Friday Flight – Recycled Rags, Slow Shipping, & Sayonara Spirit (or not...) #1137

Summary

Podcast Summary: "Friday Flight – Recycled Rags, Slow Shipping, & Sayonara Spirit (or not...)"

How to Money – Episode #1137
Hosts: Joel & Matt
Date: May 8, 2026

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Episode Overview

This Friday Flight episode dives into several trending personal finance topics, including the fading of Spirit Airlines, the rise of professional thrift reselling, slow shipping as a new savings tactic, the impacts of negative car equity, and why more Americans are reconsidering traditional milestones like car upgrades and having kids. The hosts mix personal anecdotes with sharp financial analysis, always keeping the tone relatable, humorous, and optimistic about purposeful money management.

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Key Discussion Points and Insights

1. Personal Life & The True Cost of 'Free' Pets

• [02:39–05:42] Joel shares a family update about adopting a "free" rabbit, cautioning listeners not to overlook the hidden costs of "free" offers.
  • Quote [03:37, Joel]: “I know the secondary cost, Matt, of pet ownership, and I know that this free rabbit’s gonna cost me quite a bit of money over the years.”
  • Discussion on pet fostering as a potential financial trial run for would-be pet owners.

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2. Home Equity Boom vs. Rising Negative Car Equity

• [05:42–11:15] Analysis of home equity wealth hitting record highs, contrasted with worsening negative car equity.
  • Quote [06:12, Joel]: “Homeowners are going up, car owners are going down. 30% of car buyers trade in a car owing more money than it’s worth.”
  • Nearly half of these buyers opt for 84-month car loans, which the hosts call a terrible idea.
  • Advocate for driving cars longer, repairing instead of upgrading, and investing the savings.
  • Quote [08:44, Matt]: “It keeps people…it degrades their wealth and actually…it keeps them from building wealth.”
  • Opportunity cost highlighted: keeping old cars could mean an additional $246,000 over 20 years if invested instead.

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3. Secondhand Shopping Goes Pro

• [13:10–17:42] Exploration of the "professionalization" of thrift and secondhand resale, with online platforms and live-streaming resellers.
  • Quote [14:42, Matt]: “This is essentially what antique dealers have been doing forever…pickers.”
  • Implications for casual thrift shoppers—fewer deals, but new job and hobby opportunities emerge.
  • Fun side discussion on the cycling of fashion trends: “20 years is the average time it takes for something lame to become cool again” [17:36, Joel, citing Northwestern].

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4. Changing Shipping Timelines & Saving Money with Patience

• [20:11–22:55] Online retailers are experimenting with slower, cheaper shipping options; Amazon gives discounts for delayed delivery.
  • Planning ahead and patience rewarded—opposite of the “need it now” Prime mentality.
  • Matt and Joel highlight the savings potential by thinking ahead, both in shipping and other spending areas.

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5. Spending for Health & Longevity — When Money Isn’t a Magic Bullet

• [25:29–31:20] Discussion of an NYT article questioning whether spending more can prolong life.
  • Quote [27:56, Joel]: “It’s become an industry…It’s easy to think that spending more is the answer…but it doesn’t really have to cost that much.”
  • Hosts encourage listeners to focus on “solid sleep, regular exercise, drinking less, healthy diet, regular hangs with good friends”—as powerful (and cheap) longevity boosters.

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6. Having Kids — Cost, Trade-Offs, and Societal Impact

• [31:22–38:31] Discussion spurred by articles on young couples forgoing children due to cost and lifestyle tradeoffs.
  • Quote [33:10, Joel]: “Babies really don’t take much space at all...if someone says, ‘I’d rather travel and play golf than have kids, you do you.’”
  • Quote [34:36, Matt]: “This shouldn’t have been an article about the high cost of babies; it’s about tradeoffs.”
  • Argue that while kids cost money, foregoing parenthood for hobbies might not provide the same lasting fulfillment or societal benefit.
  • Matt goes on a passionate “traditional rant” about how declining birth rates shape the economic future.

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7. EVs, Gas Prices, and Consumer Habits

• [38:31–40:29] Recent surge in EV purchases discussed, partly driven by high gas prices.
  • Used EV market tipped as ripe for value hunters.
  • Quote [39:23, Joel]: “Going out and buying a brand new electric vehicle…is not always the best solution.”

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8. Sayonara, Spirit Airlines? Implications of Budget Airline Shakeup

• [40:29–44:30] Spirit Airlines abruptly cancels flights and faces collapse after failed merger and no government bailout.
  • Quote [42:43, Joel]: “Even if you don’t fly Spirit…you’re gonna miss them because they help to drive down prices with the other airlines.”
  • Discussion of consumer impact: loss of price pressure, fewer low-cost options.
  • Mention of a quirky (likely doomed) crowdfunding effort to buy and revive Spirit Air.
  • Quote [43:49, Matt]: “If it can allow…I just want there to be options for folks. And again, if I’m gonna put my money where my mouth is…you can’t give up the Spirit.”

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9. Parenting: Hardships, Joys, and Why It’s (Still) Worth It

• [44:33–45:15] Episode closes with a reaffirmation: parenting is hard but deeply rewarding—a recurring theme underlining the show’s optimism about the tradeoffs involved in living a “rich life.”

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• “I know the secondary cost...of pet ownership, and I know this ‘free’ rabbit’s gonna cost me quite a bit of money over the years.”
  — Joel [03:37]

• “It keeps people...it degrades their wealth and actually...it keeps them from building wealth.”
  — Matt [08:44]

• “20 years is the average time it takes for something lame to become cool again.”
  — Joel [17:36]

• “It’s become an industry…It’s easy to think that spending more is the answer…but it doesn’t really have to cost that much.”
  — Joel [27:56]

• “Babies really don’t take much space at all...if someone says, ‘I’d rather travel and play golf than have kids, you do you.’”
  — Joel [33:10]

• “This shouldn’t have been an article about the high cost of babies; it’s about tradeoffs.”
  — Matt [34:36]

• “Even if you don’t fly Spirit…you’re gonna miss them because they help to drive down prices with the other airlines.”
  — Joel [42:43]

• “If it can allow…I just want there to be options for folks. And again, if I’m gonna put my money where my mouth is…you can’t give up the Spirit.”
  — Matt [43:49]

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Timestamps for Important Segments

• [02:39]: The hidden costs of a 'free' rabbit
• [05:42]: Negative car equity and long-term financial impact
• [13:10]: The rise of professional secondhand sellers
• [17:36]: Fashion cycles and thrift shopping strategies
• [20:11]: Saving money with slow shipping and planning
• [25:29]: Does spending more really boost health and longevity?
• [31:22]: Choosing kids vs. hobbies, home space, and societal implications
• [38:31]: EVs and gasoline prices—changing trends
• [40:29]: Spirit Airline’s demise and what it means for travelers
• [44:33]: Parenting—wrapping up on joy and purpose versus cost

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Episode Tone & Style

• Lively, relatable, and friendly, with Joel and Matt’s signature blend of practical advice, humor, and personal stories.
• Nonjudgmental, nuanced discussion even on hot-button topics like family planning and societal trends.
• Emphasis on living intentionally, understanding long-term financial consequences, and being willing to challenge mainstream assumptions.

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For listeners who missed the episode, this summary captures both the financial wisdom and the engaging personalities of Joel and Matt, covering all the core themes and takeaways from Friday Flight #1137.

Transcript

[Matt]

This is an iHeart podcast.

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[Matt]

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[Joel]

Get [e-mail] future expenses charged by your investments and other costs and fees associated with trading or transacting in your account. Apply Fidelity Brokerage Services Member NYSE SIPC

[Matt]

let's say you've always wanted to take a spontaneous trip to the Caribbean. Well, here's the thing. If you get smart with your money, you can do things like that. With Empower, you can start making the most out of your money so you can go out and live a little. Isn't that why we work so hard to have some fun with our money, like treating yourself to something special or

[Joel]

spontaneously doing something extra for a loved one man? So use Empower and get good at money so you can be a little bad. Join their 19 million customers [e-mail] not an Empower client, paid or sponsored. Welcome to how to Money. I'm Joel.

[Matt]

I am Matt.

[Joel]

Today we're talking recycled rags, slow shipping and sayonara spir.

[Matt]

Joel, our beloved Spirit Airlines. Are they gonna go the way of the dodo?

[Joel]

It sure looks like it.

[Matt]

Seems like it is.

[Joel]

But are you gonna miss the yellow airlines in this game?

[Matt]

Although, well, I miss what they stand for and we'll get to that. That's not until you do.

[Joel]

In some ways I do and in

[Matt]

some ways I don't.

[Joel]

But we'll talk about the impact of Spirit going the way of the dodo bird. And we'll talk about the potential for the resurrection of spirit.

[Matt]

Yes, I'm excited about that.

[Joel]

Yeah. Okay. Before we get to all the headlines that we found interesting that matter to people's finances this week because that's what

[Matt]

the Friday flight is by the way, that's what this.

[Joel]

That's what the show is.

[Matt]

That's what we're getting with little updates sprinkled in here, which sounds like you got one.

[Joel]

Give a little quick family update, a pet update. What we might be getting an additional. One of Emily's friends offered us a free bunny.

[Matt]

All right.

[Joel]

And, I mean, I guess not another cat. No. We've had actually multiple offers for free rabbits recently, and we've turned a couple of them down. But on this one, I think we're gonna finally do it, and the kids are really excited. And I'm not excited because you didn't.

[Matt]

I feel like I've heard you share stories about you having a rabbit when you were younger.

[Joel]

I did, and it was a total sack of crap. And maybe I think part of it. I'll put the blame on us a little bit. We were bad pet owners when I was a kid, and we just were. I don't know. We didn't take the bunny out and play with it and stuff like that. And so that's. I'm just, like, worried that that's what's going to be the case here at our house. But it just made me think, too, that, like, free man. My eyes tend to light up when I hear the word free. But the.

[Matt]

Joel likes wheeling and dealing.

[Joel]

But I know the.

[Matt]

For an opportunity.

[Joel]

I know the secondary cost. Matt. Of pet ownership, and I know that this free rabbit's gonna cost me quite a bit of money over the years. Probably not as much as, like, a lot of other animals. Sure.

[Matt]

But, yeah. Six months from now, you're gonna be like, turns out, guys, I adopted the only diabetic rabbit out there, and I have to give it a shot every day.

[Joel]

Let's hope not.

[Matt]

Oh, my gosh.

[Joel]

Then I would be. I'd be really frustrated.

[Matt]

So why was the rabbit free? Are they tired of the rabbit, or did the rabbit have babies?

[Joel]

I think they had multiple rabbits. Yeah, I think they had multiple rabbits, and they were just like, we have animal overload here. Do you guys want to take.

[Matt]

How about you guys take some of our. Some of our pets?

[Joel]

So we're doing it.

[Matt]

We're doing it.

[Joel]

And we're gonna buy a hutch, and we're gonna buy the food, and we're so.

[Matt]

I'm glad to hear that the kids are pumped. Is Emily excited about it as well?

[Joel]

No. She's excited, too, and so maybe I'm

[Matt]

slowly turning into her mom.

[Joel]

I'm trying not to be a Grinch over here. She is so I'm trying not to be a grinch over here. And I'm just trying to, like, let the kids be joyful and be a little joyful too. And we were like debating nicknames. And then of course, I'm obsessed with Billy Strings. I was like, what about Billy Bunny?

[Matt]

Billy Bunny. And they were like, bunny Strings.

[Joel]

And everybody liked it, so. Oh, Bunny String. That's good too.

[Matt]

One of the two.

[Joel]

Yeah. So I think we're gonna go with that. That makes me a little, at least

[Matt]

a little less frustrated. Money strings. You know, some friends of ours, actually, they have been, I want to say they've been fostering a rabbit. So you are friends with tons of people, and that allows you to see there's lots of opportunity. Right. But let's say that someone's listening and they don't have friends who have a lot of pets. I will try to report back next Friday. How about that? I'll give myself one last and ask some friends of ours where it is, because they've fostered multiple pets before.

[Joel]

Okay.

[Matt]

And for them, it's like a way to try out if they're into looking after pets. But I'm pretty sure they currently have a rabbit, so I'll reach out to them and ask.

[Joel]

Yeah, I'm guessing you probably, what, hang onto that for two weeks to a month?

[Matt]

I have no idea. I'm sure the idea is that you grow attached to it and fully adopt it and take care of it, but yeah, that's funny.

[Joel]

Okay, well. And I'll keep people updated on how the bunny string situation goes.

[Matt]

Please do.

[Joel]

All right, let's talk about cars for a second. Matt. The amount of money that Americans have in home equity has never been higher, which is awesome. I think a lot of people are like, I feel rich, right? Let me tap that piggy bank in my home. Don't do it. But at least it's nice to know that you have more money built up if you are a homeowner in the value of your home. But when we're talking about equity, the negative car equity problem is just getting continually worse. So flip side of the coin.

[Matt]

It's like a K shaped equity economy.

[Joel]

Homeowners are going up, car owners are going down. That's right. 30% of car buyers trade in a car owing more money than it's worth. And the average amount of negative Equity now is $7,200. So that's essentially what then gets rolled into the next car loan. When someone makes an upgrade, they're like, hey, I'm trading In this car, I owe more than it's worth to the tune of, you know, almost 10 grand. Let's just roll that balance into the next car loan. For some it becomes a habit. They find themselves trading in cars that are worth tens of thousands of dollars less than what they owe. Especially in the case of like bigger fancier trucks and SUVs.

[Matt]

They like that new car smell. They only hang onto it for a couple of years. They haven't made a dent hardly on the equity balance, balance of that, of that loan.

[Joel]

They would have been better off, dare I say it, leasing.

[Matt]

I hate it. Oh my gosh. Yeah, that would have been, honestly for

[Joel]

some of these people it would have

[Matt]

been a better move. That's true.

[Joel]

Crazy to think about. And so these folks, in order to afford an upgraded ride, they offer a longer loan with a higher interest rate attached. Just compounding the problem, almost half of those people trading in a car that they have negative equity on Matt up for the 84 month loan, which is something we loathe over here at how to money. The payment isn't cheap, right? Closing in on $1,000 a month on average. And so like I kind of wish these 84 month loans didn't even exist, that they weren't even an option. But alas, we don't live in that, we don't live in that world. I would say this. No one in any situation should be taking one out, much less trading in a car with negative equity. The fact this is becoming a perpetual problem in our society, it worries me. The solution of course is to repair the car to keep it longer, to even deal with a car that you think is ugly or unattractive or breaking down more than you'd like. Time will heal the negative equity wound. Upgrading too early only makes it worse.

[Matt]

That's right, man. Yeah, it leads to worse problems. It goes from being this perpetual. Like a lot of times you think like compounding, generally speaking, it's this perpetual cycle of goodness, right, where the, you're earning interest and then your wealth grows. When you are rolling negative equity into future loans like this, it's a, it's a negative, it's like a negative consumption cycle, cycle essentially. And it keeps people, it degrades their wealth and actually I would say it doesn't degrade their wealth, it keeps them from building wealth. Because most of the time if this is something that you're doing, you probably didn't have a ton of wealth to begin with. It's not like you're actively choosing, oh yeah, let's just go ahead and spend all this money on our vehicles.

[Joel]

Which is why we continually, we hammer home the idea of how much a car ultimately can cost you.

[Matt]

It costs you so much money.

[Joel]

There's just the, all the money you're forking over for your ride can't go into those investment accounts to compound. And anybody who has a decent chunk of money sitting inside of their tax advantaged accounts, if you've logged in to check recently, guess what, you've, you've seen some of the benefits of compounding.

[Matt]

Yeah.

[Joel]

And people who, especially these markets at

[Matt]

all time highs, hopefully folks aren't getting too carried away with maybe what their retirement balances are looking like. But yeah, what you're essentially talking about here is the opportunity cost of financing a car. And actually we got a story on that Kiplinger. They ran the numbers and this author found that you're going to save over $700 a month. So that's $8,600 annually by holding onto your car for longer. And you can figure out the true opportunity cost by finding out what would happen to that money if you were to have invested it. And he ran the numbers and over the past five years you would have gained over 9,000 additional dollars by investing the money that you would have saved had you spent that money instead on a fancier car. That's in addition to the 43, $43,000 of savings from not having purchased that car over those five years. And so it's just so incredibly easy to minimize the financial downsides of a new car purchase. Right. You're thinking, oh, I need a car. I need something dependable, reliable, that I can get to work, that I can just truly count on. But just think about what you're giving up, which is the investing upside. And coming with that is that financial freedom as well. And also we just, we blow out of proportion the hassle of getting your car repaired. Right. Because it's just this interruption to your life when in reality it's not that bad. Is it worth, you know, nine plus? Is it worth $52,000 at the end of five years? I don't think so.

[Joel]

Especially when you go to the guy you go to because he has a free loaner car that you get to use.

[Matt]

And you know What? I am 100%. He's also a little bit more expensive than some of the other places. But what he's able to do there is completely eliminate any issue of me having my life interrupted. Like we're still a one car family. And so having that Car having reliable transportation is crucial. So the ability to drop off the van. And by the way, we're at, like, 205,000 miles. Just. Just a quick little update there for folks. And to hop in a vehicle that he's already got right there waiting on me, it's wonderful.

[Joel]

He also brings, like, a lot of data. He's like, hey, here's all the stuff going on with your car, and here's what you got coming up. Here's what needs to be done six months from now. Here's what needs to be done two years from now. It's kind of nice because he's projecting out.

[Matt]

I think for some people, it can be overwhelming because you're just like, oh, my gosh, there's like, 15 different things here that need to be fixed. But actually, no, like, there's a couple things that are a higher priority, and then you can start thinking about it. Like, I knew that he's good about

[Joel]

saying when and likely, like, how much and how far off so that you can. He's not sugarcoating head.

[Matt]

Exactly. Yeah, he's not sugarcoating it.

[Joel]

Where some people, some mechanics are just, like, all these are problems with your car. You need to fix it. And, like, they're just not as good about helping you outline when.

[Matt]

And then you're like, well, I guess I just told him my car somehow. They're like, we'll buy it from you.

[Joel]

Yeah, yeah, exactly. Well, okay. And going back to that piece of like, can you afford it? Some people like, yes, you can afford it in your current budget. But again, what do you lose out on in the process? And if you were to continue that investing habit, Matt, let's say, for 20 years longer, you'd have even more, of course, because you have more time for that savings to compound. You'd have $246,000 more if you were to just take stock market average returns. We can't overstate the impact that minimizing your car expenses has on your finances. Let's say you took that route and you put your money in Voo, which is Vanguard's S&P 500 index fund, which is one of our favorites. Not only would you be smart, you'd be a lot richer. You'd be minimizing fees. You'd be allowing more money to compound on your behalf. You also wouldn't be alone, because as VOO has become this, like, behemoth fund, Matt, I just read this week it's amassed $900 billion in assets.

[Matt]

Woohoo.

[Joel]

I should say.

[Matt]

Woo.

[Joel]

Hoo. And when you think about it like, that's pretty dang close to a trillion dollars. That's amazing in assets. That means depending on stock market performance, we could be there within months.

[Matt]

Bring it.

[Joel]

Which is insane. Could reset by the end of the year. I wouldn't be surprised. It's just I love seeing kind of the low cost, top notch funds that we would recommend people invest in, getting all the love and getting a lot of consumer dollars shoved into them because that's ultimately, that's a great fund for building long term wealth in.

[Matt]

That's right. Joel, you teased two recycled rags at the beginning of the episode. Let's get to Business Insider. Because they had that interesting article about essentially what they called the professionalization of secondhand shopping. So resellers are hitting up, obviously the different thrift stores out there. They're hitting up goodwill in an attempt to resell the stuff on a range of different sites out there from, you know, your local Facebook marketplace to Makari to ebay to Depop is another one. Evidently. I've never.

[Joel]

The kids like these sites, Matt. Depop. I think the Depops is for the youngsters. Maybe not.

[Matt]

We haven't perused over there yet, but some are even gaining a following. Their live streaming sales on a daily basis. Right. Like, it's sort of like a treasure hunt style. It's almost like their own, their own television show, which I can. There's a certain part of that that I completely hate. Right. Like the social media.

[Joel]

Yeah.

[Matt]

Live streaming, everything. But I also kind of appreciate the. There's some accountability there. And if you're not finding anything, I don't know, just. There's also an element where it's just making you work harder.

[Joel]

It's funny, when I read that, I was like, I didn't, I didn't realize that was still a thing because my, my older sister actually worked for one of these live stream Facebook companies. It was called Open an Oyster and like, it was mostly targeted towards women. And women across the Southeast or maybe across the country were like buying these. They didn't know what they were getting, but they were like paying ahead of time for these oysters. And then when it opened, it was like, this one's yours, Susie. And they'd mail it out or whatever. It's. Yeah, but that was like a live streaming Facebook moment where people are building businesses around that.

[Matt]

It's fascinating and I guess it's still happening somehow. Yeah, I mean, it's a lot of work, obviously, for folks out there. Like, it's a I'm not going to knock these professionals, right. Like they're out there, they're working hard to find the good stuff. They're curating an online or even an actual physical store to sell those items. I think some folks see it as like, well man, you're kind of ruining it for the rest of us. But at the same time I appreciate the folks who are putting in the work. They're creating essentially like a full time job out of this. And if you kind of roll back the clock, this is essentially what antique dealers have been doing forever.

[Joel]

Right.

[Matt]

Like this isn't something that's necessarily new. Like yes, pickers. Yes, exactly. Like you could go to the yard sales and to the old farms that are being, I don't know, estate sale or whatever on your own and you might find something or you can go to this amazing antique store and find all the goods there. But.

[Joel]

And you could learn how to refinish stuff yourself or learn how to sew and patch goods and how to make a good listing.

[Matt]

Yeah. And that's just know though that the Pickens might be a bit slimmer if you as an individual try to get out there. But yeah, like I think there's room for both, for both folks out there for folks who are making this more of a side gig. I was talking to a buddy and turns out his gosh, I think it was his father in law who has retired and he's a woodworker and he's really good with tools and specifically he goes to old estate sales, yard sales and he finds these old woodworking tools specifically. And it looks like.

[Joel]

Look like torture instruments.

[Matt]

Yeah, probably. But like old planers and just amazing, like high quality. I don't know, in my mind it's like oh, maybe it's like a German instrument, you know, like. Like a really high quality item but totally tarnished, rusted out. He knows how to finish them over and creates these amazing show worthy, beautiful items that he then sells on the side which is he used to be a doctor and now he's doing this and he is finding a whole lot of joy in doing something like that. Which makes me super happy to hear about it.

[Joel]

There's always a place for humans to rehab things and to turn them into something that is that a lot of people want. Right. And are willing to pay money for. And there's. I was, my dad was over at the house last night and I was like oh, sweet new flip flops dad. He's like oh, got him at the thrift store And I was like, really?

[Matt]

Yeah.

[Joel]

He's like, yeah, but new. They were like six bucks or something, but. Because I don't know. How do you feel about buying used flip flops? You want the toe, you want someone else's toe jam?

[Matt]

It depends what kind of flip flop. If it's like a pair of, what is it? Rainbows. Like the leather.

[Joel]

Yeah.

[Matt]

There's more room for germs disease. Yeah. Personality to find its way into the crevices. Whereas like a pair of Adidas slides. Come on.

[Joel]

Yeah, Just blast those suckers.

[Matt]

They're good to go.

[Joel]

Okay, good to know. And Matt, you and I, we're old enough to have seen fashion fads change significantly. It's really actually interesting to see how items that in our era were heralded as cool. They got relegated to the Goodwill shelves only to become cool again. Right. Like some of the stuff that was cool when we were in high school, early college is cool again. And it's. Man, I just never thought I would, would have seen the day. I don't know if like JNCOs are back, but at least like the wide leg jeans are back.

[Matt]

And so it's like, man, the fuller, fuller bodied pant. Yes.

[Joel]

That was my jam and now it's. But I got rid of all that stuff. And so there was. There's actually. It's not a hunch or a hope as to whether styles are going to resurge. Apparently Northwestern crunched the data. They said that 20 years is the average time it takes for something lame to become cool again. So you can either like, I guess, choose to care less about style to save money, or you can save your skinny jeans. Because guess what? Skinny jeans will be back in 15 years, folks. Because what was it a few years ago? They fell off the map, actually.

[Matt]

So this aligns perfectly with my. I think about towards the end of school, like, I'm thinking about my Abercrombie and Fitch bootcut jeans that I was wearing back in the day.

[Joel]

I was thinking I was wearing the Gap one.

[Matt]

That was about 20 years ago. So yeah, man, should have, should have held onto them as opposed to going with the skinny slash straight leg jeans.

[Joel]

Isn't that fascinating?

[Matt]

Did you. Gosh, before I was like paying real money and getting my own jeans with my, like in college, in high school, it's just like you're wearing whatever your parents get for you essentially, or what your mom's willing to buy you. Did you ever cut slits in the side of the jeans?

[Joel]

Oh, for sure. Okay.

[Matt]

In order to make like the Fake flare.

[Joel]

Most def. Yeah. Yeah.

[Matt]

Okay. Do kids do that today?

[Joel]

I don't think so.

[Matt]

They should.

[Joel]

They should.

[Matt]

If you were just to go over

[Joel]

my Birkenstock clogs is how I. Yeah, that's true.

[Matt]

What was I wearing?

[Joel]

Burstock clogs were hot.

[Matt]

I was wearing the old man gray New Balances at that point.

[Joel]

Okay. Yeah, those are cool too.

[Matt]

That was kind of like the. Again. Are they cool again? I'm sure it was 20 years after that. They had first been introduced when I was first wearing them back then. And they're probably gonna find their way back around again.

[Joel]

Yeah. And I think maybe when you reach our age, like, you know, you're in your. In your early 40s, you just, you just kind of care less about the fashions. I kind of. I care about what I wear. I just don't care about it being generally culturally acceptable and cool. I just wear what I like.

[Matt]

That is an argument for a bigger closet because if you can just store away some of the less fashionable items. See, that's the difference between fashion and style though. And what we're talking about here is fashion. Things going in and out of fashion. But like, if you have a certain style, then you can just ride that into the sunset. Yeah, and that's why. That's true. That's why I'm one of swagger and confidence. Yeah. But like for instance, quote unquote, skinny jeans. I'm not, you know, these suckers aren't like skin tight or anything, but when I wear jeans now, I wear them because they fit. And things that fit you properly, whether it's a shirt or pants, I don't think that's ever going to go out of style.

[Joel]

Yeah.

[Matt]

Personally.

[Joel]

All right, I'm with you. And real quick, let's.

[Matt]

That's my take.

[Joel]

Let's talk about shipping for just a second.

[Matt]

Okay.

[Joel]

We're seeing more retailers push us toward longer shipping timelines. I don't know if you've noticed that, Matt. Upon checkout, we. We've kind of all gotten used to free shipping at this point and free fast shipping. But this is obviously and clearly a big expense for online retailers and I'm curious to see actually if shipping prices will decline. I was shipping out some how to money socks just yesterday and I was shocked at how much it cost to ship a pair of socks just across the eastern seaboard.

[Matt]

Now USPS prices are going up 8

[Joel]

plus dollars to ship one pair of socks. So be thankful to your listeners when the socks coming away. And actually Amazon has just Revealed Joel

[Matt]

over here washing his pennies.

[Joel]

That's right. Amazon revealed that they're gonna to partake in the kind of shipping supply chain other companies that they have built out, which makes so much sense, like they built it out for themselves and now they're going to make money on it by allowing shipping other people's stuff. But you know, some companies are offering free or cheap shipping if you're willing to wait, but sometimes you have to wait for weeks. Amazon is offering like a, I think a 7% discount if you'll opt for a later arrival date oftentimes. Nice. So, I mean, it just means planning or ordering ahead and patients will save money.

[Matt]

It's all about the planners. I think those are the folks who are going to say the most.

[Joel]

And the same is true if you don't want to pay for Amazon prime or Walmart plus or any of those quick shipping options. If you just kind of plan ahead, like, oh, I got the birthday party for my son's friend two weeks from now. I'll buy the Lego set today, right. And just opt for the slow free shipping option instead of feeling like I've either got to run out the store and grab it last minute or, you know, pony up and pay for the higher shipping fee.

[Matt]

Yeah, it comes down, it makes me. I mean, it's like that with a lot of things in life, right? The better we are at planning things out, I think the better we can get together. Like essentially a game plan to where we can afford to take advantage of, for instance, longer ship times as opposed to flying by the seat of your pants where a lot of times you

[Joel]

are going to have to.

[Matt]

Yeah, pony up. Although that being said, I'm not here to say that one is more important than the other because it takes both. Right? Like if you are so planned, structured that you don't have the ability to take advantage of deals, perhaps like a free money.

[Joel]

Like a free money jump on it.

[Matt]

Then you're missing out, right? As opposed to if you're so locked in and you're like, no. We as a family deliberate at the beginning of every year what our plans are going to be for this year. And then I'm going to wait until 2027 and we shall purchase a bunny. Well, you're missing out on the free bunny, right? So there's. You got to have a little bit of both.

[Joel]

I don't know if you're missing out,

[Matt]

but I'm just telling folks, I don't. I'm not trying to demonize folks who are more Shooting from the hip players like you are my friend, which I am. You got to have a little more. You got to have that structure. But then you also have to have enough flexibility to take advantage of deals.

[Joel]

Yeah.

[Matt]

When they are presented to you. Joel, we've got more to get to today. It's been a minute since we've talked about high fuel prices, so we'll talk about that. We'll talk about airlines, all that and more right after this.

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[Joel]

road this summer and we're going to travel slow. We're going to take the scenic route. I'm a big fan of that slow stateside travel with my family. It just reminds me that we're building something worth protecting and life insurance is a part of that planning ahead process. So here's my suggestion. Get life insurance checked off your to do list in minutes with policygenius so you can make those memories while knowing your family is protected.

[Matt]

That's right. PolicyGenius is an online insurance marketplace that allows you to compare quotes from some of America's top insurers side by side for free. I love doing stuff for free. Joel. They also help you to find your most affordable policy that meets your needs. They're able to answer your questions, they handle the paperwork and they advocate for you throughout the entire process. This is what has earned Policygenius all those five star reviews.

[Joel]

With Policygenius you can see if you can find 20 year life insurance policies starting at just $276 a year for $1 million in coverage. Head to policygenius.com to compare life insurance quotes from top companies and see how much you could save. That's policygenius.com all right, we're back from the break and we will talk about high fuel prices, Matt. I feel like even in just the past few days, those have gone up significantly and we're in one of the cheapest states for gasoline, so can't imagine how people, especially on the west coast, are feeling right now. Let's get to the ludicrous headline of the week first, though. This one comes from the New York Times and the headline reads, can spending more improve your health and prolong your life?

[Matt]

Yes, says the guy who spent a lot of money on his home gym.

[Joel]

Yeah, I mean, I think like there's some. The truth that spending on certain things can, can be helpful, but that's not what they're highlighting.

[Matt]

That's not that article. They're talking about other ridiculous forms of spending.

[Joel]

And even still, let's be honest, you could do like a lot of body weight workouts and get by just fine. You don't need the Olympic barbells to. Yeah, you do. You.

[Matt]

No, you don't. But it's fun.

[Joel]

But it's fun.

[Matt]

Exactly.

[Joel]

And it's worth spending on the fun. But there's obviously this like cultural obsession right now with living longer. There was Peter Attia's book. I know he's kind of become at least semi disgraced, I think, I don't know. But his, his book was outlive. That's kind of part of this movement. And, and just his, his podcast and that stuff that has had a big reach. Brian Johnson, he's throwing a lot of money into the not dying movement. Doing some borderline weird stuff as part of.

[Matt]

Very weird stuff.

[Joel]

Very weird stuff.

[Matt]

When you're getting blood transfusions from your son. Yeah, that's weird, man.

[Joel]

It's weird.

[Matt]

That's really weird. And then when you are giving blood transfusions to your father, that's really weird. That's not borderline. You've full on drunk the Kool Aid, which is what. That totally feels like a cult.

[Joel]

And those things make the headlines. And there are some weird things. But then there are also some really good ideas in this longevity space as well. Right? Some of which you've taken to, you've appreciated, you've integrated into your life. And it's a good idea to use your body regularly. Right. And to not eat like a trash panda. Like, if you can kind of do those two things, you're making a lot of progress. But this article highlights the growth of supplements and services that are designed to help you live longer. And again, they're not all bad. It's not like you should never take a supplement in Your life or you should never pay for a service to help you live in a healthy way. But it can also quickly become an expensive endeavor. It's become an industry. Right. And just like other areas of our lives, I think it's easy to think that spending more is the answer. That if I just, like, spend more money in this space, then I'm going to feel the benefits, I'm going to feel better, I'm going to look better, I'm going to live longer. But again, kind of getting back to what I was just saying about how body weight exercises would get you most of the way you want to go. It doesn't really have to cost that much. Just solid sleep, regular exercise, like drinking less, a healthy diet, regular hangs with good friends. Right. All of those things, I think will outperform shelling more money on expensive supplements or services. But yet there's like an industry and a marketing machine that's been spun up to try to convince you otherwise.

[Matt]

Yeah. And a lot of these kind of expenses seem relatively light to me. Right. Like supplements. It's like, okay, yeah, someone tries out some supplements for a couple months and they're like, okay, I didn't see any difference. So I'm just gonna kick this to the curb. Some folks are taking it to the next level, though.

[Joel]

And one of my buddy just does like four different powders every morning that he mixes up and drinks. Oh, yeah.

[Matt]

I mean, I do that with like a. With like my protein shake. So.

[Joel]

No, no, but he's like, you know, the expensive, expensive powders like, of.

[Matt]

Oh, he's not getting the elevation way from Aldi because that's what I do.

[Joel]

I don't think he is. I don't think he is.

[Matt]

17 bucks vanilla. It's really good.

[Joel]

No, he's getting expensive.

[Matt]

Okay, yes, those might be expensive, but it's not $25,000 a year expensive. True. Which is what it costs for some of these, like, concierge doctors who specifically specialize in longevity. Which honestly, how much some of these folks spend like that doesn't. Honestly, doesn't really surprise me all that much. And so I'm not saying that these expensive options aren't going to be beneficial at all. It's just that Americans have certainly a tendency to spend money for the quick fix rather than making far less expensive lifestyle changes. But of course, going to be more difficult to implement. There's another article in the Times that was talking about the financial reality of outliving your money if we don't die. Right. Or if we live A lot longer than maybe we were expecting or longer than average. How do we save for a much longer retirement?

[Joel]

Well, if we don't die, that is a different proposition, isn't it?

[Matt]

But there are financial products out there that exist to do just that. Social Security and specifically delaying when you take it, that's one. Annuities where you are turning a lump sum into a monthly check, that's another way to plan. But the costs are very high to get that kind of certainty. Deferred income annuities are often seen as sort of like a longevity insurance. And it's actually. I'm thinking about you talking about the supplements. It's analogous to that, right. Where it's like you've got these really complex, overly complex, some would argue, products that are very, very expensive and they might get you some of the results as opposed to some of the more basic things that you can do. Right. And so instead of looking to some of these complex products, like a. Like an annuity, how about you just continue to invest in the S&P 500 with incredibly low expenses? The thing that you're avoiding doing because you're afraid of, like, the worst case scenario is actually the thing that's going to get you further on down the road instead of shooting yourself in the foot and tying up your funds with something like some of these overly complex financial products. So this is just another way that we love the shiny, specific tool that's going to address the problem that we perceive to be the biggest problem when we could just completely sidestep. It's like the bullet charging. You just like swoop. You got the red cape out and it's like Toro. And all of a sudden that problem is behind you.

[Joel]

Yeah, well, you mentioned that the goal is not to die, and I don't even know that is the goal.

[Matt]

I think that's the goal of like, the longevity.

[Joel]

Yeah.

[Matt]

Or.

[Joel]

And even most people, I would say, are not as bold enough to state that it is like, really just that Brian Johnson dude who's. Yeah, yeah, that's his thing is like, no, no, it's. The goal is to not die. And I'm like, good luck with that.

[Matt]

It's a literal goal for him. And for. I think there's other people who have adopted the sort of mantra of like, don't die, like, just as a way of living. Of like, get out there, have fun.

[Joel]

But if you mean it, like, don't take undue risks.

[Matt]

Yeah, yeah.

[Joel]

But I'm not. I'm not trying to, like, for real, live forever.

[Matt]

No.

[Joel]

All right.

[Matt]

Not possible.

[Joel]

Right? All right, let's talk about babies. Matt. The. Another fascinating article this week was about couples who are deciding against having babies because of the expense. And this is obviously like a personal choice, but that personal choice is not helping our demographic problem. I will, I will just say that right now makes you think of my conversation with Melissa Kearney, which is well worth listening to if you haven't listened to that episode. She has just some brilliant thoughts about kind of where things are headed in this country as we have fewer babies. But I still, I get it, Matt. Like, children are not cheap. And some people have suggested that having, like, four kids is the new status symbol. If that's true, you're a man of status, sir, because you have four kids.

[Matt]

Yeah, boy.

[Joel]

Congratulations.

[Matt]

Thank you very much.

[Joel]

If you have a couple more people think you're like a king or something like that.

[Matt]

King or crazy.

[Joel]

And young people are blaming higher prices, especially housing, as a reason to forego that dream, on the surface level at least, and on a societal level. I think this is something we should talk about more. But one of the things that stuck out to me in this article was the desire that a lot of these, these young folks who are just giving up on the idea of having kids. What they said was, I don't want to give up on expensive travel. I don't want to give up on hobbies like golf. If I have a kid, guess what? I probably can't play golf on all day on Saturday. It's going to be harder to go on this dope trip to Iceland if I have kids. And yeah, duh, it will be like your hobbies go by the wayside for a while. When you have young kids, that is a sacrifice you make in order to go in that direction. But that's a choice. And so some couples highlighted in the article talked about 2,000 square feet being too small to bring a baby into their home. That's hogwash.

[Matt]

They don't take that much space.

[Joel]

No, that's a ridiculous assertion. Babies really don't take much space at all. And I get it. If someone says, I'd rather travel and play golf than have kids, you do. You. But having kids, of course, will mess with your freedom. But it's also, I want to just say it's quite possible to have a family without breaking the bank in 2026. I think it's been embellished too much about how expensive it is to have children. There is some truth to that. But you also, guess what, when you stop golfing, and traveling internationally, you can afford to have that baby.

[Matt]

That's right, yeah. This shouldn't have been an article about the high cost of babies and instead, essentially it's an article about trade offs. And I think a lot of young Americans unwillingness to admit that these are trade offs that they are actively or even passively making by the fact that they're just ignoring it. Morningstar, they just published a piece about how financial literacy could actually cushion the financial blow of having a kid, specifically in the case of an unplanned pregnancy. But just having some solid, meaningful personal finance knowledge under your belt, it just helps individuals to ramp up their liquidity. It allows them to save up a big emergency fund. Right. Going back to what we're talking about, taking advantage of discounts when you're buying stuff online where you're planning ahead, when you have this knowledge, you can plan ahead. Well, when it comes to your money, you can plan in advance of your goals, including saving up to increase their home size if need be, because you want to have more kids. So again, babies are not cheap.

[Joel]

Right.

[Matt]

It costs additional money to feed, clothe, take care of a baby into their adulthood. But if it is a top notch goal, yeah, having some, some personal finance knowledge on hand is going to be pretty important to you, getting and achieving that goal. That's why we, that's what we talk about here on the podcast. And I said if it is a top notch goal, I. You just briefly touched on it from like a society level, Joel. At the beginning. But that's really important to our country.

[Joel]

Yeah.

[Matt]

Like the next generation. And unfortunately we have human species in general.

[Joel]

Yes, beyond the borders of the United States of America.

[Matt]

But like other countries have different priorities and I totally get that. But like even within our own borders, like even within our own country, like America is pretty dang fabulous. Are we perfect? Do we have our flaws? Absolutely. But if you can point to another country that's freer, that gives people more options, that is more creative, that is more innovative, that is more artistic, that is more diverse. Tell me. Yeah, because I want to live there. But the fact is there, there is not another country. And when you have a society that we do, that is putting more and more focus on. This is such a trad, traditional rant that I'm going on right here. But when you have a society that's you're trading, putting less value on that, man. Like those are the things, like the people in our country are a part of what make it great. And when you have a declining population you are essentially creating an artificial sunset where you're saying at some point off in the future, we're not going to be as awesome as we are. And you're essentially willingly accepting that because you're saying, well, we're not going to create the future innovators, the future artists, the folks who are going to bring about change in our society that has gotten us to where we are now. This isn't even a traditionalist like faith argument or even a philosophical argument. This is like completely practical economics.

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[Matt]

Which you know. And we're not making the other arguments because sometimes folks come down on different sides of that debate. But when you are looking at the numbers, you can't deny that.

[Joel]

But then you also can't say that means, hey, you, Jim and Susie need to have four kids to do what's right for this country. And I get why some people say, man, I don't know if I want to bring a kid into this world. And we've also kind of raised a generation of young people who are, I'm

[Matt]

not looking to force anybody to have babies if they don't want to. But what I'm trying to do is emphasize the goodness and the self sacrifice and how that actually brings about even more goodness not only in our society, but for us as individuals to put other people and other principles ahead of our own pleasure and travel and hobbies.

[Joel]

I think what you're getting at is like, would we be richer if we hadn't had kids? Yeah. Monetary. From a money perspective, we would have more money.

[Matt]

Right.

[Joel]

We would not be.

[Matt]

Possibly. Or maybe I wouldn't have had the gumption or the fire lit under me to say, hey, I got to figure out, you know, the next business I want to start.

[Joel]

You know, when you have people that depend on you, it kind of does light a fire under you in some ways.

[Matt]

But I see what you're saying.

[Joel]

Yes.

[Matt]

Like if had I not spent tens of thousands of dollars, even just on labor and delivery of our fortune. Yeah. Being a self employed person, well, I'd

[Joel]

have more free time to do the things that I'm interested in doing. But guess what? I really like to do what my kids are interested in doing too. And it's a lot of fun. And so I do think, like we undersell the joys of parenting.

[Matt]

It is so life giving.

[Joel]

We talk about the hardships and we very rarely talk about how, how enjoyable and life giving and how creating like a cohesive family unit is like, it's awesome. Like it's the best. And there's almost no better undertaking in this world.

[Matt]

Completely agree, man.

[Joel]

All right.

[Matt]

Yeah. You're not going to hear us on the show complaining about our kids and like, oh, another day of having to take the kids, complain about them sometimes.

[Joel]

Sometimes they annoy. Like there's, there's annoying part as far

[Matt]

as just like that ongoing trip. It's like people who show up at work and they're just like, it's another Monday. It's just like, okay, like, if that's actually how you feel about your job, maybe you shouldn't be working. Maybe you should try to find something else that's lighting you up.

[Joel]

Yeah.

[Matt]

So that's, I'm just trying to combat that sort of narrative is all.

[Joel]

Let's, let's move on. Let's talk about vehicles for EVs and gas prices in general. Because if you had asked me, Matt, whether EV sales would be up, flat or down this year, I'm pretty sure I would have predicted down. Right. I'm guessing you would have been in the same camp.

[Matt]

Yeah.

[Joel]

Okay.

[Matt]

I mean, we saw them. We saw the immediate takedown after the federal rebate incentives were taken away. Was that September last? Last fall.

[Joel]

Yeah. And so when you take away $7,500, $7,500 discount, or even the discount from buying a used EV as well, you're assuming the sales are going to fall off a cliff. And they did for just a second. But higher gas prices have made the EV market more interesting, leading to a resurgence in sales. And so going out and buying a brand new electric vehicle for let's say, 45, $50,000, it's not always the best solution to higher gas prices. It doesn't make sense for everyone or even probably for most people. Yeah.

[Matt]

That's when I remember my mom being like, I spent $120 and look at how much I saved.

[Joel]

Yeah.

[Matt]

It's like, well, I know you got it on sale, but you didn't actually save money because you spent those dollars.

[Joel]

That's right. And something like 45% of Americans say they've changed their driving it since gas prices have gone up, they're using their car less.

[Matt]

There you go.

[Joel]

I'm in favor of that. Or they're cutting back in other monthly spending. And some people, Matt, that's just like, I have to. Right. Like, gas prices hit the folks who are least well off in our society the most the hardest. And they have to make these changes. And we're not sure, obviously, how long gas prices will remain elevated. That's a geopolitical reality that we don't know when this thing's going to end. And honestly the gas prices could go higher in the coming months depending on what happens. So just know that I love the idea of changing habits and it's really interesting to see that people are more attracted to EVs. But I don't know, maybe the used EV market, even with like cars that have a limited range are going to be the best bang for your buck. Like you might find that those actually could save you money from, you know, over the next two to three years versus going out there and buying a brand new one.

[Matt]

Yeah, I'm sure folks who had their knees on Leaf for sale with no bites, maybe they're seeing a few more in their inbox on that. Well, higher fuel prices may have been the final nail in the coffin that took down our beloved Spirit Airlines. Joel, we've been talking about Spirit for a while now, how it wasn't looking so great for them and we said that we'd keep folks posted. Well, all Spirit flights were canceled, leaving a ton of folks stranded. I think this was last, was it last Friday night, Friday after the Friday flight went out, about 17,000 folks lost their jobs. And in hindsight, looking back to 2024 when the government struck down the merger between Spirit and JetBlue, I think that actually would have been a good thing. Where again in hindsight, but if they had their ability to, with our powers combined, low cost airlines shall continue to be a thing. And that didn't happen. At the same time though, maybe there's a middle path we could have walked. Right. Because I'm also glad that the government didn't bail Spirit out where there because there was talk about that last week. We actually almost had that story on but we kind of cut it at the last minute because they were going

[Joel]

to take like a 90% stake in

[Matt]

Spirit and I'm not interested in the government doing that right where the government's taking on the risk and they are forcing that risk upon taxpayers. I don't think that that's the solution either because creative destruction is a meaningful part of the free market system to see different companies and industries innovate. And so if you have upcoming travel booked on Spirit, you're going to get a refund and you're going to have to rebook with another airline if you booked with rewards at this point, Spirit hasn't figured that out yet. And even if you don't fly Spirit, even if you're just like good riddance, you're going to Miss them because they help to drive down prices with the other airlines. What is it the basic economy that all the different airlines rolled out was because of these low cost airlines. And not having them in the mix is going to be a loss for consumers everywhere. All the folks out there who are flying, you can look at the data

[Joel]

and when Spirit competes with some of the bigger airlines on routes when they used to compete, the prices went down. Right. Because Delta couldn't charge $400 for a flight. The Spirit was charging 150 for just, they just couldn't and they had to bring their prices down.

[Matt]

You got to have options for folks

[Joel]

and Spirit was at least an option. And now that that's going away and

[Matt]

that's what I hate, I hate that it's no longer an option for folks. But the fact is the market did not reward budget travel. Folks would say that like, oh well, I want a cheaper. But I mean if folks aren't voting with their actual dollars, then you're saying one thing and you're doing another one.

[Joel]

Frontier says they're hoping to pick up some of the slack and get some of those low cost customers. I'm sure they, I don't know, at least they're sticking around. JetBlue still around. But like, yeah man, the more the merrier in that low cost and but Matt, Spirit might not be fully dead. Share it with folks. Okay, so it's highly unlikely share the good word that Spirit will be back. But this one guy, Hunter Peterson has been rallying the troops. We got an email about this from a listener this week as well. He's like, you got to talk about this. And they're trying to raise money to purchase Spirit via crowdfunding. They've raised over $100 million so far or they've.

[Matt]

Over 100 million has been pledged.

[Joel]

Yes. No one has actually.

[Matt]

Including $45 from one how to money

[Joel]

co host, Bottle Mix. Yes, there you go.

[Matt]

I'm all about it, man.

[Joel]

There you go.

[Matt]

If it can allow. I just want there to be options for folks. And again, if I'm going to put my money where my mouth is, gotta be willing to be a small owner of Spirit Airlines. Yeah, you can't give up the Spirit.

[Joel]

We'll link to that crowdfunding website in the show notes. But it's just, it's, it's one of those cool things where there have been examples of employee owned like breweries and stuff. Matt and I, I just, I love that, that model different co op like rei.

[Matt]

REI is a co op.

[Joel]

Yeah.

[Matt]

Technically owned by its customers. Right? Yeah. So the URL is let's buy Spirit Air. And so we'll link to that in the show notes. But if you wanted to search that yourself because you, too, are excited about Spirit remaining here in the land of the living, then be sure to check it out.

[Joel]

I wish them the best of luck.

[Matt]

Yeah.

[Joel]

All right. That's gonna do it for this episode, by the way.

[Matt]

I want to just end with. By saying that I know having kids isn't for everybody. Family formation and having kids. There are some people who are just like, no, I'm not. I'm not ever gonna do that.

[Joel]

Hey, neither is having rabbits.

[Matt]

And I.

[Joel]

But I'm doing it okay.

[Matt]

And I totally.

[Joel]

For the team here, man.

[Matt]

Totally hear it. Hear where you're coming from. And I know that it's not for everybody, but for folks who are on the fence in particular, and they're using the finances, the money aspect of it as an excuse, I think you got to think about it from, like, a higher level. You got to zoom out a little bit, look at the bigger picture.

[Joel]

There are a lot of other hardships that having kids presents, too. Right. In terms of, like, just physical ability

[Matt]

to have some folks who literally can't have kids. And I totally get that. Yep. But, yeah, just I wanted to end on that note.

[Joel]

Money makes it impossible. That's not true. All right. At least for most people in this country. All right, that's gonna do it for this episode. Until next time, buddy. Best friends out.

[Matt]

Best friends out.

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[Matt]

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[Joel]

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[Joel]

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[Joel]

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[Joel]

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[Matt]

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[Joel]

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