How to Money – Ep. #1034: Financial Freedom on Less than $40k w/ Hope Ware
Date: September 10, 2025
Host: Joel (co-host with Matt, not present)
Guest: Hope Ware, co-founder of Under the Median
Episode Overview
In this episode of How to Money, Joel sits down with Hope Ware, creator behind the site and YouTube channel "Under the Median", to discuss how she and her husband Larry achieved financial freedom, paid off a house, raised four sons, and lived an abundant, joyful life—all on an average income under $40,000 per year. Hope shares practical tips, mindset shifts, and personal stories aimed at helping others thrive financially, regardless of their income. The conversation is candid and inspiring, emphasizing the power of priorities, frugality without deprivation, and the importance of agency in one's money journey.
Main Discussion & Key Insights
1. Frugality ≠ Deprivation: Prioritize What Matters (03:41–05:10)
- Hope’s Philosophy: Frugality is not about going without joy, but about spending according to your values.
- Quote: “Frugality is about really figuring out how to spend your dollars on the things that matter most. ... So when you have the opportunity to take a glorious five or six day vacation with your family ... you’ve prioritized that and you’re able to do it knowing the money is there.” – Hope Ware (04:34)
- The biggest driver of financial change is figuring out where your money actually goes. Most people grossly underestimate their spending.
2. The Beginning: Rock Bottom to Getting in Sync (06:41–09:51)
- On marriage: Hope and Larry had not talked about money before getting married and were quickly in financial trouble (07:08).
- Quote: “I think that if we don’t do something really quickly, we’re going to go down the rabbit hole of credit card debt. We gotta figure out where the money’s going.” – Hope Ware (07:55)
- The key was partnership and communication, including understanding each other's learning styles to work towards shared goals.
3. Taking Action: Tracking, Substitutions, and Gamification (10:31–23:20)
- They began by tracking every expense for 30 days. Dining out was their biggest leak, so they replaced it with low-cost activities like picnics.
- Created goal charts, set mini-goals (e.g., eat out just once a month) and made “creative substitutions” to prevent a feeling of deprivation.
- Gamification: Turned saving and spending reductions into small, achievable targets to build momentum and spark joy.
- Quote: “You set a goal, and when you reach the goal, you have some sort of mini celebration. ... Life is never without goals.” – Hope Ware (22:38)
4. Income vs. Spending: Quality of Life over Bigger Paychecks (13:52–16:16)
- Increasing income wasn’t the main focus; instead, they maximized happiness within their means and set written goals.
- Living on one modest, Midwest income helped—but the key, Hope argues, is always aligning spending with what you genuinely value.
5. Home Ownership: Affordability & Cash Purchases (18:20–21:49)
- Bought homes below what banks said they could afford, paid off mortgage in 5 years, bought subsequent house with cash.
- Used micro-goals, diligent scenario testing, and strict thresholds to make big steps possible.
6. Raising Kids Frugally—Lessons in Delayed Gratification (40:51–45:43)
- Never just said “no, we can’t afford it.” Instead, wants went on a list, they researched prices, and learned delayed gratification.
- From ages 5–13, the kids got an allowance and bought wants; learned from mistakes when cheap toys broke. At 13, parents matched half the cost of saving towards big goals if the child worked for the other half.
- Quote: “They learned so much from that ... that they wouldn’t have learned had we gone out and spent the five bucks.” – Hope Ware (43:54)
7. Frugal Strategies: Grocery Shopping and Creative Cuts (27:47–39:35)
- Major grocery savings: Rely on store brands, plan meals around "loss leaders" (sales), and use the “1/5 method” for stock-up purchases.
- Quote: “The only thing on sale on that display is the cauliflower. ... recognizing what they are doing to try to get you to spend money and then figuring out your tactics to avoid it.” – Hope Ware (37:42)
- Substituted paper napkins with reusable squares cut from old clothes.
- Prioritize giving and service, even on a small budget, to cultivate gratitude and abundance.
8. Emotional Spending and Money Leaks (33:21–36:26)
- Most people overspend on groceries and fall prey to impulse/emotional spending.
- Quote: “People spend money because they get depressed because they don't have enough money. So they spend more because they’re depressed about not having enough money. ... When you name it, it makes it powerless.” – Hope Ware (35:02–36:26)
9. Consistent Learning: “Student of Saving Money” (32:23–33:21)
- Even after 35+ years, Hope still reads, adapts, and tries new frugal methods. Staying flexible is crucial as circumstances and available resources change.
10. Building Wealth on a Low Income (49:41–52:41)
- Biggest regret: Waiting until mid-40s to start investing. Saving for retirement is harder with lower income, but small, consistent contributions add up, and living “lean” makes it possible to retire even on modest savings.
- Quote: “Start young. This is a mistake that we honestly made ... we really did not start investing, investing until Larry was in his mid-40s. And that was a huge mistake.” – Hope Ware (50:07)
11. Transportation: E-Bikes, One-Car Living, and Saving Big (53:00–55:18)
- Larry commuted by E-bike for years; cutting down to one car during tight times both saved money and, in Hope's words, brought joy to daily life.
- Memorable Story: Larry walked down the aisle at their son’s wedding with a cane after a biking accident, refusing to miss the event. (53:13–54:25)
12. Under the Median: Spreading the Message (56:08–57:46)
- Hope and Larry’s “Under the Median” YouTube channel has 216,000+ subscribers and close to half a million monthly views, helping others worldwide find financial freedom on smaller-than-average incomes.
Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments
- “People put frugality in this box that says frugal is equal to deprivation. Those two words are not synonymous for us.” – Hope Ware (04:34)
- “When a goal is overwhelming, you have to break it down to smaller increments.” – Hope Ware (51:50)
- “After we paid those two cars off, we avoided debt like the plague.” – Hope Ware (52:20)
- “You set a goal, and when you reach the goal, you have some sort of mini celebration. ... Life is never without goals.” – Hope Ware (22:38)
- “There’s nothing better than reminding yourself there are other folks out there who are also struggling, and doing what you can to help them is just so important at any level of income.” – Hope Ware (29:14)
- On working with a partner: “You have to understand your partner’s method of learning. ... If I make you a chart ... does that work for you? ... Gold, do it.” – Hope Ware (08:48)
- “Most people don’t want to hear about goals. ... Sad but true news: These are interlinked.” – Hope Ware (15:25)
Timestamps for Key Segments
| Segment | Timestamp | |---------------------------------------------------------------|--------------| | Frugality & Joyful Living – Opening Story | 03:41–05:10 | | The Early Money Struggles & Partnership | 07:08–09:51 | | Getting Started: Tracking and Creative Substitutions | 10:31–12:58 | | Income vs. Spending, Value-Driven Choices | 13:52–16:16 | | Home Buying on a Low Income | 18:20–21:49 | | Gamifying Financial Progress | 22:38–23:20 | | Raising Four Boys, Teaching Delayed Gratification | 40:51–45:43 | | Grocery Savings & Frugal Cuts | 27:47–39:35 | | Impulse Spending & Emotional Triggers | 33:21–36:26 | | Building Wealth on a Small Income, Avoiding Debt | 49:41–52:41 | | E-Bikes, One-Car Living, and Real-Life Savings | 53:00–55:18 | | Spreading the Word: Under the Median on YouTube | 56:08–57:46 |
Final Takeaways
- Mindset matters: Believing you can live well below the median and setting concrete, prioritized goals is essential.
- Track and substitute: Knowing exactly where your money goes and substituting expensive habits with joyful, cheaper ones is transformative.
- Celebrate wins: Mini milestones and celebrations (even small/free) keep motivation high.
- Flexibility and learning: Keep adapting, reading, and trying new things.
- Agency is key: “The change starts with you.” Regaining a sense of control sets everything else in motion.
Find Hope at:
- underthemedian.com
- YouTube: Under the Median
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