Financial Pessimism Will Eat You Alive (Bestie Ep) #1008

Summary

Podcast Summary: How to Money – "Financial Pessimism Will Eat You Alive (Bestie Ep) #1008"

Introduction

In episode #1008 of How to Money, co-hosts Joel and Matt delve into the pervasive issue of financial pessimism and its detrimental effects on individuals' financial health and overall well-being. Released on July 11, 2025, this episode emphasizes the necessity of fostering financial optimism to thrive in today’s challenging economic landscape.

Understanding Financial Pessimism

Joel and Matt open the discussion by highlighting the overwhelming tide of pessimism that seems to pervade American society. Matt remarks, “There is a malaise of pessimism just keeping folks from taking the most basic money moves that could benefit their future” (03:20). They argue that this pervasive negativity not only affects personal feelings and life choices but directly impacts financial decisions and outcomes.

Pessimism vs. Optimism in Financial Behavior

The hosts explore the contrasting financial behaviors of pessimists and optimists. They reference a quote from financial expert Morgan Housel: “Save like a pessimist, but invest like an optimist” (22:22). Joel explains that while saving is prudent to prepare for unforeseen circumstances, investing with optimism is essential for long-term wealth growth. Surprisingly, they reveal that optimists are more likely to have emergency funds and invest consistently, even outperforming pessimists in financial stability.

Impact of Media and Society on Pessimism

Joel and Matt discuss how modern media consumption contributes to societal pessimism. They note that the constant influx of negative news and the nature of social media platforms amplify fears and insecurities. “The 24/7 news cycle just gives us something to be upset about no matter what” (10:34), Joel observes. This relentless exposure hinders people's ability to maintain a positive outlook, further entrenching financial pessimism.

The Benefits of Optimism

Optimism is portrayed as a catalyst for financial success and personal fulfillment. The duo cites statistics showing that 69% of Americans hold negative views about the economy, a sentiment that can discourage proactive financial behavior. Conversely, optimists tend to save more, invest wisely, and experience less financial stress. Joel emphasizes, “Optimism is the greater need, especially considering what we're dealing with as a culture” (35:56).

Tips to Increase Optimism

Joel and Matt offer practical strategies to cultivate optimism, which in turn can enhance financial health:

1. Exercise and Physical Health: Matt highlights research indicating that regular physical activity boosts optimism and reduces financial stress. “Folks who participate in vigorous exercise tend to be significantly more optimistic” (44:47).

2. Social Connections: Building and maintaining relationships is crucial. Joel shares their personal practice of discussing daily "roses, buds, and thorns" with their children to foster gratitude and positive thinking (52:50).

3. Reducing Media Consumption: Limiting exposure to negative news and social media can prevent the spiral into pessimism. Matt advises, “Delete apps from your phone if you find yourself doom scrolling” (49:43).

4. Visualization and Gratitude: Imagining a positive future and reflecting on past achievements can reinforce an optimistic mindset. “Visualizing future you with no credit card debt can significantly change your life” (51:05).

Notable Quotes

• “It’s gonna make a difference when it comes to your money, too.” – Joel (03:20)
• “Save like a pessimist, but invest like an optimist.” – Morgan Housel (22:22)
• “Nearly two-thirds of optimists have started an emergency fund, less than half of pessimists have one.” – Matt (24:27)
• “Optimism fuels your career, it fuels your earning potential.” – Matt (37:09)
• “Optimism is a virtuous cycle; making progress breeds more progress.” – Joel (57:37)

Conclusion

Joel and Matt conclude the episode by reinforcing the importance of balancing realism with optimism. While acknowledging that some pessimism is necessary for prudent financial planning, they advocate for a predominantly optimistic approach to achieve financial stability and personal happiness. By adopting the strategies discussed—such as regular exercise, fostering social connections, limiting negative media exposure, and practicing gratitude listeners can combat financial pessimism and pave the way for a more prosperous future.

Takeaways

• Balance Pessimism and Optimism: Use optimism to drive investments and long-term financial goals while maintaining a realistic approach to saving and preparing for emergencies.

• Cultivate Positive Habits: Regular physical activity, strong social connections, and mindful media consumption can significantly enhance optimism and reduce financial stress.

• Practical Financial Strategies: Establishing and maintaining emergency funds, investing consistently, and visualizing financial goals are key to overcoming the barriers posed by financial pessimism.

Additional Resources

For more insights and tips on fostering financial optimism, listeners are encouraged to subscribe to the How to Money newsletter, available every Tuesday morning at howtomoney.com.

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This summary is based on the transcript of episode #1008 of How to Money, hosted by Joel and Matt, available at howtomoney.com.

Transcript

[Matt]

This is an iHeart podcast.

[Joel]

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Hey, it's Joel and Matt from how to Money. Matt, you and I, we do a decent amount of traveling. So what's a place that you think lived up to the hype?

[Matt]

That one is tough, but immediately what comes to mind is Scotland. The scenery in particular was insane. I'm specifically thinking about when we went and hiked Old Man's Store.

[Joel]

Oh yeah.

[Matt]

Felt like we were on a completely different planet. It was otherworldly.

[Joel]

Sure was. Yeah. Yeah. And our Airbnb on the Isle of Skye, man, it looked straight out this field into the sea. Total tranquility. And the castle gardens that we saw. And it felt straight out of a fairy tale.

[Matt]

It's true. Yeah. That trip showed us how big a difference the right place makes. And if you've got travel plans, don't let your place sit empty. Airbnb's co host feature makes it easy to earn a little cash while someone else manages the day to day.

[Joel]

That's right. Find a co [e-mail] host.

[Matt]

Run a business and not thinking about podcasting.

[Joel]

Think again.

[Matt]

More Americans listen to podcasts than ad.

[Joel]

Supported streaming music from Spotify and Pandora. And as the number one one podcaster, iHeart's twice as large as the next two combined. Learn how podcasting can help your business. Call 844-844-IHeart. Welcome to how to Money. I'm Joel.

[Matt]

I'm Matt.

[Joel]

And today we're talking about why financial pessimism will eat you.

[Matt]

So we've talked about Fear Factor and some of those different shows here on the podcast before. Joel, have you ever eaten anything alive? I guess, like, the quintessential example I'm thinking of is like, swallowing a goldfish at some trashy bar.

[Joel]

Never did it.

[Matt]

That kind of thing. Or maybe I'm thinking of, like, the worm in the bottom of a, like, tequila shot or something like that.

[Joel]

No, never done. Never done any of that stuff.

[Matt]

Can't say that I have.

[Joel]

Maybe I haven't lived an adventurous life. Maybe that's what that.

[Matt]

I think there's a lot more to an adventurous life than eating things that are. Or swallowing that are still alive. But we are going to talk about financial pessimism. Why we think that more folks need a little injection of financial optimism, sort of like a. Like a cortisone shot to get you through the game.

[Joel]

And it really does. Like, it's. It's shockingly makes a massive difference. And I think, you know, what we want to talk about is an overwhelming tide of pessimism that it feels like our country has experienced, is continuing to experience and kind of push back on that, because it's going to make a difference. Not just, like, in how you feel and how you move through life, but it's gonna make a difference when it comes to your money, too.

[Matt]

It's gonna impact your wallet as well. Yeah. Real quick, before we move on to the show, before we get to the beer that we're gonna enjoy during this episode, we were just talking, and I don't know how we stumbled upon this, but this is the kind of thing we do. We're talking about different financial products and whatnot. But we got to thinking about Venmo Cash app, the different financial apps on your phone, and we're like, wait a minute, are those apps FDIC insured? Because more and more folks, they're using those accounts as if they were checking accounts. And we quickly looked it up, and guess what? They are not FDIC insured. So just a quick tip, do not store excess money within those apps. Preferably immediately deposit that money into your account or withdraw it. Initiate that withdrawal from the account. That way you don't have that money just sitting there.

[Joel]

I don't think Venmo has the ability or lets you have the ability to move funds right when you get them without manually doing it. Whereas Cash App, I have, like, a little toggle in the back. Really? And I can literally.

[Matt]

Is there an automatic sweep?

[Joel]

There's an automatic sweep.

[Matt]

Oh, shut up. I didn't know that.

[Joel]

So I have used that just to prevent any money from sitting there.

[Matt]

In the Cash App, you want to get that money out. You want to get that money into your high yield savings account. You're earning that real interest.

[Joel]

That's right.

[Matt]

Which we can say these days because banks are paying a real interest rate.

[Joel]

Well, and that's where your money is protected, too, because it's just not protected in these accounts. One from scammers. There's. I get all sorts of random requests. Like, once a month, it seems like somebody's stranded at the grocery store.

[Matt]

Send 100 bucks Jimmy Two Shoes.

[Joel]

Just requesting, like $500. I'm like, what is. Who is this person? And that kind of stuff happens all the time.

[Matt]

You don't want to just out of the goodness of your heart, donate to.

[Joel]

I think about it sometimes, Jimmy two Shoes, and I think I like to give in different ways, but. And maybe Jimmy two Shoes needs another pair. I don't know. But, like, this is the kind of thing.

[Matt]

Tomorrow he'll be Jimmy three Shoes.

[Joel]

This is the kind of thing most people don't think about, though, is like, is my money in these apps safe? And the truth is that we've never.

[Matt]

Talked about that on the show before.

[Joel]

Venmo and Cash App have not been great. When somebody does get scammed about helping them get their money back. And at the same time, since the money isn't FDIC insured and it's not earning anything, if they were to go.

[Matt]

Under, yeah, you out that money.

[Joel]

Use those apps to facilitate transactions, to facilitate paying a friend or family member for something, but don't use it as a place to store money. Make sure you're moving the money out and that you're not keeping a balance, basically.

[Matt]

I will say, though, that if there are any. If you have a check card, basically, if you have an account that's associated with either Venmo or Cash App. So like Cash App, they have like the Cash Card, and that is an FDIC insured bank that has partnered with Cash App. And so you might be thinking, oh, no, no, no. I definitely have seen FDIC insured before. Well, that's money that is specifically insured via that bank. But for, I think the vast majority of folks out there who are just using the App. They haven't gone down the rabbit trail of expanding the cash app offerings or the Venmo offerings. Then your money is not FDIC insured. Yeah, just keep, keep that in mind.

[Joel]

Word of the wise, for sure. All right, Matt, let's mention the beer we're having on this episode. This is called Stress Dissolver. Let's hope it works its magic by Common Space Brewing. I feel better already.

[Matt]

Yeah, I feel so relaxed.

[Joel]

And this friend of the show, 5am Joel, he donated these beers. This is a California brewery to us. So big thanks to our buddy out of Hawthorne, California. It's a BlackBerry sour beer, so I think he picked it up at Trader Joe's out there.

[Matt]

What?

[Joel]

They've got good beers at Trader Joe's?

[Matt]

I forget. Yeah, I remember buying scotch at a Trader Joe's when Kate and I last time her and I went out to Yosemite. We landed. I forget exactly what city we were in, but walked in there, I saw some off label scotch and I thought to myself, that's something I want to enjoy at the end of a long day hiking.

[Joel]

Yeah.

[Matt]

But yeah, very cool. Thank you, Joel, for donating this one to the show.

[Joel]

And we can't get liquor in grocery stores here in Georgia, but they do it in California. It's legal there, so. But Matt, let's get onto the subject at hand. Let's talk about financial pessimism and how it can mess people up. And for some reason, this topic made me think of ice baths. They're so hot right now. Oh, yeah, not really hot, but they're, you know, people like them bad humor. But I've never done one. Speaking of, like, things we haven't done, haven't eaten a live animal and I haven't taken. Done one of these ice baths. I'm kind of scared. But, you know, there are lots of folks purposely jumping in freezing pools of water every day. There's some guy at your gym. Didn't you say he's spending $20 a day?

[Matt]

Yeah, he claims $20. He does. Well, he does two ice baths every day, evidently, so. And you know, they're supposed beneficial reasons to doing it. Like it's supposed to help with inflammation with muscle recovery. If you're really a fitness fanatic, if you want to really get nerdy about it, it activates brown fat. I learned this listening to.

[Joel]

I don't even know what that is.

[Matt]

Huberman Lab.

[Joel]

Of course you did.

[Matt]

It's like the good, good kind of fat. Okay. It activates it at least a better higher metabolic health.

[Joel]

Okay. I've heard it elevates your mood, stuff like that, which is, which is cool. 20 bucks a day on ice sounds extreme.

[Matt]

That's insane.

[Joel]

But, and I think a lot, interestingly enough, I don't know about our listeners, but if someone threw me in a freezing cold pool of water, I'd be pissed. Like, I would not be happy. I'd be like, what are you doing? But some people choose to do this very thing on purpose. And I think so much of why has to do with the person's outlook, right? Because like you said, the ice bath is really, is largely done for health benefits. But most of us, including myself, prefer warm showers, hot showers, because we're not necessarily thinking about the health benefits. We're thinking about how we can be most comfortable. And so I think a simple shift of perspective can drastically change how it is that we view an activity and whether or not we want to participate or not. And similarly, when you approach the world from a pessimistic point of view, it has a negative impact on how we do so many things, including how we handle our money.

[Matt]

That's true. Yeah. So actually just last night, dude, I hopped in the shower and I assumed that one of my girls was getting out of her shower at right about the same time, but no, she kept that hot water running the entire time. She took like a 20, 25 minute shower. Meaning that they're not even teenagers yet.

[Joel]

But oh my gosh, but they're already there.

[Matt]

Might have to install a second water heater by the time I've got four teenagers all showering. But what this means though, is I got to rinse off in some frigid water. Understandably, I was annoyed, but if I had had a different perspective, I could have even embraced the cold. It would have been something I was looking forward to. It's like I'm not even paying $20 in order to take this cold shower. I simply needed a different point of view. And instead of looking at history and taking an encouraging note of optimism from our past, it seems that a, like a malaise of pessimism is just keeping folks from taking the most basic money moves that could benefit their future. And you know, it's not that they don't know what it is that they should be doing, right? Like, it is not necessarily a math problem. Instead, it's an outlook problem. Too much pessimism is going to throw sand into the gears. It's going to inhibit your financial progress. And so if you feel like defeat is imminent, if you don't believe that you can make progress. Well, you're going to be bound to lose. And hopefully this episode can change your perspective.

[Joel]

Yeah, you got to have that kind of small but mighty perspective. And it's just so easy to get lost in a cycle of pessimism. I think, especially today. And as a nation, like you said, Matt, we're in this malaise of pessimism. I like the way you put it. It seems like we're more pessimistic now than ever before. And I think stats actually bear that out. New statistics revealed that a record 69% of Americans hold negative views about the current and future state of the economy. So they say, hey, you know what? It sucks now. It's going to suck for forever. Like that is basically what people are saying. And that's seven out of 10 people who basically have that take. And let's be honest, I mean, bad stuff happens with astonishing regularity. So we're not here to be head in the sand, sort of believe everything's going to be great. The truth is, if you want to bathe in the sadness, it's never been easier because the 247 news cycle just gives us something to be upset about no matter what. And it makes me think of the recent Wall Street Journal poll, Matt, which found that only 21% of Americans think that their kids are going to be better off than they. Than they are. And again, that's more pessimism. That's 8 out of 10 people saying, my kids don't have a shot at better life than I've got. Yet we're living in the greatest age of abundance the world has ever known. The progress we've made in the past 200 years and 20 years specifically is astounding. Yet we managed to tell ourselves this story, this doom and gloom sort of despair story with those clear signs of progr all around us. It makes me think, and I know I probably shouldn't reference him because he kind of got canceled or whatever, but Louis ck do you remember his airplane bit? He told it on like a late night show or something. And it was just the best thing.

[Matt]

Ever where the guys were complaining about.

[Joel]

WI fi, about the WI fi not working. And this is like 10 years ago when that was still like a novel concept that you have, that you could actually get Internet on an airplane. And he's like, we're in a metal tube hurtling through the sky. Like, it's kind of incredible. And so it's amazing. You can either be the person on the airplane being like, why doesn't the wifi work. This sucks. Or you can be like, I'm in a modern, modern marvel. It's amazing how safe airplanes are, how they fly me at 500, hurdle me through the air at 500 miles an hour to my destination, and I can go places I never could have gone before for cheaper than ever before. So much of how you view that, that trip, that experience depends on your outlook.

[Matt]

Is that how fast airplanes go, by the way?

[Joel]

I think they're like 450. Am I wrong?

[Matt]

As soon as you said that, I was like, I have no idea how fast airplanes go.

[Joel]

I think it's like 400, 500 miles an hour.

[Matt]

What's machine like Mach 1? What is, is that a thousand?

[Joel]

I don't know, I'm not sure.

[Matt]

Okay, but. Okay, so you mentioned that I'm gonna say a thousand. You're right, I think it's a thousand. Yeah, I said 2,000 because I'm thinking of £2,000 within a ton.

[Joel]

What is he, what did you reach in the latest topic like Mach 9 or something? Then he passes out.

[Matt]

Yeah, I don't, I don't know. But, but I wanted to mention you brought up that Wall Street Journal poll, but there were some other elements in that poll that revealed that basically that we value money more highly than other values that were more traditionally held in high esteem. I'm talking about values like our community, children or religion as well. But not only are our priorities out of whack, but honestly we think that pessimism, it's partly driving it, but it's also being exacerbated by that same set of beliefs. It's almost as if our society wide pessimism is swirling out of control and then it's creating more of the same. It's like a doom loop. It's a doom. It's reinforcing itself. It's like a turbochargedness of pessimism. So it kind of makes me think like what came first, the chicken or the egg?

[Joel]

Right.

[Matt]

Because you could make a pretty good argument that even the deprioritization of values like your family or community and religion, that these are actually the sources perhaps of the heightened levels of pessimism that we've seen.

[Joel]

Yeah. It makes me think of our recent conversation with Simo Stolzoff and how he talked about that's why we put so much value in our careers. Now we've lost basically a sense of value and meaning in some of these other places where we traditionally derive them.

[Matt]

Absolutely.

[Joel]

So the career is the end all, be all and so not only is it bringing home the bacon, and. But it also informs our self worth. And that is not a healthy place to be in when most of your feelings of self worth come from your job. And then when you skip out on community and family, it's no surprise that you end up with higher levels of loneliness, too, because back in 2018, 22% of all adults said that they always or often feel lonely or isolated. That was before COVID That was in 2018. Right. That's crazy. So my guess is those numbers have gotten worse, maybe doubled. I don't know. This is just a guess, but a lack of social cohesion is directly responsible for some of the downer vibes that we might be feeling. And funnily enough, new stats have just come out about the Americans who consider themselves among the happiest. They literally, in response to a survey, not only do they check the happy checkbox, they say, no, no, no, I am very happy. And it turns out that it has dropped.

[Matt]

But there still is a certain.

[Joel]

There's this contingent of folks, and there have been articles written about, like, what can we learn from these people who. Who are very happy? Well, a lot of them say that a strong marriage, being religious, a solid fitness regimen are the main reasons why. And a lot of these folks were actually older adults, interestingly enough. But that was just kind of fascinating to me, like, that these things that we're getting away from as a culture that have traditionally brought happiness and have made us look on the bright side, I think a little more frequently, the happiest people still retain belief and attachment to those things.

[Matt]

Yeah. Yeah. So I think those are a number of the factors that have led to this overall pessimism. And I think media and honestly, technology are partly to blame as well. And unfortunately, news outlets, they've been incentivized to cover the stories that. Guess what? It's the stories that get us fired up that make us mad.

[Joel]

Well, that's what social media amplifies, too.

[Matt]

Yeah. Yeah. To write the headlines that are going to generate the most clicks, there's a reason you never see the headline like, local family enjoys a nice dinner together. An outdoor play session afterwards. Like, that is not. No one cares about that.

[Joel]

Womp, womp, zero clicks.

[Matt]

That is not going to go viral. And instead it's the polarizing tweets when it comes to traditional media. But like you said, social media as well. Right. And honestly, aside from the most divisive content that we can find on social media, I think the slow drip that we are exposing ourselves to of just like the images, the video that is undoubtedly leading to dissatisfaction in our own lives. Data from the cdc, they show that the number of teenagers over the last decade with clinical levels of depression has doubled. And there's research from Dr. Jean. I think it's twenge. We actually mentioned one of her articles a few weeks ago on a Friday flight. She dug into the data on millennials and how well they're actually doing compared to just the stereotype of what millennials.

[Joel]

Are often a pessimistic stereotype, the like.

[Matt]

That they're often throwing in when the.

[Joel]

Data shows more optimistic like results in reality.

[Matt]

Yeah, yeah. But she's done a lot of research on different generations. But she highlights that one of the ways that this depression has manifested itself is via pessimism. And this is especially evident among Gen Z. She noted that that's one of the. It's one of the biggest shifts. It's one of the big that she found when she dug through lots and lots of research between millennials and Gen Z is the outlook on life.

[Joel]

And the reality is that everything that we're experiencing, the more pessimism that we're feeling, it infiltrates every area of our lives and it really does impact our finances. And so that's what we really want to get into. That's the heart of the show for today. I think we just really wanted to set it up really well because there is. We're not fighting some straw man. Pessimism reigns supreme in our culture.

[Matt]

It truly is a root, real problem. But we're also not going to leave you in the lurch.

[Joel]

Right.

[Matt]

I feel like we've taken people on this journey and we're like at the bottom of the hill right now and we're not going to like open the door and kick you out and make you walk to the top.

[Joel]

Right.

[Matt]

We're going to help you to get.

[Joel]

To the top, but it really is going to. It's going to mess with your money if you retain too much pessimism. How it does ruin or how it can lead to ruin for your finances. We'll discuss more on that right after this.

[Matt]

The first step in solving any problem that we have in life, whether we're talking about a conflict in a relationship, why the check engine light is on. Right. Flashing on the car, or even why we can't seem to set aside enough money for different goals we have. The first step is to clearly define the problem. We've got to assess the situation. What's going on with your spending. And that is where Monarch money comes in. But Monarch is more than just a budgeting app. It works as your own personal cfo, giving you full visibility and control over all your accounts, investments, and financial goals.

[Joel]

Monarch is truly a game changer, and I love how you can choose goals that you want to hit and then you can rank them in order of priority. It's pretty rad. It makes those goals a lot more concrete and tangible. My top goal has been funding our family summer travels.

[Matt]

Nice.

[Joel]

So start managing your finances to build the life you actually want. The truth is, without a clear financial picture, your financial dreams really can feel out of reach. And Monarch makes managing money simple, even for busy lives.

[Matt]

That's right, man. Get control of your overall finances with Monarch Money. Use code [e-mail] in your browser for half off your first year. That's 50% off your first year at monarchmoney.com with code how to Money so Joel, you know I like the numbers. Well, here is a stat that will stop you in your tracks. Nearly half of American adults say that they would suffer financial hardship within six months if they lost their primary income earner. If that stat hits close to home, you are not alone and you are not out of options. Policygenius makes finding and buying life insurance simple, ensuring that your loved ones have a financial safety net that they can use in case something happens to you, whether to cover debts and routine expenses or even to invest the money and to earn interest over time. With Policygenius, you can find life insurance policies starting at just $276 a year for $1 million in coverage. It's an easy way to protect the people you love and feel good about the future.

[Joel]

Yeah, Matt, the listener feedback we get about policygenius is top notch, right? They love how easy it is to cross this off their to do list. And that's because policygenius helps you compare your options by getting quotes from America's top insurers in just a few clicks to find your lowest price. And then policygenius, they lay out all your options clearly, right? Coverage, amounts, prices, terms. There's no guesswork, just clarity.

[Matt]

Secure your family's future with Policygenius. Head to Policygenius.com to compare free life insurance quotes from top companies and see how much you can save. That's policygenius.com Life doesn't happen BI weekly.

[Joel]

So why should Payday, the money you earn, can be in your hands today with Earn In. Earn in is an app that gives you access to Your pay as you work up to $150 per day with a max of $750 between paydays. Just download the Earn in app and verify your paycheck. Then Access up to 150 dol day as you work and leave an optional tip. Any money you access plus tips are automatically repaid from your next paycheck. Make EarnIn a part of your financial routine and join Earn In's over 4 million customers who say things like, when I think about Earn In, I think about financial stability, security. It gives me a lot of peace of mind. Download Earnin today spelled E A R N I N in the Google Play or Apple App Store. When you download the Earn in app, type in how to Money Under Podcast when you sign up. That's how to Money under Podcast. Earn in is a financial technology company, not a bank. Cash Out. Some are based on your available earnings. Standard cash outs take one to two business days with no mandatory fees option to expedite your transfer for a fee. Tips are voluntary and don't affect the service. See the Cash out user agreement for details. Service is not available in all states.

[Matt]

All right, we are back. We're talking about how financial pessimism will wreck you. And all that being said, we just kind of talked through all the different ways that we are not fans of pessimism.

[Joel]

Check your pessimistic self before you wreck your pessimistic self.

[Matt]

But that being said, some pessimism is actually necessary. So we're gonna make a case for moderate doses of pessimism. You don't want to overdo it because it can lead to lots of downslides like we just talked about. But one of my favorite money quotes comes from friend of the show Morgan Housel and he says to save like a pessimist, but invest like an optimist. And the reality is that we save money because bad things, they can and they do happen in life. This is the reason that living paycheck to paycheck is such a precarious position to find yourself in, right? Like basically you've got zero financial margin. Our emergency funds are necessary because they act essentially as like these financial shock absorbers, right? Like they, they cushion and they smooth out the ride as we are pursuing our financial goals. And ultimately that small injection of pessimism is actually going to allow us to be optimistic over the long run because those, those savings are going to ensure that we don't completely derail ourselves, that we don't completely wreck ourselves. Joel ignoring reality, were we to wear Rose col glasses that could lead to financial ruin. And that's what we're trying to avoid here today.

[Joel]

Yeah, I love that balance. Right. Because I think optimism is the greater need, especially considering kind of what we're dealing with as a culture and as Americans with just too much pessimism. Just we're inundated with it. That's true. But it's also important to mention that, like, no pessimism and being optimistic at every turn and potentially not being realistic in terms of potential downsides, potential emergencies that could befall you, that would just be unwise, that would be not prudent when it comes to your finances. And theoretically, I think you might assume that pessimists would have lots of money sitting in cash in a savings account, that they would say, man, I'm nervous to invest, but at least what I'm going to do, because a rainy day thing could happen and it can mess me up. I'm going to make sure I have more cash in my reserves. That is what you would assume a pessimist would do. But the reality doesn't play out this way either. Data shows that while nearly two thirds of optimists have started an emergency fund, less than half of pessimists have one.

[Matt]

That's crazy.

[Joel]

Yeah. So even though we should be saving like pessimists because unforeseen expenses always crop up, optimistic people actually end up saving money at a higher clip. And practically speaking, Matt, this is why money year number one is to set enough money aside for a basic emergency fund, which we have named as just. It's hard to come up with a one size fits all figure, but we have said $2,467 is a great initial amount for people to strive to have in that emergency fund before they move on to any other money gear. And then we want you to put that money aside and don't touch it for anything other than a true emergency, which is like an unplanned doctor's visit that's necessary. If your AC stops working, you gotta replace the compressor. An insurance deductible that I am dealing with right now. So these are the kind of things that. That emergency savings is really meant for.

[Matt]

Yeah, yeah. You've had a firsthand account of the need to use your emergency fund recently, unfortunately.

[Joel]

And a pessimist would say, gosh darn that that sucks. That I'm. But the optimist would say, that's what the emergency fund's there for. Sure. I'm glad I have it.

[Matt]

Absolutely. So that's the impact of being optimistic that it can have on your savings. But then that second part of Morgan Housel's advice is invest like an optimist. Because let's just be honest, if it seems like it's going to be all doom and gloom, right. If the future does not look bright, why would you actually invest your money?

[Joel]

If AI is going to run everything and we're actually going to like, I.

[Matt]

Don'T know, I saw if Skynet's about to take over.

[Joel]

Yeah.

If it's going to. What was that Joaquin Phoenix movie? Was it her or she? Something like that where he never watched it.

[Matt]

Dates the AI Basically, Scarlett Johansson's voice is the AI.

[Joel]

I mean, if that's our collective future, then we should all just stop investing now and unplug from the Matrix.

[Matt]

No, it's true. Like, if you truly believe that things are going to be worse in the future, then you really should just take your cash and don't even stick it in the bank because of course those could fail as well. And we've actually have seen a couple of those fail recently. But don't put it, stick your money with a bank. Stick it under your mattress, right? Like bury in your backyard actually money or like cash regarded it could degrade. And so make sure go ahead and.

[Joel]

Make it gold while you're at it. Right?

[Matt]

Because if you're too pessimistic, like, you definitely wouldn't consider investing in companies who are going to take your money. They're going to use it to innovate. They would develop new products and services, make the world a better place. No, no, no, that's not going to happen. If you're taking the pessimistic point of.

[Joel]

View, we might not even be around to see it because World War three might be around the corner. So it just doesn't, it, it doesn't make sense.

[Matt]

It makes me realize just how, how skilled we've become at hedonic adaptation and the age we live in and just the technological advances that we expose ourselves to. Like, literally, I feel like it's on a daily basis that there's something in the news where it's just like, oh, this was able to be achieved. Oh, and we're not impressed by it anymore. Like, we are constantly just like, okay, it's just the new normal.

[Joel]

Even those, like, James Webb telescope pictures, it's cool for a day or two.

[Matt]

I know, but then we quickly move on and that's just yesterday'. There's something about just the speed at which technology advances today that I think has caused us to be able to move on so quickly. We're just no longer excited by anything that we come across. Jonathan Haidt, he's a researcher, social researcher, social scientist. And you brought something up to me. Like you mentioned how he was talking about how like we lack awe.

[Joel]

Yes.

[Matt]

In our world today.

[Joel]

Right.

[Matt]

And he said something like awe is like a reset button, how it pulls us out of ourselves. And in a way it's almost as if there's nothing that awes us anymore. Like nothing is impressive. And when you're not excited, when you're not impressed by anything, well, why would you invest for the future? Because it's all just ho hum. And there's nothing that is worth kind of getting all excited about.

[Joel]

It's illustrated by the fact that we use awesome to define everything. It's like because we don't really find anything to be truly awesome anymore. And so it's awesome, dude. And because of that, I think that language, it means something and it shows that we have kind of lost our capacity to feel that awe. And I do think that something that.

[Matt]

Is truly awe inspiring.

[Joel]

Yeah, I think that's part of the problem. But when you think about it logically, Matt, I joked about World War Three, but it's actually, it's kind of hard to imagine worse scenarios than what we've already lived through in the world over the decades, in the centuries. Like think back to Genghis Khan. Right? Like that was a crazy time in human history. When you compare what was happening then. And I'm not like some history buff that knows all about it, but like it seems like a tumultuous time for a lot of people on the Asian continent. Yeah. And like we've had wars, pandemics, world wars. Right. Depressions. Yet human progress has been unrelenting. And when we're talking about fly around.

[Matt]

In a metal tube at what, 450 miles per hour.

[Joel]

I know you have like the world, all the information, history of the world almost in the palm of your hand in your pocket. There's just so much that's happened really in the past couple decades that has changed our lives for the better. As long as we can siphon off our attention long enough to not get drawn in too far. Right. And when we're talking about optimism and investing, we're not talking about being naive. Right. Investing in the latest random crypto coin because you're hoping it's going to go to the moon. That is an entirely different thing. You of course want to thoroughly consider the pros and the cons of any potential investment you might make, you need to understand that you're risking the loss of capital when you invest money in the stock market or in any. In any potential investment in real estate. Right. Like, there's no guarantee that real estate markets go up, continue to go up the same way they have been. But, yeah, you want to have optimism, though, that the US and world economies are going to continue to create and solve problems, generating wealth for those companies and for the folks like you and I who invest in them.

[Matt]

Yeah, Yeah. I think we need to be focusing on the upside potential that is unleashed or that's unlocked by our ability to invest for the future. I want to share an interesting quote from chess grand champion Magnus Carlsen. This is kind of a long one, so I'll. I'll emphasize the parts that are important, I think. But he said that it's always better to be overly confident than pessimistic. I realized sometimes after games that I was actually way too confident. I was way too optimistic. But if you're not optimistic, if you're not looking for your chances, well, you're going to miss opportunities. And, you know, I think there are plenty of players in history who have been immensely talented, but they're just too pessimistic. They see. This is the part that stood out to me. They see too many dangers that are not there, and so they cannot perform at a very high level. Wow, dude, this is such a great quote. I think, for someone specifically out there who's listening, and maybe they're afraid or maybe they're hesitant to actually invest their money, and perhaps they're sitting on a large amount of cash. We're not saying that bad things don't happen, because they do. But if you are so preoccupied with prepping for every single potential negative outcome, well, you're going to miss your chance to seriously grow your net worth by investing your money. Makes me think. We've had questions to the show before about folks asking about some very niche insurance products.

[Joel]

And like, cancer insurance is one example.

[Matt]

Or like pet insurance. And it's not that we think that you shouldn't love your dog or that you shouldn't spend money on your cat or something like that, but you can't insure.

[Joel]

Definitely not in your journal, though.

[Matt]

Or you shouldn't insure. I guess you can, like, because there are crazy insurance products out there. But to a certain extent, you have to assume some of those risks. There truly isn't a way to eliminate all risk from your life. It's just It's a part of living life.

[Joel]

Yeah. And so we have to be wise about which ones we take on ourselves and which ones we do insure. Like my home. Glad I had insurance on that. Right. Because that is one of those things where I couldn't replace it on my own. A laptop, that's a different story. A gerbil, that's a different story. And even pet insurance, like running the numbers. Figuring that out is important, but for a lot of people, you can go bankrupt insuring yourself, I think. Right. Like there are so many insurance products out there for every potential niche situation. You could insure yourself to the hilt. And that would be, I think, almost like the pessimistic way of going about things. The realistic, with a bent towards optimism thing to do would be to insure the things that you need insured and then self insure the rest of the way, having that money in the bank. But I think that's a good point. And in addition, a 2019 study, Matt, found that optimists are more likely to make financial progress because they can more easily see the upside of taking action. And that's one of the downsides of being overly pessimistic. Because even though you might have the right information, you fail to take action because you doubt that it's going to make much of a difference. You understand maybe the power of compounding. But when you're too pessimistic, you envision a world where the most expected outcome of growth and progress don't actually materialize. And so you end up missing out.

[Matt]

Yeah. Like I almost think that in this case this is an instance where a lack of imagination, a lack of understanding what the potentials might be down the road is going to come back to bite you in the butt. I think we need to be able to just think more creatively and not be locked into sort of like a scarcity mindset where it's just like whatever it is that you see right now in the present time, that doesn't necessarily mean that that is where things end. Like things are going to continue to expand and there are going to be innovations and new products and new ways of solving problems.

[Joel]

Exactly.

[Matt]

Like you were just underestimating, like the ability of humanity to creatively solve problems. Even thinking something that's what I don't.

[Joel]

Like, like global warming. There are, don't they have like sea slugs in certain parts of the ocean who are creating some sort of oil that might potentially replace fossil fuels at some point? I mean, it's, it's like these are the kind of things that some entrepreneurs and brainiacs out there are testing. I don't know whether it's going to succeed, but like there are, there's always someone looking to make progress. And human ingenuity, it doesn't stop even in the face of tumultuous circumstances. So I think that if you're not investing, betting on human ingenuity to just kind of like cease, you're really doubting human history and all the progress that we've currently made, you're saying it's probably going to stop now just when it's getting good. Right? Just when it's getting interesting. And I doubt that's going to be the case. So simply put, this means continuing to invest no matter what the markets are doing and no matter what, matter what the news outlets are reporting. But again, we're not talking about unbridled, ridiculous, obscene optimism that has no bearing in reality. Right? Because like going all in on a single stock because you're hoping that that one's going to take off, that would be gambling. That'd be like risk taking to the extreme. Or there was this apartment complex, Matt. The owners of it foreclosed on a 3200 unit apartment complex in Houston largely because they were not just, just optimistic, they were reckless. Right. They took out debt that did not have almost any locked in interest rate. And as interest rates went up, they felt the crunch, cash crunch. They assumed that rents would continue to go up the way they had been going up during COVID which was extreme. Those have leveled out. They have moderated if not started to decline. It's not wrong to buy real estate and plan for potential scenarios that aren't best case. You should, you should have a plan in place, a backup plan. I feel like that is a perfect example of investing in a way that assumes everything is going to continue to go gangbusters over the long term. Things will, we believe in the market if HTM listeners continue to invest for the next 15, 20, 30 years in the market markets, you will build wealth. But if you recklessly invest and you're not paying attention to the terms and you're not paying attention to kind of the trends and what could potentially happen even on the scene, then you're not striking that that balanced combo that kind of Morgan Housel is preaching, I think in that quote.

[Matt]

Yeah, that's true.

[Joel]

Yeah.

[Matt]

I mean like earlier, not so long ago, you mentioned just how what's needed most is more optimism. Right? That's what you see. Like that's when that's what's in the headlines is the collapse of ftx.

[Joel]

Yeah.

[Matt]

This bank folds because of pyramid scheme. Whatever. What you don't hear are stories about the millions of Americans who are becoming millionaires because they're slowly investing within their 401ks day in and day out.

[Joel]

We try to highlight those too. When Fidelity and Vanguard report those numbers.

[Matt]

We love that. Good news. Exactly.

[Joel]

And there are millions of people out there who have become millionaires the slow, boring, methodical way.

[Matt]

Absolutely. Yeah. And so we want folks to be optimistic in that measured, just plugging away at it. Kind of like that's the approach we want folks to take. And optimists, well, they also tend to do better in their careers and they make more money. Stats show that sales folks who consider themselves to be optimistic, they outsell their pessimistic counterparts by 56%. That's a pretty giant gap. Optimists, they also tend to make more and they get promoted more easily. It's almost as if, as if the optimism is adding, like some helpful fuel to the fire on the work front. Because honestly, if you don't think that your boss is going to give you a raise, and so because of that, because you don't think it's going to happen, then you opt not to act, ask. Well, you're definitely not going to get the raise.

[Joel]

Right.

[Matt]

Like, you're just shooting yourself in the foot if you don't make the sales call because you think that the chances are kind of small that you're going to make the sale, that they'll actually be receptive. Well, you've sealed your fate without even giving it a go. And so it kind of, it makes sense that optimism fuels your career, it fuels your earning potential. And we certainly want folks to take the more optimistic path when it comes to their work and their career.

[Joel]

Makes me think of how my kids ask for things and they are unafraid to ask for basically anything. Like my daughter, she's nine and she's like, I want a laptop for my birthday. And I'm kind of thinking, thinking, yeah, right, not gonna happen. But she is without fail, continually asking for this thing, continually plugging away for it.

[Matt]

She's got that Joel optimism streak in her.

[Joel]

She does. So sadly, this has gotten passed down from just genes. Right. She's got it built into her genetics. But it's one of those things where those kids, they believe anything is possible and we need a little more of that. That playful spirit, that optimistic belief.

[Matt]

They haven't been beaten down by this cold, hard world.

[Joel]

It's true. That's part of why I think we get there is we have been told no, we have been rejected and start to learn. We start to think that the best course of action is to not even believe or to not even attempt. Right. And so we're basically saying even though you might have had those experiences, there's room, there's reason for optimism. It makes me think of a phrase that we've all heard, Matt, in this economy and it's kind of an excuse, right, because who can make inroads in their career, their savings or investments in.

[Matt]

This economy, in this economy when everything.

[Joel]

Around us is tumultuous. Right. Too much pessimism will ultimately cause you to want to save and invest less. Like why do more work for the future when you don't necessarily believe that you can build a better one or that your kids can have a better future and it becomes a self fulfilling prophecy. You either won't reach those lofty financial goals or it's going to take a lot longer to get there. And so be careful if you lean too hard in that direction because it's going to impact your savings, it's going to impact whether or not you invest or how much you invest or how you invest. It's also going to impact your career, the chances you're willing to take and how hard you're willing to go to achieve something that, that you really, that you're really passionate about. I think if we are too beaten down, Matt, by our prior experiences and the ways which we have been let down in the past, we are liable to lean into that pessimism really hard. And everything around us is kind of pushing us in that direction too. But we have to like swim across the current on this.

[Matt]

That's right, yeah. So we've talked through some of the impacts that being optimistic and what the kind of impact that that can have on your money, on your finances. But we're going to specifically tips that we think are going to help you to become more optimistic. And yeah, that's going to impact not only your money, but it's going to impact your life in a very real way. We'll get to all of that right after this. So Joel, you know, I like the numbers. Well, here is a stat that will stop you in your tracks. Nearly half of American adults say that they would suffer financial hardship within six months if they lost their primary income earners. If that stat hits close to home, you are not alone and you are not out of options. Policygenius makes finding and buying life insurance Simple Ensuring that your loved ones have a financial safety net that they can use in case something happens to you, whether to cover debts and routine expenses or even to invest the money and to earn interest over time. With Policygenius you can find life insurance policies starting at just $276 a year for $1 million in coverage. It's an easy way to protect the people you love and feel good about the future.

[Joel]

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[Matt]

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[Joel]

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[Matt]

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[Joel]

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[Matt]

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[Joel]

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[Matt]

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[Joel]

All right, Matt, let's keep going. We're talking about about financial optimism. This is just one of my favorite subjects because yes, I am naturally optimistic. I was actually talking with a friend last night and he was like, why do you like such depressing music? And I was like, why do you listen to the tunes that are just like so freaking sad and down? And I was like, I think it's just because I'm such a naturally optimistic.

[Matt]

Person needed to balance you out. Is that why we're friends? Because you need a wet blanket every now and again?

[Joel]

I mean, I feel like it helps put me in touch.

[Matt]

It's good to know yourself.

[Joel]

Yeah. With something that I have a hard time getting in touch with normally. But I do think there's a difference between being optimistic and not being realistic. And I think too, it's important to realize that we're all born with certain dispositions and you can't just flip a switch. And yes, maybe I came out of the womb more naturally sunny by nature. I don't know. Who knows? Nature versus nurture. That's a deep question that we can't really get into on this podcast and we would know how to, but that it doesn't mean that we have no impact on our day to day viewpoints or that we have no ability to change, even if we kind of have a natural predilection towards certain ways of being or thinking. And research finds that mindset is only about 25% hereditary, which shows that we all have a reasonable level of control over our thought life. So Matt, let's talk about how to increase our optimism. I think that's really important because we've seen how it can negatively impact our finances. So how do we then infuse more optimism into our lives, enabling it to hopefully help us make more progress in the realm of money, but in other areas too. That's right.

[Matt]

Well, the first thing everyone needs to do is take an ice bath, because that's gonna activate your brown. No, I mean, all joking aside, exercise and tending to your physical health, it has profound implications for your mood, for your body. And studies show that folks who participate in vigorous exercise, they tend to be significantly more optimistic than fatigue, folks who had lower rates of activity. So, simply put, what this means is get out there and lift some weights, maybe get on a rowing machine like Joel. Simply just go for a hike with a friend and make those things regular occurrences in your life. Find ways to just incorporate these into the natural rhythm as opposed to it being something that you're going to do for three weeks at the beginning of the year. And no surprise that folks who are exercising more, more, not only are they more optimistic, but these optimists live between 11 and 15% longer on average. You literally live longer when you are exercising more, when you are more optimistic. And these folks also show that they stressed about their finances for 145 fewer days compared to their more pessimistic counterparts.

[Joel]

It's like almost half a year. Yeah. Could you imagine I stress about money half as much?

[Matt]

Imagine not thinking about. About money, which for a lot of folks is something that just really. It's on their mind a lot. It stresses them out.

[Joel]

You talked about the constant, like, IQ drain, essentially. Oh, my gosh, like 12 IQ points that people lose by being constantly stressed about money. And part of that is just a pessimistic bent that's taken over. Part of it has a big impact, literally a lack of savings. But part of it then is the mental belief or the mental connection they have to that money as well.

[Matt]

Yeah, but, yeah, going back to the most very happy people from the latest Wall Street Journal study that they did in conjunction with University of Chicago Chicago, it's folks who are active. And so just get out there, stay fit.

[Joel]

Makes me think, though, a pessimist might say, oh, you're gonna live 11 to 15% longer. That means there's more money you gotta save for retirement. So might as well warm that in the bud right now.

[Matt]

All right, Eeyore.

[Joel]

Yeah, but that's where pessimism can take you. And Matt, you just, you kind of hinted at social connections. That's another thing you can do to increase your. Your optimism levels. You said go on a hike with a friend. And I do think hanging out more With Family, Friends and Neighbors is a pretty darn good piece of advice that is really going to kind of spur us in that direction. There's a new book called Hanging out, and the author makes the case for the importance of casual hangs. I feel like I could have anecdotally written it.

[Matt]

I feel like that's a book that I could have written.

[Joel]

Right. Exactly. Exactly.

[Matt]

Well, I mean, isn't it ridiculous that, like, on one hand, I hate that book because it seems kind of intuitive. You're like, yeah, yeah, okay, yeah, I need to hang out with.

[Joel]

Do we need a book to tell friends? Yeah.

[Matt]

But that being said, that says a lot about our society that we need a book like this because we have so focused on one particular sector of our lives that we need it spelled out in order to realize. In order for us to lift our nose from the grindstone like we talked about. You already mentioned Simone. We talked with him on Monday's episode about just creating a more diversified identity and having friends again. Seems silly that we need to. That we're saying this out loud, but that's such an important part of living a joyful and fulfilled life.

[Joel]

Well, and hanging out with people is such a radical proposition these days that she got interviewed on Ezra Klein Show. It's that apparently insane of an idea to think that maybe this is gonna make us feel better.

[Matt]

Crazy.

[Joel]

And I think it will. Right. And so, yeah, I feel like even introverts, they need human connection. And the pandemic just did a number on all of us. And so figuring out how to rekindle those friendships is crucial to our future optimism because we're beings meant to live in community with one another, and. And meaningful relationships can turn that frown upside down.

[Matt]

Well, and not only, I think, hanging out with friends, but also family. So kind of going back to some of the studies that we presented at the beginning of the episode, it's folks who are valuing family. And I think often what that can also mean is reaching out to your parents. You're out living on your own, maybe for the first time, or maybe you're in your 30s, you've got a kid, and you're basically completely slammed. You're in that stage of life where you have no margin when it comes to your schedule at all. It feels like every second, every minute is being scheduled. But what that means is prioritizing those relationships, prioritizing family. And I think that kind of, like, dovetails with the social connection that we get from hanging out with friends as well.

[Joel]

So our friend who donated this Beer to the show. 5:00am Joel, he has like a recurring happy hour that he does with people on his street. And everybody knows Friday's at 4. It's hanging out in Joel's front yard. Nice BYOB. So it's not like he has got to get like his place cleaned up or, or anything like that. Like, it's super chill. And I think that's a really good like maybe potential thing to implement that doesn't put a big burden on you to create some sort of hangout space. Yeah, it's literally just like green light, four o', clock, let's go, let's hang, let's talk. The kids will run around, do crazy stuff to each other. Yeah, it's. That's like a good way to go about it.

[Matt]

It helps too when you live in LA and the weather's always nice.

[Joel]

That's true.

[Matt]

We can like hang out outside in the front yard.

[Joel]

Yeah.

[Matt]

But maybe that's an argument for moving down to the sun belt like so many folks are doing these days. But another bit of advice that we think is going to lead you to becoming more optimistic is to consume less media, both mainstream and social media. Because, I mean, you probably don't want to be completely ignorant of what's going on out there in the world. Right. But the 247 news cycle, it hasn't been a good thing for us as a country. And tuning into it with regularity isn't doing great things for your outlook on life. In all likelihood, thinking about politics less, that would likely help a great deal, a great number of folks as well. And let's be honest, it's not like we have the ability to change much of that anyway. And so that's kind of like the mainstream national media. But when it comes to social media, man, like delete apps from your phone if you find yourself doom scrolling late at night. And it's a keeping you from going to sleep on time because you just keep scrolling and you keep scrolling and then on the top of, of that you're blasting yourself not only with potentially unhealthy content, that's comparing yourself to other people and the lives of folks who, where you're like, oh, I kind of wish I was abroad or I wish I was doing. What is it like slow travel where you're living in a country for months at a time.

[Joel]

Well, that's that unhealthy blue light stuff too, right?

[Matt]

Yeah, exactly. That's what I was going to say. Just blasting your brain like that blue light. It's telling your brain that it's not time to go to sleep. Then by the time you do put.

[Joel]

Your phone down, it's party time. And it's going to take you an extra hour of turning and wrestling and.

[Matt]

Yeah, it's crappy sleep. And so, I mean, I think it can, it sounds silly, but even just charging your phone in a different room, I think that can go a long ways. And it's something that sounds like old, like fuddy duddy advice, but I like, literally, I think this is something I'm going to start implementing in my own life because I find myself like, okay, I'm gonna scroll for a little bit longer before I know it, like 15 minutes has elapsed and I'm like, dang it, I should already be asleep by now.

[Joel]

Yeah, no, I think that's good. That's good advice. And I think something else, this one's gonna sound a bit woo woo, Matt. Which is not normally my vibe. But imagining good things for your future, I think that can also help when it comes to becoming more optimistic. And what I mean is like thinking about what it's going to be like to achieve your goals, it can give you the visualization to keep going down the path of reaching them in the here and now. And so I don't know, imagine future you with no credit card debt and meaningful savings on hand and how that would significantly change your life. And it's not some sort of dream it and achieve it thing. I hate stuff like that. But the way we talk to ourselves matters. It's crazy important.

[Matt]

Manifest it, Joel.

[Joel]

Not that like it's. And I don't know how to say it without like kind of toeing this line. Right. But so many studies have found this, like how we talk to ourselves and how we're able to conceive of our own futures. If we can think good things about those things, then it's going to actually help put us on the path in the right direction. When we can visualize it, it makes us more motivated then to do the things here and there now that are going to help us actually get there. And if we keep doubting our ability to make progress, it's going to directly impact the actions that we take or opt not to take.

[Matt]

Yeah, but simultaneously there's a balance to strike between looking ahead to the future and being thankful for the things that you already have. The ability to kind of look back on your history and to be thankful.

[Joel]

For those things 100%. And so that's actually, I think, another thing that helps us breed more optimism Optimism is to document the good things that we have right now. This is a practice that we actually. That we do at the dinner table every night with our kids. And we call it, like, a rose, a bud, and a thorn. And so what was your rose of the day? What was the best thing that happened today? What's the bud? What's the thing you're looking forward to in the future? Is it camp this summer? Is it a field trip? Like, is it the end of school? Is it, like, what is it that you're excited about? And then the thorn, like, let's talk about the bad things, too. Sometimes bad things happen. And then how can we discuss that in a way that maybe makes us feel better and kind of turns that negative. The negative thing that might have happened that day into a healing conversation? So I don't know. That's kind of how we practice it. And again, maybe that sounds a little weird, but I think. I think it's good documenting those good things. Like, we're so quick to discount those good things. Or not even. Like, when someone does something amazing for us, it's not about saying thank you that someone made you dinner. I mean, what does it do for them when you say that, when you use those words? And then what does it do for you when you actually acknowledge it?

[Matt]

Yeah. Yeah. In my mind, it's less about. It's not that we're actively trying to discount things. It's just that we're just looking ahead. Right. There's a fine balance between setting goals for yourself and working towards those things versus constantly only looking forward and looking ahead. Which is why I think, like, you said, like, pausing for a moment and talking about your day, like, looking to the past, how that can be helpful. A conversation Kate and I've had recently is like, we've noticed that we don't have many photos, like, hung up in our house. And I think one of the things that we're gonna do is literally put print out pictures from our past to help us to be thankful for where we are now. I love it because I think Kate and I are both very visual, and I think we need some visual cues to help us to remember what has happened in the past. You know, like, we need those things to help us to see that. Like, oh, man, look at that tiny apartment that we used to live in. Can you believe that?

[Joel]

Look how far we've come.

[Matt]

Yeah. Or look how small the kids were. Or like, oh, man, look how unhealthy I was back then. Like, I'm in much better Health now. But the ability to reflect upon those things can make us grateful for the things that we've achieved in the past. And not only can it be, I think it can also make us a little more content, perhaps, with the life that we're living now. Like. Like, I almost think by thinking about things that have happened in the past and by being gracious for those things, that I'm able to live more presently within the here and now. Right. And so it's not like you're just completely living in the past where you're just like, oh, yeah, the good old days, like, where you're hanging out with a bunch of high school buddies or something like that.

[Joel]

We're experiencing a lot of the nostalgia craze because we miss the days of yore. That's why the Super Mario Brothers movie, even though apparently it wasn't good, like, made 800 million.

[Matt]

Oh, did it really?

[Joel]

Because I think we're longing for nostalgic events because we think that things were better in the 90s. And when. Like, when you think about it, if you could be. If someone said, I've got a time machine, where should I transport you back to? Most of us probably wouldn't choose to go back to anywhere in the past, I mean, unless, like, something terrible has.

[Matt]

Happened in your life. But think about just positive emotions about things in the past.

[Joel]

Yeah. Which is. And there's nothing wrong with that. There's nothing wrong with having this. Like, I like to listen to Third Eye Blind and be like, oh, the 90s were great, but it doesn't mean that I want to, like, live in that either.

[Matt]

Yeah, man, I totally agree. And I think it's important to point out here that being an optimist, this does not mean ignoring bad things completely. Right. Like, I think we've all met folks out there who will tell you that, like, hey, it'll be all right. Like, don't worry about it at all the moment after something really bad has happened. Like, in my mind, that's not necessarily optimism. It's almost avoidance, where you're just. Just squashing any feelings that you might have. Optimism isn't about tamping down how it is that you feel about something. It's really all about putting difficulties that you encounter in a new light. It's sort of saying to yourself, hey, this is an obstacle. This is a hurdle. It's going to take some extra effort on my part, but I'm still going to get to where I want to be. I think it's okay to feel the sheer weight the sheer crappiness of a situation. We just don't want you to sit in that funk for too long. It's okay to recognize those feelings, but then pretty shortly after that, to be like, okay, but again, this is what I'm working towards, and I need to make sure that we're taking the steps to get there.

[Joel]

Yeah. And right now, collectively, as a society, we're stewing in our own pessimism, and it is radically unhealthy. And so optimism, we would say, is a sort of crazy thing when you think about it. It has all these incredible benefits. And the thing is, the more progress you make, the more optimistic you start to become. It's the opposite, Matt, of what you were talking about earlier, like, the terrible, vicious cycle. And it becomes where now taking those continued steps in the right direction breeds even more progress. It's a virtuous cycle of sorts right now. You know, it can be done. And so you keep doing it, and you start to make progress, and you get energized by the progress, and you keep marching in the right direction. And I'm not. I don't think either of us is saying that optimism is a cure all for poverty or for not having enough money or for having, like, no income.

[Matt]

Hey, just be happier, right?

[Joel]

Yeah, Just turn that frown upside down.

[Matt]

Just have a better outlook on life.

[Joel]

Slap yourself on the butt and keep going. I mean, that's not what we're saying here. But especially, I think, in today's day and age with what's going on in our culture as a whole, we need a message that optimism is warranted and that it makes a difference.

[Matt]

Share this episode with three friends, and we will upload a video of Joel slapping himself on the butt. All right, man, let's get to the beer that you and I enjoyed during this episode.

[Joel]

It's so gangly.

[Matt]

It's gonna look real weird, like you smack somebody else on the butt, like, all right, go get em. Or like, you pat yourself on the back.

[Joel]

But you.

[Matt]

You said, pat yourself on the butt. Which, in my mind, was a very funny picture. Our beer, we enjoyed a stress dissolver. This was a BlackBerry sour beer by Common Space. A big thanks to our friend Joel out in California for donating this one to the show. What were your thoughts on this one, buddy?

[Joel]

All right, so this was lightly sour. BlackBerry is not usually a berry found in beers. I feel like it's often raspberries or strawberries or cherries, but this was.

[Matt]

Or blueberry or blueberry.

[Joel]

So this was interesting. And, yeah, BlackBerry is like lower on.

[Matt]

The hierarchy of the different berries that get used in the brewing process.

[Joel]

Yeah. They're usually kind of second fiddle, right. To all the other berries. Fifth fiddle. They all shine today, though, in this one. And so. Yeah, no, I liked it. It was. It was really light for a beer. So it wasn't terribly, terribly tart.

[Matt]

Yeah. It wasn't super sour. Like, it's a sour beer, but it didn't have, like, it wasn't overly acidic. It didn't have like that mouth puckering sourness to it.

[Joel]

It could really still be kind of like a lawnmower beer. Right. If you.

[Matt]

Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Joel]

You know, just kind of. I know beer doesn't actually quench your thirst, but a beer that kind of feels thirst quenching.

[Matt]

Like it. And it was effervescent and so it kind of. It almost made me think of like a BlackBerry soda. Right. Like, it was just real clean. It didn't have any funk. Almost like a Berliner Weiss, but without that wheaty chewiness that oftentimes finishes out a Berliner Vice. You know what I'm saying?

[Joel]

Yeah. Yeah. Okay. Yeah.

[Matt]

Nice. Yeah. Well, either way, I'm glad you and I got to enjoy this one. It's a very delicious beer to have on some of these warmer days that we've been experiencing. So maybe I'll crack one of these and get to cutting my grass right after this episode.

[Joel]

There you go. All right. Sounds nice. Well, thanks everybody, for listening. We always appreciate it. If you want links to some of the stuff we mentioned, you can find those up on the show [e-mail] and if you want more optimistic money advice, you can always find that in our how to money newsletter, which comes out every Tuesday morning. You can sign up for [e-mail] newsletter. It's free, by the way, so it's right. Check it out.

[Matt]

But that's gonna be it for this one, buddy. Until next time, best friends out. Best friends.

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[Joel]

This is an iHeart podcast.