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- [00:00]
Host 1
You're listening to an iHeart podcast.
- [00:05]
Joel
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- [00:24]
Matt
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- [01:11]
Joel
Where do you see your career in 10 years? What are you doing now to help you get there? The sooner you start enhancing your skills, the sooner you'll be ready. That's why AARP has reskilling courses in a variety of categories like marketing and management to help your income live as long as you do.
- [01:27]
Matt
That's right. AARP has a bevy of free skill building courses for you to choose from. Because the steps that you choose to take today will help you to love what you do in the future. And that's why the younger you are, the more you need AARP. Learn more at aarp.org skills welcome to how to Money.
- [01:45]
Joel
I'm Joel. I'm Matt and today we're talking creating a post layoff action plan with Marlo Lyons.
- [02:09]
Matt
Yeah, so gone are the years of constantly job hopping in order to rapidly boost your salary. Like it seemed like for a minute there, Joel, like everyone was looking at job postings as regularly as they were looking looking at houses on Zillow.
- [02:21]
Joel
True story.
- [02:22]
Matt
Or maybe that was just me. But with the uncertainty though, that we've experienced in the overall market, it's not just the new hires who are a bit nervous about hanging onto their jobs. Even the government workers out there. Or maybe I should even say especially the government workers I don't know. But, you know, they thought they had fairly secure positions. They might be on the chopping block. They might be sweating it a little bit, which is why I'm glad that we get to talk with career coach Marlo Lyons, because not only does she have over 20 years of experience in this field, she herself has actually been fired multiple times.
- [02:57]
Marlo Lyons
Marlowe.
- [02:59]
Matt
Okay, I thought it was multiple times. Sorry.
- [03:01]
Marlo Lyons
Just once.
- [03:02]
Matt
I don't bring that up, you know, in order to knock you. Like, I think this is a strength because I think this gives you a unique perspective into this position that many folks are finding themselves in. Marlo is the author of A New Career where she goes in depth on pivoting to a new career. She's got a new book about landing that from. She's host of the Work Unscripted podcast. And we're actually very pumped to hear the advice that she's going to be able to share with our listeners today during our conversation. So, Marlo Lyons, thank you so much for joining us.
- [03:33]
Marlo Lyons
Thank you for having me.
- [03:34]
Joel
Glad to have you. Marlo, first question out of the gate, we got to ask you, what do you like to splurge on for? Matt and I, it's been craft beer for a long time. You know, we have other things, too. But what is that for you? What do you like to splurge on while you're still doing smart stuff with your money for your future?
- [03:47]
Marlo Lyons
Okay, I gotta tell you, I don't splurge on things. I splurge on experiences. So last summer, my family and I went to Europe for six weeks.
- [03:56]
Host 1
Six weeks.
- [03:57]
Marlo Lyons
Six weeks. And toured Europe. And look, I mean, I did stay on points at certain places, and we used points for airfare between countries and things like that, but. But also stayed in a castle one night. Stayed in a cave one night. Like, it was. We did some really cool experiences. We did truffle hunting, and we cooked with our truffles afterwards at a. Was this in Italy? Oh, of course it was.
- [04:22]
Matt
Yeah.
- [04:22]
Marlo Lyons
Outside of Florida.
- [04:23]
Joel
I'm scared of caves. You said you slept in a cave. That frightens me.
- [04:26]
Marlo Lyons
Yeah, it's like a cave. It's a cave hotel in Madeira. It was the coolest experience ever. We had a pool. And not. Not a hot tub. A pool in our room. Like, a pool that you could swim in the pool. Like in our bedroom.
- [04:38]
Matt
All right.
- [04:39]
Marlo Lyons
It was the coolest thing ever.
- [04:40]
Matt
I literally just wrote that down. Cave, Hotel Madera.
- [04:43]
Marlo Lyons
It was so cool. I'm totally gonna look this up. We had the best time I mean, and what was so nice is, like, I really, like, got to know my kids really closely, and we had, like, great conversations. And by the end, they were getting us to the next train. They were telling us where we needed to go. You know, we're running all over Europe. It was. It was awesome. So I'm big on experiences. So my. My next experience. Well, it's not mine. It's actually my daughter's. But we got her tickets to the Stray Kids concert in la. She loves Stray Kids, which is a K pop band, so. So that's her next experience.
- [05:13]
Matt
It's good to know.
- [05:14]
Marlo Lyons
So that's what I like to save for that stuff.
- [05:17]
Joel
No clue.
- [05:19]
Matt
All right, Marlo, let's talk about work, because I will correct myself. You haven't been fired multiple times. I guess I just read different. Different accounts of the same firing.
- [05:29]
Marlo Lyons
Firing.
- [05:30]
Matt
Maybe it was just one time, but it seemed like it was from an early job, and it sounded like that had a pretty big impact on you. Can you maybe explain how that firing at that point in time, how that helped you to pivot?
- [05:40]
Marlo Lyons
Yeah. Yeah. I was 26, and I was, I would say, you know, a young, kind of immature. Almost call myself a teenager still. Even though it was my third job, Right. I was a TV news reporter, and it was my third job, I still felt like, you know, I was empowered to say anything I ever wanted to say when I wanted to say it. And so, unfortunately, I didn't work for a boss who, you know, was trained in eq. And back then, there was no eq. Right. There was no, like, training in these things. And so instead of, like, talking to me about it and wondering what was going on, and I can tell you what was going on. I got fired. And what was going on was I had been engaged and then unengaged about six months earlier. So I was pretty angry, and I was pretty sad, and I was pretty, like, you know, trying to figure it out. And it was showing up at work, unfortunately, and there was no question about it. Just got fired. And look, I don't blame that boss at all. I thank that boss to this day. If he's ever listening to this, I literally would thank him in person, you know? You know, not because, you know that I feel like he changed my life in that moment. And what he did was he made me kind of reflect on who I was and who I wanted to be and how I wanted to be, and it allowed me to really take control of my emotions and take control of my trajectory. And what was so Interesting is that this was like when the Internet was just getting going. So, yes, I'm old. I'm sorry, but I'm not too old. I feel like I'm 30. So let's just go with that. But the Internet was just getting going. And I was a TV news reporter and I could see, once I was fired, once I could pause for a minute, I could see, wow, okay, we're not gonna need TV news much longer. Cause the Internet, right? We're gonna have news on the Internet. And so it gave me a second to go, all right, what do I wanna do? Do I wanna do TV news forever? What am I going to do with this? And so I got back in to get out, basically. And that's when I went to law school at night. And then I worked at an entertainment attorney. And then again made a pivot after that because after 12 years of that, I had had enough and moved into hr. And that's when I got certified for in coaching. And I loved it.
- [07:54]
Joel
Talk to me about your. The first job that you went after, the gumption that you displayed getting that first job was incredible, I think. And can you talk to us about that process? Because it feels like the way most people apply for jobs these days is. It's kind of like, let me just send in the resume, see what happens.
- [08:11]
Marlo Lyons
Yeah, it doesn't work.
- [08:12]
Joel
You didn't take that approach.
- [08:13]
Marlo Lyons
No, I know what you're referring to. I convinced my parents back in the day before cell phones, right? So they couldn't reach me at any time, those types of things. Before computers, very few people had computers. They're very expensive. I convinced my parents to allow me to drive from D.C. to Texas and back. And I interviewed at every TV station along the way. And back in the day, there was abc, NBC, cps, and maybe a few foxes here and there. And I drove from D.C. to El Paso, Texas and back. Multiple stories in that, of course, but without a cell phone, without a computer, I had a little brother word processor writing thank you notes as I was traveling and making phone calls, trying to get meetings the day before. Every time I would move locations and I came home with no job. And so. But I also came home to an answering machine message from a news director that I had sent a tape to. And he was in Medford, Oregon, and he said he'd like to talk to me about an associate producer job. And so I moved then from D.C. to Oregon for my first job. But, you know, the thing about that is you can't do that today. Like, nobody's gonna let you in the door, right? At these companies, if you went and drove around and started dropping off resumes, nobody wants to see a paper resume. They want you to apply through the applicant tracking system. But the concept of networking still exists today. The concept of meeting people, the concept of getting out of your house. Right, the concept, the concept of reaching out to people and trying to get meet and greets and not asking for a job, but getting them to know you and asking where you can fill a gap. Right. Or is there anything you can do for them? Like that still exists. It's different today, but it does exist. And I think you need to have that tenacity and you need to have that curiosity and you need to have that gumption, like you said, to figure out what is the strategy that's not working and how to find the strategy that will.
- [10:05]
Matt
You had a job as a producer, I think you said an entertainment attorney. Like, from what I, what I understand, like you were interviewing applicants to like the real world, like shows on MTV or Chopped, things like that. Talk about this variety of careers that you had. I think there's a part of me that's encouraged because I feel like the, all the jobs I've had, they've been through line, tangent, tangentially, like related to each other. It's been quite the range. But I'm curious to hear you speak to that.
- [10:32]
Marlo Lyons
Yeah, there is a through line. Like, when you think about it, first of all, there's no job you'll ever have in your life that you don't gain skills from. You will always gain skills. I don't care if you're flipping burgers, you will gain skills. And so for me, I started as a TV news reporter. I started as an associate producer. I was producing medical reports that a local doctor would voice. Then I became a reporter, which is what I wanted to do. And then I decided, you heard what happened. I got fired. And so I was like, all right, I want to get out of this. I don't want to do this. And I definitely don't want to be in a situation again where I'm, you know, on my own trying to figure out what to do when I get fired. So I decided I was going to go to law school at night. I always had an interest in it. And so I worked at a TV news station in Oklahoma City and I basically worked from 8 to 5. I was on the 4 and 5 o'clock news doing a consumer report. And then I would go to law school from 6 to 9 at night. And then I would meet the live truck at 10 o'clock for a live shot on an investigative report. And I did this for three and a half years and graduated. And then I moved to LA to be a screenwriter. You can see how that turned out. Although right now I do have a little script floating around Hollywood still. But that didn't so work out. But sometimes things happen 20 years later. And then I got a job working in what's called reality diligence. So you're doing background checks, psych and medical on all the reality show participants.
- [11:55]
Joel
That's so interesting.
- [11:56]
Marlo Lyons
And I worked on all of the shows that you can imagine. So NBC and then viaCom. So at NBC I worked on the Apprentice and I worked on Real Housewives when it was just starting with Teresa Goodiz and all these people. And then from there, you know, I did that for 12 years and it's amazing to talk about at cocktail parties, but after 12 years, I had had enough. I was exhausted, Right. So because remember, you're dealing with people that are. That are sane, but barely. In some colorful folks, in some cases. In some cases, right. Very colorful backgrounds. And so then I decided I had no idea what I wanted to do. I was completely lost. And so I started trying to figure out what I could do with my skills. And that was the wrong approach. And what I was looking for was, how do I just get fulfilled? Like, how do I just be happy? How do I find the thing? And the wrong approach is, what can I do with what I've done? That's the wrong approach because then you're only looking at things that you have skills for. And I wasn't looking at things that would actually fulfill me. And I worked with a career coach, interestingly enough, briefly. And he said, you know, what lights you on fire, what gets you excited, what gets you out of bed in the morning? And I came up with a list of things. And from there I was able to figure out that I wanted to be in HR now. And that comes from wanting to help people and wanting to. Now I'll explain why this was the wrong move, but it's about, you know, I wanted to help people and I wanted to, you know, help people succeed in their lives and things like that. And I realized I went to get certified in coaching because every job description that I saw that resonated with me had the word coach in it a thousand times. I loved the coaching courses, loved it. It took a year, year and a half to get certified, and I absolutely loved it. And then I moved To Roku, which was my first HR job. But HR was. It was a startup. Like, it was 400 people. So HR was all about coaching the C suite. So I coached the head of players, the head of advertising, the cfo, CMO, and general counsel. And that's all I did all day, is I just coached them and their teams all day long. I loved it. I loved the job. I loved everything about it. I did org design and change management, and I loved it. Well, then I decided, well, you know, they don't really have an HR department, so they don't really do the other HR things like performance management or learning and development or all those things. I said, God, I really need to think about, like, how am I going to get the rest of this HR experience? So I moved to Intuitive Surgical, which is a medical technology company, a phenomenal company. But I realized one thing very quickly. Quickly. I wasn't coaching as much. I was still coaching at the C suite level and whatnot. But I was doing all these other things in HR and I didn't love that stuff. And, you know, HR is not really about helping people. It's about aligning people's skills and capabilities to the company goals. That's what the job is. I get that. But I was always. I always like to help people. And when you're coaching somebody, whether it's how to give hard feedback or how to do an org design or things like that, you're actually coaching. You are helping it away. You are helping the company. You're still doing the goal of hr, which is aligning those capabilities. But when you're doing other things in hr, it doesn't feel like you're really helping as much.
- [15:11]
Joel
Yeah. Yeah.
- [15:12]
Matt
Nice. Yeah. So it all came back to helping folks on an individual level. But can we, like, I guess zoom out for a quick second?
- [15:18]
Marlo Lyons
Because we've.
- [15:19]
Matt
I kind of mentioned this in the intro, but we've had an incredible run of really low unemployment in the country.
- [15:24]
Marlo Lyons
Yeah.
- [15:25]
Matt
But that era, it looks like it might be coming to an end.
- [15:27]
Marlo Lyons
It's over.
- [15:28]
Matt
Yeah. As a career coach, like, I would love to hear your. Your take your current assessment of the overall labor market.
- [15:35]
Marlo Lyons
Yeah. You know, when I left Intuitive, it's because they were calling people back to the office and we had moved states. And so I was petrified right afterwards, to answer your question. Like, I thought, oh, my God, I got to find another job. But this market is horrible. How am I going to find another job? And I realized, you know, I had a side coaching business for 10 years so I just went out on my own and it's been great. But this market is probably the worst market I've seen in a very long time, probably since 2008, but it has lasted longer. This has actually been going on for well over a year. This didn't just start in January, which.
- [16:07]
Joel
Is a big whiplash, a big change from what we were experiencing just a few short years ago.
- [16:11]
Marlo Lyons
It is absolutely. And I saw this in 2008. I was coaching back then as well, and again now. But this is worse. It is actually a lot worse because I think in 2008, we saw all the layoffs happen with the market crash, and it lasted until about 2010. This has already been going on for over two years, easily. And so. And we've got at least another year or so of this, if not longer, depending upon, you know, how the government sways, shall we say. But it's rough. It's very rough. And I tell my clients that I'm like, you know, I can help you get prepared to get a job. I can do everything in my power to make sure you are capable of getting a job. I can't get you a job. And I've said that for the last over a decade or 20 years that I've been doing this. And I never promise getting them a job because I'm not in the interviews. Right. I can't whisper in their ear as they're answering the question, but they will be 100% prepared to answer the questions. And right now, people need to take a breath. They need to take a breath, and they need to just understand that it's going to take longer. If they're looking for a new job, it's going to take longer, but. But they are capable of getting one. There are jobs out there. It's not like there are no jobs out there at all.
- [17:25]
Joel
You're making me think of the real estate market for some reason, and how, like, a realtor can help you price it and they can help you talk about curb appeal and get the house ready, but they don't have control over what's happening in the overall market. Is it a buyer's market? Is a seller's market? Like, how long are listings hanging out typically? And we can make sure you're on the shorter end of that if we do this, this, this and this. But there's still no guarantee. I'm curious. You're not a personal finance expert, but you are a career coach. What are the common money concerns that you hear from clients? You talk to people. I'M sure often post layoff. What are they feeling? Are they like, got to get that new job stat because I don't have any cash on hand. What's going through people's minds?
- [18:05]
Marlo Lyons
Yeah, people are, of course, super concerned. Some people get exit packages, some people don't. Right. Some people just get laid off and they get one week severance if nothing. There is no law in this country that says you deserve a severance or you will receive a severance. So know that if you are employed right now and you're happy in your job, just know that there is no law that says you're going to get anything. Now, there might be company policies, but those can change on a whim. So you got to keep that in mind because I think a lot of people are concerned of how long it's going to take. They're concerned, will their money last? And unemployment in the United States, as you know, does not pay much of anything. Maybe it'll pay for your gas that week, or maybe it won't afford eggs these days, but it won't pay for much. And so I think they're just kind of wondering, do I have to sell my 401k? Do I have to sell other things? Do I have to sell my house? I've heard that. And then one of the biggest concerns is, can I get the same amount of money I got before? Because that's what I've been living at. And I will tell you that the prices are coming down, like, the salaries are coming down a lot. So like 20, 30, $40,000. So what you were paid before, you may not be paid for the same job now. And also you have to consider like, level, like a director in tech might make the same thing that a VP makes in entertainment. Right. You have to consider both the industry and also the level that you're going in at. And whether it's a startup or it's an established company. So all of those things matter. And I think they're just really concerned, will I make the same amount? And the chances are you might not. So if that's your only criteria, you're gonna have to open your mind a little bit more to other things and not look at it as a step back, but as a market shift.
- [19:52]
Matt
You said, yeah, you gotta open your mind. Earlier you said that you want folks to breathe or to take a breath.
- [19:58]
Marlo Lyons
Yeah.
- [19:59]
Matt
Are you a fan of folks taking a sabbatical? We've talked with someone not too long ago about using a layoff as a potential time to reflect and, and this is. I mean, it seems like this is the core of what you're saying, to figure out what is going to get you up in the morning to find that fulfilling work. But do you think sometimes that leads to a longer, maybe even an intentional longer period of time where they're not working?
- [20:22]
Marlo Lyons
I don't think it leads to a. I mean, it depends how long your sabbatical is, right? Whether it's going to lead to a longer time not working. I think that a sabbatical is a great idea, and here's why. You need to process your emotions. Right? You have to sit in it, and whether you're mad or you're relieved or whatever comes to you, you have to process it, and you have to allow yourself that time to reconfigure your mindset. Right? And what I mean by that is you have to understand that you have capabilities, you are smart, you can change jobs, you can change careers. Being laid off is not a reflection of your skill set. It's not. It is a reflection of the former company's lack of proper planning during this turbulent economy. And. Or it could also be a change in business strategy. The point is, if you take a sabbatical and you just pause and stop and be off that treadmill for a minute, you might actually be able to figure out what you want to do versus what you can do. And that's what I do with my clients. As I always ask them in my very first meeting with them, I'll say, what do you want to do? And every single one of them either looks at me with a deer in headlights or they say, gosh, nobody's ever asked me that before. Can you imagine? Everybody's trying to figure out what they can do. You gotta figure out what you want to do. The want is where you find fulfillment. It's not the can. Because I can't tell you how many executives I work with that are in their 30s, 40s, and 50s, and they've been tapped on the shoulder their entire career saying, hey, you'd be great for this job. Here's more money, and here's a higher title.
- [21:55]
Joel
Cool.
- [21:56]
Marlo Lyons
Yay. And they are miserable.
- [21:59]
Joel
Yeah.
- [21:59]
Marlo Lyons
Because, yes, their skills and capabilities aligned with the goals of the company, but they never aligned that with what they want. And without that, they're not happy.
- [22:08]
Joel
I mean, that totally makes sense. And I think, yeah, we see a lot of people in corporate America finding themselves in that position. And sometimes the layoff is. It doesn't feel like it in that moment, just like when you got fired from your job. It didn't feel like it in the moment. Hey, this is probably the best thing for me. But ultimately, and from what I've seen with a lot of people around me, when they've gotten laid off, it has led to maybe a reset that has allowed them to pursue something that does light them up a bit more. One of the let's talk strategies in particular, one of the things you tell people is you want them to start writing down their accomplishment. Post, layoff, like, before too much time passes. Why is that? What's that about?
- [22:47]
Marlo Lyons
Yeah, they should write it in free form. Right? Just write it down. What they accomplished, what they were successful at, what they feel they did great. And they should do it in the star method, or at least do free form first and then put it in the start method. I call it the start method with a T. That situation, task, action, result, takeaway. Because the takeaways are what you learned from that experience. Right. And how it connects when you're looking for other jobs, how it connects to those jobs. And you want to include hard and soft skills. And the reason you do that is it helps you not only reflect on how great you are. Right. And what good you did and what you can do.
- [23:23]
Joel
It's a nice little emotional boost.
- [23:24]
Marlo Lyons
Yeah, it's an emotional booth. You're capable, you're successful. Like, you can bring value to a company. You're also going to need that. And you're going to need it when you are revamping your resume and considering what you want to do. And when you're writing down your accomplishments, by the way, maybe put a little extra star next to the ones that really lit you on fire because you might have an accomplishment that. Ugh, yeah, I got through that. Thank God. And it was a big deal for the company. Ugh. But yuck, you know, that's not something you necessarily want to pursue. But if there's something that lit you on fire and you love something about it, then maybe put a little asterisk next to it because that'll help you focus on what you want.
- [24:01]
Matt
Very cool. And, yeah, maybe you should be focusing more on those projects that even the. Your former employer may not have valued all that much. But if it gets you excited, I could see how that could lead to additional opportunities that you're pretty pumped to pursue. But, yeah, you're talking about documenting these accomplishments. You're essentially taking stock of what you've done. Beyond that, though, is job hunting and Marlo. We've got a lot more questions to get to about job hunting. We'll get to that right after this.
- [24:33]
Joel
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- [24:51]
Matt
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Joel
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- [25:29]
Host 1
Best One yet, but can you introduce it as a Tinder bio? Yeah, this is Jack. That was Nick. We're best friends and ex finance guys who host the Best One yet, the daily podcast merging business news with pop culture. Yep, and we have a puppy. Actually on our podcast we'll tell you how Starbucks borrowed a growth hack from Ludacris. Or that blondes showing their natural brunette hair is an early indicator of a recession. Or why hot take coming Apple's next product should be an AI smart toilet. We worked on Wall street, sold a media startup to a tech company and have done 1500 episodes of this daily show. So whether you're launching a business aiming for that promotion or just want to be the best person at brunch, Start your morning with our three business stories in 20min. You don't use one of our takeaways in your next job interview, we'll give you that puppy. It's a write off. The most interesting people follow the best one yet on the Wondery app or wherever you get your podcasts. You can listen ad free right now on Wondery plus.
- [26:27]
Matt
So Joel, one of the major reasons we have a personal finance podcast is because it can be so difficult for folks to know what their money is doing or for them to know how it is that they're spending their dollars. They don't realize that they've got these financial blind spots like eating out or spending on food delivery. They don't know the full impact that online shopping is having on their ability to save and invest for retirement. Well, Monarch Money acts like your personal cfo. It gives you Full visibility and control. It acts as a financial command center for all of your accounts, all of your investments, your personal goals that you have for your life.
- [27:03]
Joel
I feel called out here, Matt, because I went into the back end of my Monarch Money account recently. The biggest surprise, how much money we spent at Chick Fil A. It's a problem that needs to be remedied, but at least I know that now. And, and you get insights big and small when you partner with Monarch. Without a clear financial picture, your financial dreams truly can feel out of reach. And Monarch makes managing money simple, even for busy lives. By the way, it's the top recommended personal finance app by users and Experts with over 30,000 five star reviews.
- [27:32]
Matt
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- [27:49]
Joel
All right, we're back from the break. We're still talking with Marlo Lyons, talking about what to do after getting laid off. And Marlo, yeah, you talked about, we talked about some of the financial difficulties that people face and hopefully you have some sort of financial Runway, whether it's from your former employer or whether it's from money you've saved up. And ideally for our listeners, we want them to have both. Right. But let's talk about job hunting afterwards and taking a minute to breathe, taking some of that emotional stock. Makes sense. But then when it comes down to it and when you're ready to start looking for work, is this something that you take 40 hours a week to do like you did at your old job or even more? I mean, are we like full time going after it, foaming at the mouth, job hunting, or are you taking a more lax approach?
- [28:35]
Marlo Lyons
Absolutely not. Absolutely not. This is not a 40 hour a week job. You are not chained to your desk. You are not chained to your computer. And I think that's super important. I'm glad you brought that up because a lot of people feel like if I don't put in all the effort, if I don't work hard, I'm not going to get a job that has nothing to do with it. So, no, not 40 hours a week. What you should do is you should, number one, know what you want to do. You cannot create a LinkedIn profile or resume if you don't know what you want to do because then your resume is too generic and nobody's going to understand how to connect the dots to what you want to do. So you have to know what you want to do. Then I would sit down, I would define your target roles and your companies that you're interested in. Of course, look at other companies as well. Never just limited to that. I would set yourself some daily and weekly goals. And what that does for you is that prevents procrastination. Right? Like we can all sit here and scroll for hours, especially if we're not feeling good today or if we're, you know, kind of depressed or sad or we're stressed or scared. But this will prevent your procrastination. It'll help you feel accomplished at the end of the week. If you set a weekly goal and a daily goal of what you want to do. And those need to be goals that you can control. This is critical. You cannot control if you're going to get a job. You can control if somebody looks at your. You can control if you apply to jobs. Right? You can't control if somebody's going to hire you or if you're the finalist. If you're a finalist and three other people are finalists, you don't control that. You don't control who's going to get the offer. You can only control what you control. So you should set goals about. I'm going to apply to, you know, 10 jobs. If there are 10 jobs to apply for. I'm going to reach out to two or three people a week and try to get meet and greets at companies that I want to work for. Here's another one that I think people forget. Need, and I mean need to be posting on LinkedIn. And what do I mean by that? I mean you absolutely must be posting either thought leadership if you're an executive in your field of which you want to work, or commenting on other people's posts. You can also forward their posts and comments. You can also write articles, you can write newsletters, you can do all sorts of things. But you must be posting on LinkedIn. And here is why. The algorithm on LinkedIn, the more you post, the more visible you're going to be. You need people to see you as a thought leader and as somebody that they're like, oh, I want to work with that guy or I want to work with that girl. And the more that you post, the more that somebody out there will see it. Now, do not post that you hate AI and it's taking your job and, and you know, and that. How can people not want to work with real people? And you know, I got laid out.
- [31:20]
Matt
Don't be a negative Nelly. Okay?
- [31:21]
Marlo Lyons
Right. Can somebody help me? And the reason. And again, you can say, I need help, right? Hey, network, I need help. Right? But you gotta tell people what you want. I want a job in this state. I'm willing to work remotely. I am willing to go into the office. I am looking for these titles. I am open to any industry. You've got to say what you want. You can't just ask for help because people don't know how to help you. And try to keep the negativity to a minimum because that is a reflection on you. And when things change, as they change in the office all the time, are you going to be the resistor to that change? That's how it's seen. So you need to do that and then two more things. And this is really important. It goes back to that 40 hours a week thing. You must leave your home, you must go out, go have a coffee, go for a walk, take your computer with you. You will meet people. If you go to a Starbucks, and I know you can only sit there for so long these days, but go to a Starbucks, somebody else will be there with a computer. Ask them who they are. Get curious about them. They may be working or maybe they're visiting from out of town. Whatever the case may be, they may know somebody who knows somebody who knows somebody who can help you. So you have to get out of your house. Go to every possible networking event, every possible thing that is not a networking event, meaning your friend is having people over. Don't say you don't feel like going. You never know who you're gonna meet there. Gotta get off the couch, gotta get off. Get out of the jammies. It's kind of like dating, right? Like, you're not. Nobody's gonna come knocking on your door, right? You gotta get out there. And so. And then finally, I always tell my clients, you have to take care of yourself. If you like to exercise, go exercise. You need to do what gives you energy and makes you feel good. Because this is gonna be. This could take a while, you know, depending upon your network and depending upon what jobs are out there. The higher you go, the less jobs there are. Right? There's only one CFO, there's only one CMO. There's. Right. Even VPs. There aren't as many VPs as there are directors and lower. So you have to get out there and just take care of yourself and do the thing that gives you energy and makes you feel good. It doesn't have to cost money, right? It could be a walk. It's beautiful out right now in most of the country. So it is.
- [33:38]
Matt
It's fascinating. I mean, going back to one of the things you were saying is to know what it is that you want. But I think there could be a lot of folks out there who have no idea what it is that they're looking for. And to that point, I've heard you mention that you are all about folks looking for interesting jobs but not actually applying yet. It's almost like this stage of exploration where you're almost trying to, like, see what it is that exists that you didn't even know exists that's out there. And so what does that even look like aside from getting off the couch, leaving your home, taking care of yourself, like, going back to the, like the digital world? Yes, there is real life networking that can take place by leaving home. But does this mean, like, perusing the job boards online just to see kind of what strikes your fancy?
- [34:19]
Marlo Lyons
No, not really. Because I think you get lost in that, then you wind up falling back into that. Oh, I can do that. Oh, I can do that. Oh, I can do that. Remember, you hear the word can all the can, all the cans, right? So actually, I tell people, don't look at the job boards and actually go back to what's. What excites you, what gives you energy, what depletes you, what depletes your energy, and those are your values, right? Is identify those things and then translate them into values, right? And what do those values mean? So let me give you. Give me an example here. Tell me what. Tell me something that excites you in your life.
- [34:53]
Joel
Matt is physical fitness buff.
- [34:57]
Marlo Lyons
Okay? So physical fitness, great.
- [34:59]
Matt
Personal finance, I mean, literally. So we're not looking for jobs because we love what it is that we do. So I'm gonna give you the nerdy response.
- [35:05]
Marlo Lyons
Okay, so finance. So you love. Okay, so you love finance. What about finance? Do you like?
- [35:09]
Joel
I think we like talking about it. We like having a take. We like helping people. And so that service, helping people, our.
- [35:15]
Matt
Audience stands out, right? Like, anytime you're, you know, and I'm sure you see this too, being a coach, being able to connect with folks and seeing their life improve, it's what's wild.
- [35:23]
Marlo Lyons
You love finance, you love to talk about it, you love helping people, you love service. Service, you know, helping other people, and you like connecting with people. Those are all values, right? So then I would dig into each one of those and I'd say, well, you like to talk, you like to help people. What does that mean for you? Right? And we dig in deep on that. And I'd say, okay, you like to service people. What does that mean for you? You like to connect with other people. What does that mean for you? And you dig into that. You dig deeper and deeper and deeper, and you come up with what it means. What does finance truly mean to you? And then from there, you can look for jobs that align with that value of finance. Because some people, like, for me, I don't love finance. I do the bills in our family. And I can tell you there's nothing I hate more when the bills come in and I have to pay them and then log them, right? And finance stresses me out, quite frankly. And so I don't love finance. So, you know, for me, if I'm a person who I say, oh, well, you know, I love finance because I like having money. I like having money and I like going on vacation. That's a very different value than I like servicing people and helping people and connecting with folks to improve their lives. Right? So it's the same. It's the same word, but it's a different value. So you have to understand. And neither of them are wrong. There's no wrong here or right. So you have to decide, what does that value mean to me? And then you look for jobs that align with that, with the values that you have. Now, AI is great for this. For those who can't afford personal coaching, they can use AI and just say, okay, I love finance because it means helping people and connecting with other people to help them improve their lives. What value aligns with that? And if you type that into AI, you will get a list of values. Then you look at the one that resonates the most, and that's what the value is.
- [37:08]
Joel
What we talked about, all those can jobs, you're like, maybe I should apply for it, because I can do that. Well, what are the common excuses that you hear from people you're coaching? You know, and then what do you say to them when they say, well, I can't get that job? Almost the opposite of the canned jobs. It's like, well, that sounds so awesome, but I don't have the resume to get that thing that I want. What's your response there?
- [37:31]
Marlo Lyons
Yeah, so too often people build resumes based on what they've done. In fact, 90, probably 95% of people build their resume based on what they've done, which sounds intuitive. It does sound intuitive. And it's obvious, right? Like, hey, I worked at this company, and here's what I did. And here are the accomplishments I did. Here's the problem. It's not a forward looking resume, meaning it doesn't align with the job that you want. It is everything you've ever done. And if you've worked in multiple different types of jobs, then there's no through line, which we talked about earlier. You need the through line. Right? So if I decide that I want to work in a specific field, everything under each job has to relate to that specific specific field or that specific job. And if I just have a list of things that I've done, not everything under there is going to relate. So here's an example. When I worked at Viacom, I was so proud of the fact that I got a I got language in the Gang of Eight immigration bill on how reality participants could appear on camera in shows that were not competitions without having to have a visa. Because right now they need a visa if they're not in a competition show. And I was so proud of myself. I lobbied and I went to Washington like it was the coolest thing ever. Right? Had nothing to do with my day job, but it was so cool. It has absolutely nothing to do with hr, Nothing. So it's not on my resume anywhere because it has nothing to do with it. Even though it was one of my coolest accomplishments ever. But if you wanted to be a.
- [39:03]
Joel
Lobbyist, you'd stick it in top.
- [39:05]
Marlo Lyons
Absolutely. And the bill didn't pass or anything. But that's the point. It's not what you've done, it's what you've done that's relevant and what you've done that's relevant. Especially if you're transitioning careers, it may only be 1% of what you've ever done, but that's all that's relevant. And that's how my clients move from one career to another. I'll give you an example and I hope he's okay with this, but worked with a performer on a main stage in ballet and retired in their mid to late 30s and worked a little bit as a technical director and wanted something more. Now they work in digital account management or somewhere in the account management space. And so massive swings. Massive swings. Right. Or a 12th grade English teacher that now works at a major, major, major household name tech company in program management. Right. Because you're pulling out that 1%, that 1% that they have experience in that space and your whole resume is filled with that. And then on top of that, your interview is not about all those other things. It is about the 1% when you're talking about and giving stories.
- [40:20]
Matt
I'm writing so much that you're saying down, like, you are giving such great takeaways. Like, we're talking about this too, I guess earlier we're talking about it from somebody who's getting fired. But what you're speaking to now is even if you've got somebody, I think, who doesn't even necessarily feel fulfilled at the work that they're doing, I think there's a lot of listeners who might feel stuck in a career because they've made a lot of progress up that specific ladder. Their earnings are great. But what have you found that snaps your clients to the ultimate reality? Like, is it basically face. Is it causing them to face their mortality? Is it. I mean, like, what is it that helps folks to have the gumption to have the kind of tenacity to say no to the thing that they feel like that they're sort of handcuffed to?
- [41:05]
Marlo Lyons
Yeah, it's courage, man. It takes courage to put away and say, thank you, career for the last 20 years. I'm gonna go do something different. And it takes. It's hard work. I tell every client how hard this work is gonna be. It's gonna be the hardest work they've ever done, because they're looking inside themselves. Right? And you're evaluating yourself, and you're thinking about, what do I want? And that's a really hard question to answer, but we always get to that answer. And so I think for people that are stuck in a job, what I can say to you is that you're never stuck. You really aren't. What you are is someone who doesn't have the courage at the moment to take that leap of digging into yourself and figuring out what you want. And I think that, you know, people use the word stuck, or they're so busy, or they're, you know, and I say busy, like at work. Right. Or busy in life. And they stay on this treadmill because guess what? It keeps them from having to actually do that hard work. It's safe.
- [42:08]
Joel
It's reliable.
- [42:09]
Marlo Lyons
It's the devil you know. You know, you're at the. At the office, you already know how bad it is. It's the devil you know, And I'll just stay in this. Or, oh, I'm close to retirement. Or, oh, I'm, you know, I have three kids. Or, oh, my health isn't great this week or this month, or I'm pregnant. Oh, I'm. I can't even begin to tell you how many People reach out and say, but, you know, they say, I'm reaching out to you because I really want to make a change. But. And the but is never a but. It's never a real but.
- [42:37]
Matt
They're leaving that back door open just because they're like, hey, I kind of want to talk about this, but really, I don't. Like, like, yeah, I mean, they're choosing not to. They're choosing not to.
- [42:45]
Marlo Lyons
It's a choice. Yeah, it's a choice.
- [42:47]
Joel
On that note, like, I feel like if you get laid off, that is when the conversation is inevitable. Like, yes, you gotta find something else.
- [42:56]
Marlo Lyons
It's your push. Yes, it's your push.
- [42:58]
Joel
For a lot of people, it is that push. And I've seen, like I said, so many people go from something that they kind of enjoyed or didn't really like to something that they love, largely because they were pushed out of the security of the job they had. But what would you say to folks, especially, like we talked about at the beginning of this episode, about how the job market, it's not as great as it was a few years ago? What if you're not loving your job these days? Are there good reasons to leave even in an economic downturn? And how should people think about job hopping?
- [43:30]
Marlo Lyons
I would not leave unless you are independently wealthy or have a lot of money put away that you can, or.
- [43:35]
Joel
You get the job offer from someone.
- [43:36]
Marlo Lyons
Else or you have a job offer from somewhere else. Exactly. I would not leave your current job until you have a new job. I would. And I wouldn't do that because the market is so tight and you don't know how long that's going to take. Unless, like I said, you have the means to do that, then great. I also would not recommend right now that you try to transition careers. I think that there are multiple people who are overqualified or qualified for every single job. They don't need to hire you. Who wants to transition careers? It's not like there's a deficit out there and they need to find somebody. So I wouldn't highly recommend trying to transition careers unless it's really close to what you're doing, but a little bit different. So I wouldn't recommend that necessarily. But I do have people who are doing it right now and are working with me and they are getting interviews. And again, it's all positioning. So I wouldn't recommend leaving a job. But at the same time, I also think life is too short to sit in a job that you absolutely hate. And I don't think that you can compartmentalize your work from your life. I think they both interplay with each other and fulfillment is a holistic thing. It is not an individual thing like, oh gee, well the rest of my life is great, so I'll just sit over here and be miserable. It just doesn't work. And so I think you should start looking and get yourself prepared and figure out what you want and put your resume together that's forward looking and start applying for jobs is what you should do. And quite frankly, network. If you're not ready to go through all of that, start your networking now. That means you don't need anything right now. You're just meeting people and you're getting to know them and they're getting to know you and you're learning about their work and their needs and their gaps of what they have and what they're looking for. And you are thinking about it from the perspective of your experience. And that's you can never, ever underestimate your network and the people that you've built relationships with because most jobs, that's how you're getting jobs these days, is who you know.
- [45:31]
Joel
Yeah, that network is your backbone when it comes to finding the next job. All right, we've got a few more questions we want to get to with you, Marlo, including AI. How does that impact job hunting both on the positive and negative fronts? We'll get to that and more right after this. This message is brought to you by Navy Federal Credit Union. May is Military Appreciation Month and we're celebrating the military community that goes above and beyond every day with Navy Federal Credit Union. Navy Federal was created for the military community and is dedicated to ensuring that its members feel celebrated and honored every single day.
- [46:08]
Matt
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Joel
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- [46:45]
Host 1
Our show is called the Best One yet, but can you introduce it as a Tinder bio? Yeah, this is Jack. That was Nick. We're best friends and ex finance guys who host the Best One yet, the daily podcast merging business news with pop culture. Yep and we have a puppy. Actually, on our podcast we'll tell you how Starbucks borrowed a growth hack from Ludacris. Or that blondes showing their natural brunette hair is an early indicator of a recession. Or why hot take Coming Apple's next product should be an AI Smart toilet. We worked on Wall street, sold a media startup to a tech company, and have done 1500 episodes of this daily show. So whether you're launching a business, aiming for that promotion, or just want to be the best person at brunch, start your morning with our three business stories in 20 minutes. And if you don't use one of our takeaways in your next job interview, we'll give you that puppy. It's a write off the most interesting people follow the best one yet on the Wondery app or wherever you get your podcasts. You can listen ad free right now on Wondery Plus.
- [47:44]
Joel
What does the future hold for business? Ask nine experts and you'll get 10 answers. Will we have another bull market in 2025 or we're going to get a bear market? What about inflation? Will it continue to calm or will higher prices remain sticky? Wouldn't it be cool if someone could invent a crystal ball that would give us some foresight.
- [48:01]
Matt
Well, until then, Joel over 41,000 businesses have future proofed their business with NetSuite by Oracle, the number one cloud ERP bringing accounting, financial management, inventory, HR into one fluid platform with one unified business management suite. There's one source of truth giving you the visibility and control you need to make quick decisions. With real time insights and forecasting, you're peering into the future with actionable data. When you're closing the books out in days, not weeks, you are spending less time looking backwards and more time on what is next. Our business is really small, but if we needed netsuite, we would be pumped about the time the cost savings that it provides. Whether your company is earning millions or even hundreds of millions of dollars, NetSuite helps you to respond to immediate challenges and seize your biggest opportunities.
- [48:48]
Joel
Speaking of opportunity, download the CFO's Guide to AI and Machine Learning at netsuite.com the guide is free to you at netsuite.com howtomoney that's netsuite.com howtomone.
- [49:03]
Matt
We are back from the break again speaking with Marlo Lyons and Joel is referencing AI. So the first rule of AI is to not complain about it.
- [49:14]
Marlo Lyons
Complain about it. It's so fun.
- [49:15]
Matt
Other people see it when you're posting on LinkedIn, but then eventually AI catches on, before you know it, you're getting wiped from databases left and right. Who knows?
- [49:23]
Joel
I don't.
- [49:24]
Matt
I don't know how it works, Marlo. But before we get to that, I want to talk about landing that first job. Because for younger listeners or even parents of teenagers out there, you see that internships are crucial and that high schoolers and college freshmen should be partaking to not wait until, you know, like, your junior year of college. Can you kind of explain the current landscape of internships these days?
- [49:48]
Marlo Lyons
Yes. So internships are critical. That's where you gain experience. But you also learn what you want and what you don't want. And they are critical for trying different things. That's why you're in college, is to try different things and figure yourself out and learn about yourself and learn about what lights you on fire and what makes you excited. So you want to start taking internships your freshman year. I never understood this. And all the power to these kids out there that want to either be camp counselors or want to be CITs or whatever they want to do because they went to sleepaway camp their whole, you know, under, you know, when they were in high school or up till through high school, and now they come back from college and they want to go back and do that again. Unless that's what you want to do for your career, you're wasting time, quite frankly. I don't mean to be rude. I think, look, summer is for having fun. Absolutely. But you can also have fun and do an internship. But you need. You need to get that experience on your resume, because when you don't have that first internship and you're a junior, you're not going to get the first internship. That's the problem. You have nothing on your resume. And being a CIT or a counselor isn't going to help you if you want to work in biopharma. It's just not so.
- [50:56]
Joel
Oh, my gosh.
- [50:56]
Matt
Yeah. You know, so what's so funny is that you are describing my. The college. My summers as a college undergrad, Marlo. And I don't. I'm not at all upset at you for calling that out, because I personally agree with you. I think that the landscape has changed completely, significantly from like, 20 years ago to graduates today. And the kind of effort that needs to be put forward. If you are serious about a particular.
- [51:20]
Marlo Lyons
Career, you have to put in the effort. And, you know, you have friends, right? Your friends have parents, your parents have friends. And then there's the random application online. Okay? You need to leverage all of it, all of it, to get that first internship. And it doesn't have to be full time if they don't or it doesn't even have to be paid. It doesn't matter whether it's paid. Nobody asks you whether it was paid on your resume. It's about gaining skills and experience and capabilities that maybe you didn't have before. So you have to do it. I mean, I just worked with somebody who is in college and was looking for her first internship. And it's a friend of a friend of mine's daughter. And so we were working on her resume, which wasn't forward looking, right. Tried to make it forward looking and cleaned it up a little bit. And then on top of that, and she had great experience, by the way. She had all these like things that she did in high school and that kind of thing. But here we are as a junior trying to get this, this in first. This first big internship with a corporation, right. The big one that she wanted. And she had interviewed at over 100, like, or applied to over 100 places and wasn't getting anywhere. And so we worked on and she interviewed here and there, but she wasn't landing the internship. So we worked on her interview skills to make sure it aligns, you know, with her resume and the things she needed to be talking about. And just landed her very first internship in the right job, like the one, the thing that she wanted. And she's out of her mind, excited. It's about again, understanding what your narrative is, understanding the value you can bring. You got to flip it. It's not about what you want. It's not about I want an internship or I want to come and work at your company so I, I can put it on my resume. It's about the value you can bring to that company during that internship. Can you solve problems? Can you communicate effectively? Can you help with people who are overworked and exhausted, take some of the work off their plate and not be more of a burden while also learning?
- [53:26]
Joel
Yeah. And I think that's particularly true when we're talking about interns, because interns, they need their hands to be held. At least I did when I was an internal. And so how could I learn while I was there while also being of aid to the company as well? Let's talk about AI Marlo, because you had a recent article about getting hired in the age of artificial intelligence. I'm curious from your perspective, how has the burgeoning sector of artificial intelligence changed the approach that job seekers need to take when it comes to trying to find a job is. I'm sure there are helpful elements and harmful ones.
- [54:05]
Marlo Lyons
There are lots of people are using AI to draft their resume. I don't recommend that. It's too generic. They're popping in, you know, the job description and they're popping in their resume and saying, you know, update my resume. And it's too generic and it's too, it's just, it's not crystal clear as the value you can bring to the company. And honestly, there's a lot of companies now that have screeners that can screen out AI generated resumes. So I would not recommend using AI to write your resume. Now if you're working on a bullet point on your resume and you just, you know, it can be cleaner, crisper, it doesn't sound quite like what you're, you know, how you want it to sound and you pop it into, you know, ChatGPT or whatever AI program you're using and you say, can you help me make this sound more dynamic or sound more succinct? Great, go for it. Do that for the bullet point here and there that you need help with. But I wouldn't recommend it. Now, I would use AI though, to do two things. One, I would take the job descriptions that you're interested in and I would pop them into AI and say, pull out all of the keywords and all of the skills and capabilities that are needed for these jobs. That's number one I would do. The second thing I would do is say, you want to be in hr? I would say, hey, AI, give me all of the keywords that are needed to be an HR business partner. Right. Most of them are probably in the job descriptions anyway, but just in case you missed something. And I would make sure that all of those are in your resume somewhere. So that's how I would use it.
- [55:37]
Joel
Is that partly because is the keywords thing? Partly because when you submit a resume to a company, they're filtering your resume through AI in order to. And so they want it. Those, if those keywords are present, you're more likely to get that interview.
- [55:51]
Marlo Lyons
Right. They are filtering your resume through an AI program that is looking for the best match. Not everybody has the time to look through 2,000 resumes. And so if you don't have the bare minimum match, it won't even be surfaced. And then also that goes to years of experience as well. Like if you see something that says require seven years experience and you have six, don't apply because if it's a federal contractor, they can't even look at your resume because it doesn't meet the minimum requirements. So you have to at least have the minimum requirements before they'll even look at it. And really what recruiters do is they look at the first batch of 50 that came in, then they look at the next batch of 50 and the next batch of 50, and if they have 5, 6, 7 great candidates and they screen them and they all sound great, they're kind of done. They're not looking at the last thousand resumes or the last 1800 resumes. They're looking at the first ones that come in. So you have to apply early, you have to have all the keywords. You have to ensure that your resume resonates with and aligns with and is forward looking to the jobs that you're applying for. And if you know what you want, your resume should not need to be revised with every job you apply for. Because if you want to work as an HR business partner, the job is the same everywhere. You might bring value a little bit differently at different places, but the job is the same. So if you did it right the first time, you should not need to update it. It's when you don't know what you want that's the problem. And then your resume gets all convoluted and messy because you're updating it every week. You shouldn't have to. If you know what you want, then.
- [57:26]
Matt
It just looks like this, yeah, Frankenstein, like, yeah, quilted version of what your resume actually could be. But I like what you're saying. What I'm hearing you say is to not overly rely on AI. Like, don't see it as a substitute, but certainly use it as a tool to help you to craft what it is that you're looking to put together for companies out there.
- [57:46]
Joel
Marlo, thank you so much for taking the time to join us today on the show. Where can our listeners find out more about you and what you're up to?
- [57:53]
Marlo Lyons
Sure, you can find me on my website, which is marlolionscoaching.com you can listen to my podcast work Unscripted. I am on all the socials. You can find me on LinkedIn, on Instagram, Facebook. Sometimes I do a little bit of TikTok here and there. I'm not not great on TikTok, to be honest with you. So you can find me in all those different places. And, you know, feel free to reach out if anybody needs any help with their career.
- [58:22]
Matt
Thank you so much for taking the time to talk with us today. Marlo.
- [58:25]
Marlo Lyons
You are welcome. It was great chatting with you guys.
- [58:27]
Joel
All right, Matt, let's hope everyone out there listening gets to keep the job they have. If they love it, let's hope for the best and let's also hope that.
- [58:35]
Matt
They don't love it, but plan for the worst. Yeah, maybe they.
- [58:38]
Joel
Maybe this is like the kick in the pants that some of our listeners need to start hunting for something that they're going to be more happy to.
- [58:45]
Matt
Go to listen to you adopting the kick in the pants that is typically your language terminology.
- [58:50]
Joel
Yeah.
- [58:51]
Matt
I want to let you go first as far as the big takeaway because I wrote down so much. Like there's so many notes that I took and Nice. Not one liners, but just great pieces of wisdom when it comes to looking at your new potential career out there.
- [59:04]
Joel
I think one of the most game changing things that she said in this conversation was think about what you want to do versus what you can do. And if I were.
- [59:11]
Matt
Versus the cans.
- [59:12]
Marlo Lyons
Yeah.
- [59:12]
Joel
If I were to look at some of my early work experience, well, hey, I can work in fast food. I can do some pressure washing here and there. I mean, they're just some jobs that I worked for a printer printing shop for a while. Like, those are things that I could do. They weren't things I wanted to do long term. They worked for the time. Right. But I had my sights set on other things, like things that really did light me up. And so. So I think the further you get in your career, the harder it can be to think about your resume and to think about your next job prospect in that way. But I think it is really important because work is something we do spend a fair amount of our time in our lives doing. And I don't think it's that we should look for this end all, be all job that helps us feel fulfilled in every single way. I mean, there are other elements of our lives too that matter. Family, friends. Right. Stuff like that. Community. But I think it's okay to say what is it that I actually want to do with my life and with my 40 hours or whatever that I'm giving to work each and every week and let that at least start to make your mind run wild in a good way about what's possible. Totally.
- [60:21]
Matt
Yeah. In a similar note, when she was talking about getting your resume together, she was talking about how it's not about what you've done, but it's about what you've done that's relevant to what you want to do. And I love that, like everything that she said Today had a similar melody to it, where it's very much forward looking as opposed to backwards looking. And that's essentially what you're pointing to here as well. It's not about what you've done in the past, it's about what you want to do in the future. And my big takeaway is gonna be about for folks out there who have been fired. She said three things you gotta post on LinkedIn, so you need to be proactive. And she talked about the algorithm and why that plays to your favor. You gotta leave the house. So whether it's networking or going out for coffee, like, literally being out there irl, brushing shoulders with people, that's gonna pay dividends. But then aside from that, you gotta take care of yourself as well. Figure out the things that are gonna keep your energy levels up so that you don't enter into some sort of, like, depressive spiral where, you know, in a few months, a few months down the road, you don't even find yourself having a desire to do anything.
- [61:19]
Joel
Yeah.
- [61:19]
Matt
I felt like there was three awesome takeaways for folks who might find themselves in this position already.
- [61:24]
Joel
Yeah, agreed. All right, let's get back to the beer real quick. This one is called Art Car IPA by St. Arnold Brewing out of Texas. What were your thoughts on this ipa, brother?
- [61:35]
Matt
It's just funny. He called me brother. And it's got, like a stained glass looking. I don't know, a minister. Not a minister. What do you call that kind of sort of work?
- [61:45]
Joel
Like. Like a priest, bishop or something? Yeah.
- [61:47]
Matt
Which is funny because this is a beer out of Texas and you don't typically associate the Catholic Church with beer.
- [61:54]
Joel
Cans, but this brewery is called St. Arnold. I don't know. I'd be curious to know.
- [61:57]
Matt
Arnold. Yeah, dude, this was like a classic American ipa. It wasn't overly bitter. It drinked really clean. It didn't have, like, that huge vegetal hop freshness going on. This feels like OG Classic American ipa. Really good.
- [62:11]
Joel
This reminds me of another IPA we had from Texas recently that just had that. It wasn't like the. The hazy, juicy variety, but it also wasn't the super bitter, overwhelmingly west coast.
- [62:21]
Matt
Vibes, was it the Rose Smash IPA one. Yeah.
- [62:24]
Joel
And I'm like, oh, this is. This is like that. This might be a little further in the west coast direction from that one, but maybe Texas, man, they're doing IPAs differently.
- [62:31]
Matt
Doing some good stuff.
- [62:32]
Joel
I can respect it.
- [62:33]
Matt
Totally agree. All right, that's going to be it for this episode. Find our show notes up on the website and we'll link to Marlo's recent books and where you can check those out. Of course, our website is howtomoney.com but buddy, that's going to be it. So until next time, Best friends out. Best friends out.
- [63:03]
Host 1
This podcast is supported by Talkspace.
- [63:06]
Matt
When my husband came home from his military deployment, readjusting was hard for all of us.
- [63:12]
Host 1
Thankfully, I found Talkspace.
- [63:14]
Matt
Talkspace provides professional support from licensed therapists.
- [63:17]
Marlo Lyons
And psychiatric providers online.
- [63:20]
Matt
Military members, veterans and their dependents ages 13 and older can get fast access to providers, all from the privacy of.
- [63:27]
Marlo Lyons
Their computers or smartphones.
- [63:28]
Matt
I just answered a few questions online and Talkspace matched me with a therapist. We meet when it's convenient for me and I can message her anytime. It was so easy to set up.
- [63:38]
Host 1
And they accept tricare.
- [63:40]
Matt
Therapy was going so well, my husband and I started seeing a couples therapist through Talkspace too. Talkspace works with most major insurers, including Tricare.
- [63:50]
Host 1
Match with a licensed therapist today@talkspace.com military go to talkspace.com military to get started today. That's talkspace.com military in a world of economic uncertainty and workplace transformation, learn to lead by example from visionary C Suite.
- [64:10]
Marlo Lyons
Executives like Shannon Schuyler of PwC and.
- [64:13]
Host 1
Will Pearson of iHeartMedia, the Good Teacher.
- [64:16]
Marlo Lyons
Explains the great teacher inspires.
- [64:19]
Host 1
Don't always leave your team to do the work. That's been the most important part of how to lead by example. Listen to leading by Example executives making an impact on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. You're listening to an iHeart podcast.