Joel (2:15)

Today we're talking about cultivating a wealthy mindset with Shang Saavedra.

Matt (2:38)

That's right. Our guest today is a financial coach. She's the founder of the site Save my sense. And she's now the author of the book wealth is a Mindset, which was recently published. And Shang Saavedra. She lives at the intersection of mental health, Joel, and financial wealth. Little. I was trying to rhyme a little bit there. But she uses her own experiences like achieving financial independence by the age of 31, by the way, which is amazing. In order to help others to achieve their own financial goals. And really like not just their financial goals, but their overall life goals is. I am pretty sure that Shang would agree that simply having more money like that isn't the goal in and of itself, but rather it's a means to an end. That's how we talk about it here on the show. And we're pumped to get into everything related to personal finance today. Shang, thank you so much for taking the time to speak with us today.

Shang Saavedra (3:31)

Matt and Jewel, I am so excited to be here. Thank you so much for having me.

Joel (3:35)

We're excited too. Shung and so much ground to cover. But first question, we got to get out of the way. What's your craft beer equivalent? What do you like to splurge on? I mean, we know Matt just said you achieved financial independence by the age of 31. So you're, you're saving, investing for your future. But what do you splurge on simultaneously?

Shang Saavedra (3:50)

I know you guys wanted me to say wet food for my cats. Unfortunately, that is not my splurge. My splurge, which actually doesn't even cost all that much money, it's more time and effort, is lay flat business class seats on leisure flights with my husband.

Joel (4:07)

I've still never done that. That sounds amazing.

Matt (4:08)

I've never done it.

Joel (4:09)

Okay, so time and effort.

Matt (4:10)

One of these days, Joel, we'll be able to make it happen.

Joel (4:13)

How do you pull it off?

Shang Saavedra (4:15)

We use points and miles. So we're those people who, you know, rack up points using credit card bonus signups, and then you just wait for the right opportunity to book them, usually about a year in advance.

Matt (4:26)

Nice.

Joel (4:27)

How many more miles does it take to get the lie. Flat seat, let's say going to Europe or something like that, versus how many miles does it take to sit in the back of the plane where Matt and I sit?

Shang Saavedra (4:37)

Typically? I mean, it's going to vary by airline and the way that they. They price it. But yeah, usually it's like three to four times more. But if you're able to find sweet spots, that's the thing, like the, the way that they work is that some airlines price it higher for regions that are more higher demand than others. And so for example, this is a interesting one. We used to do this thing where we flew Turkish Airlines through a co chair with United to go from mainland US to Hawaii because it's not a popular route for Turkish Airlines, but it's a popular route for Americans. So Turkish Airlines prices at a very low rate and that's how you do it.

Matt (5:17)

Very cool. Okay.

Joel (5:18)

I swear we turned this into a travel hacking.

Matt (5:20)

I know we weren't even planning to talk about travel hacking, but how much.

Shang Saavedra (5:23)

Secret Secrets of the Rich travels, right?

Matt (5:26)

How many of your of that points accrual process has to do with you? Has to do with like your business, the fact that you are self employed, you've got your own company versus personal spending.

Shang Saavedra (5:38)

You can do it completely off of personal spending. That being said, it's not that we spend a lot, it's actually that we give a lot. We basically route most of our charitable giving through our credit cards in chunks at a time. And that's how we're largely able to meet those minimum spends of, you know, a couple thousand dollars to get the high signup points. That being said, yes, I also use business credit cards for that. But actually my husband would say, hey Sean, are you going to meet this amount of business spend in this time frame? I'm actually like, no, I run a pretty low cost business. I'm sorry.

Matt (6:14)

Shang, you say that you had an abundant supply of ambition and we've kind of dug into your story a little bit. It seems like an understatement because you graduated from Harvard with an economics degree. Shortly thereafter you got a consulting gig. But then on top of that, you still launched a photography business on the side as a way to make some additional money.

Joel (6:35)

I guess I sound lazy.

Matt (6:36)

Like, what drives you? Like, why were you going after all of these multiple options all at once as opposed to, I don't know, especially given your, I guess, the pedigree, it seems like someone like you would sort of double down on the thing that would allow most folks to move the needle in a significant way. But I guess I want to kind of get a peek into your thought process there.

Shang Saavedra (6:55)

Probably driven by two emotions, one being revenge and the other one being curiosity, I guess. Is that an emotion? I'm not sure. Revenge. I actually talk about this in the beginning, the introduction of my book. I was heavily bullied throughout middle school and high school for being a nerd. And I was like, you know what? It's time for the revenge of the nerd. So I was just on this blazing path in my early 20s to say I'm going to prove all those high school bullies wrong by just being freaking accomplished. And it's so silly to think about it now because I'm 39 now I'm like, who were my high school bullies? I don't remember their names. How am I going to even find them? And to show them, hey, Shang made it. But that was the first driving emotion. And then curiosity and management consulting. It's a great job. But in the beginning when you're that first year analyst, it is pretty much a research slog. Like you're doing the worst kind of grunt work. And a lot of it is just doing a lot of googling and cleaning data. And I had a creative side to me and I had no outlet for it. Fortunately I had enough photography training. I'm like, well, let's just try to run a photography business. I really don't know how that came to my mind as like the way to solve my boredom. But that was what I decided to do. And that thankfully actually became a huge cornerstone of my ability to build wealth because I didn't spend a cent from that business, just invested everything from it.

Joel (8:23)

Wow. Well, you and Matt have that in common. Matt was longtime photographer as well.

Matt (8:28)

My wife and I launched it. Yeah. Back in 2007. So amazing. Unlike you, I didn't go to Harvard, I didn't have this consulting gig. So we definitely were spending the money that we're making. But still we were able to start investing at a pretty young age.

Joel (8:41)

Some people call UGA the Harvard of the South. Right, exactly.

Matt (8:45)

And it was a blast. I mean, had a ton of fun doing it.

Joel (8:47)

Sean, how big did that business get and was it tough to balance having a full time job? That seems like it was somewhat demanding with a side hustle that seems like it became a little unruly at times too.

Shang Saavedra (8:59)

Yeah, I was working, I mean at times 90 hours a week because 760 to 70 dedicated to my full time job. And then the remaining, which is mostly late nights and weekends dedicated to photography. I was being published nationally like I was known. Like some people would pay for me to fly to photograph their weddings. And I was just like, I don't know how I got through that. Probably just by sheer stamina of being young. I think that's really the best way to describe it.

Joel (9:27)

If you're talking to someone now who says sees your story, they see financial independence at 31, they're maybe on the cusp of starting a career. Would you recommend that Strategy or that's a tough thing too, right? Is because you go through something so arduous and it got you where you wanted to be. But it also, it didn't have, it didn't come without downsides.

Shang Saavedra (9:49)

Correct. I missed out the vast majority of my five year college reunion, which is the fun one because that's the one where you party the most. Because I was photographing two weddings that same weekend and I just could not do it. And I did. Over time, even though it changed. I had a clear reason why I wanted to do this. First it was just make as much money as freaking possible. And then this reason eventually evolved to do it now. Have financial freedom now so that when things get harder, you can pull back. And because I was committed to those reasons, understanding that it comes at certain costs and I weigh those pros and cons and I'm like, I'm willing to do this. I went for it. And when people read my story, I'm not saying this has to be for everyone. I'm just saying, hey, take what you want from, from it and learn from how over time I understood that mental health is a huge part of this. And at the very least make your mental health front and center whenever you decide to pursue something like this.

Matt (10:55)

Totally. It's not surprising that you like, I feel like you were taking a very research based, analytical approach to front loading the sacrifice like this. So going back to photography, like, you know, you mentioned how like y'all weren't touching that money at all with when you got married. You also chose to live off of the lower of your two incomes, which I think to most folks sounds pretty radical. Was this also to essentially be able to give you and your husband for y'all to have more options down the road?

Shang Saavedra (11:20)

Ah, yeah. I actually credit him for, for the idea because that was not mine. He had been very influenced with a lot of readings, particularly this one book by Elizabeth Warren where it detailed how the 2 income trap today. It's actually harder for families with 2 incomes today to live at the same standard living than you know, several decades ago. Cost of living has just risen significantly. And he noted, look, the reality is she, you are a female. You can't change that, not really. And the moment you become pregnant, the moment you become a mother to a young child, it's going to affect your career, it's going to affect your ability to really push that career. So what if we kind of head off that fear of loss of income or loss of career trajectory by just securing it now where we don't have kids. And the best way to do that, the easiest way to mathematically approximate it, is we live off of one income today, so that in the future, if one of us does not earn income, we wouldn't be that financially affected.

Joel (12:25)

Yes. Like, you don't have to change a thing then, because you're used to just the one income. And, yeah, there are some extra expenses having that baby, but you've also funneled aside that income for so long that you can tap into some of those resources when. When or if you decided to stop working.

Shang Saavedra (12:43)

Exactly.

Joel (12:43)

But why do you think nobody does that, Sean? I mean, it feels like it's. It's incredibly countercultural to have that money flowing in and then to say, we're not spending a dime of it.

Shang Saavedra (12:53)

Yeah, well, it's not really celebrated. It's not sexy. It's not made for Instagram, for example. And also, I think that most of the conversations that I entered in business school, going to women's, you know, women MBA panels and all those corporate panels, is they're trying to encourage you to try to figure out and make it as both a working person and also as a mom to young children. They're like, you can still make it work. And what my husband and I are saying is, let's be real. It's not gonna be the same. And I don't think most people want to confront that reality. They want to ignore it or use more money to solve for it. Whereas we're saying we're not using more money to, at that time, to solve for it. We're building up the financial base now. But again, that comes with the sacrifice of not being able to party or travel or eat out as much as our MBA counterparts and just leading more of a quiet, frugal life.

Matt (13:53)

How much of that do you think has to do with your happiness now? Like, literally, Joel and I were having a conversation this morning as we're walking to go get some coffee. But how. When you shift your expectations for what you are looking for in life, like, so, you know, we did the quote, unquote, smart things when we were younger, we started investing, but because of that, it meant that there wasn't, I don't know, like, a super high bar as to what? Like, to the degree of partying that we should have been doing. And so then you move on in life and you enter into a new stage. And the fact that we're not doing those things, it's like we've sort of set our expectations back in our 20s of what we want our lives to look like. Therefore, like, right now, we both feel incredibly blessed, incredibly happy.

Joel (14:35)

These are the salad days.

Matt (14:36)

Yeah. Yeah. Do you feel that way? I mean, just because of the fact that you and your husband, that y'all set yourselves up for so many different options like that?

Shang Saavedra (14:43)

Yeah. I mean, who gets to claim that she can basically nap anytime she wants once the kids are in school?

Matt (14:49)

That's pretty nice.

Shang Saavedra (14:50)

Yeah. That is literally my day. I sometimes choose to nap on top.

Joel (14:55)

Of that financial independence. You can nap whenever you want. That's great branding.

Shang Saavedra (14:58)

I know. Nap whenever you want. I also, I was. I was in a very corporate culture for many years. I worked for two Fortune 500 corporate companies. And you cannot be your authentic self when you're high up in corporate. You serve shareholders. You report to the C suite. You have to walk, talk, and act a certain way in order for you to maintain job security. And that also comes with. I mean, literally, there's email chains where sometimes you have to keep track of 50 people that just, you know, that's a lot of work. And I walked away from that because I was like, I'm kind of sick and tired of it, and I don't need to do it. And that takes away so much weight off of my shoulders every day. I started noticing I. I left corporate middle of 2023 after having my second child, that I was just, like, I was starting to just be happy again in the morning, looking forward to waking up, driving down with nary a thought on my mind, no stress, no pressure, other than, okay, let's make sure my kids don't off themselves. That's challenge. But it's a different set of challenges that is incredibly fulfilling for me. And I don't feel like I'm giving away the best time of my life to somebody who doesn't really deserve it.

Joel (16:13)

Yeah, that's great. Okay. To get there, though, you had to not only have the two incomes and live on just one of them. You had to then, I guess, dial back the expenses significantly compared to your peers who are in similar positions. The New York Post ended up calling you the Millennial cheapskate. I'm curious, like, what lengths were you going to to reduce expenses? And maybe what are some of the more odd ones? Those are always fun to go over, the things that people mostly aren't thinking thinking about.

Shang Saavedra (16:42)

I think I was in such a bubble with my husband that it didn't occur to me how weird we were. And I'm not sure if this is even weird. So I'll Just talk the top things that really move the needle. Number one, we got into a rent stabilized apartment which is clutch because your rent doesn't really go up, but it's below market rent. I think relative to our peers we were probably saving two, maybe $3,000 a month relative to rents they were paying. But granted the department is ramshackle. The toilet often breaks and there was a two burner stove. No prep space. You know, it's missing some key skeleton bones. And then another one which I think most New Yorkers can relate to is no car ownership. Now I live in Southern California. You cannot get anywhere without a car. It's actually very significant part of your budget because it's paying for the car, then the gas if you have a gas car, the insurance which always goes up and the maintenance when the car starts to break down, not to mention registration fees, et cetera, et cetera. So those were number two, number one. And number two is housing and transportation. Number three came down to our daily food. Both my husband and I worked jobs where they would compass food at night if we work past a certain hour, which we almost always did at that point. So we were smart about which restaurants we ordered from such that it would give us enough for leftovers the next day. So no need to pack lunch. So basically Monday to Friday spent very little on groceries. As I mentioned earlier in the podcast, we used a lot of points and miles to travel at that time. Not lay flat seats. This is normal economy. And at that time it was still okay to crash at friends houses and not get a weird look because we offered the same then clothing that we rarely bought clothing. And when I did, I did it off of sample sales clothing swaps of my friends consignment. Poshmark had just started. So it's buying on Poshmark and ebay and also like by virtue of having a tiny apartment, it was 420 square feet. You just can't own a lot of things.

Matt (18:50)

You weren't buying a lot of stuff.

Shang Saavedra (18:51)

Yeah, yeah. So I mean I borrowed like hiking gear about from a friend who hiked a lot. Sometimes I would just go without some things like hey do I really need to have this or can something else be used instead? And you just learn to live off of very little throughout. So it's. It's hard to say what really moved the needle. I think it was literally just like looking at every spending category in our life and asking ourselves what is it that we're truly trying to get at and can we get at that with a Relatively low cost.

Matt (19:23)

Well, I mean, it sounds like. Sounds like you addressed everything. I mean, literally starting with the biggest ones, right? Housing, then transportation. You address food, you address clothing. Like, these are all the spending categories. And so if you have a. If you're challenging yourself in some way in each one of those categories, you're going to see a massive savings rate. And it's fascinating, too. I mean, like, I hear you saying, like, talking through all these areas of life, and it tells me that you've got to be on the same page as your husband. You said that you give him credit with, you know, hey, we're only going to live on one of our incomes. Were you looking for that, or were you. Did you find yourself naturally drawn to that? Because it almost sounds like he may have been the original FIRE convert. Like, maybe he kind of came across it. Correct me if I'm wrong, but I'm curious if you. How important you think that is, to have a partner who's fully on board like that.

Shang Saavedra (20:08)

I think you need to have 100% trust in your partner should you choose to marry them. And even though at the time I couldn't really see what was ahead, partially because I was still like, well, I don't know, I think we'll keep working. It wasn't. We weren't going for fire. We were going for financial security in the event of having a child. So that's very different. And I later learned that we were doing things that the FIRE community was doing. And I was like, oh, okay, I didn't know that this is called fire. And at first I did fight against it because I had not resolved a lot of my own issues related to friendship and mental health and things like that. So in the process of me fighting the budget and trying to make it work, because I earnestly wanted us to have a good marriage and I wanted to make the budget work, but I was the one that was spending over budget for several months. That's how I came to realize this had nothing to do with my math skills, with my budgeting skills, which I was already pretty good at, but everything to do with my attitude and where I was deriving joy and meaning from. And once I realized that that was the root cause and I started addressing that, we were able to align much more quickly going forward on our financial goals.

Joel (21:21)

You guys had some disagreements along the way, right? That's kind of what you're hinting at, too. What were those conversations, like, when you're talking about savings rate and the ideal savings rate, where to pare Back what the budget should look like. Because I love that you point out kind of the change that needs to happen and what brings you meaning. But there is also the reality too that you might say, I don't know, a 70% savings rate. Do we actually need to hit that?

Shang Saavedra (21:46)

I definitely challenged it because I wanted to, quote, unquote, enjoy more life. Now I was the more social one in the relationship. I wanted to see my friends more often. And I felt restricted by the budget. There were networking events that I gave up on because I was like, the registration fee is too much for my networking budget for that month. And the main kind of argument between us was I thought I had a much longer career to go and I thought that we could just continue to make more money and enjoy a little bit more. And he was looking ahead at the reality of being a parent to a young child. And he's thinking, you know, that might not be the case. And it is actually very meaningful to dedicate the young years towards focusing on your children instead of the career. But obviously because neither of us were parents at the time, it was really hard to understand what that actually meant. But over time, our other friends began having kids. I kind of saw that happen. And also I was able to fulfill my own social desires without having to splurge on eating out with my friends like that. I just figured that out, problem solved it, and we came closer to sharing the same vision of what is the freedom that we're truly working towards. And I finally learned over time that joy, that freedom is not going to come from a career. It's not going to come from fancy food and nice clothing. It's truly the freedom to do whatever the heck you wanted to do.

Joel (23:17)

Like nap.

Shang Saavedra (23:18)

Yeah.

Matt (23:20)

I'm curious just to get super practical here. I think I heard you say something about a career networking budget. Did you have an actual line item for. For that? And like, I mean, how specific how to the penny did you get with your monthly budgets?

Shang Saavedra (23:34)

Yes, at the time we were very specific in line. Like we had a live budget for food at home versus food outside and entertainment and clothing and all of that networking was important because we met at business school. You're taught just innately how to network. So for example, he had a membership to a men's networking group. For me it was more one off events in different topics or career things that I was interested in. And for the most part it fit our budget. It was just that every now and then an MBA oriented event would get a bit fancy and I was like, oops that is a little bit outside of my budget. And at that time, the reason why it was so specific was primarily directed at me, the person who overspent the budget. It was just like, okay, if you have a hard time, then we're going to put boundaries on each category to try to guide it. As I got better and better at lowering my spending and also being happy with it, eventually we moved to the system that we have now with this, which is called the trailing twelve month metric. In any, at any point in time, we average out our monthly spending over the last 12 months, which kind of smooths out seasonality, like one time event, you know, Christmas for example, and we take a look and now we're like, wow. Over the last 11 to 12 years of marriage, our trailing 12 month metric, basically it grows in line with inflation. Like obviously, as inflation changes, the costs go up and the main changes are when we add a child to our family. We're now going on to three children by the end of this year. Oh, congrats and thank you. Otherwise it's been pretty steady. Betty. And so because of that, over this, you know, decade plus of working together on our finances, we're no longer nitpicking each thing anymore. And I don't think at this point in marriage you should be. If you are aligning, you work out those disagreements early on and you come to it with an open minded approach of saying my spouse isn't against me. It's worth for each other. It's just we have different approaches. Eventually it's going to get easier.

Joel (25:50)

That's great. Yeah. We've got a lot more we're going to get to with you shung specifically talking about saving money and household finances with kids. We'll talk about that stuff with you right after this. I love what I do. I also love the idea of not doing it one day. But it's getting harder to know the best way to move into the future towards retirement. Right. We hear about inflation, rate hikes, the changing market, got to get the kids through college, build an emergency fund, then there's retirement.

Matt (26:23)

And here is where fidelity comes in. Fidelity can help you find clarity in saving for the future, even as your path and priorities evolve. How? Well, they'll help you to create a free personalized plan that adapts as your priorities change. They'll also show you what's called timely insights, which are small tips on ways to save and invest to help meet your goals. And you can monitor your plan so you can stay on target.

Joel (26:48)

The future is coming and so is retirement. Fidelity can help you take it on your way. Learn more@fidelity.com future expenses charged by your investments and other costs and fees associated with trading or transacting in your account. Apply Fidelity Brokerage Services member NYSE SIPC.

Matt (27:05)

Hi, this is Joel and Matt from the how to Money podcast.

Joel (27:08)

We're almost out of the cold winter months and the way I plan to help myself make it through is to think of the great travel I have planned this summer. Like the road trip I want to take with my kids out west. I'm going to take the whole month off, head towards Seattle for my cousin's wedding by car. I'm already plotting all the different Airbnbs we can stay at along the way.

Matt (27:26)

Nice. I think that's a great idea. There's nothing like a cross country road trip during the summer months, and staying at Airbnbs is a great way to experience all the different towns and cities on the route. Plus, while you're gone for this long stretch of time, you could also be hosting guests in your home on Airbnb, making some extra money in the process. I was an Airbnb host myself for a while and I loved it. It was easy and it gave me the chance to make some extra cash.

Joel (27:50)

And now hosting your home is easier than ever on Airbnb with the Co host feature. Access a network of high quality local co hosts who can help you handle everything from getting your home ready to helping your guests once they arrive with whatever they may need. Find a co host@airbnb.com host.

Matt (28:08)

Right. We are back from the break again speaking with Shang Saavedra and Shung. You mentioned this just a second ago. You touched on how like a few years ago is when you left corporate America and you made that decision. But it sounds like there's sort of like the, like a near death experience that was a part of that. And you've, you know, you're talking about your kids and everything here. Talk to us about the birth of your second child and how that, I guess seemed like it allowed you to reevaluate some things in life.

Shang Saavedra (28:35)

Yeah, things seem fairly normal leading up to, you know, the due date and everything. And the labor and delivery was actually better compared to my first. So nothing seemed out of the ordinary other than I had a cold. I was like, oh, just sneezing a lot. Two days after arriving home, I had so much trouble breathing. One of my kids had an inhaler at the point, so I just started borrowing his inhaler and self medicating do not recommend. And overnight, I started just wheezing so much. I got up, I was telling my husband, I'm like, I can barely breathe. He grabs our oximeter because, you know, everybody since COVID has a blood oximeter measured, and he's like, you're at 90. That does not sound right. And so he rushed me to the hospital. As it turned out, I had an asthma attack. I had adult onset asthma. I had no idea that this was me. And people weren't quite sure either at first because I had recently just delivered. So people are, like, trying to rule out pulmonary embolism and scarier sounding heart issues that I don't know what they're called. But I was put in the ICU for a day, and I was like, am I dying? Why am I in the icu? Like, I just don't have a good sense of, like, you know, how bad it is, because I was also asleep most of the time. And I think I freaked out the moment that I heard some patient's room across from me. There were Buddhist chants coming out of it. And later on, the nurse told me, they're like, oh, yeah, last rites for. For their religion. I was freaked out. I was like, oh, my gosh, people die in the icu. Don't let that be me. I want to go home, want to be with my newborn. I want to be with my family. And that was when I was like, if I. If I were to die today, would I be proud of what I did in my life? And the answer was no. I want to do something different. And I only briefly shared, you know, the birth announcement with my corporate team. My boss reblogged it to the rest of the team. She misspelled my son's name. And she didn't. She, like, completely brushed off the fact, like, she didn't even personally acknowledge to me, oh, my goodness, you were the icu. I hope you're okay. There was none of that.

Joel (30:44)

So impersonal.

Shang Saavedra (30:45)

And I was like, this is even somebody I really want to spend my time with going forward, like eight hours a day. Not really. So sayonara. Sent in my resignation.

Joel (30:53)

Wow. Yeah. And that those events in our lives will crystallize things, will help us see, look at the past and then look towards the future and say, do we want to continue along this trajectory? I'm curious too, though. Like, when you add kids, you've got two, you're adding a third. It changes your expenses, and it also changes maybe some of the wealth goals that you're shooting for, especially. And I'm curious to hear your take on this too. When people say, oh, it's going to cost $300,000 to raise a kid, that's before you even pay for college. One, do you think that's a reality? And two, how has expanding your family maybe changed some of those financial goals?

Shang Saavedra (31:27)

Both my husband and I made the conscious choice to continue working even after hitting our original fire number, because that original fire number was for the two of us. But we're like, that's just the two of us and does not include children. So for several years afterwards, we were still socking away money. So our network continued to grow. Then, recognizing that one of the most expensive things that you would have to pay for yourself out of pocket if both of us became unemployed is healthcare, he made the conscious choice to take a, a job that met a lot of, a lot of lifestyle needs. Like, it's not a super crazy job. He can work remotely, and it came with fantastic health care. And so that's sort of the conscious choice that he made. And also, he wasn't as driven to retire early as I was. So I think those are the two, like, main things that we took care of financially is we worked a little bit longer to build up a larger nest egg which can be used to pay for children's college. And then the one of the larger ongoing costs being healthcare is secured by him still working. Now, that being said, and I do a lot of forecasts for my private coaching clients who also have children, I think there's essentially two decisions that can really change your budget for your child. One is, do you wish to send them to private school From K to 12? And then the second is, how much of their college fund do you wish to fund? For most people, I would say, look, public school is an option and it does save you a lot of money, especially if you have multiple children to send them to public school, K to 12. Then second, I tell most parents, take care of your own retirement before you fund a very large college fund, because by the time your children go to college, you are much closer to retirement than your children are to themselves retiring and saving up for all of that. So don't feel guilty that you have to put your own retirement as a priority over, you know, funding and making sure kids don't end up carrying student loans. Because there's a lot of things that can happen that can lead to your children paying off loans pretty early.

Matt (33:38)

Something I'm hearing you speak to is that it's like you and your husband both have taken A more practical, practical approach to your careers and sort of some of these, like, huge life decisions that you typically make in life. And you've got a chapter in the book talking about your identity not being tied up in your work. And I hear that played out here by the decision that, like, that you said that he made. It sounds like he took a less prestigious job, but maybe that he was able to do that because he had less of his identity tied up into that. But at the same time, you're able to garner all these additional benefits, like amazing flexibility, being able to work from home, awesome health care benefits. Do you think that too many folks are pursuing something? I've heard folks talk about this, like, where it's like, oh, I want to pursue the job, that I want to be able to tell people that I have, like, where I can state a certain title, and they're not thinking about the life that it gains you as much as we should be.

Shang Saavedra (34:29)

Yeah. And I don't know how college commencement speeches go these days, but I am so tired of all those commencement speeches during the time that I graduated from college, which is like, pursue what you love, shoot for the moon, and then you'll land among the stars or something like that. Because these are often given by celebrities and CEOs who were the exception. They're the exception, not the rule. Yes, they made it by following what they loved, but the vast majority of the college graduates they're speaking to are never gonna get to that goal. And it's irresponsible to put out that as the main piece of advice. Whereas I'm much more practical. I'm like, do something that you're good enough at that you can tolerate that, pays the bills, and then figure out what you want to do after that. But if you can't even cover your bills, you're in for a lifetime of angst and worry that it's just not worth it.

Joel (35:23)

I'm curious to talk about the intersection of mental health and finances, too. Sean. That seems like something that you've really thought long and hard about. And you said that most money experts, they don't talk about mental health and money. That that maybe is a little taboo or just something that's left on the table. It does seem like we're seeing that dam begin to break a little bit. What tact do you take when talking about the intersection of our money and our brains?

Shang Saavedra (35:49)

I often have people who are deep in credit card debt or are just really struggling with money come to me. And the phrase they use is, I'm bad with money. It kind of implies that either they weren't educated or they're not managing their finances well, and that's why they're seeing the money problems that they're seeing today. I change that completely by saying if you feel like you're struggling with money, it's indicative of a deeper issue that is usually not related to money at all and everything to do with your mental health and how you got here. So the money problems are just a symptom. The real disease, the real issue is something deeper, usually related to mental health. And I found in my coaching almost always is related to some form of depression, anxiety, or buildup of trauma from childhood. The thing is, there's just not enough funding for any scientific research to really make that case. I looked into PubMed. I started looking for scientific evidence to back up what I intuitively understood from my years of coaching. It just wasn't there. There were bits and pieces. And so in the research from my book, I cobbled together what I felt were the best set of scientific studies that could blend together the story. But I acknowledge that it's still imperfect. But that's the premise of how I coach now, which is, let me understand how you grew up around money. How was it normalized or not? And then were there any really traumatic experiences that you went through both as a child and now? Some of that could include divorce, loss of a loved one, a really bad time at work. And those can actually explain so much of your behaviors today. And then by addressing the root of those events and experiences, then we can actually change people's behaviors and change their money over time.

Joel (37:49)

Hmm.

Matt (37:50)

In your, in your coaching, not to oversimplify things, like I doubt it is this clear cut, but do more of your clients approach their problems and just how they handle their money with an abundance mindset versus folks who come in with more of a scarcity mindset? Do you see more of one or the other? And I'm curious if you. If you think one of those mindsets is more challenging than the other?

Shang Saavedra (38:12)

Yeah, I would say mostly scarcity, because if people had abundance mindset, they're probably actually quite successful because that's what the mindset does and so they wouldn't need my help all that much. So probably I come from a biased opinion that I see more scarcity mindset and I think, you know, it's never going to be perfect, but I think it's helpful for people to have the experience that I have of seeing hundreds and hundreds of people's real numbers to be like, okay, some of this makes sense and some of that is a little bit out of bounds and here's like, what we can start doing to change things. Um, and then also I then personalize my analysis based on like, for example, I'll just give a very broad example. If somebody grew up with seeing one of their parents lose a lot of money on the stock market, it's called availability. Availability bias. They're going to grow up thinking, okay, I'm going to lose money on the stock market if I invest in it. And they're much more likely to avoid investing because they saw such a salient example of a failing. And that scarcity mindset because you over amplify one negative event, whereas in scarce in abundance mindset, you kind of have to fight that childhood tendency and be like, yes, I saw something really, really bad happen, but I'm going to look at the data and convince myself that the vast majority of time that bad thing is not going to happen. And that's very hard for somebody to learn that firsthand.

Joel (39:43)

Yeah, yeah. It takes time. I feel like for people, especially if it's something that happened in childhood, those things. Trying to unwrite the script that gets written is a multi year long process and it takes a lot of intentionality. And if you're not being intentional, that script stays around an awful long time. It just doesn't get undone by itself. Part of it is mindset. But then there are also ingrained habits that people develop when it comes to how they handle money, especially when it comes to reckless use of money. So how do you help people work through changing those, those habits maybe that they've gotten accustomed to?

Shang Saavedra (40:18)

Yeah, I have a client who has. She admitted herself she has a makeup problem. She says, I have a lot of makeup, I never use it up. But I was like, okay, tell me about it. How did this come about? Well, as it turns out, two things. One, her mother placed an outsized, put a lot of emphasis on looking aesthetically pleasing as a value growing up. And two, her mom always told her, always go to the sales section, but she misinterpreted it as a child of when there's a sale, go buy something so you can notice how that got miscommunicated. And so she would always be shopping makeup sales. And then so once I made that connection, I was like, okay, there's a misinterpretation of something that your mom said over and over and over to you. Like literally your brain interpreted as a rule. So we're going to undo that. Rule where I actually said, you know, she has to unsubscribe from all sale emails from her favorite makeup retailers and brands, and then she's going to use up her makeup stash before she buys something new. And that's just a microcosm of little tweaks that I do to help people recognize how their habits have formed over time.

Joel (41:28)

Kind of like emptying that pantry before you go back to the grocery store.

Shang Saavedra (41:31)

Yes.

Matt (41:31)

Yeah. You give great examples, too, throughout your book. Like you're, you're kind of highlighting just the trigger action, reward mechanism. And you quote friend of the show Charles Duhigg in your book as well. He's a. Yeah, y'all are both able to highlight how it is that we are responding to the stimulus around us, that sometimes we just end up becoming our own worst enemies as we thwart our own progress. Shung. We've got more to get to. We're gonna. Yeah, maybe after the break we'll get to the American dream. And whether or not you think that's still possible today, we'll get to that and more right after this.

Joel (42:07)

I love what I do. I also love the idea of not doing it one day. But it's getting harder to know the best way to move into the future towards retirement. Right. We hear about inflation, rate hikes, the changing market, got to get the kids through college, build an emergency fund. Then there's retirement.

Matt (42:24)

And here is where fidelity comes in. Fidelity can help you find clarity in saving for the future, even as your path and priorities evolve. How? Well, they'll help you to create a free, personalized plan that adapts as your priorities change. They'll also show you what's called Timely Insights, which are small tips on ways to save and invest to help meet your goals. And you can monitor your plan so you can stay on target.

Joel (42:49)

The future is coming, and so is retirement. Fidelity can help you take it on your way. Learn more@fidelity.com future expenses charged by your investments and other costs and fees associated with trading or transacting in your account. Apply Fidelity Brokerage Services member NYSE SIPC.

Matt (43:06)

Hi, this is Joel and Matt from the how to Money podcast.

Joel (43:10)

We're almost out of the cold winter months, and the way I plan to help myself make it through is to think of the great travel I have planned this summer, like the road trip I want to take with my kids out west. I'm going to take the whole month off, head towards Seattle for my cousin's wedding by car. I'm already plotting all the different airbnbs we can stay at along the way.

Matt (43:27)

Nice. I think that's a great idea. There's nothing like a cross country road trip during the summer months. And staying at Airbnbs is a great way experience all the different towns and cities on the route. Plus, while you're gone for this long stretch of time, you could also be hosting guests in your home on Airbnb, making some extra money in the process. I was an Airbnb host myself for a while and I loved it. It was easy and it gave me the chance to make some extra cash.

Joel (43:51)

And now hosting your home is easier than ever on Airbnb with the co host feature. Access, a network of high quality local co hosts who can help you handle everything from getting your home ready to helping your guests once they arrive with whatever they may need. Find a co host@airbnb.com host all right, we're back from the break. Still talking with Shang Saavedra. Talking about cultivating a wealthy mindset and just so much good information already. Shung, I'm curious too. Like, we talked about maybe your like, early adult life, but we, we didn't really go back into your childhood and you ended up, you actually lived the first few years of your life in China. I am so curious. How did that experience and the influence of your parents impact your frugality and those early years of marriage? Because, like, we're talking about here, the impact of our family, abortion. It's like it matters in how we think about and how we relate to money.

Shang Saavedra (44:48)

It's so funny you guys asked this because a couple weeks ago I visited Boston, Massachusetts as part of my book tour and I got booked for a private corporate event. That corporation happened to be in my the town that my parents and I grew up in. When we immigrated to the U.S. it was Lexington, Massachusetts. And going back there, wow, brought back all that nostalgia. Like I was trying to relive it in writing my book. But like, being there makes a huge difference. And I realized that as a child, you don't have a lot of context for how you grew up unless your parents chose to tell you, but you don't. And when we were in Lexington at the time, we lived literally like the last street before I would no longer qualify for the school district. We had one of the smallest houses, one of the smallest plots. And I remember my parents did everything. Like they did all the yard work. My mom did so much housework. My parents drove the ugliest, tiniest cars possible. And it was a very frugal life.

Matt (45:52)

Including the green car. You document that in your book, how your dad was able to get the sale or get, get a massive discount because you got the ugly green car.

Joel (45:59)

Oh, my dad used to drive a yellow Subaru, so called the Bruised Banana.

Shang Saavedra (46:03)

Maybe, maybe I'll see that bright green once a year driving around here. I'll point out to my husband, like, that's the color of that car because you never see it. And. But the thing is, my parents did influence me so strongly through that in two ways. One, they normalized frugality as something not to be ashamed of. Like, my parents did things with great attitude. Like, they were just like, look, you just gotta work hard towards what you wanted. Now, I didn't know what they wanted, but I saw them work really hard. And then the second thing was, which is a little bit more misinformed on my end. I literally thought we were the poorest people because my parents way of approaching things just seemed so frugal compared to what I was able to observe every now and then from my friend's parents, which wasn't much. And it wasn't until much later in life when my parents trusted that I actually was responsible with money and they started revealing a little bit more of why they did all that. It blew my mind, like, several instances. One that they actually had enough saved to pay me full ride to any school that I wanted. That was not an expectation that I had. So I was like, where did this come from? My dad said, that's investing. That's like what we've been doing the last several years. And then later on when my parents did choose to share their estate planning stuff with me, and I was like, holy cow, they have way more money than I ever thought that they did. When I realized that was what they were working towards and that this actually is how you build wealth, it just that as a child, I didn't know that that was what it was.

Matt (47:42)

So you said that's how you build wealth. Do you think that that's a good strategy for how you should raise your kids as well? I'm curious if you feel similarly, I guess, in how it is that you, you and your husband are going to raise your kids. Do you think that them essentially, like withholding that information is a part of what allowed you to thrive and to be ambitious and to go out there to create your own thing?

Shang Saavedra (48:04)

My friends, especially those of those are my friends who grew up similarly, as I did in immigrant Asian American households. They're like, oh my God, Sean, your parents are so Asian. Because it is a very common Asian parenting tactic to, you know, withhold information, be really strict on children, and then like, boom, something good happens at the end, but you're like, what the heck? What did they. What did they just put me through? So I would say less emotional manipulation is my hope. But I do see the point, because there is a phrase in Chinese which means wealth is not going to go beyond three generations. The wisdom in that phrase is saying families that are wealthy are eventually going to turn poor again, because the habits and the mindset is the hardest part to teach. And if the wealthy parents then give everything to their children, those children are not going to understand the value of the work ethic that it takes to get there. So my husband and I are trying to walk a finer balance between not giving in to every little thing that our children want, but also giving them a, you know, a well, life that focuses on their health, focuses on their education, while still making it very, hopefully very important for them to see that it takes work. And I think for that reason, we actually both don't outsource all that much household work. Like, our children see us grocery shopping, vacuuming the house, washing the dishes. We could easily outsource all of this, but we actually made a conscious choice to make household work very visible from an early age so that our children understand there's some things that you just have to do in order for life to happen, and that's just part of adulting.

Joel (49:50)

Sean, I feel like there's more pessimism about the American dream these days, and I feel like I'm talking to someone who's achieved the American dream. How would you respond to people who think that it doesn't exist or that it's impossible to achieve?

Shang Saavedra (50:06)

Wealth is coded, and it's your job to break the code. So my parents and I, we were not born into wealth, right? But we did whatever we could. Both my parents, whose English is not as good as mine, as well as myself, where you study how wealthy people think and work, and you just do your best to break into it. Now, do. Do I think I've hit a ceiling at some point in my corporate career? Maybe, maybe not. I don't know, because I didn't stick around long enough to find out. But I do think that believing that there is a lot to do on my end to try to figure out is kind of what kept me going. I'm also not as bought in to the idea that a house is a sign that you've made it. I think that there's a lot of problems with the real estate industry in the US And I think that people can just as easily build wealth through stock ownership, business ownership, instead of real estate ownership. So I'm not tied to what your asset, your income generating asset needs to look like, but at the end of the day, I would say, look, there are going to be things that you're always not going to have control over. You can't control the kind of family you were born into. You can't control, you know, certain demographic aspects that, you know, people might hire you based on, but you can control your attitude and how you choose to work within. Within the confines of the set of circumstances you've been given. And that's what I focus on.

Matt (51:37)

Very cool. Talk about your faith, Shang, because you, you touch on, yeah, your faith, you talk. You touch on God. I'm curious as to how much that impacts how it is that you handle your money. Because, like, I mean, I guess depending on your background, like, Joel and I have conversations and we're like, man, like, sometimes it doesn't really enter the equation at all, but sometimes. But then when you, like, take a step back, you realize that, like, oh, this is kind of propelling or creating like a backstop to how I see so much in the world or how I treat people or how I, I don't know, just like, I guess what I believe the future holds for us. But yeah, I'm curious for you, how does it impact how, how you handle your money? You already mentioned, I guess, your generous spirit there at the beginning of the episode.

Shang Saavedra (52:17)

Yeah, I guess throughout the podcast, one thing I didn't really say was a goal was to get filthy rich. And I think a lot of that has to do with my faith. Being rich is not the goal. It's the freedom that comes with being financially responsible that we were pursuing and an additional layer to our faith. Because I have spoken on panels with Christians where they're like, but how can you reconcile being wealthy with what the Bible says? And I was like, no, the Bible never says money is bad. It says worship of money is bad. And money is actually one of the most frequently mentioned concepts in the Bible because God recognizes that it is one of the most seductive sources of power out there. And so my husband and I, we both believe that we are God's portfolio managers. He chose to give us some amount of income, some amount of wealth, some amount of resources. And it is our job to give to God the greatest return, which is not necessarily financial return, but I think a delicate balance between making sure that the money is invested because the parable of the 10 talents talks about that. And also making sure that the way we choose to spend our money follows God's values and principles.

Joel (53:36)

Yeah, thanks for sharing that.

Matt (53:37)

On that note, Joel's going to take his money and go bury it in the ground.

Joel (53:42)

That would be the opposite, Matt, of what we're taught in that passage. No. Xiang, thank you so much for joining us. We really appreciate it. Where can our listeners find out more about you, what you're up to and your new book?

Shang Saavedra (53:52)

Awesome. Thank you. I'm on Instagram and YouTube under Save My sense, all one word. And you can also find me at my website, savemysense.com Very cool.

Matt (54:04)

We'll make sure to link to all that in the show notes. Xiang, thanks so much for joining us today.

Shang Saavedra (54:07)

Thank you so much. Have a fantastic week.

Joel (54:11)

All right, Matt, that was a great combo. Love Shung and her outlook on life.

Matt (54:15)

Xiang Saavedra.

Joel (54:16)

Yeah. And her history is just a really interesting one. And to turn bullying into this monstrosity financial independence building mindset is pretty cool. So what was your big takeaway from this episode?

Matt (54:31)

Well, I hope she wasn't bullied because her parents were taking the frugal path, you know, but like, honestly, kids will.

Joel (54:36)

Make fun of you for anything.

Matt (54:37)

No. And then like, well, maybe, maybe I should make that my takeaway. The fact that her parents made frugality normal, you know, like, like they talked about it. It was a part. It was their lifestyle. It's something that they did together. I liked how she, even her and her husband have like, said that they want to intentionally do things in their day to day lives to demonstrate to their kids that, like, no, no, no, you don't have a silver spoon in your mouth or anything like that. These are things that you are gonna do and that you are gonna see us doing. And I just, I don't know that really resonates with me.

Joel (55:06)

Even if you can afford to outsource it, like, that's what we do.

Matt (55:08)

Yeah. Intentionally choosing not to in order to instill certain values. It's. It's kind of like embracing the suck. Like embracing the fact that there are hard things that we're gonna do in life. In this case, these are things that we can avoid doing. But it sort of sets the expectation of, well, no matter what, there are going to be hard things. And so the better that we can, I think, overcome those things while we have an. To not necessarily go through those things. Right. Like, you can pay to avoid all of that. I Think it's only going to make you even more resilient and capable of handling the things that. Where there isn't an option to sidestep those. Those hardships.

Joel (55:40)

Yeah.

Matt (55:41)

But yeah, it's kind of a roundabout takeaway for me. What about you?

Joel (55:43)

I'm going to piggyback on that and say on the frugality note, when Shang, at the beginning of the episode, she was essentially outlining her intense resourcefulness. And I think in a world where it is so knee jerk easy to get almost anything we want whenever we want it, whether that means just an Amazon purchase, even if we have the money. Because, oh, yeah, I think I need that. Let me, let me just, you know, one click to buy or whether that is buy now, pay later. Because, like, I want the thing, I don't have the money, but let me sign up for four easy payments to get that thing now. Even though, man, I really should wait and save up to buy the thing I want. That resourcefulness, I think is. It's something that's lacking more and more. It's like a muscle that's atrophied and we could use some of that. And Shung had it in spades. And it was like whenever not everybody can get a rent controlled apartment, right? But then she highlights a bunch of other things that anybody can do, right? Borrowing hiking equipment from a friend. And I think we could all stand to increase our resourcefulness and to maybe do a Google search before we buy something. Like, I don't know, is there a tool rental thing instead of me buying this tool from Home Depot or Lowe's? There are all sorts of ways to reduce our expenses. And part of it just takes a little bit of, like, curiosity and elbow grease.

Matt (57:00)

I love it, man. All right. The beer you and I enjoyed today was called a Three Headed Monster, which is an Imperial Red Ale by New Realm Brewing Company here in Atlanta. What'd you think?

Joel (57:09)

I liked it more than I thought I was going to be honest.

Matt (57:11)

Yeah, totally delicious.

Joel (57:13)

I have not had like an Imperial Red in a long time. And I was like, oh, this is. This is like hoppy. This is. It's big and it's unique. So I really flavorful though.

Matt (57:25)

Yeah.

Joel (57:25)

I was like, oh, man, I have. It's been so long since I've had this style. I used to. I remember enjoying this style. I thought maybe I'd grown past it. But no, I still love this one.

Matt (57:33)

What is. Oh, Killian's is what I'm thinking of. That's a red ale.

Joel (57:35)

Oh, that doesn't count. That doesn't. That's not a red ale. That is a fake red ale.

Matt (57:39)

This is a collab with Sam Adams and Haas. Is that how you say that? H A s? I have no idea. But maybe they are a Hopper purveyor. Perhaps that's their, their little symbol there. But you know what this tasted like to me? What? This reminded me of Bell's Hop Slam back in the day because it had a lot of hop flavor going on. It almost had this honey like sweetness and yeah, just reminded me of some of those, those good old days when you would seek out a fresh drop of hop slam you'd like. Line up, line up. Oh yeah, package door. They'll get you some of that.

Joel (58:08)

One of those first annual drops that people would be like hungering for. And Bells, I don't know. Are they still making cops?

Matt (58:14)

I'm pretty sure it's just not. It's just not in demand like it used to be.

Joel (58:18)

A bunch of beers that used to be so hot are now just, you know, hanging out on store shelves these days. So.

Matt (58:23)

Yeah. So if that's one that you remember being delicious, look for a three headed monster. I'm guessing that you'll enjoy it.

Joel (58:28)

Yeah, but.

Matt (58:29)

All right, wrap it up.

Joel (58:30)

Let's do it.

Matt (58:31)

All right, that's it for this episode. Find show notes up on the website@howtomoney.com that's going to be it, buddy. So until next time, best friends out. Best friends out.

Joel (58:53)

Even if you're a money whiz, it can still be helpful to have some professional backup and advice. I talk about personal finance every day of my life and I was still able to get massive value chatting with a CFP from Domain Money. They analyze every aspect of your financial life and help you build a personalized plan with clear steps to reach each one of your goals.

Matt (59:17)

That's right. And for a limited time, they're doing free 30 minute strategy sessions. So start today by booking a free strategy session with one of their experts by going to domainmoney.com howtomoney I am.

Joel (59:29)

A current client of Domain Money. I received a financial plan as part of the compensation for Domain Money's advertising on the podcast. And therefore I have an incentive to promote Domain Money in a world of.

Shang Saavedra (59:40)

Economic uncertainty and workplace transformation. Learn to lead by example from visionary C suite executives like Shannon Schuyler of PwC and Will Pearson of iHeartMedia. The good teacher explains the great teacher inspires.

Matt (59:56)

Don't always leave your team to do the work that's been the most important part of how to Lead by example.

Shang Saavedra (60:04)

Listen to Leading by Example executives making an impact on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

Joel (60:13)

Ever wonder what it would be like to be mentored by today's top business leaders? My podcast, this Is Working can help with that. Here's some advice from Jamie Dimon, the CEO of JPMorgan Chase, on standing out from the leadership crowd. Develop your EQ A lot of people have plenty of brains, but EQ is Do you trust me? Do I communicate well? Develop the team, develop the people, create a system of trust. And it works over time. I'm Dan Roth, LinkedIn's editor in chief. On my podcast, this Is Working Leaders Share Strategies for Success. Listen on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.