Bill Perkins (2:00)

points that our customers have?

Joel (2:02)

Smash those pain points and help you

Bill Perkins (2:04)

deliver very specific outcomes.

Joel (2:08)

Welcome to How2Money. I'm Joel and today I'm discussing Dying with Zero with Bill Perkins. So the title of today's episode kind of flies in the face of typical money advice around here. We talk a lot about saving and investing, about using money as a tool to buy yourself more freedom in the future. And at its core, how to money is about helping everyday folks build wealth and develop a healthier relationship with their money. But here's the thing. A healthy Money relationship. It's not just about accumulation, it's also about intentional spending. And my guest today, he's been one of the loudest and most thought provoking voices pushing back against the idea that life should be delayed until your 70s, right after you've squeezed every last dollar into your net worth. So, Bill Perkins, he argues that the time, the time is the most precious asset that we have and that waiting too long to enjoy it can be a costly mistake. His book is called Die with Zero came out more than five years ago, but it's still challenging the way people think about money, time and experiences. I'm genuinely pumped for this conversation. So, Bill, thank you for joining me today.

Bill Perkins (3:30)

Thanks for having me. It's great to be here.

Joel (3:32)

First question, what do you like to splurge on? We're trying to be smart, save and invest for our future so that we have a lot of options, but you gotta spend on cool stuff in the meantime. What's that for you right now?

Bill Perkins (3:43)

Usually it's an experience with my loved ones or friends. Right, Friends are loved ones. So, you know, where we challenge our worldview and we have a very enriching experience. It's generally travel. I think it's one of the few things that you could spend money on that actually makes you a richer person. And it's usually including many people that wouldn't able to be able to afford the trip or go with me or, you know, just, just, you know, paying their way so that I can enjoy it with them. You know, I'm one of the people that likes to go to the movies with somebody else. You know, I think people that go to the movies alone are either critics or psychos. And so that is kind of where, where I, where I go on, on those type of things.

Joel (4:28)

I love that, I love that being able to provide that experience for someone else. But it also enriches your experience. And I do think an answer we get to this question a lot is travel. But you've also, I feel like, found you've been really thoughtful about the ways you spend money on travel to accentuate the experience. Right?

Bill Perkins (4:46)

Yeah. I mean, the main thing is it doesn't have to be that big of a splurge. It works at all kinds of, to wealth levels. You can, you can take somebody, you can travel to a comedy store and buy a friend's ticket and you go with a group, right. A games night, you know, in an interesting location. Paying somebody who does like those murder mysteries to come over to your house. Right. And do a murder mystery. Dinner at your house where everybody's trying to figure it out. You know, those. Those are great experiences. Travel is just one where it's like everybody's in a new setting. You get to interact and enjoy each other and the environment. Almost like a real world movie, you know, real life movie. And so I'm very intentional about how, you know, first make sure I have the experience and then after that trying to, like, how can I get the most out of this experience? I think people are probably better than me at, like, getting the most value out of it. Like, if I go to Japan, they go to Japan, I'm spending twice as much, but they're having the same experience. But nevertheless, as long as you do that, you're getting the value. They're probably getting the value at a better rate than me.

Joel (5:56)

Does that bother you?

Bill Perkins (5:58)

It used to. But I'm on the backside of life. Most of the people I'm talking to, they're billionaires. They're time billionaires. They have more than a billion minutes to live. I'm a mere millionaire and I have a lot of capital. And so I. I can't afford to be efficient. I can't afford to miss out. Right. Like, there's waste is going to be part of that? Like, waste by design? Not, not necessarily. Like, I'm trying to waste money, but, like, I need to be very wise with my time and I can be a little bit foolish with my money. That's the state of life I'm in.

Joel (6:31)

I feel like a lot of, A lot of people you're speaking to on this podcast, and just maybe a lot of people and a lot of folks in general, they might feel the other way around. Like, I have to be incredibly cautious. And you even talk about that in the beginning of your book, how this book, like, the advice, and it's not for the person who's living paycheck to paycheck, necessarily.

Bill Perkins (6:49)

Yeah. And people are at different phases of their life, irrespective of their age. You know, I was at a time where it was like, hey, you know, I had a friend that was refreezing popcorn to save on popcorn, which I wrote about in the book. Right. Like, you know, like we bought bus tickets in advance and enrolled our employers in making do the transportation match. Like, we were. We were master savers at that time. And when you are hungry and starving, the only thing you can think about is food. You're not thinking about a lavish banquet. You're just trying to get by and acquiring food. And when you don't have that much capital. Your focus tends to be on exchanging everything you have in order to acquire capital. And that's understandable, but we also need to think about our life is also running, running out. That time period of our life is running out. And like, okay, I don't have that much capital, but how am I going to get the enjoyment out of this, out of this time period?

Joel (7:46)

So what problem would you say DAI with zero is trying to speak to, and in particular for our younger listeners in their 20s, late 20s, early 30s, who are like, yeah, I find myself in that place where I'm trying to accumulate capital so that those compounding returns can work for me and generate independence for me in the future. How, how do I think about that dichotomy?

Bill Perkins (8:07)

Yeah, I think it's trying to speak to people on autopilot one way or another. The spendthrift and the miserly saver, right? Like, what happens is that humans tend to develop a habit and then stick with it and they're just not really thinking about it, they're just doing it, right? So people get good at their job. It's just automatic, right? They know how to make the sales call, they know how to program the computer, they know how to do whatever it is that they're doing. You know how to drive home. You don't even think about driving home from work, right? You just magically appear somehow, right? Because you're in default mode, network. And that happens with saving money and spending money, right? You don't think about your life fulfillment at each period in your life. And so everybody's going to have different circumstances, different amounts of capital, be at a different age. What I really want them to think about is the purpose of my life is fulfillment. And everything is a tool for that fulfillment, whatever that means to me, right? Whether it's hedonistic or altruistic or some combination in between. And money is one of those tools, and your health is one of those tools, and your time is one of those tools. And so what I want people to do is get off autopilot and think about, hey, during this time period of my life, what is going to fulfill me and what resources do I have to bring to bear? And how much of each resource should I be sprinkling in it? Is it all my time? Is it all my money? Is it a little bit of my time, a little bit of my money? And how am I going to split these things up? And so instead of going into like a specific formula or a very specific cookbook recipe, what I'm giving people the mental models on how to think of each period in their life and how to answer these questions that are going to come up.

Joel (9:43)

Because it's going to differ from individual to individual based on their age, their health, their life circumstances.

Bill Perkins (9:48)

Yes. And also what they like. You know, if the most fulfilling thing for you is to play chess, I'm like, you have a different spend and save category than somebody who's. The most fulfilling thing is to go traveling around Africa or bicycling or hiking mountains around the globe. Right. Like, and so, you know, a lot of times when I talk to people about the book, they're like, oh, I get the book, but how do you figure out what you like? You know, like, that's up to you. Right. You have to decide what your. What does your adventure here on planet Earth look like?

Joel (10:17)

Is your advice ever for people to want less or to lower their expectations? Because I think sometimes, like, I think about my kids, even they're. There's some entitlement there, Right. That we're trying to work on. And what does it look like then to maybe set expectations that are a little bit lower from ourselves? Because I think, is that the problem sometimes why people spend too much, even on things that don't matter to them, is because they have expectations that are through the roof.

Bill Perkins (10:40)

I think that can be true, but I don't tell that to people. What I try to get them to do is be aware of the cost. I have friends that are still grinding, still working hard, right. Giving up their life. And I'm like, I want to point out the cost. Like, you're never going to get these 40s back or 50 to 50. You're never getting this back. You're never getting the time back with your family. You're never getting the time back with your kids. I want you to consider the cost and re weigh that out. Like, do you really want to be doing this? So I think people have kind of like these wants and think, oh, if I want it, obviously I'm behaving. I'm not wishing for it. If I'm wanting, I'm working towards it. So you're working for this thing at a cost. And everything has a cost. And so I want people to think about those costs and then decide, do I really want it? And if they really want it, then they really want it, then it's worth the cost. But if you think about these things and you don't act on autopilot, then you're going to have a more fulfilling life.

Joel (11:40)

It's been said that. And you know this better than almost anybody else, but like, the eighth wonder of the world is compounding returns, right? And when you think about, just, for example, Warren Buffett, he's done an amazing job of, like, building a ridiculous net worth. And when you look at it, the vast majority of his net worth has been built since essentially traditional retirement age, would you say? And I know this is, again, kind of pointing back to what you said, individualized. But is he doing it wrong?

Bill Perkins (12:06)

I mean, his. I don't know, his private life, right, so. But his public Persona, it's just quite absurd to me, you know, it's just quite absurd. I just. I can't for the life of me see me see that as the most fulfilling life I could have possible and for any other human being, right? But perhaps he's the type of guy, like, his fulfillment is just sitting at a desk and doing work. And working for future charity is basically what his life has been. He's worked all his life. He spent a lot of hours going over charts and graphs and investing and picking, et cetera. And that money, the lion's share of that money is for a future charity, which, you know, I'm not against giving charity, but he could have give charity. He could have gave the money earlier and had a bigger impact. And so to me, it's absurd. But who knows? You know, Warren Buffett might have a private life where he's just, like, living it up hidden from everybody, you know, just having a rocking time, you know,

Joel (13:01)

or maybe like, he is just one of those people who is extremely gratified by the McDonald's on the way to work, working most of the day, watching the numbers go up. Maybe that's what brings him joy.

Bill Perkins (13:14)

It's possible. I mean, you know, I have had this conversation with friends, like my friends that I get into debates, and it says, listen, if you're going to be a heroin addict, I cannot convince you that heroin is good. Like, you're like, I have a problem with your heroin addict. Right. Like you're addicted to something and it feels good. And I'm trying to show you that the world is bigger than what you're doing and that you would be happier off heroin. But, you know, if Warren Buffett is addicted to the doing. Air quotes. People can't see this heroin addiction of work and charts and growth. Yeah, it's very hard to break that. And you've heard that, like, you have a problem with my drinking. I don't have a problem drinking. You know, that type of Thing, right? Like it's like, oh, you have a problem with me working? This makes me happy. You know, and you're. And as a friend, I'm sitting there going, let's really think about all, all the things that you can be doing in the world and all the things you can be doing with your time, aside from watching balance sheet go up. And once we have a very deep, vulnerable conversation, generally I sway them. It becomes why I really don't know what to do. That's the answer.

Joel (14:17)

What was that interpersonal conversation like for you? Because at some point there must have been an epiphany of sorts to say, what am I doing with my life? And a certain amount, you get a certain amount of money and you have to start to ask those bigger, more existential questions.

Bill Perkins (14:34)

You know, they start to. When you come truly online and kind of like late teens, early 20s, you start to ask these questions. And I was fortunate enough to read this book called you'd money or your life. I think a lot of the people who are savers, the whole fire movement was launched from this book and that kind of accelerated those questions. And you know, I was asking from a very macro standpoint, like, why am I chasing this amount of money? Like, what is it for? And at that age I had very immature version of that. It's for the girls and the parties and you know what I mean, the brick sized cell phone, you know what I mean? Whatever it was, right. It was basically a version of a rap video, right? But it got me thinking about what is the purpose of my life for? Why do I need this money? I obviously just don't want it to have, I wanted to have a life and what does that life look like? And then I'm giving up hours of my time for this money. All those kinds of questions started to really swirl in my head and I wanted to figure out what was the optimal earnings and what was the optimal spending pattern and what variables go into creating that. And so that's kind of like the epiphany I had. It was kind of this like macro, whoa, what is this for? Like, what am I going to do if I had $10 million, why do I need to make $10 million? Like, why am I spending hours of my Life to make $10 million if I don't have, if I don't have something to spend it on? This is idiotic, right?

Joel (16:03)

Well, you brought up fire and that seems to be another way to try to explain some of these concepts. But to you it's, it feels unfulfilling

Bill Perkins (16:11)

the one thing I love about the fire is that it forces people to get in touch with what they really appreciate and what they really want. Right. Like you shed a lot of the ego stuff. You shed things that are unnecessary and you kind of, you know, work your way and save your way into this financial freedom, this lack of worry. Right. And this freedom that you're gonna have by retiring. And my problem is, is that a lot of delayed gratification and pushes a lot of experiences to time buckets in your life where they don't belong. There are certain experiences that belong in your 20s. There are certain experience that belong in your 30s, 40s, 50s, right. Or they're more optimal for that time period. Right. And what fire is, is like a mini version of going to jail and then coming out rich.

Joel (17:00)

Yeah.

Bill Perkins (17:00)

And I'm like, I don't think I would give up my twenties, you know what I mean, for a nice payday out of coming. And some people, you know, they give up their 20s and their 30s for a nice payday in their 40s. And I think that's not an optimal way, right? It is a way, but it's not an optimal way. I think the optimal way is to realize that, hey, let me look at my life. Let me look at each period of my life, let me look at what experiences would be fulfilling to me and let me allocate those resources accordingly. Right? And so if it's hustling and building a business at this time period, then hustle and build a business and put your time in there and a little bit of time into other things outside of that. If it's things that are not to do with work and they're outside that, then take some of the capital to acquire those things in that time period. A lot of people, and I witnessed them because I lived in St. Thomas for six, seven years, you know, think their life's going to be like a Carnival commercial. And then when they get on the Carnival cruise, the Carnival cruise, it's nice, but it's not like a Carnival commercial. And your body doesn't work like those bodies on the Carnival commercials. And so most people get on those cruises, they get off the island and I'm sorry, they get off the boat and get onto the island. And the main thing they do is go into the shops in town and buy something for like a grandkid or a relative, et cetera. They're not really savoring life like a, you know what I mean, this action packed, fun cruise. And that's because Life has passed them by.

Joel (18:28)

You're kind of talking about, like, the, the utility of money curve, right? And how, how having, how having more money in your 30s, like taking that same trip when you're 32 with some of your best friends or spouse or whatever, like, could provide a lot more value than taking it at the age of 78.

Bill Perkins (18:44)

Yeah. I give a pretty vivid example of my friend Greg who loves skiing, skied with his dad, loves skiing. And, you know, when we were talking about this, he's in his 50s. He's like, I can only do. I used to do seven ski runs or eight ski runs on a ski trip, now two or three, and my knees hurt. Right. I could probably do more, but it's not enjoyable. It's not as fulfilling, Right? And so the ski trip is worth less to them now at this age. And so if we're talking about, if we're looking at our life like, from like a planning perspective from like, like say, 18. And, and we're like, hey, we're going to do X ski trips in our life, right? When is a, when is the best time to do those ski trips? Like, how would we distribute those throughout our life? Right? And I'm asking people to do that wholesale for every single activity in their life. Now, the problem is, is life is about discovery. You don't know what you like. You discover what you like, right? Like, you, you touch it, you taste it, you travel to it, you talk with it. And, and you're like, I don't like this. I do like this or this. I've discovered what I want to do for the rest of my life. And so you kind of have to, like, use money and, you know, an idea proxy and then go through life and keep revising this list. But if you start life saying, hey, yeah, you're right, it's better for me to take two ski trips at 30 than five ski trips at 60. You know, maybe I need to do, you know, forego the savings for those ski trips at 60 and cut that number down and do the ski trips now.

Joel (20:13)

That makes it. There's the concept of consumption smoothing as well, which there was a Yale paper written about that. I'm sure you read it. And it's so controversial in the personal finance space, right? And part of the reason it's controversial is because it involves assumptions about future income and actually pushes people as younger individuals to take on more debt. Because it's like, hey, the income will grow. And maybe I'm particularly frustrated by the consumption smoothing as, like, good advice because of what my parents went through when I was a kid and how people told my dad that hey, you're going to get the raise and you'll be able to afford the expensive house you got. And then you know, it didn't work out like that. So. So you are a fan of consumption smoothing, I think, right?

Bill Perkins (20:54)

I would say I'm a fan of taking risk and it has to be worth it, right? Like at the end of the day, you're risking your time, you're risking your money, you're risking your health for fulfillment. And if you're in touch with like the reward, if the reward really means something to you, then it's worth the risk. Right. And there's something that's not in the that consumption smoothing paper. Is that a concept I call the memory dividends. Okay. So when you plan an experience, you're getting some fulfillment. When you do the experience, you get a spike in fulfillment. But when you recall the experience and talk about it later in life, you access that experience and you have some fulfillment as well. And often the recall and discuss future discussions of an experience will give you greater fulfillment than the original experience itself. Like ask anybody who's had a game winning home run, a first kiss, a job promotion or anything like that. They're telling those stories from 40 years later. Right. And you're actually a more interesting person because when you're talking to people, you have something to talk about because you've done these experiences and that experience is even more fulfilling. And so those things are inflation protected fulfillment.

Joel (22:11)

Yep.

Bill Perkins (22:12)

Memory dividends. And so the way they say, hey, you know, invest early, invest early, invest early because you're going to get the dividends and the compound, compound interest. I say the same thing about experience. Invest early, invest early, invest early. Because you're going to get the dividends in fulfillment and compound fulfillment, right? And so that's something you should weigh if you really enjoy something and you really have a great experience, let's say the ski trip with friends, but then you are unable to afford ski trips in the future. It's not a complete loss because you have to factor in, hey, I made great friends, I had a great trip, we still talk about that time when I fell down the mountain, et cetera, blah blah, blah, blah, right? Like this is the construct of your life, this is your self identity, this is your fulfillment. This is what you're going to retire on. You're going to retire on the memories and the actions you have taken throughout your life. The money is there to just, you Know when you are unable to use that money, the money you have left is just for body maintenance of a body that doesn't move that much.

Joel (23:11)

On that note, Bill, you came to the conclusion, right, that your apex net worth shouldn't come at age 65. I mean that's typically, I think that the number that people are saving for somewhere in that rough frame, right? 59 and a half. 60, 65. That's where I want my peak nest egg to be. So you think that for most people that peak net worth should come a lot earlier in life. Tell me about that. And how do you think, how do people know when they should be turning from saver to spender?

Bill Perkins (23:41)

I think a lot of people don't like to talk about this, but it's getting in touch with like your mortality and when you're gonna die. Like if I was gonna leave to 200 and be in health, I'd be like, oh, okay, maybe I'm spending too much, right? But I can't imagine, you know, 75 expected life. You know, if somebody dies at 75, you're not like, oh my God, they died young. You'd be like, oh, that's about right, 75, 76. So I can't imagine saving all this money up, getting to a peak net worth at 65 to try and get my 65 year old body to enjoy it. All right, like, it just doesn't make any sense. I think, I think everybody listening to this call is probably like, yeah, that doesn't, that doesn't make sense. The other thing is, is that when you look at the data, people made target 60 or 65, but of those who saved, their net worth keeps going up in their 70s. And people go, why? And I'm like, because they can't spend it. They don't have the aptitude or the attitude to do it.

Joel (24:38)

And part of it's because it's the muscle they haven't exercised.

Bill Perkins (24:41)

It's lung capacity, bone density, it's muscle mass. It's also just how they feel. Like, I mean, for me to go to the club with glow sticks is not as exciting as it was when my 20s or 30s. Like if we were just in a world of glow sticks and clubs, I'd be like, I'm not going to go, I'm going to stay home and watch Matlock or something in my 60s. You just like different activities as you age and that's somebody. But, well, not me. I love, I get that. But what I'm saying is that you're never going to be as in shape as the best in shape you could be at 33, right. You're not going to have the mental facilities or calculation engine that you had when you were 28 ever. Okay. And you're just kind of like general wanting to go and do things. It just declines. And so, like, it's. I have an in law who's like, yeah, I'm not going to get on a plane. Sitting on the plane for three hours is, you know, it's not worth it going through the airport. It's not like for me at this age, I'm like, I will, I'll go to Timbuktu for a day, right. And then fly 12 hours. Right. But as you get older, these things kind of drift off. And so do all the activities associated with them. So do all the cities. So all the movement, right? And some of all the activities, and the activities you like to do tend to spend very little money. And so you've then oversaved for your future self.

Joel (26:06)

So part of what you're getting at is, is the importance of maintaining your health, right. And that people don't focus on that nearly enough and that that will actually extend your ability to enjoy the wealth you've accumulated further out into the future. And then the other thing is that maybe you shouldn't care about having the biggest net worth at age 65. How do you help people? Or. Yeah, what, what, what filter should, should people run through their likely apex net worth age and what that looks like to start spending it down maybe earlier than they previously thought?

Bill Perkins (26:39)

Yeah, I think it's kind of knowing what you like, kind of understanding your future. You kind of look at your parents, like, what do they do? Right? Like, if they had the money, like give them some money, what do they do? But it's really like at age 65 or age 50, how many years do you have to live and how many healthy years do you have to live? And that's going to be. You know, there's people obese, there's people in shape, there's people who couldn't run up a flight of stairs. There's people who can run a marathon, right? And so that area under the curve, like the utility of money to you is a function of your health and your future health. You know, I was watching Peter Attia podcast and he was talking about 7 Mets is kind of what you need to be able to have sex, right? And he gave an equivalent. He said most people would think that, like most people can have 7 METs of energy equivalent to whatever it was walking at this. But as you age, your lung capacity declines. And so if you want to be able to have sex later, which requires seven METs, you need to be at this health now, right? So even the basic functions of being a human physical love decline with age unless you stay in shape. So if you think like, hey, I got all this money, I'm going to be spending it doing xyz and you can't even have sex because you're huffing and puffing like you ran a marathon, right? It's not as enjoyable. You got to reevaluate that. And I think that's a very personal thing, you know, but the mental model is what shape am I in? And when is my expected death date? Which you can get from your actual tables. There's lots of things now that will like, take in all your diagnostics data and adjust it. Even the LLM models are getting pretty good at that. And then you can go, oh, okay, should 80% of my production be consumed in the last 10% of my life or 15% of my life? And that's going to be to each person his own, right? Like, I'm not going to tell them that. What I'm going to tell them to do is go through that exercise, start thinking about it, and then you're going to come out with a better answer than just autopilot.

Joel (28:48)

I want to dig into that a little bit more, Bill. And I also want to talk about the shortcomings of die with zero and what kind of criticism you get. We'll dig in on a bunch of that stuff right after this. For small businesses, every hire matters, but the time and resources required to hire right are Limited. Luckily, LinkedIn Hiring Pro is built for that reality. It's your hiring partner, designed to help you hire with confidence by surfacing only the right candidates without turning hiring and into another full time job.

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Joel (32:05)

So you're talking to a group of folks who have, have gotten or are getting better at saving and investing. What do you want them to hear? If that's the place where they're at and they've prioritized that they're like man, I'm finally I know what the Roth IRA is. I'm maxing it out. I'm getting the match of my 401k. I'm putting more money aside for my future. What is that, holistic? Yeah, I'm, I'm thinking about my future self and independence, full financial independence. But I'm also prioritizing the here and now.

Bill Perkins (32:34)

So the number one rule in trading is know your position. Like, know what position? Are you long? Are you short? Like, know your position. And so I, if I was going to translate that to like life advice for these savers, I'd be like, know what you're saving for, right? Know what you're saving for. This is not Space Invaders. This is not a game. That money is for future you to do something, know those somethings, right? So if I could talk to a person and this would be impossible, but, and I could say, what exactly are the activities you want to do from now to the grave? We can know exactly, to the penny, how much they need to save. So they do not over save. They don't need to work anymore. Like, we could tell them, we could go, hey, quit right here, right? But just to go through that exercise, right, you can get closer to getting the most fulfilling life because you're not under saving, right? Which is the worst case and you're not over saving, right? And so knowing what you are saving for and knowing when you are saving for are the two key variables, right? To have the most fulfilling life, to really loop this whole thing together of getting my money right, it's like, okay, you're getting your money, right? What are you getting? What are you getting it right for? Right? It's for something, right? And a lot of people go with the easy stuff like survival and rent, et cetera. But after you've covered the survival stuff, what's it for? Being in touch with the when and why is crucial to have the most fulfilling life.

Joel (34:01)

Do you think most folks are working too much and that their lives would be better? That they would enjoy their lives more if they had lesser wants, lower spending habits, and more free time? Like, I'm thinking, for me personally, over the last three years, it's been a, it's been a journey of working less. And most of that time has been spent doing physical stuff. And I find myself much happier with more, more freedom because of it. Do you think working less is a big part of the equation for a lot of people?

Bill Perkins (34:31)

I think so. I think it's general. Like, I have friends that like, they're remote working. I'm like, well, come with me on the strip. And like, no, I got, I'm like, why bring the thing with you, you know, like, work in a better office, you know what I mean? Like, come with me. And I. It really depends on what you want. And so the reason why I say that people would be better off working less, at least those who work and those who save, is that the data shows that they don't consume it later, right? Of those who save, they save too much. The net worth keeps going up in their 70s and then they die, right? So clearly with that group of people, I can say, okay, these guys have worked too much, right? They're. They're thinking of things for their future self that they want, that they're lying to themselves. They're lying to themselves about their health, they're lying to themselves about their activity, or they're really not thinking about an autopilot. And so that's the only reason why I would say that I tend to get the most fulfillment from my interpersonal relationships, not from activities alone. As a matter of fact, I say that almost every activity in life is an excuse to connect with other humans. Football game, baseball game, bar, movie, dinner party, bar mitzvah, funeral, wedding. Every single thing you do seems to be an excuse to connect with other humans. Now we remove that connect with other humans part out of it. We just say, hey, I'm going to the baseball game, or hey, I'm going to a football game, or hey, whatever. But we forget there's all these other humans and humans that we go with. And we like going into restaurants where there's other people maybe, maybe we don't even talk with them, but we kind of have this common experience. And so that doesn't necessarily take that much money, you know what I mean? You know, like a hike is a great activity to do with your friends. Like, not only are you giving a gift to your future self in terms of health, but you're enjoying the experience and you're talking with a friend and you're having a great time. So you're having a present and a future experience at like, no money, right? And so. Or board games where you play games with your friends. Like, you're sharpening your brain and reducing your risk of Alzheimer's, and you're having a moment with your friend and you're creating memory div ins for the future. And so my life, I think about all the things I splashed on and splurged on. It's like, oh, it's a excuse to create an event for future friends to go hang out. My boat, my houses, everything. So that's kind of when you kind of strip it down, right? Strip all the. To like basically like what is happening here during this life? It's like I'm finding new and interesting ways to connect with other humans. And these are all excuses. Graduation, whatever, it doesn't matter.

Joel (37:14)

What are the biggest criticisms you hear about Die With Zero? I think I could list a few. Just the people who have read the book and they're like, I don't know, I still have some concerns about people running out of money or market swings. Like, what are the concerns you typically hear? Which ones do you think are valid?

Bill Perkins (37:30)

Okay, do we want to do what people who have read the book or haven't read the book? A lot of people criticize the kind of philosophy, the people that haven't read the book. It's like, what about the kids? And I wrote a whole chapter, chapter, I think it's chapter six, called what about the Kids? About when you should give money to your kids, if you're going to leave money to kids, when you should give to charity, etc. And so I won't go into that. But like, of the people who have read the book, I would think the biggest criticism I guess is I don't know when I'm going to die, right? Like the kind of what if I outlive my money? And you know, my, my retort to that is that if you look at the data, the overall amount of data is that when you die is not a big determinant here on your net worth. People are not like, oh, I lived two years earlier and two years later I ran out of money. They just, the, the, the amount of money you spend in later life goes down so drastically versus people's savings that it's not a factor. Right? It's just not a factor. So the knowing when I'm going to die or I don't like to think about death, you know what I mean? I don't like to calculate these things, etc. I think that's probably one of the biggest criticisms I get is that kind of uncertainty. The second one is inflation. People are very concerned about inflation and I point to them that the, the best inflation protected thing we have going are memory dividends. They actually grow. They grow inflation adjusted. They're like tips. They're the best tips. Treasury inflation protected securities. I'm saying tips, maybe some people don't know what that means, but they're the best tips you can buy are those experiences that pay memorative dividends. Nothing is going to diminish the value and it actually sometimes increases the trip you went on with your daughter or your kids or the experience you had with your friends. And so that's one. The second one is inflation and just dealing with uncertainty, right. People really, you know, what if I get sick? You know, what about inflation? And all these things I say is like, look, and I've said this in a book, you're not the best insurance agent. Basically you're saying my savings is for me to be the insurance agent of a customer of one.

Joel (39:39)

Right?

Bill Perkins (39:39)

And I'm like, look, you're, you're not that great. You're not, you're not that great of an actuary. You really don't understand the odds of this risk and you don't have the law of large numbers to give you like the lower edge on this. And so what I say is that there are better tools out there to mitigate these risks than you over saving and wasting your life.

Joel (39:58)

That's powerful. Yeah, but someone asked then too about those tools, the financial instruments, right, that allow people to de risk like a die with zero strategy. And some of the, some of the financial tools that exist can be kind of expensive, come with fees. One of the things that people tend to do is like delay Social Security, right. As long if I take Social Security later, I have a bigger monthly check coming every single month. Maybe that's one way for me to ensure that those later years I can spend more now and take Social Security later. I don't know. Do you, do you have any thoughts on specific ways to dial it in for a financial tools perspective?

Bill Perkins (40:31)

Yeah, I think some of those things, like the market is hyper competitive in financial services, it takes a little bit of work. But if you get off autopilot, whether it's like I want to insure against living too long, they all love to write you that annuity. Or if you want to, long term health care insurance, if you get it early enough, it's actually cheap. You're going to have to spend an attorney to look through this so you don't get caught in some edge case that you don't want. But like long term health care insurance, you're worried about, like I'm going to need a nurse or I'm going to need X, Y and Z, which I think that's if you're out of shape and you don't take your body, that need goes up. And so one of the biggest insurance things you could do is stay healthy, exercise, get your VO2 max up. I don't want to steal Peter Tia's stick But it's like, build muscle mass and have your VO2 max up. Your all cause mortality goes down, but your health goes up and the expense associated with the cascading conditions that happen with being out of shape go away. Then you're really saving too much money.

Joel (41:33)

What's the expense that goes. That goes down, but it's also the joy that you can get from it.

Bill Perkins (41:39)

Works on both sides of it. It's probably the most powerful thing you can do. As a matter of fact, I purposely don't talk too much about health because it's so powerful. It just wrecks every single model. A little tweak in your health changes everything, your fulfillment so much. So usually, you know, the book is really geared towards wealth, wealth and time, but health is very, very powerful. I had to rewrite chapters to add more into the health about it. My friend was like, you don't talk about health enough. I'm like, well, I don't want it to be a health book.

LinkedIn Hiring Pro Advertiser (42:07)

Right?

Bill Perkins (42:07)

Like, I want it to be like, hey, this is one of the variables, and you need to do your best here. But those tools, if you dig into them, you will find, even if they cost like, oh, I'm paying 6% edge, or whatever, it's way better than you doing it yourself, you know? You ever heard the. You ever heard the saying, if you think hiring a professional is expensive, wait till you hire an amateur? That's what I tell people when they're like, trying to do insurance for themselves by saving too much or trying to do whatever. I'm like, guys, you are wrecking your life. Right. By not just paying away the 6% to these guys to give you this product.

Joel (42:46)

Yeah.

Bill Perkins (42:47)

Because there's no way you're going to be as efficient as they are.

Joel (42:49)

You can't create the product on your own. Or what you give, what you're missing out on, if you avoid the expensive product is significant.

Bill Perkins (42:57)

Right. So people are afraid of death, and they don't like talking about these things, so they don't even look at these products. They just go, well, what if I die? They just throw this reason up. And I'm not saying the reason is silly. I'm just saying is they throw the reason up as an excuse and then don't try and mitigate it in the most efficient way possible.

Joel (43:14)

And you say to at least try because perfection's the enemy of good. In this case. Right. Where you can look for the perfect thing that's incredibly inexpensive and ensures you against all potential downsides. But then you're Looking for the non existent product and you're missing out. You're missing something else in the process.

LinkedIn Hiring Pro Advertiser (43:32)

Right?

Bill Perkins (43:33)

And how about this? Just going through the exercise, just like going okay, I'm afraid of X, whatever it is, living too long. And you go down the exercise of like okay, this is what it costs, et cetera. Then you get quantify like oh wow, I'm over saving by X in order to for this eventuality. And then you decide if it's worth it. Yeah, is that really worth it? I mean life is risk. Like you're not going to living the day you were born. Life is risk every single day. Anybody started a business, go to work, say I love you first. There's all types of risk, right? Every day, emotional, physical, financial. And you have to decide is it worth risk risking a decade of your life and throwing away your life and not having the most fulfilling life to worry about, future you having to scrimp and save a little bit. Everybody's got to make that decision and look at the numbers and see what they want to do about it. And different people might come to different conclusions. But I think being deeply aware and viscerally aware of the numbers, the risk and thinking about it will lead you to a more fulfilling life than you just throwing reasons out, not looking into them and living on autopilot.

Joel (44:42)

That's great. Yeah, I want to talk about too, just how you think about life in seasons and how that should impact what die with zero looks like that mantra in our lives. We'll talk about that in just a sec. For small businesses, every hire matters, but the time and resources required to hire right are Limited. Luckily, LinkedIn Hiring Pro is built for that reality. It's your hiring partner, designed to help you hire with confidence by surfacing only the right candidates without turning hiring into another full time job.

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Joel (45:45)

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Joel (47:30)

Bill. You talk about the importance of living your life in distinct seasons and you just had another kid in your mid-50s. It's been six years since you published the book. Are you in a new season? And do you have a different perspective on what you wrote and on the die with zero mentality than when this book first came out?

Bill Perkins (47:50)

I definitely have a more visceral feeling of like appreciating the time. Like I wrote about like, you know, in the book about reading, watching Winnie the Pooh with my kids and then one day they're like, that was for babies. And how, wow, had I really thought about that day coming, I might have spent more time with my kids watching that and reading books with them. And now I have kind of that wisdom of like, you know, pass Bill messing that up a little bit and really savoring this moment. And so the mental models I think are the same. But the, you know, I'm erasing, you know what I mean, my time buckets, right? Like I'm like, okay, this is what I'm going to do you know, at this age, and this is what I'm going to be doing, and these are the experiences I want to have at whatever. And I'm like, I'm having a baby. Let's erase that and start over. Right. So the process is the same, the inputs are different. Right. Like, you know, now I have. I have a Kai Perkins, my son. And the activities have radically changed for me. But, like, the way I'm thinking about those activities and how to get the most fulfillment for me, for him, for my loved ones, is still the same methodology.

Joel (48:59)

Yeah. How often does your mindset migrate away from your own principles? Like, what do you have to do? Because we're humans, man, we just, like, we forget stuff all the time. Even stuff that we feel like is deeply ingrained. How do you get back in touch with that philosophy when it starts to slip?

Bill Perkins (49:16)

My wife, she saw me, and my friends, they hold me accountable. Like I said, I wrote the book to save my own life, and then I hoped other people would get value out of it. I think you've heard me say this. What are you talking about, save your life? I'm like, well, the example I use is if somebody was drowning and you yanked them out of the river and gave them mouth to mouth and they go, oh, my gosh, you saved my life. Guess what's going to happen? They for sure are going to die. 100% they're going to die. They're just going to not die that day. So what did you actually give them? You gave them more time, more activities, more fulfillment, more I love yous, more spending time with grandma, their kids, et cetera. And so if I write a book about optimizing your life such that you have more I love yous, more time, more fulfillment, etcetera, I'm basically doing the same thing in my mind. And so I wrote it. So I didn't waste my life. But I'm not the guru. I'm not the, like the, you know, I'm not the Buddha. I wrote it to, like, hey, don't waste your life. And I'm human. So I have my wife who's like, hey, what are you doing? Get off your phone. Hey, you know, like, you know, you want to go. You fell in love with riding on trains. It's a wonderful thing. I thought I'd hate it, and then I wound up loving it. Long story. And then I'm like, we're going to ride train all the time. She's like, hey, you could ride trains in your 70s and 80s. Let's do other activities, like walking cities, et cetera. You know, that's a really good point,

Joel (50:39)

too, that she's pushing you and saying, listen, those are the activities you totally can do way down the road, right? And you could ride trains to your heart's content right now, but you'd be missing out on other stuff that you won't be able to do at that age.

Bill Perkins (50:49)

Yeah. And she's on me, like, hey, you're really working hard on this deal and this startup and thing or whatever. Do you really. Do you really need to work on that heart? Is that really, like, when is this gonna end? You know, like, this is a very intense period for you. Like, when is this gonna end? And, you know, I'm the type of person, if I, like, get into something, I could just keep going. You know what I mean? Like, you know, people like, I'm eat a whole bag of chips. You just. You know, humans beings are that way. It's like, put. Put a bowl of pretzels in front of them. They never even ask for the pretzels. They'll eat the whole bowl, right? Like, put a. Put an interesting work project in front of me. Ah, I'm in it. I got to solve the puzzle, right? Like, we love solving puzzles, right? We can get addicted to puzzles. I get addicted to puzzles, right? Their work is a puzzle. They get addicted to that puzzle, right? That's why we love games. We love interesting games. We love these puzzles. And so she's like, hey, pay attention. Life is going by. It's okay that you're doing this puzzle, but let's. Let's think about this. And so that really helps me important

Joel (51:42)

to have somebody in your corner who reminds you about that stuff and helps you try to live up to your own ideals.

Bill Perkins (51:46)

Yes.

Joel (51:47)

Well, Bill, thank you so much for taking the time. Where can. How do money listeners find out more about you and more about your book, which is kind of legendary at this point?

Bill Perkins (51:53)

Wow. Well, the book is sold everywhere. I think it's in, like, 10 different languages. So that shouldn't be a fine problem for anybody who prefers to read in a different language. It's in Barnes and Nobles, it's in Amazon. It's in small book sellers. We try and make it available everywhere. I'm kind of a crazy guy. You can find me on Instagram, Illperkins and on Twitter. I'm Bill BP 22. But please, that stream of consciousness. I don't recommend it. I don't recommend it for everyone. You know, I wrote this book really, like, I'm really honest about that is like, to get these thoughts out of my head, almost like a diary. And then hopefully it would have an impact on everybody else in the world and having a more fulfilling life. So I didn't write it to become the guy, you know what I mean? I don't want to be the guy. I just want to live life and have, you know, I'm winging life just like everybody else. And I wanted a guidebook to help me have the most fulfilling life. And so you're welcome to come follow me @BP22 on Twitter and look me up on Instagram, but I don't recommend it.

Joel (52:54)

I love it. I think that's like actually the perfect recipe to probably get more followers is to say, don't follow me.

Bill Perkins (53:00)

Like this guy's an idiot. Like he's crazy, you know?

Joel (53:04)

Well, thanks, Bill. I really appreciate your time, man.

Bill Perkins (53:06)

Yeah, thanks for having me. It's been fun.

Joel (53:08)

All right, man. If you were hoping for a lighter episode that wasn't going to give you much to think about, this wasn't the right one to tune into. And Bill Perkins, he's definitely, he's nothing if not opinionated. But I just really appreciate his passion, his enthusiasm, and how this whole concept of die with zero came not from his desire to be a guru, but from his. His want, his need to kind of create a framework for himself. And I think that framework is helpful for. Can be helpful for a lot of us. And I think it can be particularly helpful if we find ourselves in the hyper frugal category. And I think especially as people who listen to a personal finance podcast, someone who creates a personal finance podcast, it can be really easy to think about the X's and O's, to think about seeing the net worth go up on repeat year after year. And I do think there can be some satisfaction gained from that. Right. Like we talked about Warren Buffett for a second. I do think Warren in some ways gives a lot of joy from the way he lives his life. And what he wants out of his life is different than what Bill wants and it's different than what I want. But I think what Bill is also prompting us to do is to say, take the food for thought, be viscerally aware of the trade offs you're making, because there's a chance that that might not be what you want. Maybe you do need to do some experimenting and maybe you do. Maybe you are in the place where you need to try to spend some more money to see what's going to offer some payoff, or at least what he would say is to know what you're saving for and if you're just saving and investing, to see the number go up but you don't have ideas and thoughts of what that money is going to be used for, how it's going to facilitate a better life for you down the road, then maybe there's a connection that needs to be made. I also love to what he said about how so often events or spending money is he said it was an excuse to connect with other humans. And I think that is so true. Like I have a concert that I'm super stoked to go to, have an extra ticket and inviting a friend to that is like so exciting. And part of it's because the music's going to be great, very excited about that. But it's also the whole kitten caboodle of getting to say, hey, you come do this experience with me. I want to take you along for the ride and it doesn't have to be terribly expensive. That was one of the other things I think sometimes Bill is criticized for for his he lives a different lifestyle than I do and people think, oh man, it's like this die with zero. It's only for the uber rich. And I think if you want to do it the way he's done it, you got to have more money. But I think what he's getting at too is a philosophy and an approach to money that doesn't mean having to be a multimillionaire. And we can implement some of that wisdom in the here and now. So it's a great book. It's a compelling book and I think it'll change the way you view your own finances and maybe even reorient some things in your life. All right, thanks as always for joining and we'll put links to some of Bill's stuff, including his Instagram that he doesn't want you to follow in the show Notes up on the website@howtomoney.com until next time. Best friend out. Foreign.

Bill Perkins (56:52)

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Bill Perkins (58:22)

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Joel (58:52)

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Bill Perkins (58:55)

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