Friday Flight - Moneyless Millionaires, Credit Card Churning & AI Goes E-Commerce #1053

Summary

---

How to Money: Friday Flight – Moneyless Millionaires, Credit Card Churning & AI Goes E-Commerce (#1053)

Release Date: October 24, 2025
Hosts: Joel & Matt

---

Episode Overview

This Friday Flight edition of How to Money sees hosts Joel and Matt tackle the creeping costs of simple hobbies, the complexities facing modern millionaires, the growing prevalence of AI in our spending lives, and the pros and cons of credit card churning. The duo bring their signature blend of practical financial advice, personal anecdotes, and wry humor, all focused on helping everyday listeners navigate money decisions with more clarity. The show also features memorable segments on protein powder scandals, the subscription craze (from car washes to digital tools), and resources for managing medical costs.

---

Main Themes & Key Discussion Points

1. The “Running Industrial Complex”

(Start ~04:35, In-depth 05:30–11:22)

Key Idea:
Running is a pure and affordable way to engage in fitness, but it’s now embroiled in consumerism—high-end gear, pricey travel races, and targeted ads threaten to turn it into an expensive hobby.

Highlights:

• Joel’s Marathon Experience: Joel completed his first marathon with help from a long-time listener, Greg—on his 104th marathon!

  “I don’t think I would have done nearly as well if it wasn’t for Greg...it almost felt like one of those monkey backpacks where I’m holding onto the tail and he was dragging me all the way. But it was more of, like, verbal kindness that dragged me along.” —Joel (05:00)

• Affordability vs. Hype:

  “Running is this sport in its essence. It’s like the purest, one of the purest things you can do as a human…But it feels like running is starting to get hijacked by this American consumer mentality.” —Joel (06:08)

• Race Entry Fees & “Tour” Packages:
  Elite race entries like London’s marathon may cost as much as $4,000 through tour operators, sparking a debate about “bucket list spending” versus the purity of running.

  “If you have the money to do it...this needs to be your splurge. This needs to be your craft beer equivalent… But again, you can spend very, very little money on this activity, this hobby, this sport... or you can spend a ton of money and that guarantees your ability to visit London.” —Matt (10:11)

• Alternatives and Charity:
  Some marathons allow runners to enter by raising money for charity, which Joel advocates as a more meaningful route.

---

2. Protein Powders & Health Product Hype

(11:22–14:10)

• Lead in Protein Powders:
  A recent Consumer Reports article claims some plant-based and chocolate protein powders have high lead levels; context provided on regulatory differences (California’s Prop 65 vs. FDA).

  “My biggest takeaway was the fact that the proteins that were plant-based had significantly higher amounts of lead...And in addition, the chocolate versions also have much higher levels.” —Matt (13:10)

• Smart Shopping:
  Matt recommends whey-based, budget-friendly protein from Aldi—but cautions: always check ratings when possible.

---

3. Do We Get Worse With Money as We Get Richer?

(14:10–19:44)

• Wall Street Journal Insights:
  As income rises, people often abandon the budgeting habits that built their wealth, leading to a surprising rise in “cash-strapped millionaires.”

  “People become more adept at like guesstimating or assuming things about their finances than they are at paying attention to the specifics.” —Joel (15:00)

• Moneyless Millionaires Defined:
  Millionaires with wealth “locked up” in real estate or retirement accounts have little liquidity.

  “Those dollars are tied up in retirement accounts. It’s tied up in home equity...those things are--they don’t just sell for your money.” —Matt (17:04)

• Roth IRA Hack:
  Roth IRA contributions are accessible tax and penalty-free (not investment gains), so regular contributors have flexibility if truly needed.

  “There is the possibility to access those funds...if you feel like a cash-strapped millionaire, your Roth contributions might at least make you feel less so.” —Joel (19:36)

---

4. AI Goes E-Commerce: Opportunity or Risk?

(19:44–22:16)

• Walmart & OpenAI Partnership:
  Walmart will soon allow shopping via ChatGPT, with OpenAI’s AI browser on the horizon.

  “I’m a little wary of this…I was talking to someone who was using ChatGPT for a home remodel project and she’s like, it’s giving me the best suggestions about all these things to buy. …it also just speeds up the process and makes it easier to spend in ways that are maybe a little more frivolous.” —Joel (20:45)

• Potential Risks:
  AI-enabled “frictionless shopping” could increase unintentional or unnecessary consumer spending and further challenge customer loyalty.

---

5. The Subscription Tsunami – Car Washes as a Case Study

(22:16–24:12)

• Car Wash Subscriptions Proliferate:
  One chain, Mr. Carwash, now gets 75%+ of revenue from recurring memberships.

  “Car wash locations are pricing their single washes...like a dollar less than the monthly subscription is, where it’s basically trying to tip you over into joining.” —Matt (21:34)

• Cautionary Note:

  “It’s in the best interest of that business, but not necessarily in yours. And so even if you don’t use the service, you’re still paying for it. So just pay attention to your finances and where your money is going.” —Matt (23:40)

---

6. Ludicrous Headline of the Week: “Wacky Labels Are Killing Craft Beer”

(27:42–33:33)

• Hosts’ Rebuttal:
  Joel and Matt refute a Times opinion blaming cartoonish branding for craft beer’s challenges, pointing instead to market oversupply, changing consumer habits, and shifting demand.

  • Quote:

    “We have this massive run up in craft breweries from essentially a handful to a handful in every city, and…consumer tastes have changed. So it’s not just that we’re drinking less craft beer, we’re drinking less in general.” —Joel (30:08)

• Parallel to Other Trends:
  Craft beer’s trajectory mirrors other fitness and consumer booms (e.g., CrossFit, boutique gyms), underscoring lessons about over-investing in trends.

---

7. Credit Card Churning: When Does It Make Sense?

(33:33–39:21)

• What is Churning?
  Opening multiple cards solely for sign-up bonuses; may yield thousands in rewards over time, but only for the hyper-organized.

  “This is like a 3000-level class…not Personal Finance 101.” —Matt (36:55)

• Risks & Rules:
  Major issuers like Chase implement “5/24” rules to block serial churners. The process demands careful attention to detail—otherwise, risk fees, lost points, or credit score dings.

  “It’s also important to note that churning can lead to a harmed credit score, especially in the short term. …if you’re trying to get credit soon, that can be a problem.” —Joel (37:45)

• Premium Card Inflation:
  The hosts remark on annual fees approaching $1,000 for “premium” cards—great for extroverted points-maximizers, but a peril for most people.

---

8. Health Savings Accounts (HSAs) & Prescription Savings

(39:21–43:11)

• HSA Eligibility Expands:
  High-deductible health plans now come with greater HSA access; hosts advise investing in an HSA if possible rather than cashing it out early.

  “HSAs are truly going mainstream. …if you are able, take full advantage by paying for health care costs out of pocket and then investing within the HSA.” —Matt (39:35)

• Prescription Vending Machines:
  Amazon’s new machines debut at OneMedical clinics for instant scripts, but hosts note Costco and Mark Cuban’s Cost Plus Drugs as cheapest prescription resources.

  “Maybe you get it and you pay a few dollars more because it’s so super duper convenient. But I think especially if you have a recurring prescription need, check those other guys out. Cost Plus Drugs being my favorite right now…” —Joel (42:06)

---

Notable Quotes & Fun Moments

• On Frugality in Running:

  “I do feel a special satisfaction when I’m passing someone in their $200 super shoes in my $30 Adidas shoes.” —Joel (07:52)

• On “Moneyless Millionaires”:

  “Those things [homes, 401ks] are…tied up in retirement accounts, it’s tied up in home equity. …those dollars are tied up. They don’t just sell for your money.” —Matt (17:04)

• On Subscription Logic:

  “Everybody wants you to have a subscription, but is that in your best interest? It’s worth thinking twice.” —Joel (23:56)

• On Credit Card Churning:

  “If you’re an accountant, you can probably pull this off. If you’re a baker…if you’re a coder…if you’re an influencer?...less so.” —Matt (36:45)

• On Over-Complication in Consumer Hobbies:

  “All you really need is a decent pair of shoes…and even just like a Kirkland Signature disposable water bottle…But now we’ve got super shoes, we’ve got high-end gels, we’ve got fancy watches, recovery tools…” —Joel (06:43)

---

Timestamps for Major Segments

• Running Industrial Complex: 05:30–11:22
• Protein Powder Controversy: 11:22–14:10
• Money Habits of Millionaires: 14:10–19:44
• AI & E-Commerce: 19:44–22:16
• Car Wash Subscriptions & Subscriptions Creep: 22:16–24:12
• Ludicrous Headline (Craft Beer): 27:42–33:33
• Credit Card Churning: 33:33–39:21
• HSAs & Prescription Vending Machines: 39:21–43:11

---

Conclusion

This episode encourages listeners to be intentional with money—regardless of income level—by resisting unnecessary spending pressures (from marathons to memberships), keeping healthy financial habits alive, and staying skeptical of one-size-fits-all consumer trends. Whether running a marathon, shopping through AI, or churning credit cards, Joel and Matt argue for clear-eyed self-assessment and relentless attention to where your dollars actually go. They close, as always, in friendship:

“Best friends out.”

Transcript

[A]

This is an iHeart podcast.

[B]

If you've been listening to the show for a while, you know we care a lot about being intentional with our money and that includes how we give it away.

[A]

That is why we are big fans of Daffy, which is a modern donation platform and app for charitable giving that is also a donor advised fund, which means you can contribute cash, stock, ETFs or even crypto. You take the tax deduction right away and then send the money to over one and a half million charities, schools and other faith based organizations whenever you want with the funds that you've already set aside.

[B]

I've personally been using it to send recurring donations for causes I really care about like my church and a local nonprofit called Blueprint 58.

[A]

Same here. Yeah, I've got recurring donations going to my kids school. DAFY also keeps your receipts organized for tax season. But the best part is DAFI itself is a nonprofit with a mission to help people to be more generous more often. So if you want a better system for your giving, head to Daffy.org howtomoney and for a limited time you'll even get $25 to give to the charity of your choice. Visit Daffy.org howtomone today. I love entrepreneurship. I have been a small business owner for almost 20 years now, but it is tough to separate work from life. The business can be on your mind 24 7. So when you are hiring you need a partner that works just as hard as you do. And that hiring partner is is LinkedIn jobs. LinkedIn makes it easy to post your job for free, share it with your network and get qualified candidates that you can manage all in one place.

[B]

Here's how it works. Post your job for free or you can pay to promote share with your network. You can let your network know that you're hiring. You can even add a hiring frame to your profile picture and get two times more qualified candidates. So post your job for [e-mail] howtomoney that's LinkedIn.com howtomoney to post your job for free. Terms and conditions apply. Hey, it's Joel and Matt from how to Money. I was just in Seattle, Matt, and honestly, it's one of the greatest cities in the world. Particularly in the summer. I went on this run by the water. We hopped a ferry across Puget Sound. Just an unforgettable trip.

[A]

That's what struck me. What seems normal to a homeowner. It can be the thing that makes a guest trip really special.

[B]

Which is why hosting your home on Airbnb Makes sense, right? Travelers are looking for those authentic, memorable spaces. And if you don't have time to manage all that well, Airbnb's co host feature makes it easy. A local co host can. With everything from creating the listing to keeping your place running smooth.

[A]

Find a co [e-mail] host.

[B]

Welcome to how to Money. I'm Joel.

[A]

I'm Matt.

[B]

Today we're talking moneyless millionaires, credit card churning and AI goes e commerc.

[A]

Of course, we've got to talk about a little bit of AI like, it's just going to be a recurring segment, I think ongoing in perpetuity until the.

[B]

AI tells us to stop. And we will obey our AI overlords at every turn. Well, I think it's, it's kind of like when tariffs were just starting out too. It's like we ended up talking about it every week because it was a thing and AI is still happening and they will impact our holidays and I'm sure we'll talk about it again. But AI just, there's a lot of going on right now.

[A]

Yeah, that is true. But it's another beautiful morning, Joel. We didn't coordinate our runs this morning, by the way. Did you go for a run this morning?

[B]

No, still recuperating, which.

[A]

Oh my gosh. So yeah, we talked last week about doing our couples run and I can't believe that I didn't wish you well wishes for your upcoming marathon last weekend. First one, I didn't wish you good luck. And what would have been fun is.

[B]

I knew you felt it in your heart.

[A]

I didn't. I'm sorry. If I would have, I would have, I would have said it. It completely. I totally blanked and didn't think about it until later that afternoon where I.

[B]

Was just like, oh my gosh, you.

[A]

Got the race on, you know, on Sunday.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

But I would have loved it because I would love for you to have like live streamed it and then for all of our listeners to send you little encouraging notes along the way. Like if they could have live tracked where you were and how fast you were running. It's like, Joel, you don't need to stop for water. Keep moving, bro.

[B]

The only thing that would have made it more painful is if I try to run it with like a selfie stick and bidding myself all the time.

[A]

Which sometimes you do see people doing that like on a 10K. Did you see anything like that?

[B]

No, I did see one passed out on the side of the road like non responsive. And I was like, oh, God, we.

[A]

Need a medic over here.

[B]

Yeah, he was getting the help he needed.

[A]

Okay. Yeah.

[B]

Tough to watch. Okay, let's talk about running for a second. Can we talk about. So I will mention I did run a marathon this past weekend. It was my first marathon of all time.

[A]

You did great.

[B]

I did well, I guess hit your.

[A]

Goal that you're going for.

[B]

So.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

So I was happy with that. That's a win big thanks to listener GRE Greg, by the way, who ran the same marathon. This was his hundred and fourth marathon.

[A]

Because Greg is, I did not know.

[B]

That, an absolute beast.

[A]

Oh, my gosh.

[B]

And he helped me. I don't think I would have done nearly as well if it wasn't for, like, Greg. It almost felt like I had, like.

[A]

Oh, he lets you piggyback.

[B]

Yeah. It almost felt like one of those monkey backpacks where I'm holding onto the tail and he was dragging me all the way. But it was more of, like, verbal kindness that dragged me along, so. And just his, like, persistent spirit, so. But yes, it's a painful endeavor, but it made me think too, Matt. Like, upon this accomplishment, I was reflecting on it. There was an article about the running industrial complex. And I was like, this is kind of something I'm actively trying to fight as someone who's gotten kind of deep into the running space.

[A]

Good luck fighting it. It's going to be. It's going to be tough.

[B]

It's tough, man. It's tough. But the Business Insider had this article that kind of spoke to me as someone who has finally gotten around to enjoying running over the past two years. Hated it beforehand, but, man, running is this sport in its essence. It's like the purest, one of the purest things you can do as a human. Like walking and running. Right. They're like some of our most basic instincts. But it feels like running is starting to get hijacked by this American consumer mentality. It feels like everything pure starts to start to go in that direction because all you really need is a decent pair of shoes and even just like a Kirkland Signature disposable water bottle. They cost like a quarter when you buy them in the big packs or maybe even. But now we've got super shoes, we've got high end gels, we've got fancy watches, recovery tools, like all this kind of stuff in the running space. And so many people are turning, like the simplest human action into this overly expensive hobby. And I think this is partly because of tailored ads seeking you out on the social medias. Like I've been getting these ads for. And I don't.

[A]

Everything running, huh?

[B]

Yeah, Everything running.

[A]

Yeah. There we go. That's why I said, good luck.

[B]

Even these, even these gummies that have THC in them, they've been feeding. I'm like, I don't partake, but they've been inundating me with these gummies. Like, this is what's gonna make you run. Awesome.

[A]

Is the idea that you don't feel any of the pain. Are you just totally blissed out and you're setting PRs?

[B]

I guess. I mean, if that's actually the case, I'm not sure you consider. But these tailored ads. And then I think there's also the pressure you feel as other people are nerding out on getting stuff for running. But I think it's eminently possible to enjoy the activity you're doing without overdoing it. On the stuff thing, it just makes me think of our friend of the show, Michael Easter. He talks about gear versus stuff. There's certain gear that you might. That might be like, helpful to you as a runner, but then don't let it turn into just like buying stuff and accumulating more stuff.

[A]

Well, some people like the stuff, you know, and that's the thing. They're doing it because they enjoy it, but it's not necessary. And I think that's what you're getting at, that you can literally, you don't need a new pair of shoes even just you can put on a pair of walking shoes or running shoes that you already own and go for a jog. That's how you get to start to be a runner.

[B]

I do feel a special satisfaction when I'm passing someone in their 200, something dollar super shoes in my $30 Adidas shoes. Like, I just.

[A]

They're all decked out. Yeah, baby, I love it. Passing them in my ebay running shoes that I just actually purchased that were. Did we talk about this? No, they're brand new.

[B]

I didn't know ebay was still. Oh, I think you're talking about East Bay.

[A]

That was, you know, that catalog we've talked about? The. The sports shoes? No, my ebay shoes. My eastern shoes. Oh, of course. Well, they were used, but they were like new. I mean, and you can always tell a good shoe seller on ebay will put a picture, a close up picture of the tread. And when you can see not only the tread still there, but even the slight texture that they'll put on the bottom of the tread. Sometimes that's when you Know, oh my gosh, this shoe is worn like once or twice. It's an excellent condition. And those are the shoes I wore this morning when I went for my run. But going beyond gear, the Times detailed how runners are actually paying a large amount of money for these race tours in order to be able to compete in the most elite races. So for instance, the almost impossible to get into London Marathon, well, you pay a quote unquote tour operator $4,000 and that ensures that you will get a bib, although it only actually calls you, costs you $200 in race fees. And they include other stuff too, like meals and they kind of pamper you. Yeah, it's again, it's the tour, so it's parity. It's the package.

[B]

Between paying for the package and just going through. Oh yeah, it's hard to get into. So which means you're in this lottery and almost nobody gets. But if you do, the race fees are pretty minimal.

[A]

They're reasonable.

[B]

But the only way to actually get in is to pay the really, really, really high tour fee.

[A]

Well, yeah. So what do you think about that? Are you split? Because if you had a life goal to run them, like if you're hitting all the majors and they kind of highlight that.

[B]

That's one of my friend is doing. Friends is doing. Yeah, he just like went down to Australia to run. Yeah, the newest, there were six, now there's nine.

[A]

But do they, do they update the medal like the, instead of the six, the six star medal? Like do you have to go and rerun all of, I don't know, majors?

[B]

I'll have to ask him.

[A]

But if that is a life goal of yours, this is how you can guarantee entry. And one of the persons who is profiled in the, in the article talked about how, well, what if I, I could get hit by a bus tomorrow. I could have a quote unquote career running, career ending, sort of injury. And if you've got the money, I think I'm all for folks taking this.

[B]

Route because skipping the line. But you pay a ton of money to skip.

[A]

Yeah, it does cost a lot of money and there are other perks. But if you have the money to do it. I'm not. Am I personally going to do that? No, because I don't, I don't care. Like, this totally needs to be your splurge. This needs to be your craft beer equivalent. And you of course need to have the money on hand. But again, you can spend very, very little money on this activity, this hobby, this sport, something that Causes you to live a healthier lifestyle or you can spend a ton of money and that guarantees your ability to visit London.

[B]

I guess I just, I hate seeing something that is so pure overrun in some ways with, like, people grabbing for your dollars. And I don't know, it makes me think too, there are other ways to get into some of those elite races. I have a friend who's going to run the New York City Marathon, which I think is next weekend. And he. I think the way he got in was raising money for charity. And this is a common way to get into some of those premium races too. And maybe it's a better way, right, like, than just being like, I like it. The easy thing to do is to fork over $4,000 to the, to the race tour. The maybe slightly harder way, but less costly way is to raise money for charity. And also the ultimately best way to proceed.

[A]

Totally. Okay, so quickly, while we're talking about fitness stuff, did you see the consumer. I'm sure you saw the Consumer Reports article about protein powder and lead.

[B]

Oh, yeah, because we talked about protein powders on a recent Ask How Money episode.

[A]

So I don't know how much of it that you read, but basically Consumer Reports, which is a great institution, great, great work that they're doing over there.

[B]

One of the few magazines worth subscribing to and paying for.

[A]

Yeah. That being said, I'm not totally sure if I agreed with their findings. So the headline is like, oh, you know, all of these protein powders that we tested have 5x the amount of lead that you should.

[B]

The daily recommended intake. But I thought this daily recommended intake is zero.

[A]

But it was a bit alarming as someone who consumes protein myself. But then I read a little bit more and I saw that the standard for which they set the limits on the lead wasn't, let's say, the FDA's standard, but it was California's Prop 65, which.

[B]

Which is more strict.

[A]

It's much more strict. The FDA is. It's like, I think 10 times. It's 10 times more lenient than California's.

[B]

So would all the protein powders fit under the FDA recommendation?

[A]

I didn't check that because I was just looking for my protein.

[B]

But they do have a list and I think it is worth it if you are a protein powder enthusiast looking to see because there is a dramatically different amount of in. In some of the. So I was like, like orgain was somewhere kind of in the middle, which is the one they sell at Costco. Costco. Where did your Aldi one fall, it.

[A]

Didn'T fall, they didn't rate it, it wasn't rated. So I was super bummed. But I will point out. So all that to say, I don't think folks should be overly alarmed, but it is. I think it's good for these different manufacturers and companies to see that, hey, there's somebody on the beat. There's someone who is watching this. And if one of these companies sees a dramatic decline in their sales because of this, maybe they're gonna switch things up a little bit, maybe source their ingredients a little bit better. But my biggest takeaway was the fact that the proteins that were plant based had significantly higher amounts of lead. So like pea protein, basically. And that's because plants absorb minerals from the ground, including lead, of course. And in addition to that, the chocolate versions also have much higher levels of lead as well. Because chocolate's a plant.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

As opposed to. So all that being said, I still highly recommend my vanilla whey based protein from Aldi. It's the most affordable. It tastes really good too.

[B]

And probably, although not verified by Consumer Reports, probably has less lead than some.

[A]

Of those other ones, I'm guessing. So I went searching for it, but nobody's tested it yet. Okay. Watch the test come back and it's like off the charts. I'm just like a walking, you're killing yourself, glowing human being because of all that. All the lead that's leaching into my bones.

[B]

Maybe it turns you into some sort of marvel superhero. That'd be cool.

[A]

Yeah, I got bones like Wolverine.

[B]

Then it would be worth it. All right, big question here. Do you get worse at managing money if you have more of it? There was an interesting article about this. I believe it was in the Wall Street Journal. All signs, Matt, I think points a. Yes, and understandably so.

[A]

That's what your Magic 8 Ball says.

[B]

There is something about having limited means and kind of having to focus really in make money progress. Right. Like when you don't make much, budgeting is a necessity. It's not really a luxury. And so you, you have. It's easier to have like harder lines about eating out and then just kind of spending in general. It's easier to hold the line and to not make changes. But what this article was talking about was this. Like your income rises, it becomes easier to abandon some of those sound financial habits that maybe helped you get there in the first place. People become more adept at like guesstimating or assuming things about their finances than they are at paying attention to the specifics. And there was research from the University of Chicago almost like a decade ago that they referred to in this article. And it found that people living on less have the ability to see their financial decisions more clearly. Things do, I think, get hazier as you make more progress. And part of it is just literally the complexity ramps up as you're making more, as your financial decisions do have greater ramifications, greater tax ramifications. But I think this is a call that no matter where you fall on the income spectrum, tracking your spending and discussing your goals, those remain crucial things. I think I just don't want people, as they're making progress along the way. They just kind of like, I'm not going to listen to a personal finance podcast anymore. I'm not going to care about, track my spending anymore. I'm not going to be thoughtful about what subscriptions I have in my life anymore. I think those habits still matter.

[A]

I'm beyond that.

[B]

Yeah, exactly.

[A]

You are not beyond that. I mean, it's up to you. I guess it depends on how you want to spend your time, how you want to spend your energy.

[B]

But that can reverse itself.

[A]

Yes. And that's what we're pointing to here is that the kind of progress that you were able to make that got you to this point is not guaranteed to continue as you pay less attention to it. And it's one of the reasons I still literally do my Excel spreadsheet and track every single purchase that we make, every single penny that enters into our household. I know where those pennies are. On that note, a recent Bloomberg article documented the rise in cash strapped millionaires, which.

[B]

Those things seem like an oxymoron. Like, wait, cash strapped millionaire.

[A]

There's a difference.

[B]

Oh, don't. I'm shedding lots of tears for you.

[A]

No.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

So this is the moneyless millionaires that you refer to in the title. But the number of folks who have a net worth of $1 million plus it has grown dramatically in recent years. And we've seen more people participating in the stock market. We've seen a dramatic rise in different assets, homes. But more of those millionaires have very little access to that wealth.

[B]

It is.

[A]

Those dollars are tied up in retirement accounts. It's tied up in home equity. And those things are.

[B]

Yeah, they don't just sell for your money. Stocks from your 401k. Right. Or like a fund lifestyle or a.

[A]

Portion of your home.

[B]

Yeah. But what I was going to say.

[A]

Is in some ways I think this is great. Like, build that wealth. Do not touch it while you are while you're working. But it's also interesting to note too that beyond the 1 to 2 million dollars mark, and as you sort of advance into the upper, I don't know what you call these folks, the upper elite, the upper crust, the folks with millions upon millions, you see the level of wealth that is tied up in these illiquid assets decrease. Which makes sense, right? There's only so specifically like your home, there's only so much of a, so much home you can buy before you're just like, you know what, let's just invest it.

[B]

That's not what I hear.

[A]

Well, there are certainly, the Hamptons are calling. There are certainly very big and nice homes. It's just that not everybody wants to live in the gigantic mansion where they're dumping a ton of their wealth into that. But for most folks out there who are in a stage of life where they are trying to build their wealth, it's important to know your timeline. And I want to make sure that there are folks out there who have access to money for some of the different short term and for some of the different medium term goals that they might have. We often focus on building your wealth. And the vast majority, I think especially of our generation of wealth that is being built is within that 401k.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

There's a lock on it. And the only key to that lock, well, aside from a 10% penalty, is hitting a certain age. And so it's like a time, it's like on a time schedule. Right. And you know what, there are oftentimes going to be goals that we have in life where we are going to need more liquid, readily available cash.

[B]

And actually one of the other things maybe that might be worth mentioning here is this is why I like Roth IRAs. Why we like Roth IRAs so much, Matt, is because the Roth IRA contributions, if you are a regular maximizer of that Roth IRA over a long period of time, those contributions can be tapped penalty and tax free. And we don't typically recommend it. It's not like, oh, you're 38 and you've been maxing out your Roth for 10 years. Pull all those contributions out, great. But at least it is, there is the possibility to access those funds. And so I do see that as a plus if you're handling your money well and you do need access for, let's say a down payment on a house or something like that, or a more short term money goal that you have. I was talking to somebody the other day and he didn't even realize that Roth contributions were accessible. And so I was like, oh man.

[A]

Was that a good thing?

[B]

Let me tell you about this or.

[A]

A bad thing for him?

[B]

I always couch it right. I'm like, you might not want to go grab them all right now, but.

[A]

At least they are just know that it's there.

[B]

Yeah. So if you feel like a crash cash strapped millionaire, your Roth contributions might at least make you feel less so. Let's talk about AI for a second. Matt. Not, not for too long, but I think some people are probably tired of hearing about AI we're talking about here. Heard a lot of talk about the AI bubble in the stock market recently. Is there one? Isn't there one? That's a really good question. Maybe let's not weigh on, on that right now, but maybe soon. But. But Walmart and OpenAI actually announced a partnership last week. That's what we'll talk about and that's the AI is going E commerce soon. You're going to be able to shop for Walmart supplies on ChatGPT. OpenAI also announced a new browser that has like their AI fully built into it. I think it's only available for Mac users right now.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Atlas, yeah. So curious to see how that goes because I'm sure that's going to incorporate more E commerce as well, which is going to allow ChatGPT to, or OpenAI as a company to monetize their product better. But man, I'm a little wary of this. I think this is inevitable in a lot of ways. But we're already tempted to consume everywhere all the time. And of course, yeah, I was going to find a way to monetize their product through direct sales and through partnerships with, with companies that sell products. But it's just also another place that we need to be wary of if we're trying to rein in our spending because we might start. I was talking to somebody, the other who was using ChatGPT for a home remodel project and she's like, it's just giving me the best suggestions about all these things to buy. And in some ways that's cool, but in some ways it also just speeds up the process and makes it easier to spend in ways that are maybe a little more frivolous. So I guess I'm just a little bit nervous about this development.

[A]

I am as well. It'll also be interesting to see how AI impacts retailers because currently AI shopping is pretty small, but it could turn into this tidal wave, right, where it's reducing online site visits, also reducing customer loyalty. As well. But on the note of loyalty, subscriptions actually help retailers out in that regard. And I want to specifically talk about car washes because the car wash subscriptions are proliferating. Car wash locations are pricing their single washes. Like if you just kind of roll up randomly at like $1 less than what the monthly subscription is, where it's basically trying to tip you over into joining, having that payment on a recurring basis to make it a no brainer.

[B]

It's like, why wouldn't I? It's only a dollar more. I'm gonna get the subscription. That's where the value's at.

[A]

I can hit this up as many times as I want this month. And the biggest player in that space, Mr. Carwash, they have over 2 million members and over three quarters of their revenue comes from recurring sub subscriptions, which is amazing. And I will say we fell prey to that. Not to Mr. Carwash specifically, but the one nearest us. It was really similar to that. It wasn't that much. And here's the weird thing is it was only supposed to be like a promotional rate, but they never raised the price.

[B]

Oh.

[A]

And so I'm contin. So we're still members. And because we hit it.

[B]

So what do you pay a month?

[A]

Like 20 bucks? Maybe like 21 or something like that. But that was the quote unquote promotional rate there at the beginning. And it was only a few dollars more than just what a single wash costs. But we go through it like twice a week.

[B]

Then you're getting your money's worth. I think we are.

[A]

And we've got this old crusty van and we're trying to make it look nice and we feel good about it and truly trying to take care of it. You know, when we get out of there and those tires look shiny, I'm like, man, those tires are gonna. They ain't gonna dry rot. I'll tell you what.

[B]

So I dropped my van off at the mechanic this morning and it was, it was so nasty. I felt a little ashamed because it had not been cleaned in so long. There's like cracker dust all over the front. I mean, there's just like, who knows what we use that napkin for that's in the corner. I know, I know. So I need to. I do not currently have a car wash subscription.

[A]

Yeah, well.

[B]

And I'm kind of reticent to do it.

[A]

I just, I think more people need to be right. Because when you are on that recurring subscription, it's in the best interest of that business, but not necessarily in yours. And so even if you don't use the service, you're still paying for it. So just pay attention to your finances and where your money is going.

[B]

Yeah. Yep. Everybody wants you to have a subscription, but is that in your best interest? It's worth thinking twice. And also, like, how often would you get your car washed if you didn't have a subscription? Probably far less. Would that be the worst thing in the world? All right, we got more to get to on this episode.

[A]

Include.

[B]

We're talking about credit card churning and a way to get your prescriptions easier and cheaper. We'll get to both of those right after this. As a small business owner, you don't have the luxury of clocking out early. Your business is on your mind 24 7. So when you're hiring, you need a partner that works just as hard as you do. That hiring partner is LinkedIn Jobs. When you clock out, LinkedIn clocks in. LinkedIn makes it easy to post your job for free, share it with your network, and get qualified candidates that you can manage all in one place.

[A]

Yeah, let me tell you how it works. First, you post your job. LinkedIn's new feature can help you write job descriptions and then quickly get your job in front of the right people with deep candidate insights. You either post your job for free or you pay to promote, which by the way, gets you three times more qualified applicants. And then just sit back and rest easy knowing that you are getting the highest quality candidates. Based on LinkedIn data, 72% of small business owners using LinkedIn said that LinkedIn helps them to find the best candidates. Find out why more than two and a half million small businesses use LinkedIn for hiring today. Find your next great hire on LinkedIn.

[B]

Post your job for free at LinkedIn.com howtomoney that's LinkedIn.com howtomoney to post your job for free. Terms and conditions apply. This episode is brought to you by Navy Federal Credit Union. Buying a car, it can be like a long road trip, right? There's negotiating prices. There can be lots of fees involved. It can be a difficult process. But with an auto loan from Navy Federal, you're on the highway to higher savings.

[A]

Navy Federal wants their members to save more on their next auto purchase. That's why they offer great rates, military discounts and pre approvals that are good for 90 days. Plus, they offer most decisions in seconds. And you could even get $200 when you refinance your auto loans from another lender with Navy Federal.

[B]

So if you want to save more on Your next auto purchase. Learn more and apply for an auto loan@navy federal.org Autoloans Navy Federal Credit Union Navy Federal is insured by NCUA Credit and Collateral subject to approval. Terms and conditions apply for military discounts. Refinanced loan must be at least $5,000 to be eligible for the $200. Terms and conditions apply.

[A]

Hey y', all, it's Joel and Matt from how to Money. Joel, you were just out in Seattle recently.

[B]

Weren, man, it was amazing. I went for one of the most glorious runs of my life. Along the waterfront. It had everything you could ask for. Chris Bear Mountain views, fairies gliding across the water.

[A]

Beautiful. I love it, man. Yeah, for us, our road trip through Charlottesville was a highlight. We actually splurged on a custom built Airbnb and it was well worth it. The house had these unique touches, like a poured concrete counter there in the kitchen with a built in drying rack. Super functional. It even inspired some ideas for our house.

[B]

Oh, plus, with a kitchen like that, you save money eating out.

[A]

Yes, exactly. That's what struck me. What seems normal to a homeowner. It can be the thing that makes a guest trip really special.

[B]

Which is why hosting makes sense, right? Travelers are looking for those authentic, memorable spaces. And if you don't have time to manage all that well, Airbnb's co host feature makes it easy. A local co host can help with everything from creating the listing to keeping your place running smooth.

[A]

Yeah, so while you are off making your travel memories, your home could be helping someone else make theirs. Find a co [e-mail] host all right, man, we are back from the break. It is now time for the ludicrous headline of the week, which is from the Times. The headline reads, and by the way, this is an opinion piece. This isn't like news you can use.

[B]

We're still mad about it.

[A]

I'm still mad about it. It's not an editorial though, Right? And so the author of this piece is showing his cards a little bit. He's sharing his opinion here and that's totally fine. We'll also share our opinion. Yeah, we haven't even gotten to the headline.

[B]

It's okay if this author has a dumb opinion. The headline take him to task for.

[A]

It reads, wacky labels and silly names are killing craft beer. And so a part of the reason too we're doing this is obviously we read it on our on our own, but a lot of listeners sent this one our way and wanted us to weigh in.

[B]

What do you guys think? Yeah, you guys will tell you all, you guys want to fight.

[A]

First of all, man, the premise isn't true. I think the labels, the fun names, Unicorn versus Ninja, some of the wackier names out there. It's not killing craft beer. Instead, I think it's fun. It helps you to remember the type of, like, there are so many different generic beers out there, Right? Like Generic Hazy ipa. That's a terrible name for a beer. When you've got these more unique names, it helps you to remember the beer. Obviously, you can't have a wacky, fun name and have it taste awful, but it helps you to. It helps to cement its place in your mind when you've got a sea of options available to you.

[B]

Yeah. Like Zombie Dust. Like, that's a name that you remember and you're like, floyd, I want to drink that again.

[A]

And I've only, I think, ever had that beer one time in my entire life, but I know that beer because it's called Zombie Dust. Wait, what's it? Four Floyds.

[B]

Three Floyd.

[A]

Three Floyds.

[B]

How many Floyds did it take to make this beer?

[A]

It worked part of the time, half the time. But the can art, it's just a fun part of the process as well. I just don't think craft beer needs to be boring. And I think this author, he might be revealing the fact that maybe he likes more of the generic stuff. You know, maybe he likes. Maybe he thinks he likes a craft beer, but maybe he's actually drinking Blue Moon. Or maybe it's more of an aesthetic thing. Right. Like, there are some great craft beers out there and they're rocking some really delicious. Like, I'm thinking of Main Beer Company. Yeah, super kind of generic. It's white lunch and dinner, white labels, pretty plain vanilla. But guess what? They make really good beers. And for folks who like a craft beer, but they don't like sparkles to be on their can art, like literally some beer. You know, some of these breweries, there's like sparkles coming off, coming off the label. You're not going to get that with Lunch by Maine Beer Company.

[B]

I think the thing that the author doesn't really get about why craft beer is struggling now is the supply and demand equation.

[A]

That's more of.

[B]

That's what I think.

[A]

That's what's going on here.

[B]

We have this massive run up in craft breweries from essentially a handful to a handful in every city, and they've just proliferated to such an extent that the supply has just become overwhelming. And then the Demand is also going down. People are drinking a lot less in general. I think this is like an ever present story in markets. Lots of money gets poured into the trendy space. The early movers in that space do well, especially those who sell and get out early. Think about, Matt, some of those smaller craft brewers or medium sized craft brewers who were selling to the big guys and how much money they made in the heyday, they were crushing. They walked away happy. But I think in just 15 years, the number of craft breweries gone up 6x, something like that. And consumer tastes have changed. So it's not just that we're drinking less craft beer, we're drinking less in general. Less alcohol. Yeah, there's more spiked seltzers and stuff like that. But it's also just that people are like, I'll take the NA option or, or I'll stick to soda or water or whatever.

[A]

People are watching their wallets, watching their pocketbooks.

[B]

It's not like people are like, the names are too zany. I'm out. Is there a personal finance lesson in this? I think investing in trends can potentially be your friend, especially in those early days. It was. But it can also come back to bite you. And we're seeing craft breweries closing across more of this country now than open. And also we're lucky, we have more delicious craft breweries brewing choices than ever. And yeah, all in all, I think.

[A]

It'S a net good, it's a net positive. And yeah, honestly, it makes me think of like, I think of other industries or things that kind of coincided with the craft beer movement. It makes me think of like CrossFit. And not to like take this back so pointedly to like fitness or whatever, but I, I want to say that that Trend peaked like 10 years ago or so. And if you were someone who's just like, I want to do that, I'm going to open a gym. Just know that, man. Getting a brick and mortar, signing a lease, buying the equipment, getting trainers, training staff to be able to run your classes, like that's a really expensive endeavor as opposed to trying something on your own that might be more. It's got lower stakes. But yeah, there's always trends. It makes like even like the boutique spin classes or whatever. Like we, I feel like we've seen a pretty, pretty sharp decline in that as well. Not that folks aren't doing it on their own, but they're finding more affordable alternatives.

[B]

Well, and so many brands got in on the action and then there was a spin class, soul cycle, Orange Theory on Every corner. And at some point there just wasn't enough demand to be able to satisfy investors and gym owners. And so some of those places are going bust.

[A]

Yeah, going out of business. Totally. And in the end, I think my biggest takeaway too is just that the numbers are changing when it comes to if you were interested in starting a business like a local brewery. Because before it's like, oh, if you got big enough, maybe you could start distributing. And oh yeah, we're gonna start, we're gonna start shipping our beers across the country. And all of a sudden it's this national phenomena as opposed to what is, what's taking place now, which is that brew pubs that are succeeding are the ones that are able to create a great space where folks can come to it literally is contributing local. Yes, it's contributing to the local culture and the sort of the flavor of the town. And that's really important. And that's something. I don't think that that will go out of style.

[B]

I think those are replacing old school bars that serve a bunch of different beers from a bunch of different breweries, Those hyper local craft breweries. You're like, this is my local bar now and I just drink beers by you guys Pretty much. Exactly, yeah. Which I'm down with. Matt, let's talk about credit card churning. The New York Times, they profile this practice this week. And churning is essentially when people sign up for lots of credit cards in a fairly short period of time. And it is possible to sign up for even like dozens of credit cards and making money from those signup bonuses along the way, typically over the course of years. And the article profiled how lots of people have reaped essentially tens of thousands of dollars in cash back and free travel by going, going the credit card churning route. It's a lot of money, but I guess it's not surprising as signup bonuses have gotten richer over the years. This is an extreme example of the flip side of the credit card universe. Where traditionally you think about the 50 to 60% of people who don't pay off their credit card balances, they are the people you think of as getting taken advantage of by the credit card companies. Well, this is kind of like a Robinhood esque scenario where these credit card churners boldly go forth to say, no longer will we allow you to take advantage of people. Or actually at least we're going to try to take advantage of you on the flip side and take those sign up bonuses without giving you any sort of carrying a balance or paying you Any interest for the privilege of making this money off your backs. The credit card companies, Matt, they load churning like they hate the term in and of itself. I think it makes them shudder to their core. They really don't want those kinds of customers. But there's also not a whole lot that they can do about it. But I guess, like, for us, what we should talk about is whether or not credit card churning makes sense for individuals and for people listening to this show.

[A]

Yeah, well, there are, there are some things they can do about it. Like they can limit your ability to sign up for.

[B]

That's true.

[A]

Well, I'm specifically thinking of Chase because they, I think it was like a 524 rule. Basically, within two years, they're limiting your ability to take advantage of an offer.

[B]

And I think what Chase's rule specifically is, and I don't know that any other credit card issuer has done this, is if you open up five cards within those two years, you can't even. We're just going to reject you outright when you apply for a Chase card. So it's not even just applying for Chase cards. It's like, how many cards have you applied for overall? If you've applied for too many, we think you're a churner. We don't want your business.

[A]

Yeah, and I was looking at a Southwest card recently too, and it was specifically calling out that, oh, this offer isn't available if you've received any benefit at all from one of our cards within the past two years. But from a personal standpoint, this is something that we want to warn people about. Like, we want you to beware before you attempt because you're going to need to pay attention very closely. You're going to need to have like, attention to detail skills in order to execute this properly. Like, if you're an accountant, you can probably pull this off. If you're a baker, bakers have to measure pretty precisely. If you are a coder, a programmer, these are all things that require precision.

[B]

What if you're an influencer?

[A]

Less so, I think if you were an influencer or like an artist.

[B]

What if you're a surfer?

[A]

This may not be the practice for you. A lot of folks out there who are really into this, they keep a spreadsheet where they're keeping up with it, they're checking it, and of course they certainly cancel or downgrade the cards before they're charged that annual fee. So just know that this is more. This is like a, like a 3000 level class. Right. This isn't like the Personal Finance 101 kind of class that we're talking about here. But even if you don't turn into a hardcore turner, which I don't know if we would recommend for many folks to even consider that. Be smart with your credit card usage and certainly take full advantage of the perks, though, that your card does offer. Right. These are benefits that they offer. Don't go out of your way necessarily to get as many of these as possible, but if there are perks, take advantage of them, certainly. And of course, golden rules of credit don't carry a balance.

[B]

It's also important to note that churning can lead to a harmed credit score, especially in the short term. Over time, if you have a bunch of credit cards open and you have a high credit limit, then it might actually improve your score. But especially in the short term, it can ding it. And if you're trying to get credit soon, that can be a problem. If you're trying to use your credit right, to get a loan or something like that, and your score is diminished, that can be. That can be an issue. And the stakes are higher than ever, too. Now, when we're talking about the premium credit cards that come with like the super duper high fees, top of the line Amex and Chase Options, their annual fees are not much under $1,000 now.

[A]

Matt, that's insane.

[B]

That's a, that's a really big annual fee to overcome. You have to get a lot of perks from that credit card.

[A]

It's not your dad's annual fee, Joel.

[B]

No, no, it's not like a $95 annual fee now. Feels like child's play.

[A]

Seems like a steal. Yeah.

[B]

And those cards do come with, like, significant potential benefits, but you often have to work really hard to get the benefits to make them matter and jump through some hoops where even some of them, it's like, oh, you want the full hotel credit? Well, you got to do the hotel stay in the first half of the year and the second half of the year, which, yeah, you just have to really pay attention to the fine print. And sometimes they want you to spend in ways that you otherwise would not have spent, which means you're like manufacturing spending. And so is that actually, is this card the best for you or is it actually encouraging you to spend in ways you would not have otherwise? Oh, and Citi just launched a new high end card, but it turns out they don't know what they're doing, apparently in this space. And so the Strata Elite.

[A]

Ooh, fighting words.

[B]

I mean, they.

[A]

Joel's, going after Citi.

[B]

People were locked out of their accounts for weeks without explanation. And so Citi was like trying to get in this game. They're like, we're going to, you know, chasing Amex. We're coming for you. And then they completely screwed the pooch on the launch.

[A]

They dropped the ball, man. Yeah. Okay. Let's talk about the rising costs of healthcare coverage. We touched on that last week. But it's going to cause many folks out there to opt for high deductible plans this year. That being said, at the same time, folks with bronze or folks with more of the catastrophic plans that are available through the exchange will, will also be HSA eligible. Now this is great, man. HSAs are truly going mainstream. And if you have access to one, certainly use it to save on taxes to be able to reduce the out of pocket costs that you might have associated with medical expenses. But if you are able, take full advantage by paying for health care costs out of pocket and then investing within the hsa. That's the ultimate way to use that account. It's not going to solve the high cost of healthcare in your life, but it can help to dull the pain a bit as you got more, more of your wealth building for the future.

[B]

And we're basically in open enrollment season or almost there for most people who are listening, Matt. And so the HSA and FSA maybe depending on which one you have available to you. Do not forget to take advantage of those and look into the specifics of how you can use them effectively, not just to save on taxes, but to grow your wealth health. We've got more information about those accounts up on our [e-mail] and Matt, while we're talking about healthcare, let's talk about prescriptions because I thought this was a really cool story. A prescription vending machine has now arrived on the scene.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Can you, like you remember how you people try to stick their hands up to get a Coke out of the vending machine? What if you do that with the meds? Do you think that's possible or. These are probably sophisticated, well made machines.

[A]

These are, these are fancier machines can just shake it and get, you know, Percocet, three bottles of ibuprofen.

[B]

Yeah. Well that's not even a prescription drug, so. That's true.

[A]

Yeah, but I'm not big on the meds.

[B]

Antibiotics we don't really do.

[A]

We don't. Yeah, I'm more of a spray Windex on it kind of guy. It's a big fat Greek Wedding reference.

[B]

Okay. Yeah, yeah, it's a long time ago. I don't remember that one. Although I did watch it, I think.

[A]

Rub some dirt on it, spray some Windex on it, drink some kombucha. We're a little crunchier. That's what I'm getting at. It's true.

[B]

So Amazon is launching these prescription vending machines. They're gonna be at one medical clinics across the country, which they have, I don't know if they own them or just have like a relationship with them, but it's gonna make it easier for patients to get basic meds right after an appointment, like an antibiotic or something like that. And I think it's cool, man. I think this is great. I think it's gonna make it a lot simpler for people to get their prescription, not even having to go down the street to get that prescription. And it's likely going to be cheaper than a lot of the big drugstores if Amazon's prescription pricing is any indication of what they're going to cost at these vending machines. But I also want to highlight the fact that they're probably not the cheapest. That's reserved typically for places like Costco and for Cost plus drugs. Those are the best, low cost places to turn for a prescription. So just, yeah, maybe you get it and you pay a few dollars more because it's so super duper convenient. But I think especially if you have a recurring prescription need check those other guys out. Cost plus drugs being like my favorite right now as I've done some shopping for a medication for our daughter recently and it was like by far the lowest, lowest. One other thing, Matt, for people who take a recurring prescription, like the longer you get for prescription length, you can get up to like 180 days for some prescriptions. It can save you a ton of money too. So like a 90 day prescription might be like 30 bucks and 180 day prescription might be like 40 bucks. And so sounds like a no brainer. Oh yeah. You're like, I'm saving a ton and you just don't have to think about it as often.

[A]

Yeah. Or get you a bottle of window cleaner and you're all set.

[B]

There you go.

[A]

All right, that's gonna be it for this episode, this Friday flight. You can find our show notes up on the [e-mail] we hope everyone has a fantastic weekend and we'll see you back here next week. So until then, best friends out. Best friends out. What's that pause all along?

[B]

Well, you usually say so until next time.

[A]

I did.

[B]

You said so until then.

[A]

Oh, did I?

[B]

Felt like you're in the headlights if you've been listening to the show for a while. You know we care a lot about being intentional with our money and that includes how we give it away.

[A]

That is why we are big fans of dafi, which is a modern donation platform and app for charitable giving that is also a donor advised fund, which means you can contribute cash, stock, ETFs or even crypto. You take the tax deduction right away and then send the money to over one and a half million charities, schools and other faith based organizations. Whatever you want with the funds that you've already set aside.

[B]

I've personally been using it to send recurring donations for causes I really care about, like my church and a local nonprofit called Blueprint 58.

[A]

Yeah, I've got recurring donations going to my kids school. Daffy also keeps your receipts organized for tax season. But the best part is DAFI itself is a nonprofit with a mission to help people to be more generous more often. So if you want a better system for your giving, head to dafy.org howtomoney and for a limited time you'll even get $25 to give to the charity of your choice. Visit daffy.org how to money today.

[B]

And.

[A]

Doug, here we have the Limu Emu in its natural habitat, helping people customize their car insurance and save hundreds with Liberty Mutual.

[B]

Fascinating.

[A]

It's accompanied by his natural ally, Doug. Uh, Limu is that guy with the binoculars watching us.

[B]

Cut the camera.

[A]

They see us. Only pay for what you [e-mail] Liberty Liberty Liberty Liberty Savings. Very underwritten by Liberty Mutual Insurance Company and affiliates.

[B]

Excludes Massachusetts.

[A]

Johnny Knoxville here. Check out Crimeless Hillbilly Heist, my new true crime podcast from Smartless Media, Campside Media and Big Money Players. It's the true story of the almost perfect crime and the nimrods who almost pulled it off.

[B]

It was kind of like the perfect.

[A]

Storm in a sewer. That was dumb.

[B]

Do not follow my example.

[A]

Listen to Crimeless Hillbilly Heist on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts or wherever you get your podcast. This is an iHeart podcast.