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- [00:00]
Yaneli Espinal
This is an iHeart podcast.
- [00:04]
Joel
Hey, it's Joel and Matt from how to Money. Matt, you and I, we do a decent amount of traveling. So what's a place that you think lived up to the hype?
- [00:13]
Matt
That one is tough. But immediately what comes to mind is Scotland. The scenery in particular was insane. I'm specifically thinking about when we went and hiked Old Man Store. Oh, yeah. Felt like we were on a completely different planet. It was otherworldly.
- [00:27]
Joel
Sure was. Yeah. Yeah. And our Airbnb on the Isle of Skye, man, it looked straight out this field into the sea, total tranquility and the castle gardens that we saw. And it felt straight out of a fairy tale.
- [00:38]
Matt
It's true. Yeah. That trip showed us how big a difference the right place makes. And if you've got travel plans, don't let your place sit empty. Airbnb's co host feature makes it easy to earn a little cash while someone else manages the day to day.
- [00:51]
Joel
That's right, find a co host@airbnb.com host this episode is brought to you by Navy Federal Credit Union. Navy Federal can help you find and finance the right vehicle with ease. If you don't have the cash on hand with Navy Federal's car buying service, powered by Truecar, you can find the vehicle that's right for you as you search through inventory and compare models. And you could get an amazing rate when you finance with Navy Federal.
- [01:14]
Matt
Visit navy federal.org truecar to learn more. Navy Federal is insured by NCUA Credit and Collateral subject to approval.
- [01:22]
Joel
Where do you see your career in 10 years? What are you doing now to help you get there? The sooner you start enhancing your skills, the sooner you'll be ready. That's why AARP has reskilling courses in a variety of categories like marketing and management to help your income live as long as you do.
- [01:38]
Matt
That's right. AARP has a bevy of free skill building courses for you to choose from because the steps that you choose to take today will help you to love what you do in the future. And that's why the younger you are, the more you need AARP. Learn more at aarp.org skills welcome to how to Money.
- [01:56]
Joel
I'm Joel.
- [01:56]
Matt
And I am Matt.
- [01:58]
Joel
And today we're talking Food Stamps to Financial Freedom with Y Vinelli Espinal.
- [02:22]
Matt
That's right. Our guest today has journeyed from food stamps to financial freedom, and we're going to hear all about how she was able to accomplish that. We are joined today by Yaneli, who is also known as Ms. Be Helpful. She is the first generation daughter of immigrants. She was born in Brooklyn and it didn't take her long to rack up $20,000 in credit card debt before she realized that this was not the life that she wanted to lead. She started her career as a teacher and then parlayed that into serving as the director of Educational outreach at Next Gen Personal Finance. And now she's recently published her first book, Mind you'd, and she's currently actually on a political roller coaster ride across the country where she's convincing lawmakers to make personal finance a high school graduation requirement. We are excited to talk about all of that and more today. Yanneli, thank you for joining us on the podcast.
- [03:16]
Yaneli Espinal
Oh, thank you so much for having me. What's up, guys? I'm so excited for this conversation. I really am.
- [03:21]
Joel
Oh, we're stoked too. We're stoked. We saw you speak in person last year at fincon, which is the nerdy conference that money ridiculous people who are interested in money to a ridiculous place.
- [03:31]
Matt
Where money and media meet.
- [03:32]
Joel
That's right. And Yanneli rocked it. She was, I think, probably the best speaker of the evening for sure. Yeah. So we're like now when you had the book come out, we were like, okay, well, it's time to get Yanneli on the show for. Yes, it's been too. How have we not done this yet?
- [03:46]
Matt
No brainer, right?
- [03:47]
Yaneli Espinal
Love that.
- [03:48]
Joel
But the first question we ask everyone who comes on the show, Yannelli, is what do you like to splurge on? Matt and I, we drink a lot of craft beer.
- [03:55]
Matt
Yeah, Just the right amount.
- [03:57]
Joel
In moderation. In moderation, yeah.
- [04:00]
Matt
Not too much. Absolutely.
- [04:01]
Joel
But we drink expensive beers. It's something you like to spend more than the average person on. It's something that we, we like to prioritize in the here and now, even while we're being, trying to be smart wise with our money, save and invest for the future. But what is that for you?
- [04:15]
Yaneli Espinal
Right. For me, I would say it's definitely getting deep tissue, full body massages. I am like, I don't know, it's so weird because like, I'm not like, you know, Naomi Saga or anything. Like, I'm not going and having like a personalized like masseuse in my home all day, every day. But I work a lot, I'm at my computer a lot, I exercise a lot. And I feel like, because I'm so passionate, so animated and like I use my hands to talk and I hold tension like in My body, in my face and my neck, my arms. So after, like, a really intense week, I just feel the pressure, like, the tension, like, in my body. And there's nothing like a full body deep tissue massage, like, really getting the knots out of my back. Super relaxing. Just letting go of everything. It's almost meditative, too, because my mind's, like, not really thinking about anything and just enjoying, you know, this moment of relaxation. And so for an hour every month at least, I try and go, if not more than once a month, depending on how hectic the month is. But I'll sometimes spend, you know, upwards of $250 if it's, like, at a fancy resort or spa or something, and if I'm traveling to really, you know, get a nice, high quality deep tissue massage.
- [05:18]
Joel
Well, that is. Yeah, that sounds awesome. I'm in for that. And so you said, like, yeah, once a month or so, which is not cheap. I will say, too, that that is the only time I'm able to shut my mind off is, like, a massage. And I don't do. And so, like, see, when I do.
- [05:32]
Matt
It, I shut my mind. I fall asleep.
- [05:34]
Joel
Yeah.
- [05:34]
Yaneli Espinal
See, a lot of people, I get close to that. A lot of people that do. A lot of people do fall asleep, too. I just. I don't know, man. I enjoy it. I'm rested, but I'm definitely awake and enjoy it.
- [05:44]
Matt
Yeah, you get a more often. For me, it's like once every, like, two or three years, tops.
- [05:49]
Yaneli Espinal
Oh, my gosh. No. That would be torture.
- [05:52]
Joel
That's something I'm trying to prioritize, too. I'm trying to do it more.
- [05:54]
Matt
Yeah. Joel's into the massage.
- [05:56]
Joel
Just getting back into it more than I am.
- [05:58]
Matt
Well, okay. Thank you for sharing that, Yaneli. And by the way. Yeah. 250. I mean, that's.
- [06:03]
Yaneli Espinal
That's a lot. So that's a lot. Like, and that's really only when I'm, like, at a fancy resort or, like, you know, if I'm. If I'm out traveling or something, I'm at a hotel that pretty much that's, like, the only place you get a massage is gonna be that price. But for the most part, when I go to, like, my local massage place, It'll be like 120 bucks.
- [06:18]
Matt
Okay. Do they. Do they give you the card where you get, like, 10 of them and.
- [06:20]
Yaneli Espinal
They, like, honestly, the number of free massages I've gotten, I kind of feel bad. I'm like, punch my card again.
- [06:26]
Matt
That's what I'm talking about. Oh, I love it. You're frequent flyer.
- [06:30]
Joel
You're like us. You want to be frugal while you're spending your money.
- [06:32]
Yaneli Espinal
Exactly. That's right.
- [06:33]
Matt
Yeah. Just because it's a splurge doesn't mean you shouldn't be kind of smart about it. You know, it's like, hey, still find a way to save some money here. But, you know, let's, let's kind of talk about your, your money history, and I just kind of like your personal history a little bit. You start your book talking about an interaction, maybe an altercation that you had with your sister. You were along with her, but what happened and what did you learn about money from sort of getting this, this head smack?
- [06:57]
Yaneli Espinal
Yeah, so I definitely got smacked by my sister in describing the book as like, she knocked on the top of my head. Like she would knock on a door, and my sister often did that. So I kind of grew up in an environment where it's, you know, tough love. Like, not that it was like extremely abusive or physically violent, but oftentimes get smacked around or like, you know, knuckles on the head. And so in this case, I was in the backyard, I was just sleeping, doing my chores, and my sister yelled out to me in the backyard, asking me where my mom had went. And I, you know, oftentimes mom would go in and out of the house. My mom was always, you know, at appointments at church or, you know, parent teacher conferences or whatever kind of related to kids or her own hobbies. But I honestly couldn't remember, like, where mom went. And so I was thinking, like, did she go to the doctor? Did she go to the post office? Like, I don't remember. And then, and then it hit me that she told me she was going to an appointment at the welfare office, which she called fetch au fait. And I, in my book, I specifically mentioned that term because I didn't know what it was. But later on as an adult, I saw on paper that she had a face to face appointment in order to renew her food stamps. And I, it just, I put two and two together and I was like, oh, oh. She had been trying to pronounce face to face, but she's, she's saying it with her thick Dominican accent, Fitch or Fae. But I put two and two together that she was going to an appointment at the welfare office. So I yelled that out at the top of my lungs in the backyard. And my sister was so upset at me that I would yell and tell everyone on our block the, you know, our personal business and to, you Know, put mom's business on blast like that. And so she was really mad at me. And I. While I didn't understand exactly why, you know, she was so upset, I knew that it had something to do with money. And the message, the clear message that I got from my sister, you know, during that incident was that, like, we don't talk about money. We don't tell people what we have, what we don't have. We don't tell our personal business like that. And talking about money is more taboo, and it's a private thing. So, you know, from a very young age, I think I was probably 8 or 9 years old when that happened. And I remember kind of being shushed and silenced around money.
- [08:53]
Joel
Yeah, I feel like that is maybe not exactly the way it played out for you, but that's. That's kind of a lesson that a lot of us learn in childhood. Right. Is that money is the taboo. It's not to be talked about. It's like I was telling Matt the other day, my oldest daughter, she said, dad, how much money do we have? Like. Like, for real overall? And you want to. You want to entertain those questions and have a discussion about you don't want. But a lot of parents want to shut that down. Right. And so, yeah, what's your take on, I guess, having money conversations, especially with kids? I don't think you have any of your own yet. But. But why is it so important to open up the conversation around money and inside of a home?
- [09:28]
Yaneli Espinal
Yeah, so actually, in that same section of the book, I talk about the reason why it's so important to talk about this at an early age. There was actually study conducted with college students, and it showed that parents who avoided talking about money predicted the worst type of problematic credit card usage among those college students. So they really, they looked at the experiment and they. They kind of broke down the students into groups of the parents who talked about money in a positive way, the parents who talked about money in a negative way, and the parents who avoided money talk, like, just never talked about money at all. And you would think that the parents who talked about money negatively would be the ones to pass down problematic, you know, money behaviors to their. But that was not the case. They were not nearly as bad as the problematic behavior demonstrated by the students whose parents never talked about money at all. So for me, like, and you're right, I don't have children of my own, but I'm the world's best auntie. I have 10 nieces and aunties. And, you know, I'VE helped them open Roth IRA race, custodial Rafael race. I fund their 529 plans for their birthdays every year. I mean, I'm very involved in sharing with them openly and talking with them about what I'm doing, why I'm doing it. And I think that as early as kids start to ask you for money or talk about money to you, that's the perfect opportunity at that age to start talking to them about, about the value of money, how hard it is to earn money, and what different things you can do with money. Because most kids think, oh, you have money, you can spend it. They don't realize you can spend, you can save, you can gift, you can invest. There's lots of different things that you can do with money. And those lessons can be imparted on kids as young as 3, 4, 5 years old.
- [10:53]
Matt
Absolutely. Yeah. And if you don't talk about it, you carry that stigma with you into your own adulthood. But aside from children, I mean, I think there's a lot of folks out there and they are not talking about money. How would you recommend for folks just to make this a part of not only their life and something that they're interested in, but to kind of get the ball rolling and talking about it with her friends?
- [11:13]
Yaneli Espinal
Yeah, I think with friends and family, depending on the relationship that you have, the specific relationship that you have, every relationship is different. Whether that's a friendship or, you know, a courtship, a romantic relationship, or, you know, mother, daughter relationship, every relationship is very. Is distinct and individual. So I would say think about the relationship that you're in that you're involved in and, and kind of match that vibe in that aura. Because it's really weird if you have a relationship that, you know, hasn't ever really trespassed those, you know, thresholds of talking about things a little, you know, personal or considered to be a little taboo. Then all of a sudden you just jump in one day at lunch like, all right, so let's, let's talk about money. You know, how much do you have in your 401k? What are your goals for retirement?
- [11:50]
Joel
Right.
- [11:51]
Yaneli Espinal
That it just seems so bizarre and out of place. It's not going to be well received. So I always tell people, lead with a story and lead from the heart. So a heartfelt story, I think, is the key to transitioning into any conversation point around money. That again, regardless of the nature of your relationship, a story can help with that. So in my case, talking about, my talking to my parents about retirement was, was tricky. Both you know, were not prepared for retirement. They still aren't even though they're in retirement. And their children, luckily they have nine children. So our big family has been able to pull together money to help them out. But having this conversation initially with them a few years before my dad retired was really tough because they're going to be defensive. They're going to feel hurt that we're talking about something that they clearly are under prepared for. And, you know, we don't want them to feel like we're blaming them or we're judging them or that, you know, this is their fault or that we're ashamed or disappointed. So what we did was I personally just told my siblings, let's just tell, tell them a story about a friend who has gone through a similar experience where their parents and fortunately for me, I had a friend who was literally dealing with a similar situation where.
- [12:55]
Matt
So you didn't have to lie and.
- [12:56]
Yaneli Espinal
Tell us, make up a false story.
- [12:59]
Matt
But let me tell you this parable, mom and dad.
- [13:02]
Yaneli Espinal
It wasn't a folk, though, I promise. It was a real friend. And that's why listening to podcasts like this, like this is so helpful because you're constantly listening to people's stories and listening to experiences from people that they're sharing on podcasts like this. So you feel free to use me, but I tell people all the time, just say a story. Listen. I was listening to a podcast. Podcast. I heard this girl in Ali. She was talking about her family and how her parents were not prepared for retirement, but they never really talked about it. And so when it was time for her parents to retire, the parents were assuming that the children were going to be funding their retirement every month and paying for everything. But the children didn't realize that was the expectation. So they weren't prepared financially to do that. And so there was this big clash and people weren't really on the same page in their family. And as you could imagine, that would lead to fighting and that could lead to a lot of, you know, miscommunication and, and all kinds of things. So instead of. It would have been smarter for them to talk about it way beforehand. So I'm thinking about how that might apply to our relationship, our family, our friendship, and how great it would be for us to start talking about these things now. Maybe look up a couple of questions that we could start with. And that way we prevent ourselves from repeating the types of mistakes that, you know, people like Inali have made because they just didn't talk about it before with, with Enough time that's so much less threatening.
- [14:09]
Joel
Right. That's such a great way to begin it as opposed to, like, where you at, like, what's going on with your money? And it really, it really opens up, I think the. So it gives somebody the ability, the room to have a conversation as opposed to feeling like they have to defend their position or give a full throated answer to exactly where they stand with.
- [14:27]
Matt
Their personal finances because their nine kids are staging an intervention.
- [14:30]
Joel
Right, Exactly.
- [14:31]
Yaneli Espinal
Yeah, we definitely did do that.
- [14:32]
Matt
We definitely did.
- [14:33]
Yaneli Espinal
But the thing is too, is that, like, everybody's gonna agree, everyone's going to agree that, yes, in that story, I should have started sooner, the family should have talked about this sooner, the expectations should have been made clear sooner. So it's really difficult for somebody to hear that and say, no, no, no, I don't want to talk to you about my money. Like, it's very. It's so visceral, it's so real that it's true. Most people don't. And when you come up with a story, when you start off the bat with a story like that, you automatically all start off on the same page. Of, yeah, we definitely want to prevent, you know, we don't want to repeat that. We don't want to do that. So let's be smarter. Let's start talking more, you know, ahead of time. And that's just an easy way to all get on the same page.
- [15:10]
Joel
Okay, so speaking of stories, let's go back to your story a little bit. You are no dummy. You went to, again, one of the finest institutions in higher education. You went to Brown University. I did, yeah. So you're a smarty pants. And for folks out there who might wonder how someone so smart could get into financial trouble. Tell us about that. Sometimes people think IQ equals good money habits, but no, there's a massive disconnect there, right?
- [15:34]
Yaneli Espinal
Yeah, there definitely is a disconnect. Because, I mean, I remember just really loving learning. I got so lucky in elementary school. And I had a core group of teachers who just made me love reading. They made me love learning through reading. And once I got past that point of, you know, feeling like reading was a chore and not wanting to read, like, I couldn't stop. I would be hiding under the covers of a flashlight reading my little babysitter's club books, and my mom would catch me and be like, you have to go to sleep. Give me the book. Like, so for me, loving learning started really, really early. But one of the things I noticed is that that Was I was only able to demonstrate that passion for learning in the academic courses that I had. I mean, going to school formally, you, You're. You have these specific classes on your roster and your schedule every year. And that's, you know, that was my time to shine. That was my opportunity to, you know, show my passion for learning and to perform right and excel academically. So because I took classes in, you know, science and social studies, English language arts, I took French, I took Spanish, I took art history, I took so many classes. But I never ever once got a class about money management. I never once got a class about personal finance. And so I felt when I got to college, I felt this pressure to fit in with all of these wealthier students that were around me that, you know, I really clearly was in a totally different lane from them. You know, my parents did not have the money to support me, to give me an allowance every week, or to, you know, support me in any kind of way financially. So I was working multiple jobs and, you know, to pay for my textbooks and my school supplies and buy my own laptop. And I just couldn't come up with the money quickly enough, no matter how many hours I worked. Like, working a minimum wage job at a pizzeria on campus, you know, it was impossible for me to come up with $1,800 within a week or two of the start of the semester. So I just went down campus one day on my way to work and, you know, saw somebody with a clipboard offering me to, you know, get a free T shirt if I signed up for the credit card. And of course, it was a student credit card, so it was specific for students to help you pay for your textbooks and your laptop. And it was the perfect pitch because I literally was going through trouble trying to figure out how I was going to come up with money to pay for all these things. So to me, it just was like, oh, the clouds were partying. Here was this woman with this clipboard. It was a magical clipboard. And all I had to do was fill out this paper and boom, I was gonna be able to solve my problems. And so I filled out the application, I got my free T shirt, I went on my way, and two weeks later, I had a shiny plastic credit card in my campus mailbox with my name on it. And I immediately maxed it out. I bought my laptop, I bought some textbooks, and I felt so good. Like, I felt so proud of myself doing that because I didn't have to bother anyone. I didn't have to call my sisters and brothers and ask them for. I didn't have to bother mom and dad knowing that they didn't have it and that I was only going to be adding to their burden because even if they said I don't have the money right now, I knew that my dad wouldn't stop thinking about it and he'd probably have to work extra and work harder and try to come up with money to give me because he wouldn't stop thinking about the fact that I needed money. So I didn't want to add any stress to my parents already existing burden. So I, you know, I got the credit card, I started using it first for things that I needed. And, and pretty quickly I realized just how easy it is for you to swipe that credit card and just buy whatever you want. So that's what I started doing. I just went to the mall and Providence Place mall, got all my money forever. 21 H&M. You know, I would go into shopping and buy clothes and shoes. And also it's, it's. I would say to the impact of growing up in poverty. Like every time I ask my mom for things or my dad for things, they would always tell me, no, no hay dinero. You know, there's no money for that. We don't have the money for you to get Jordans. We don't have the money for Nikes or for, you know, a name brand book bag or name brand coat. So I was constantly being told no that I couldn't get these things. So in college, having a credit card and feeling more pressure than ever to look a certain way and, you know, and wear certain brands, there was nobody there to tell me no. So I racked up $20,000 of credit card debt. By the time I graduated, about a year after my college graduation is when I finally sat down and add up all of my credit card debt that I had and one small student loan for study abroad program and it was just under $21,000. And that's when I kind of realized that I had it gotten out of control. I took it too far and I had a real problem that I needed to figure out some way somehow to solve it.
- [19:51]
Matt
I've heard you speak about this before too. And just how when you received that credit card, it felt like you were an official adult, right? Yes. And it's just interesting to kind of contrast that to the lack of formality that comes with actual financial education. And so. And granted, this is back before laws were changed and credit card companies were allowed to be on campus. But it's interesting how there truly is. And this is maybe an argument for some of this official sanctioned financial education that you're pushing for in schools that we'll talk about a little bit later on. But it's interesting how on one hand you had this, this formality, this card, sometimes to make them out of metal now to make it feel like you're even more important, this passport into adulthood. Yeah, true. In contrast to the fact that there was nothing on the syllabus, there was no sort of class that was outlined when you came. You're just thrown to the wolves to education. But so, yeah, so you had $20,000 a little over that actually. But what was it? Because I think there's a lot of folks out there who can continue down that path and they're not going to really change their behavior until they somehow see the light, until they are able to decide that, oh my gosh, like, what am I doing with my life? What caused that change in your life?
- [21:06]
Joel
What was the epiphany?
- [21:07]
Matt
Yeah. What was that point in time that caused you to want to completely up and how things were going? Going?
- [21:12]
Yaneli Espinal
Yeah, so, I mean, it was the. There was a book that I read which was Susie Orman's Women and Money. And before reading that book, I was sitting at my desk running up the numbers, like putting everything into a spreadsheet, adding everything up. Because I had gotten to the point where I just, I felt like an adult. I felt like I was winning at this hashtag adulting day. You know, I was doing everything to help my parents. Every now and then I would send them money to help them pay a bill. You know, I had my own apartment or I lived with a roommate, so I shared an apartment with a roommate. I had my full time job as a teacher, which my parents were so proud of me for becoming a professional. In their minds, there was really no difference between a doctor, a lawyer and a teacher. Growing up in their country, in their native country and Dominican Republic, when a person becomes, especially a woman, becomes a professional, working professional, that is the, you know, utmost level of respect for you in terms of a career path, just becoming a professional. And so growing up, I would always hear them say, combiertemprofessional, you know, become a professional, make us proud. So a teacher to them was just as much as me saying, I'm a doctor, I'm a lawyer, make a difference. And I wish I had understood the difference between the salary of a teacher and a lawyer and a doctor, because I may have, you know, thought a little bit More about what I, you know, what my kind of career field was right after college. But, you know, the moment came to me looking at my, my bills and I just started crying because I was like, okay, after I give mommy some money that she told me she needs. Plus I paid my rent, I paid off this minimums on my credit cards for this month. I paid my bills in my apartment, I bought a train pass, I bought some groceries, I pay my cell phone bill. Like, I literally have no money left. And it just doesn't make sense, right? Like they say on TikTok, the math ain't mathing. And I got, I got so frustrated that I was like, how is it possible that I went and got my, my bachelor's degree, my master's degree, went to one of the most prestigious schools, I got all these opportunities that my parents never got, and I'm still in this paycheck to paycheck cycle just like my parents. Like, it just didn't make sense. So I was just crying. And so I started pulling up everything and just trying to do the basic math. Like I'm running, putting everything into a spreadsh. How much actually do I owe? Why is it that I can't afford to pay for things? And that's when I saw my PDF credit card statement, which I had been opening that PDF every month and literally never scrolling past the first page. I would just look at the, the balance, the minimum due, and the due date. That's it. I didn't even look at anything past that. So I decided, okay, let me scroll past the first page. And you know, that was actually pretty enlightening. I saw a whole bunch of interest fees.
- [23:46]
Matt
What's this interest line?
- [23:47]
Yaneli Espinal
I was like, what is this? The total amount charged in interest for the year was in a little box all the way at the bottom on the last page of my statement. And that was a shock to me. It was thousands of dollars. I was like, wait, what the heck is going on? How is it possible that when I added up all the interest on my four different credit cards, it was thousands of dollars that I had given? I'm thinking that could have been in my savings account. I could have been giving that to mommy and Poppy. I could have been using that to do all kinds of stuff. It could have been here in my bank account right now to help me pay for stuff. So I just realized that interest fees were accruing very quickly. And I knew I didn't understand this thing called interest. So I actually, in that moment, I'm not even gonna Lie. I didn't know what to do. I was just so overwhelmed and frustrated. So I went to bed and like, maybe two days later after that experience, I was in a pharmacy. I was buying stuff at the Duane Reade and, you know, stuff that I would always buy after work, like, wasting my money. I was buying candles and lotion, trinkets. Whatever little stuff I would, I would pick up on my way home from work. And on the magazine rack, there was a book called Women and Money. And I was like, you know, I'm a woman. And I literally yesterday, just crying about money. Maybe this is one of those moments where the clouds are partying. So I just picked up the book and I started reading the first few pages while I was in line. And by the time I got to the front to pay, I just put the candles and lotions aside. I was like, I don't want that stuff. I want this book. And it was $9. And I tell people, people every chance I get. I'm like, that was the best $9 that I ever spent. Because that book opened my eyes to basics around money and just to change your relationship with money and the way you think about money, the way you treat money, physically lining up your bills and, and straightening them out in your wallet, making, you know, taking pride in the money that you've earned. Things that I never got, you know, thought it was never exposed to. And so I followed the debt repayment plan in that book and was able to pay off the debt in 18 months.
- [25:41]
Joel
Oh, man. I love it. I love it. That's so cool. Okay, so, yeah, we talked a little bit about the math. We also, there's. There's more to just getting your money right than just math, though. There's a lot of, like, mindset work that needs to take place and, and that doesn't necessarily take place overnight. We have some questions about that and more that we'll get to with Yanelli right after this. Tracking your spent well, it might seem daunting, but it's a crucial first step to taking control back. And that's because finances, they can be messy and confusing. Well, Monarch Money acts like your personal cfo, giving you full visibility and control so you can stop earning and start growing. Monarch has so much functionality, but the basic dashboard even is just one of my favorite features. You get your net worth, your goals, and crucial budgeting data all right there when you first log in.
- [26:32]
Matt
I love it. Start managing your finances to build the life you actually want. Without a clear financial pivot picture, financial dreams can just feel out of reach. Monarch makes managing money simple even for folks with busy lives. And it's great for couples as well. Financial stress. It's one of the top reasons relationships fall apart. Monarch makes money conversations easier. Track shared and individual accounts, set goals together and keep money check ins drama free.
- [26:56]
Joel
Get control of your overall finances with Monarch Money. Use code how to money@monimalmoney.com in your browser for half off your first year. That's 50% off your first year@monimalmoney.com with code how to Money Right now the headlines are chock full of data breaches and regulatory rollbacks, making us all vulnerable. But you can do something about it. Deleteme is here to make it easy, quick and safe to remove your personal data online. You want an easier way to deal with data breaches? Get Deleteme. The fact is we're all at risk, right? And how many times have you gotten an email or a letter saying that your data has been breached?
- [27:31]
Matt
That's right, yeah. So Deleteme, it's not just a one time service. It's always working for constantly monitoring and removing the personal information you don't want on the Internet. Whether we like it or not, if you have an online profile or presence, we're all essentially public figures. Which is why I'm a fan of Deleteme. To take care of all of that online hygiene so I don't have to. You know, you keep hearing about these data breaches in the news. I'm thinking about the recent Coinbase data breach. And then the data brokers, they vacuum up a lot of that data, creating a searchable profile about you. You sell it to whoever wants to pay for. Thankfully, if your data is exposed in a breach, Deleteme can help remove it from the data broker sites.
- [28:07]
Joel
Take control of your data and keep your private life private by signing up for Deleteme now at a special discount for our listeners today. Get 20% off your delete me plan by texting money to 64000. The only way to get 20% off is to text money to 64000. That's money to 64000 message and data rates Main Apply Running your own business hits different in the summer because we take more time off to be with our family. It means we have to be even more thoughtful ahead of time so things run smoothly. But just like having the right plan helps us to avoid podcast nightmares, well, you can ensure that you and the people you care for most are prepared for anything too. Trust and will makes estate Planning simple and secure so you can confidently create a will designate power of attorney, secure your digital assets and more. More. Visit trustandwill.com howtomoney to get 20% off their simple, secure and expert backed estate planning services.
- [29:04]
Matt
Yeah, when you're young and life is simple, getting a trust or will in place is not a high priority. But life gets more complicated when you start throwing kids into the mix. Once you add an investment property or two, once that's a part of the equation, I know I've got the peace of mind knowing that I've got this checked off my to do list. And you can too. Because Trust and Will's website is easy to use, it's simple to navigate. Plus all your information and documents are securely stored with bank level encryption. Each will or trust is state specific, it's legally valid and it's customized to your needs.
- [29:34]
Joel
Yeah, we can't control everything, but trust and will can help you take control of protecting your family's future. Trustandwill.com howtomoney and get 20% off. That's 20% off@trustandwill.com howtomoney.
- [29:51]
Matt
All right, we are back from the break, talking with Yanili Espinel and and let's talk about swimming against the current. Because one line that stuck out to me in your book was when you said that you thought you wanted some Jordans, you thought you wanted Uggs so that people would think that you had money. You wanted people to perceive you a certain way. This is less about putting together a debt plan. Right. Like this is less about the math. And I would say this is tougher to change. Can you speak to that for a second?
- [30:19]
Yaneli Espinal
For sure, actually. So the book came out at the end of May of 2023, and around that time I was listening to a bunch of podcasts. I tuned into your pod week, actually, and the episode that you all dropped, it was creepy to me. How similar that episode was to my second chapter of my book where I talk about swimming against the current. I mean, I think it was called overcoming your idiot brain.
- [30:39]
Joel
Oh yeah.
- [30:40]
Yaneli Espinal
So whoever's listening, if you haven't listened to that episode, go back to May of 2023 and pull that up because it was so great. Like the examples, even the language that you guys use was so similar, like fighting back. Like I talk about that in my book. I talk about how every day you get up and you're like a soldier and you have to get ready for battle because. Because at the moment you wake up and take your first breath like you're gonna start to see ads on social, ads on Spotify, ad on the bus. When you walk out of your house, you turn on the radio, oh, another ad. Everybody wants your money. And it's like this constant game of whack a mole with a bunch of money hungry moles. And so I put that in my book because I truly feel like that is why your brain is your first priority when it comes to money. Before saving and budgeting and understanding your income and your cash flow, before any of that stuff, the brain is number one. And so I talk about swimming against the current in the book because I feel like for a lot of people, once you learn the math stuff, the math is the easy part because there's calculators online to automate that math stuff for you. You don't have to be able to understand the compounding formula. You just pull up a compound interest calculator and it does the math for you. So the math is really the easy part, but the hard part is the social stuff. Feeling like you're not cool enough if you don't have, you know, the latest gadgets, if you don't have, you know, the nicest apartment, if you don't have the latest sneakers or the latest purse or whatever it, that everybody around you is posting and talking about. If you don't have it, you feel you fall prey to this invisible force around you that's making you feel like you're never cool enough, you're not ever going to be good enough. And in order for you to succeed financially and kind of fight back against a lot of that stuff, you really have to, you know, do your own thing, you have to swim against the current and you have to kind of decide that it's. Even though it feels unnatural for so many of us to try to go against a lot of that, you know, whatever's common and popular, that's the, the only way that you're actually gonna be able to make decisions about what you really want your money to do for you and not what you've been brainwashed to think that you should do with your money. So, you know, for me, I think that's a huge part. And, and you know, for me, that's why I dedicated the whole second chapter of the book. It's called get your mind right. Because I really think before you even get into the money stuff, you really gotta start understanding these biases that you fall prey to when you're making choices with your money and what you can do to fight back against those, those Biases.
- [32:54]
Joel
And you say that community is a big part of that too, right? So, like, who you surround yourself with, because it feels like they're these, like, flaming arrows aimed at us all the time, trying to get us to part from our money. And if we don't put on that kind of armor to protect ourselves, we're going to fork it over. So how does community and who you like, your friends, your family, who you hang out with, how does that impact your ability to be kind of resilient to those. To those calls, to those advertisers who are trying to part you from that hard earned money?
- [33:22]
Yaneli Espinal
No, I love this question, because for me, I'm gonna tell you the truth. My family was not really on board with, you know, they saw what I was doing and they said it was a little too drastic, because it's true. I was. I was. I was super frugal. Like, once I realized what was happening with my money, I was not playing games. I was like, I'm so serious. It's just like committing to getting an A plus in my physics class. Like, I was like, yeah, I was on a mission. Exactly. So, you know, if we would go out, I would only order something, like a very small thing in my budget, and everybody would be trying to split the. I'd be like, nope, no splitting bills over here. I'm getting my own separate check. I only.
- [33:55]
Joel
I'm drinking water. I didn't have the margarita you guys had, right?
- [33:57]
Yaneli Espinal
I'm like, if I'm. Unless I'm mistaken, this water with a lemon slice was free. So I'm. So. I just was very, very frugal. And I think they started to see that. And they were maybe like, a little judgmental at first, but I knew right away that my family, because after I told them about, like, the books that I had been reading and the blogs that I was reading and the podcast I was listening to and these ideas that I had been exposed to, they. They all just thought, like, it's a little too drastic and it's a bit too much. And it got to the point where honest siblings were just telling me to shut up. They were like, we don't care about the new maximum on your Roth IRA increasing by 500 this year. We don't. We don't care about that stuff. That's your thing. And so then I was like, okay, fine. So I decided I'm gonna go online because obviously I'm not gonna change my family. I'm not gonna cancel my family. Like, I love these people, and I Just have to accept that.
- [34:45]
Joel
Get on board or get out of my life, you know. You ain't gonna do that.
- [34:47]
Yaneli Espinal
I would not. I was like, come on, I love these people, but if I can't convince them that this is the most important thing for us, then I'm just gonna to have to show them and not tell them. So what I did was I kind of just did my own thing. Instead of subtracting people out of my life, I didn't do that. I just added, added a bunch of people into my mindset, into my life to my news feed on social media. I started following a bunch of people and starting to follow hashtags and just start to look at all the content and listen to more podcasts and just really immerse myself into this space of personal finance, financial independence and debt repayment and you know, all these debt free communities, all this, all this stuff online, which, you know, for me helped me to feel like I had another family. I had this other community outside of like the people that I see every day and hug and kiss when I'm, you know, together with them. It doesn't have to be the physical people in your life. It might not be. And that's okay. For me, it wasn't. But I still was able to go online and feel like I knew these people that, you know, were kind of like, you know, influences on me in terms of my mindset and helping me with resources and things. But I never met really any of them until honestly recently with, which is wild for me to say that I've now worked with so many of those creators who were early influences on me. You know, I met Mr. Money Mustache, I met Peter at Fincon. You know, I've met so many incredible speakers. I met Tiffany the Budget Nista at a conference for women. And just so many of these amazing early influences in my life I've been able to meet and tell them, thank you so much. Like, you are the reason why I completely changed the trajectory of my life and my future generations lives because, because I started to, you know, get serious about my money. So, you know, just really quickly, if that's not people that you love right now that you see every day, that you hang out with your friends, your family, your, your spouse, your partner, that is okay. Show them. Don't feel like you have to tell them because they might not be ready to hear it, but when they see it, they can't deny it.
- [36:39]
Matt
That's, that's some good advice right there.
- [36:41]
Joel
Quick plug for the how to Money Facebook group. Because that's truly 10,000 plus people who are helping each other out and really want to get better with, with their money. And it's this hive mind. But it's also this group where there's so much support that goes alongside of it.
- [36:53]
Yaneli Espinal
I gotta join. I love that.
- [36:54]
Joel
Yeah. I mean, that's what we need, right? We need the information combined with the atta boys, atta girls, like, you can do it. You got this. And I think that two pronged approach is just, it's crucial and it really helps a lot of people succeed. You need that motivation. If there's nobody physically in your life, you need that. That's the beauty of an online community.
- [37:11]
Matt
It's one of the few upsides to social media as we are learning more and more about the downside. Yeah, you kind of were talking about how you went pretty hard in the frugal direction. Like, what are some of the more extreme things that you may have done to save money to get ahead? Because I think at some point in the book you mentioned something about eyebrow threading.
- [37:32]
Yaneli Espinal
I was just thinking about that.
- [37:33]
Matt
Yeah. Can you talk some about that or.
- [37:35]
Joel
Tell me what that is?
- [37:35]
Matt
Maybe some of the other measures.
- [37:37]
Yaneli Espinal
Two things that I did that were extreme. First was like beauty maintenance routine and stuff with being a girl, there's a lot of stuff. And I know that there are guys out there who also put a lot of time and effort and money into grooming. But it's just different with girls because of the pink tax. We are targeted products and things that are so much more expensive to stay beautiful and to look, you know, whatever. And for me, a lot of that was, you know, maintaining my appearance, so getting haircuts, getting my nails done and doing my eyebrows, which for many years I was. I would go like every two weeks and spend eight to 12 to get my eyebrows waxed, you know, and it hurts. I'm not gonna lie. You get used to it after a while, but it's just part of. It's the name of the game. You want to be pretty on your first date, you want to look nice, you got, you got to put the money down to, you know, keep up with your beauty routine. And so, so when I got really serious about my budget, I was like, okay, this is what I have. This is what I'm gonna spend money on. This is what I don't have. This what I can't put money towards. And so I remember one time I was with my family and my sisters, because I'm one of five sisters. There's Nine of us total, but four are brothers and the other four are sisters. So one of five sisters. And my sisters were. They were just dogging me, like, making fun of me, you know, roasting me, which is their way of showing tough love, I'll say that. But still, it still hurts. They were just, like, dogging me, like, oh, you look like Frida Kahlo. Because my eyebrows. My eyebrows were.
- [38:54]
Joel
That is harsh. That's harsh. Come on.
- [38:55]
Matt
Come on.
- [38:56]
Joel
Come on.
- [38:57]
Matt
Look that bad?
- [38:57]
Joel
Nobody. Come on.
- [38:58]
Yaneli Espinal
They had not been done for a couple months. I'm not gonna lie. So I was like, well, you know, I was trying to tweet them on my own, but I don't really know how to do it. I don't want to mess them up and whatever. And they're like, just go spend the money. And I'm like, well, I. I can't, because I promised myself I was not gonna use my credit cards again until I paid them off. And I don't have the $12 in my budget because every. Every dollar had a job, and it was not my eye. So, you know, I just kind of went home that night, and I'm thinking about them making fun of me, and I'm like, all right, let me. Let me see if I can just figure out a way to do my own eyebrows. It can't be that hard. So I went on YouTube and I started looking up how to do your own eyebrows, and a video came up about threading your eyebrows, which I had done one time, or I had had it done one time for my sweet 16 party. My sister took me to a place in Manhattan where they threaded my eyebrows. It was, like, very traditional Indian eyebrow thread in place. So I always thought, like, that's something that if you don't. If that's not in your culture, you don't know how to do it. You're gonna, like, rip your eyebrows off your face. So don't even try to do that, you know? But there was this tutorial on YouTube, and it was. It made it seem pretty simple. You didn't have to, like, use your mouth with the thread, which is what often the traditional way to do it looks like. So you could just, like, make one thread loop and cross it over, like, in the form of an X. And so I started practicing it until I was like, okay, I think I could. I think I learned how to, like, control which hairs. I will pluck the thread. And so then I did my own eyebrows. And funnily enough, now I do my sister's eyebrows even Though they were making fun of me. I do my mom's eyebrows. I do my sister in law. A lot of my girlfriends be like, can you do my eyebrows between visits? Like, I just need a touch up and my nieces will have me do their eyebrows. So it's funny because I was just, I was really committed to my frugal, like my tight budget. So much so that I wasn't willing to put a $12 eyebrow charge on my credit card because I promised myself I wasn't gonna use it.
- [40:43]
Joel
Yeah, no, I love that that's. You mentioned, like that's a resolve, right, to say no. To say no to things and to find a solution outside of it, to get a little creative. I think, Matt, that reminds me of when you did your wife's hair at some point. What was it called? The.
- [40:57]
Matt
Oh, balayage. Balayage. The layering.
- [41:00]
Joel
Matt trained himself. He learned.
- [41:01]
Matt
He watched a bunch of YouTube videos, like in Nelly. I watched a few YouTube videos because.
- [41:05]
Joel
It'S like a really expensive way to get your hair done. Hundreds of dollars.
- [41:08]
Yaneli Espinal
Yes.
- [41:08]
Matt
Well, speaking of, dude, maybe I should start my own salon because I've cut your. You know, I could.
- [41:11]
Joel
Maybe you and Yanelli should partner together. Start your own thing. Right?
- [41:14]
Yaneli Espinal
This is a personal finance in the making right here.
- [41:16]
Joel
For real. Exactly. Oh, y', all. I'll just come in and get some work done, but I won't be a part of it.
- [41:22]
Matt
Hang out.
- [41:22]
Joel
Yeah, no, but I love that. I think that that, that says so much and it's. It's so important to, to be willing to say no to things, even if it's in an ideal world. Hey, at some point I'll get, I'll get there and I'll be able to go splurge on that, but not until I've actually got that. The cash in hand to be able to do it.
- [41:40]
Yaneli Espinal
That's right.
- [41:40]
Joel
I've got another question for you, Nelly. We've, Matt and I, we've talked on the show before. There's a lot of actually data about how second generation immigrants tend to succeed. More than. More than first generation immigrants and more than people. More than Americans who are fourth, fifth generation. They tend to realize the American dream more than any other cohort. Do you have any insight as a second generation immigrant as to what the secret sauce is there? Like what is the. Yeah. What's involved and why is it that second generation immigrants really live the American dream more than the rest of us?
- [42:12]
Yaneli Espinal
Yeah, I mean, I would say this, I would say that this is anecdotal. Obviously, because I don't have any studies to source. But I will say there is this emotional connection, this psychological, deeply seated mentality of a combination of the gratitude that you have for the efforts that your parents have put into immigrate to a whole new country. They left their entire life behind, everyone they knew and loved. They left it in their native country to come here with the sole purpose of giving you, their child a better opportunity than the one that they had. And they worked unforgiving immigrant jobs and worked unforgiving hours. And when I say the word sacrifice is so underrated in immigrant community, I mean truly, it is the ultimate sacrifice to leave your comfort, your loved ones, everything you know, your way of life, for your children to have better opportunities. It makes me want to cry right now as I talk about it because I know that my mom and dad made that ultimate sacrifice for me, for me and my siblings. And so when I think about that, there's something psychological happening there that is, it's so powerful that you feel you have to, you do not have a choice but to make their sacrifice worthwhile. And that means that you have to succeed. You have to find a way to succeed, whether it's through the very traditional pathway of going to college and getting, you know, your job and having a successful career path, a more traditional way, or whether it's an alternative to the four year college pathway and you know, join the military or becoming an entrepreneur or, you know, whatever that pathway looks like. It doesn't have to be that cookie cutter, perfect for your college degree type of pathway, but whatever it is that you do, you're doing it with a certain level of grit and resilience that is near to impossible to plant into someone if they don't naturally have it. And I think a lot of children of immigrants naturally have it because they've witnessed that ultimate sacrifice that their parents have made. And they're just trying their hardest to, you know, give their parents that ability to say, to feel that sense of gratitude and pride for their children.
- [44:17]
Matt
That's so true. That being said, so you are a second gen immigrant and you have that resolve. A lot of folks, they don't have that either gumption or that grit to figure things out on their own.
- [44:30]
Joel
We did a whole episode about grit, by the way, how that was like the number one ingredient in getting better with money and how you kind of have to like figure out how to get it.
- [44:36]
Matt
Yanieli could have like co hosted that episode, I'm sure, but a bit a big part of Getting ahead with your finances is knowing the right stuff. In fact is there are a lot of folks who don't have that drive to figure it out. And sometimes it does need to be presented in a more formal manner. And we're actually going to talk more about financial literacy and some of the things that Yannelli is doing to make this more accessible across our country. We'll get to that right after this.
- [45:07]
Joel
Tracking your spending, well, it might seem daunting, but it's a crucial first step to taking control back. And that's because finances that can be messy and confusing. Well, Monarch money acts like your personal cfo, giving you full visibility and control so you can stop earning and start growing. Monarch has so much functionality, but the basic dashboard even is just one of my favorite features. You get your net worth, your goals and crucial budgeting data all right there when you first log in.
- [45:34]
Matt
I love it. Start managing your finances to build the life you actually want. Without a clear financial picture, financial dreams can just feel out of reach. Monarch makes managing money simple even for folks with busy lives. And it's great for couples as well. Financial stress. It's one of the top reasons relationships fall apart. Monarch makes money conversations easier. Track shared and individual accounts, set goals together and keep money check ins and drama free.
- [45:58]
Joel
Get control of your overall finances with Monarch Money. Use code howtomoney@monatormoney.com in your browser for half off your first year. That's 50% off your first year at monarchmoney.com with code howtomoney. Right now the headlines are chock full of data breaches and regulatory rollbacks, making us all vulnerable. But you can do something about it. Delete Me is here to make it easy, quick and safe to remove your personal data online. You want an easier way to deal with data breaches? Get Deleteme. The fact is we're all at risk, right? And how many times have you gotten an email or a letter saying that your data has been breached?
- [46:33]
Matt
That's right. Yeah. So Deleteme, it's not just a one time service. It's always working for you. Constantly monitoring and removing the personal information you don't want on the Internet. Whether we like it or not, if you have an online profile or presence, we're all essentially public figures. Which is why I'm a fan of delete me to take care of all of that online hygiene so I don't have to. You know, you keep hearing about these data breaches in the news. I'm thinking about the recent Coinbase data breach and Then the data brokers, they vacuum up a lot of that data, creating a searchable profile about you. You sell it to whoever wants to pay for it. Thankfully, if your data is exposed in a breach, Delete Me can help remove it from the data broker sites.
- [47:08]
Joel
Take control of your data and keep your private life private by signing up for Deleteme now at a special discount for our listeners today. Get 20% off your DeleteMe Me plan by texting money to 64000. The only way to get 20% off is to text money to 64000. That's money to 64000. Message and data rates may apply. Running your own business hits different in the summer because we take more time off to be with our family. It means we have to be even more thoughtful ahead of time so things run smoothly. But just like having the right plan helps us to avoid podcast number nightmares, well, you can ensure that you and the people you care for most are prepared for anything too. Trust and Will makes estate planning simple and secure. So you can confidently create a will designate power of attorney, secure your digital assets and more. Visit trustandwill.com howtomoney to get 20% off their simple, secure and expert backed estate planning services.
- [48:06]
Matt
Yeah, when you're young and life is simple, getting a trust or Will in place is not a high priority. But life gets more complicated complicated when you start throwing kids into the mix. Once you add an investment property or two, once that's a part of the equation. I know I've got the peace of mind knowing that I've got this checked off my to do list. And you can too. Because Trust and Will's website is easy to use, it's simple to navigate. Plus all your information and documents are securely stored with bank level encryption. Each will or trust is state specific, it's legally valid and it's customized to your needs.
- [48:36]
Joel
Yeah, we can't control everything, but trust and will can help you take control of protecting your family's future. Trustandwill.com howtomoney and get 20% off. That's 20% off@trustandwill.com howtomoney all right, we're back. We're still talking how to get the financial freedom with Yanneli Espinal. Her story just incredible. And so we're so glad to have her here. And Yanneli, it's not just about like how far she's come, it's about what she's doing to help others succeed as well. And you know I love your Mission. I love what you do, what you're doing with so many hours of your work weeks to make sure that other kids, like, we're talking hundreds of thousands, if not millions of kids around the country to succeed in the future, not just, not just your 10, you know, nieces and nephews. Like, we're talking. Your impact is being heard around the nation. And so let's talk about your work with next gen personal finance and trying to bring financial literacy to the masses, mainly. Mainly high schoolers. Like, why is that such a passion of yours?
- [49:39]
Yaneli Espinal
Yeah, I mean, it's such a passion of mine because as I mentioned a little earlier, I know that if I had had a formal academic course on money management, I would have, you know, I would have had a completely different mindset. And I think it would have really prevented me from making so many of the mindless, reckless mistakes that I made with money in college. And I feel like everyone deserves a fair shot in order to, you know, really be able to thrive financially or even to just get the basics. When I was in my master's program for education, I remember learning about the original intent behind creating a public school system in America. And it was called the great equalizer. It was to give everyone, no matter what your zip code, your family background, your ethnic origin, no matter where you come from, that when you step into this public school building, you all have an equal opportunity for success. You get the equal. You get an equal education, you understand everything equally so that when you come, you exit, you know, everyone, then kind of, you're on equal footing, right, to then move forward. Now, obviously, that's like this idealistic utopia world where, yes, we're all equal when we leave school, what happens at home is of greater impact on your life than what's happening at school. But at the very least, if you're intending to prepare students so that they can get a job one day and have some type of income so they can, you know, have security for their family, then there should be a class teacher teaching you what the best practices are around what to do when that money comes, when that first paycheck hits. So it's so odd to me, after being a student for decades in our public school system, going off to a very prestigious college, getting a master's degree, coming back to New York City, becoming a teacher in that very public school system that I attended as a child, as a student, now being on the other side in front of the classroom, seeing that the curriculum still didn't include any financial literacy, it just felt like. Like Okay, I could continue to impact my 30 to 40 kids every year. I could even create content on YouTube and affect, you know, a couple million people who subscribe to my channel if I grow really big. But my impact will still be limited versus if I am able to change the laws and make sure that every single teenager, before they turn 18 and graduate high school, is required to take a full semester, 18 week course diving into money management and personal finance, then no matter what future generation, your children, your children's children, children's children's children are going to be able get this because of my efforts. And that's the kind of impact I was looking to get done in my work. Not just this surface level impact through being a social media creator or being a teacher. Like I'm a. I will have always been the type of person who prioritizes being of service to others. And I get that from my mom. She's so, so giving and always trying to be of service. But I wanted the service to really be the highest impact type of service possible.
- [52:19]
Matt
So what's interesting is like, there are even some like pretty great folks in the personal finance space who actually question the necessity of some of these different classes. And so, you know, and I kind of get it because you even just said yourself what happens at home. It is even more formational in the minds and in the lives of children. But like, what would you say to someone out there who is questioning the effectiveness of a single personal finance class in high school?
- [52:43]
Joel
We've seen more and more of it and it's really disappointing to see people in the personal finance space who know the value of the education say, oh, we don't need it in high school. We don't. When it's a subject that touches every single one of our lives, every day of our lives in perpetuity, essentially.
- [52:57]
Matt
I guess what I'm asking, what's your argument against? Well, they should just learn it on their own, whether it's by, from their parents or maybe they should just learn it from a book or from a podcast.
- [53:05]
Yaneli Espinal
Right, okay. Well, actually recently I was on TikTok and I saw a Ramit Sethi video. Ramit Sethi, if you don't already know him, I'm sure you know him. His book's awesome. I would teach you to be rich. His show on Netflix, how to get Rich. Amazing. Now I reached out to him and, and I said, hey, I. And I, this is like an Instagram dm. I said, hey, I've committed to changing your mind about financial education. And I'M so serious. I am going to show you the latest research and the movement for 21st century relevant financial education. I love your work and I've always plugged you. You can see that from how many times I've tagged you. But man, this is the number one hot take where you are wrong and I want to help you get on the right side of the fight. He responded to me and said, I'm open to reading the research. And so I sent him the research. He said, thank you reading these. So he, you know, it's funny because Ramit posted this where he talked about, you know, why he doesn't support financial education. And it kind of went viral very quickly, obviously because he's so well known. But he said, you know, who's going to teach it? If the banks are going to create the curriculum and we can't even agree on basic fundamental truths in this country, how are we going to agree on personal finance? And then he said, kids don't care about learning about money. So I want to address those points.
- [54:10]
Joel
First of all, I think he was wrong on all accounts.
- [54:12]
Yaneli Espinal
I told him, I said, you're wrong. I got to get you on the.
- [54:14]
Joel
Wrong side of the account. Every single reason that he gave, I was like, like, dude, you're way off.
- [54:18]
Yaneli Espinal
Wrong dude, right? And love or me. But I told him, I was like, I got to bring you over to the, to our side. You got to be on the right side of the fight. So, all right, let's address them, each one who's going to teach it. First of all, he said overburdened high school teachers are going to teach it. I can tell you right now through my work at ngpf, it is a free nonprofit organization. So free curriculum, free teacher training. There's over 70,000, close to 80,000 teachers across the country who are accessing the free materials. So this is not curriculum that's created by a bank. The way he mentioned where it's like pushing the bank branding or logo on materials. This is all free, not for profit. It is all literally like 21st century up to date online materials. And we have over 80,000 teachers, close to 80,000 teachers who've created an account so that they can access the materials for free. What will they take away? What will students take away? There are national personal finance standards for financial literacy education created by Jumpstart as well as the Council for Economic Education. States can either choose to adopt those standards and teach those topics, or they could create different own state specific standards for financial literacy education and use their own State specific standards. That's up to the state because in education it's very much local control. In our country, this is not a federal issue that the president can just wave a magic wand and say everyone is required to now learn personal finance in high school. It's a state by state, local issue. So every state has to dictate what it looks like and how that happens. How are they going to get trained? We offer free teacher training at ngpf. Again, not for profit. So it's not now. We're not pushing anything. There's absolutely no agenda. The co founders created an endowment fund. One of our co founders, Tim Ranzetta, created an endowment fund after having a lot of success as an entrepreneur. He decided this is going to be the thing that he wants to champion. This is where he wants to make change and leave a legacy. And so he created an endowment fund with tens of millions of dollars so that we would never run out of money and be able to continue to provide teachers with free, high quality training and free curriculum materials, as well as advocacy resources. And this is how I'm able to do my job. And this is how so many teachers are able to, able to teach with confidence. Topics like investing, topics like budgeting, like banking, like, you know, things that are developing that they never knew about, like buy now, pay later, or cryptocurrency. We're at the front forefront, the front lines, like teaching these teachers the cutting edge information so that they're ready to teach it and pass it on to their students. So no banks and all that kind of stuff. The thing he said about disagreeing on basic fundamental truths in this country is actually not a lie. That's true. There's a lot of divisiveness and depending, you know, money is political and there are a lot of people that disagree with, you know, issues in personal finance. The reason why that doesn't really affect this though is because I have literally went, I've gone from Florida where we passed SB 1054 in 2021. The law was successfully passed in Florida, later passed in Georgia, then went up to Michigan, was passed in Michigan and also passed in Connecticut.
- [56:59]
Joel
Yeah, Connecticut recently.
- [57:00]
Yaneli Espinal
Yeah, yeah. So since Florida, since my work Florida, it's gone. Iowa, Georgia, Michigan, Kansas, New Hampshire, West Virginia, Indiana, Minnesota, and the most recent being In May of 2023, Connecticut, with Louisiana following shortly after in, I wouldn't say early June 2023. So what we're looking at is this momentum and this wave of regardless if that state is considered a red state or a blue state. Or who the sponsors who championed it are, or if the governor is a Democratic governor or a Republican governor. When we look at Florida and, and Michigan, two states with governors that couldn't be more opposite, both of those states signed the exact same financial literacy legislation. So when you say, oh, we can't agree. We can agree that personal finance is a fundamental skill set that every student needs and deserves.
- [57:45]
Joel
And it's true that money has political elements, but it's also true that a ton of personal finance can and should be and should remain apolitical.
- [57:53]
Yaneli Espinal
Absolutely. And unbiased. 100% agree.
- [57:56]
Joel
And when it comes to the education that's taking place in, in high schools, we actually, it reminds me of one of our earliest interviews. We talked with this guy, Dan LaSalle. He was a vice president.
- [58:04]
Yaneli Espinal
I love Dan. I'm actually the president of his board for Niece Clinic.
- [58:07]
Joel
I mean, Dan is one of our favorite, our favorite guests we've ever had because he took this outside of the box approach to teaching kids and actually finding ways to attach work to income and then putting money in these kids hands so that they could actually not just learn the principles, but then put them into action. And so it's practical. I feel like people like you and Dan are on the front lines of this, of this fight and we, we support you all the way. And anybody who says that personal finance education in school is a waste of time doesn't know what they're talking about.
- [58:36]
Yaneli Espinal
Not only do they not know what they're talking about, but they haven't been inside of a school recently. I can tell you that because if I, I go into these schools consistently and frequently for my work and the students light up. When, when I hear people say kids don't care about learning personal finance until it's relevant to them, I'm like, do you know what it's like to be 16 years old and get your driver's license and actually be looking for a car loan and comparing car loan car insurance rates. Do you know what it's like to be 17 and want to open your first custodial roth that rate? Because you just got your first job and you're excited and you want to learn about this and not have any adult in your life or class in school teaching you about these things?
- [59:08]
Joel
It's practical and life changing and it's.
- [59:10]
Yaneli Espinal
Applicable immediately when you are a junior or senior in high school. So if you're about to fill out your FAFSA form and you're learning it and then you go do it right away, how can something be more applicable and more immediately beneficial than that? So I just think when people talk about these things, it's usually the people who are the furthest away from the actual classrooms, who are the least qualified to talk about this, that are the loudest.
- [59:32]
Joel
Yeah. No, you're so true. Spot on. And there's a whole lot of other things that we forget that we learned in high school. And this is one of those things.
- [59:40]
Matt
That you're gonna remember.
- [59:41]
Joel
You're gonna remember a buzz, and even. Even if you don't put it in action right away, you're gonna be like years later, you're like, wait a second. I heard compound. Oh, yeah. Okay, that's that.
- [59:48]
Yaneli Espinal
Let me go look. Yes, that's right.
- [59:50]
Joel
You're gonna hear one other thing. It's gonna trigger something.
- [59:52]
Matt
And there's a big difference between learning these things at third and fourth grade versus, like, what you're saying in high school when it's immediately applicable. And that's what we're talking about here. I don't know of any teenager who's entering adulthood who isn't concerned at all about money. It's something that they want more of. And so teaching them how to handle it properly, I think needs to happen. Yanelli, we are so glad that you. That this is a charge, a movement that. That you're leading 30 more states to go.
- [60:19]
Joel
Yes.
- [60:20]
Matt
We're so close. But your book, your book, mind you'd money, that's a part of this as well. For anybody who just wants to learn more and who isn't getting this kind of information at their school, where can folks learn more about you and find your book?
- [60:33]
Yaneli Espinal
Yes. So if you want to follow along with me on social media, it's missbehelpful. That's anywhere. Facebook, Instagram, Twitter, TikTok, missbehelpful. M I, s, S B E. Helpful. And then for all things related to my book, a chapter list, details about it, buying it, mindyourmoneybook.com awesome.
- [60:49]
Joel
Yaneli, thanks so much for joining us. We really appreciate it.
- [60:51]
Yaneli Espinal
Thank you, guys. This is great.
- [60:52]
Joel
All right, Matt, you gotta love. You gotta love Yanelia.
- [60:55]
Matt
So good. Such a good conversation.
- [60:57]
Joel
What an interesting story. What a. And just someone who puts their money where their mouth is. Like, she is living the life and putting into action all the things she believes on a big scale. So love what she's up to. What was your big takeaway from this conversation?
- [61:14]
Matt
She shared a lot about her own personal story. Right. And what I loved was when she was talking about specifically how to get family or friends on board. And she was essentially. She said, like, don't tell them about it necessarily, but show them. And she was talking about how you kind of start with the heart, you share a story with them. Essentially. What I was gathering from that was that she. What it's important to do is to be vulnerable. And I think when you are able to do that, you're able to kind of maybe tear down any defenses that there might be with whoever it is that you're trying to talk about money with. So, yeah, that's my quick takeaway. Be vulnerable if you're trying to talk to others about personal finances.
- [61:51]
Joel
But yeah, find. Find new friends. Don't ditch your old ones, but find some new ones if you need some. Some other, like, advice and encouragement.
- [61:59]
Matt
Yeah, I think that's the silver lining to social media, which there's not a whole lot of bright sides to social media. That totally is one.
- [62:06]
Joel
And you don't want to cancel people in your life, whether they have different political views, different money views, whatever it is, for any reason. But, yeah, you also might need to find. Find people who are supportive of you in this new endeavor if you're trying to get your money together too. One of the things she said at one point, Matt, she said every dollar had a job when she was talking about her budget and she was talking about the resolve to ensure that, like, she didn't put any purchases on that credit card while she was paying it off. And I think that mental fortitude is a switch part. Yeah. Of actually being able to get the job done and getting straight with your money, getting digging yourself out of the hole so you can start to kind of build the mountain to move forward. And so, yeah, I love that she had that, like, that fortitude to say, not even a $12 charge goes on this credit card. I'm gonna do without. And I think that's for people who are in a hole right now. It's. We're not all deprivation mentality. That's not. That's not our jam. But for some people at certain places in their personal finance journey, deprivation is necessary right in to order order to, for a time, be able to juice your ability to make progress. That's what Yaneli did. And now guess what? If she wants to, she go get that massage every single week if she wants, which is great because she's made so much progress. So I think it's just important for people to hear. It's like it doesn't have to be all deprivation all the time, but Sometimes for a period. It's going to take a little more of that intentional effort and a little bit of saying no to yourself. The things that you want and diying it, figuring out a way to get around it. Be creative.
- [63:31]
Matt
There are still ways that you can do it. Yeah. It's not just about the dollars and cents and the money that she was able to save, but it's also just a mindset thing and how she was able to prove to herself, not only to herself, but also to her family, that, like, no, no, no, I'm not playing like this is something that I'm going to get after. And it takes sometimes a principled stand like that in order to move the needle. But, Joel, let's talk about the beer you and I enjoyed during this episode. This was a code breaker, a West Coast IPA by Trademark Brewing. What were your thoughts on this one, buddy?
- [64:00]
Joel
Never had anything by this brewery before. Yeah, I thought it was really good.
- [64:03]
Matt
Yeah.
- [64:04]
Joel
West Coast IPAs are not typically my fave, but I really like this one. It was like with you, maybe somewhat dank.
- [64:10]
Matt
It was.
- [64:11]
Joel
But it wasn't as bitter. It wasn't.
- [64:12]
Matt
A little more juicy, perhaps?
- [64:14]
Joel
Yeah, yeah, yeah, good. Middle of the road, West Coast. Not too hard in that direction.
- [64:18]
Matt
Yeah. So we've been drinking a lot of East Coast New England hazies. And one of the great things about West Coast IPAs, you don't have to worry about the sediment.
- [64:25]
Joel
You know, that's true.
- [64:27]
Matt
You and I, actually, this wasn't even even on the show.
- [64:29]
Joel
This.
- [64:29]
Matt
You and Emily, the family came over and we're enjoying a beer and it had a decent amount of sediment. And so I was kind of swirling the can ups that way. We both. Because a lot of times it's that hop bite that you find in that sediment. It's like hop bits. I don't know.
- [64:45]
Joel
It's like eating a little bit of a pepper, like a hot pepper, you know, and you just get that concentrate.
- [64:49]
Matt
Swirling it, making sure that you and I both have this equal amounts of sediment, because that's flavor. But you ain't got to worry about that when it comes to a West coast ipa. You pour it perfectly, perfectly clear, delicious, refreshing. This one specifically had some stone fruit. I see. Which I feel like definitely stood out as we were enjoying it. But yeah, glad you and I got to enjoy a trademark beer. But Joe, that's going to be it for this episode. We'll make sure to link to some of the different resources we talked about and specifically where you can learn more about Yaneli find her book and if.
- [65:17]
Joel
You'Re a teacher, you can link. Oh yeah, we'll link to some of those next gen personal finance resources. They are at the forefront of encouraging and promoting financial literacy in schools and you might be able to partner with Ianneli to bring financial education to your state. If you're a teacher, you can advocate for that, which is cool.
- [65:35]
Matt
So there is real momentum behind what it is that they're doing. But buddy, that's going to be it for this episode. Until next time, Best friends out. Best friends out.
- [65:59]
Joel
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- [66:28]
Yaneli Espinal
Join iHeartRadio and Sarah Spain in celebrating the one year anniversary of iHeart Women's Sports. With powerful interviews and insider analysis, our shows have connected fans with the heart of women's Sports. In just one year, the network has launched 15 shows and built to community united by passion podcasts that amplify the voices of women in sports. Thank you for supporting iHeart women's sports and our founding sponsors E L F Beauty, Capital One and Novartis. Just open the free iHeart app and search iHeart Women's Sports to listen. Now. Every case that is a cold case that has DNA right now in a backlog will be identified in our lifetime.
- [67:05]
Matt
On the new podcast America's Crime Lab.
- [67:08]
Yaneli Espinal
Every case has a story, story to tell and the DNA holds the truth.
- [67:12]
Matt
He never thought he was going to.
- [67:13]
Joel
Get caught and I just looked at.
- [67:15]
Matt
My computer screen, I was just like ah, gotcha.
- [67:18]
Joel
This technology is already solving so many cases.
- [67:22]
Yaneli Espinal
Listen to America's Crime Lab on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts or wherever you get your podcasts. This is an iHeart podcast.