys thoughts are on the build to rent option as far as real estate investing. I have several just bare ground properties that are paid off, utilities are in ready to build on and I'm also a builder so I guess I'm able to build brand new houses and then just rent them out as opposed to like a spec house where you sell them. So yeah, I'm just. I don't hear a lot about this option but it seems like it could be pretty good long term. Alternatively I could just take the money I would use to do that. I'd probably get it from pulling a HELOC out of my house and put a down payment on a duplex or quad or something. Yeah, I don't know. But what's your guys thoughts on this?

[Joel]

Well Matt, at least this time Keith's got a question that isn't like peering into my soul.

[Matt]

Right, the counseling relational. Yeah, his wife is like picking them apart after, after going to counseling just.

[Joel]

Like your wife is. At some point Keith and I need to commiserate on the, on on the Oregon coast about the, you know, how difficult it is to be married to or to be in a relationship with a therapist.

[Matt]

And I'm going to invite myself not to sit in on yalls conversation but to drink beer and to go hiking.

[Joel]

And laugh at us.

[Matt]

But Keith, we really like your question because normally we would be a little more cautious of this approach. Right. Building something from scratch and you know with this long kind of drawn out plan in order to have an investment property. But you specifically check a bunch of boxes. You own the land so check the utilities are already in the ground. That's another check. That's awesome.

[Joel]

Like the opposite of like when people are trying to sell you lakefront property.

[Matt]

I know it's like for ten grand.

[Joel]

You can get this lakefront spot.

[Matt]

Here's somebody we know that will provide septic and yeah all that. But Keith is also the builder and I think if any of those details were different, our advice would probably likely be different as well. Like if Joe Schmoe was asking about just buying random dirt in a far off location like no, like a country song, that is. That would be our advice. We'd say yeah probably not. But it sounds like, you know, Keith, he's got the know how and he's got the ability, I think, to pull this off. It makes me think that, Joel, we've got a friend and maybe this is like 10, 12, 13 years ago, something like that. He in town purchased a plot of land and the goal for him was to build his house on that property. But unfortunately it didn't. The American dream, it did not work out for him. Whether I think it was a combination of maybe not having done quite as much due diligence, but also I think maybe some slight dishonesty on the part of the seller. But bottom line, it was basically FEMA.

[Joel]

Flood maps made it unbuildable.

[Matt]

He could not build there. And I don't. I think he ended up like he might still own the piece of property or maybe he donated it.

[Joel]

I think he had to donate it for tax.

[Matt]

That was like the best way.

[Joel]

He still lost money, much less the money in the, in the sorrow, it.

[Matt]

Was ended up being like $30,000 maybe that he'd originally, originally paid for that. So, Keith, for you, we think this could be an excellent route and an excellent path to take. For everybody else out there, listen to why we think Keith is well suited.

[Joel]

To do this, because he truly is. He is. Yeah, you're right. A lot of other people who would say, I want to buy some land and I want to build on it. There's just a lot you need to consider before you go that route. And utilities are definitely one consideration, but. But this is kind of like Keith's superpower here, right? He'd likely be able to build this house for far less than what someone else in the area would pay for a new home. Given the connections that you have and the sweat equity that you would likely be able to put in. Keith, it means like, maybe you're doing the tiling, maybe you're even installing some of the electrical. I don't know. But those factors are critical when you're trying to figure out if this is a sound decision, because the cost of building has gone up substantially, but so have rents and home values. And so as long as the numbers make sense for you and you're not taking on crazy high interest debt to pull this off, it seems like a sound decision to us. And it also makes me think, Matt, he mentioned buying a duplex or a triplex. Well, Keith, what if when you build this house, the hybrid approach, you build a duplex or a triplex, but you build a nice one. That's. I had A neighbor across the street back when we lived in town as well, and he built a really nice duplex. He lived in one half and he rented out the other. He eventually moved away from that, from that part of town. He lives elsewhere now and he rents out both. And this has been like a moneymaker for him hand over fist for a whole lot of years. So if you build a nice duplex, I think maybe that is the best in both worlds. That's right.

[Matt]

Also, before we keep talking about real estate, Keith, he didn't mention any of his specifics. But this is also assuming that, Keith, that you are already maxing out your retirement accounts, which are going to be the easy button when it comes to growing your net worth. But just because it's easy like that doesn't mean that investing in the overall market, that that is an inferior option. And because in many ways it's actually going to be the superior option, right? Like you're going to be more diversified, it can be fully automated. You don't have to worry about managing the properties. And of course, like, there's the chance that you may not quite get the juicy returns like you would with real estate. But that doesn't mean that you should skip investing, of course, in boring tax advantaged accounts. And keep in mind too, like, one of the things you said was you haven't heard many folks talk about taking this path. And I think the reason that is is because oftentimes you have real estate developers. You've got developers, right? And they are the ones who are like choosing the sites and figuring out how many houses they're going to kind of cram on to put on the land. And then you've got property real estate managers, they're typically specialized in what it is that they do. From a business standpoint, that makes a lot of sense. But as an individual, Keith, if you want to be scrappy and are willing to learn and do both of these things, man, you've got the ability to see this thing through from soup to nuts, right? Like you are, you've got the plots of land you can figure out, like how it is, maybe even that you want to orient the houses on the property. Like you have an ability to create some awesome places here, but then see it through, right? Like get it ready, show it, manage it. And with that in mind, again, like Joel said, this, this is, it's almost like a, it's a superpower, but it's almost like an unfair advantage that you have compared to anybody else who's looking to get into Real estate.

[Joel]

Yeah. So put it to use. And especially if you're going to live in half of it, maybe, maybe you say, oh, for two years, I'm willing to live in the property and maybe that's going to make this an even better, make it even, make more sense. Right. Make it an even better investment. But assuming you're good to go. Right. And you're ready to put that superpower to use, it's really to make sure that you're performing your due diligence. Right. Gathering the data, running the numbers is a really important step in this whole process. You got to figure out how much is this going to, is this house or multifamily residence going to cost me to build and what are you likely to be able to get in rent for it? Is there a dearth of rental units where you currently live?

[Matt]

Like knowing all good information to be looking up.

[Joel]

And those local dynamics are crucial in real estate. Right.

[Matt]

And local zoning as well. Like so the fact that you mentioned that the utilities are already in the ground. I picture a development of a bunch of houses and maybe zoning may not allow for multifamily or maybe there's an HOA that keeps you from being able to rent that out. These are obviously all things that you want to make sure that you have a good grasp on.

[Joel]

Yeah, yeah. And I love that he's thinking long term, by the way. I think it's really important because you got to know the local dynamics, but you also got to say, all right, well how long am I willing to hold on to this? And it sounds like Keith is willing to make this decision and build this house and manage it as a rental for years and years to come. And so if the numbers make sense from the get go, the longer your ownership timeline, the better it's going to perform for you over the years. When we had Chad Carson on recently, what did he say? That owning a house, owning rental property over the long term, eventually it starts out as a part time job and it turns into a blue chip stock and so the pain on the front end can pay off in the back, on the back end in a meaningful way. So Keith, if, yeah, if the numbers make sense even in the infancy of the project, then I think it's only going to get better over the years.

[Matt]

And really make sense down the road assuming there's nothing, something terrible that happens next, you know, next door in the town there. But Keith, we appreciate your question and we really like how you are thinking about this potential real estate investment. Joel, let's get to our last question, this is from Doug, and he has an affinity for the 80s.

[Doug]

Hey, Matt, Joel, Doug here from Philadelphia, and I have a question for you that is not a money question. I'm pretty good on that front and have been listening to you guys and taking your advice now for almost a year. This is more of a podcasting question. There are a lot of different money podcasts out there, and you guys seem to have built quite an audience for yourself. I have a podcast on 80s movies, sort of a comedy podcast, and then looking to sort of break through or build an audience. I mean, it's just a hobby. I know there are services out there that will help promote your show, blah, blah, blah. I certainly don't want to spend money. Is there any advice that you have, any. Any sort of outlets or maybe how you guys got started? It's something that I really haven't heard you guys talk about, and I know that this is not a money question. So if it doesn't make the show, I totally get it. But anyway, thank you so much. Shameless Plug. The podcast is good times. Great movies. I don't know. You can cut that out. You don't need to play that if you don't want to. All right, thanks, guys. I really enjoy the show.

[Joel]

Doug, we're not cutting it out.

[Matt]

That totally gets to stay for everybody to hear so that they can check out your podcast.

[Joel]

People should go listen. I went and listened to a couple episodes, and, you know, of course, the one I look for. Matt, what's my favorite 80s movie? Alf.

[Matt]

Was he in a movie?

[Joel]

That would actually have been a good pick. That's a good guess, but no. Bloodsport with Jean Claude Van Damme. Oh, classic Forest Whitaker. I mean, that's a classic. He was like the cop trying to hunt down Jean Claude Van Dam. Really? Oh, yeah, the underground fighting arena.

[Matt]

I remember that, dude. I just remember Jean Claude Van Damme doing the splits. And yes, it was like a cultural phenomenon, right? Like, basically, as a kid, you knew that if you could do the splits, like, like him, somehow you'd get just as ripped. Somehow you'd be able to kick everybody's butt, and it's just science.

[Joel]

I managed to never do any of the above things. But, yeah, actually, Doug covered bloodsport in episode 95. So if you're interested in hearing more about what an epic movie that is, go back and listen to that. We'll link to it in the show notes. But, yeah, he's blinded at the end.

[Matt]

And he's like, yes.

[Joel]

Chon Lee. Oh, it's so good. But, Doug, we're glad you're getting your show off the ground. And he's been at it for, like, 200 something episodes. But he's right. There are a lot of personal finance podcasts, and there are a lot of good ones out there, too. We're really thankful that how to Money listeners listen to this show and that they trust us. And so. I don't know exactly, Matt. I don't know if I could boil it down to, like, how or why people listen to us.

[Matt]

These seven steps, right, we're not going to have that.

[Joel]

Hopefully it's because we have a passion for the topic. Hopefully it's because we're decently well versed in it. And hopefully it's because we're trustworthy as well.

[Matt]

Yeah, we've resonated with a specific audience, but also we've been consistent. Right. Because one of the things, Doug, I'm sure that you've noticed is that the podcasting space is crowded. So you were talking about Europe, Joel, at the beginning of the episode. It's kind of like Europe in July, which is why you should travel during shoulder season. But it is totally true that there are basically millions of podcasts out there who are vying for listening time. But a huge percentage of those podcasts that exist, well, they've only released one single episode, and then another massive chunk have only released something like 10 episodes. So with you being in the hundreds, I think consistency clearly isn't a problem.

[Joel]

That's like, step one, right? Yeah, it goes there.

[Matt]

But I know for us, that was sort of one of the first things that we focused on was to be incredibly consistent, not only with making sure that we did it, but. But just the same time every week as well, because we wanted to create something regular that listeners were looking forward to. They knew that, like, oh, at the time, it was Wednesday. That's our first episode when we only had one episode. We would release them on Wednesdays. But you want to start building in that regularity as you are starting to build up that base of listeners.

[Joel]

What they used to call it in the world of radio was appointment listening. Right.

[Matt]

Ooh, okay.

[Joel]

It's like, oh, at 6:08, you know.

[Matt]

When to tune in.

[Joel]

Yeah. Your favorite host is gonna come on and they're gonna talk about this or whatever. Like. And so that's kind of what we wanted, was, hey, every week you get used to listening and learning, and, like, you kind of keep doing it because hopefully it's helping you and it's fun.

[Matt]

It's a part of your routine, right?

[Joel]

Exactly. And, Matt, we also learned a lesson pretty early on when people thought they were turning into a personal finance podcast. And we talked about beer for, like, 10 minutes at the beginning. You remember that? I do, yeah.

[Matt]

Well, early, early on, we also called it poor. Not poor.

[Joel]

Yeah, like you pour a beer.

[Matt]

Not. Not poor.

[Joel]

Broke, which is also just a confusing name.

[Matt]

Also a tongue twister.

[Joel]

So we had to change some of the marketing to appeal to the audience we're looking for as well. But obviously we're fans of craft beer and we include it in the show. It's a part of our vibe. But over time, we found more subtle ways to weave it into the show. And so, for instance, asking our guests about their craft beer equivalent, that's a great way for it to be baked into the show. But dominating the initial, most important 10 minutes of our conversation with beer talk, not so great. Especially when people are, like, looking for money advice and. And the practical help in that department. So, of course you don't want to neuter your show and remove all personality from it, but finding a way to garner feedback where you're listening to any critiques can help you to refine your pod. Matt, we had an email address specifically dedicated to that. Right. It was like howtomoney.com getbetter I don't.

[Matt]

Know if, yeah, the URLs kept that.

[Joel]

Alive or not, but that was a way people could submit negative feedback and say, like, listen, you guys suck on this, or you really need to improve.

[Matt]

On this, or constructive criticism.

[Joel]

I can't believe you said this. Always helpful. And so we try to listen from that feedback and make adjustments because, yeah, we're learning on the fly, too.

[Matt]

Yeah, we are always trying to create a better product at the end of the day. That being said, I'm going to take this opportunity. If you have some feedback for us, totally let us know. I think we still have that page up. I think getbetter or Do Better. Maybe that was it. But either way, just email us. Email [e-mail] that goes to both Joel and I. We always read those emails, but Doug mentioned some of those different services that you can pay to promote your show. Obviously don't do that because a lot of those are scams.

[Joel]

I'm.

[Matt]

I'm sure you're aware of that. Just today I dove into the. What are the message requests in Instagram, which I only look at, like, once every quarter?

[Joel]

Basically, I'm guessing, like 80% of them are.

[Matt]

There's so there's like something like 30 promotion things where it's just like for $10 you get a thousand or a hundred new, you know, 100 new follows, all of that kind of stuff.

[Joel]

Almost every like, like friend requests I got on LinkedIn is the same thing.

[Matt]

Exactly. And you know, your follower count or those downloads, you know, they might go up, but that might just be the product of bots. So I wouldn't trust any of those actual, you know, those requests, those Internet scam artists who promise to raise the profile of your show. And I also want to mention that you're probably narrow casting with the content of your show.

[Joel]

Right.

[Matt]

This isn't a problem, though, given what it is you talk about, given the length of your show, it's just likely, I think, that you're going to have fewer, yet more rabid listeners and fans of good times. What was it? Good times. Great movies.

[Joel]

Yeah.

[Matt]

So I'm not sure if you're looking to monetize the podcast, but if you are taking the route of Patreon or Buy my coffee, these can be great ways. Like, those platforms can help to just turn some of those diehard listeners into some actual money where you're able to monetize the show gradually. It doesn't have to be this all or nothing kind of thing. I think there are ways for folks to kind of dabble and kind of start offsetting some costs and maybe eventually you're. Oh, man, are we actually generating an income? That would of course be an awesome thing.

[Joel]

I mean, the real way to have the most successful podcast is to pivot into a crime show, because that's what people love and listen to the most. And that's what actually Matt and I are going to do. Starting next week, we're ditching the personal finance that we're going to create. Great.

[Matt]

We're going to commit the crimes.

[Joel]

Yeah, yeah. And then we're going to detail it along the way.

[Matt]

We're going to document it. It's going to be. It's going to be insane.

[Joel]

We're going to hide in the woods, in trees, and we'll be on the run for hopefully years.

[Matt]

But quietly podcasting like Blair Witch style, about.

[Joel]

Right.

[Matt]

That would actually think about it. That would crush. If you were creating a show in real time, in the news, you're on the run. But then I guess you would get deplatformed. Right. Like they would, because they wouldn't want that going out unless somehow you had control over your platform. You know, like if you were, you know, elon musk rich, you can control the means of which you're communicating with folks.

[Joel]

Right, well, so enough of that. And if you were, you'd have other ways to promote your podcast for sure. But, and I, of course, I'm joking, but the real reality is there are certain genres and certain types of podcasts that just have more purchase with a broader audience. Right. And so I think a personal finance podcast, it's not going to be as listened to as one of the more popular long form interview or crime podcasts.

[Matt]

That's true.

[Joel]

That's okay. But it's the thing that we want to create. And so you're creating the thing you want to create and that's the most important part.

[Matt]

Yeah, I think if you're this far into it, you have found your people and that is what's important.

[Joel]

Yeah, yeah, yeah. And the other thing, I mean, Seth Godin talks about the minimum viable audience, and I think you have to figure out, okay, what is that for me if I've got 1500, 1800, 2000 people listening every single episode I create? Well, would I show up to a lecture hall if 2000 people wanted to listen to me talk about 80s movies? Heck yeah, I would. Right. Because I'm that passionate about it to see that many people in one place. But sometimes we look at it as numbers on a screen when these are real human people digesting our content, which is super cool. So think about it like that. And then also realize, actually there's a lot of people I'm speaking to.

[Matt]

It's a ton of people who really.

[Joel]

Like and care about the same thing I care about. And so I love that. Doug called it a hobby. Like, I think the number one rule of podcasting is that you should do it if you feel compelled to get a message out into the world. You've got to love it. And it's okay to want to grow, but don't forget the reason you started it and why you take the time every week to continue creating. So, Matt, the way we started was like, literally we said, hey, we're going to be AAA at everything. We're not gonna be pro level because that would take too much time, too much effort. But as long as we're hitting AAA marks, as long as we're professional, doing our best, and we're being consistent, like you said, and then we try to get on other podcasts to kind of raise the profile of our show and help other people find out. And not just podcasts that did the exact same thing we did. Kind of tangential podcast, right?

[Matt]

Yeah. But that being said, we didn't do a ton of that. Like, like, literally, maybe just like a few, like a handful and. But slowly over time, we did build up an audience. And I guess I'm thinking of marketing. Like, it makes me like, early on we made koozies, but we didn't even send those out to listeners. I think we just, like, gave them out to our friends because we thought it was cool. Like, we were just nerdy and it was something that we enjoyed. But that's kind of what Joel's speaking to. Like, like make sure that it's fun for you. Don't worry too much about the marketing side of things. Obviously with like, so we were able to grow the show and then, you know, we're with iheart now, and so they do a lot of the marketing for us as well. But at the end of the day, don't. I honestly wouldn't even worry too much about that because marketing. I heard this quote where they said that basically marketing wins the day, but quality content wins the year. Like, marketing is good for the short run, but unless you're creating a quality product, it doesn't really matter what the marketing plan is. It depends on what it is that you're creating. And so Doug, I think focusing on the quality of the show, don't forget that that is what you need to be focused on, you know, first and foremost.

[Joel]

And you're saying, as opposed to worrying.

[Matt]

About the marketing and the scaling and growing side of things.

[Joel]

And Doug's is the kind of show where people. It's going to get word of mouth traction. Right? People who are like, I love 80s movies and they know their best friend loves 80s movies, and they're like, you got to listen to this podcast I'm listening to. That's going to be the best way for it to grow. I think you could get on, try to get on other podcasts, you can work on other ways to grow and to find your audience, and you can put a lot of effort into that. But do you have the time? The biggest thing. Focus the majority of your time on creating something great that you like creating. That's going to be the most sustainable. It makes me think we have a listener, Matt, who writes about a newsletter about fitness, and that's his thing when it comes to fitness is like, do what's sustainable. You might, like, be able to go hard seven days a week for two weeks, but then you're gonna burn out. You're gonna stop. And so whatever workouts you choose, make sure. It's something you want to replicate, you want to keep doing. And that's kind of. I found that to be true in my own life. If I try to do something that I hate, I'm probably gonna like. You're gonna burn out.

[Matt]

Yeah, exactly. All right, Doug, we wish you the best, man.

[Joel]

And hopefully you get millions of downloads just from this sweet how to money podcast session.

[Matt]

The sweet HTM plug. The box boys gave me a shot.

[Joel]

The HTM bump is what we'll call it.

[Matt]

That's right. The beer you and I enjoyed, Joel, was chubby Unicorn again. This was a guava milkshake IPA by Common Space. What were your thoughts?

[Joel]

You know, it's funny. On the can, it says it came with. It had guava puree in it, so I expected it to be a little thicker. It wasn't.

[Matt]

Oh, yeah.

[Joel]

It was a little sweet. Little vanilla smoothie. Vanilla smoothness to it. And so I would say with some of that guava note, but not as much as I expected. Yes.

[Matt]

So the guava lent it that, like, guava passion fruit, like, tropical flavors. Like, it makes me think of like, not Skittles, but the tropical Skittles. You know, I don't know, it's hard to explain. Kind of that softness that you get with some of the tropical flavors. But we definitely had that going on in conjunction with the fact that I assumed there was lactose in this, considering it was a milkshake. Milkshake ipa. But with it being an ipa, that also it wasn't overly sweet because you had the bitterness from the hops. It worked really well, and I actually really dug this one. And I dug the label too. It's got the unicorn on there. And we were joking before we hit record, so that is it. Weld works.

[Doug]

They.

[Matt]

They've got like a lot of unicorn imagery with their brand, and so it might be them.

[Joel]

Somebody's got the ninja versus Unicorn.

[Matt]

Yes. I think that's what it works. I could be wrong.

[Joel]

No, I don't think it is. I think it's. It's half acre or something like that maybe. Oh, I don't know. I should. We should know. We're craft beer experts, Matt.

[Matt]

We should know. But they've got multiple beers that are all unicorn. Unicorn based, whatever. So I hope Common. Whoops. Almost dropped it. Common Space doesn't get shut down because they got the unicorn on there.

[Joel]

Hope they don't get the cease and desist.

[Matt]

There's plenty of. There's plenty of room out there for just like there's plenty of room for all the different podcasts out there. There's plenty of room for Unicorn and craft beer.

[Joel]

I love a good Fruited Milkshake ipa. One of my favorites of all time is the Strawberry Milkshake IPA from Wrecking Bar. Oh yeah, that is a delicious one. But yeah, this one was solid and it's. Yeah, if you like sours and you like IPAs, put them together. This is what you get, right? That's right.

[Matt]

We'll make sure to link to any of the different resources we mentioned during this episode up on the website in our show [e-mail] and if you are not yet a subscriber to the how to Money newsletter, make sure that you are howtomoney.com newsletter. You can see some of the previous issues there to get a sampling, but go ahead and sign up to ensure that you don't miss the next newsletter that goes out on Tuesday, tomorrow morning. But buddy, that's going to be it for this one. Until next time, Best Friends Out. Best Friends Out.

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[Matt]

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[Joel]

There the last one.

[Podcast Advertiser/Host Intro]

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