Haley Brownswood (3:07)

Thank you so much for having us.

Justin Brownswood (3:08)

Yeah, this is so exciting. Thanks for celebrating us there.

Joel (3:12)

You got. Okay, so. Okay, Cupid. How'd that go down? Who reached out to who? Tell me the love story.

Justin Brownswood (3:17)

Yeah, this is like my favorite story.

Haley Brownswood (3:19)

But yeah, he really likes to bash me here.

Justin Brownswood (3:21)

Yeah, I really do. I. I found Haley on OkCupid and another dating site at the same time. Yeah, plenty of fish. Not Tinder, don't worry. But I reached out to her and she ghosted me for like two weeks.

Joel (3:32)

No way.

Justin Brownswood (3:33)

And I'm thinking, what the heck, we're 94% compatible. What's going on here? And eventually she messaged me and said, I'm sorry I had to sift through just gross messages from other people, but here I am and we sparked a conversation and the rest is history. We're actually celebrating our seven year anniversary today. Joel.

Joel (3:49)

Congratulations. Today, today. Congratulations. We could have found another day so you didn't have to talk to me on your end. Okay.

Justin Brownswood (3:57)

Yeah. This is great. This is exciting stuff.

Joel (3:59)

I'm so thrilled for you. Seventh day. Happy anniversary. I would have sent you some beers or something. Speaking of which, first question I got to ask you really is, what's your craft beer equivalent? What do you guys like to spend money on? Your super intention, thoughtful about saving and investing for the future. What do you splurge on in the here and now?

Justin Brownswood (4:15)

I would say for me, just in this season of life, my guilty pleasure is fantasy football, not like daily gambling. But I cannot turn down my friends and the fantasy leagues I've been in for 10 years. Even though every year I'm like, why am I doing this? I'm just losing my hundred dollars every year. But you know, I figure $100 stretched out over five months is worth it to me and it reconnects me with some of my friends. So I would say it's probably fantasy football for me.

Joel (4:40)

Okay.

Haley Brownswood (4:41)

I really love spending money on myself. I love self care. I feel like it is life giving and being a mom of three kids, five and under, and running a business from home with the kids at home with us, like it is chaos and I just need to step away and go get my nails done or go get my hair done. And self care things really fill my cup. So it's worth every penny.

Joel (5:06)

Okay. I love it.

Haley Brownswood (5:07)

Every time.

Joel (5:07)

Love it. Those are both great things. And you're right, you're. I mean, like, all work and no play makes us dull. Right. And that's kind of the heart behind some of your brand, which I want to get into as well. And some of how you guys talk about money, which I think is really refreshing. But before we get there, let's start kind of with some of the story stuff. And Justin, at one point you inherited $600,000. And this is just, this is like the craziest story to me. Was this, was this like the impetus for you to get your finances together? Were you like, boom, large chunk of change. I guess I'm going to start figuring out how to save effectively and invest wisely. Or is that not how it went down?

Justin Brownswood (5:47)

That is definitely not how it went down. Yeah, I wish that was how it went down. Yeah. In 2015, my grandmother passed away from mesothelioma, which is asbestos, caused lung cancer. It's kind of what all those commercials are talking about. That's essentially what my grandma went through. And in the process of her decline, my grandfather started a wrongful death lawsuit on her behalf. And when she passed away, that lawsuit finalized, and money came down to the kiddos. And So I received $600,000 and two checks straight to my. Straight to my house where Hayley and I were living. You know, just go put them in the bank and five days later you can have access to them. And I had no financial education growing up as, you know, a kid from a single mom household. Hayley was the exact same. And so we, we really started to kind of just lean into the things we thought were smart. And so I went and caught up on two years of Roth IRA investing because somebody said, you should talk to a financial advisor. And we ended up buying a house or putting, you know, a down payment down on a house because we thought, well, we're supposed to own a home one day. But then beyond that, we really just kind of inflated our lifestyle and started to spend money in ways that were bringing us joy, but that were not going to serve us long term. And eventually, in about three and a half years, not only did we blow through the $600,000, but we got into over $220,000 of debt just by inflating our lifestyle and again, quote, unquote, kind of doing the right Thing, but not knowing the right way to go about it.

Joel (7:12)

Okay. Yeah. Haley, what was that like for you? As you know, and Justin said, hey, neither of us had much of a financial education growing up. We're usually taught something about money, right. Whether it's like good, bad, indifferent. What was your financial education as a child like and how did that impact you?

Haley Brownswood (7:33)

My financial education as a child was just observing a lot of what not to do from my parents. Kind of fumbling the ball quite a bit.

Joel (7:40)

Yeah.

Haley Brownswood (7:41)

And we, this happened in 2016 where we got the money. In 2012 I watched my parents go through a nasty multi year divorce. They lost two houses. Like it was really financially like traumatic financial trauma is what it was for me. So when Justin and I received all of that money, it was, it was technically Justin's money, 100% his. But we combined our lives fully from the beginning. So I totally took part in spending all of the money as well. And the education was nothing about like what to do. I do have very vivid memory of that time of us just casually transferring 20 grand over from savings into our checking frequently. And we didn't really realize the money was being spent until it was totally gone. Which is a really surreal thing to go through where money is quite literally slipping through your fingers and you don't know it's happening. And then one day you blink and you're like, wait, we had how much money and it's gone. And I had had that happen in my life before with a very small inheritance I got from my uncle. It $25,000 inheritance that I got right before I moved to Sweden to study abroad. And I didn't have any education about what to do with that money. And I spent all of that in a year traveling. And then nobody ever questioned it either. No one, no one asked me what I did with the money. No one asked me if I invested it or it was never talked about again. So I think the, it all comes back to the financial education that I had was just silence. Nobody talked about anything.

Joel (9:19)

I don't think that's abnormal either. I think that's what a lot of people go through. They see maybe bad habits and then nobody talks to them about. Because who would talk to them? Their parents who don't really know much about money either. And so yeah, that sort of silence and just bad habits get passed down through osmosis. And typically we're doing our behaviors reflect what our parents did oftentimes. I'm curious too. During that period where you were inflating your lifestyle and you were spending more, Justin. Not all of it was bad. You started the Roth ira. You bought house, which at least like, hey, there's that. That's not a depreciating asset. But were you. Did you feel happy? Were there unsettled feelings, like, during that time? Like, what was going. What was going through your mind and what was your body feeling right as, like, you've got this inheritance and you're spending it down.

Justin Brownswood (10:07)

To be quite honest, I think this is the part that we might get some gruff for. We had a great time. Like, we were going out on wine dates. We were traveling to get, you know, six rows back at the Titans game, because I loved the Titans and wanted to travel Nashville all the way from California. We upgraded to a townhouse that we were renting that we probably didn't need to. We could have done way less, but we had the money to go through. And so we lived in this really nice part of town in a really nice townhouse, and we upgraded. You know, the things in there we spent on a personal trainer. It was just things that we really enjoyed in our lives. We had nice cars. It's, again, probably the thing we're gonna get gruff for. But, yeah, like, it was. It was nice. It was a fun time in our lives.

Joel (10:53)

Yeah. No, that makes sense. Like, spending money that you have. Yeah, feels good, but also when you're done with that, when it's gone, and then when you're also in credit card debt because you're like, man, we didn't even stop after the money was gone. We kept going. What does that feel like?

Justin Brownswood (11:09)

Well, I think that's the interesting part, because I wasn't aware of any of that. Haley really was managing the finances for our entire household, and I thought she was so great and just crushing it. And how lucky was I that I found a partner who was willing to shoulder this load, that I didn't even really know what was going on? I could see that Haley was stressed, and we would maybe have a conversation about it, but it wasn't really in the weeds with her. So I wasn't even fully aware of it until about a year after our wedding.

Haley Brownswood (11:35)

We.

Justin Brownswood (11:36)

At that point, the wedding was the last time that we really spent any money. From the initial pot, we had a beautiful $30,000 wedding, and that was it. We ran out of money. And a year into our marriage, we were taking a trip to Monterey for our anniversary, and we're, like, a week into the month, and Hayley says, hey, our paychecks from teaching are already Gone. So the rest of the month is gonna be put onto credit cards. And that was really the first conversation that I had of, like, oh, whoa. Like, that's. That where. That's not good.

Joel (12:05)

We're.

Justin Brownswood (12:05)

We're doing something wrong here. Like, we really screwed the pooch on this one. But up until then, I had no clue what was going on, so I wasn't even fully aware of it. I'm sure you probably were feeling way different than me at the time.

Haley Brownswood (12:17)

I tried to have conversations with him and bring up the stress at different times, but because I didn't witness people talking about money, I didn't really know how to bring it up in a way that it just. I didn't know what I was doing. And right before that, maybe like six months before that Monterey trip moment, we actually listened to the entire Dave Ramsey Total Money Makeover audiobook on a road trip. And that was the initial seed planted in both of our heads of, maybe there is another way to get out of this debt. But we didn't really do anything about it afterwards until we had the moment of, okay, we really need to. It's not like, oh, maybe we should now. Now we need to do something about this. We're in a pickle, and we need to get out of it. But, like, I don't know that looking back, I'd remember any time where I said, hey, Justin, I'm really stressed. I feel like we should be concerned. We've spent all of the money from the initial $600,000 pop. Maybe we should slow it down. I think it was just stress that stayed inside and wasn't ever made into words. And he's not dumb. He could look at the bank and see that the money wasn't there, but for some reason, it just didn't click for us that it was gone. And I think that when we really dive into all of that, it comes from the way that we were raised with not having a lot of money. We never had a lot of money. So when the money was gone, it was like, whatever. Now we're just back to natural state of just not having any money. And it didn't really feel like a big stressor that the money was gone until we realized how much debt. Debt we were in. That was stressful.

Joel (13:54)

Because then you're digging. Digging yourself out of a hole. You're. You're not just right. It's not like you just blew through. You're just like, okay, now we actually have to get back to square one. And you mentioned Dave Ramsey and I do. I have some questions about that because he. He is the man you love to hate at times, but you also. He was an instrumental part of your money journey. Like, so were you following his advice to a T. How were you, like, quickly, like, learning your own lingo, establishing your own flow? You're like, all right, I'll take a few of these tips, but now I'm going to go my own way. Like, what. What was your relationship like with him, with his. With the information that he delivers? And how did it help you? At least initially, we leaned in on.

Haley Brownswood (14:35)

Dave Ramsey for support and for community when we felt really lonely and we didn't really know how to communicate with other people about all of our debt and the current financial state that we were in. And so that was super helpful. We never really followed his system to a T, even from the beginning, but we did listen to his show for three hours a day, five days a week, for about a year and a half.

Joel (14:59)

So straight to the main vein. Dave Ramsey. Yeah. Yeah. I remember, Justin, like, you at one point, you talked about being. You listened to so much Dave, and then I think maybe your commute ended or something like that, and you're like, what am I gonna listen to, Dave? I don't.

Justin Brownswood (15:14)

Yes.

Joel (15:14)

It was like an addiction for you.

Justin Brownswood (15:15)

It literally was. I mean, it was our first year of marriage, and I would say, like, we would talk about Uncle Dave when we were in the shower together.

Joel (15:23)

Yeah.

Justin Brownswood (15:23)

And it's like, that's a very odd thing for a newlywed couple to be talking about in the shower. But it's just so. Like you said, we were just, like, mainlining Dave Ramsey, and it was. It was. All that was consuming us was his content, even if we weren't fully following his plan.

Joel (15:37)

Okay. And as. Especially people who are in significant amounts of debt like Dave, can be a really motivating force for people who are in that spot in their lives. So was that the kick in the pants you needed?

Haley Brownswood (15:48)

100%. The system of just put your head down and hustle and get it done did work very well for Justin and I. It worked very well for us, specifically our personality types. And we are the type of people that can just get it done. But what we realized over time, we now work with people directly, helping them with their finances, is that is not normal. We are definitely the anomaly in that situation for the average people who can just, like, pay off debt super fast and stay out of debt. So for us, it did work, and it was what we needed for sure in that moment.

Joel (16:26)

One of the tips that I think Dave gives, and I don't want to talk about him for too long, feels a little kind of meta. Multiple personal finance creators talking about this other personal finance creator. But he is a big part of your story. And one of the, one of the tips he gives for a lot of people who are in this sort of phase where they have a lot of credit card debt they're trying to get rid of in short order is to work multiple jobs. Justin, you. You took that advice. Were you working like three jobs at one point? And like, what was that like for you? I'm curious, is, is the intensity maybe of some of the suggestions, does that feel approachable now or does it feel ridiculous? Like, how do you think about that period of time?

Justin Brownswood (17:05)

Yeah, it was pretty intense. You know, I was teaching Monday through Friday, and then I was bartending and serving pizzas at a pizzeria and wine bar in the evening. And so I would get home from teaching, I'd kiss Haley and our daughter, and then I would go to the pizza joint and I would serve and bartend from like 4:30 to 10:00 clock at night, go home and, you know, put the cash in the manila envelope that David told us to kind of track everything on. And then I would wake up in the morning and do it again. And actually, right before the pandemic, I ended up getting a third job as a banquet server to try and pick up extra days at a really nice restaurant in wine country. Unfortunately, or maybe fortunately because of the pandemic, I never worked for that company. But, you know, I was fully prepared to have those three jobs. And, you know, Hayley and I consistently talked about this idea. And even now with our clients, you can do just about anything for a season and a reason. And there are seasons of life where maybe you do want to hustle. Maybe it helps you to get that side hustle where you're, you know, picking up a second job and throwing it towards a goal or throwing it towards something. But it's a very specific scenario, I think, that fits that. Right. I was a teacher during the pandemic, so I was teaching from home. I was still seeing my family pretty frequently. And then I was going to the pizza restaurant. And so I didn't miss out on a ton of time. If it were today where things are opened up maybe, and I was back to work and I didn't have as much time, it would be a lot more difficult. You know, I only had to go through this stage of only seeing them for an Hour a day for two months before the world shut down. And then I was teaching from home. But for those two months it was hard. It was really hard. And I don't know if I would recommend that for most folks nowadays. I think there are better ways to do it than that kind of deprivation and that go, go, go kind of hustler mentality. I don't even think I know there's better ways to do it now.

Joel (18:51)

Do you think some people burn out because of that sort of intensity? They're like, I have the right desire, but my goodness, the sort of like boot camp mentality just. It's too intense for me. I'm just opting out altogether.

Justin Brownswood (19:03)

Definitely. And I think for many people it's just kind of recreating the diet culture fad of like you can do anything if you just kind of race to burnout as fast as possible. But the question is, did you set up the right habits and patterns, behaviors to not get yourself back into that situation? And for many people, we don't. We side hustle or we find some debt payoff strategy. We pay off debt and we're like woohoo. And then we look up two years later and we're back into that debt because we never fixed any of the root causes. And I think for us that certainly could have been part of our journey as well if we didn't confront some things.

Joel (19:34)

And your main gigs, you're both teachers in California for a lot of years. Some people would say that overcoming six figures of debt is impossible on like a teacher salary. But it's not because you guys did it. So can you talk to me? Maybe what that process was like, the sacrifices you had to make and kind of the habits you had to learn in order to make that a possibility. And how long did it take to pay off that debt?

Haley Brownswood (19:58)

The first thing we did was we just started meticulously tracking every single dollar that was coming in and out of our bank. And we cut everything that was any form of extra. We definitely cut the avocado toast and we had a very basic bare budget. That's what we did. But then it was also. This is really important. It was during the pandemic. We didn't leave the house. So it was very easy for us to just not spend money. We didn't do anything that was easy enough. And because our budget was so fine tuned, any extra form of money during that period of time, we, we got Covid stimulus money. There was the child tax credit money. We were able to put that extra towards Everything. But a lot of it did come from extra money from Justin working. I also was a real estate photographer at the time, very part time. But any extra money that we got also just fully funneled there. But we got it to a point where we were able to have extra in our budget from just our teaching salary. So anything extra really made a dentist.

Joel (21:03)

And how serious were you about debt eradication? Was it, I mean, obviously getting multiple jobs, willing to get a third job, so pretty dang serious. And then didn't. Didn't you sell your home in order to, to go into a rental instead because you wanted to take that equity to pay off the debt? Like was it just kind of like, hey, we're throwing anything against the wall to see what sticks? Like this is how much we hate this debt right now.

Justin Brownswood (21:26)

Yeah, yeah. We ended up selling, you know, paid off vehicles that we had purchased and that was a big chunk to go towards student loans. The kind of final straw was, yeah, selling our home and moving away. I think a catalyst for that as well was that we were moving closer towards Haley's mom and could have some help with childcare as well while we had a young family. And so we thought, okay, are we comfortable making this decision right now in this kind of early infancy of our family to see where it's going to push us to? And eventually we did sell our home, paid off a little bit more consumer debt, but paused on paying off our student loan debt because of the wild flux that is student loan debt. And also our own personal finance education journey. The idea of paying off student loans that could potentially be forgiven under public service loan forgiveness as teachers wasn't as beneficial as investing money. Instead for us at that point, we had kind of grown out of Dave Ramsey and, and that idea of fast track towards debt and really started to decide what is the financial journey look like decades from now for our family and how can we get to that destination rather than the debt free destination.

Joel (22:31)

Haley, I'm curious to hear from you about those bigger moves that you made. Do you feel like that's necessary for most people? I mean, it sounds like you guys took some of the biggest, big moves possible. Getting additional jobs, selling the house to rent instead, selling paid off vehicles. A lot of people would say, like have that sunk cost fallacy sort of thing. Well, the vehicle's already depreciated some. I need a car to get around, right? I'm not going to sell my car. How did you guys think about the big stuff? And do you think that more people should be willing to take more bold moves like that instead of just nibbling around the edges when it comes to debt payoff.

Haley Brownswood (23:05)

This kind of sounds Dave Ramsey ish, but I think it depends on how fast and how bad you want it in the season that you're in. The season we were in was we need to pay this off as fast as humanly possible because that was our goal. But a lot of people are like, if that was us right now with young, young kids, I don't know that those moves would be made. I don't know that we would sell a very reliable vehicle that was paid off in order to fast track things when we could just keep that safe car for our family because we have young kids and we need to have a reliable vehicle and just stretch that.

Joel (23:40)

Timeline out just a little bit.

Haley Brownswood (23:41)

Right. And it really does come down to the season of life that you're in for us. It was kind of a no brainer, but. But I've seen a lot of people make those decisions and then they're kind of like, well, maybe I didn't need to do that.

Justin Brownswood (23:54)

Yeah.

Haley Brownswood (23:55)

So it really depends.

Joel (23:56)

All right, we've got. I've got a few more questions I want to get to with you guys including want to talk more about debt payoff hacks. I want to talk about budgeting. Yalls takes on budgeting and just how you've helped clients in a one on one way really make progress with their money. Not just with the numbers but with the way they think about it. We'll get to some more questions with Justin and Haley right after this.

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Joel (26:59)

All right, we're back. Still talking with Justin and Haley. They are from the Price of Avocado Toast and we're talking about their story and just really how, I don't know, maybe it's okay to eat the avocado toast. I'm curious to hear your take, guys, because you remember that was a trope for so long. There was like the Latte factor book and then it was like, man, if the millennials would just stop eating that dang avocado toast, they could probably reach financial independence in like three and a half years. Right? And some of it just feels utterly absurd, but there's also, like, a little bit of truth, right, to the small things that we do every day that add up. And if you make coffee at home versus going out, like, yeah, if you do that every day, it adds up. So I'm curious to hear. I want to hear your take. Like, why did you have. Why did you come up with the name the price of avocado toast? And then what. What's your take on those small purchases?

Justin Brownswood (27:49)

Yeah, we ended up with the name price of avocado toast for our own podcast because we did an Instagram poll about the podcast and what we were gonna talk about and said, what should we name it? And somebody said, cost of avocado toast. But we were both elementary school teachers and didn't like the vowel sounds there, like, cost of avocado. And so we went with price of avocado toast. And, you know, when we think about this idea of, like, not getting the avocado toast or not getting the latte, I think you hit it on the head. There is some truth in that, and it's up to all of us to kind of sort out what is that truth for me in my life. And maybe it's not the avocado toast, but maybe it is the daily fantasy sports gambling, or maybe it is the trips that I'm struggling to say no to with a friend, or maybe it's the thousand subscriptions that I have. Right. I think that we get very singular in this idea of, like, trimming things down and not all of it needs to be trimmed. Right. The $17 stream probably isn't moving the needle that much for you, but when you have seven of them and you get rid of four, and you throw that at your credit card instead, how much faster is that credit card paid off? And is the value there more important to you? And if it is, well, then let's do that for a season of life. Right? We went down to, I think it was Sling TV and only Sling TV when we were in the depths of our, you know, kind of journey. And that was what we had. And it was, like, really cheap. I think it was, like, maybe $9 at the time for their, like, basic plan.

Haley Brownswood (29:11)

I don't even think we had Netflix.

Justin Brownswood (29:12)

Yeah. And it worked for us. Right. And so I think that there is this honesty behind, hey, where am I spending money that doesn't align with the values that I have right now in my life? And am I comfortable getting rid of some of these things? We still want to have joy, and we still want to find ways to Build joy into your budget, which is key on the journey so that you're not, you know, burning out. But it is also confronting those harder conversations of, is this something that is serving me right now in this moment?

Joel (29:38)

And is. Is that as simple as like, weighing the pros and the cons? Hey, if I keep the streaming service around, it means my credit card debt is going to be around for another like a month and a half or whatever. Is it, is it kind of like, are you getting that granular with it? Or how are you helping people think through those decisions? Because especially for folks who are like, I feel like I've been on this debt treadmill for a long time, interest rate's like 22% now. It's kind of crushing me. It's really burdensome. We all know that debt can be mentally afflicting. So how do you help people think about those trade offs of moving more quickly towards debt payoff versus a little more slowly and incorporating some more of those things that you care about right now?

Haley Brownswood (30:19)

One of the things that we do with people pretty early on is that we do an activity that helps them identify what their values are. And once the values are identified, we can use the values and the goals together to figure out where is our money going and does it fill our cups. For some people, the value might be security and that might mean financial security. I need to know that my family's going to be okay. I need to know that we're going to have a house over our head. The bills are paid, the debt is paid off. That might be a value of theirs. And the goal might simultaneously be that they want to pay off their debt. So for them, it's really easy to just like hustle, hustle, hustle, where someone else. Their value might be travel and community and being around the people that bring them joy. So they might be unwilling to maybe sacrifice the family vacation so they're okay prolonging it. So it really does depend on what the goals are and the values for each person so we can figure out something that's going to not only make you happy, but be a society sustainable way to get to the end goal for you.

Joel (31:20)

And you two have helped clients pay off like more than $4 million worth of debt. I want to say, right? I mean, everybody has a different financial situation. But I'm curious, what are maybe like the biggest things that your clients tend to not understand or to not be doing? That feels like the lowest hanging fruit. So someone's coming to you for that initial consultation and you're like, well, have you looked at this, this, and this? And most people just hasn't crossed their mind. Their mind to look at those things. What are those things?

Justin Brownswood (31:45)

To be honest, Joel, a lot of the folks we work with are just like us back in the day, right? They were not maybe budgeting or tracking their expenses. And it is sometimes as simple as saying, hey, like, we're going to sit down and we're going to create a budget that feels really good for your life, and I'm going to show you how to track your expenses, and then I'm going to be an accountability coach. It's going to stick you to it and make sure that you are following through. And when you show somebody those numbers and make it really clear for them and just say, hey, I've run these numbers for you, and here's exactly what it can be. If you want to come along for this journey, are you up for it? And they say, yes. I mean, it's almost immediate that folks have a return. You know, the first two months working with us, they're like, oh, wow. I mean, I've already paid off this much debt, or I've already crushed this much amount, or I've already seen this light at the end of the tunnel. Because it really is just kind of this awakening, this educational piece that I think Haley and I are really good at as former teachers of saying, hey, here's the scaffolding that you need. Here's this beginning step. And if you take this step, here's where the journey's gonna go. And when we set it up for people like that and they're able to see it, there's truly no stopping people. So it's really as simple as, like, let's get on a budget. Let's track our expenses. Let's trim the dining out, let's trim the extracurriculars that you're not paying attention to. And I'm still gonna put all of this other fun stuff in your budget, and you're gonna crush debt. And doesn't that feel really good?

Joel (33:02)

Do you think part of the problem is that people assume they're doing better than they are?

Justin Brownswood (33:06)

Yes. I think you're spot on.

Joel (33:08)

When you look at the data about how much people are spending on subscriptions, they just assume that they're spending, like, 100 bucks a month, but really the average person spending, like, 300 bucks a month. So they just assume certain things that just aren't true. Maybe. And they haven't really reflected on that.

Justin Brownswood (33:23)

Yes, we see that. Sorry. God.

Haley Brownswood (33:25)

Well, I was actually going to say that people have no idea how they should be budgeting, like everything Justin said. And if people get paid every other week, they need to be budgeting on a week like pay period budget. Because if you get paid September 26th and then the next paycheck is October 5th, that paycheck goes from September 26th to October 4th. It has part of September and part of October, probably your mortgage or your rent as well. So there's this concept of budgeting by month that every single budgeting app only budgets by month. I have yet to see a budgeting app that is a pay period budgeting app. And everything you download online is just monthly budgeting templates. They continue to input their numbers. They're like, the math says I should have extra money, but I don't. I'm constantly out of money. I'm living paycheck to paycheck. Where's this going? It's a cash flow problem with how the money is coming in and the money is coming out. They really need to get clear and make it paycheck to paycheck, but on an intentional way, really. Just taking a spin of what does paycheck to paycheck look like and break it down. And once people do that, they're like, whoa, this is way easier than I thought.

Joel (34:33)

Do you think that's why people are turning to buy now, pay later, or the apps that allow you to get paid early and. And then it's only like, making the situation worse because it's like, oh, that's the only way I'll be able to afford the thing I'm. I'm trying to buy. I thought I had the money. I don't. I guess I'll just do that. Or thought the paycheck was coming in like, but. Or thought I had enough money, but I guess I need my paycheck early. And then it just becomes like this, like, really nasty cycle.

Justin Brownswood (34:56)

And the accessibility of it is so easy. I mean, obviously back in the day, you know, if you're going to a payday lender, you're walking into a store nowadays, it's on your phone at 2 in the morning when you're in the depths of some type of emotional crisis, you have access to it. And that's what's really scary to me is it's so easy to get access to it.

Joel (35:12)

All that's what I want to talk about next is like the emotion and the like. When you're talking to clients, how much of an impact does their emotional status have? How much are you addressing that? And in particular, shame. I think it can mess with a lot of people for a long period of time and not allow them really to make progress. They feel really. They feel really stuck and they feel ashamed that they don't know what to do.

Justin Brownswood (35:36)

Joel One of the questions we ask people on our initial application just to get on a free call with us to talk about what we do and what their story is and how we can maybe help, or if they need another resource, is we ask them, what are your reservations about one to one coaching? And you would think that the number one question that people say is, I don't know how I'm going to pay for this, or I don't know how to afford it.

Joel (35:55)

Right.

Justin Brownswood (35:55)

Which is the elephant in the room. Why would I pay somebody to, you know, work together to pay off my debt? That is not the biggest thing that people say. The biggest thing people say is I'm embarrassed about my debt and I don't want to be shamed. And we have heard that narrative so frequently. Just this past week, I'm in a conversation with somebody talking about the shame they're feeling around money and whether or not we should work together because they're worried that we're going to shame them. And obviously, you know, we just redirect them towards our content and say, hey, friend, like, that ain't us. You can just go watch a million videos or stories and you'll see that's not who we are. But that really is the biggest issue for many people is this shame and, and this guilt that they carry around debt. And it's, I think, because many of our clients are from the millennial generation, where we were sold this bill of goods of do X, Y and Z and life will turn out okay. And maybe they're not seeing that come to fruition. And this is just an added step on top of that of, oh, I must have done something wrong to not get to that point. And sure, we all have our own context to our story that we need to honor and say, what is my part in this? But for many of them, the shame and embarrassment of not hitting these mile markers in life is really, really heavy. So a lot of our initial work with people doesn't even start to touch a budget. It really looks at the emotional aspects and the things that are weighing them down and trying to kind of relieve that burden and set down that baggage so that we can do the rest.

Joel (37:16)

Of the work, like part therapist, part money coach, kind of a combo. Yeah. So, Haley, that's what you feel, too, when you're talking to clients like you're comfortable. You're both of those things at once.

Haley Brownswood (37:25)

Yeah. We are actually now accredited financial counselors because I really wanted to go forward with the designation of being a financial counselor because that's what I felt like I was doing. I felt like I was helping people with their finances, and I was their counselor. And so much of it is your relationship with money and how you move through the world. You. You need money, everybody needs it, and we can't get rid of it. And we need to find a way to create a healthy relationship with money and have it feel good. And once people can do that, it's healing. It is numbers, but so much deeper than numbers. Your debt is so much deeper than the numbers of the dollar signs. And any of that, there's usually a lot of stuff that led people there and really peeling the onion and saying, well, what is it that got you here? Was it a series of unfortunate events? Did you experience a really tough year? Did you have loss in your life, job loss, people dying, whatever that might be?

Joel (38:22)

Or.

Haley Brownswood (38:23)

Or was it overspending, like what we did? Or maybe a combination of both. And once we can figure out what those things are, it really helps people understand, okay, this is why I'm in this situation. And I'm not a bad person. I'm not bad with money. Maybe I just didn't have the right tools at the time. And now I'm here learning, and I have my coach by my side, and I'm ready to learn how to do this the right way. And I think one of the biggest things that I notice is people feel like I'm an adult. A lot of our clients are like 35, 45 years old. They feel like they are adults and they should be making adult decisions, but they don't even know how. Yeah, they feel stupid because they weren't taught this. And that's exactly how we felt, too. And that's where a lot of the shame stems from, which is a shame.

Joel (39:09)

And it's. I'm glad that personal finance education is becoming more accessible, more mandatory, and in many states, curious to see how that's going to shake out and how good the education is going to be and how well equipped the teachers are going to be. But at least we're going to learn, be taught something before we graduate, because there's a lot of stuff that we get taught in high school that at least I haven't used since then. And I'm not throwing shade at high School. I'm just saying, like, there are some classes that don't really. We don't use some of the skills that we learned far off into the future. But personal finance is one of those things that we all use every single day. And if we don't know the basics, then we are ripe to be taken advantage of. And you're right, like those ties between our money and our ability to live the life that we want, they're tight, they're very intense. Money is often the prevention of people being able to live that sort of life that they want. And just having a better education around money is going to make a big difference for their ability to live that life that they want. So, and I'm curious, Haley, at one point you, I think you said the right way. You put it in quotation marks. Like you want to tell people to do it the right way when you put it in quotation marks? What are you saying there? Like, is there a right way to handle money or is it contextual? Is it individualized? Like, how do you think about that?

Haley Brownswood (40:28)

I think society thinks there's a right way to manage your money. Society tells us that we need to do what we did. We need to go to college, we need to have money, we need to buy a house. You need to do all of these things. But that flow isn't necessarily reality for a lot of people. And I think when I say the right way with managing money, people want it to be that they have a lot of money, they don't have debt, they're feeling good and they have, you know, the white picket fence and they're on their merry way just like their grandparents told them to do. And it just is society from generations, it's a deep, deep thing that we feel like we have to do it the way, I don't know, it's a complex thing to even try to explain because it really also is very personal. What you think is the right way is probably different from even your partner's way of thinking is the right way. And I think it also changes over time too.

Joel (41:27)

Yeah, I think you're right. I mean, our money discussions have changed significantly over time. Our goals have changed significantly over time. And the hang ups that we had with money, some of them still exist, but to a lesser degree in many ways. But gosh, some of those things still, they still come up. Like literally this past weekend had a conversation with my wife where I'm having this emotional reaction to something going on with money. And it's really rooted in childhood stuff. And I have to remember that in the time, because for so many people, you never. People would be amazed to hear that this guy who has had a personal finance podcast for many, many years, has been working in the industry for, like, almost two decades. Like, how is it that you still let emotion get the best of you in that regard? And it just. It does like it because it is. It's. It's been there for so long, and I think that's what a lot of people are dealing with. I'm curious too, Haley. You have a Trauma of Money certification. What does that mean, and how does that help you? I guess in some of these conversations.

Haley Brownswood (42:28)

I went through the Trauma of Money program, and it was initially for my knowledge of trauma, for helping my clients and to have a trauma informed lens. But it was the most eye opening, healing thing I've ever done. And it's also another hard thing to put into words because I feel like it's been a year, but I'm still processing everything from that. But it really helps me kind of slow down and ground myself in moments with even Justin and I, where we're having a financial, maybe just like a stress moment to really sit down and say, what is this? Where is this coming from? Where do I feel this in my body? How can I release this? What is the true cause of this? And where did that come from? And then practicing that on myself and moving through my own financial trauma also helps me work with my clients that way and just understanding that this is more than money. And for a lot of people, it is. Is deep from the way that they were raised. And you can't just erase the first 20 years of your life and be like, okay, well, now I. I'm a CPA and I am good to go because I went to school and I have my bachelor's degree in economics and accounting, and I am educated. Well, if you grew up in poverty and your family didn't have a lot of money, there's a lot there that you need to work through. Just having the textbook education doesn't mean heal that. So that is kind of what all of that trauma lens stuff works through. Really? Where does this come from?

Joel (43:58)

Do you think. Do you two think that getting better with money and changing your relationship to money changed your relationship to each other? And how did that. What was the internal work like for you guys? How different do you feel? Not just because, oh, we paid off debt and we've got. We're investing for the future and we're doing the right thing, but how did that Impact you guys at like a. More like a deeper level.

Haley Brownswood (44:20)

You want to go first?

Justin Brownswood (44:20)

Sure. I think it helped a lot of different things. It gave us the tools to have really hard conversations. Even outside of finances, we're really comfortable voicing our opinions with one another in a kind way, but in also a direct way. We don't dance around issues. I think that it certainly helped our intimacy because we didn't have this stress and tension around money. We were able to.

Joel (44:43)

You don't have to talk about Dave Ramsey, Uncle Dave in the shower anymore, which is nice, right?

Justin Brownswood (44:47)

Exactly. Right. We're, you know, more light hearted. I think that it gave us this freedom to be spontaneous with boundaries, as wild as that sounds. But this, the spontaneity I think that many couples crave, they also desire a boundary around it. And for us, tidying up our money and our finances gives us those boundaries. So when we do things, it feels really good and it doesn't put us out and it feels in alignment with our goals and we're able to do it freely.

Haley Brownswood (45:19)

I definitely feel like everything that we have worked through with having a lot of money, well, first off, how we were raised, we didn't have any money growing up, and then we got lottery size winnings. It just plopped into our lap and we had a really great time and blew it all. And then also had a bunch of debt that we racked up, and then we paid off a bunch of debt. It has taught us that we can do anything together as a unit. If we go through hard times, there's nothing that we can't do. And I feel truly unstoppable having done what we did. The sacrifices and the challenge of paying off all of that debt, it was truly something. This sounds very strange, but I would do it all again in a heartbeat because we learned so much from it. And that is something that you can't learn reading a book. I can't teach people that. It's the experience. And that really was so unifying in the early years of our marriage. So I'm very thankful for everything that we've been through with that.

Joel (46:18)

Yeah, you two have lived a lot of life in seven years of marriage. All right, I've got a few more questions I want to get to with you. And we're going to go back to some nitty gritty stuff on the debt front. I want to hear your thoughts on debt consolidation. So a few more questions with Hayley and Justin right after this. Tracking your spending, well, it might seem daunting, but it's a crucial first step to taking control back. And that's because finances they can be messy and confusing. Well, Monarch Money acts like your personal cfo, giving you full visibility and control so you can stop earning and start growing. Monarch has so much functionality, but the basic dashboard even is just one of my favorite features. You get your net worth, your goals and crucial budgeting data all right there when you first log in. I love it.

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Haley Brownswood (47:47)

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Joel (48:44)

We're back. Still talking about avocado toast and how to be better with money as a couple and man. Haley and Justin, thank you for joining me. I love your vibe. I love how you guys have been able to communicate, connect with each other on money and then how you've been able to influence the lives of so many others through your the coaching that you've done together. I do want to ask some more questions about debt. I'm curious when it comes to when you're talking to your clients about debt payoff, debt consolidation is something that comes up. We get a lot of questions about debt consolidation. It's like, oh, should I take out the heloc money to pay off the credit cards and, or personal loan instead of a credit card, like maybe I can lower my interest rate. And there's all these sorts of like gamification ways that people want to begin that process. What do you tell people who ask you that question?

Haley Brownswood (49:33)

I love talking about this because it's something very relatable that a lot of people really resonate with. And I'll just say that the marketing from the debt consolidation companies, they pour a lot of money into ads and they really target people on purpose to get them at their low point where they say this is going to be the saving grace. We're going to help you out. And the answer, I wish it could be just a yes or no, but it truly depends. Debt consolidation can be the most amazing blessing for someone, but it 99% of the time is a very slippery slope. If you are not working on anything else, if you're just trying to gamify the system and consolidate your debt, but you're not working on what got you into debt or changing the behaviors or you're not going to start budgeting or actually tracking your expenses, then you will be stuck in a debt cycle. I promise that a year from after you take the HELOC out and you pay off all of your credit cards off, you will have probably twice as much credit card debt as you already had to begin with. And I've seen that scenario time and time again. And that debt cycle is created intentionally by these companies that want you to take out more personal loans to consolidate your debt and to start it over and over and over. So they're not bad if you're working on the rest of the stuff. But really you need to emphasize that hard, hard, hard with accountability. And I think that that's one of our strengths.

Joel (50:57)

Yeah, I mean it's the same with like a balance transfer credit card. Right? Where yep, that's the solution for me. All I got to do is get over paying this 20% interest rate to the credit card companies and then you do the balance transfer and then you're like, but I guess all this stuff I need to buy and you're, you're not really paying down that credit card effectively. You're putting money, you know, you're putting, you're buying stuff on the, the original credit card that, where you did the transfer from and then you end up in a much worse position. I agree with you guys on that. What's your take on credit cards in general? Because credit cards, it seems like they can be a tool to use effectively, but something like 50% of Americans just can't use them well. So does that lead you guys to tell clients, like, probably should avoid them or no?

Haley Brownswood (51:40)

I think if you're trying to pay off debt, you should stop using your credit cards entirely. And that's some, that's a hill I will die on. Because you need to tell yourself by your actual actions that you are in control. When you're in credit card debt, you feel out of control and you need to really feed yourself the confidence that I am in control of this situation. I'm going to pay this off and I'm going to do this. And you practice that by stop using the card. But credit cards in general, if you're managing your money effectively, they can be super great strategic tools for free travel and all that. But all of those benefits are completely useless the moment you pay interest. So the game, it's a whole game people think they're playing. And the banks are the puppets that are like, haha, we're gonna get everyone. And once you realize that that's what the banks are doing, it's a little easier to say, wait, I'm not gonna pay all the extra interest to Citibank, Chase or whoever. I'm gonna back off. And then once I stopped using them for six months or a year and I pay off all of my credit card debt, maybe I'll start using them a little bit and pay them off in full. But it really takes time.

Justin Brownswood (52:44)

Yeah, because I think it's almost 99% behavioral. Right. There are moments where debt happens to us and we don't have an emergency fund and we've got to use the credit card for something. But once we are working with a client and we can show them, hey, here's maybe what an emergency fund is going to look like as we get started, or here's how we're going to keep this credit card safe. We're not going to just shred it and get rid of it, but we're not going to use it anymore. We're going to take it off your Apple pay or link to your phone or whatever. I think it's, that's the only way to move forward. You know, there's so many conversations I've had with a client where I say, hey, you made a $1200 payment this month on your credit card. That's tremendous. I want you to scroll down in your transaction log and see the $870 interest payment that you also got charged on that card. So while, while you're saying, you paid $1,200. I'm so proud of you. Look at what interest took from that. That's how bad it was beating you up. You got to stop using this card. You need to put it away, and it can't continue to climb. And I agree with Hayley. You know, once you're out of that pattern and you're able to tidy up that credit card debt, if you want to use it, and you've got a good structure for gaining the points or rewards or whatnot, I think that's great. But I also think people need to be honest with themselves, because many people go through the debt payoff cycle, don't fix the habits, but they end up paying off debt somehow still. And then they start picking up the credit card again, and they're right back into debt.

Joel (53:59)

It's the same thing with, like, drinking alcohol, right? Some people, it's like, I can stop at one beer, and other people are like, I just can't, or potato chips or whatever it is like that. You find yourself super thrilled by ingesting, like you. You can overdo it really quickly. And some people have that ability to say, no, I'm done. You know, in my moderation, I can handle it in moderation. If. If somebody's listening, whether it's them or a friend, and they find themselves in, like, significant amounts of debt, or they just feel like their wheels are spinning and they don't know how to move forward, what would you tell them to do? And I guess how important or how crucial do you think one on one coaching is? Because it seems like that sort of relationship allows a lot of people to jump start and start making progress that have otherwise, whether it's books or other ways of gleaning information about personal finance, they've been unable to really. That hasn't worked well.

Haley Brownswood (54:51)

There's a psychological thing that happens when you pay money for something. People care about where their money goes. And when you say that you want to make the change and you invest in that change, whatever that is, and this could also be like paying a personal trainer to get fit. You're more likely to show up for yourself, and you're more likely to show up for the other person as well. And frequently in the beginning, people say, haley, I only did my homework because I have this scheduled. I say, but you did it. You showed up and you did it, and we're gonna move forward. And I would say to someone who's stuck in a bunch of debt, or they're just looking to find the next how do I get out of this? The first thing you need to do is just kind of try to breathe and forgive yourself for some of the stuff that you've done because. Or the situation you're in because a lot of the shame is just so debilitating. And that's a lot of what we do. But you can also work on that without a coach. Now coaching is, I think what we do is amazing and we love helping people, but it's for specific people. What would you say?

Justin Brownswood (55:55)

I would agree with all that. I would just say logistically, people need to write down their numbers clearly.

Haley Brownswood (55:58)

Yeah.

Justin Brownswood (55:59)

People will say, like, I think I have about $10,000 of credit card debt. And then they go. And they go, oh my gosh, like I saw what everything is and it's actually, yeah, 35,000 or, or even, you know, way off. Yeah. Or I had, you know, down to this exact number and my. I'm actually over on that credit card. I didn't even realize that I was past the limit somehow. And it's because we want to do the ostrich thing. The ostrich thing isn't going to work. Whether you're working with a coach or trying to DIY this by yourself, the ostrich bury your head in the sand will never get you where you want to be. So you got to come up for air and you got to write down the numbers and get a little bit vulnerable with yourself.

Joel (56:30)

Beautiful way to end it. Haley, Justin, thank you so much for joining me. Where. Where can how to money listeners go find out more about you guys and. And also like, yeah, your coaching and see the price of avocado toast. Everything in that underbelly.

Justin Brownswood (56:44)

Yeah. You can go to our website priceofavocadotoast.com across all social medias. We're just priceofavocado toast. If you search that we should hopefully show up, you can see kinda who we are in our day to day and what we do as coaches and how we show up for folks. And in all of our social media and on our website, our one to one coaching application is linked. If somebody wants to fill it out. We meet for a free call just to hear more about their story and whether or not we're the right fit for them. And if not, we'll show them maybe the right resource or who is so. Yeah.

Joel (57:11)

Awesome. Thanks for joining me. I appreciate it.

Justin Brownswood (57:13)

Awesome. Thanks, Joel. Appreciate you.

Haley Brownswood (57:14)

Thank you.

Joel (57:16)

Okay. I'm just a big fan of both Hayley and Justin and with their powers combined, they become like captain Planet and the work they're doing in this space with individuals and then just reaching people in a larger way through their own podcast and social media. It's a beautiful thing to behold, and they really are changing lives. When you think about two people helping a bunch of people pay off $4 million worth of debt, that's incredible. That's laudable. It's worth highlighting. And I think there's like a million things I could highlight as big takeaways from this conversation. I love, kind of towards the end, when Haley said to invest in the change you want to see in your own life and how that can look like paying a financial counselor like them, right, To. To be that accountability partner for you. And if you've got some money, some skin in the game towards that goal that you want, if that really is your goal, like, hey, we get a gym membership if we want to get ripped, right? Well, if you want to get your money together, maybe it makes sense to, like, buy a book or to pony up for a counselor relationship. But whatever that is for you, invest in the change that you're trying to see and then realize. I think, too, I love what they were talking about how as you make progress with your money, especially if you're in a relationship, I think just the relationship to yourself, because money impacts so many areas of our lives, your relationship to yourself can change significantly in the process of getting good with your finances. So it's not really just about building your net worth and increasing your wealth and decreasing your debt. Those are great things. Those are worthy goals. And just realize that there's going to be some really cool byproducts involved at the same time as you're making progress with your money, because you're going to learn more about yourself and what makes you tick. And you're going to gain knowledge, but you're also going to gain perspective. And so, yeah, Justin and Haley talked about the fact that they. They have better combos in every area of life now. And I think that's true. I think, like, as my wife and I made progress with our money, the way it impacted our relationship, not to say it was easy. It wasn't always easy. Some of those conversations are hard. Sometimes money conversations are still hard because they bring up those ancillary parts, those other parts of you that make you a whole human being. And you have to drag those into the conversation about money, too. So it's not always easy, but it's always worthwhile because we're growing together in deeper ways. And so I think the more you take money off the table as a topic that you're interested in pursuing yourself to make progress. The more you take it off the table of your relationships, whether it's a spouse or whether it's friends. The more we don't talk about money, the more we're doing a disservice to ourselves. Because I do think that it can allow us to grow and thrive in some beautiful ways and also like we'll just spread the money knowledge, right? So that so that we can understand some best practices with money and how those relate to our ability to live the life that we want and to thrive. Because really that's what it's about. None of us are aiming for those or know how. The money listeners that I have met are aiming for those Elon Musk, Bill Gates, Warren Buffett levels of wealth. They really just want to feel confident in their finances. They want to be doing have more optionality in the future. They want to be working towards brighter, bigger goals for their family. That's what I want, that's what I want, and that's what I want for you. So I hope this episode was inspiring. Thank you as always for listening. Show Notes will be up on the website@howtomoney.com until next time, Best Friend out.

PayPal Advertiser (61:14)

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Hello Divorce Advertiser (61:45)

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Washable Sofas Advertiser (62:15)

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PayPal Advertiser (63:14)

This is an I Heart podcast.