Friday Flight - Mistaken Starting Salaries, Crypto Mortgages, & Self-Inflicted Inflation #1140

Summary

How to Money – Episode #1140:
Friday Flight – Mistaken Starting Salaries, Crypto Mortgages, & Self-Inflicted Inflation
May 15, 2026

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Episode Overview

In this “Friday Flight,” Joel and Matt dive into the latest personal finance headlines—with their typical balance of friendly banter and practical wisdom. Main topics this week include the reality check on starting salaries for new graduates, the evolving landscape of buying (and affording) technology, the emergence of crypto mortgages, and the everyday impacts of self-inflicted inflation. Sprinkled throughout are engaging stories about parenting in the smartphone era, creative ways to cut costs, and a deep dive into the real cost of commuting.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

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1. Parenting & Smartphones: Navigating Tech for Teens

• Context: Joel shares his experience with his daughter nearing smartphone age, struggling with timing, cost, and best approaches.
• Social policies: Discussion of the “wait till 8th” movement and collective parenting action.
• Money angle: Real-life considerations around upgrading or handing down old phones; focus on affordable plans and device costs.

"It's not even a money thing... the US Mobile 2 gig plan is $10 a month. That's nothing. It's a pittance." — Joel [04:35]

• Parenting tips: Restricting features, social media, and software updates vs. security updates on old devices.
• Listener engagement: Invitations for listeners to share their own strategies ([07:49]).

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2. Buying Secondhand Tech: Smart Savings or Hidden Risks?

• Survey insight: Half of Americans have considered buying refurbished or used tech ([09:00]).
• Pros & cons:
  • Big savings on slightly older models, especially on phones and laptops ([10:00-11:05]).
  • Caution about buying through Facebook Marketplace versus trusted sites (Apple, Amazon, Back Market).
  • Warranties and battery health are critical—Apple’s refurb program stands out for quality ([13:09-13:49]).
  • Timing matters: Wait for new phone releases (typically September) as older models drop in price.

"I'll just say that I think buying used is not always best... the new Apple Neo laptop looks like a better option for a lot of people." — Joel [09:40]

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3. Starting Salaries: Expectations vs. Reality for New Grads

• Headline stat: New grads are overestimating their starting salaries by about $24,000—expecting $80,000, but average is $56,000 ([17:07]).
• Field differences: Engineering majors still overestimate but less so.
• Practical advice:
  • Live below your means, even after landing a “real” job.
  • Keep a college-student lifestyle to build margin and savings early on ([18:36-20:00]).
• Personal reflections: Joel and Matt share their first post-college salaries (<$30k) and how they saved despite low pay ([19:25-20:13]).

“If you’re making $60,000, I want you to try to spend like maybe you’re only making $50,000… you’re going to find yourself with more cash on hand.” — Joel [18:26]

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4. Housing Market Update & DIY Advice

• Current state: Compared to the past few years, the housing market is "chill" ([22:12]).
• Buyer/seller tips:
  • Sellers: Small updates (painting, minor repairs) before listing are worth the investment ([23:00–24:00]).
  • Buyers: Consider homes needing work—fewer buyers competing may mean better deals, plus you get to choose your own finishes ([24:00–25:00]).
• DIY advantage: Matt and Joel encourage taking on renovation projects for better returns and personalization, though they acknowledge not everyone is eager to DIY.

“The average person wants to buy the home that got the HGTV treatment. They don’t want to actually do the [work] themselves.” — Matt [24:44]

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5. Crypto-Backed Mortgages: Caution Advised

• News: Fannie Mae will allow crypto assets as collateral for down payment loans—first lender is “Better,” entering the space in June ([25:00–28:00]).
• How it works: Lenders will require crypto collateral at 250% of the down payment due to volatility.
• Risks:
  • Bitcoin & stablecoins don’t have the intrinsic value of stocks or real estate.
  • Interest rates and loan terms may be worse than traditional options.
  • Matt strongly cautions against using too much crypto as “down payment” assets ([27:30–28:11]).

“This seems… it feels like a house of cards, man... if you have 250% of your down payment in crypto, that’s probably too much crypto on hand.”—Matt [28:00]

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6. Commuting Costs: The Real Drain

• Ludicrous headline: CNN claims “commuting is now unaffordable”—Joel and Matt push back on the hyperbole ([31:38]).
• Financial reality: Commuting expenses (especially gas) are climbing, and can eclipse housing savings gained from living farther away.
• Alternatives:
  • Live closer to work when possible—even if housing costs are pricier.
  • Explore biking, walking, or e-bikes for commutes under 10–12 miles.
  • Hosts recount their own zero- or low-car commutes and the long-term planning it took to achieve ([33:17–37:18]).
• Lifestyle benefits: Better fitness, lower costs, greater happiness.

“Everyone I talk to who's made that change—commuting via bike—would never go back.”—Joel [37:34]

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7. Inflation: Causes, Consequences & Personal Strategies

• Context: Inflation was cooling but has recently ticked back up to 3.8% ([38:00–38:37]).
• Key drivers: Geopolitics, war, tariffs, especially energy costs (gas up to $4.50–$5+/gallon) ([38:42–39:00]).
• Utility inflation: Average bills projected up 8.5% this year; energy-saving tips matter ([41:07–41:52]).
  • Use ceiling/attic fans, take advantage of cool weather, smart thermostats.
  • Avoid unnecessary big upgrades (like windows) for just-for-savings alone.

“Running your AC for your entire house when you’re not even there—that’s one of my favorite rituals before I leave: shutting down the house.” — Matt [43:35]

• Dangerous trend: Americans are relying more on debt, including personal loans, to fill budget gaps ([44:11–45:37]).
• Core advice: Cultivate a distaste—even a hatred—of all debt except mortgages. Tighten up spending, avoid lifestyle creep, and seek practical savings everywhere.

“Develop a distaste, and eventually a hatred for all forms of debt aside from your mortgage. That’s how you will ultimately become financially free.”—Matt [44:23]

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8. Closing Wisdom:

• Cumulative changes: Efforts to save in many small ways, across all spending areas, add up to significant financial strength ([47:07–47:35]).
• Financial freedom: Proactivity—not anxiety or reaction—yields the greatest control over your future.

“It’s not just eliminating the latte... It’s the latte, plus the AC, plus the used iPhone: all those things added up makes a big difference.” — Matt [47:07]

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• [04:35] Joel: “It's not even a money thing... the US Mobile 2 gig plan is $10 a month. That’s nothing.”
• [09:40] Joel: “Buying used is not always best... the new Apple Neo laptop looks like a better option for a lot of people.”
• [17:07] Matt: “College seniors are expecting to make $80,000 a year when they graduate, but the average starting salary is actually $56,000.”
• [18:26] Joel: “If you’re making $60,000, I want you to try to spend like maybe you’re only making $50,000.”
• [27:30] Matt: “There is no underlying actual value when it comes to crypto other than just trust... This seems incredibly—feels like a house of cards, man.”
• [31:38] Joel: “Ludicrous headline of the week: ‘Commuting is now unaffordable for some American workers.’”
• [37:34] Joel: “Everyone I talk to who's made that change—commuting via bike—would never go back.”
• [44:23] Matt: “Develop a distaste, and eventually a hatred for all forms of debt aside from your mortgage. That’s how you will ultimately become financially free.”
• [47:07] Matt: “It’s not just the latte factor. It’s... all those things added up. That’s when it really does make a big difference.”

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Timestamps for Major Segments

• 01:30 – Episode theme introductions
• 03:13–08:51 – Parenting and smartphones
• 09:11–13:49 – Buying secondhand or refurbished tech
• 16:31–21:19 – Graduation, job markets, and starting salary realities
• 22:12–25:00 – State of the housing market and DIY advice
• 25:00–28:56 – Crypto mortgages: how they work, risks
• 31:38–37:53 – The real cost of commuting and alternatives
• 38:00–41:52 – Inflation update, utility bills, and coping strategies
• 44:11–47:47 – Debt as a coping tool—and why it’s dangerous
• 47:47–end – Wrap-up, overall philosophy

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Tone & Approach

The episode maintains Joel and Matt’s friendly, honest, and slightly irreverent take on personal finance—balancing stats and headlines with relatable anecdotes and actionable advice. The underlying theme: small, smart financial choices and awareness of broader trends can add up to outsized results over time.

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Perfect For: Anyone who wants an accessible, no-nonsense update on the latest money headlines—from recent grads to seasoned savers—while enjoying the easygoing camaraderie of two best friends who “walk what they talk.”

Transcript

[A]

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[B]

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[A]

let's say you've always wanted to take a spontaneous trip to the Caribbean. Well, here's the thing. If you get smart with your money, you can do things like that. With Empower, you can start making the most out of your money so you can go out and live a little. Isn't that why we work so hard to have some fun with our money? Like treating yourself to something special or

[B]

spontaneously doing something extra for a loved one man. So use Empower and get good at money so you can be a little bad. Join their 19 million customers [e-mail] not an empowered client, paid or sponsored. Welcome to how to Money. I'm Joel.

[A]

And I am Matt.

[B]

Today we're talking mistaken starting salaries, crypto mortgages and self inflicted inflation.

[A]

Self inflict at inflation. Are we going to delve into the political waters, Joel?

[B]

No, you're doing it to yourselves, people. No, there's, there's a lot out of your control. But yeah, yeah, well there's and there's also what I mean is like actually as a country by that like we're kind of like sure, that's exactly what I mean.

[A]

But then someone on one side of the aisle might say, well you could you say it's self inflicted in the same way that if a dog was attacking you and you were trying to knock it off, that you hurt your hand, that like, well it was self inflicted, you did it to yourself. I think some folks would also make the argument that like we kind of needed to do something. But how about that's just going to be as political as it gets for, for this episode because that's not what we typically focus on here.

[B]

I almost got attacked by a dog walking up to record this episode with you too, buddy.

[A]

Maybe that's why I just thought of that.

[B]

Lily, the dog example. So we record in a garage apartment and self inflicted.

[A]

Joel, you should be so eager to get the dog off your leg.

[B]

I mean it's this tiny little pooch. It's not frightening at all.

[A]

But even tiny dogs have teeth.

[B]

That's true. It's got a ferocious little bark though. And I was like, are gonna let me up the driveway today?

[A]

Fingers crossed. He's been led inside and we actually don't hear him during this recording during our Friday flight where we hit the most recent pertinent relevant headlines and specifically how they impact your money, no doubt. You wanna talk about your money today, Joel? Yeah.

[B]

I wanted to mention that my daughter is entering 8th grade next year and she's got a summer birthday. Yeah. And so you know that wait till 8th sort of smartphone thing we've been able to hold off until until now. And she's not even like begging for a smartphone.

[A]

But which by the way, the way. So some folks credit. What's Jonathan Haidt with the wait till 8th?

[B]

Was that his.

[A]

This is pre Jonathan Hyde. This goes back to the late teens. It was like a movement that started I think out in Texas where it was a group of parents who were essentially trying to. It's the collective action problem that Jonathan Haidt does talk about in his Anxious Generation book. So you kind of agree together because that's a part of being able to pump the brakes a little bit when it comes to smartphone to successfully pull

[B]

it off so that your kid doesn't feel like the only one who's left out while everyone else is on their phone. And I will say, like, part of me feels like it's too early even, Even with the wait till eight, like oh gosh, is now even still a good time? Although I trust my daughter and phones aren't allowed at her school. And so from that standpoint I'm like, all right, I think we can do this and sound like she's going to

[A]

be on it during class or in between classes.

[B]

Do they allow them to point out shorting to bring it to school? Right. So I think we're going to, I think we're going to proceed and she's going to get my old phone. And it's not even a money thing like, because like, you know, the US mobile 2 gig plan is $10 a month. So it's.

[A]

That's nothing.

[B]

It's a pittance. Right. In terms of how much it's going to cost me on a monthly basis. And. But part of me was like, gosh, I don't even want to like upgrade my phone and give her my old phone just because I my phone's great. I don't feel the need to change things up. But that also just seemed like the smartest thing to do is to buy myself a new er, but not brand new refurbished phone.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

So we're talking.

[A]

This is like a social parenting kind of conversation right here. There is a difference between letting your kid have a smartphone where they have unfettered access to all the apps, to Facebook, to Instagram, to TikTok. No social media versus the ability to text your friends or email your friends or email your teacher if they. They have some sort of virtual classroom set up to be able to receive an assignment or a worksheet if you were missing a day of school or even listening to music. That's something that our daughter has been doing more on in old iPhone. Wait, I thought she texts Evie, doesn't she?

[B]

What does she use currently? She has like a phone that we keep in like a drawer that she checks once every like two weeks. It was like my parents old like iPhone 7 or something. And so she's like signed in and can text friends, but it's never with her. She doesn't have service, so that was not considered hers.

[A]

Is that when like the family. It's like a house phone or it's

[B]

technically hers but like it doesn't have service. She can't take it anywhere. And we also like because of that,

[A]

she just put a card in that one and where she's able to use that iPhone. Sevens aren't that old.

[B]

Yeah, pretty old at this point. I don't think they have even the security updates on those anymore, which is the big reason why we do they not. No iPhone 7.

[A]

Are you sure?

[B]

Pretty sure.

[A]

Okay.

[B]

I'm pretty sure. Those stopped like a year ago. So. So that that phone at this point is kind of like.

[A]

That surprises me because we is our oldest. In a similar way, we've got a phone that. Yeah, it's in the drawer. You have to ask to be able to get on it. Which also means your room needs to be picked up, your home, homework needs to be done and everything else that they know has to, you know the boxes that need to be checked off. Yeah, but it's an SE. It's the second generation SE which came out in 2020. So it's a six year old phone. And I think that there's a difference between not getting the software. I'm sorry, the security updates versus the latest iOS updates. True.

[B]

Right.

[A]

And so I'm just saying, I don't know if you've already decided, but if you're looking for a way. You're saying it's not a super expensive thing, the service, but the actual devices,

[B]

that's the most expensive part.

[A]

Yeah, truly. And again, aside from the sort of social parenting kind of conversation, oftentimes the cost comes down to the physical phone. So, yeah, I don't know. I'm not super. I guess I'm just not super interested in having the device be more attractive, I guess, to my, to my oldest daughter.

[B]

That's a good point.

[A]

She's right now very, like, pretty happy with being able to get on there infrequently, but it's enough to kind of coordinate with friends or see what's going

[B]

on a fancier screen and like, better everything.

[A]

Like a moth drawn to the flame.

[B]

It's faster and yeah, works better.

[A]

You want to spend more time on it. So. Yeah, no, well, maybe the old, your parents. Old seven just needs like, maybe needs to be fully reset, get the latest updates, get a fresh login. Yeah, I don't know. Maybe. Maybe that'll come.

[B]

Maybe that's the solution. I'll think about that. I'll think about.

[A]

Your daughter is listening to this. I hate to. No, she's not, because she wouldn't. You wouldn't have said that.

[B]

And she doesn't have a phone that she can listen to podcasts on. Right. So she's not listening. But if anybody out there listening is like going through this or has gone through this. And you have any tips for how you navigated it, like getting your, you know, soon to be your teenager essentially into the smartphone era. I would love your feedback. How tomoneypod. Gmail com, if you have any, just like wisdom to share, I'll take it. Yeah, it's like this is like a new frontier that we're crossing here.

[A]

A lot of parents, I'm sure, who are a good five years ahead of us, which is what I want, who I want to hear from, because the parents who are 10 years ahead of us, I'm like, I feel like that's when everyone was just throwing phones to their kids. There wasn't the knowledge, there wasn't the data, the research out there talking about the, the social, just all the potential problems that social media in particular can lead to in developing kids.

[B]

But I feel worse for those kids,

[A]

I know because they were the cutting

[B]

throne of the wolves.

[A]

The cutting edge. They were. Yeah. Leading the charge.

[B]

And for those parents, because I think they're better bad. They just didn't have enough information to make a different choice in some ways. Like, yeah, we have a lot more information now.

[A]

You're right. That's true.

[B]

All right, speaking of phones, Matt, let's get to stories. A new CNET survey finds that half of Americans, they have considered buying secondhand tech. They haven't necessarily bought secondhand tech, but they've at least considered it, which I thought was interesting about it. It crossed my mind one time. I'm like, only half of people. It's only crushed your mind.

[A]

Like, I feel like it should be like 95% of.

[B]

Right.

[A]

Like there should only be a very small cadre elite who are like, I'm

[B]

never going to get a used iPhone. Just the succession style people. Right.

[A]

Yeah. The folks are just constantly peeling the fresh plastic off of the spotless.

[B]

Like I don't even put a case on it because that's how rich I am. Right.

[A]

I look forward to the day. I'm not there yet. But I do think some of the newer. Well, the newer phones are so good. They're so brake resistant and they're made of titanium. Titanium. So they're lighter and stuff too.

[B]

Maybe at some point the cases will become less necessary. I'm not willing to risk it yet.

[A]

I'm not either.

[B]

Yeah, well, but I'm close. I'll just say that I think buying used is not always best. Right. Like for instance, we talked about the new Apple Neo laptop. It looks like a better option probably for a lot of people than buying a used MacBook. In many cases, like 600 bucks, man, is where it starts at. That's pretty inexpensive for an Apple laptop. I mean, there. And that's just in the Apple sphere.

[A]

Right.

[B]

There's. There's other inexpensive computers that you might want to consider as opposed to buying a used computer. Just depends. And like, still, though similar to buying a gently used car, buying refurbished technology, it can meaningfully reduce the cost. So I was just kind of messing around this map because I'm in this kind of like, what do I do in terms of phone upgrades and what do I give to my daughter? And I went to Apple's site, the iPhone 16 Pro. It's not even available there anymore. I'm like, that's not even that old of a phone. I'm shocked that Apple doesn't still sell that one. The 17 Pro starts at eleven hundred dollars before tax. But you can, you know, snag like a gently used Mint Condition 16 Pro on other sites for like closer to like 750 bucks. And so, and if you go even further back, like the 14 Pro, which is a great phone for like less than 400 bucks, which is, which is fantastic. And so we're already seeing, I think people just like extend their upgrade cycle. They're upgrading less often because the improvements are minuscule every year. There's just almost no reason to upgrade every year or two. But buying a generation or two back and then also keeping it longer, that will reduce the budget that you put towards technology and, you know, pay full price for the phone, for the used refurbished phone and then get service with the discount. That's the way to save the most. Those commercials are catchy, Matt, with the big providers about getting a free phone, a phone on us, like, you're like, ooh, that's enticing. That sounds nice. But then you're paying, you're signing up for 60 bucks a month for the

[A]

service that payment life. Yeah. Not only do we want you paying up front for the actual phone, but when you pay all at once and up front when it comes to the service, that's also how you save the most when it comes to that. But where it is that you buy these used phones makes a big difference too, because, like, some items are great to buy on Marketplace. Right. I'm trying to think about the last thing I purchased on Facebook Marketplace. I can't think of what I've purchased. I've sold plenty of items on Facebook Marketplace, though. But I would not consider buying an iPhone there specifically. I would consider.

[B]

So riskier.

[A]

Yeah. Because, I mean, I don't know, like, we recommend for folks to take their cars to get checked out by a mechanic. Like, you're not really doing that with an electronic device. Right? Maybe people are. Actually, I've not, Not even. I've not really thought about that. But I can't imagine there's too many folks who would be cool with you taking the device and be like, hey, by the way, let's, let's head over to the screen fix it place and they're going to do a one over diagnostic on this phone before purchasing, hey,

[B]

what if I use this for a few days and it turns out it's not working as good as you said. Can I bring it back for a refund?

[A]

And they're like, they got time for that? That's not how this works. My favorite site is I mean going directly to Apple and buying the refreshed or refurbished phones there. Jill, I know you like Amazon. There's other sites out there too. Have you ever used back market?

[B]

That's one I haven't but I've heard good things there. And actually, that's actually where I was looking most recently was Amazon because you can get their. I forget what they call the premium refurbished or something like that. And that basically a newer phone as opposed to. Yeah, so that one they basically, they say well the battery life is going to be at least 90% on this phone. It's in mint condition.

[A]

90 is better than 80, which is what the typical ones are, 80% which isn't that great. I mean like it's not. You have a phone for a few years and typically it'll be around, you know, 81, 82%. So for them to guarantee that, that it's at least at 80% and I'm like that's gonna feel like a used phone.

[B]

Right.

[A]

And that's a part of why I love Gosh. I mean I truly think the Apple Refurb is just such a slam dunk because they replace the guts and they give you a fresh shell or whatever it's called, like the outer body, the thing that you see and hold. It's always got a fresh battery and a fresh shell essentially.

[B]

So it, so you get a battery.

[A]

It really does seem like a brand new.

[B]

You're getting a battery with 100% charge.

[A]

Yes. That's cool. And it's got the one year warranty there too.

[B]

So yeah, you gotta weigh the options.

[A]

But it's more expensive.

[B]

It's more expensive.

[A]

It' as much of a deal. I mean it's like a few hundred dollars more to do that. Yes, you are saving a couple hundred versus buying it brand spanking new straight from the factory. But it's still yeah, I think like two, three hundred dollars more going. Going that route as opposed to something there on Amazon. But yeah, certainly pay attention to the warranties that some of these sites are offering and you also want to know whether it's locked to a specific carrier or not. And just keep in mind that prices on older models, they tend to fall pretty significantly after the announcement and after the release of a new version which typically historically at least is in September.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

So keep that in mind.

[B]

All right, let's, let's move on. Matt, let's talk about graduation. We were just talking about how Pre K just had graduation today in our neck of the woods, which is just, it's Funny, the pictures are adorable of little 4 year olds, quote unquote, graduating with little caps and stuff on. And big congrats to all the high school and college graduates out there. I think in some parts of the country, Matt, this happens a little bit later, but where we live, like the graduation stuff is going down. It's happening right now, now next week, but. And I love seeing the neighborhood signs that highlight where young people are going off to college. It's just kind of fun to see like that celebrated. And hey, this is where folks are headed next. And for college graduates who want to snag a good job in a job market that I would say it's not terrible, but it's just ait's how I would classify the job market right now, Matt. I don't know if you have a better term for that, but I would say, aight, it's an a job market. I would say it's a good idea to look where the jobs exist. Right? Like this is one of those things. Historically in America, people have gone to where the jobs are. In modern America we actually do that less, even though it's easier to get around and to move to a new city. Adp, the payroll service, found that the best job markets are in the south, essentially. There are other solid job markets too, but Birmingham, Nashville, Raleigh, Tampa and Charlotte are some of the absolute best places to look for work. If you're graduating now and you're like, well, I thought I was going to stay out here in Wyoming, but man, my degree, man, it's a good fit with some of these jobs down in Huntsville, right, Or in Birmingham, like those are just cities that are, have a lot of opportunity and a lot of growth right now. Birmingham is actually the top city. They took the crown. And part of that was too part of the appeal is that wages and affordability are better in a city like Birmingham. So not only can you get paid more, there's more jobs, but also it's cheaper to live in Birmingham than it is.

[A]

Yeah, all factors being considered.

[B]

Yeah, you're like, oh, I really want to live in Denver, but that's going to cost you a lot more money than it would to live in Birmingham. So yeah, I think we'll link to the full list in the show notes. But it's going to be easier to find a good job if you're looking in the right place. And if you're looking in just kind of this tight radius around where you live now, you're, you're limiting yourself.

[A]

It's going to Be an uphill slog. Yeah. So it's a good idea to know where the jobs are. It's also a good idea to have a decent idea of how much these jobs are likely to pay. And turns out new grads are overestimating their starting salaries by $24,000 on average. That's so much money.

[B]

You're gonna pay me 150 grand, right, just out of school. And they're like, no, no.

[A]

And I don't know if it's just inexperience or having high hopes or whatever, but on average, college seniors are expecting to make $80,000 a year when they graduate, but the average starting salary is actually $56,000. So, yeah, I mean, it's true that the average starting salary is actually up year over year for. For new college grads, but it's just not up that much. And depending on your major, you might actually exceed that. That $80,000 threshold. Specifically engineers. But even there, they were expecting to make 91,000. So there's still a $10,000 gap between the. Yeah. The expected salary and the realized or actual salary. So I think it's good, like, have big hopes, have big expectations, but when it comes to things that you have control of, control over, obviously you're looking for the best job. But on the other side of the equation, on the spending side, don't engage in a lifestyle assuming that this big money is coming your way, the longer that you can essentially live like a college student. And this is even after you get a real gig where you're getting paid legit, a legitimate salary with real benefits, well, the more margin and the more freedom that you're going to be able to build up for yourself. So if, you know, if you're making $60,000, well, I want you to try to spend, like, maybe you're only making 50,000. Like, you're only making 40,000, and all of a sudden you're going to find yourself with more cash on hand to be able to do whatever it is you want with at some point.

[B]

Jim Dali, the white coat investor. Matt, he really talks specifically to physicians, and he constantly harped on that he would tell people, live like a resident. Even after you've gotten, like, your full

[A]

doctor gig, even though you're an actual doctor. Yeah. Don't immediately get the Beamer right. Hold off, keep driving the Camry for. Just delay it, you know, like three more years. Just delay it. Like, he's not saying to not do that, but just to be able to get ahead of the curve. Yeah, that way you don't have interest working against you in the form of debt. Yep, essentially.

[B]

Exactly. And it allows you to kind of not inflate your lifestyle too quickly so that you have more money to funnel towards investments, to paying down debt, to kind of getting on solid financial footing instead of just like realizing that full paycheck and living the baller life. I'm curious, do you remember what you're starting your first full annual salary was at when your first traditional job after you graduated?

[A]

$29,000.

[B]

Oh, you're beating me. I was 20. 24, so.

[A]

24.

[B]

I don't know what that is adjusted for inflation.

[A]

But I will say I don't know what my first actual. So I'm not counting my summer gig immediately after graduation working at a boys summer camp as a assistant program director. I'm not counting the hourly job that I held for that next year while also living in the woods of North Carolina. It was not a lot. It was like a pittance. That's why we didn't have central heat and we chopped wood in order to stay warm.

[B]

That was your first full time job.

[A]

Yeah, I mean, so I definitely had those. But then once I moved to the big old city and got a job in advertising, so. And this was, you know, I saw this as like a reputable, like high paying job. Yeah. 29K. It was not very much.

[B]

Yeah. It is interesting how you look back and you're like, I was still saving money. I still saved money even though I was making.

[A]

I wasn't saving a lot. Very low.

[B]

I was not saving a lot because I. No, I wasn't. But I was saved enough to quit and take a road trip around the country with the money I saved. Like so it's, it's still doable on a paltry salary. I'll say that too. And sometimes expecting too much, it can, can lead to a letdown.

[A]

Yeah. Some of it comes down to the sacrifices and like, the reason I was able to save any money at that point in life was because of the fact I was living in my friend's basement. Yeah. Which was not an ideal spot to live by a used wretch, but it meant that I was saving a ton of money. Yeah.

[B]

I was living in a duplex, two bedroom duplex with a roommate. I mean, there's all sorts of ways you can cut down.

[A]

That's what you got to do early on.

[B]

If you just assume you have to have your own place upon graduation, like that's gonna cost you a pretty penny. You might not be Able to save as much.

[A]

It all comes back to expectations though, because you think about these college grads and these are also the college grads. And guess what they didn't do in college? Share a room. Because it's, you know, some of them do. Some of them do, but some of them.

[B]

He's going off to college. He was supposed to be in a room with four other people. I was like, wait, an actual room or a room?

[A]

Oh, what kind of college are you going to? I don't know, man.

[B]

I was like, that is gangster. I cannot imagine college of hard knocks right there.

[A]

Like, but like, I'm thinking of some of these universities and the amount of money they've poured into amenities for, you know, like the lazy rivers, the, you know, like, I mean, seriously, like, this is a real, this is a real thing.

[B]

The rock walls.

[A]

Yes. Yeah.

[B]

I mean, which is cool. It's, it's nice you have fancy stuff at college. But it also like, it makes it

[A]

tougher to slum it once you graduate and you're fully on your own and you're done with student loans or you're done with your parents helping you out or like whatever it is that allowed you to get to that spot.

[B]

Now you want the apartment complex that has all those things. Yeah, if you're lucky. All right, let's move on. Let's talk about what we're talking about where you live. Let's talk about housing. The spring housing market is well underway and we've got some data about where things stand right now. If you were to use one word to categorize the housing market right now. I just categorized the jobs market as. Aight. The housing market would be chill, Matt. Maybe is how I would describe it. It's pretty chill.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Things have slowed down. That's not a bad thing because remember where we were four years ago when things were the complete opposite of chill. They were completely insane. So I think we're actually. It's good that we're not in that space anymore. And a lot of folks made pressure filled decisions to offer like six figures above asking price to get the house they wanted four years ago. Well, buyers have more time and can be more discriminating as they shop for a home now. It's not. The bidding wars are complete thing of the past. They're just not as abundant or as ferocious as they used to be. And as usual, the national association of Realtors finds that buyers want move in ready homes, Matt. Even if it means spending more. So that is like what buyers are after. They Want something that's like freshly painted, it's updated and they don't want to come, come in and have to like, you know, do all those updates themselves. The homes that are sitting longer are the ones that need more work. So I guess the advice from our end would be one, if you're selling, gussy up your place before you sell it, like, don't. If your bathroom needs minor updates, like, do the updates because you're likely going to get more money than you spend if you do those things. If you do them wisely, spending a bit more here and there could draw more attention. It could draw better offers and mean your home's not lingering as long on the market. And then as far as advice to buyers, consider making offers on the uglier homes. Right on. On the pigs out there that you can put lipstick on because. And then allocate the money to fix it up. That's how you're going to get the best deal. When you are kind of zigging when other people are zagging, everybody wants to move in ready home. Matt. But like, if, if buyers will prioritize the home that needs more love, well, in some ways that's a better way to go financially. But then also, oh yeah, you get to make the updates the way you want them as, as well, it always somebody else's updates.

[A]

It always surprises me that folks are unwilling to do that. And that just goes to show that I'm a weirdo. Right? Like, in a similar way, I think you're willing to. We've known that you're willing to do that too. Right. Like you're telling folks, you're trying to encourage folks to do that. But that's not where the numbers and the data point to. Like, people don't want to have to make those decisions. But that just goes so counter to what I instinctually want to do, which is to buy. To find and buy the deal and then to sink the money into it myself in order to not only get the finishes that I want, but to also know that the work is being done. Right. Because sometimes folks who come in and flip a home, they don't. They're not doing things exactly up to par up to, I guess, spec. Right up to the level that if it's my own home, that's my personal residence, that I think I would like to see.

[B]

I think the average person wants to buy the home that got the HGTV treatment. They don't want to actually like do the H.G. yeah, they don't want to do that. Treatment themselves.

[A]

Yeah. And shoot. And that's an even better way of doing it. Not just hiring the person to do the work, but even maybe doing some of it yourself. Which obviously I know, like there's no question in my mind that I'm more in the minority there. While we're talking about homes, Joel, crypto backed mortgages are becoming a reality. So it's not just your savings and not just your traditional investments that are going to help you to qualify for that home loan. Your crypto holdings will be considered too. Fannie Mae announced that it will use, it's going to use crypto and stablecoin assets as collateral when you are opting for a conventional mortgage. So because of crypto's volatility, the collateral value must be at least 250% of the down payment loan. Better is the specific mortgage lender here. It's going to be the first servicer to participate. And they're starting to underwrite crypto mortgages, essentially, if that's what you want to call them, crypto mortgages. They're going to start that process in June. It's important here to point out that we're talking about loans on down payments. I don't know if folks caught that. Right. This isn't just evaluating your holdings. It's also saying, hey, how about a zero down loan? Your ability to not put anything down on this home based on the assets you have on hand, which is crazy. This is incredibly.

[B]

It's also something that ultra rich have done for a long time. It's like, don't sell your socks. We'll, we'll lend you money based on the value.

[A]

It's the Billy strategy. Right. Although all the billionaires out there. Yeah. But there's a big difference between assets that you hold. So like Bezos or Elon. Right. It's like they're not selling shares of their companies. They've got however many shares of Bezos, of Amazon and he's borrowing on those shares in order to not have to sell. That's the buy. What is it? Buy, borrow, die approach. There is a big difference between those stocks of Amazon and Bitcoin.

[B]

Right.

[A]

Because on one hand you have intrinsic value. You got these shares of a company that is creating something physical. And let's just say in some crazy world that you've got a company like Amazon that completely like stops, they halt operations. Well, even if that were to be, which it would never happen, but even if that were to be the case, there's still residual value of those stocks based on Real estate that Amazon owns, factories, warehouses, equipment within those that they could liquidate and sell off. So it's still worth something. There is no underlying actual value when it comes to crypto other than just

[B]

trust, which, and like to be fair, like there is, there is also, you could say the same thing about the $20 bill you hold in your hand. Like there's a trust that someone will accept that, that it's worth something. So from that standpoint, it doesn't mean that crypto is, is worthless, I don't think.

[A]

I've certainly, I mean I have crypto myself, but there's just a big difference between something that's backed by a country like the United States and everything that the US stands for, as opposed to something that feels more crowdsourced, which is essentially what bitcoin is. And again, this is coming from somebody who, I think listeners might be surprised at how much bitcoin myself own. I just think it's a bad idea for lenders to be doing this. This seems incredibly, it feels like a house of cards, man. You know, and hopefully individual potential buyers out there aren't seeing their, we're not seeing their eyes light up because hopefully they don't have enough on hand to be able to equal 250% of a down payment. That means for most people listening, I think that that would indicate too much crypto, too much bitcoin on hand.

[B]

Also probably worth mentioning that if you're opting for a mortgage, one of these crypto backed mortgages rates could be higher than average and you might not get the best terms. So it's still worth shopping around. Even if you could qualify for one of these, it turns out going through a credit union or at least checking to see if a credit union offers better deals. Just because this exists and you've got a fair amount of crypto holdings doesn't mean this makes this the knee jerk best mortgage.

[A]

Doesn't mean it's a surefire. Yeah, it's just like, hey, how about you actually consider the traditional cash that you have on hand? Maybe you've got some of that around. Oh, it turns out you can get a pretty good rate from your local credit union. Which sounds so old fogey approach to buying a home. It's like I'm not going to buy a home like my grandpa did. Well, it turns out it might be the most affordable way to do it.

[B]

Yeah, for real. We got more to get to Matt, including we're going to talk about commuting and we're going to do a little deep dive on inflation as well. There's some ways people are attempting to deal with it that are just digging a deeper hole. We'll talk about that and more right after this.

[A]

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[A]

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[A]

alright buddy, we are back and now it is time for the ludicrous headline of the week. I feel like the crypto backed mortgages could have been our ludicrous of the week but this one is from CNN and the headline reads it's literally going to break me. And they're talking about commuting. Commuting is now unaffordable for some American workers. But the actual. Literally, literally the Rob. The Rob Lowe literally. Is it literally going to kill you? Actually does make me think back to one of the early episodes we did about commuting being there's a lot of

[B]

car accidents every year and so, so maybe it would. But that's a chance.

[A]

That's not what they're talking about.

[B]

The commuting could kill you. But you know the headline is kind of ridiculous.

[A]

Feels like a bit much. But CNN in that article they highlighted a random person who commutes basically non stop for his job. He spends $1,000 a month on gas and his employer isn't going to help with that increased cost which I get, that's not cool. But it's also not going to kill him.

[B]

So might cost him a lot of money and it might be a job he needs to get out of but it's not like he will die in his sleep because, because of this.

[A]

Yeah, there's other reasons.

[B]

Are we being too literal here?

[A]

I don't know. Maybe it says literally in the headline. Yeah, if you drive more gas prices will certainly they're gonna have an impact on your, on your budget. But we've always talked about the benefits of living closer to where it is that you work in order to minimize your not only your commute times but also the costs of you getting to work. So this isn't something I know that folks are like well yeah, great, great advice dudes. That's not something I can pull off. You can't change that overnight. But that is one of those factors that, that I think is worth considering it.

[B]

It really, really is. Like when you're thinking about the totality of your life and what do you want to be doing with your time and maybe you like driving and you don't mind traffic and you have enough budget flexibility to not care about gas prices. Great. Like that's. Then make a different decision. But I think for, for the average person, Matt, they really, when you like, look at the polling. People hate commuting. They hate spending that much time in the car. And especially when gas prices are up, they hate commuting even more. And the answer to that is, and oftentimes, like, it might be more expensive housing, right. To live closer to where you work. But it might be worth that trade off too. I know we live like the poshest life in some ways because we get to walk to work. And people might be like, yeah, easy for you guys to say, but we also like, you walk, I bike, you bike. And we intentionally kind of designed it that way. And it took time. Like, we weren't able to do that overnight either. But that was the goal, right? Was to be able to find a place where then we could pull that off. And again, I know it's easier for us than it is for other people, but, man, with how much commuting costs and how much time it takes and just how much frustration and stress it causes for people. We've been against long distance commuting for a long time. And as Momentum magazine put it, Matt, they, like, wrote a response article to cnn. They said, hey, cnn, there are other ways to commute. You know, I love that. They're just like taking them on, slapping them on the chin. We like, we've made commuting synonymous with car these days. Like, that's the only way you commute. And we're not idiots. Like, cars are necessary. They're a necessary reality for the vast majority of folks in modern America. But you can also push back against this car centric modern reality that we live in. There was a line from the article, Matt. It read, one can't help but notice the giant bike shaped elephant in the room. Bike, man. The bike is an underrated way of getting around. And was that literally our first episode

[A]

that we ever recorded?

[B]

I think it was. He was number one or number two.

[A]

Yeah, yeah. And it's pretty central to the how to money or at least back then, the poor, not poor ethos. Yeah.

[B]

And I don't ride my bike to work, but I'm still riding my bike on the reg around town. And so if you live within, let's say 10 to 12 miles of where you work, you could bike to work. And E bikes make that even easier. You don't even have to be incredibly fit to make it happen on an E bike.

[A]

That's true.

[B]

I do see a lot of people, Matt. When I'm going on my runs in

[A]

the morning, more and more folks are E bikes, man, I love it.

[B]

I'M seeing it and I can tell those people are going to work. They're not just like, joyriding.

[A]

No, exactly. You can tell they're like. They got the backpack.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

They've. They're looking towards work.

[B]

Yes, exactly.

[A]

Like looking around, like waving to neighbors or.

[B]

Yep. Yeah. And I love to see it because it's like, it's not just the gas. Right. It's. It's the total cost of car ownership. And according to AAA, we're spending something like $900 plus a month on average to have the car so that we can commute long distances. And when you kind of stop to think about it for a second, you see how ridiculous and expensive it is. And I guess you could hope that gas gets cheaper or that the federal government removes the gas tax, which is something that's been floated, something like 18 cents a gallon. So, yes, it would bring prices down,

[A]

but prices would still be high. Big whoop.

[B]

Yeah. So I think people should consider a more active approach to this problem. And maybe that's like a double entendre. Right? Like, it's being active in how you think about it and then also just getting active by using your body in the way you commute instead of just like hopping in the car and making it happen.

[A]

Yeah. Longtime listeners will have heard this sort of argument before, but I just think it's so ridiculous that we use, like, we expect the same vehicle to be, like, it's the vehicle that we take across the country in order to go on some long road trip, that we're driving 80 miles per hour on the interstate for 600 miles without stopping. Is the same vehicle that we run to the post office with.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Like, doesn't that not seem like overkill?

[B]

Hey, I walked to the post office.

[A]

I know. Like, I'm thinking of all. I'm drawing on all these real life examples. That's what we do here. But yeah, I'm making an argument for the humble bike and what it is that you can potentially do. Yeah, I know it's warming up, but it's also pretty nice and cool out there.

[B]

And for people who make that pivot mat, everyone I talk to who does it, like, maybe those first couple weeks or especially like when you're in the winter or the dog days of summer, you're like, gosh, super cold, super hot, and take some getting used to. But then everybody I've talked to who's made that change in their commuting via

[A]

bike also makes you tough.

[B]

They would never go back. Exactly. It makes them tough.

[A]

And they're like tough and awesome and

[B]

they're like, gosh, like my mood is better because when I get home, I just got my exercise on the way home and so I'm not better for

[A]

your community, it's better for the environment. It's. Yeah, you are in better shape. All while saving you a ton of money. It doesn't seem like there's, there's much to, there's much downsides there.

[B]

Don't quibble with this. Yeah.

[A]

By the way, let's talk about inflation. It was being tamed, it was on the way down, but that's no longer the case. The Fed, it seemed like that they were making progress towards their 2% target, but then geopolitics got in the way. So inflation folks may have seen it ratcheted back up to 3.8% in April and of course energy costs were accounting for 40% of that increase. Price of housing is moderating, which is, which is good news. But other elements of the CPI continue to run amok and from our point of view there's a. Yeah, I get what you're saying, Joel. Like did we have to do this to ourselves? Maybe this is self inflicted. We're talking about the war, we're talking about tariffs as well.

[B]

Gas prices were, were pretty low, pretty reasonable across most of the country until the war.

[A]

Prior. Yeah, prior to that. We're, we're getting close to all time highs now. Is it? I think the average now is a little bit north of 450 a gallon. $5 a gallon was where we peaked back in 2022. And we are getting pretty, we're getting uncomfortably close to that.

[B]

And our California listeners in particular, they're like, shut up.

[A]

Yeah, what is it out there in six plus six, seven bucks. Which is insane. But this just continues to be an uphill battle for the average person who, you know, got used to what felt like, oh, we're getting back to the normal days. Right. The 2% inflation. And like that was the reality for a while. Like that was the reality, you know, back in the 90s, the early aughts and even the teens some. But we've got to be prepared by increasing our own margin and our own flexibility for just a more volatile economy. Because I'm not sure if we're going to see things turn around if, if the straight of hormone moves, man, if it doesn't open up, I'm afraid we're going to see prices continue to ratchet up. Right. Like early on we talked about, oh, there are some immediate impacts that we're going to see, right. The forecasted price per gallon of bent crude. We're seeing jet fuel prices go up, but we're starting to see these increased costs, these pass through costs that businesses are initially absorbing are going to have to start being dished out to consumers. Right. And when you go from something like I don't know the numbers or whatever, it's like 20 million barrels of oil that was passing a day.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

That was passing through the Strait of Hormuz and it's effectively zero. Like, at some point that's going to catch up. And we are getting closer and closer to that point. And we've been a bit more nervous,

[B]

more insulated as a country than a lot of other countries have been. So in some ways where it might. It's hard to think this way, but it's like, oh, we're more fortunate than we are, like 100%. We are European.

[A]

Yeah. Geopolitically, I kind of get the strategy to a certain extent, but it doesn't mean that there's not going to be. That we're not going to see higher prices because of that if things don't turn around in the near future.

[B]

When you had tariffs and kind of even just post Covid realities, like all that stuff, it just looked like we were trending back towards kind of normality, more normality from a pricing standpoint, and that just kind of got shaken up real quick. Something else that's been massively impacted by inflation is utility prices, which makes total sense, kind of aligning with what you're talking about here, Matt. The average utility bill is. It's forecasted to rise 8.5% this year, which is not easy to deal with because utility prices were already high. And so the like. I guess I just want to give a cut.

[A]

Those lights off, kids.

[B]

Yeah. Well, I was gonna say, like, that's one thing.

[A]

They're just like, dad, it's an LED bulb. It doesn't matter. I'm like, it does matter.

[B]

And it matters a lot less. Right. Than the traditional bulbs we grew up with because those cost a lot more to run to turn your light on cost more money back then, but, man, there's still a lot of other ways, too, that we can. We can approach, like rising utility bills and kind of lower our own utility bills totally. Even while this in the teeth of this trend. Ceiling fans, attic fans, those are devices to use to the max, if you've got them. Those mornings, Matt, those cool mornings, open the windows this morning.

[A]

Turn the attic fan on was amazing.

[B]

Ideal. Pop the.

[A]

Pop the window open next to my. The new coffee bar that I'm working on. I got the cool breeze blowing in.

[B]

So good.

[A]

Just enjoying these days.

[B]

Yep.

[A]

Because it's not going to last.

[B]

So do that. Those ceiling fans, man. Ceiling fans. Turn them on. It's amazing what they make you feel. I want to say they make your skin feel like six degrees cooler than the actual temperature. Maybe it's more six to eight degrees.

[A]

Our ceiling fan in our bedroom, it's got six different settings. And in the summer, I keep it

[B]

on5.5, which is pretty fast. Yeah. And it's significant, but it makes a massive difference. Right. And then it means you don't have to turn your AC on. Take. Turn your AC down to 72. Because the ideal temperature is probably, well, like 78 degrees. Because every degree you turn it up is going to save you a meaningful chunk on your utility bill. So the more you run your AC at like 72, my kids sometimes Matt upstairs, they'll lower it to like 70. And I'll go up there and I'll be like, guys, what's going on here? Like, we gotta talk. This is. And. And maybe I do 70 at night. Do you at night? That is low at night.

[A]

That's because we like to sleep.

[B]

Yeah, it does help with sleep. So you gotta, like when you're going during the day.

[A]

During the day, baby, I'm cranking that thing up to 78. No problem. Like, that's. And we. I mean, we're kind of joking a little bit about the LEDs, because, like, yeah, that doesn't really make that much of a difference. But running your AC for your entire floor, an entire floor, your entire house, when you're not even there, dude, that's like one of my favorite sort of rituals before I leave to come here to our clubhouse is going around and shutting down the house and making sure everything is like, you know, a little fan here, a little light there in the bathroom. Not that big of a deal. But if I forget to. You know, why. So I don't have a smart thermostat yet in our upstairs. I tried to get one because it's a new year, but I think the power company the rebate because it's heavily discounted, but I guess I had purchased my other two within the past 12 months. And so it thinks that I'm not eligible. So I've been waiting. I keep checking it because I want to get a smart thermostat up there so I don't have to.

[B]

And that's another way to help, like it might be worth the money or discounted or even free from a lot of your utility providers. Exactly.

[A]

But as of now, it's just, that's the one that I have to manually get over there and punch all the way up, up to 78 first thing in the morning, by the way.

[B]

Last thing on that. Just some people think that the expensive upgrades, like, oh man, if I put new windows in, that's going to save me a lot of money.

[A]

Oh my gosh, how much are windows?

[B]

They're so expensive. And no, like the payback is not going to have it. Get new windows because you really want new windows and your windows don't like open, they're painted shut, you know, they suck. Get new windows if that's the case and you've got the money, but don't get new windows because you're going to. You think they're going to save you a bunch on your utility bills.

[A]

Yeah. So some folks are dealing with higher prices by borrowing more money to get by. Americans of all income levels are increasingly relying on and just getting a bit more comfortable with debt in order to finance the lifestyle that they want or that they've been, you know, become more accustomed to. And this is a lifestyle that needs to be a bit more tied to reality. Right. Something that can be sustained. And you're not doing that when you are borrowing those funds. We shared recently some data from Money Management International and it reflects a massive uptick in personal loans over the past five years that was happening as interest rates were rising as well, so making this debt even worse. And man, I think it's just really important to develop a distaste and then eventually kind of a like a hatred for all forms of debt aside from your mortgage. By doing that, that is how you will ultimately become financially free, like having some margin of financial freedom to eventually the ultimate becoming financially independent. I know it feels like you're folks out there might be stuck between like a rock and a hard place, but there is still room for individual actions. And that's what we're talking about here. Right. Like we're not, you know, we joked a little bit about policy and what's, what's going on there, but we don't have much control or ability to individually change what's happening at that level. But within our own homes, within our own budgets and our own personal finances, we can make a massive difference. Despite the range of economic happenings that we have no influence on, it does

[B]

feel like it takes maybe just a little More shrewdness, a little more paying attention. Yeah. Because, yeah, things are tighter instead of

[A]

just like living, continuing, continuing on the way that you've been living. Right. Like, no, no. Like this is a time if things are tight and you're considering, it's like, oh man, we've got less margin. Oh, we actually are living on debt. Look at your discretionary spending. Like, what changes can you make in your life in order to allow yourself to not pay the interest?

[B]

It makes me think of how people reacted to the Great Depression, Matt, and how people who went through it. Like, most of us have someone or had someone in our family who lived through the Great Depression and, and the things that stuck with them in terms of how they live their lives and how they handled their money. They were like, oh, I'm never going there again. And because of that, they were often hyper frugal. And I'm not saying that you need to reuse your Ziploc bags 22 times or something like that before you throw them away, but we could all stand to learn a little something from that too. And as we see these increasing pressures of inflation, just know. Well, that sounds so antiquated, right? To live kind of the way people did through and post Great Depression. But there's a reason why people buckled down and made changes. And some of these suggestions that we make is, I think some of them can sound like, oh, turn your ceiling fan on. And maybe it sounds a little goofy, but it's those small things that add up that make a real difference. Like if you do like 40 of the things that we talk about on the show over time, like, oh my goodness, it's like a multitude of small things adds up into like a big difference.

[A]

Right? Yeah. It's not just the latte factor. It's the latte factor plus the AC factor, plus the Ford Expedition factor, plus the used clothes factor, the used iPhone, it's all those things added up. And that's one of the things I don't like about being like, oh, yeah, just by eliminating this one expense, then you'll eventually be able to become a millionaire. No, it's not that one thing. It's just adopting that same life, that mentality and that behavioral approach to multiple things in your life when it really does make a big difference.

[B]

And if we don't want people to do it out of like, anxiety, and I get it, like there's some anxiety inducing things right now, but we want people to do it, like proactively taking control of their lives like that is that's the recipe, man. And that's what that's what we're all about here at how to Money.

[A]

That's right. Hey, leave us a review if you haven't already. Head over to Apple Podcast, wherever you might listen. Helps us to get the word out to all those poor souls who had never heard us talk about money.

[B]

Joel but they need to hear.

[A]

You can find show notes [e-mail] otherwise that's going to be it. So buddy, until next time.

[B]

Best friends out.

[A]

Best friends out. Did you burn your arm? Yep, on the oven pulling the Brussels sprouts out.

[C]

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[D]

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[E]

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[A]

This is an iHeart podcast guaranteed human.