Financial Freedom on Less than $40k w/ Hope Ware #1034

Summary

How to Money – Ep. #1034: Financial Freedom on Less than $40k w/ Hope Ware

Date: September 10, 2025
Host: Joel (co-host with Matt, not present)
Guest: Hope Ware, co-founder of Under the Median

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Episode Overview

In this episode of How to Money, Joel sits down with Hope Ware, creator behind the site and YouTube channel "Under the Median", to discuss how she and her husband Larry achieved financial freedom, paid off a house, raised four sons, and lived an abundant, joyful life—all on an average income under $40,000 per year. Hope shares practical tips, mindset shifts, and personal stories aimed at helping others thrive financially, regardless of their income. The conversation is candid and inspiring, emphasizing the power of priorities, frugality without deprivation, and the importance of agency in one's money journey.

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Main Discussion & Key Insights

1. Frugality ≠ Deprivation: Prioritize What Matters (03:41–05:10)

• Hope’s Philosophy: Frugality is not about going without joy, but about spending according to your values.
  • Quote: “Frugality is about really figuring out how to spend your dollars on the things that matter most. ... So when you have the opportunity to take a glorious five or six day vacation with your family ... you’ve prioritized that and you’re able to do it knowing the money is there.” – Hope Ware (04:34)
• The biggest driver of financial change is figuring out where your money actually goes. Most people grossly underestimate their spending.

2. The Beginning: Rock Bottom to Getting in Sync (06:41–09:51)

• On marriage: Hope and Larry had not talked about money before getting married and were quickly in financial trouble (07:08).
  • Quote: “I think that if we don’t do something really quickly, we’re going to go down the rabbit hole of credit card debt. We gotta figure out where the money’s going.” – Hope Ware (07:55)
• The key was partnership and communication, including understanding each other's learning styles to work towards shared goals.

3. Taking Action: Tracking, Substitutions, and Gamification (10:31–23:20)

• They began by tracking every expense for 30 days. Dining out was their biggest leak, so they replaced it with low-cost activities like picnics.
• Created goal charts, set mini-goals (e.g., eat out just once a month) and made “creative substitutions” to prevent a feeling of deprivation.
• Gamification: Turned saving and spending reductions into small, achievable targets to build momentum and spark joy.
  • Quote: “You set a goal, and when you reach the goal, you have some sort of mini celebration. ... Life is never without goals.” – Hope Ware (22:38)

4. Income vs. Spending: Quality of Life over Bigger Paychecks (13:52–16:16)

• Increasing income wasn’t the main focus; instead, they maximized happiness within their means and set written goals.
• Living on one modest, Midwest income helped—but the key, Hope argues, is always aligning spending with what you genuinely value.

5. Home Ownership: Affordability & Cash Purchases (18:20–21:49)

• Bought homes below what banks said they could afford, paid off mortgage in 5 years, bought subsequent house with cash.
• Used micro-goals, diligent scenario testing, and strict thresholds to make big steps possible.

6. Raising Kids Frugally—Lessons in Delayed Gratification (40:51–45:43)

• Never just said “no, we can’t afford it.” Instead, wants went on a list, they researched prices, and learned delayed gratification.
• From ages 5–13, the kids got an allowance and bought wants; learned from mistakes when cheap toys broke. At 13, parents matched half the cost of saving towards big goals if the child worked for the other half.
  • Quote: “They learned so much from that ... that they wouldn’t have learned had we gone out and spent the five bucks.” – Hope Ware (43:54)

7. Frugal Strategies: Grocery Shopping and Creative Cuts (27:47–39:35)

• Major grocery savings: Rely on store brands, plan meals around "loss leaders" (sales), and use the “1/5 method” for stock-up purchases.
  • Quote: “The only thing on sale on that display is the cauliflower. ... recognizing what they are doing to try to get you to spend money and then figuring out your tactics to avoid it.” – Hope Ware (37:42)
• Substituted paper napkins with reusable squares cut from old clothes.
• Prioritize giving and service, even on a small budget, to cultivate gratitude and abundance.

8. Emotional Spending and Money Leaks (33:21–36:26)

• Most people overspend on groceries and fall prey to impulse/emotional spending.
  • Quote: “People spend money because they get depressed because they don't have enough money. So they spend more because they’re depressed about not having enough money. ... When you name it, it makes it powerless.” – Hope Ware (35:02–36:26)

9. Consistent Learning: “Student of Saving Money” (32:23–33:21)

• Even after 35+ years, Hope still reads, adapts, and tries new frugal methods. Staying flexible is crucial as circumstances and available resources change.

10. Building Wealth on a Low Income (49:41–52:41)

• Biggest regret: Waiting until mid-40s to start investing. Saving for retirement is harder with lower income, but small, consistent contributions add up, and living “lean” makes it possible to retire even on modest savings.
  • Quote: “Start young. This is a mistake that we honestly made ... we really did not start investing, investing until Larry was in his mid-40s. And that was a huge mistake.” – Hope Ware (50:07)

11. Transportation: E-Bikes, One-Car Living, and Saving Big (53:00–55:18)

• Larry commuted by E-bike for years; cutting down to one car during tight times both saved money and, in Hope's words, brought joy to daily life.
  • Memorable Story: Larry walked down the aisle at their son’s wedding with a cane after a biking accident, refusing to miss the event. (53:13–54:25)

12. Under the Median: Spreading the Message (56:08–57:46)

• Hope and Larry’s “Under the Median” YouTube channel has 216,000+ subscribers and close to half a million monthly views, helping others worldwide find financial freedom on smaller-than-average incomes.

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• “People put frugality in this box that says frugal is equal to deprivation. Those two words are not synonymous for us.” – Hope Ware (04:34)
• “When a goal is overwhelming, you have to break it down to smaller increments.” – Hope Ware (51:50)
• “After we paid those two cars off, we avoided debt like the plague.” – Hope Ware (52:20)
• “You set a goal, and when you reach the goal, you have some sort of mini celebration. ... Life is never without goals.” – Hope Ware (22:38)
• “There’s nothing better than reminding yourself there are other folks out there who are also struggling, and doing what you can to help them is just so important at any level of income.” – Hope Ware (29:14)
• On working with a partner: “You have to understand your partner’s method of learning. ... If I make you a chart ... does that work for you? ... Gold, do it.” – Hope Ware (08:48)
• “Most people don’t want to hear about goals. ... Sad but true news: These are interlinked.” – Hope Ware (15:25)

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Timestamps for Key Segments

| Segment | Timestamp | |---------------------------------------------------------------|--------------| | Frugality & Joyful Living – Opening Story | 03:41–05:10 | | The Early Money Struggles & Partnership | 07:08–09:51 | | Getting Started: Tracking and Creative Substitutions | 10:31–12:58 | | Income vs. Spending, Value-Driven Choices | 13:52–16:16 | | Home Buying on a Low Income | 18:20–21:49 | | Gamifying Financial Progress | 22:38–23:20 | | Raising Four Boys, Teaching Delayed Gratification | 40:51–45:43 | | Grocery Savings & Frugal Cuts | 27:47–39:35 | | Impulse Spending & Emotional Triggers | 33:21–36:26 | | Building Wealth on a Small Income, Avoiding Debt | 49:41–52:41 | | E-Bikes, One-Car Living, and Real-Life Savings | 53:00–55:18 | | Spreading the Word: Under the Median on YouTube | 56:08–57:46 |

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Final Takeaways

• Mindset matters: Believing you can live well below the median and setting concrete, prioritized goals is essential.
• Track and substitute: Knowing exactly where your money goes and substituting expensive habits with joyful, cheaper ones is transformative.
• Celebrate wins: Mini milestones and celebrations (even small/free) keep motivation high.
• Flexibility and learning: Keep adapting, reading, and trying new things.
• Agency is key: “The change starts with you.” Regaining a sense of control sets everything else in motion.

Find Hope at:

• underthemedian.com
• YouTube: Under the Median

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Transcript

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[Joel]

Bring the boom. Xboom welcome to how to Money. I'm Joel and today we're talking financial freedom on less than 40,000 with hopeware. Alright, do you want to live joyfully and abundantly on a shoe string budget? Is it even possible? Or is that something from a bygone era with headlines shouting that a million dollars isn't what it used to be and folks making $300,000 living paycheck to paycheck as they exist far above their means, achieving financial independence on a $40,000 salary. Kind of sounds like a pipe dream, right? But my guest today is proof that it's possible and that you can have a good time along the way too. You, you don't have to like have no fun. So HopeWare runs the site and the YouTube channel under the median along with her husband Larry. They seek to instruct and inspire others to spend less, to save more, and to live joyfully on a mid five figure income. So Hope, I am so excited to have you on the show today. Thank you for joining me.

[HopeWare]

Thanks for asking me to join you. I'm excited to be here.

[Joel]

Okay, first question and I'm especially curious to hear your answer to this because we, Matt and I, like to drink craft beer. Nice craft beer on occasion. You and I emailed and you had just gone to New Glarus Brewing.

[HopeWare]

Absolutely.

[Joel]

Splurged on some delicious beers there. But also when you're trying to pinch pennies on a small salary, what is your craft beer equivalent? What's your splurge?

[HopeWare]

Okay, so I will say that our splurge was that five day vacation to New Glarus, Wisconsin. We took all four of our kids, their families with us and we had a blast. And I think the thing is we figured out about three years ago we wanted to prioritize. My favorite word in the whole wide world, prioritize. We wanted to prioritize that. So we figured out how much money do we need to set aside every single month? You know, what's the goal? What is the budget? And we set that a long time ago and we joyfully spent every single penny of it.

[Joel]

I love that you said prioritized and then joyfully spent because I think those two things go hand in hand. Why is prioritized your favorite word in the world?

[HopeWare]

Because that is the main thing that people need to understand. People put frugality in this box that says frugal is equal to deprivation. Those two words are not synonymous for us. Frugality is about really figuring out how to spend your dollars on the things that matter most. So you're going to spend a little less on things that aren't as important to you. So that when you have the opportunity to take a glorious five or six day vacation with your family to Wisconsin. You have figured out ahead of time you're gonna do it. You've prioritized that and you're able to do it knowing the money is there and you've planned for it and you're gonna do it.

[Joel]

Is that a mindset shift or an action shift? Right. So because you're right, I think a lot of people, there's this mental hangup. They hear the word frugality, they shut down. You're trying to ruin my life. You're trying to prevent me from doing the things that I enjoy, that I want. So why have those words become synonymous and what does it take to kind of unlink that?

[HopeWare]

Well, I think people, people give up hope. So this is the one thing that we have discovered in all the years of running under the median is that people feel stuck, genuinely stuck. They have convinced themselves, this is the way my life is. It doesn't matter what I do. Nothing's going to change. So you have to realize that the change starts with you. And here's the number one thing, it starts with people figuring out where their money's going in the first place. The number one mistake we see people make is that they estimate, well, how much are you spending on groceries? Well, I think I'm spending $500 a month. But if they track it in reality, they're spending 650 in a heartbeat, if not more than that.

[Joel]

There are those studies about how much people spend on subscriptions versus how much they think they spend on subscriptions. And people are wildly inaccurate in their estimations.

[HopeWare]

You know, I just read a study, and that's one of the things that we do is we read all the time about saving money because it's like our pat to figure this thing out. And there was just recently a study done that said like, 40% of Americans can't list all of their monthly subscriptions. They don't know what they're even paying for.

[Joel]

I believe it. I believe it. Okay, I want to go back in your story just a little bit, and then we'll kind of come back around to this. But 1988. Take me back in time when you and Larry got married. And I even dug in a little bit about your kind of like dating and getting to know each other story, which is fascinating. If other people want to go down that rabbit hole, it's an interesting one. But things weren't looking great financially when you two tied the knot. What was going on financially for you? Guys at that time.

[HopeWare]

So we get married, and we have had zero conversations about money. Which seems really odd that we spent a lot of time dating and we never brought up, well, how are we actually going to make ends meet? One should talk about those things before one gets married. So spoiler alert. If you're dating somebody, you should probably talk about those things before you decide to tie the knot. We didn't. And we were living in an apartment, Was really too much rent for our income level, but we didn't know it because we weren't tracking anything. Two months after we get married, I open the bank statement. It takes 25 bucks to keep the account open. And we've got like 3250 in there. So basically we got $7.50. And I called Larry and I said, do you have any money? He goes, oh, Yeah, I got 20 bucks in my wallet. I'm like, great, we now have 2750 until Fay Day. And I said, look, we are clearly because we got money for wedding gifts, right? And it took us two months to go through that cash. I said, I think we have a serious problem. We were paying on two cars. We didn't have credit card debt. So that was huge. And I told him, I said, I think that if we don't do something really quickly, we're going to go down the rabbit hole of credit card debt. In order to just survive from one month to the next. We got to figure out how to live within our means, because right now, this is our means. We got to figure out where the money's going.

[Joel]

So were you. That was the catalyst. It seemed the bank account with almost nothing in it. Was it hard to get on the same page to. And you kind of had that. You had this realization that things needed to change. Was it hard to convince Larry or was like, no, no, no, we got to get. We got to go after this together.

[HopeWare]

Well, one of the things that was interesting is I told him, I said, so. So my main goal is the next time that we replace a car, we pay cash for a car. And he said, you are crazy. Nobody does that. I'm like, well, really? So we're be the first then, because we're going to do this. And the thing that I realized was that I am like, this visionary that says, oh, this is the goal. We're going to go for it. And he is the concrete, sequential. You have to understand your partner's method of learning. It's not even their love language. It's the way that they learn and conceptualize information. And I said, if I make you a chart that shows where we're at and where we want to be and the steps we're going to take to get there, does that work for you? And he's like, gold, do it. And I did it. And as soon as he saw it on paper, he's like, I got it. So you have to understand that, first of all, you're a team. You're going to work together, but you've got to get inside your partner's learning modality and say, this is how you can see it.

[Joel]

I think it's really helpful advice because a lot of people say, this is how I want to do it. But you're in a partnership, so you have to think about, well, how's my. My spouse going to respond to that as well? If you're single, in some ways it is easier because you're not dealing with another person's spending or savings habits or their hangups or, you know, having to get on the same page. So what was that process like then for you guys of actually dialing down and getting started? And what were your. What were your initial goals? Because you had some debt. You had those two car payments that you had in your life that you didn't want to have anymore. So was that like the absolute first thing you wanted to ditch or where were you. Where were you headed?

[HopeWare]

Well, the first thing we did was track everywhere the money was going for 30 days because we had no. We had no clue. And as soon as we saw it on paper, we realized that the number one money sucking habit we had was going out to eat. And we weren't going out to eat any more than the average couple does in the United States of America. But for us, on our income, that was too much. So we started to set, like, mini goals. We'll go out to eat once a month instead of every week. Then you figure out, if we're not going to go out to eat, what are we going to do? So we started going on picnics on Friday nights. We started figuring out that if you're going to reach financial goals, especially on low income, you got to figure out those substitutions so that you don't begin to feel like you're not having any fun in your life. So what is a creative substitution we can use for this or for that or for the other thing? So we started figuring out substitutions for we're not going to do this, we're going to do that. You know that old book, eat this, not that. And it was kind of like that. We're like, we're not going to do this, we're going to do that. And once we got those down, especially on paper, because I am a visual learner, it has to be on paper in front of me or I just don't get it. Even if I hear it, I'm like, nope, nope. Got to be on paper. I got to see it. Once I see it and it's in my brain, I'm like, I am on it. And so we figured out that and then we were like, we, we gotta move. Because Rhett was our next highest payment. And he's like, where are we gonna move? I said, I don't know, but someplace other than here. And it was really weird. We went for a walk, believe it or not, in the neighborhood where we were living, and we walked down the side street, we're like, we saw this cute little one bedroom house and it looked empty. And Larry goes, there's a little teeny tiny, Literally, it was a three by five card right near the mailbox. And I'm like, huh? And Larry goes, I'll bet it's for rent. I'm like, seriously, you see a house that kind of looks empty, you see a three by five card and you immediately go to, it's for rent. Well, it was.

[Joel]

Sounds like Larry's optimistic.

[HopeWare]

He was like, he knew it. And so we looked at the little card and it said for rent. And we call and it was by golly, less rent than we were paying for our two bedroom apartment. And it was a one bedroom house. And we're like, we can make this work. You got to figure out what you're going to do to make things work. Because look, the status quo isn't working for you, right? So we had to figure out how we were going to change the pendulum of the status quo and come up with a new normal.

[Joel]

So, okay, a lot of people in the personal finance space would say, yeah, yeah, yeah, you can cut some of those costs. And that's, that's a good thing to do. And yeah, rent is one of the biggest line items in your budget. So good on you. Super smart, you know, cut that, cut that back. But then the other side of the equation, a lot of people would say, you have to grow your income though. Like you gotta, you gotta up your skills and work more hours. And you, you know, you worked in radio like I did. And you and I both talking about before we started recording that, you know, radio is not the most lucrative industry to be in, especially today. So, yeah, what was and that's a whole part, I think, of why your message resonates with so many people is like, we did this and we never made six figures. We weren't like crushing, crushing, crushing. And this wasn't our massive goal. Why did that not enter the equation more for y' all as you were kind of starting to get on that road to financial progress?

[HopeWare]

Well, so for one thing, for us, it was figuring out what equilibrium looked like. So we had to like, basically stop the bleeding and figure out how we were going to right size, where we were at now with how much we were spending. For us, it was all about figure out how to live within the means that you have now. Now, we eventually picked up a few little side gigs and figured out how to bring in a little extra money here and there. But for us, it was also quality of life. It was how much time are we gonna spend together? What is important to us as far as the amount of time we're able to spend together as a couple, versus the sacrifice, so to speak, of living in a one bedroom house for four years that we were renting. For us, that sacrifice was worth it. And it's all about, you got to figure out what's most important to you. And could we have made more income? I guess, you know, we were young, we could have gone back to school. We could have. But in our industry, in radio, it was all about experience. And I could have applied at some other stations and things like that, but I wouldn't have made substantially more than I was already making. I would have had to change career fields.

[Joel]

So spending less just was felt more like that's what I want to do. Like, I'm not interested in going back to school, in finding a new career. I'm not even interested in kind of applying other places. You liked your life. And so the goal of earning a lot more money just like, wasn't that wasn't a catalyst for y'? All.

[HopeWare]

No, it was the fact that we were really happy with where we were.

[Joel]

Yeah.

[HopeWare]

And for us, making money was never the end goal. You know, personal happiness and satisfaction. You know, a whole lot of people who make a whole lot of money who aren't happy, like, happiness doesn't come from money. And the other. Here's the other thing. This was the other catalyst and this was important. We created a set of written goals. And I tell people all the time, people don't want to hear. They want to hear about saving money, but they don't want to hear about goals. I have sad but true news These are interlinked. They go together. And so having written goals and we could see ourselves making progress toward those goals consistently and at times far more rapidly than we thought we were going to make progress. And we're like, could we go back to school? Yeah, we probably could. But what do we really want to do that? Because we're still. We're still hitting those goals. And that was important to us to enjoy our life while we're doing that.

[Joel]

Okay. I think one important thing that we have to know, making what y' all were making, making what you say on your site less than $40,000 a year average over your. Over your lifetime earnings, essentially you and Larry that where'd you live? And does how much does, like, cost of living? Because I'm guessing people living in New York City or Los Angeles or Seattle right now listening to this are like, come on, guys, that, that ain't going to cut it for me. I'm sure you hear that retort also from people you're talking to.

[HopeWare]

We were living in the Midwest, and housing in the Midwest, far south of Chicago is pretty reasonable. So we were really, really fortunate to be living where we were living. You got to remember when the story starts, it was 1988. And so, you know, making what we were making in 1988, which was, I don't know, we were making probably a buck, buck and a half above minimum wage each in 1988. Yeah, that was still a fairly low income. But, I mean, there. I get that there's a disparity there. I totally own that. I understand that. And that's why we say we made an average of $40,000 a year over the first 20 years that we were parents. We averaged. I averaged our income every year for that 20 years, and it averaged under $40,000 a year. So we always say we made around $40,000 a year, and that's when we were paying parents and we were having more children and things like that, which.

[Joel]

I want to talk about in a bit, too, because not only it wasn't just the two of you, at some point, four kids come along. So we'll get to that in just a minute. I'm curious, too, more about the positive changes you were implementing, because eventually you get to this point in your financial progress and with some of those goals that you have. I remember you talking about wanting to pay cash for a house, and I would imagine most people listening would say making less than 40 grand a year, making like $1.25 above minimum wage, buying a house with cash. There's like something missing in that equation. I don't see how that works out. But you made it work.

[HopeWare]

Yeah, well, by the time that we paid cash for the house, we were making more than $1.25 an hour over minimum wage. So. Yeah, so that's, you know, that is in the equation as well. That $40,000 is an average over 20 years. So we were making about 40, $45,000 a year. When we decided, you know what, we had bought our first home, we put 20% down. It was in an estate, so it was really inexpensive and we bought what we could afford. We paid it off in five years and we lived in another 13 years. So two bedroom house.

[Joel]

When you say we bought what we could afford, what do you mean by that? Because when you're talking to a lender, they'll say, you can totally afford this as long as you take out a 30 year mortgage. Like you can, you can probably handle those monthly payments. But you, it sounds like your definition of afford was different.

[HopeWare]

Yeah, we took what the bank said the maximum they said they would loan us and we cut it by about 35% because I was like, we looked at each other and said, I wouldn't loan us that kind of money.

[Joel]

Yes, that sounds really wise. That sounds really wise.

[HopeWare]

Just being really aware of what your threshold is and sticking to that threshold. But you know, we have kids right now. Housing right now has gone a little crazy. Even in the Midwest, it's, it's, it's tough to get a home. And we have, our oldest son and his wife are looking to buy. And so we go through scenarios with them. One of you could get a better paying job. You could do that, you could double down on saving that down payment. Because the higher your down payment, then the more mortgage that you can afford. Because, you know, if you're looking at a $50,000 down payment versus a $25,000 down payment, that's a huge difference. So for us, like living on low income, we were constantly running scenarios. It's like, all right, what happens if we do XYZ and we read, and I mean read every book I could find on the library shelf on personal finance. I made copious notes. We tried things out. A lot of the systems that we use now, we're born out of those first few years of figuring out how to make it work. So we would make specific goals. We use what we call a pie system. You figure out you plan, so you figure out what your goal is and you create a plan. The plan is six or Seven or eight steps that you're willing to take to reach that goal, let's say in 30 days. We just went through this, in fact.

[Joel]

So it's like micro goals to hit that big goal.

[HopeWare]

Yep, exactly. And then you track what you do on those for 30 days, you implement it. And then we evaluated every 30 days, it's like, what worked, what didn't work. And part of not getting discouraged is figuring, all right, we didn't meet the goal. Did we move the needle at all? We just created a goal to lower our utility bill. And so, spoiler alert, we didn't reach the goal. We lowered it, but not as much as we wanted to. So we're looking at that right now and evaluating, saying, all right, what worked, what didn't work? Do we want to just change the benchmark? Are we not going to be able to reach that goal? Are we going to be able to move the goal? Do you need to lengthen the goal so you're saving less every month to get toward that goal? But figure out what you can do, because sitting around and thinking about what you can't control is just. Honestly, it's not going to help you.

[Joel]

Yeah. Kind of spinning your wheels, waste your time if you spend too much time in that domain. But I see it all the time. And it's true that there are certain things that, yeah, hey, the housing market has become more difficult to enter than it was in 2011. Right. But it's also, there are no time machines that I'm aware of. And so you're. Yeah, that kind of just feeling bad about the way things are. That's not really going to get you where you want to go. So it sounds like two gamification was a part of this. Right. Some trial and error and some. And so how do you feel? Like, did that create, like, excitement for you guys towards reaching those goals? And some stick to itiveness. What. How did you think about the, like, making a game out of some of that, you know, financial progress process?

[HopeWare]

Oh, we actually huge, even to this day on gamification. It's looking at what we did and what we can change and what the new goal is. And I always tell people, look, you set a goal, and when you reach the goal, you have some sort of mini celebration. It does not have to be a celebration that costs you a boatload of money, but it should be something that earmarks the fact that you reach this milestone. You need that, like, you need that emotional release of, yeah, we did it. And then you move on to the next goal. Life is never without goals. That's the other thing too. I mean people set goals and they're like, okay, I reached it, I'm done. Life is one big goal and many.

[Joel]

Along the way, right?

[HopeWare]

Yeah, exactly.

[Joel]

We've got more I want to get to with you Hope, including raising four boys on, you know, a non significant salary and also kind of want to dig into some of the ways you view frugality. So we'll get some questions on on that and more with HopeWare right after this.

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[Joel]

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[Anna]

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[Joel]

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Add some peace of mind to your future with Trust and will go to trustandwill.com howtomoney for 20% off. That's 20% [e-mail] howtomoney all right, we're back for the break. Still talking with Hope where talking about achieving financial freedom without making big bucks. Hope, I'm curious. I was digging around on your YouTube channel and loved so many of the videos and love just the way you and Larry, which by the way I'm sad Larry's not here. Next time we'll have to get him on at some point point. But I had one video where you talked about items that people buy that are totally overrated and I don't know, maybe it's good to dig into some of that stuff like what kind of frugal cuts were you making that other people, at least until you press them, are unwilling to make oh, buying store.

[HopeWare]

Brand, which just boggles my mind. I mean, I'm old enough to remember that years and years ago, store brands, eh, they were kind of. So. So they've made huge strides. And truthfully, it's been shown over and over again that a lot of those store brands are made on the very same equipment, the very same conveyor belt, the very same factory, everything. It's a different label on the box. So try it. Look, 40% is significant savings when you're looking at the difference in general between store brand and name brand. And that's a heck of a savings to look at. One of the things that we did was that I made all of our bread from scratch. Four boys at home. Once a week, we would have baking day. I don't expect everybody to be able to do that, but I was at home with the kids. One of the things. And we talked about priorities as we had kids. One of the things we prioritized was having one of us at home with them. And we homeschooled. So it was important that one of us be there to be the educator, primary educator for the kids. And so we did give up a lot of stuff. And we spent. Instead of spending money, we spent time. So it was the idea of making the bread once a week from scratch. And here's one of the other things. And people will miss this. But hear me carefully. No matter what income you are living on, you need to figure out how you can serve others. Because giving is so important. And if you don't have a lot of money, you can give of your time, you can give of your effort. There was a single lady that lived next door, and she would wait every Tuesday to see. I put all of, you know, a sample of all the baked goods I'd made that day on a tray. And the kids would take it over to her. And her sister told me, she said, you've no idea what that means to her. She won't eat lunch until her little tray arrives, and she sees what she has to pick from. And so finding a way to bless others will keep you motivated, because there's nothing better than reminding yourself there are other folks out there who are also struggling, and doing what you can to help them is just so important at any level of income.

[Joel]

I think that's a great point, especially just from your mindset, because it's really easy to feel sorry for yourself or to feel like you're not making progress as quickly. And then you see other people who are in more difficult circumstances, and then it can hopefully right size your gratitude. On that list of things that you tell people not to buy, you put like, napkins and hair care on there. I think some people might be like, like, why shouldn't I buy napkins? Hope that seems crazy. Like, the most people dunk on the lattes, the avocado toast. But napkins, like, what am I supposed to wipe my hands with?

[HopeWare]

Well, you know, you have old clothing that is worn out and you cut it into squares.

[Joel]

There you go.

[HopeWare]

And you can use that. And we're not saying, you know, and we tell people all the time, we're like, look, we're just throwing spaghetti at the wall. We give you hundreds and hundreds and hundreds of tips. You pick the ones that work for you. If you tell me I'm gonna buy napkins, I'm gonna say, well, you go, if those napkins are your priority, you buy those napkins. But for people who are struggling and feeling like, what can I use other than napkins? Well, you cut things into squares, and then you've got them neatly folded in some sort of a container in your kitchen. You grab one of those and you use it instead of a napkin. Then you can wash it up when you're done and you can use it again.

[Joel]

You're making me think of just how cars and homes in the 1970s are not the same as cars and homes in 2025. Right?

[HopeWare]

Yeah, absolutely.

[Joel]

You compare a Toyota Corolla, my 1989, 1989 Toyota Corolla, my first car, to a modern Toyota Corolla, and they're completely different from, like, size and fanciness and all that kind of stuff. And we just get used to fancier stuff. And I think, yeah, it's probably good for us just from, like, from like an innate human perspective to challenge some of those assumptions. Do I need something that fancy? But also it can help us save money. Right?

[HopeWare]

Right. And we talk some about. About seeking the minimum. So can you buy napkins? Well, of course you can buy napkins, but is your minimum maybe that you're going to use those cloth squares instead? And that's an okay swap for you. We talk about frugal swaps all the time. That's an example of a frugal swap. I'm gonna swap this. I'm cool with using this square of an old T shirt that isn't gonna fit anymore. It's got holes in it. I'm cool with using that to mop up a the spill rather than buying napkins. If that's not cool for you, figure out Other frugal swaps that do work.

[Joel]

You also talk about, and you mentioned earlier that, oh, I've read most of those personal finance books in the library. And you talked about being a perpetual learner. You call yourself a student of saving money. So you're teaching, but you're also a student. How has that mindset been helpful for you?

[HopeWare]

I don't think I ever want to get to a point where I think I've arrived. That's just a terrible place to be in life because nobody knows it all. And there are so many things that, that I can still learn even after over 35 years of frugality. Finding new ways, different ways to do things. You know what the truth is, like, things that are available in 2025 are different than the things that were available as far as frugality is concerned in 1988. And there are new things that come out every day. And I'm like, oh, well, that seems like that's a frugal thing. And so being willing to flex and being willing to change. Oh, my word. People have to be willing to change their behavior to get the desired.

[Joel]

Where do you find when you're talking to people who follow your advice that typically there's like a big leak that they haven't recognized. Where are the number one. Is it the grocery store? Is it overspending on vacations? Where are people who really do need to. They're not making six figures and they really do need to buckle down. Where are those first places that they should look?

[HopeWare]

Look. Okay, two different places. One place is your grocery budget. People don't understand how to go to the grocery store. Shop with a list. Shop. Buy those loss leaders. Loss leaders are those items on the front page of the flyer that they've made an ultra low price and you go in and you plant. Let's just say cauliflower is on sale. It's a loss leader. It's 99 cents for a whole head of cauliflower, which would be huge. That would be a really great deal. I'm gonna go in, I'm gonna buy three of those heads of cauliflower. I'm gonna spend three bucks, and I'm gonna plan most of my meals that week around cauliflower. When you do that, when you're consistently menu planning around items that you got on sale or on clearance or on markdown, your grocery budget is going to drop. You also need to analyze your grocery receipts. What are you spending your Money on? Is 50% of your bill meat? Well, if you're carnivore it probably is. It probably is. If you're keto, it's going to be a lot of meat. But what are those other areas you're spending money on at the grocery store that you could cut back on? For us, we're plant based, so it's easy for me to say cut out meat because we don't need it. You know what I'm saying?

[Joel]

But I'm just covering my ears and saying, la, la, la, la la, when you say that. Because I don't want to hear it.

[HopeWare]

That's okay. Because there are other areas that you're dropping money on at the grocery store that you could cut back on it. It's all figuring out where those leaks are. But the other thing that people need to look at is they need to look at impulse spending. Look, people spend money because they get depressed because they don't have enough money. So they spend more money because they're depressed about not having enough money. Do you see what I'm saying? It's a weird vicious circle. And when you stop, and this is one of the things we tell people, you need to stop and analyze that emotion. People are afraid of their emotions surrounding money. They're afraid to acknowledge. I feel powerless, I feel stuck.

[Joel]

And because of that, the emotion is driving purchasing decisions and driving their financial life into a ditch continually.

[HopeWare]

Absolutely. But when they take a minute and they name it, just sit and take a deep breath, put your feet on the floor so you're grounded and say, what am I feeling right now? Why am I wanting to hit that big red buy button? Because clearly I don't need a thousand napkins. Or maybe you do, but you know what I'm saying? What is it that's in your cart that you're like, I'm going to push that button. I'm going to push it now because I am feeling what when you name it, it makes it powerless and you're able to say, all right, what can I do? Instead of I'm feeling sad or I'm feeling deprived, what can I do instead that's going to fill that emotional void for me without spending money.

[Joel]

Yeah. So maybe it's a good idea to have like a list of a few activities where it's like, I'm feeling this way, I'm going for a walk, I'm feeling this way, I'm going to call my friend. Right. Have maybe a couple things that you can do instead that are also going to feel soothing instead of doing the thing that you've been doing for a Long time. That feels soothing. But my goodness, it's ended you. It's put you in a bad. A bad place. I'm curious about the loss leaders though, going back to that. When you walk into the grocery store, there's a reason the loss leaders exist. Right. So they're hoping you're going to come in for the cauliflower and then stick around for the bags of chips that cost $5 or something like that. So how do you kind of get around that conundrum where the grocery stores are? They want to get you through those middle aisles of all the prepackaged foods.

[HopeWare]

Yeah. And part of it is understanding marketing principles. So I have a degree in radio and television, but in getting that degree, I took a marketing class. And in that class, the Prof. Was amazing. He went through all of these ways that stores get you to spend money. And it's almost 40 years and I still use those same principles because the marketing tactics are exactly the same. So they're gonna put stuff next to that cauliflower that unlike the physics class.

[Joel]

Which I haven't used since, you know.

[HopeWare]

Yes, right. That's so true. And so they're gonna put items next to that cauliflower that kind of go with cauliflower. But they're full price. It's called cross selling. They do it all the time. And you're gonna look at that and they're gonna convince you. Let's see, what would they put with cauliflower? I don't know. Hot sauce. Because you're gonna make buffalo wings or something out of the cauliflower. So they're gonna put some other things that go with it to convince you this is what you wanna make with your cauliflower. But you're paying full price for everything that's sitting next to that cauliflower. The only thing on sale on that display is the cauliflower. So recognizing what they are doing to try to get you to spend money and then figuring out your tactics to avoid it.

[Joel]

So are you looking at the ads ahead of time and you're saying, here's what's on sale. You're making a list based on the flyers before you actually go into the store. And then. And you're sticking to it or what would cause you hope to not stick to your list and buy something that wasn't on it.

[HopeWare]

The only time I really don't stick to the list is if I find something that's on markdown. But here's how I deal with that. This is something that we've done for years. And it works super duper well to be able to afford to buy something you find on the clearance shelf or something in the markdown bin that you're like, oh my gosh, this is a fantastic deal. But if I buy five of these, it's gonna blow my grocery budget out. We do something called the 1/5 method. We take our ENT grocery budget for the month, we divide it into fifths, 1/5 of that. So if you have a $500 grocery budget, 1/5 is 100 bucks, that $100 is the stock up money for the whole month. So if we find a fantastic deal, we can spend out of that hundred dollar pool of cash the other 4/5, which would be $400 in a $500 grocery budget that's divided into fourths. So that, that's your weekly grocery budget then. And you can stock up and not blow your grocery budget smithereens or wind up with 20 bucks for the last 10 days of the month.

[Joel]

I like that it gives you a little bit of that flexibility to pounce because it's really tough to say that's such a good deal. And I would buy, in my case, because I'm a meat eater, I would buy the pork butt that's on sale for $1.50 a pound. But I don't know, it's not on the list. But it would bum me out because I'm like, that's a great deal. It's going to be like $3 a pound next week. So yeah, I like that you offer people a little bit of that flexibility or you create some flexibility in your grocery budget that way. Let's talk about kids. You've got four, not just children, but boys who I've only got one boy and two girls. And he's young, so I'm like, not sure. At some point I think he's going to eat me out of house and home. But we're not quite there yet. What did their childhood look like? And were they lusting after the Nikes or brand name T shirts or like. I just remember when I was a kid and those were the things that I wanted, I pestered my parents for. I still remember JNCO jeans, I'm gonna date myself and Tommy Hilfiger T shirts. It's amazing that those were even popular. But that when you look back, Style man. But yeah, what was that like? And being an incredibly intentional, frugal household, but having boys who wanted to fit in and be cool.

[HopeWare]

Well, one of the things we did was we never tell them no, we can't afford this. That's like you just what we did when we said, well, let's put this on the list. There was a list of things that we wanted. There's always a want list. And then you start doing market research and figuring out, does that ever go on sale, when does it go on sale? What's the secondhand market like for this item? Can I get it secondhand and still be happy with it? And we would explain to them, like, there's a time frame. You have a list of wants, but you have to have delayed gratification in those wants. And it's okay to say, I want the Tommy Hilfiger, well, I want that clothing. But you might have to bide your time and wait until that shop has a sale at say 30 or 50% off. Or you might have to buy that long sleeve shirt, buy it off season, because then when all the spring and summer stuff is coming in, they're going to be selling that long sleeve shirt for 60, 70% off because they want it off their shelves. It's all timing and it's all figuring out how to get what you want at a price you're willing to pay.

[Joel]

Was it ever for your boys? Was there the opportunity to earn money so they could save towards a goal? If you're like, hey, that thing you want to purchase was pretty expensive. And it's not that we can't afford it, but that's not a priority right now. And if you really want that, that was one of the things my parents said was like, we'll pay this much for your shoes. If you want the fancy Scottie Pippen shoes, which is what I wanted, you have to find a way. Whether it's like birthday money, stuff like that, you've got to bring a bunch to the T, or you can live within the budget that we've set. Like, were you having those kind of conversations?

[HopeWare]

Oh, absolutely. So one of the things we did with our kids is when they turned 13, between the ages of 13 and 16, we gave them allowance from age 5 to when they turned 13. And we had them buy items they wanted out of that allowance. One of the things we did was they would get five bucks and want to go to Dollar Tree and buy five really inexpensive plastic toys that were going to break in like five minutes. And we never stopped it. Them, we said, you know what? And we would tell them we feel like that's not, you know, you want to save up till you get 10 or $15 and get the quality item. But if they wanted to spend their $5, they could do it however they wanted to. But when that item broke, we did not replace it. We told them how sad we were for them that what they bought for their $5 broke. And let's figure out a new goal now to save toward the $15 item that maybe is going to last a little longer. They learned so much from that at the age of six or seven that they wouldn't have learned had we gone out and spent the five bucks which we could have afforded to replace that small item from Dollar Tree. But the other thing we did was when they turned 13, we told them, we said, we're not gonna pay you allowance anymore. Instead we're gonna invest in your goals and your hopes and your dreams. You give us a list of items that you are saving for. You find a way to earn money from someone besides us for half of the cost of that item and we're gonna kick in the other half.

[Joel]

Oh, that's be gonna cool.

[HopeWare]

And we bought it. It cost us so much more than that allowance did. But it was worth every penny because they would start asking around for friends, do you need your lawn mowed? Do you need, you know, babysitting, all kinds of pet sitting. They did all kinds of stuff to earn money. And as they started accruing money, we would say, well, let's do some market research, let's figure out what that item is, figure out exactly what make, what model you want, how much it's going to cost, can you find it on the used market. And so it was like a little mini course in how to figure out what you want to purchase and be happy when you get done that you got what you wanted. But they had to give us the list ahead of time because we had to save up our half. We had a couple of boys that didn't take advantage of it and oh boy, we had a couple of boys that they'd give us a list of six things because they knew when they turned 16, the deal was off because at 16 they got a part time job and they needed to buy their own things. And my husband was like, I don't know, I don't think he's going to save for all six of these things. And I said I think we ought to plan for it. And I was right.

[Joel]

Well, that's interesting how different personalities, right, that some kids are like go getters. My oldest child is, she would totally take full advantage of that and she would go get some babysitting gigs. My middle child would walk into the Clouds like she's just not as interested and it just doesn't quite have the same understanding of my so they kind of come pre made a little differently. So I was going to say your boys, but really they're grown at this point. You had Daniel on your channel recently to talk about whether or not he follows the advice that you have given over many, many years. So what's their relationship like? And I know it's going to be different because they're different individuals, but what's their relationship like with money?

[HopeWare]

It's so interesting to us because all four of them are frugal in their own way, but I see all of them prioritize different things. For my oldest son and his wife, it's travel, man. They want experiences, so they set more of their income aside for just being able to go out and do things than any of the other three combined. And that's okay because that's their priority. But they're still hitting financial goals. They're the ones that are looking for a house. So they're, they've cut back just a little bit on experiences right now. But I've seen all four of them figure out how to balance what they want with what they need with their income level. And it's been really fun and really gratifying to watch them as grown adults.

[Joel]

That's cool. I can tell you guys have such a great family relationship and that they trust you and that they've listened to you throughout the years and they have their own take. But they're also, they didn't abandon the principles that you taught. So you should be proud of that. All right, we've got a few more questions I want to get to Hope with you, including, well, what about building wealth as a frugal person? How important is that? So we'll get to that and then some random questions, too. You guys are E bike riders, which I'm a fan of. So we'll get to that and more in just a second with Hope.

[Anna]

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[Anna]

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[Joel]

All right, we're back. Still talking with HopeWare, talking about achieving financial freedom without making a ton of money. Hope one of the things that we haven't talked about that I'm really, really, really curious to hear your take on is building wealth. Because those are different sides of the coin right there is you guys are incredible at being frugal Very good savers. What's your take on building wealth and investing for the future? And how do you prioritize that in your life?

[HopeWare]

Okay, first, start young. This is a mistake that we honestly made, and we're really open about this on our YouTube channel, is the fact that we really did not start investing, investing until Larry was in his mid-40s. And that was a huge mistake. We should have prioritized that when we were both in our 20s and 30s, rather than waiting that long. Here's what happens when you're struggling to save money and you do have a low income. You look at everything. Let's say you look at things like a pie chart, right? So so much is going for food, so much is going for clothing, shelter, transportation, all that. And you start looking at those slivers that are left over, and you think, oh, my Lord, that's a small sliver left over for investing for the future, for saving for future goals. And it can be really debilitating. So one of the things that I did was I created a spreadsheet which was prioritized because everything in my life is prioritized. And it listed the most important things. But the other thing was it assigned a time value to it. How many years out are we looking for this goal and for that goal and the other goal. And it became a lot easier for me to look at that sliver that was left over and. And assign it to those specific goals, realizing that we're looking some of the goals, like retirement. When I first figured out what Larry needed for retirement, I thought I was gonna pass out. And I said, babe, I think we're gonna work for, I don't know, forever. Well, we didn't. He retired two years ago. So, you know, we managed to reach that goal, but it was overwhelming. And when a goal is overwhelming, you have to break it down to smaller increments. You have to figure out, what am I looking at on a yearly basis, a monthly basis, a weekly basis. When you do that math, we're so big on that. Do the math. Do the math. Do the math.

[Joel]

Well, not having a home or a car payment should help a lot. Like, you're going to have lower expenses in retirement. So I think sometimes people. You're right. Get started early. But sometimes people also overestimate. We've seen the commercials where it's like, you need $2.4 million in your retirement accounts in order to have a decent living. And I think a lot of people, like, have bought into that and that, yeah, it might be Nice, but you don't need it, you know?

[HopeWare]

And I think. And you mentioned debt. That was one thing. After we paid those two cars off, we avoided debt like the plague. Now, we did take out a mortgage on our first house, which we paid for in five years. We were both working, we made double payments, and we got that thing out of there because we knew moving forward, the most important asset we had was our ability to live lean because we didn't owe anybody any money.

[Joel]

Yeah, no, that's huge. I think the casual relationship with debt that people have, I'll hear people go, yeah, I got a couple grand in credit card debt. I'm doing better than everybody else because look at that, it's not much. And I'm like, no. 0 is always the answer. E bikes.

[HopeWare]

Yes.

[Joel]

I'm a huge E bike rider. It's sitting right outside my office right now. I took my son to school on it this morning. Y' all ride, right? And Larry, he got in an accident. Is he okay? And how big. Think of how important are E bikes, do you think, to saving money?

[HopeWare]

Oh, gosh, he has. Well, first when I met him, he was a long distance bike rider, so he would ride 50, 60 miles at a stretch. He has always loved bike riding. So as he got older, it was a little more difficult to pedal and things like that. So he got an E bike and he rode it for thousands. In fact, he still does. He rides his E bike every single day that he can. But yeah, so he had an accident a couple of years ago on his E bike. It was a week before our oldest son's wedding. So that was an interesting experience. He was in the hospital for five days. And the kids kept saying, should we move the date back? And I said, no, your father's gonna be there. And so he was there. He walked down the aisle with a cane because he refused to use a walker. He was like, I'm using a cane. It looks. I'm like, you're right, babe. That looks much less conspicuous than a walker. And, yeah, so he had a traumatic brain injury, but he's all healed now and back on the bike. And it's just. It's super important to him. He used to ride it back and forth when he worked. He worked downtown, which was seven and a half miles each direction from our house. He would ride it back and forth to work all the time in good weather.

[Joel]

Yeah, almost exactly. Was my bike commute for a long time. And it was amazing. It did. Not only did it save me money, but it made me really Happy and. And there's a lot to be said for that. My wife would know if I drove the car that day because I'd come home and I just wasn't as joyful, you know, there wasn't as much big of a smile on my face because there's something about the bike ride to and from that just, like, sparks joy in my life. And, yeah, I would love to see more people get on that. I think, especially if you live and work fairly close together and you can get saddlebags on your bike, go grocery shopping with your bike, that kind of stuff.

[HopeWare]

Stuff.

[Joel]

Take your kids to school on the bike. That really adds up in saving miles and wear and tear on your car. But for some people, it can even mean potentially ditching a car, which is huge savings. Did you guys ever have, like, one car family or anything like that?

[HopeWare]

We did. When our oldest son was born, we realized we could not afford two cars, and we went down to one car for about. I don't think it was three or four years. By the time we bought a second car, we had two kids, and we're like eight. I feel like maybe we need a second car now and then at that point, we had saved up the money and we could afford to buy a second car.

[Joel]

Even doing it for just a limited time, like two, three years, the amount of money you can save on insurance, and then, like, yeah, you can. You can buy another car down the road. That's. That's what we did. We had one car for a while, then added a second one because we needed one at that point in time. But avoiding it for a little while can kind of juice your ability to fund other financial goals. All right, I'm curious, too, about your creation of YouTube videos. And you and Larry, like, you've been doing it for how long now? How big is this operation gotten? Because it sure seems like you got a lot of subscribers. You're reaching a lot of people.

[HopeWare]

So we've been doing YouTube regularly for about five years. And remember, I worked in radio, Larry worked in television. So YouTube was a good fit for us. We knew that right off the bat. What we didn't know is how many people would be really interested in ways to save money, because the channel grew, like, exponentially the minute we started putting videos up. We have 216,000 subscribers.

[Joel]

Amazing.

[HopeWare]

And we get upwards of 400, 450,000 views a month. And it's been fun. That's the thing. I mean, we talked about doing something that just sparks joy for you. For us, this is just Fun to share with folks a little piece of life with us and talk about how you can spend less and save more and reach your great big financial goals. We say grab those great big financial goals with both hands and refuse to let go. Because that's what we did. We were like, if somebody had said, you can't do that in your income, which some people did. We were like, really? Watch us, because we were a team and we're like, so we're formidable together. We're gonna do this thing. And we refused to take no for an answer. And when we reached a roadblock, we were like, all right, we're either gonna go through it, we're gonna go around it, but things is going to happen.

[Joel]

Okay, Hope, this has been such a fun conversation. I've really, really enjoyed it. Where can how to money listeners go to find out more about you and what you're up to?

[HopeWare]

All right, you can find me at my website, underthemedian.com. oh, we named it that because we raised the kids debt free on an income which is consistently under the US national median income. That's where under the median comes from. So underthemedian.com and we're on YouTube at under the median.

[Joel]

Wonderful, Hope. Thank you so much for your time. I really enjoyed this.

[HopeWare]

Thanks, Anna. Bless.

[Joel]

Okay, what's not to like or really love about Hope? What an inspiring person. And her content that she creates with her husband Larry is totally worth checking out. Over at YouTube. We'll put links to her channel in the show Notes. I think I should offer a big takeaway. I've got two things I really feel compelled to share after speaking with Hope today, and I think just the fact that she's proving something that most people would say is impossible, that it's possible to live well on less than $40,000 to pay off a home in five years, to buy the next home with cash, to pay for cars with cash. I mean, all that kind of stuff, people would say, no way, not possible. And she's like, I'm just going to do it. And then, like, like, okay, tell me it can't be done once I've done it. And one of the things she said at the beginning was that so many people feel a lack of agency, like a lack of the fact that they're kind of in control of their own story. And that leads to a lot of the struggles they encounter because it's really easy to point fingers and it's really easy to feel like you're riding not in the driver's seat, but in the passenger seat of your own life. And so once there's like a mindset shift that needs to happen, happen in order to make this possible. And if you think it can't be done, it's much easier for it to not actually happen. But if you believe that it can and you're working actively towards that end goal, you can do it. I think the other thing that she said that really resonated with me was when she talked about creative substitution. And I think that really does prevent a deprivation mindset because, yes, like that perpetual push toward frugality, it can feel like a long slog and it can start to feel like I'm not living the life of my dreams because, gosh, I'm cutting back in this area, in this area, in this area. And if you can do some creative substitution, not just at the grocery store, but when it comes to the activities you participate in, like on date night last night my wife and I went for a six mile walk, like a hike together. It was like one of the best. We thoroughly enjoyed it. It was lovely outside. What is that? That you can do a creative substitution where it's like, well, normally we go to our favorite restaurant, get nice cocktails and a great meal and that's like fine and dandy and lovely on occasion. But if you really want to make the progress that you want to see in your financial goals, especially if you're making less money, I think it is going to take some creative substitution and that is going to allow you to not feel as down about the things that you're giving up because you're doing something else. Instead of just giving up, instead of just cutting, you're finding something else to replace it with. That costs less money, but it still brings joy. And don't forget to write those goals down. I think that's really important. Something dreamed up in your head, like, yeah, we could do that versus something that's actually written down and spoken out loud. It can make a big difference in your ability to achieve it. So big. Thanks to Hope for joining me today. I hope you enjoyed this conversation and hope to see you back here on Friday for a nice little Friday flight episode with me and Matt. But that's going to do it for this one. Until next time, best friend. Out.

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