Forging Financial Flexibility in an Uneasy Economy (Bestie) #969

Summary

Podcast Title: How to Money
Host/Author: iHeartPodcasts
Episode: Forging Financial Flexibility in an Uneasy Economy (Bestie) #969
Release Date: April 11, 2025

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Introduction: Navigating Financial Uncertainty

In episode #969 of How to Money, co-hosts Joel and Matt delve into the critical topic of forging financial flexibility amidst an increasingly unstable economic landscape. The hosts emphasize that financial flexibility is an often underrated yet essential characteristic for thriving in uncertain times. By maintaining adaptability in financial decisions, individuals can better withstand economic downturns and seize opportunities as they arise.

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Understanding Financial Flexibility

Joel introduces the concept by likening economic unpredictability to environmental changes, such as unexpected jellyfish swarms disrupting a beach vacation:

“There are potential things that could happen. I have to kind of plan ahead for them... to set myself up for the best possible future.”
[02:14]

Matt builds on this by contrasting flexibility with grit, suggesting that while both are valuable, flexibility may offer greater resilience:

“A person who's flexible, they're just more resilient.”
[04:45]

The discussion underscores that economic cycles are inevitable, and understanding historical patterns can better prepare individuals to navigate these fluctuations.

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Current Economic Climate and Its Implications

The hosts examine current economic indicators, including rising interest rates and inflation, highlighting their impact on personal finances. Joel shares a personal anecdote about a friend facing a sudden hiring freeze, illustrating the real-world consequences of economic shifts:

“We're seeing some warning signs, right. Layoffs are happening with greater rapidity.”
[12:54]

Matt explains the Federal Reserve's role in managing inflation through interest rate adjustments, which can lead to job losses and affect various sectors:

“They're trying to curb demand and thereby slowing the rate of inflation... it probably means lost jobs.”
[13:06]

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Practical Strategies for Achieving Financial Flexibility

**1. Building a Robust Savings Fund

Joel and Matt stress the importance of having an emergency fund as the foundation of financial flexibility. They recommend:

• Basic Emergency Fund: Approximately $2,467.
• Expanded Savings: Three to six months' worth of expenses to provide a safety net during economic downturns.

Matt emphasizes the psychological benefits of having savings:

“More cash equals more peace of mind.”
[38:11]

**2. Reducing Major and Minor Expenses

The hosts discuss strategies to minimize both large and recurring expenses:

• Major Expenses: Housing and transportation are highlighted as the primary areas for potential savings. Techniques include house hacking or moving to a smaller residence to generate passive income.
• Recurring Expenses: Cutting down on subscriptions, opting for store brands, and reducing non-essential spending can accumulate significant savings over time.

Joel explains:

“Having a bare bones budget allows you to pivot if you need to... providing you additional time to find another job or restore that income.”
[21:48]

**3. Multiple Streams of Income

Diversifying income sources is another key strategy. The hosts suggest:

• Side Hustles: Engaging in side gigs or freelance work to supplement primary income.
• Entrepreneurship: Starting a business can provide additional financial stability and flexibility.

Matt notes the surge in business formations during economic downturns:

“When there are changes within the economy, there's also going to be opportunity.”
[32:19]

**4. Investment Flexibility

Investing opportunistically without succumbing to speculative risks is crucial:

• Strategic Investments: Investing more when the market is down to capitalize on lower prices.
• Avoiding Speculation: Steering clear of high-risk individual stocks unless used as play money.

Joel cautions against emotional investment decisions:

“You can be passionate about something that actually loses you money instead of making you money.”
[34:06]

**5. Utilizing Financial Tools

Leveraging financial instruments can enhance flexibility:

• Home Equity Line of Credit (HELOC): Acts as a backup for emergencies without depleting savings.
• Roth IRA: Contributions can be withdrawn tax and penalty-free, serving as an additional safety net.

Joel advises:

“A Roth IRA can act as a backup to the backup.”
[39:19]

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Adapting Financial Goals and Timelines

Flexibility also involves adjusting financial goals and timelines in response to economic changes:

• Housing Market Adjustments: Deciding whether to purchase a home now or wait for more favorable interest rates.
• Career Choices: Being open to changing careers or negotiating salaries based on financial circumstances.

Matt illustrates with a mortgage refinancing example:

“If you identify that this is no longer going to be worth it, will I continue down the path...”
[05:17]

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Mindset and Preparedness

Joel and Matt highlight the importance of a resilient mindset in handling financial uncertainty:

“James Clear says, the ultimate form of preparation is not planning for a specific scenario, but a mindset that can handle uncertainty.”
[46:12]

Adopting a mindset geared towards adaptability allows individuals to better manage unexpected financial challenges and leverage opportunities.

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Listener Takeaways and Practical Steps

To achieve financial flexibility, the hosts recommend:

1. Establish an Emergency Fund: Start with the basics and gradually build up to three to six months' worth of expenses.
2. Create a Bare Bones Budget: Identify and eliminate non-essential expenses to provide a clear financial buffer.
3. Diversify Income Streams: Explore side gigs, freelance work, or entrepreneurial ventures to reduce reliance on a single income source.
4. Utilize Financial Tools Wisely: Leverage HELOCs and Roth IRAs as additional safety nets without depleting primary savings.
5. Stay Informed and Adaptable: Keep abreast of economic trends and be prepared to adjust financial plans accordingly.

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Conclusion: Embracing Financial Flexibility

Joel and Matt conclude by reiterating that financial flexibility empowers individuals to make informed and adaptable financial decisions, enhancing both financial stability and peace of mind. By implementing the discussed strategies, listeners can better navigate economic uncertainties and seize opportunities for growth and resilience.

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Bonus Segment: Beer Tasting

In a lighter segment towards the end, Joel and Matt share their thoughts on Six, a Saison-style beer by Upright Brewing from Portland, Oregon. Joel describes it as an unexpected blend with darker, raisiny notes:

“It had like some of those spices. It was actually darker than I expected... not my favorite style, but a decent fall beer.”
[47:37]

Matt appreciates its unique combination of dark and dry flavors, likening its character to a well-crafted homebrew:

“It's very, very interesting... it's got those darker flavors. This real brown bread raisins.”
[48:14]

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Notable Quotes

• Joel [02:14]: “Let me take me to page 62. I'm the most prepared that I can be.”
• Matt [04:45]: “A person who's flexible, they're just more resilient.”
• Joel [12:54]: “We're seeing some warning signs, right. Layoffs are happening with greater rapidity.”
• Matt [13:06]: “They're trying to curb demand and thereby slowing the rate of inflation.”
• Joel [21:48]: “Having a bare bones budget allows you to pivot if you need to... providing you additional time to find another job or restore that income.”
• Joel [34:06]: “You can be passionate about something that actually loses you money instead of making you money.”
• Joel [39:19]: “A Roth IRA can act as a backup to the backup.”
• Joel [46:12]: “James Clear says, the ultimate form of preparation is not planning for a specific scenario, but a mindset that can handle uncertainty.”

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Final Thoughts

Forging Financial Flexibility in an Uneasy Economy offers listeners a comprehensive guide to building resilience against economic uncertainties. By combining practical financial strategies with an adaptable mindset, Joel and Matt provide valuable insights that empower individuals to achieve a more secure and flexible financial future.

For more resources, episode show notes, and previous episodes referenced, visit howtomoney.com.

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Best friends out.

Transcript

[Joel]

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[Matt]

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[Joel]

Am a current client of Domain Money. I received a financial plan as part of the compensation for Domain Money's advertising on the podcast and therefore I have an incentive to promote Domain Money in.

[Shannon Schuyler]

A world of economic uncertainty and workplace transformation. Learn to lead by example from visionary C suite executives like Shannon Schuyler of PwC and Will Pearson of iHeartMedia. The good teacher explains the great teacher inspires.

[Matt]

Don't always leave your team to do the work that's been the most important part of how to lead by example.

[Shannon Schuyler]

Listen to Leading by Example executives making an impact on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

[Matt]

Happy spring break to you, buddy. This is our spring break, so we aren't actually here at the mics. We are somewhere else enjoying some time off.

[Joel]

Maybe pina colada? I don't know.

[Matt]

We'll see. We did not want to leave our listeners hanging though, so we actually do have a bestie episode here. Forging financial flexibility.

[Joel]

What was it in an uneasy economy? It's funny because this came out three.

[Matt]

Years ago, doesn't it just seem as relevant as ever? Like, is every period of uncertainty in the economy going to make us think, oh, is it different this time? There are reasons to think that it's different this time.

[Joel]

I think perpetual uneasiness exists in an economy. Like, there's always something to point to on the horizon that could be bad, whether it's a change in who's running the country or political leadership. Right.

[Matt]

Whether it's market conditions, it's consistently dynamic. There's always an oxymoron.

[Joel]

Yeah, well, there's always something that could go wrong, just like in real life, right? And so you could either put yourself in a padded room until the day you die, or you could find ways to kind of negotiate the reality of human existence. And that's what we have to do with the economy too, is say, like, there are these potential things that could happen. I have to kind of plan ahead for them. How can I best set myself up for the best possible future? Like a choose your own adventure book. Like, let me take me to page 62. I'm the most prepared that I can be.

[Matt]

Totally.

[Joel]

But you also can't be 100% fully prepared at all times. But hopefully this episode can help you figure out because there's more uneasiness ahead. Sure. How you can be prepared.

[Matt]

Absolutely. And we did. We were speaking to some specific things that were going on a few years ago, but the principles remain the same.

[Joel]

So without further ado, welcome to how to Money. I'm Joel.

[Matt]

And I am Matt.

[Joel]

And today we are discussing forging financial flexibility in an uneasy.

[Matt]

Hitting them with the old triple F. Joel, we are talking about specifically flexibility. It's not often that we dedicate an entire episode to a singular characteristic, but that is what we're doing today. We think that, honestly, that this is an underrated characteristic. I think with this one attribute, you could take somebody who's kind of like average, maybe even below average with her finances, but if they have the ability to be flexible when it comes to their money and the different opportunities that they're presented with and, and just flexible in all the different ways that we're going to talk about today, that they all of a sudden go from, like, zero to hero.

[Joel]

Maybe not as impactful as grit, because we talked about that a while. How, how grit can make, like, a massive difference in your ability to make progress with your finances. Someone with, with grit, but the same income as someone who doesn't have the grit. Well, we would say that you're going to have a much better chance of sustaining and making progress.

[Matt]

But yeah, all right, person A, they've got grit, but they're not flexible at all. Or person B, they've got very little grit, but they're incredibly flexible. I might actually side with the person who's got some flexibility. Right, because, like, the person who's flexible, they're just more resilient. And honestly, that's a lot of what we're going to be talking about today is being resilient with your money. But I don't want to discount grit as well.

[Joel]

Specific ways in which you can be flexible in order to pounce on opportunities. And especially as like, like, like the title says, there's a lot of economic uncertainty right now, but there's a reality that you can actually use that to your advantage.

[Matt]

That's right. Yeah. But first, man, I told you that I'm going to get the companion pass next year. That's my goal. We've got the chase southwest credit card, but this is a new little bit of information. Starting next year, they increased the number of points that's going to take to get the companion pass. They did it all bait and switch on me because I had already applied.

[Joel]

Isn't like 100,000 more points now?

[Matt]

Not 100,000 more. It used to be 125,000 points.

[Joel]

Now, what is it?

[Matt]

135. So it's not a massive uptake, but it's still. This is one of the ways that we're seeing inflation impact. Some of the different rewards that you earn with different airline, different carriers, but also the different bonuses that you receive from the credit cards.

[Joel]

You'll still be able to make this happen. Are you going to be flexible enough to.

[Matt]

The real question is, if I identify that this is no longer going to be worth it, will I continue down the path and earn the companion pass? Just because I have stated that it's something that we're going after, but I think we'll be able to.

[Joel]

Don't fall victim to the sunk cost fallacy, Matt.

[Matt]

3,000 bucks. You got to spend 3,000 bucks, and you get the 75,000 points, plus they throw in, like, an additional 10,000 points plus the initial 3,000 in spend. And so right out of the gate, you're starting with 88,000 points.

[Joel]

Okay, so you're most of the way there.

[Matt]

Most of the way there, exactly. So this is a card that we're hoping will allow us to obtain that coveted companion pass. It's just something that we've never done before.

[Joel]

Tell folks what that means.

[Matt]

We've talked about it before, I guess, just briefly.

[Joel]

But what makes a companion pass so phenomenal, so valu.

[Matt]

Because once you get it. So once I get it, I can buy a ticket to go somewhere, to fly somewhere, and then a companion gets to come along with me for absolutely free. Well, you have to pay, like, the taxes for that ticket.

[Joel]

So where are you taking me? I guess the big question, luckily for.

[Matt]

You, I can change the companion. You can change your companion, like, multiple times in a given year. And so I can change it from Kate to you, from you to my daughter. There's all sorts of options available.

[Joel]

Let's start with me and go to Hawaii, though. Can we do that?

[Matt]

That's one of the Southwest cards where they're hooking you up with a lot of points. And by the way, this is a card that you can learn more about via our credit cards. Tool howtomoney.com credit cards. And if you are actually not a fan of Southwest, you can actually sort by some of the other airlines as well. If you're a Delta guy, maybe you're into American Airlines, those options are there for you as well. You can check that out straight up.

[Joel]

Cash back too. I mean, based on how you spend, this is going to help you find the credit card that's going to be best for how you spend. But and Matt, the reality is if you have a Southwest, if Southwest flies from the airport nearest where you live, that companion pass can be just a massive benefit because you're gonna have that for two years. So yep, it's a really, really cool. Yeah, it's a really cool perk. We should actually probably flesh that out and write an article about that on the website or something like that. But the Southwest companion pass is this like perk that's not as well known about. It doesn't get talked about enough. But if you can meet that spend threshold, get those points and get the companion pass and if you travel enough to make it worth it, it can be like one of the greatest values when it comes to credit card rewards.

[Matt]

That's right.

[Joel]

But let's move on. Matt, let's mention the beer we're having on the show. This one is called Six. It's a Saison style beer by Upright Brewing out of Portland, Oregon. We'll give our thoughts on this one at the end of the episode. But let's get onto the topic at hand. We are talking about the Triple Fs forging financial flexibility in an uneasy economy. We just love alliteration. Sorry. We won't apologize for it.

[Matt]

It's kind of our favorite thing. At least for now. Maybe we'll switch it up.

[Joel]

Yeah.

[Matt]

Well, what if all of our future titles of our episodes are just all puns?

[Joel]

We can do that.

[Matt]

What do you think people would hate worse?

[Joel]

I don' that's a good question. Okay, but we might start getting more hate mail, which I think I'm okay with. But let's thinking about this, this topic, Matt, it made me think of actually our summer vacation this year. We went to Tybee island, which is like our favorite place to go just outside of Savannah, Georgia for a week as a family. And fortunately it wasn't until right after we left, but there was this massive swarm of jellyfish that descended in the water there basically right right after we departed.

[Matt]

Since it's jellyfish, aren't they? Wouldn't it technically, technically be a school of jellyfish? Maybe swarm. They do sting.

[Joel]

Yeah. That's why I think. Okay, but you're probably right, but they're.

[Matt]

Not even really an army of jellyfish.

[Joel]

Are they actually fish either?

[Matt]

Technically, no.

[Joel]

Okay. Yeah. Because they're like blobs. Yeah. I think that's. That's the scientific definition of jellyfish blobs. But there's this article actually published by the local TV station right after we left saying that lifeguards had to treat 300 folks for jellyfish things in a single weekend. And it's not like Tybee's really that.

[Matt]

Big, but it's like everybody that was there.

[Joel]

Right, Exactly. And so we ended up seeing a few while we were there. My oldest daughter, she even got stung a couple of times. But after we left, the conditions got worse by a meaningful amount. Which. Which meant like swimming in the water, it's just not that fun with all those jellyfish hanging around.

[Matt]

Nope.

[Joel]

And those changing conditions meant that folks had to react differently. People coming to the beach that week had to take a different tactic, had to enjoy themselves on the beach in a different way. Maybe a little less bodyboarding, a little more bocce ball on the beach. Right. So you're gonna have to. You have to change your plans just a little bit because of the environment that you're in. We. I would say the same is true for us and for our money. Right. If we want to make the money we're given go the furthest, it's important to know the basics, but it's also crucial to get a read on the overall environment that we're doing business in. And just like you might need to adapt your vacation plans if jellyfish have taken over the water, seeing the current trends right in the. In the financial space can help us optimize our decisions in order to avoid unnecessary pain and, you know, grow our wealth more quickly and more efficiently too.

[Matt]

Yeah. You know, this is always important to keep in mind, but even more so considering that we're living in an incredibly, like, dynamic environment right now. Right. Like, we've seen more change in the past two years than we would typically see in a decade or honestly, even longer. And aside from what we've recently experienced, and I'm talking about the pandemic stimmy checks, economic doomsday scenarios, which then flipped into a booming recovery, and then again now inflation and the fear of recession, like all of these things, the truth is that nothing ever stays the same. There are definitely some core principles and fundamentals that are. That are pretty much always going to be true. Out there. But everything else around us is going to continue to evolve with change. It's the only constant. Right. And if we decide on a course of action and stick with it, stick to it, no matter what the market is doing around us, we're going to be financially worse off. And that's why it's important to maintain a level of financial flexibility, which is what we're talking all about today.

[Joel]

Yeah. And makes me think of Atlanta traffic. Matt, if you know that going downtown at 5pm clearly it's going to be the worst possible time to hop in your car and try to head into the heart of the city. And so you might want to change your plans accordingly. If you could do a noon lunch with that friend or coworker instead, you might opt for that. And so you have to be flexible in order to avoid pain in this world. But let's talk about how, like something specific in regards to that. A word that people have been hearing a lot more lately is the word recession. Right. Especially if you turn on CNBC for any amount of time or read the financial media. Will we have one? Are we in one? How bad is it going to be? Those are the kind of questions that are being talked about. And I'm sorry, if you turn in to hear the answer to that question, we, we don't have it. We don't know. But especially when economic storm clouds are on the horizon, we would say that your ability to flex, to be flexible is even more necessary. We are seeing some warning signs, right. Layoffs are happening with greater rapidity. We're hearing of hiring freezes happening at companies like Amazon. Matt, my friend, he works at a big major tech company and he was like a shoe in for this new position and it was going to come with a little more pay as well. And they freezed all sorts of pay increases across the board. So right as he was on the precipice of getting this new job, they, they shut it down. And so he's going to have to be content where he is for a little bit longer. The reality is a lot of this is happening in the tech sector and it's hard to know if we're in store for some incredibly minor economic pains that are keenly felt in just a few of these specific sectors or if the entire economy is likely going to feel some of the wrath. But yet, despite our inability to predict the future, to predict, predict the reality of a likely recession or not, the truth is more economic pain is probable.

[Matt]

Yeah, I mean, what the Fed is attempting to do by Rationing up interest rates is exactly that.

[Joel]

Right.

[Matt]

Like they're trying to cool the economy off, they're trying to curb demand and thereby slowing the rate of inflation. And what that means for a lot of folks, it's probably going to mean lost jobs. And so if you're paying attention to the different macro trends out there, the riding, it's been on the wall. And you know, we're not saying that you need to start watching CNBC regularly or that you need to read the detailed minutes from each Fed meeting and see what Jay Powell has to say.

[Joel]

Although you like to do that with your monocle on sometimes in order to.

[Matt]

Know how it is that you should handle your money and what you should be doing. But we are saying that getting at least a sense for which way the economic winds are blowing, you know, just like lick your thumb, kind of stick your thumb out there and see which way the winds are blowing, that can be helpful and it can allow you to use those winds, those readings to your advantage as opposed to just getting tossed around by them. I don't know much about sailing, but you want to face your sails in a way that captures the wind.

[Joel]

Well. Airplanes, if you're flying across the world, why is there a two hour difference between your flight there and your flight back? It's headwinds and tailwinds. Right. And if you're using tailwinds to your advantage, you're going to arrive at your destination more quickly. And I think the same thing can be true with our money. If we stay flexible, then we are more liable to take those headwinds and turn them on their face and actually make them more beneficial to us while everyone else is just suffering from the reality. If we can see the direction in which things are headed and plan and react accordingly, we can be in a much better position to pounce when things are difficult. Right, Exactly.

[Matt]

Yeah. Instead of sailing into the wind, figure out where the wind's blowing and say, well, I kind of want to go in that general direction and I can. I don't know. Again, I don't know anything about sailing. But you use the rudder and you kind of points your boat that direction.

[Joel]

Starboard, I don't know.

[Matt]

Yeah, port, I don't know either.

[Joel]

But the truth is that economic cycles are a fact of life too. Right. So that deserves to be talked about. It's not like these headwinds that we're starting to see that we've never seen them before or that they're impossible to identify.

[Matt]

Yeah, we just haven't realized them. We haven't experienced them recently like we have in the recent past.

[Joel]

Yeah, yeah. And the truth is that the more we know about history, the more we can see. If you're only looking at the past 12 years of history, you have a limited scope, a limited knowledge. That's why what the folks who don't know history are doomed to repeat it. And the more we can know about the history of economic cycles, the more we can be prepared to be in a position to flourish when the next downward economic cycle comes along. And the reality is that there are fluctuations between periods of economic growth and contraction. We've had a pretty good growth run over the past 12ish years, something like one of the longest sustained bull runs in history until the beginning of this year. But it appears that not just the stock market heading for a down period, which we've experienced in a big way this year, but then we might be headed for a period of contraction, economic contraction in the near term future. Part of that is because our economy at least partially experienced some of that sustained growth thanks to historically low interest rates, which incentivized that growth. But when you start to see that these cycles happen regularly, it's easier to see how you can maybe use them to your advantage in small ways. Making hay while the sun shines. And Matt, let's give one quick example of this. You know, we talked ad nauseam about refinancing mortgages, mortgage debt, when rates were historically low. I feel like maybe it felt like we were beating a dead horse after.

[Matt]

A while, like we were the boys who cried wolf.

[Joel]

Yeah.

[Matt]

We made a video and stuck it up on Instagram for encouraging people to refi while rates were low.

[Joel]

We kept saying rates are not likely to get much better than this.

[Matt]

We didn't know if they're going to continue to go lower. But I guess what I'm saying is I don't want to be like, well, we knew that they were going to go up. We didn't know.

[Joel]

We didn't know they were going to go up.

[Matt]

But what we did know at that point in time was that our rates right now the lowest they've been in basically the history of mortgages. Yes. And so you have to take that truth that you know the facts on the ground, what you know now, and take action based on those facts.

[Joel]

Yeah. So while we didn't know what the future held, we didn't know rates were going to spike in the way that they have. We didn't know that inflation was going to do what it's done. We Couldn't have predicted that either. The truth is, you could have locked in an uber low mortgage rate for 30 years to come, not knowing what the future holds, but being able to take advantage of at least what the present is giving you.

[Matt]

Yeah, and speaking of inflation, I mean, we're literally in a cycle of inflation right now, of higher inflation, even. Different publications, different media outlets out there, like the Wall Street Journal, they literally created an inflation calculator so that you could figure out what your specific rate of inflation is. Right. And so, for instance, did you buy a house this past summer? Did you also happen to eat a lot of bacon, and then you also bought a new luxury EV at the same time? Well, if so, then you experienced peak inflation for a bunch of goods simultaneously at the same time. But a financially flexible individual instead would want to make different choices. Right? They would have maybe opted to have kept on renting, they maybe wouldn't have bought any bacon, and they would have kept driving their old minivan. And so when it comes to spending, attempting to be financially flexible means adapting your buying decisions based on what's happening with prices. And so inflation is one of the major players. It's one of the big factors that has a dramatic impact on what it looks like in our current economy, in our current environment. But we're actually going to talk through some other examples of what it looks like to be financially flexible in your life. We will get to that and more right after this. Asking the right questions can greatly impact your future, especially when it comes to your finances.

[Joel]

So if you're looking for a financial advisor you can trust, certified financial planner professionals are committed to acting in your best interest. That's why it's got to be a CFP. Find your CFP [e-mail] All right, Matt, let's keep talking about financial flexibility. It's. It's a really important skill to adopt because when, yeah, those headwinds are staring you down in the face, if you don't adapt, you're just gonna move slower. It's gonna feel like you're marching uphill, like our parents had to do, walk to school both ways when they were kids. Right. We heard that a lot.

[Matt]

But honestly, you know what this reminds me of? It reminds me of, did you ever do, like, in school where you had to create a structure out of either play DOH or something like that? Play DOH or something that was more flexible? I forget what it was like jelly or something like that. And you connected toothpicks with those different materials and I was like, okay, which one of these structures is gonna be able to withstand shaking? Or whatever? And I don't know why, but nobody thought that the flexible structure was actually going to stand.

[Joel]

Everyone's like, oh, of course.

[Matt]

The one that's solid. And you slowly shake that one and it falls apart because there is no flexibility in the joints. But the structure that's made with the more flexible joints, it shook around a little bit, but guess what? It did not fall over. That's basically what we're talking about when it comes to being financially flexible. You want to have a little bit of give in the joints. You want to be able to be adaptable when it comes to the different circumstances that we face.

[Joel]

Yeah. And one of the simplest ways we can gain more financial flexibility in our lives is by living frugally, by keeping major expenses in particular to a minimum in your life. And so the largest sections of your monthly budget, they're likely housing and cars. And if you ax those two line items in a meaningful way, that's going to have a massive effect on how flexible you can be. So let's say you're into house hacking, right? You slash that expense even more. Like, that's financial flexibility on steroids. You're able to turn your living situation potentially into a profit generator, which just gives you an insane amount of flexibility. Instead of turning something that is a deficit every month, turning it into an asset every month is. That's an impressive way to change your trajectory of your personal finances. You can become insanely financially resilient doing that. And not everyone wants to rent out a room in their place or wants to sleep in the living room like our friend Craig Kerlop did. Matt, that was an interesting choice on his part, but certainly he would credit that to a lot of the reasons he's been able to accomplish his financial goals a whole lot Sooner in his 20s and early 30s. But. And I get that that's not for everyone, but it's important to mention that the more you can reduce the bigger line items in your budget, cutting a car out of your life or at least reducing rent by moving into a smaller place. I don't know. There are other options out there for you. The more creative you can get, though, you become so much more financially limber, and that's going to have a massive impact on your ability to withstand an adverse or an uneasy economy moving forward.

[Matt]

Yeah. And we do like to focus on those big expenses. Right. Because we want you to get some of those big wins under your belt before, certainly before you're kind of just fretting and pouring over these really small expenses. But like, the small things in life matter too. Obviously they're not going to move the needle quite as much. But, you know, getting those small, specifically recurring bills reduced is really important. And I think that's the key word is the fact that they're recurring. That's how these small expenses go from being something that seems like you shouldn't be paying any attention to, to maybe giving a little bit more of your time and attention. Because there is this outsized impact that they have because the fact that they repeat again and again. And so on one hand, it doesn't seem like a big expense, but if this is a recurring expense or like a subscription and you never cancel it, like we're talking about like a, you know, it makes me think of like Scrabble. You get like a double, triple word score. This is like a 60x multiplier impact. If this is an expense that you have potentially for the rest of your life.

[Joel]

Well, like we talked about on a recent Friday flight, people underestimate the amount of money they're spending on subscriptions. And so they downplay it. Like, oh, yeah, I know I've got some monthly recurring expenditures that I probably could ax, but it's not that bad. The truth is, for most people, it is bad. It's worse than they think.

[Matt]

Exactly. Like, even your cell phone service or your Internet bill or a gym membership, what you are paying for insurance, all of these things matter. Even something as small as, you know, trading down from a name brand to a store brand or opting for a cheaper cut of meat. All of these moves are you showing some flexibility to save when costs are rising?

[Joel]

That's a good point. These are all specific, tangible ways that you can make yourself more financially resilient, more financially flexible by cutting spending in the big ways and the small ways. Matt, we talked about creating a bare bones budget back on episode 362. I think that's an episode that most folks should go back and listen to if they haven't heard it. Because having one of those in place is a great way to be able to pivot if and when you need to. And so basically what we mean by a bare bones budget is you've got your normal budget and you're saying, like, this is what I spend typically every month, but there's a lot of fluff in there. There's a lot of things that are nice to haves a lot of luxury, but they're not need to haves Right. The roof over your, over your head. Maintaining, maintaining insurance, like putting food on the table, those are need to haves. And so creating a bare bones budget that helps you see exactly all the fluff you can cut instantaneously if the worst possible thing happens. Let's say you do lose a job or something like that if you saw a reduction in income, knowing that you can immediately pivot to the bare bones budget versus the one you normally use and reduce those expenses in a meaningful way basically overnight. By implementing the bare bones budget, that allows for a whole lot more peace of mind and it provides you additional time to find another job or restore that income. We've heard from listeners, Matt, who have implemented something like this and they've said, you know what? And they have lost a job and they've let us know, guess what? Having more money in savings and having a bare bones budget, those two things dramatically impacted my mental health while I was out of work. It made me feel less like behind the eight ball and more like I had some breathing room, I had some margin and I could take my time to see what was next. As opposed to feeling like you got to go out there and get the first crappiest job that you, that you get offered.

[Matt]

Yeah, it's, it's a hard financial tool and that it allows you to see how much money you're actually spending. But it's, it's sort of like the softer tool as well. Like it's, it's a boost, it's a, it's an emotional boost that gives you the confidence to know that things are likely going to be okay. And so let's kind of talk through some different scenarios, some ways where you might see financial flexibility play out in your life. And like one of the ones I'm thinking of is that the more flexibility you have, the more that you're going to be able to pounce on a deal when it comes along. Budgeting, it's a great way to plan your spending wisely. Always like taking that approach. But what if you come across a deal that's just too good to pass up, but you haven't budgeted for it? Are you going to be like a hardliner? Are you going to stick with the budget and be like, oh, well, I didn't budget for it, therefore I have to pass up on this?

[Joel]

Right.

[Matt]

Well, this is where having some financial flexibility can come in handy. You, obviously, you don't want to overdo this. Right. But the truth is that having an additional chunk of money set aside for killer deals like, like an outrageously cheap flight or a mountain bike that's 50% off. That can be really nice and it can allow you to feel like you can make that a priority when you otherwise may have just walked away all bummed realizing that, like, well, I'm going to have to. Maybe I'll budget for that next year. It's like, no, pounce on the deal. Take advantage of the situation. And being flexible and having that extra cash on hand is what's going to allow you to do that.

[Joel]

Yeah, it makes me. But I don't really have to be saving for those cheap flights, Matt, because I'm going to be your free companion from here on out, which is nice.

[Matt]

Still got to cover the fees and taxes, Joel.

[Joel]

That's true, but those are cheap. Those are very, very cheap. But let's talk to financial flexibility. It also means being flexible with your timeline and your goals based on what's happening with the economy and with the market in general.

[Matt]

Yeah, it's like a mental flexibility.

[Joel]

Yeah, for sure. You can see this really acutely right now in the housing market. Let's say that for a couple of years you've been saving up and looking to buy your first house, which is exciting, right? That's something you've been looking forward to.

[Matt]

It was exciting.

[Joel]

It's not exciting anymore.

[Matt]

A lot of folks, it's actually quite scary now. They're not excited about it.

[Joel]

Right. And maybe you're close to that ideal 20% down payment amount and you're like, man, I've been listening to how to money and I have gotten so much better with my finances and I am socking away more. And like, we are at this point and we are ready to buy. But now, because of rising interest rates, housing has become way less affordable. The question is like, should you still pounce? And so much of that depends on so many specifics of your situation. We can't speak to that directly. But highly flexible folks, a lot of highly flexible folks would opt to wait, hoping to see price declines in the coming months. But let's say the house of your dreams comes along. A highly financially flexible person might also choose to buy the home and then refinance at a later date when rates do eventually go down. But being financially flexible, it's all about holding out for a better environment or waiting for the right thing to come along instead of kind of forcing the issue. Opting to become house poor by overspending is doing the exact opposite of staying financially flexible. You might be locking. You're locking yourself into Something that is going to prevent your financial flexibility in the future.

[Matt]

That's right, yeah. Changing your spending, changing your financial goals, shifting your timeline. That all makes sense based on what's happening in the economy. But how can you be more financially flexible when it comes to earning money? Let's talk about that here for a second. Because one thing that goes a long way in that endeavor, it's worth discussing is to focus more on amassing peace out money. I don't even remember what episode it was, but we'll link to it in the show notes when we originally talked about peace out money. This might even be in the sub 100 episode range long time ago. But some of our listeners might have their minds entirely focused on fire on financial independence. Retiring early, they want to amass a bunch of money. They want to stop working way earlier than most folks. That's not a bad aim. But the reality is that financial independence, it's more on a spectrum. And it's not only achieved by amassing typically what we say is 25 times your annual expenses than quitting your job. Because the more money that you're able to bank, the more cash backup that you have, the bolder that you can be in your choices, essentially buying yourself some freedom. And we would say that having a fatter bank account, having more cash on hand can empower you to do something like change careers, to switch to a career that might pay a little bit less, but gives you more of what you're now looking for in life. It can allow you to seek employment just elsewhere or to even ask for a promotion or for a raise that you might be nervous to ask for. All of these things are more possible when you've got that peace out money.

[Joel]

Yeah, you mentioned seeking employment maybe that might not pay you as much or maybe going to work for yourself. Right? That's another thing you can, you can consider it feels like when you have more financial flex, when you have more peace out money, more money sitting in your bank account makes you feel more confident, more Runway to go, start your own thing and see what happens. It's also important to mention that having multiple streams of income is another way to make yourself more financially flexible. Not putting all your eggs in one income basket can help you feel more at ease and offer you more flexibility. Especially when you're seeing nasty economic headlines and you're worried about your own financial future. Well, not having it all tied to one company or one paycheck can help alleviate at least some of those fears. Yeah, if you lose your main job and You've got no other income coming in that. That can be really scary. And so that's part of what we like about owning rental properties, the cash flow that they produce each year and each and every month. It means that we don't have to solely rely on our small business income.

[Matt]

But there are how the money may not always be around. Hopefully it will.

[Joel]

Hopefully, yeah.

[Shannon Schuyler]

Well.

[Matt]

And hopefully, please don't cancel us.

[Joel]

Right, Exactly. What if Matt says something completely ridiculous.

[Matt]

Which is highly likely, highly unlikely, and then it's going to be you. If anyone gets canceled, it's going to be Joel.

[Joel]

That's probably true, but there are all sorts of things that could happen to dry up some of our income, like ad spending could dramatically reduce.

[Matt]

That's true.

[Joel]

That's a big part of our livelihood. But having another stream of income, having other sources where we make income every month means we're not as reliant, specifically on the podcast, to make money. And so that's something you can implement into your life as well. And it's important to mention not all the ways you can generate additional income streams are not created equal, but side gigs are one way to do it. Although here's the thing, you're straight up trading time for money. When you choose to drive for Lyft or Uber or something like that. Having a side hustle is kind of different. It allows you to start building up your own business, which can be another effective route. And it's often more sustainable, but it often takes a little more time for that to pay out from a financial perspective. But we'd say building up other streams of income over time so you aren't reliant on a single job or a single employer is massively helpful. It makes you a more financially flexible person.

[Matt]

That's right.

[Joel]

Yeah.

[Matt]

So on that note, actually, it's important to keep your eyes open to where opportunity exists. Right. And to be able to strike while the iron is hot. Weird economic times. They have often been the best time for people to in particular start their own businesses. This kind of seems counterintuitive, but it's totally true. We've actually seen the pandemic accelerate the rate at which small businesses are being created. We think that's a good thing. Before the pandemic, there were around is something on average like 290,000 new businesses being formed every month. But then By July of 2020, that spiked to over 550,000 new businesses formed in just one month.

[Joel]

It's like almost double.

[Matt]

Yeah. And you know, it's leveled off now. According to the data from the Census Bureau, we're holding steady at around 415,000 new businesses per month. But that is a large number of individuals who discovered that they were either A, unhappy with the work that they were doing and decided to make a change, or B, at the very least, it's a large number of entrepreneurs who have identified a problem. Right. They focus in on a hole in the market that they are seeking to fill. Anytime there are changes within the economy, there's also going to be opportunity there. You have to be able to recognize those problems and how it is that you can provide value. It makes me think about Joel, like when Kate and I started our photography company. Oh my gosh, like 13, 14, 15 years ago. I can't even do the math now, but nobody was basically providing the kind of photography that we knew that we could provide. And so I say that because it sort of sounds like a cold, emotionless business decision. Just like, oh, there is a need in the market. Oh, there's value to be provided. But that's so important in order for a business to be able to sustain itself. Right. I think a lot of times when folks talk about entrepreneurship, they use words like passion, they use word like they try to over romanticize it. And it's about, I don't know, just like all of these kind of gooey, mushy terms when it comes to the business and how it's this thing that they're really excited about. There's a lot of emotional words attached to it as opposed to some of these harder, more business types of words. But it can't just be about passion and what it is that you want to do. You have to actually identify a market. And so I think it just really pays to be aware to the different opportunities that might be revealing themselves to you in this current economy.

[Joel]

It's possible to be passionate about something that actually loses you money instead of makes you mad.

[Matt]

Absolutely. That's called a hobby.

[Joel]

Yeah, right. Or Internet gambling, which is a bad idea. It makes me think too. Talking about like flexibility and kind of pouncing on opportunity. Matt. And starting your own business. That just makes me think of a conversation I had with someone when we went to fincon this year, which is our nerdy financial media conference. And someone told me about getting a stimulus check and how that revolutionized it, changed their life. And it's amazing how just like this small influx of cash from the government, unexpectedly, when everything else was going well in her life, she was able to still main meet her other financial obligations. It was like seed money for her to start her business.

[Matt]

Yeah.

[Joel]

And now she's massive, like she's making meaningful income from that business. She's been able to quit her regular job. These are the kind of things like this is what we're talking about with financial flexibility. What do you do when an unexpected sum of money drops in your lap? And you know what, Matt, coming soon, in a few months, a lot of people are going to experience that with a tax refund. What are you going to do when that drops in your lap? Are you going to use it to fund your next venture, to start something, or are you going to spend it on stuff? We would say the financially flexible person would take that as an opportunity to start something meaningful as opposed to just soaking it up and making some more random purchases.

[Matt]

That's right. So yeah, these have been a few different examples of how financial flexibility can manifest itself in your life. But we're going to continue down the practical side of things. We want to make sure that you have some practical steps that allow you to achieve financial flexibility and we will get to those right after this. Asking the right questions can greatly impact your future, especially when it comes to your finances.

[Joel]

So if you're looking for a financial advisor you can trust, certified financial planner professionals are committed to acting in your best interest. That's why it's gotta be a CFP. Find your CFP professional at letsmakeaplan.org alright man, let's keep rolling. We're talking about how to become more financially flexible. And the reality is, like most Americans, the financial state they're in, they've got no flexibility. Right. Their income barely exceeds their outgoing. They don't have enough margin to be flexible. They're living paycheck to paycheck. And we've talked about the stats of how even people making significant amounts of money, six figures in many cases, are still living paycheck to paycheck. It's a real problem. And so what we want for our listeners, no matter what your income is, we want you to have flexibility in your life so that you can make choices that are best for you and your family, no matter what's happening in the broader economy as a whole. And so far we've painted a picture of what it could look like if you're financially flexible. Hopefully we've laid out a few different scenarios that you can grasp onto where you can see, oh, this is a way in which I could take advantage of this low rate at this period of time, or a way in which I could Pounce because I got some extra cash or a way in which, yeah, I could modify my behavior based on what's happening around me. But let's, let's do more, let's get super specific and practical. What steps do you need to take to become more financially flexible in your life? And we would say having solid savings is a foundational element of flexible finance. Right. Being in a strong cash position is kind of the bedrock of being able to do so much of what we have already discussed. So whether that's the ability to pounce on a deal because companies are liquidating inventory. Right. Or whether that means having the financial margin on hand to be able to launch that new business venture. Whatever it is you're looking to do, it's, it's crucial to have at least that basic E fund amount that we always talk about, $2,467. And after that you want something like three to six months worth of expenses in your savings account on hand. That in and of itself is going to make a massive difference. And, and how much, by the way, depends on your specific financial situation. But getting to that level, getting to that point, if you're not there yet, you'll be surprised at just how mentally free you feel and how much actual backstop you have to make different decisions in your life based on what's happening.

[Matt]

Yeah, well, I mean, speaking of mental freedom, right. Like having that cash on hand, it has these non monetary benefits as well. It's going to reduce stress in your life. More cash equals more peace of mind. And when you are living paycheck to paycheck, you know, where you're on the financial precipice, that is a stressful place to be. And it can also get expensive. Folks who have no margin are more likely to overdraw their checking account, for instance, leading to fees that can exacerbate the problem. If that's the case, if you're banking with a bank that is charging you crappy fees, we would recommend that you bank elsewhere. Go with one of the great online banks that we talk about all the time. But you're also going to be more likely then to turn to worse financial products or to even get worse deals from companies that you end up doing business with, for instance, payday loans. Or if you're in a bank, bad financial state, let's say your credit isn't so great. Well, you're going to pay more for car insurance in most states, making it even harder to get ahead. And then no surprise, right? Scrambling to pay all of these Additional fees, all of these new bills, these new payments that you have every month is going to continue to take a toll on not only your mental health, but just the impacts it's going to have on your physical well being as well.

[Joel]

Yeah, less financial flexibility means just you're beholden more to companies you're doing business with and that creates additional financial hardships and mental stress too. And it's important to note as well that there are actually some financial tools that can help you be more flexible. So we would say savings is a part of that. It's a crucial step in order to become more financially flexible. But let's talk about some actual tools you can use simultaneously that might help you, that might aid you in being more flexible. Let's start with if you own a home, a home equity line of credit that can allow you to reduce the emergency fund that you have to have on hand, allowing you to potentially invest a little bit more if, let's say, while the market's down. Right. It still offers a bit of financial backstop at much less egregious interest rates than credit cards. Because if you don't pay your credit card bill off on time and in full every month, we're not cool with that. That doesn't provide you financial flexibility. That makes you beholden to the banks and to the credit card providers. So the goal is to not tap that heloc, but to have it available should you need it in case of an emergency. And we don't think this takes you off the hook for having cash on hand. It doesn't mean we want you to be comfortable having 1500 bucks in savings, like that's not enough, but it can be an effective backup to the backup. That's how we think about it. And the same is true with a Roth ira, because that's actually one of the most flexible accounts you can sock away investment dollars into. You're putting in after tax dollars. You have the ability to take all of those contributions out tax and penalty free because of the Roth is constructed. And so if you've been contributing for a bunch of years, some of that Roth money, it can act as a backup to the backup too. Again, like tapping that heloc, tapping your Roth to pay for consumption, really bad idea. But the fact that you can have both of these tools acting as extreme backups does allow for more financial flexibility. It means you do have a last line of defense, basically if something does go wrong.

[Matt]

But also investing that is important as well. And specifically, let's talk about being opportunistic because investing more when the stock market is on sale, that can be a way to take advantage of some not so great economic news of a not so great economic cycle. That being said, it's easier said than done. Than done, right? Like some folks, they will sit on cash for far too long in an effort to invest while the market starts to sag. They want to catch it at the bottom, basically. But then that often means that they're missing out on opportunities along the way if they get the timing wrong and they're trying to time it perfectly. But in the same way that we want you to be able to pounce on a deal when you see an item marked down or an item that's on clearance, we want you to adopt that same mentality when it comes to your investments. And that's great news if you are in the wealth growing stage of your life. But let's say you're getting closer to retirement. Maybe you'd love to quit tomorrow, but you've seen a fairly dramatic decline in your retirement account. Well, this is where making an intentional effort to be flexible is really going to pay off. You've got a couple options here. You could continue to work a little bit longer where you're keeping that revenue stream alive while giving your investments time to recover. Or you could opt to reduce your lifestyle, maybe pushing off some of the expensive travel that you've been hoping to do. Either way, that would allow you to sidestep that sequence of returns risk that risk you face by immediately taking out too much of your portfolio immediately after retirement, hamstringing your retirement plans. And you know, you do this by not tapping those accounts, allowing them time to recover.

[Joel]

Yeah, man. What you're saying there too is so much of it depends on your specific personal financial situation. Right. How you're able to be flexible and how you're able to pounce because it's going to look different for someone who's in their 20s versus someone who's in their 60s. And that's a good point. Like, but what can you do? I think it feels pretty crappy if you're in your 60s and you are ready to retire this year or next year or something like that. But the truth is there are options available to you that can allow you to be more flexible. And it's not always a fun or easy decision. But the truth is like you have more ability, more say over your life than you think.

[Matt]

Yeah, it kind of reminds me of traveling by car because maybe the older school method would be you pull out The Ray and McNally, you look at the map, whatever you print off the directions via MapQuest, and you've got all the pages there sitting in your passenger seat, and you've identified a route, a path that you're gonna take.

[Joel]

Even by. We're not old enough to have done that. So I never did that. I printed out a MapQuest directions back in the day, but I grew up.

[Matt]

As a kid sitting in the passenger seat looking at the atlas. Oh, yeah, dude, I loved it. I was like, I had the binoculars. I would like, look off in the distance for police.

[Joel]

You're very.

[Matt]

Just in case dad happened to be going too fast. It never worked out, though, because it's so shaky. But like, that's kind of the old school method. And that's what it looks like to not be flexible because we didn't have the information to let us know that there was a better route. But today, what do we have? We've got ways. And all of a sudden it's like rerouting. By going this route, you'll save however.

[Joel]

Much time tells you when police are on the coming up.

[Matt]

There is a degree of flexibility when it comes to following directions like that. But I mean, in my experience, I have always followed those instructions because they do get you there faster. And so it takes having a more open spirit, a willingness to try something different. Even though that wasn't your original intent.

[Joel]

Yeah. And by the way, I think it's important to ment that there are ways in which you could attempt to be financially flexible, taking advantage of different cycles that might actually produce the wrong results. Let's say you're like, wait a second, this stock is down 95%. Maybe I should invest now because it's not doing so hot. But that would be different than what we recommend. We don't want you to invest in individual stocks, basically, no matter what, unless you're just. It's play money, right. That you're messing around with.

[Matt]

But yeah, there's a fine line between being opportunistic and then speculating.

[Joel]

Yes, speculating being stupid. The truth is like, how can you become more financially flexible? Well, it makes me think about just physical flexibility, Matt. My body. I am not the most flexible guy. I remember in elementary school, my gym teacher would say, like, I would be doing the sit and reach. And they'd be like, no, but for real, you should try. I'm like, no, I am trying. I'm just not flexible.

[Matt]

The Presidential Fitness Challenge or whatever it was.

[Joel]

Yes. And I was horrible at it, largely because I'm not flexible at all.

[Matt]

But it's like you can do a decent number of jump ropes or whatever. I can't remember what else we got. The rul.

[Joel]

Sit and reach thing. Like, I was terrible.

[Matt]

Get your foot against the box. You have to, like, reach past.

[Joel]

Yes.

[Matt]

Not happening for Joel.

[Joel]

Couldn't do it, but I probably could. Right. If I started working on it and I wanted to get there and I was doing a certain amount of stretching every single day.

[Matt]

There's a way that you can forge it, Joel.

[Joel]

Right. I just need to make it a priority. My lower back would probably feel better if I did, too. But as James Clear says, Matt, I love this quote. He says the ultimate form of preparation is not planning for a specific scenario, but a mindset that can handle uncertainty. We didn't talk a lot about mindset. We talked a lot about. We tried to give a lot of practical advice in this episode a little bit.

[Matt]

Just as far as shifting your goals and changing what it is. That's an acceptable financial goal for you.

[Joel]

Yeah. And the truth is you can just shake your fist at the economic conditions. Right. Or you can adapt. You can. You can be the get off my lawn type person who is just angry at the situation, or you can make a change. And you can't plan for every potential scenario that might occur. That is true, but most of us have more wiggle room and more say over where our dollars go than we think. And the reality is that all of us can plan more effectively for uncertainty, which, of course is something you're going to regularly encounter for the rest of your life. Uncertainty, change, like you said earlier, Matt, is the only constant. Uncertainty is a reality of life. And so it's worth spending more time preparing yourself and your finances so that you can be more adaptable. Especially like, who knows what the future holds. We couldn't have predicted a lot of the things that are happening now. We don't know what's going to be happening over the next year or two. Will inflation be tamed? Will mortgage rates come down? We don't know. But the more adaptable and flexible you can be, the more you can take advantage of economic cycles as they shift.

[Matt]

You know it. All right, man, let's get back to our beer. You and I enjoyed on this episode six, which is a dark rye saison with layered malt flavors, pleasant stone and mineral notes, and a dry finish. I didn't even launch into my tasting notes yet.

[Joel]

That's what the bottle says.

[Matt]

Reading what the bottle said. This is by upright brewing out there in Portland, Oregon what were your thoughts on this one, buddy?

[Joel]

So when I opened this bottle, I thought saison. Great. I'm looking forward to this one. It was so very different than I expected, actually. I didn't think it was going to look like this or taste like this.

[Matt]

It didn't. Yeah. Didn't have those just typical traditional saison notes.

[Joel]

That being said, I liked it in a lot of ways. It was more like Belgian du Belle, in my opinion.

[Matt]

Oh, yeah.

[Joel]

It had like some of those spices. It was actually darker than I expected. Most saisons are lighter. It's not my favorite style, but it is a decent fall beer. Is kind of like the perfect time to drink it if we're going to drink this beer.

[Matt]

Early winter beer.

[Joel]

Yeah. So I'll say I liked it. Even though it was not what I was imagining.

[Matt]

Not what you were expecting when I popped the top. It kind of has like this unrefined character to it. Like, it almost kind of feels like. Tastes like a really good homebrew.

[Joel]

Oh, I was gonna say kind of like kinda like you. Unrefined.

[Matt]

Unrefined like me. So, like, the malts, I feel like are. I mean, you mentioned a double or dubel. I feel like it tastes more like a Belgian quad, but then without the big robust backbone.

[Joel]

Like, it's got those darker notes, some raisiny vibes.

[Matt]

Totally got the raisins going on. But it doesn't have those Belgian yeast that give it that super Belgian Y flavor. It just has those darker flavors. This real brown bread raisins. It wasn't overly sweet as well, so it definitely had that dry character, but simultaneously it was dark. Right. And so I feel like you don't often get dry and dark in the same bottle. Normally if it's dark, that means there's a lot of sugar in it. And so the fact that this is dark and dry, it's almost as if it doesn't compute. Like these two sort of flavors shouldn't belong together.

[Joel]

Kind of like an enigma beer.

[Matt]

Yeah. Yeah. It's very, very interesting. It's not a combination that you would expect, but I liked it. I would say pretty good. And it's always fun to have a beer, a different kind of beer than what we're typically used to, as well as a beer by a brewery that we've never had before. We've never had an upright brewing beer looks like it's got a bass cleft on that hop. So this is upright. I wonder if it's like a upright bass or something.

[Joel]

Oh, that could be.

[Matt]

I wonder if that's like the. The origins of this brewery. But appreciate you picking this one up and I'm glad that you and I got to share it today.

[Joel]

Agreed. All right, that's going to do it for this episode. If you want show notes, links to some of the articles or previous episodes we mentioned, you can find those up on our [e-mail] that's right, buddy.

[Matt]

So that's going to be it. Until next time.

[Joel]

Best friends out.

[Matt]

Best friends out. Joel, we've all got different tasks in life that we enjoy doing. For me, that would be closing out the books on our family's personal finances every month.

[Joel]

Nerd.

[Matt]

But then there are some chores that are more of a pain, and for me, that would be grocery shopping, something I try and avoid if at all possible.

[Joel]

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[Matt]

That's right, and for a limited time they're doing free 30 minute strategy sessions. So start today by booking a free strategy session with one of their experts by going to domainmoney.com howtomoney I am.

[Joel]

A current client of Domain Money. I received a financial plan as part of the compensation for Domain Money's advertising on the podcast, and therefore I have an incentive to promote Domain Money in.

[Shannon Schuyler]

A world of economic uncertainty and workplace transformation. Learn to Lead by Example from visionary C suite executives like Shannon Schuyler of PwC and Will Pearson of iHeartMedia, the Good Teacher explains the great teacher inspires.

[Matt]

Don'T always leave your team to do the work. That's been the most important part of how to lead by example.

[Shannon Schuyler]

Listen to Leading by Example executives making an impact on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.