Friday Flight - Discount Burnout, Bubble Trouble, & Rejoicing Renters (plus roadkill, gold bars, more...) #1056

Summary

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How to Money – Friday Flight: Discount Burnout, Bubble Trouble, & Rejoicing Renters (#1056)

Hosts: Joel & Matt
Date: October 31, 2025

Episode Overview

In this lively Friday Flight episode, Joel and Matt navigate the latest trends and news in personal finance, tackling everything from discount fatigue and market bubbles to the evolving rental market and the challenges young people face with credit. The episode is packed with insights, practical tips, and their trademark friendly banter, offering listeners actionable advice alongside a dose of humor—just in time for Halloween.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. The Reality of Discount Burnout

• Discount fatigue is real: With sales popping up constantly, Joel and Matt discuss how it’s getting harder to tell when a discount is meaningful (11:07).
  • Joel: “Retailers are just like pushing bargains in our direction constantly. Every time there’s a holiday, it’s a President’s Day sale. Woohoo.” (11:08)
  • Impact: Shoppers may feel overwhelmed and less motivated to chase deals, and often, deals are not as good as they appear.
• Use price tracking tools: The hosts recommend services like CamelCamelCamel and Slickdeals to view true price history and avoid “fake deals” (13:50).
  • Matt: “The new doing the work when it comes to shopping… is actually looking at the price history as opposed to fully relying on the tiny black price versus the new big red price.” (12:21)
• Value over price: They encourage listeners to embrace quality over quantity and to resist the urge to buy the cheapest thing on sale if it means sacrificing durability or long-term satisfaction (13:00).
  • Joel: “Buy once, cry once—you’re probably better off buying fewer, nicer things that’ll last you longer.” (13:03)

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2. Are We in a Stock Market (AI) Bubble?

• AI stocks and market froth: Matt and Joel debate if current valuations in the stock market, especially tech giants like Nvidia, are sustainable (14:14).
  • Matt: “Are stock prices… valued highly? Given historical standards, yes, that is the case. And... some specific companies [have] seen ridiculous stock price surges that may not actually be warranted? Also yes.” (14:44)
  • Notable Quote – Matt: “Valuations can’t be divorced from reality forever, but many bubble-predicting folks have been wrong for like years now.” (15:06)
• The danger of “bubble talk”: They point out that fearful headlines about bubbles have become constant since the dot-com crash, but the key is to know your risk tolerance and invest for the long term (15:58).
  • Joel: “A bearish outlook—a decline of 10-20%—is kind of table stakes every so many years on average.” (17:38)
• Market declines are normal: Historical data shows that 20% declines are guaranteed every 15 years, so don’t panic when volatility comes (17:38–17:55).

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3. Gold Bars, Bubbles & Leveraged ETFs

• Gold’s fleeting shine: The new hype around gold (and even buying gold bars at Costco) comes in for scrutiny. Despite recent price surges, long-term holders sometimes see decades of little to no gain (18:49).
  • Matt: “If you would have owned gold from 1979 to 2006, you would have actually lost money… it was like literally almost three lost decades.” (18:41)
  • Joel: “Most How to Money listeners who are in the wealth building phase of their life, owning much gold at all makes very little sense.” (19:29)
• Leveraged ETFs: Risky Business: Leveraged ETFs tempt investors with the chance of outsized gains but, more often, magnify losses and “price decay,” sometimes wiping out all capital (21:31–23:08).
  • Joel: “We want you all to stay away from leveraged ETFs. They are too hot to handle.” (23:08)
  • Matt: “Just because of volatility, you’re always going to see this thing… slow decay.” (23:08)

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4. Ludicrous Headline: Winning a Home Bidding War Isn’t Always Winning

• New data shows: Winning a bidding war on a home often leads to reduced equity growth, higher likelihood of default, and even a tendency to sell the house sooner—suggesting buyers are often overextending emotionally and financially (27:17).
  • Joel: “‘You might have won the battle and lost the war. It typically means you overpaid.’” (27:18)
  • Matt: “It’s when you are sticking future you with the decisions of your past. That’s right.” (28:22)

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5. Rejoicing Renters: The Changing Rental Market

• Renter’s market is returning: In cities like Atlanta and Austin, a glut of new supply has led to concessions (like months of free rent) and, in many cases, actual rent reductions, especially in multi-family apartments (30:37).
  • Matt: “Atlanta has added more than 100,000 apartment units in the past five years… Austin… a ton as well.” (30:34)
• Fraud on the rise: More fraudulent rental applications are surfacing, sometimes facilitated via TikTok, putting landlords on high alert (32:28).
  • Joel: “That’s why landlording is not for the faint of heart… It’s fairly easy to get taken advantage of.” (33:26)
  • Matt: “As landlords, you have to be even more cautious now… There’s people on TikTok trying to game the system” (35:16)
• Advice: Properly vet tenants, even if it means risk of higher vacancy.

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6. The Credit Challenge for Today’s Young Adults

• Credit scores declining, especially for Gen Z: As student loan payments resume, more young people miss payments, dinging their credit (35:45).
• Harder than ever to build credit: Thanks to CARD Act regulations and fewer credit-building opportunities, building a robust credit profile is uniquely tough now.
  • Joel: “It’s harder for young people to get a credit card… Young people are relying more on debit cards and buy now, pay later—neither of which are helping them build their credit score.” (36:54)
• Solutions:
  • College and secured credit cards; credit builder loans (e.g., from Self) (37:50).
  • Add kids as authorized users on parent cards to “jumpstart” their credit (38:12).

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On Black Friday fatigue
  • Joel: “Shoppers are experiencing discount fatigue. If every weekend there’s a sale, how good is the actual sale?” (11:07)
• On gold hype:
  • Matt: “If you would have owned gold from 1979 to, let’s say, 2006, you would have actually lost money.” (18:41)
• On renting fortunes turning:
  • Joel: “This is… what the housing market needed—we needed more supply, we got more supply, and now we’re seeing those prices come down.” (32:06)
• On leveraged ETF dangers:
  • Joel: “You can go all the way to zero, as one fund did… their money went to zero.” (22:32)
• On credit building:
  • Matt: “This is another great reason to add your kids to your credit card as an authorized user.” (37:58)

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Segment Timestamps

• [02:34] Episode theme: Discount burnout, stock market bubbles, and renters
• [10:39] Thanksgiving deals and the evolution of Black Friday
• [11:07] Discount fatigue and how to shop smarter
• [13:50] Price tracking tools and smart deal hunting
• [14:14] Market bubbles and hot stocks like Nvidia
• [18:41] The illusion of gold as a safe, long-term investment
• [21:31] The risks of leveraged ETFs explained
• [27:17] Ludicrous headline: Bidding wars can be a bad deal
• [30:37] Good news for renters: falling prices and rising supply
• [32:28] Fraudulent rental applications & landlord cautions
• [35:45] Gen Z’s struggles with credit scores & how to help
• [37:58] Pro tips on helping your kids build strong credit

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Tone, Language, and Takeaways

Joel and Matt maintain a relaxed, witty, and conversational tone, peppering in personal anecdotes (roadkill stories, Halloween candy raids, Thanksgiving meal hacks) while keeping a sharp eye on macro trends and actionable financial advice. Their approach resonates for listeners of all experience levels and emphasizes intentional decision-making—whether avoiding “discount burnout” or prepping your kids for financial independence.

Final Advice:

• Use tech and common sense to shop smarter.
• Keep investing with a long-term mindset—ignore the market noise.
• Consider renting or buying based on your life stage and local trends.
• Avoid financial “innovations” you don’t truly understand (leveraged ETFs!).
• Help younger generations overcome today’s credit-building hurdles.

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Happy Halloween and happy Friday flight!

Transcript

[Matt]

This is an iHeart podcast.

[Joel]

If you've been listening to the show for a while, you know we care a lot about being intentional with our money and that includes how we give it away.

[Matt]

That is why we are big fans of Daffy, which is a modern donation platform and app for charitable giving that is also a donor advised fund, which means you can contribute cash, stock, ETFs or even crypto. You take the tax deduction right away and then send the money to over one and a half million charities, schools and other faith based organizations whenever you want with the funds that you've already set aside.

[Joel]

I've personally been using it to send recurring donations for causes I really care about like my church and a local nonprofit called Blueprint 58.

[Matt]

Same here. Yeah, I've got recurring donations going to my kids school. DAFY also keeps your receipts organized for tax season. But the best part is DAFI itself is a nonprofit with a mission to help people to be more generous more often. So if you want a better system for your giving, head to Daffy.org howtomoney and for a limited time you'll even get $25 to give to the charity of your choice. Visit Daffy.org howtomone today.

[Joel]

Hey, it's Joel and Matt from how to Money. I was just in Seattle, Matt, and honestly, it's one of the greatest cities in the world. Particularly in the summer. I went on this run by the water. We hopped a ferry across Puget Sound. Just an unforgettable trip.

[Matt]

That's what struck me. What seems normal to a homeowner? It can be the thing that makes a guest trip really special.

[Joel]

Which is why hosting your home on Airbnb makes sense, right? Travelers are looking for those authentic, memorable spaces and if you don't have time to manage all that well, Airbnb's Co host feature makes it easy. A local co host can help with everything from creating the listing to keeping your place running smooth.

[Matt]

Find a co [e-mail] host I love entrepreneurship. I have been a small business owner for almost 20 years now, but it is tough to separate work from life. The business can be on your mind 24 7. So when you are hiring you need a partner that works just as hard as you do. And that hiring partner is LinkedIn Jobs. LinkedIn makes it easy to post your job for free, share it with your network and get qualified candidates that you can manage all in one place.

[Joel]

Here's how it works. Post your job for free or you can pay to promote share with your network you can let your network know that you're hiring. You can even add a hiring frame to your profile picture and. And get two times more qualified candidates. So post your job for [e-mail] howtomoney that's LinkedIn.com howtomoney to post your job for free. Terms and conditions apply. Welcome to How TO Money. I'm Joel.

[Matt]

I'm Matt.

[Joel]

Today we're talking discount burnout, bubble trouble, and rejoicing Renter. That's right.

[Matt]

And before we go anywhere, Happy Halloween to everyone who celebrates the festival of. To all who celebrate candies.

[Joel]

Wait, I feel like you should have said it in a spooky voice or something like that.

[Matt]

Now, how come they don't call it spooky season anymore?

[Joel]

Did they used to?

[Matt]

Yes.

[Joel]

Oh, really?

[Matt]

We talked about spooky season here on the show. Forget the culture.

[Joel]

Spooky season. I just don't. I never hear people refer to it.

[Matt]

Instead of Happy Halloween. I don't know. It's just like the time around Halloween.

[Joel]

It's kinda like Happy Holidays instead of, I guess more generic, I guess. Okay.

[Matt]

But yeah, it's fun. It's fun for Halloween to follow.

[Joel]

Are you dressing Friday?

[Matt]

No.

[Joel]

Halloween on a Friday is the best. It is the best. I'm so pumped. My kids.

[Matt]

It's gonna be a good one.

[Joel]

Oh, gosh. Yeah. Because you can stay up later. You don't have to worry about hangover.

[Matt]

The next day coming over later, right?

[Joel]

Yeah. All right, we're gonna.

[Matt]

Let's go.

[Joel]

We gonna hit those houses and then I'm gonna steal as much. Not literally.

[Matt]

You're not gonna smash pumpkins and roll.

[Joel]

But we're gonna get as much candy as we can, and then I'm gonna steal from my kids.

[Matt]

Are you gonna do candy buyback?

[Joel]

Oh, no. I know.

[Matt]

And my kids were even asking, like, weeks ago.

[Joel]

They're like, are you going to eat it all?

[Matt]

Then some of it we toss.

[Joel]

Okay, give it to me.

[Matt]

The cheaper stuff. You don't want the candy, though. It's not good for you.

[Joel]

I don't mind.

[Matt]

We will keep some around. We'll keep a token amount around for. Okay, everyone grab a piece. We're going to go on a hike. We call it, like a hike hiking treat because then you've kind of, like, earned it. You're literally just immediately burning. Burning those calories and, like, using that fuel as opposed to, like, sitting there watching tv just like shoving your face with chocolate bars.

[Joel]

I'll just, like, raid their. Can I get one or two a night? And before I go to bed, they're small. There's like, they're so tiny.

[Matt]

It just depends on where you are. Trick or treat.

[Joel]

Like barely exists so it melts in your mouth.

[Matt]

Well, I didn't say what this was. This is our Friday flight. And if you care about your money, if you care about financial independence at some point in your life and you want to be smarter with your money, this is the episode where we talk about what's going on in the world and how that's going to impact your ability to be smart with your money.

[Joel]

We also do that, by the way, in the how to Money newsletter, which is coming back. We've had a lot of people reach out. It's going to drop in your email inbox on Tuesday.

[Matt]

Thank you for being patient. All your folks out there who've been asking about it.

[Joel]

How TwoMoney.com Newsletter Real quick, frugal or cheap? Before we get to all the stories, Matt, I was on USA Today's website this week, their money section, and the headline I was shocked to see was about whether or not eating roadkill was legal in most states. And apparently, apparently there are different rules depending on what state you're in and what animal it is that's been. There should be rules smacked by the car around that. I'm curious.

[Matt]

Oh, my gosh. I literally saw biking into work today. There was a hit deer, a buck like it.

[Joel]

Of all the animals.

[Matt]

Well, that's the kind you probably, if you were a connoisseur of venison.

[Joel]

So your take, frugal or cheap?

[Matt]

No, that's awful. Oh, this makes me think of, well, you remember, okay, Michael Easters, we had him, friend of the show. In his book, I think he talked about this lady who he basically profiled her and she would do that for her pet. She was super crunchy, maybe lived in a vehicle, was like kind of a nomad, was super active. And she would do that for her dog. But she would also know that she could tell if it was fresh or not.

[Joel]

She would get roadkill and mince it up, process her animal for her dog.

[Matt]

Which is, man, there's a part of me that really loves that, the efficiency there. Nothing's going to waste. That's like the Native American way, right? Like, you use every part of the animal. It's like whole hog barbecue.

[Joel]

I wish I had that fortitude.

[Matt]

Yeah, I don't when it comes to, when it comes to this, it's just.

[Joel]

A funny story to see in the money section of a newspaper. And I Just, I thought it'd be fun to talk about, but I think both of you and I would land on cheap. But if there is someone in the how to money community who does pick up roadkill and eats it or does something productive with it, please let us know. I'd love to hear.

[Matt]

I was thinking through. Okay, I see. Because that buck that I saw, it had antlers.

[Joel]

Yeah.

[Matt]

And I'm like, I've always wanted some antlers to put. Like. We've kind of got like this nature part we were inspired by when we went to the Monticello Jefferson's home and he had just amazing things. Obviously, as president, people send you stuff and you kind of collect things over the years, but it's just a cool way to see different aspects of nature. But then also things from other countries as well. And so I think, okay, that could be something that we'd add to the nature board.

[Joel]

But I.

[Matt]

As I was thinking through, okay, what would I actually do? Would I go here and, like, try to pop these off? Like, they just feel.

[Joel]

I'm just.

[Matt]

I'm not for it, man. I can't. I don't know. Maybe my inexperience with hunting deer leads me to be a bit squeamish around even considering doing something like that. But I'm not. I. I'm not willing to. I'm willing to pick up some alers if I came across them on a trail or something. That sounds super cool. I'd be super stoked. What a find. But not on a recently killed deer.

[Joel]

Reminds me of my first Thanksgiving in Mississippi with my wife. Some of my wife's family, and one of the. One of the dudes had. He had killed a deer and he had it strung up and he was skinning it, and I was like, all right, that's awesome, man. Like, this is cool.

[Matt]

I'd be all about learning from.

[Joel]

So different than how I grew up, though.

[Matt]

Completely agree. I did not. Yeah, I did not grow up in a hunting family. Although, man, isn't that like the most. I don't know if it's cost effective, but again, you know, animals, resources, not going to waste. There is something about that that appeals to me. But enough of this conversation. That might be leaving some listeners feeling a little queasy, little nauseous. Let's talk about inflation, because sticky inflation, that's not a term we've used recently, but it is actually pretty sticky.

[Joel]

Still hanging out at 3%.

[Matt]

3%. The Fed's target is 2%, so we're still solid. 50% over that. Although much less than where we were years ago when we were closer to closer to 8%. We've seen prices rise still with certain items. Joel, have you actually I was wondering if you found yourself shying away from certain items compared to others because of.

[Joel]

Where prices have gone specifically. What have you cut back on specifically beef, beef prices and optic more chicken.

[Matt]

Yeah, it made me think about recently. Oh hey, you'll get to experience the results of this tonight at our house.

[Joel]

Whatever.

[Matt]

But a cocktail total wine Spirits Direct, it's like their in house brand and you can get. It's significantly cheaper than getting some of the name brands and there are some pretty decent products out there when it comes to. So there's a good amaretto that Spirits Direct has. I've actually gotten a smoky scotch that's real solid as well. And so I thought why not with Mezcal? Give it a shot. Not so great. Oh really? Yeah. I do not recognize. I don't even know the name of it. But that was, that was an instance to where I'm like, man, I wonder if there's a way for me to rein in some of these high prices going for the spirits Direct. Realizing that in this case it wasn't going to cut it had I ended up going back. The green bottle. Yeah, I know. You know the green bottle that's got the cool graphics.

[Joel]

Oh yeah, yeah.

[Matt]

The good stuff, man. Yeah, it's really, really tough to pass that up. But on a related note, there is some relief when it comes to the price of Thanksgiving. The price is going down, man. At least at Aldi and Walmart too. But I like talking about Aldi so I'm going to focus on that. 40 bucks is going to get you all you need to feed 10 folks, which isn't bad. Four dol. That includes turkey and most of the sides that folks come to expect there at Thanksgiving.

[Joel]

Mashed taters, the cranberry Mac and cheese.

[Matt]

Although yeah, it's tough to go back to the prepackaged style Mac and cheese which you've had my wife's with the.

[Joel]

Shells which is based on real stuff at our house.

[Matt]

Yeah, it's based on one of our favorite barbecue barbecue spots that had the best giant shells Mac and cheese. But just a reminder here, where you shop for food can have a massive impact on your budget. And if you have an Aldi close by, at least consider it if you've never been in before. And that's all I'm going to say.

[Joel]

So we got Thanksgiving coming up and Thanksgiving always makes Me think, and it probably shouldn't, but we host a money podcast, so it always triggers my mind to think about Black Friday. Black Friday shopping season. Almost. Almost here. And as you and I've noted before on the show, Black Friday, it's not really a day anymore. It used to be right the Friday after Thanksgiving, but now it's become like a season. And with, I think when Prime Day first came about, Matt, there was like one Prime Day. Now there's multiple Prime Days every year.

[Matt]

And summer Prime Day too.

[Joel]

Yeah. And then there's. There's a proliferation of discount sites where you can buy stuff that didn't get sold maybe, or stuff at a significantly discounted price. It feels like retailers are just like pushing bargains in our direction constantly. Every time there's a holiday, it's a President's Day sale. Woohoo. What's interesting to note is shoppers are experiencing discount fatigue. That's according to a new report that came out this week. I think this discount fatigue reflects a couple of things. Like one, as prices have risen quickly, price tracking has kind of become harder. People are just like, I'm assuming I'm paying more. I guess this is what it costs now. Two, sales don't always reflect a great price. If every weekend there's a sale, well, how good is the actual sale? And if a sale is more infrequent, you might assume that you're getting a better value. And so I think there's a couple ways to think about this. One, use sites that track previous prices. That's a really helpful thing. There are sites out there that allow you to track the last 30 to 90 days of pricing on an item. So when something looks like it's discounted by 70%, well, is it actually 70% off? Or is it actually really just 10% off? And they're often charging 60% less than the actual price.

[Matt]

Yeah, that's the new. Doing the work when it comes to shopping is clicking through two more clicks and actually looking at the price history as opposed to fully relying on the tiny black price versus the new big red price.

[Joel]

Right, I know.

[Matt]

And being triggered by that, that, oh, this must be a good deal.

[Joel]

But I think that is what happens so often. We just assumed right, as individuals that when the Internet came about it'd be easier to price shop. And it's actually in some ways become harder. I think there's something else that's happening here too. There are signs that we are prioritizing value over the lowest possible price. And I think of that as Like a pretty good thing. I think it's a good idea when you can pay less or something to pay less for it and not to just be a sale shopper buying the cheapest thing possible. But it's also, you know, you and I talk about this regularly. Matt. The buy once, cry once movement, like buying fewer things, buying nicer things that are going to last you longer is probably better than just being one of those people who's like habitually in tune with sales because I think that can lead you astray more in today's environment than, than ever before.

[Matt]

That's true. Have we mentioned popcorn? One of the listener who reached out who's putting together this site where they're using the AI to do price comparison.

[Joel]

I don't think we've talked about it.

[Matt]

We should, we should. I mean they're still working on it, but it's a great way to. If you are looking at price per unit, that's one of the things that they're breaking down less a singular item that you're looking at the previous history. But again another site that is using utilizing the technology available to us to hopefully get folks the best deal. So check that out.

[Joel]

And if you want price history, by the way, Campbell, Campbell. Campbell's a good one. And slick deals. When you're looking at the deals that they put out there, oftentimes they list that last 90 days.

[Matt]

What about on Amazon when you click it, the price history because they've got it built in.

[Joel]

Do you trust it on Camel, Camel.

[Matt]

Camel or with Amazon even within Amazon because it'll tell you that like, oh, this is cheaper than normal.

[Joel]

Yeah, I prefer, I prefer third party.

[Matt]

Yeah, I think the third party is most likely to be a bit more bulletproof. Joel, you said bubble trouble. Let's talk about the stock market. We're going to weigh in on whether we think AI stocks are overvalued or undervalued.

[Joel]

Sell, sell, sell.

[Matt]

I'm all in on Nvidia.

[Joel]

Are you? I'm going to Short intel first 5 trillion dollar company. I did see a headline and it kind of shocked me. Temporarily 5 trillion Nvidia's. The value of that company is more than I think the whole GDP of Germany.

[Matt]

Oh my gosh.

[Joel]

It's hard to fathom.

[Matt]

Yeah. And I guess Apple hit the 4 trillion mark earlier this week. But are stock prices, are they valued highly? Given historical standards, yes, that is the case. And let's say have some specific companies seen ridiculous stock price surges that may not actually be warranted? Also yes, but there are many why factors. Part of which is fear of missing out.

[Joel]

I'll say, right.

[Matt]

Investors, they see these massive gains they want in making the prices even frothier valuations, they can't be divorced from reality forever. But it's also super important to note that many of the bubble predicting folks out there, they've been wrong for like years now. These are folks who this is just the drum that they continually beat. I saw a chart about the number of times bubbles were mentioned in media and it was actually pretty low up until the, I guess it was the dot com. But then after the dot com bubble it was just constantly referred back to.

[Joel]

Right.

[Matt]

And so I think it's sort of this attraction to potentially scary things. Negative news. But the question is, will stocks plateau for a while or are we going to see meaningful declines? It is hard to say obviously. And you know, let's talk about this in a couple years.

[Joel]

Rearview mirror is easier.

[Matt]

Hindsight 20 20. Right. But the crucial thing to do now is just to know your risk tolerance, know your timeline, know how long you're willing to have that money tied up. Because even if there are declines, historically speaking, the stock market goes up and to the right.

[Joel]

And there's just so many times where even think back to the tariff reality. And I'm not saying that tariffs aren't having an impact and haven't had an impact, but when you look at what's happened with stock prices, the new tariff regime has not necessarily led to an assault on the stock market and to company valuations. Even the opposite has been true. Are we in a bubble? That's such a hard question to answer and you really do only know in hindsight. But what are you prepared to do about it if we are? Because oftentimes bubbles can last for a long time. Makes me think of an article I saw on Yahoo Finance about the term bearish being in the eye of the beholder and financial writer Sam Rowe. He did a great job tackling this topic. He doesn't think that predictions of a pullback are bearish. His argument was essentially that double digit stock market declines, they should be expected and they are a regular part of an investor's journey. And so if you're an investor who doesn't expect volatility, you should be concerned about your potential emotional reaction when that volatility eventually comes to pass. And I think I put Sam in our camp as a self prescribed long term optimist and short term cautious optimist is what he calls himself. I think that's a Good way for how to money listeners to think. Realize that a bearish outlook, a decline of 10, 20% in the stock market is kind of table stakes every so many years on average.

[Matt]

That's what the data shows. Yeah, right. Like not just double digit decline, like literally 20% declines.

[Joel]

Right.

[Matt]

And chart in there. And they were highlighting how 15 year periods of time you are 100% guaranteed to experience a 20% decline. And we've actually seen three of them since 2018, which is pretty significant.

[Joel]

That's crazy.

[Matt]

Isn't that crazy? 2018, 2020, obviously during the pandemic and 2022 as well. But like that's the norm. And so if you are thinking that we aren't going to experience one of those, actually, as he wrote, he said, buckle up, make sure your stock market seat belt is buckled. But let's talk about gold. Because the price of gold has been at sky high prices. We've seen it decline since I guess last week or a couple weeks ago. But it is so important to look not just at the recent history, at the recent high prices of gold. Because if you would have owned gold from 1979 to, let's say 2006, you would have actually lost money. It wasn't just a lost decade. It was like literally like almost three lost decades.

[Joel]

Yeah. Gold's getting all the headlines down. Everybody's like, why? Why am I not investing in gold? And it's like, well, yeah, maybe don't look at just the past year or two. Look at the long time horizon.

[Matt]

You can't look at the fact that it's up nearly 60% this year. Right. And you know, everyone wants to own some of it. We don't own any, largely because it's not. Well, I take that back. I own a very small amount and actually I have one little gold coin that's like a tenth of an ounce.

[Joel]

You keep it under your bed.

[Matt]

I pull it out during St. Patrick's Day.

[Joel]

Okay.

[Matt]

It's like a little bit of house decoration. And we show the kids, they're like, that's real gold. We're like, yeah, but that's literally as useful as it gets at this point. Which is why that is all the gold I own versus actual companies, actual stocks or companies that are producing goods and services that benefit not only our economy, but the entire world.

[Joel]

Pardon me. Wanted to buy a gold bar at Costco just because. Just have a gold. Just to be able to tell people that I owned a gold bar. I realized why investors flock to gold for some reasons. But I Think most how to money listeners, especially younger how to money listeners who are in the wealth building phase of their life, owning much gold at all makes very little sense. Although it becomes super attractive. Right. As the price has risen significantly. It's really easy to question yourself and be like, why don't I have significant gold exposure? And then if you just, yeah, zoom out on that timeline a little bit, it'll be a little bit easier to understand maybe why you don't include it in your portfolio.

[Matt]

Yeah.

[Joel]

How much.

[Matt]

How much did that bar of gold cost? How much did it weigh? Do you know the.

[Joel]

The Costco one? I think it was one ounce. And I want to say I don't remember.

[Matt]

Whatever the price of gold.

[Joel]

Yeah, exactly. They were like, with a very small markup and they would sell out almost instantly.

[Matt]

But then you could have done the gold flex.

[Joel]

I could have been like, yeah, I got a gold bar. Yeah, I got gold bars in my house. But then that attracts, you know, thieves and nefarious types you don't want to talk about.

[Matt]

Isn't that so nice that most of our wealth is tied up in ways that are not accessible in real life? I think that's great.

[Joel]

I agree. Okay, let's talk about one more risky financial asset that people are jumping in on. And this is talking about a bubble. But I think this is one of the signs of maybe irrational exuberance in the investing space. Leveraged ETFs are becoming more popular. And as investors, leverage can cut both ways. Right. It can increase your earnings when things are going well and it can leave you more exposed when they're not. So these leveraged ETFs, that come with a lot higher costs. That's.

[Matt]

That's the first downside.

[Joel]

Yeah, that's the thing that's always present, Right. In some of these fancier financial products is that it's going to cost you a lot more. But then on top of that, it's leaving a lot of people broken and bloodied by the side of the road as their leveraged ETF comes crashing back down to earth. And some of these ETFs are like 2x leverage, some are 5x leverage, which is. Can, yeah, massively amplify gains over the course of a day or a week or something like that. But it can also do the same on the loss side.

[Matt]

Yeah, I mean, well, I think that's one of the downsides to it too, is that it's not just. It's not simply. It's not like a straightforward amplification because I Think some folks would hear that and be like, well, I can handle the volatility, I can handle the extreme ups and the extreme downs. But what they don't realize, and this is where I think these products prey on folks that don't understand them, is that when you are, when you essentially imagine the stock drops, right? And then you are invested In a leveraged ETF, you. So you drop. It drops 5x or maybe just 2x, which might be a little.

[Joel]

If it goes down 2%, then you're down 10%, right.

[Matt]

And so but then when it rebounds, you are starting out in a hole. And so that's the, that's the hole that's really tough to claw your way out of. And then because someone might say, okay, well I'll just wait for it to rebound and then I'll be back on top again even more. So that's not how it works at all. And there's folks who are learning that the hard, the hard way. Yeah, I almost think of it like sequence of returns risk. It's that initial decline, that underperformance. And then all of a sudden you are literally, quite literally, as you're looking at a chart, fighting an uphill battle.

[Joel]

And you can go all the way to zero, as one fund did. It was a leveraged inverse AMD etf. So like the chip maker, so stupid, the stock was crushing. And so anybody who invested in that fund, like their money went to zero. And so yeah, there was another example of a Tesla leveraged etf. And yeah, the stock's up on the year, but the leveraged ETF is down significantly. And so because of that sequence of returns risk that you're talking about, Matt, that's. Yeah, so it's a problem. So out of money listeners, we want you all to stay away from Leverage ETFs. They are too hot to handle.

[Matt]

Yeah, well, and specifically a term that they used is called price decay, which is a great way of thinking about it as well, which is that like just because of volatility, you're just always going to see this thing, the price of this thing slow decay because you are going to experience losses which is going to set you back, put you in the hole. But Joel, we got more to get to. We will touch on student loans and how they are impacting folks personal finances. That and more right after this.

[Joel]

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[Matt]

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[Joel]

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[Matt]

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[Joel]

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[Matt]

It makes me think you mentioned kids, Joel. I might be done having kids at this point, but my friends, my neighbors, they aren't. I've got family members who have a fresh baby at home as well and it is such an amazing season of life. But those changes should also bring about a reassessment of whether or not you've got your estate planning ducks all in a row. Trust and Will makes it simple and straightforward. Their easy to use website is simple to navigate and plus all your information, all your documents, they are securely stored with bank level encryption.

[Joel]

Add some peace of mind to your future with Trust and will go to trustandwill.com howtomoney for 20% off, that's 20% [e-mail] howtomoney all right, Matt, we back. Let's get to the ludicrous headline. We are back of the week. This one comes from a website called the Conversation. I love conversations. Sounds reasonable. One of my favorite things, as opposed to the argument, the fight. Yeah, yeah. The Conversation sounds more civil.

[Matt]

Yeah.

[Joel]

So the headline reads winning a bidding war isn't always a win. Research on 14 million home sales shows this I think is a good, it's a good thing for us to cover here because in the real estate market there are far fewer bidding wars right now. But there still exists, especially in some of the markets that remain a little tighter. I think for a lot of people, winning a bidding war on a home can feel great because you got the house you won. Right. But you might have won the battle and lost the war. It typically means when you win a bidding war that you got emotionally attached to a property and you overpaid. And that's kind of what this article was getting at. There was a real estate economist who analyzed millions of deals and they found that not only did people who won a bidding war see a lot less returns in terms of equity growth, which makes sense. You paid a higher premium and so equity growth is going to be slower because you might have paid more than the house is worth, but they were also more likely to default on their mortgage, which also kind of makes sense. They might have bit off more than they could chew. Right.

[Matt]

It's when you are sticking future, you with the decisions of your past. That's right. Yeah. It's gonna be more difficult to stick with that.

[Joel]

And the thing I didn't see coming, those people also tend to sell their home more quickly in the future, which I don't know if they're just like, oh, man, I guess I did. It was an emotional decision. And I don't love this house like I thought.

[Matt]

Actually, this house sucks.

[Joel]

I thought I had to win and now I ultimately lost. And that's like a lethal cocktail for people. As the housing market has cooled again, seeing fewer bidding wars. But not entering into a bidding war is probably really wise. If you are a home buyer and you're getting attached to a home, well, rethink whether or not it's actually worth going head to head with somebody else and trying to outbid someone to get that specific property, or whether it's worth going back to the drawing board and looking at more homes.

[Matt]

Yeah, I'll push back a little bit on like the emotional attachment because I think it's okay to get emotionally attached to things. You just can't let that make the best. You can't let that outweigh your better judgment. Especially when it comes to like, finances. Right. Like, I think about my kids, I'm emotionally attached to them and they might be like, that's dumb. Can you buy me a phone? And it's up to me to say, oh, I love you so much. I'm. I'm very emotionally attached to you. But I'm not going to let that dictate what, like some poor financial decision.

[Joel]

I think you need to undo the emotional attachment. That's the way forward here.

[Matt]

Yeah. So I don't know.

[Joel]

I think it's different getting mentally attached to a human versus emotionally attached to a home. You've never.

[Matt]

Well, it's okay to have emotions and to be excited about a home, but you still have to enter into that transaction very level headed. And of course, what you're pointing at here is that when you get in a bidding war, you tend to push that side of your brain, like, no, no, no, you shut up. I'm going to. I want to let the emotions, like win out today as opposed to thinking about, oh, can I actually service this mortgage? Or will I be forced into a position right to where I have to end up selling this thing sooner than I would like. On a housing note, renters continue to have the up in the housing market. Joel. After years of backbreaking rent increases, we're actually seeing decreases in many markets and new units. New buildings are having to offer months of free rent to try and avoid these high vacancy rates. And the reason? Well, it's the increased supply. For instance, Atlanta has added more than 100,000 apartment units in the past five years. Austin, I don't even know their number. Off the top of my head.

[Joel]

They've.

[Matt]

They've built a ton as well.

[Joel]

At least 50,000. And so much rents. If you look at the chart, rent declines in Austin have been significant.

[Matt]

Yeah. And I will say too, this is. When you look at some of the data, it's hard to distinguish between multifamily and single family. I was trying to dig around some in the BLS as to what data they have on hand and what data the Fed is putting out there. I couldn't find anything that's specific to multifamily versus single family. But what they did have was primary rents in urban environments for all consumers. And so it includes single family and multifamily. And you are still seeing an increase. It has definitely slowed down. It almost looks like it might be a plateau. But the fact that there are increases tells me that there are still maybe slight increases when it comes to single family. That's essentially bullying some of the multifamily.

[Joel]

Yeah. Because more. More of an apartment glut then.

[Matt]

Exactly.

[Joel]

So single family homes are more insulated.

[Matt]

But how long is that going to last? I don't know. That's the thing that's yet to be determined, man.

[Joel]

Yeah, and that's. It is interesting to know. I mean, I remember getting a lot of those emails and listener questions, especially during the heart of the pandemic, as people were experiencing insane rent increases, which was super frustrating. And it was really hard to kind of tell people, hey, well, this is like. This is an economic cycle that's happening. It's happening for a reason. But what that incentiviz those higher prices, incentivize more building. And now that we have a glut of apartments and less demand, we're starting to see the comedown. Especially. Especially in certain cities that were dramatically overbuilt.

[Matt]

Yeah.

[Joel]

So I think this is. In large ways what the housing market needed was. Yeah, we needed more supply, we got more supply, and now we're seeing those prices come down. That's right. Something else, Matt, that's not great for landlords, though. Fraudulent rental applications. Have you ever experienced this where someone tried to, like, lie to you?

[Matt]

No. Okay. Well, I don't know, actually. Maybe, but not actually any tenants. I've actually gone with, okay, I saw this Article. Yeah. Basically like this is the, the packages that are being sold to tenants.

[Joel]

People are TikTok literally saying, hey, listen, by my package I'll make sure you get the apartment that you buy in luxury apartment even though you don't have the income or credit score related qualifying.

[Matt]

Yeah. So they're falsifying employment records, tenant history, all sorts of documents. And the worst part, dude, that I remember reading was the fact that some of these units, because they are trying to keep vacancy at reasonable levels, if not eliminate them altogether, they are enticing folks with like, hey, you know what, we're not gonna budge on the rent, but we'll give you the first two months free. So you got folks who are living, they're occupying those units and then they don't pay that third rent or that third month's worth of rent. And then the fourth month and then they realize, oh wait a minute, this is somebody who doesn't actually have the funds on hand. And they're like five months in before they start.

[Joel]

But the eviction process, and sometimes they last even longer. Easily. Yeah. Which is because the eviction process can take a while as well. And it can be onerous. And I think this just reflects too that landlords need to be cautious. And that's why landlording is not for the faint of heart. Because there are. It's fairly easy to get taken advantage of. I feel like the basic thing back in the day was listing your friend as your previous landlord. And so you, as the landlord who's calling the previous landlord, you. You don't really have any meaningful way to verify whether that person is actually the landlord or if it's like just their roommate. And so you had to be, even.

[Matt]

If they were at a place that was more official, where there is a good record of them paying or not paying, they could instead just write down, oh no, I'll stay in here.

[Joel]

Right. And that's where we talk about the importance of vetting tenants. How it's literally the most important thing as a rental property owner. Or you can easily, you can mess up, right. And get someone in your house to reduce vacancy that ends up harming your house more or doesn't. Yeah. Isn't paying rent. And then you've got the hassle of getting that person out of your house. And so I think vacancy reduction is a good goal to have, but not at the expense of getting someone in there who's not going to pay rent because then you're in a worse pickle than you were before.

[Matt]

Totally agree. Actually, in A recent property I had come up, he did have his. Like, he lived with a friend, right. And so it's like, okay, this could have been sort of a fishy sort of scenario. I didn't suspect that he was falsifying anything. But you know what was really helpful is the company that he worked for, a buddy of mine actually works at as well. And so the ability to kind of like, oh, sweet. It felt so much more robust.

[Joel]

Do you know this human?

[Matt]

Yeah, he's just like, oh, yeah, actually. And we kind of talked about that a little bit. A great employer. And you can't always verify in that way, but man, I guess I got lucky in that way to be like, okay, sweet. I got zero concerns about you lying about anything.

[Joel]

When really there's so much information you can dig into whether it's credit score, getting actual pay stubs. But as landlords, you have to be even more cautious now. Yes, there's people on TikTok trying to get in the system.

[Matt]

If they're just like, hey, I got all that for you. You don't need to run the background check that's going to cost you 35, 45 bucks. Let me just provide all that for you. Because they've already paid for it as well.

[Joel]

Just happens to be not true, right?

[Matt]

In some cases. I don't want to make it sound like that everyone out there is out there is falsifying information and has zero intent to pay.

[Joel]

But it is a growing problem. Let's talk about credit scores, Matt. They've been dropping across the board, especially when we're talking about younger Americans. Credit scores dropping meaningfully. A large part of the reason why is because student loan payments have resumed and there's a decent segment of the population who's like, I can't afford to pay my student loan right now. The New York Times had an article essentially about how it's harder for Gen Z to build credit than it has in the past because it's harder to build credit. Their credit scores aren't as good as they would have been maybe in decades past. We know by now that lower credit scores have all sorts of negative downstream impacts, whether it's somebody looking to rent a place and their credit score is not great and they don't get the apartment they want or the house they want. There's just all sorts of downsides of not having a great credit score. And the truth is, it actually is harder for young people to get a credit card to get to start building that credit score than it was 20 years ago. Because of the Card act in particular. And in some ways the Card act was great, right? College students, they used to be the target of credit card companies on campus. They'd get a free football or a free pizza or something like that, and they'd sign up for a credit card. And then way too many of those young folks would go hog wild. They learn about credit card debt the hard way by racking up a ton of it. But now it's almost impossible. It's really hard to get your first credit card. And young people are relying more on debit cards and buy now, pay later, neither of which are helping them build their credit score. So I think the thing worth mentioning is there are specific credit cards for young people, College credit cards that start with a small limit, that are easier to get when you're in your early 20s. Secured credit cards and credit builder loans from companies like Self, they might be the best option for young folks who don't have many other choices. But yeah, be careful out there in the credit space. Handle your credit wisely. But I realize that it's harder as a young person out there right now when it comes to getting that credit started, getting good credit built so that you have a good credit profile to bring into your everyday life and those bigger financial decisions that you have to make.

[Matt]

Sure, yeah. This is another great reason to add your kids to your credit card as an authorized user. If you handle your credit well, you can help your youngins build a pretty robust credit score years, nay, decades before they'll actually need it in their 20s.

[Joel]

Joel. Yeah, that's true.

[Matt]

We're, I'd say we are less keen on saving and investing massive chunks of money for your kids, but to each their own. But regardless, passing on important personal finance knowledge is a necessity. Like that is our job as parents, right? Like we need to inoculate them and not shelter them from all things in life, right? Like we would need. Gotta find ways to reasonably introduce them to different ideas and to things that at higher levels might like, significantly harm them.

[Joel]

That's why I'm taking my kids bungee jumping this weekend.

[Matt]

You'd start by just jumping off the.

[Joel]

Roof, put a mattress down there onto.

[Matt]

The trampoline or something like that. Not that bad. That is preparing them for the road as opposed to preparing the road for them. And I see, you know, helping them with their credit and avoiding some of the woes that come with trying to initially get credit in their 20s. Like this is more akin to giving them the tools to succeed as opposed to giving them like straight up cash. But over time, the effective use of the small amount of credit that you are given like that is what's going to help you to build that robust score. It's going to help you to have access to larger lines of credit. And I'm not talking about the ability to take out personal loans or anything, but primarily a mortgage, the ability to get the best rates there. I would rather you not have a car loan if you don't already have one. You know, just go ahead and save up that cash. But either way, the ability to maintain a healthy credit score is a good thing.

[Joel]

Yeah. And we've got articles up on our site, Matt, specifically about how to help your kids build a great credit score. So if you're like keen, you're interested, you could just go the authorized user route or you can kind of head over to our site and learn more about how you can help your kids start early. Because that is as it's you see that in those young 20 something, it's really difficult now if nobody helped them out, got them started on the right foot from a credit perspective, they feel like they're like flailing as they try to move forward. The thing is as a parent you can help them so that when they are at that age they're like raring to go. They're ready.

[Matt]

Yep. But that's gonna be it for this Friday flight. We hope everyone has a fantastic weekend. We'll see you back here on, you guessed it, Monday. Happy Halloween buddy. Until next time, Best friends out. Best friends out.

[Joel]

If you've been listening to the show for a while, you know we care a lot about being intentional with our money and that includes how we give it away.

[Matt]

That is why we are big fans of dafi, which is a modern donation platform and app for charitable giving that is also a donor advised fund, which means you can contribute cash, stock, ETFs or even crypto. You take the tax deduction right away and then send the money to over one and a half million charities, schools and other faith based organizations whenever you want with the funds that you've already set aside.

[Joel]

I've personally been using it to send recurring donations for causes I really care about, like my church and a local nonprofit called Blueprint 58.

[Matt]

Same here. Yeah, I've got recurring donations going to my kids school. DAFI also keeps your receipts organized for tax season. But the best part is DAFI itself is a nonprofit with a mission to help people to be more generous more often. So if you want a better system for your giving head to daffy.org howtomoney and for a limited time you'll even get $25 to give to the charity of your choice. Visit daffy.org how to how to Money.

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[Joel]

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[Matt]

This is an iHeart podcast.