← How to Money
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- [00:00]
Justin
This is an iHeart podcast, guaranteed human for small businesses.
- [00:06]
Joel Larsgaard
Every hire matters, but the time and resources required to hire right are Limited. Luckily, LinkedIn Hiring Pro is built for that reality. It's your hiring partner designed to help you hire with confidence by surfacing only the right candidates without turning hiring into another full time job.
- [00:22]
Ad Voice
Yeah, posting a job, that's not always the hard part. It's the finding, connecting with and screening the right candidates. Hiring Pro streamlines the entire process from drafting your job to shortlisting candidates and conducting AI powered interviews for initial screenings, all through a conversational interface that lets you describe what you need in plain language. Nearly 60% of hires find a candidate to interview within a week. With Hiring Pro, you spend less time searching and more time connecting with the right talent.
- [00:50]
Joel Larsgaard
Hire right the first time, post your first job and get $100 off towards your job post@LinkedIn.com help that's LinkedIn.com howtomoney terms and conditions apply.
- [01:02]
Ad Voice
Is it just me or is it getting really hard to figure out the best way to save for retirement? Well, Fidelity can help you to find clarity so you can save the best way for you. With a free personalized plan, goal tracking and timely insights, you'll be set to take on retirement your way.
- [01:17]
Joel Larsgaard
Get started@fidelity.com future expenses charged by your investments and other costs and fees associated with trading or transacting in your account. Apply Fidelity Brokerage Services Member NYSE SIPC
- [01:30]
Ad Voice
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- [01:55]
Joel Larsgaard
changing pursuit and my trip to Australia was one of the best investments I've ever made. I got to enjoy the bustling metropolis of Melbourne and some of the best coffee of my life while also driving the great ocean road and taking in spectacular views. I even hopped on a plane to the island of Tasmania. That was my favorite stop. I loved it all. A trip to Australia doesn't just offer a getaway, it's an investment in experiences that stay with you. Explore more destinations in Australia and start planning your memorable vacation@australia.com hey everyone, it's
- [02:27]
Ad Voice
Matt and I am going to tee up this bonus episode that we have for you this wonderful beautiful Saturday morning. You are hearing my voice because I'M not going to be on the rest
- [02:39]
Joel Larsgaard
of this episode because this is a
- [02:40]
Ad Voice
conversation that Joel had with Justin Peters of five Minded Plan podcast. That's financial independence, of course, and Justin was kind enough to send this file over for us to share with all of you how to money listeners as well. But yeah, Justin, very kind and a great guy actually. Quick story. I first remember meeting him during fincon one year. He was hosting a run that we did around the city. I actually can't remember where it was, but it's funny. I think Joel and Justin get into some of that actually running, but they're spending the rest of the time talking about basically finding balance in life, especially after getting after it in your younger years. It's not just about the money. We love talking about all the other aspects that make up a rich life. And yeah, I'm glad that they're dedicating an entire conversation and episode to that topic. So this is a good one and I hope you enjoy it.
- [03:38]
Justin
Want to get something done? Put the FI community on it. We're great at effort and optimization and we know how to get a lot done. But I'll be honest, we're terrible at knowing when to stop. I know five friends that are busier than ever, starting businesses, launching projects, setting ambitious goals even though they're already five, and control their time. If you love what you do, more power to you. But even when you enjoy your work, many of us are just doing too much. We're tired, but we just don't know another way to live. This is the kind of effort that has brought us success when it comes to financial independence and but it's also created friction in our lives now. So how do we move from these do more strategies that helped us succeed in life to a more balanced life where we feel in control instead of constantly stretched? To answer that, we're talking to Joel Larsgaard. I've watched Joel make this shift. He's cut back his working hours, invested time into things that he cares about, and even taking extended sabbatical last year. In this conversation, Joel is going to share why it is impossible to do it all and how to resist the temptation to always do more, and practical practices that you can start using today to create more space in your life. By the end of this episode, you'll have an idea of how you can do less, enjoy more of your time, and stay on track towards a life you actually want. Let's get into it. Covid for me personally was when I first realized how busy my life had become and when everything was forced to shut down in my life, that's when I realized how powerful having some space and some boredom actually is. Where were you and were you experiencing some of these same feelings?
- [05:11]
Joel Larsgaard
I had young kids and I was working normalish, sort of 9 to 5 job. And I just remember the calendar clearing nature of COVID and how at first it felt so weird and then it felt so serene. To go from just a packed out calendar to being like, I don't even have to like look at what's coming up because there's nothing coming up, there's nothing to do. There are no gatherings, there are no parties, there are no people. And I'm a highly relational person. So in some ways that was really hard. But in other ways I feel like it was the start of kind of a different approach to life, to living for me and for my family. Because man, what we did was spent a lot more time out in nature. We spent a lot more time kind of playing board games, hunkered down at the house and enjoying that. And I'm not going to say it was this overnight switch. It was easy and we just like made the transition and we're good to go. But it has been a slow realigning of priorities. And that is something we consistently look back to not as like the good old days, but as at least something that can inform the fact that maybe, and I think maybe this is what a lot of people experienced. Oh, life doesn't have to be the way it's been. And it's just really easy to feel like, because this is how my life has been for the last six months or six years, that this is how it's got to continue. And anybody who went through Covid realizes a lot of things outside things can change that. But it's not just outside things that can have that impact. You have some autonomy over that, the ability to change what your life looks like as well.
- [06:50]
Justin
Actually, I remember it being a little bit of a struggle for me to downshift. Like I remember like getting done with my work projects by 1, 2, 3 o' clock at the latest and then like struggling a little bit with like the guilt that came with like, oh, I should be doing work related things for a couple more hours now. Like it's not five o' clock yet, or it's not four or whatever it is. I felt it a little bit of a struggle to actually just enjoy downtime and recreational time. I don't know if you had similar thoughts there.
- [07:16]
Joel Larsgaard
I think it's an adjustment. It is one of those things that for most people, especially I think the kind of people who listen to this type of podcast who are like, I'm productivity oriented, I want to get better, I want to improve along a series of metrics in my life. And I have not abandoned all that completely. And we can get into what that looks like for me in a little bit, if you want. But I think for a lot of those people, it feels really weird and you feel a sense of uneasiness because it's not something you've experienced. Much of the concept of rest is like foreign, right? And so when we're presented with it, and oftentimes when we're forced to rest, we end up being like, gosh, that was nice. Like, usually it's only because we got laid out from some nasty sickness or something like that, and that's how we rest. And we're like, yeah, I caught up on some tv, I actually slept the way I'm supposed to, and I feel a little bit better, even though it was a sickness that forced me to do it. But the truth is that we have to continue to try. It's like we have to adapt to it because it's not something that we've become used to. And we can become used to a lot of things over time. But it's a really good idea, I think, for all of us to become more accustomed, get our bodies more accustomed to rest or to a little more leisure or to a little more of a lifestyle that feels sustainable.
- [08:36]
Justin
You leveraged financial independence to create a life that looks entirely different now for probably most of the people that are your age. It's so interesting. I. It's like there is this bubble of financial independence, but then we realize that we also live in this, like, larger bubble in community. And I have so many friends that don't necessarily have the, the luxury to be working three days a week or to take a six week sabbatical in the summer. How has that shown up for you? Like, is it interesting? Has it been an interesting shift to do some of these things? Does it feel more natural? What, how, how has these changes affected you?
- [09:09]
Joel Larsgaard
There's the countercultural reality of, of doing less, like, slaps me in the face sometimes, right? And sometimes I feel jealous, right? I'm talking to my friends who are crushing in their career, they're growing their income, they're growing a business or whatever. And I see the way I'm living life as being not completely divorced from that, but very different because I have a different set of priorities and so sometimes that rears its ugly head, and I get a little. I get a little jealous of what somebody else is up to because it's not normal for someone in their early 40s to not be stoked about building their career. And it doesn't mean that I'm not stoked about the work I do. I am. I love my job. I'm thrilled to come in and record the podcast that we make, you know, three days a week. And I. I love, you know, listener engagement and the reading and the research and the writing. I love it all, I really do. But it's just. I want to put it in its proper place. And so I think because it is culturally abnormal, I'm constantly kind of rubbing up against certain things that make me feel like I'm not doing it right, for sure. So it's not. It's certainly not all rainbows and puppies and unicorns and stuff when you kind of make a different choice. But I will say, like that on purpose, choice is worth it because of what. What it allows.
- [10:28]
Justin
If you're interested, you can go back and check out episode 134. Joel and I really talked about his story around financial independence and some of the things there. But as a Cliff Note version, I mean, you've used side hustles, real estate, investing, your W2 job, and then, of course, the business that you've created now to kind of create the freedom that we're talking about. When did you start downshifting from work? And then you started to realize, I want to make family or running or some of these other things a priority. And then how did that those priorities come into a decision? Like last year, whenever you took six weeks off from the podcast and your business to spend time. And I think you did a road trip with your family, correct?
- [11:06]
Joel Larsgaard
Yeah, yeah, we. We did. We had like a staycation, and then we also kind of went on the road and did some fun travels as well. And I think it was. It really was like a gradual movement, and Covid, I think, was the beginning, and then we. We moved to 20 miles up the road. But it's a little bit slower pace of life. And I walk and bike essentially everywhere where I live now, and there was just. It was a slow movement towards doing less. Like, it was not this overnight thing. And to be honest, too, part of, like, being married to my wife has helped push me in this direction. Like, the way she thinks about the world and the way she sees our family has. Has really. Those conversations have prodded me to think differently it's like, well, what are we trying to continue to invest for or make more money for? Like, what's. What's the goal? What's it gonna provide us? And it's like that old, like, fisherman story, right, that everyone's heard at this point, where the fisherman's got this great job and this, like, venture capitalist comes down, he's like, listen, we. He, like, sit. He's like, sipping beers after the. After fishing with his buddies. That's his business. And it's like, well, we can blow it up and we can buy more boats and you can expand your business. And then what's the ultimate goal is to retire and sip beers with your buddy after a day of fishing? And he's like, I'm already doing that, right? And. And so I think if. Think about our lives a little more like that. What's the goal? Like, what are we trying to achieve? And when you realize, like, I put in the effort over a lot of years so that if I keep my desires in check and I keep the things that are my highest priority at the forefront, money, many of which cost very little money, then I can have more freedom and flexibility for thing. I felt like one of the things just. I feel like I had lost some of my own identity as a dad of young kids and a worker. I was like, who am I? What is it that I enjoy outside of, like, work and family stuff and raising kids? And I felt this intense need to go explore that. I was like, otherwise, I'm going to get sucked into this vortex and feel like I'm completely gone. Who is Joel anymore? So that's been one of the real endeavors, too, of these past years, is to lean into that and say, who am I on all these levels? And I'm a much better dad and husband because I'm making space and time for myself. And I didn't want it to come at the expense of family time. So really the place it had to come out of was work. And I realized, well, that's okay. Like, I can do that. I can make that decision without it being a financial threat. And the biggest threat. I think for me, what it was, and I know this isn't true for everybody, was the threat of what that would reveal to the people around me. Oh, I'm deprioritizing work in my life. It's even weird to talk. It's weird to talk about it publicly. It's weird to talk about with my friends because not many people are in that space where they're like, yeah, work it's like one part, one cog in this machine of a great life. And for a lot of people, it's just. It's a huge part of their identification. And again, love my job, but to see it as less a piece of my identity so that I could find my identity in other places and things.
- [14:06]
Justin
And I think it's something I'm struggling with currently, too, as I downshift away from work, even just away from being a podcaster and into other aspects of life. Like, of course I. I want to be a great significant other. And whenever parenthood comes up, I want to be a good parent, too. But those are with someone else. There's this, like, other dynamic to it. I wanted to have some independence. That's just me. Like, who is Justin showing up in the world as. It's taking time, honestly, to sort that out. But I realized I needed to create the white space and the boredom in order to actually find it. I, like, I was like, oh, kind of. I'll retire into something once I know what that is. But you almost have to, like, give yourself some time off, allow Fridays to open up for you, not be so tired in order to, like, experiment, explore and find some other hobbies, interests, passions that you really care about. And then don't make this mistake that I always do, too. Like, how can I monetize this hobby or this interest? Oh, my God, Justin, who cares? There's no business here. There doesn't need to be business.
- [15:02]
Joel Larsgaard
Yeah, it can almost defeat the purpose of it then, right? If you're trying to turn it into a business. And I think you're right. And I think that is probably one of the main reasons I think we feel detached from ourselves, is not just the constant busyness, but it's the constant distraction. And it's really hard to find that white space. And I mean, everybody. I don't want to pull the Jonathan Haidt stuff here or whatever about our smartphones and their intrusion in our lives, but there are some meaningful changes I had to make on that front so that I could, one, feel more present when I was with my family so I could actually, like, derive joy from that time instead of feeling like they were. They were a distraction from the other things I felt like I needed to get done. And that was because I was over amplifying the importance of certain things that were on my phone, including my email. I've taken email off my phone, and that was one of the things I was like, well, what if something really important comes through? I have a laptop upstairs Man. And I can, like, I can run up there and check my email once or twice a day, but I'm not checking it like three times an hour, you know, which is just overkill and utterly ridiculous. And none of US did that 15 years ago, but we feel like we need to now. Yeah. I do think there are some, like, truly practical things that we can do to scale down on some of those intrusions into our lives that will make it easier to be those kind of people who allow space, the white space, so that we can experience some of that boredom, because that's where some of the greatest ideas come from. And then that's often too, where we start to ask questions that we wouldn't otherwise ask when our brain is left to kind of like, ruminate and devolve. We really do start to ask some interesting questions of ourselves, but often we never let our brains get into that space.
- [16:39]
Justin
Yeah. Let's talk about some of the practicals. What did you do on the work front? Did you put any bumpers on the days you work or the kind of work that you do in certain time frames? And then I'll kind of segue us into the small practices. I love the deleting email off your phone and that. That just feels like an obvious. So we'll get there too.
- [16:54]
Joel Larsgaard
Yeah. The first thing was literally just to be like, why are we working Fridays? Like, is there a need? Are we just coming in to get stuff done that doesn't need to be done? Can we. And there's the. I think it's. Is it Parkinson's law that the amount of work will fill up to the time that you allow it? Right. And so, like, can we do this in less time? Oh, yeah, we can. And so that. That was the first thing to go was Fridays. And so Fridays then became like, me time. That was the carved out space. I'm not gonna, like, go for a two hour run on a Saturday and, like, leave my family in the lurch most of the time, unless I, like, want to get up early and I like my sleep. So usually I don't want to do that. But that's where Fridays came in. Fridays were my chance to. To, like, catch up on a few errands if I needed to, because I feel like that's what Saturdays often I found myself doing was running around town and going to the grocery store and stuff like that. And so Fridays have really become this day for me to catch up with people that I haven't seen in a while, grab a coffee, go for a run, go For a hike with a friend, stuff like that. Get outdoors. And so just to know that like, Fridays are mine is awesome. Like, if my wife's off too, we can go out for lunch. And that's great. She's building a career. She's in a different stage than I am. So I'm like over here with like, less to do than even her. And then it just started to encroach in other ways too, where it was like, oh, cool, sometimes I'm coming in at 10 or 10:30. And we found that we. And then go into the sabbatical. It was one of those things where it was like, you should have heard some of the conversations between me and Matt. Like, especially on my end, there was like angst and like, is this thing going to survive us abandoning it for two months? And then what happens if we come back to a shell of a podcast and we are essentially unemployed because no one wants to listen to us because we hung it up for so long? And there are all those questions that will come along the way. Like, it is never this guaranteed sure fire. You make this decision and your life's going to be better. And there are no trade offs. There are always trade offs to these decisions. And some of which will be financial, some of which will be the slowing of the building of the thing that you're working on, but you have to decide which one is more important. And so, yeah, part of it was just like, let's take Fridays off, coming in later on other days. And then it turns out we can still get the things we need to get done done. And then we find new processes, like to be able to get what we need to get done done. Or we switch things up where Matt handles something that I used to handle, or I'm taking something on solo that he used to join me in. And so we've been able to divvy it up in a way where it doesn't feel like we're putting in less effort or getting less joy from it. We're just spending less time doing it.
- [19:39]
Justin
I love that. And if you don't realize it, Matt is Joel's co host and business partner. And how to money? You took six weeks off. And that, I mean, that kind of pressure test a lot in a business, I feel like. And people, I think, can also do this in their own careers too. And going through those processes and identifying what could be automated, what could be simplified, I find that really fascinating to at least go through that practice not only with your career, but life in general. Yeah, like There might be some areas, especially the FI community, too, as we gain more money, and there might be things that just makes less sense for us to continue to do in our own households, in our careers. There's lots of things that we can hire out for help at some point in time. I just. I like that you're approaching it in the way of, like, let's try to look at things a little bit differently. And you've been running a lot of, I feel like, mini experiments over the last year of, like, what's it look like if we slow down, if we use replays on the podcast a little bit more often or we stop publishing the newsletter? Or, like, they don't have to be binary, like, forever decisions, too. I like the creativity that you have behind work right now to still get what you want out of it, but make it shape your life a little bit more. And like I said, the. The FI community is in a perfect position to do that. As we gain more control of our finances, and therefore, I think we should be gaining more control of our. Our freedom, autonomy, and time.
- [20:56]
Joel Larsgaard
I think in some ways it's easier as a business owner, although in some ways it's harder, right? Because, like, you are atlas with the world on your shoulders. Like, that's your business, and if you drop it, then oops, like, business feels like it just got stopped. I think there's some of both in that. But in a lot of ways, it does feel like, as the business owner, like, it rises or falls with you. And so if you want to, as long as you know you're, like, doing what you need to do and you're doing it well, it allows you the freedom to be like, I don't have to do it all the time then. But as a W2 employee, I think actually, especially in modern America, we have more flexibility than we think, and we put more pressure on ourselves than we need to. And if we just have some of those open conversations with our manager, the person, the team we work with about what our boundaries are. Like, I've got tons of friends who are W2 workers who I'm constantly shocked at, like, the flexibility that they pull off given the careers that they have. And I think sometimes it needs to be like a collaborative conversation or you need to say, hey, here's really what I need. I'm thriving. I'm going to continue to kick butt, but I really need this. This time parameter opened up for me. So whether it's half days on Fridays or something like that, and, like, listen, my productivity will not Go down. But this is what's going to allow me to stay here long term and be a key player on this team, whatever that looks like for you with your boss. It's a conversation that's worth broaching because it's really easy to just kind of continue to go through the motions and be like, well, everybody works 8 to 5 Monday through Friday and nobody's asked for this. Well, if you're really good at what you do, you can totally ask. And the truth is too, there are a lot of other places you could work that would be. Would love to hire somebody like you with a more flexible work schedule because you're that valuable, right? So it's really easy to shut it down and be like, well, it's easy for him to say because he owns his own business and he can, like, do it how he wants. And there is some truth to that. But I think it's also true that more people have the power or can gain that power over time, even if it doesn't feel like it's going to be easier, instantaneous.
- [23:02]
Justin
How do you resist temptation to keep doing more, Especially in the career avenue, like, especially with a successful project like how to money. Like, it's one thing if I'm like, laid off and kind of forced to do less. It's another thing if things are going really well in my career or the project that I'm working on, you know, specifically for how to money successful project for you and Matt, what's stopping you guys from growing it even bigger? Like, I could imagine you guys doing a daily show or creating spinoffs like how to friends or how to Career. Like, like, there's so many opportunities for you guys to continue to build it. Like, you're a top 100 show now. You want to be a top 50 show or a top 20 show. I don't know. There's so much temptation there to continuing double down on what's working well in the career aspect, for sure.
- [23:42]
Joel Larsgaard
And I, I love opportunity and I hate to say no to a good opportunity. And so that is something I've struggled with and had to really grow in and learn from. Like, and my wife just had the opportunity to do this training apparently that, like, nobody gets into. And she's a super young therapist and she got in and she's like, I mean, I got to do this, right? I'm like, I don't know. It sounds awesome. You don't have to like, do you want to? And so it's going back to like, do you want to or do you feel like you have to? And it does. If the way I live is great, would $10 million change my life? It wouldn't. And it's not because it wouldn't massively increase my net worth. Right. But it's like, ultimately, if I love my life the way it's constructed, in what way does spending a ton more time nose to the grindstone, building a business that's going to increase my income, at what cost and for what goal? And I had to find other things that lit me up just as much, if not more than work. And again, keeping work in that proper confine. I don't think I'll ever want to not work, because I do find a lot of value and fulfillment from it. I think I want work to be a part of my life for always, but I think this is the way it makes it sustainable. Right. If I have these other outlets that matter to me just as much, and that is. That's like, something I really want to talk about at some point in this podcast, and maybe I'll bring it up now, is the spire model, which was developed by a Harvard professor. And it's about these, like, five areas of human reality that really, when you come down to it, are worth measuring your life on. Right. And so it's spiritual, physical, intellectual, relational, and emotional. And when I started to kind of think about my life in those facets, I found myself bankruptcy in some of those areas. And I was like, well, I'm doing pretty good on, like, the business building. I'm doing pretty decent on the financial independence side of things. But my goodness, like, I have not explored much of the emotional depths of my interior. Being married to a therapist will also help you realize that you have not done that work. And so when I started to look at my life through that lens, I was like, there's just more balance I want to achieve, to be the person I want to be to in this world. And not everybody will feel that. Not everyone will think that's a really helpful framework. But I think whether you're religious or not, like, I think across all spectrums of kind of how we live, thinking about those five facets of your life and then being like, how am I doing in those areas? What's holding me back from maybe being more physically healthy? What's holding me back from being more relationally engaged? What's holding me back from being more emotionally healthy? Those are really good questions worth asking. And some of it is time, and some of it is intentionality. So. And you're going to have to change. I think both of those things and think about the inputs that you're expressing and how those are helping you become the person you want to become. Ultimately, like we are in the driver's seat of our own lives and it's just really, really easy to get comfortable with the idea that somebody else is making the calls and that we don't have any decision making ability. And I know it feels more like that at sometimes than sometimes than others, but I just think there's less truth to that than we think. And holding our light up against a different PRISM can help us to see what's actually going on inside and what do we want to change.
- [27:10]
Justin
Yeah, it's better to focus on the things that you can control than can't control. And oftentimes I think the things you can't control are there's actually some practical ways that you can take some more ownership and control of those. So talking through the SPIRE method, a little bit more than two. Did you sit down with those five pillars and then just literally ask yourself what's going well, what's not going well in these areas, what's holding me back? And then did you, did you spend a day with that? Is this something that you revisit often? And then how do you take that information? Especially when you realize there's a pillar that you might not be putting enough intention into? Yeah, how do you action orient that then into your life?
- [27:48]
Joel Larsgaard
Yeah, that's a great question. Yeah, it's something that over the past couple years I've been referencing more and more and as I go back to it I see, oh this look, I'm really strong in this area or that area and less strong in others and it's pretty consistent. Like there's a couple. And I think most people will find that like I'm really good at the relational thing, not so good at the physical thing or whatever. And I think it's something that's worth kind of doing check ins, whether it's once a month, once every six months and just being like where have I made progress, where do I want to make progress, where do I feel like I'm falling short and what am I going to do to kind of change that? And the cool thing is some activities can hit a bunch of different things on the SPIRE model. And there are a couple for me that I feel like hit all five, that's very rare. Most of them are going to hit like 1, 2 or 3 at most. But that's why doing those things that really provide benefit across all, all those levels is really wonderful. Find those things and lean into them and then see, well, where do I feel deficient? Do I feel like, oh my gosh, I've had no spiritual reality to my existence for a long time. What does it look like to engage that? Do I want to go back to the church of my childhood? Oh my gosh, no way. Is there some other sort of practice that you can engage into that would give you some exposure on that front? Or maybe you physically like me for the most of my life did very little. I would bike to work and stuff like that, but none of it was ever training oriented. It was a leisurely bike ride in and I'm like, you know what? I'm shocked at how much increasing exposure to that part of my world has opened up for me on even all these other fronts. That it felt like it was just physical and then it's like shocking. Running impacts all these other areas of my life in meaningful ways too. So I think it's something, it's kind of a good rubric, I guess, to think about when you're trying to understand where you are and where you want to see growth and then find activities and practices that will help you to grow in the ways that you want to see growth and to maybe even just give yourself a pat on the back for the ways you're doing well too. For small businesses, every hire matters, but the time and resources required to hire right are Limited. Luckily, LinkedIn Hiring Pro is built for that reality. It's your hiring partner, designed to help you hire with confidence by surfacing only the right candidates without turning hiring into another full time job.
- [30:26]
Ad Voice
Yeah, posting a job, that's not always the hard part. It's the finding, connecting with and screening the right candidates. Hiring Pro streamlines the entire process from drafting your job to shortlisting candidates and conducting AI powered interviews for initial screenings, all through a conversational interface that lets you describe what you need in plain language. Nearly 60% of hires find a candidate to interview within a week. With Hiring Pro, you spend less time searching and more time connecting with the right talent.
- [30:54]
Joel Larsgaard
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- [32:46]
Joel Larsgaard
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- [33:01]
Justin
let's talk a little bit more about running. It sounds like you recently got into running. Maybe you enjoyed running in the past. I know we both share love for running here and I love that you kind of started with the intention of this might be something that kind of checks the box of the physical elements, but I feel like you are alluding that it might be checking more than one of the pillars in the spiral model that you're talking about here.
- [33:22]
Joel Larsgaard
And that's one of the rare things that checks all of the boxes in there for me. And it's really funny because if you had and I talk to my kids about this all the time now because they're like, I don't like doing that thing. And I'm like, yeah, well, there's a lot of things you don't think you like doing until you give it a shot. That was running for me because I literally, I just, I think I have these distinct memories of being in elementary school and the Presidential Fitness Test and we were all forced to run a mile and I ran it ridiculously slow. And I was like, I'm not good at running, I'm not interested in it. And I saw these other kids whizzing by at like six and a half minute pace and. But the thing was we never trained or no one ever talked to us about like, well, here's actually some of the fun parts of running or the benefits of it, or the cool things you can do, like you can run on trails and stuff like that. And so I guess it was about three years ago when I first started and I was really, really bad, right? Really bad. Cause I was just out of shape and had not. I mean, I remember running a couple miles on the trails with one of my friends and I'd have to like stop and walk. I'd have to sit down on a bench sometimes. And it feels really demoralizing in some ways. But in another way, I needed something to be bad at. I needed something to start from ground zero on and to build right. Like, and I think that's also a challenge. It was this good challenge for me in middle life where I was like, I'm pretty good at my job. I enjoy doing it. Like you kind of get into a rut and a rhythm and a rut or a rhythm, I guess, and those being different things. But starting something new that was really hard has actually been. And pushing through that hard phase and it's still hard. It never gets easy. To me, that's been one of the most like life giving things of the past few years. And I just encourage more people in there, you know, hitting that 40 mark, like, that's a really good thing to lean into. What's the thing that you think maybe I could actually come around to liking that thing? It might take a little bit of effort, but actually maybe I need to be terrible at something because I'm pretty competent in a lot of areas of my life.
- [35:24]
Justin
I also love that one of the hesitations that I have around doing less is just feeling like I'm becoming a passenger in life and I'm a little less ambitious with what I'm trying to accomplish in my life. But I love that you slowed down on work, but you inserted Something like running that has been a passion of yours and has been something that gives you ambition. Like you've ran races, you've ran races for time, you've ran races for fun, but it's something that you just actively wanted to get better at.
- [35:55]
Joel Larsgaard
Yeah. And it's really important, right, to have those things that you just want to get better at. But it's also important to have some metrics. Right. It's fun. Like, my Garmin watch is constantly attached to me and I love the metrics of it all. But I also like, purposefully don't check into the more advanced metrics because I also want it to remain a fun hobby and endeavor. And so just getting out there and running, I never like leave my watch at home because I like to know how many miles I've run and what was my pace and stuff like that. But it's really easy also to nerd out about all the details. And part of the joy I find in it is, and I have to remind myself of this as well is just getting out there and, and being in nature, being on the trails. Running with friends. I love running by myself. I love running with friends. But I have been shocked too, talking about the spire model and how running has hit the R in a big way. I'm shocked. Some of my best friends now have come in the last couple of years just because they're running buddies. And there's something. It's running to me is the new version of getting a beer at night. I'm hanging out with people. We're going super deep, you know, by 30 minutes into the run and then we still got another 30, 40 minutes together. And so I've been really thankful for it from that perspective. It's, it's a middle aged man's way to, I don't know, meet other people.
- [37:14]
Justin
I like it. And men especially. We need, I think we need an anchor activity to bridge relationships. I find it kind of hard to just text a buddy and just be like, hey man, you want to like just come over and hang out? It's much easier for me to text friends and be like, hey, you want to go for a run? And then a run might turn into a beer or coffee afterwards and that might turn into, you know, something, an invite to get together later. Like it's been helpful to have an anchor activity like running to, to build some friends and relationships around.
- [37:42]
Joel Larsgaard
Yes, Yep. I agree. I think board games are another one. If you're like running, that's for idiots, that's fine. Board games that's another good one. And coffee's always good. I love just kind of a nice coffee hang or just a hike, a walk. Like, that's a great activity too. So there's like so many choices, and most of them cost little to no money, but they can enhance relationships. And I think when it comes down to it, like, so many of the activities in our lives are bids to increase relationship. If you buy concert tickets to go with a friend, or to go with your spouse, or to go with your, you know, the person you're dating, it's like, yeah, you're excited to see the show, but it's also, it's a. It's totally a relational endeavor. And going alone would be not nearly as exciting, right? Or going to the movies by yourself. It's like, it just. It hits different. You're just. You're not as excited to watch the new movie that you want to see unless you get to kind of share it with somebody. So it's totally fine to spend money on those awesome things too. Like, that's something I'm spending more money on these days, is concerts. But I think leaning into and realizing how relational we are. I even talked to my friends who are more introverted, and they'll tell me something typically along the lines of like, oh, I didn't realize I needed this because it's not what they're prone to do is to make those plans and to hang out and they could be okay just kind of flying under the radar and being at home. But especially if you're an introvert, I think probably forcing yourself on occasion a little more to partake in those activities so that you can have that relational connection. You probably won't regret it afterwards.
- [39:16]
Justin
I love the buy to strategy that you're kind of talking about right now. Like, if you got a concert you want to go to, just buy two tickets and sort out who you're going to bring. And especially, like, once again, we're in a privileged position of at least having somewhat of an abundance whenever it comes to money. It's fun to be able to treat a friend that I know that's going through a rough patch right now where money might be tight and I know their favorite artist is coming, or they. We have a restaurant spot that they've always wanted to go to. It's nice. Respect, dude. I got it. Like, just come hang with me and spend some time with me.
- [39:44]
Joel Larsgaard
100%, man. And I think sometimes in like the fi universe, it's. It's really easy to keep thinking about accruing more and more. And you think about some of the, like the rule of 72 or something, well, if I spend that much money on that ticket, you know, what would be worth 10 years from now? And like, part of the glory and the goodness of having been a good saver and your investments having done well is the joy of sharing that with other people. And that typically doesn't look like just handing them cash. That's weird. But it's like, yeah, let me prioritize an experience for us or let me pick up, let me buy the beers tonight, like, please. And I, I love doing that because I know it means, it means a lot. It meant a lot to me when I was younger and other people would do that for me. And so I want to return the favor. And I think, yeah, people feel special when you do that. And it's such an easy, easy thing to do that most of the time isn't very expensive.
- [40:42]
Justin
I remember one of my favorite moments with you. You took me to one of your favorite breakfast spots in Atlanta and picked up the bill and it was so fun to like see where you spend your college days after like a hangover Saturday or something. It was like such a cool experience. I remember the biscuits and gravy being incredible too. So yeah, life change. We got to do that spot again.
- [41:00]
Joel Larsgaard
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- [41:24]
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- [41:52]
Joel Larsgaard
Hire right the first time, post your first job and get $100 off towards your job. Post@LinkedIn.com howtomoney that's LinkedIn.com howtomoney Terms and conditions apply.
- [42:04]
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- [42:43]
Joel Larsgaard
Get started@fidelity.com future expenses charged by your investments and other costs and fees associated with trading or transacting in your account. Apply Fidelity Brokerage Services Member NYSE SIPC I love to travel and one of the most rewarding experiences of my life was traveling all around Australia. I hit up the great city of Melbourne. The coffee scene was incredible. Had my first flat white there and now it's my morning drink of choice. I took a lovely road trip down to the 12 apostles, which is a beautiful collection of limestone rocks jutting out of the ocean, catching some breathtaking views on the Great Ocean Road. And of course I found a great local brewery, the Great Ocean Road Brew House. Snagged a couple of delicious beers and I've still got that T shirt. I even hopped on a plane to visit the delightful island of Tasmania. Hobart is one of my all time favorite towns and visiting the Mona while there was one of my highlights. My trip to Australia was one of the best investments I've ever made. I loved every minute. The wildlife, the culture, the people, and those memory dividends of our epic excursion. They keep paying off every time I see a picture of that trip or I reminisce with my travel companions. Australia is a destination that proves joy and financial wisdom can go hand in hand. Explore more destinations in Australia and start planning your memorable vacation@australia.com
- [44:04]
Justin
as we finish up this episode. What about small practices? We kind of talked about some of the big things. I love cutting Fridays, finding a hobby or an interest that really builds your identity that doesn't revolve work. But what about some of the small things you mentioned? Deleting email off your phone? Anything else that you've done recently that has made a big difference in creating
- [44:23]
Joel Larsgaard
space in your life for anybody else out there who's a parent, you realize that kids activities and sports get insane and I have so many friends who are in a similar space to our family, but their lives are so much more chaotic and so much more crowded. And it's because it's like, oh, we do lacrosse three nights a week and soccer two nights a week. And then there's like four games on Saturdays. And you think I'm exaggerating, but I'm not. Like, that is one kid in a week, right? And they've got multiple kids. And so they're separate, like all night, every night because they're taking each kid to their, you know, to their various activities. And so I think it's really important to say, well, what, okay, we're like, hey, one sport at a time. You know, one practice a week and a game on Saturday, that's fine. But like, it's really easy to overdo it on that. And then you, you know, you lose your family identity and your, some of your individuality in the process. So be careful as parents with that. We've, we try to keep like a really tight regimen on that. Not that we don't want our kids to do things they enjoy, but we just want to ensure that we're like family dinners, right? Family breakfast and family dinners are really, really important. You know, my kids are out the door by like 8:15. And so that time together in the morning is awesome. It's super important for us. And if I had to leave a little bit earlier and miss out on that, that'd be a huge bummer. I want to be home in time for dinner most of the nights. Most nights we have a family dinner together. I think those rhythms are really important. There's something else too, and this is like a, an old school biblical concept. But the, the idea of having a Sabbath is underutilized and people don't realize the power of it. I didn't realize the power of it until recently. And just so we have really taken it seriously over the past three to six months.
- [46:13]
Justin
And you just mean like a, like a day of rest.
- [46:16]
Joel Larsgaard
That's right. And what does that look like? Well, it doesn't mean we sleep all day, but in, in fact in some ways our Saturdays. So it's like we do it like Friday night to Saturday night. And in some ways, like most of our Saturday or a Friday night doesn't look terribly different than what it looked like before. There was often like a pizza movie night and there was some chill, you know, Saturday morning or whatever. But there's no chores. Normally there would be, there's no errands. And normally I'd be like, oh, I gotta go get this thing done real quick. I'm just gonna check that off my to do list. There's none of that. And so it is like from a mental break perspective. I'm shocked at how much of an impact it's made and there's, there's like, there's no email. Like I'm not checking my phone as regularly either because I'm like, no, this is, this is the break from all that stuff. And so it's not that we don't have friends over or not that we don't do fun stuff or not that we might not go to a basketball game for my son, but it is like this mental approach to a 24 hour period of our week and it's realizing like, we have enough, we don't need to work for more right now. We can chill out. Seriously. I can't overstate the value and the benefit of doing that with 24 hours of your day. And again, it's really hard because especially as like a guy who likes to go, I've got a motor on me. It's hard not to like, want to be productive sometimes. Like, I was like, I gotta go make this Amazon return. And my wife's like, we're Sabbathing right now, man. Like, this isn't the time to make returns. I'm like, oh yeah, you're right. So I have to catch myself in it. And we're still new to it, but that's been one of those things that I would suggest people at least consider and try out.
- [47:49]
Justin
Yeah, it reminds me of a practice I do, selfish Sunday, where Sunday is obligation free. I try not to guilt myself if someone sends me an invite and I just don't really want to do it on a Sunday. Like most other days, I'll will my way to pretty much anything, especially in a period where I'm prioritizing showing up for friends and really trying to prioritize being a good friend. But Sundays I've really tried to protect for myself. I'm a big to do list person as well. Like I'll create a to do list at the beginning of every single day. Sunday's that one day that I don't. There's really only one obligation that I have on Sunday and that's to continue my running streak. So I'm going to run at least two miles on Sunday, but the rest of the Sunday is just like, build your own adventure. You know, if someone sends me an invite and it sounds really fun and like my gut reaction is like, ooh, that's fun, then yeah, I'll go. But if my gut reaction is like, I don't know if I really want to do that today, then I just once again don't guilt myself into doing that. And same with chores and errands, and projects and all the things, like, if I'm excited to do it, cool. If I'm not, it can wait till Monday.
- [48:49]
Joel Larsgaard
And, like, that's also just so countercultural, isn't it? Like, how many people do you know that, like, errands seep into every day of the week? Or they just. They. And then they're. They find they start Monday frazzled again? Because it doesn't. It felt like the weekend was. Yeah, it was different. I wasn't doing the work for my boss, but there was no moment in time where it didn't feel like my brain was on and I was actively working towards something, whether it was a project around the house, not that I wanted to do, but that I felt like I needed to do. And to be honest, with young kids, it doesn't mean it's always, like, chill and easy. It does mean that we've all got, like, a little bit of a different perspective on how our weekend went now and how we feel going into Monday. So there's still some times where it's insanity. There's no way to do it perfectly, I don't think. Whether you have kids or you don't, but I do think, yeah, having that. Instituting that Sabbath has been one of those kind of cornerstone things for us. It's made. That's made a big difference.
- [49:48]
Justin
Well, Joel, you're one of my favorite content creators out there. You got an awesome podcast called how to Money. What's cooking on that front? Anything in particular you're really excited in terms of episodes or content you're creating right now?
- [49:57]
Joel Larsgaard
Oh, well, it's. Dude, I still. I still love it. I love it. I truly do love creating the podcast every week. Get to do it with my best buddy. And, like, what's better than that? What's better than going into work, like, when you want, and then working with your best friend and creating content together? So, yeah, people, if you're looking for money advice or money help, like, it's. Try to be super practical. We answer listener questions on Mondays, interview really interesting people on Wednesdays, and they talk about the financial news of the week on Fridays. Yeah, they're all a joy to me. I love, like, the reading, and I can't. I can't get enough. You would think as somebody who's been in the money space for 20 years, I would be tired of the topic, and I'm just not because I think it touches so many areas of our lives and. And even the stuff you and I have talked about today, like, I feel that kind of bleeding into what we talk about on the show because money like touches every area and it's if we're not talking about the whole point of it and how we love our lives and how our money impacts that, then I feel like we're not doing it right either. So that's Some of these topics are coming up on on the show too.
- [51:02]
Justin
Once again, if you haven't checked out how to money, go check them out. Matt and Joel put a ton of effort into the content. They have a really awesome podcast out there. It's a good companion to this podcast as well. Joel, man, always a blast talking to you. Thanks so much for your time today, dude.
- [51:15]
Joel Larsgaard
Thanks for.
- [51:24]
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Joel Larsgaard
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Justin
Best Network based on analysis by Ugloops B test intelligence data 1H 2025 Oogle trademarks use it under license and reprinted with permission. Hear that?
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Justin
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