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- [00:00]
Joel
This episode is brought to you by Navy Federal Credit Union. They can help you dominate Debt with a 0% intro APR on credit card balance transfers for 12 months and $250 when you spend $2,500 on a cash rewards or cash rewards plus card.
- [00:15]
Matt
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- [00:35]
Dr. Jordan Grummet
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- [01:07]
Matt
If you love your phone but not your carrier, just switch to T Mobile. You can keep your phone, keep your number and we'll help pay it off up to $800 per line. You can also use our savings calculator to compare our plans and streaming benefits against Verizon and AT&T. So switch and keep your phone, keep your number and keep more of your moolah. @t mobile.com up to four lines via.
- [01:28]
Dr. Jordan Grummet
Virtual prepaid card allow 15 days qualifying unlock device credit service poured in 90.
- [01:32]
Joel
Plus days with device and eligible carrier and timely redemption required.
- [01:35]
Dr. Jordan Grummet
Card has no cash access and expires in six months.
- [01:38]
Joel
Welcome to How To Money. I'm Joel.
- [01:40]
Matt
I'm Matt.
- [01:40]
Joel
And today we're talking fulfillment over fire with Dr. Jordan Grummet.
- [02:03]
Matt
Now, what does it mean to pursue joy and purpose in your life? Is this like some sort of eternal scavenger hunt where we're hoping to find something that is just out of reach, right, where it's just like it's just hidden behind the next corner? Or is it something that we're able to achieve because it's something that we've created? And I think our guest today would argue that it's more of the latter. We are joined by our friend Dr. Jordan Grummet to talk less about the what and the how behind personal finance and more about the why and how. Our money is one of the many tools that will allow us to achieve our individual sense of purpose. In his new book, the Purpose Code, it delves into these more amorphous topics in a way that allows readers to have a sense of clarity and understanding. Even a like a to do list, as Jordan prescribes different actions to take in his book. And so we're excited to talk about all of that and more. Jordan, AKA Doc G. Thank you so much for joining us today on the podcast, fellas.
- [03:01]
Dr. Jordan Grummet
Thank you so much for having me. I'm excited for this conversation.
- [03:04]
Joel
Yeah, us too, man. If you let me blurb your book, I would have said, if you like the Da Vinci Code, you'll love the Purpose Code. They're very similar, right?
- [03:12]
Dr. Jordan Grummet
A lot of overlap, of course. Of course. Exactly.
- [03:15]
Joel
Well, the first question we ask everyone who comes on and Jordan, you've been on the podcast before, but what do you like to splurge on? What's your craft beer equivalent? You're obviously smart with money investing, saving for your future, but you're splurging a little bit in the here and now, too, I'm assuming, right?
- [03:28]
Dr. Jordan Grummet
I am. And my daughter and I like to go to Barnes and Noble and buy lots of books. I know you can get them in the library. I know you can get them other places, but it's kind of fun to sometimes buy a new book, and she loves to do it, and I love to do it. I like reading crime novels. I like reading fantasy. I'm still a big Lord of the Rings fan, so. Yeah.
- [03:51]
Matt
Okay, quick.
- [03:52]
Dr. Jordan Grummet
It's worth spending money on.
- [03:53]
Matt
What do you think of the new series, Rings of Power? Specifically the second season, Jordan?
- [03:57]
Dr. Jordan Grummet
So I have only got to like the first episode of the second season, but I'm biased because I like the feel, so it doesn't even matter the plot line. I just like the kind of.
- [04:09]
Matt
The fact that you have been thrust into Tolkien's universe makes you happy.
- [04:12]
Joel
That's like. That's Mad Men for me. The feel is so delightful that I'm just like, I don't even care if it's.
- [04:16]
Matt
Joel just wants to kick back and smoke cigarettes and drink scotch while on the job.
- [04:20]
Joel
That's right.
- [04:21]
Dr. Jordan Grummet
I mean, they really make it.
- [04:22]
Joel
We're close.
- [04:23]
Dr. Jordan Grummet
They really make it look good. That drinking scotch in the middle of the day, like when you're waiting for clients to come. I mean, it's does look pretty cool.
- [04:29]
Matt
Never mind Cirrhosis of the liver.
- [04:32]
Dr. Jordan Grummet
It wasn't a thing back then.
- [04:34]
Matt
It didn't exist.
- [04:35]
Dr. Jordan Grummet
It didn't exist. It was.
- [04:36]
Matt
Jordan, let's talk about. So your last book was taking stock, and originally when we met you, we Knew you as a financial independence guy, but more and more it seems like you've been pivoting, talking a good bit more about meaning and more about purpose. So I guess what prompted you to pivot and go in that direction even more with your latest book?
- [04:56]
Dr. Jordan Grummet
It was actually my first book, Taking Stock, that led to writing the Purpose Code. And the reason why is a main premise of that first book is that we should put purpose, identity and connections before building a financial framework. So I was steeped in the financial independence movement. I was talking to people all the time about it and they could tell me how much or how, but a lot of times they couldn't tell me why or what enough looks like. And that's why I wrote that first book, Taking Stock. But the problem was when I went to market it and I go and do speeches and go to conferences, people would come up to me after my talks and they'd be kind of angry. And the first time this happened, I thought, well, it's a one off, no big deal. But it happened over and over again. And they'd all say the same thing. They'd say, look, you keep on telling me I need to find my purpose. I have no idea what my purpose is. It's making me really anxious. And in fact, I don't think there is a purpose. Stop telling me to find my purpose. And of course this sent me down a huge rabbit hole. I'm like, okay, I know purpose is super important, but I also know people get really anxious. And I looked at the data and when you go down there and you look at all the data, you find that having a sense of purpose in life is clearly associated with health, longevity and happiness. There are tons and tons of studies. On the other hand, there are other studies that show that up to 91% of people at some point in their life get purpose anxiety. This idea of purpose actually makes them frustrated or anxious. So the question is, how could it be both? It's a paradox. And that's why I wrote this book, to help resolve this paradox, Help you find more of that health, happiness and longevity and stay away from the anxiety.
- [06:32]
Joel
Yeah, that whole purpose thing, it feels like one of those things where you maybe some people from early on, they put their finger on it and they're living it out the rest of their lives. Then other people, I don't know, maybe their purpose morphs or changes and I don't know, I feel like I've lived many lives in one lifetime. I don't necessarily know that I have one overarching purpose. But I've had different ones over time. I think when we talk about purpose a lot of people assume that they're trying job or their career is supposed to be kind of that essential, that fulcrum of their purpose. But then that can, depending on what your job is too, can maybe leave a lot to be desired. What are your thoughts about how your career fits into your purpose and how people think about that?
- [07:15]
Dr. Jordan Grummet
Here's the problem. People think purpose is like this big thing that I either find it and life is good or I miss it and life is horrible. The truth of the matter is purpose is many different things. And you can have kind of these versions of purpose that take up your whole life and then they're versions of purpose you only have in smaller seasons, maybe for weeks or months. And so the idea is we want to fill up as much time as we can with these things that light us up. What I call little P purpose. This is process oriented activities that light us up and we want to get rid of as many things as we loathe. Now a lot of us have been programmed to believe that purpose has to be big and audacious. It has to be killing it at work or making lots of money or traveling or having six pack abs, whatever we were taught. But a lot of times we carry this with us and we build these careers thinking we're going to find some type of version of purpose that's going to make us happy. But because it's not internal, it's more external, what society tells us we want. A lot of times we find ourselves burnt out. So the goal is a lot of times we are in these jobs and they make us money and maybe it doesn't light us up, but how can we start bringing some things into that work time that feel purposeful? And so this happened to me. I was working as a doctor, I felt burnt out. I had kind of co opted my dad's version of purpose which was being a doctor. And he died when I was seven years old. I thought I could fix the world by becoming a doctor like him. And I co opted his version of purpose. But eventually I realized I didn't like the day to day activities and I started to burn out. But here was what was exciting. When I started really looking at my job, I realized I didn't like a lot of it. But there was one piece of it I did like which was being a hospice doctor. And I was doing that, let's say 5 or 10% of my time. When I figured this out now If I was stuck in a job and I needed the income and I had no other choices, I now had a way forward. I could increase the amount of time I was doing hospice and decrease the amount of time I was doing other things like my private practice. And so I think we don't necessarily have to quit our jobs when we realize that it's not our passion or that it doesn't feel purposeful. But the idea is, over time, how to build in a little more purpose into that job. And if you can't do that, build in a little more purpose into your life outside the job. Because we want over time to feel like the amount of purpose in our lives is increasing and the amount of things we don't like doing is decreasing. And that's kind of the goal over long periods of time.
- [09:38]
Matt
Yeah, that makes a lot of sense. It makes me think of. So Mike Rose, dirty jobs, right? Like, where you've got these people doing, like, God awful, disgusting, terrible jobs. Stinky, smelly stuff that most people. Yeah. Don't want to, like, do. Like, have anything to do with. Like, in those instances, it's not about, like, mind over matter, like, no matter what you are in those kind of scenarios. And so for those individuals, do you think it's about them changing their mindset and like, so they're not changing, like their actual physical environment or what it is that they're doing? Is it looking at the work that they're doing through a new lens? Or do you think in more cases it's them, like you said, finding some of that purpose outside of that actual job? I guess what I'm trying to drill down on is should folks be looking for maybe more of that purpose within their work? Or say, you know what, I'm actually not going to find that purpose here within this sort of framework of a 9 to 5 job. And instead I should be pouring my efforts into something else?
- [10:32]
Dr. Jordan Grummet
I think we should be doing both. And so what we're talking about here are levers. And so you have multiple levers that can bring more purposeful activity into your life and get rid of things you loathe. So when you're talking about adding in purposeful activity, you're talking about the joy of addition. And that's one really great lever. Even if you don't like your 9 to 5 on the nights and weekends, you can still in add in purposeful activity, and that can feel like a benefit. But then we can also use another lever called the art of subtraction, which is getting rid of things we don't like. And specifically, we can look at our work lives and see how we can shift things around. Right. Can we change bosses so we like our boss more? Even if we don't like the job? Can we change the activities we do in the workplace? So a great example I always use is, let's say you work in a restaurant and you hate working upfront, but you love doing the stock in the stock room. Well, maybe you need to go to your boss and say, hey, I want to spend more of my time in the stockroom and less time up front. You still have the same job. You still have parts of it that you don't love. But the idea is, over time, you're trying to maximize the things you like and get rid of the things you don't like. So we can use these levers. And I think both are important. So definitely add in purposeful activity to your life, whether that's at the job or off the job, and then subtract out the things you don't like, especially at work. See if you can make sure the time that you're required to be there. Because we all need a paycheck. But at least maybe you're enjoying it more.
- [11:57]
Joel
So you know the saying, the grass is always greener on the other side. And I think it's really easy for people to see maybe the negative or downsides where they're currently placed, whether it's. Man, I think social media makes the comparison game just so much more significant in our lives. And so it's really easy to see the things that we don't have or the ways in which our lives are inferior to others. How much of it is like Matt's kind of referring to the mindset thing? Well, maybe it seems like subtracting something would be the most beneficial thing to you, but then you subtract that thing, and you realize, actually, it's not as green as I thought it was. This grass is kind of yellow. I don't know. How do you think about that part of purpose, too? That maybe some of it is idealism and hopes for things that are maybe too lofty.
- [12:46]
Dr. Jordan Grummet
Here's the thing. I think part of the reason why purpose feels so difficult is we don't know how to search for it in our life. We don't know how to build or develop it. And so we go searching for purpose through other people. And, of course, if you're gonna search through purpose for purpose through other people, what are we gonna do? We're gonna look at the Internet, right? We're gonna look at TikTok, Instagram, we're gonna look at marketing which the focus of that campaign is to sell us something. And so if you look at TikTok or Instagram, everyone either has six pack abs or they have an eight figure business, or they're wearing the nicest clothes or they're traveling to the most beautiful countries. And so it's really easy for us to co opt a version of purpose that isn't ours from people who are trying to sell us something, whether it's their influence or whether it's their product. And so yes, I think it's very easy to think of the grass is greener on the other side, especially when we go after the wrong kind of purpose. Remember I mentioned this idea that there was a type of purpose that's more associated with anxiety and probably one that's more associated with health, longevity and happiness. Well, what I call those are big P purpose and little P purpose. Little P purpose is process oriented, meaning doing things that you love doing that light you up. It's very abundant and it's kind of individualized, right? I might like one thing that you don't like and you might like one thing that I don't like. When I was little I loved baseball cards. So a version of little P purpose for me is collecting baseball cards, trading them, buying them, maybe reading blogs about baseball cards or going to conferences. Like that's unique to me. There might be some other people who have that. But in general it's much more individualized. The kind of purpose most of us shoot for is what's called big P purpose. It's big and audacious. This gets back to the six pack abs and the eight figure businesses. The problem with that is usually that someone else's version of purpose that they're trying to sell to us. It usually doesn't light us up. And in fact, a lot of times to get to that big audacious purpose to be successful, we have to do things we don't enjoy the process of doing and it burns us out. And a lot of times we don't even reach it right because you gotta be the right person at the right time, saying the right things, having the right genetics and a bunch of luck to become, for instance, a billionaire. But if we look at TikTok and Instagram, that's what they're telling us to do. So of course we feel lost. Of course the grass doesn't feel greener on the other side because we're jumping from something we don't like. Like our job and trying to co opt someone else's version of purpose that they're trying to sell to us for nefarious reasons. And so I think we have to start searching deeper of what lights us up on the inside. What are those inklings or beckonings, I call them purpose anchors that basically get us excited and then we have to build a life of purpose around that. And this is where I think most of make our mistake.
- [15:22]
Matt
I love that. It's crazy how, like, you just highlighted how we can co opt not only the things that we consume, like the products that we buy, but how we can also lend that to what we should be doing with our lives. And the. Maybe I could even like, dictate the kind of charities that we're involved with and the things that we give our money to. But like, on one hand, I think that could be good though, because I think about the fact that there are a lot of products or organizations or movements that you may not even be aware of, and the fact that they're out there being broadcasted, people are talking about it on the Internet, it can open your eyes. And so there's. There is a sense of discovery there. I think what you're getting at though, is that if we do that without at all questioning whether or not that is moving the needle for us, that could, I don't know, leave us feeling pretty, pretty empty inside. But you're talking about the pursuing the things that light us up individually. Somewhere in your book you talked about how, like recalling some of our childhood interests, that's actually one of the steps that can actually lead you to some of that, I don't know, some of that more fulfilling purpose in our lives. Is that right?
- [16:23]
Dr. Jordan Grummet
So the problem comes down to a lot of people say, I don't know how to find my purpose. And as you've heard me say multiple times already, you don't really find it, you build or create it. But it is true. You need these inklings or these beckonings, what I call purpose anchors, to build a life of purpose around. And so what we're really talking about when we say, I can't find my purpose, you're saying, well, I don't really know what my purpose anchors are. And that's where we get into a deeper discussion of what are some of the exercises that anyone can do to start discovering these purpose anchors. The Joys of Childhood is a perfect example. Think back to what your childhood room looked like. What were the posters, what were the drawings, what were the trophies? A lot of times kids pursue purpose before they've been told who they're supposed to be. And a lot of times it's process oriented, person, purpose. Right. They want to go out and play tennis all day or cops and robbers or build a fort. And a lot of times it doesn't even matter if they accomplish their goal. They get so lost in it, they forget time and come home late for dinner. That's really purposeful. But then they get older and they get told what they have to do for a living and they get interested in academics and they kind of drop all that stuff. So if you're trying to figure out what are your purpose anchors to build a life of purpose around a great place to start is the joys of childhood. Again, going back to me. I loved baseball cards when I was little. I actually just don't have enough time. I have plenty of purpose anchors. But if I was searching to build some purposeful activity in my life, I could use that as a purpose anchor and start building a life of purpose around it. And I think we all can do that if we're in that searching phase where we feel like we don't really know it feels like purposeful in our life.
- [17:52]
Joel
So I guess my purpose is cookie crisp and cinnamon toast crunch. Jordan, if that's. What if we're going back to childhood?
- [17:57]
Dr. Jordan Grummet
Yeah.
- [17:57]
Matt
I thought it'd be more basketball related for you, Joel.
- [18:00]
Joel
That too. Shooting hoops. But I liked trashy cereal too. Jordan, you also talk about how, like, the circles that we run in the relationships that we have and how those have a massive impact on our purpose. I think that feels truer of me the older I get that the people I spend time with or that I'm closest to their purposes in good ways have rubbed off on me. Like, sometimes it's fun to hang out with people who like different things than I like, but occasionally I'll start to like one of the things that they like and it's kind of fun to have that overlap. What is. Yeah, how does that work? And how do we know whether we're maybe stealing somebody else's purpose that doesn't really resonate with us or if we're actually just adopting something in that we do enjoy or that, yeah, it does kind of light us up.
- [18:45]
Dr. Jordan Grummet
Well, here's the thing. That's pretty cool, right? Little P. Purpose is process oriented. It's abundant. And when you do these things, it lights you up. But here's what happens when you are lit up doing the thing that feels really intentional to you. It attracts other like minded people. So like a moth to a flame, other people are going to be connected, attracted to you and they're going to want to collaborate from you. Or if they don't know as much as you, they're going to want to learn from you. Or if they know more than you, they're going to want to teach you. But the same works for you when you go out into the world and see someone doing something that lights them up, yes, it's very attractive and especially if it's something that you like. So here's what happens. You interact with them, maybe you collaborate, maybe you try to learn from them. And then you have to assess, well, does that same thing light me up? And if the answer is yes, it lights me up. The process of doing this, not the riches these people have made, not the fame they have, but doing the activity they do, really lights you up, then it probably is a version of little P purpose and it was probably the reason you were attracted to them in the first place. And so I think that's all really, really positive. And as long as you're able to engage with this person, try on that identity that they have, if you decide you don't like that identity and you don't like those activities, it's fine to just walk away. You can still be their friend, but you're probably not going to engage with them on as deep of a level.
- [20:09]
Matt
You're also making me feel better about the fact that I changed my every single year in college, Jordan. The fact that I tried on these different identities by taking these classes and then quickly realizing that oh yeah, I guess I'm not going to be a science major pre med isn't what I'm here to do.
- [20:26]
Joel
It's also amazing that some of the things that we knee jerks say we don't like or we're not interested in, like my kids do with certain foods that we put in front of them, how they become an acquired taste and there are certain things that we might say that's not part of my purpose, that's not part of my how I find fulfillment in life. And then you try it on for a little bit and then you're like wait a second, I kind of dig this thing. And so I don't know, there's probably some purposeful purpose, experimentation that has to be done too, right?
- [20:52]
Dr. Jordan Grummet
So we call this the spaghetti method. So I mentioned the joys of childhood are a great way to figure out purpose anchors. There's some other ways I mentioned in the book but some people come to me and say none of that works. And so for the people who say nothing works, I say try the spaghetti method. Do things you don't normally do, hang out with people you don't normally hang out with. Do something maybe that's a little uncomfortable for you and do it for a day and see what happens. And if you find it resonates with you or you feel some joy doing it, that could be a great purpose anchor. And then the hard part comes, you have to build a life of purpose around it. Now again, we're high stakes people. So I say build a life of purpose. And you're all of a sudden having these big audacious ideas and plans of these crazy things you're gonna have to do. But it's not like that at all. If you go swimming with a friend and you hate swimming, or you thought you hated swimming, but you said yes to them, cause you tried the spaghetti method and you enjoyed it. Building a life of little P purpose might be once a week going and swimming and hanging out with the same people and going to happy hour after with them. And it could be as simple as that. That's the beginning of purpose and community and doing things that light you up, that connect you with other people. It doesn't have to be so big and crazy and all fulfilling. It can just be something simple you like doing. And you have room in your life for multiple purpose anchors. So one of those purpose anchors could be working as a researcher on cancer and trying to help the world. If you enjoy the process of doing that, regardless if you succeed or not, that could be a deeper enduring form of little P purpose for you. But you compare that with some of these seasonal or short term versions of little P purpose too, and they all can go together.
- [22:28]
Matt
What I love about what you just said is that it almost doesn't have a name to it. Like going back to the swimming example, I think somebody who started doing that, they would never have said, oh, this is going to be the beginning of this new purpose, this new little P purpose in my life for them. Like there's literally not even a label for it. It's almost like, oh, this is something I just. It's this dumb little thing I do on Tuesday at most where I go with my buddy. But then all of a sudden it turns into this other thing. And I guess what I want to ask you now is that it seems like that there needs to be a level of openness that someone needs to have in order to discover some of these different little P purposes. Do you see this being more difficult for folks maybe, who it's just part of their personality that they are actually less open? Like, do you see certain types of people being able to find their purpose more easily than others?
- [23:11]
Dr. Jordan Grummet
Look, I think everyone is open to happiness because I think that's what we're really talking about here is happiness doing the things that incite you and light you up and that you can build a happy life around. But I will also say that a lot of people have a litmus test for whatever activities they're going to do. And a big part of that litmus test is impact and legacy. So they will limit what they do because they think it's selfish or they think it's not changing the world. And so there is a certain amount of openness that you need to say, I'm just going to do this thing because I enjoy it. I'm going to let go of the goals. I'm going to let go of this kind of big, audacious plan and just do things that light you up. Now, that doesn't mean that it won't change the world. It just means that you stop using that as the driver and start using the driver of things that you really love.
- [23:58]
Joel
Yeah. All right, we've got more to get to with you, Jordan. And of course we got to talk about the intersection of money and purpose. We'll get to some discussion on that right after this.
- [24:13]
Matt
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- [24:43]
Joel
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- [25:14]
Matt
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- [25:41]
Joel
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- [26:03]
Matt
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- [27:00]
Joel
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- [27:40]
Matt
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- [28:19]
Dr. Jordan Grummet
I think we need both meaning and purpose to be happy. In fact, I say that both of them are a foundation, but they're very different things and most people don't realize this. Meaning is how we cognitively think about the past. It's the stories we tell ourselves about ourselves. And happy people tend to tell themselves heroic stories. They look at their past, they look at their trauma, they look whatever happened to them and they say I was enough and I made it through that. And so that's why I am where I am today and I'll probably continue to be enough in the present and future. Unhappy people tend to tell themselves a victim story. I wasn't enough all the way back then. These traumas happened to me. They thwarted me. I'm continuing to be thwarted today. And most likely it'll happen in the present and future too. They don't feel enough. Here's the difference between meaning and purpose. While meaning is about cognition in the past and is really a journey to enough, purpose is about the present and future. And it's all about actions. It's simply doing the things that light you up. Why is this important? It's important because there are a lot of people who actually don't have the greatest sense of meaning, tell themselves heroic stories and so they don't feel like they're enough. So the way to deal with that is to go back and rewrite those stories. But instead they think they can purpose their way to enough. What I mean is they're like, if I just do these big audacious things, it'll prove that I'm good enough and life will be good and I'll be happy and we know of course, that just doesn't work. If you question whether it works or not, look at someone like Steve Jobs. Before he died, he was one of the most successful guys ever. He had some of the most money than other entrepreneurs. He's very wealthy, and yet he never looked particularly happy. You could say the same thing about Elon Musk. They have all these wonderful things and achievements, but until they kind of go back and rewrite those stories of their childhood and deal with their traumas, they're going to continuously try to prove their enoughness by doing bigger and better and more audacious things, and it just doesn't work. You cannot purpose your way to enough. You can't purpose your way to happiness. You need both meaning and purpose to truly get there.
- [30:29]
Joel
Yeah, that's a good point. And I think, yeah, you're right. Sometimes people, especially of that ilk, think if I create the most successful technological product of all time, then I will have arrived. And the truth is there is no arriving. And if you're not kind of satisfied in your soul, in a deeper level, no amount of earthly success, I think, will give that to you. You obviously care a lot about money. You talk about personal finance. You're a personal finance nerd, I would say, a la Matt and I. But like, like, what's the intersection of money and purpose here? And how big of an influence should our income or our ability to make financial progress, how much influence should that have on kind of the purpose that we have for our lives?
- [31:12]
Dr. Jordan Grummet
Let's talk about two things, the intersection of money and purpose, and then the intersection of money and happiness, because I think the second one actually is the bigger story. So the intersection of money and purpose, in my opinion, is money is a great tool to pursue a life of purpose, but that is all it is. It gets a little more problematic when we talk about money and happiness. And we know like to get nerdy for a moment. There are tons of studies about money and happiness. Kahneman, Deaton, I think it was 2010, Matt Killingsworth, 2016. Both of them did studies about money and happiness. Kahneman and Deaton used data that was gathered for something else and retrospectively analyzed it. Killingsworth prospectively, meaning he started with his hypothesis and gathered data. But the kind of data he gathered was like texting people multiple times a day for a number of collecting their responses. And both of them tried to decide whether money was related to happiness. And they both came to the conclusion that at least up to a point, for sure, Kahneman and DEATON Talked about $70,000. Back in 2010, if you, you know, money increased happiness up to making about $70,000 a year. And then after it, it didn't have as much of an effect. Killings were said. Well, not exactly. There are some people who making more money does make them more happy, but maybe it's not to the same extent that the first 70,000 does. I want to compare those studies to the Harvard Adult Developmental Health Study, which I think is a bigger, more important study. One of the reasons I think it's bigger and more important is because it went on for 80 years. So it started back in the early 1900s. They grabbed Harvard students and started doing questionnaires every two years. Eventually, they brought in their family members. Eventually they then added in thousands of controls from the Boston area. They basically studied these people for 80 years. They started by doing questionnaires. Eventually they did blood tests, MRIs, EEGs. They looked at their income at various times in their life. And when they finished, their conclusion is there was one thing that was clearly and obviously positively correlated with happiness. And it wasn't money. It wasn't career. It wasn't achievements. Believe it or not, it wasn't even purpose. It was interpersonal connections. Interpersonal connections is what makes people happy. Now, you just heard me say it wasn't purpose. But what about all that data that show that purpose is associated with health, longevity, and happiness? Well, here's my belief. If you practice little P purpose, well, it becomes a conduit to building communities and connections. It's all interpersonal relationships. And I think the way we get there is little P purpose. I think that's that connection to happiness. Money is great. And if you are trying to build the life you want to live, having enough money, for instance, to pay someone to clean your house or to work four days a week instead of five, or to get rid of as many things you can as possible that you loathe. If you can get rid of all those things with money, it becomes an incredible tool. But of course, most of us don't have tons of money, especially if you're at the beginning of your career. So I want to remind people that money is just one of the tools. We also have a bunch of other ones, like our relationships, our youth, our energy, our passions, our skills. Those are all tools. And we can use those, too, to also pursue a life of purpose. So money's great, but it's not the only way to get there.
- [34:29]
Joel
So you're highlighting something too, though, when it comes to money and its impact on our purpose. Just the Further along you get towards financial independence and the more I think restrained you can be, especially some of those bigger line items, let's say a mortgage or rent or the cars that you own. It means you can potentially say no to five day work week and have the four day work week so that you can pursue hobbies that you love with a community you care about more deeply. Like, instead of funneling potentially, tell me your thoughts on this more money towards bigger purchases that maybe we think are going to put a smile on our face, we should be thinking about it in kind of an inverted way.
- [35:05]
Dr. Jordan Grummet
I think winning the game is trying to control time. But you and I know we can't control time. It's impossible. Time passes no matter what we do. The only thing we can do is fill that time with more or less purposeful activity. So winning the game is basically looking at your calendar and breaking that calendar down into time segments, whether we're talking about days, months or years, and filling as many of them as possible with things you love, little p purpose and getting rid of things you loathe. And so we have a bunch of tools to do that. And like we said, money is a great one. So the smarter you are with your money, the more you're a valueist, the more you spend money on what's important to you and don't spend it on what's not important to you, the more you're going to have leftover to use as a tool to live a more purposeful life. But again, I want to make sure people who don't have money realize that you have other tools and it behooves you to start using them today. So for instance, if you are 25 years old and you don't love your job and you feel like you can't pursue purpose, but if you had a little extra time, maybe you could start doing more purposeful things. Well, maybe you can use one of your other tools. Maybe you have family that lives in the area and you can stop renting apartments, start living with them and save enough each month to work four days out a week instead of five. You're still 25 years old, you're still a little bit strapped for your finances, but now you've been able to change the game using a tool other than money, in this case your connections, your family, to live a better life. And with that extra day a week you now have, you can fill it with something purposeful and that's winning the game. We use the joy of addition, add in purposeful activities, we use the Art of subtraction. Get rid of things we loathe and we do it over and over again. Wash, rinse, repeat, every week, month or year until our schedule looks more like things we love and very little like things we don't want to do.
- [37:02]
Matt
In that example that you just shared though, what's so fascinating about that is I think there are very few 25 year olds out there who would hear you say that and actually follow through and do it right. Like because they have co opted mainstream media and what is quote unquote successful out there. Like it takes courage, like it takes guts. And I'll just be honest, like I just don't see many people doing the kind of quote unquote crazy thing out there. And like oftentimes I think there are just so many distractions in our lives that keep us from sort of doing some of that self examination. Like I'm even thinking about technology, you know, how much blame do you think lies there's that has potentially prevented us maybe from self examining even more as to what it is us bringing about purpose and happiness in our lives.
- [37:44]
Dr. Jordan Grummet
I think a huge amount. Because as long as we are trying to find our purpose instead of looking deeper inside and realizing what lights us up, as long as we're trying to find our purpose, there are going to be tons of outlets that are willing to give us this version of purpose. And usually it's big and audacious and usually it benefits them and not you. But unless you start getting really thoughtful about this, you're going to be fed what other people want to feed you. And you have to be really clear about these decisions, especially if you don't have a lot of that tool of money. You got to be really clear about these decisions if you want to start improving that calculus of your schedule and doing more things you love and less things you loathe. But here's the magic and the excitement. Once you understand it, you start realizing there are millions of things you could do. What else could you do? Well, you know, if your company lets you go virtual, you could move to another country, a country that costs less. And yet you're still making your salary from the US and boom, before you know it, your expenses are down 50% but you're still making the same money. You now have more of that tool of money. You can do a bunch of different things. And I could go on and on there abundant ways to build purpose in your life. But we've been sold this bill of goods that purposes is difficult and big and painful and Hard to find until we accept the fact that it's actually abundant and obvious. And all we have to do is start building around it. Once we start accepting that, it gets a lot easier.
- [39:15]
Joel
Talk to us about what you call the climb. You say that it's the concept of purpose into action. And since I think you've done a really good job at making purpose feel more relatable and doable and actually a smaller endeavor than maybe people previously thought it was.
- [39:31]
Dr. Jordan Grummet
Which is.
- [39:31]
Joel
Which is good to know, especially as we're starting off a new year and people are like, how? Yeah, this is a question that's on people's mind. What's. What's the climb and how can that help?
- [39:40]
Dr. Jordan Grummet
So the climb is exactly that. It's purpose and action. So when people are trying to find their purpose, like we said, actually the better activity is to connect with your purpose anchors. But here's where it gets a touch difficult. Once you know it feels like purpose in your life, an anchor, you then have to build a life of purpose around it. That is the climb. And for any purpose anchor, you could do an infinite number of climbs. So Joel really liked basketball when he was a kid. He's now an adult, and feeling like his life is not as purposeful as he wants it to be. He knows a purpose anchor for him is basketball. What could be a number of climbs he could build around that, depending on what his interests are and where they lie. Well, Joel could play basketball. He could join a basketball league every week of people like him, professionals. Maybe he could find a podcasting basketball league. I mean, as crazy as that sounds, that could be a climb for him, and that could feel really purposeful. It could connect him to other people. It could increase the enjoyment in his life. But you're saying Joel doesn't like playing anymore and his knees hurt. Well, maybe Joel could start writing a blog about basketball. Maybe he could do a basketball podcast. Maybe he could start the Chicago Bulls fan club, because we know he loves Chicago. Who else would you. Would you cheer on? So, I mean, there are so many different things he could do related to basketball, and those are all different climbs. And here's the magic. All he has to do is start building a life around that purpose anchor, and if he doesn't enjoy the climb, jump off the mountain and start a new one. That's it.
- [41:14]
Joel
So is the climb sort of like brainstorming in regards to.
- [41:17]
Dr. Jordan Grummet
Well, the climb, though, is action. I think purpose anchors are kind of like the brainstorming. The climb is very action based. It's actually doing something very nice.
- [41:28]
Matt
So we're going to take a quick break and I'm not even sure where the conversation is going to go because I've got multiple questions for you, Jordan, but we'll get to all that and more right after this Debt payoff is the number one financial goal that Americans have for 2025. I love seeing that because debt, especially consumer debt, it can be such a bummer. It not only puts you in a precarious financial situation, the stress that it creates, it can be overwhelming. It impacts every other aspect of your life. That's why Navy Federal Credit Union is here to help you. They have all the financial tools and resources you need to dominate debt right now. They offer a 0% intro APR on credit card balance transfers for 12 months.
- [42:10]
Joel
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- [42:41]
Matt
So here on the podcast I know listeners have heard me talk about how I like to always have a big annual finance meeting with K right as we've wrapped up a great year as we are kicking off a new one. We are nerdy like that and each year is an opportunity to reflect and the plan for the future, like setting career goals or making financial moves and most importantly, ensuring your family is always taken care of no matter what happens. Make this the year that you check life insurance off your list and protect your family's future. With policygenius you can find life insurance policies that start at just $292 per year for $1 million of coverage. Some options are 100% online and let you avoid unnecessary medical exams.
- [43:23]
Joel
Matt I just double checked our life insurance policies to make sure we're adequately covered. We are thankful for that.
- [43:29]
Matt
Nice.
- [43:30]
Joel
It's a good idea for everyone out there to do that, particularly if your family needs have changed recently, right? You want to ensure that you have life insurance to cover loved ones expenses if something happens to you and policygenius makes a potentially onerous task. Ask Easy as pie.
- [43:45]
Matt
Secure your families tomorrow so you can have peace of mind today. Head to policygenius.com to get your free life insurance quotes. See how much you could save. That's policygenius.com do you want to understand.
- [43:58]
D
An invisible force that's shaping your life? I'm Osvaloshian, one of the new hosts of the long running podcast Tech Stuff. I'm slightly skeptical but obsessively intrigued.
- [44:08]
Joel
And I'm Cara Price, the other new host and I'm ready to adopt early.
- [44:12]
D
And often on tech stuff. We travel all the way from the mines of Congo to the surface of Mars to the dark corners of TikTok to ask and attempt to answer burning questions about technology.
- [44:23]
Dr. Jordan Grummet
One of the kind of tricks for surviving Mars is to live there long enough so that people evolve into Martians.
- [44:29]
Matt
Like data is a very rough proxy for a complex reality. How is it possible that the world.
- [44:36]
Dr. Jordan Grummet
New energy revolution can be based in this place where there's no electricity at night?
- [44:41]
Joel
Oz and I will cut through the noise to bring you the best conversations and deep dives that will help you understand how tech is changing our world and what you need to know to survive the singularity.
- [44:51]
D
So join us, listen to tech stuff on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.
- [45:00]
Matt
We are back from the break, still talking about finding fulfillment with Jordan Grumman. And Jordan, before the break we were talking about how like a lack of money or first of all, money, generally speaking, you are presenting it essentially as a tool when it comes to pursuing our purpose, there are multi. Like we've got a whole tool belt full of tools. And the one tool that Joel and I talk the most about is money that's out of money. But I feel like there might be some younger folks out there who are thinking, okay, yeah, you can say that you guys and your y'all are middle aged men, you've had a successful career, quote, unquote successful. I don't know how successful I would call myself, but it kind of sounds like an old man's game. And I guess I want to put a little pin in a criticism that might get lobbed our way where it's like, sure, you can afford to have these kind of conversations later in life. You've got money invested in the market. Oh, great. Yeah, the market's up 30%. Glad you're able to enjoy that after having invested for 20 years. I'm not in that kind of position. Do you think that at the stage of life that we are in that we are over indexing some of those other tools like youth, energy skills, things like that, because the fact is you can do a lot with the right amount of money at a pretty early age.
- [46:11]
Dr. Jordan Grummet
Yeah, I'd say as we get older, we're under indexing those other tools and over indexing money, which is fine because we're in this place hopefully of privilege, where we have a little money. But I think what you're really getting to is that privilege discussion, right? I'm 22, I'm working 60 hours a week. There's no way I have enough money to do what you old wealthy guys are doing. And so the argument there again goes back to the tools and the levers. We have all these tools. Our youth and our energy are great tools, by the way. And then we have levers which are the joy of addition, the art of subtraction and substitution. So let me give you an example. 22 year old working for non for profit. I talk about this guy in my book, hates his job but has to make enough money to put food on the table and feels lost, like he's a victim of this life and there's no way he has time or energy to pursue purpose first and foremost. Let's just talk about time real quick. The U.S. bureau of Labor Statistics does the time survey every bunch of years and basically shows your average American has five hours of free time a day. And in fact the lower socioeconomic classes have slightly more. So I don't think time is really the reason. So let's talk about money. Well, as a 22 year old, this person I talk about my book doesn't have some of the things that I have, like I'm 51, I have kids, I have a mortgage, I'm married. But at 22, you have some of these tools of your youth and your energy. You might not have a lot you have to do on a Saturday or a Sunday. So this person went and they started thinking about their purpose anchors, like what's important to me, what excites me. They used this exercise of looking at their joys of childhood and realized that they loved bike racing. It was something they did in high school. And because they didn't have much money then either, they became really adroit at fixing their own bike. So what does this person do? Well, they say, well, I can use the joy of addition and I'm working 60 hours a week and that's not making me happy. But I can add in something joyful on Sunday because I'm young and I have some energy and I don't have a family. So I'm gonna go to the local Bike track and I'm gonna offer to fix people's bikes for pay, something I love doing and I love being at the racetrack and I love hanging out with those people. And let's say that person does that for six months. One of two things happens. Either they make no money at it, but they're still winning the game because now all of a sudden, they're spending three or four hours on Sunday doing something more purposeful than they were. So they use the joy of addition to add purposeful activity in their life. And remember when we talk about that calculus of your schedule over many, many, many years, you are bringing in more purposeful activity in your life. But let's say the other thing happens and he does start making some money. And let's say that money gives him a little margin that he can start working four days a week instead of five, or maybe eight hours a day instead of 10. Basically, then you're using the art of subtraction to get rid of something you don't enjoy, which is work. So joy of addition to add in purposeful activity, art of subtraction to get rid of activity you loathe and you're winning the game. And if a 22 year old can do that, think about over the weeks and months and years of our career, how we can continuously improve things so that we are doing less we loathe and more we love. And so that's the power and the magic of understanding what your purpose anchors are and starting to build these climbs around them is it makes you super adaptable and it improves your life. And just imagine if you practice this throughout your 20s, how good in your 30s and 40s you're going to be at this. And in the meantime, if they listen to your podcast and start spending wisely and saving and investing in all the things you guys are talking about, they're not going to only be crafty with all these other tools in their tool belt, but they're also going to have plenty of money and then it becomes super powerful.
- [49:54]
Joel
Yeah. So you were talking about my love for basketball as a kid. I don't really love basketball anymore. Honestly, if I have nothing to do with basketball for the rest of my life, that's okay, except for maybe the occasional pickup game with friends or something like that. But I found other things that kind of light the fire under me that I would have said five years ago, not interested in. And now for some reason, they're this meaningful part of my life that take a good portion of my life. How does purpose change and morph over time. And how do we know maybe when to kind of like subtract or add something in that maybe isn't kind of hitting that same sweet spot that it used to be?
- [50:27]
Dr. Jordan Grummet
It's all about simplicity. Purpose are the actions in the present and future that light you up. Purpose can be big or small. It can be long term or short term. It can immediately impact the world, but it certainly doesn't have to. No rules other than you like the process of doing what you're doing. And so then it just becomes the comparison game. This thing feels purposeful. I love and enjoy doing this activities until I don't. And then I stop doing those activities and start doing other ones. And there'll be times when you have different purpose anchors in your life and you build climbs around them and you'll find one climb becomes more dominant than the others. And in fact, you stop doing some of those other climbs because this one is filling you up and lighting you up more. Here's the thing that's all totally okay. There are no rules other than fill your time with more stuff you love and less stuff you loathe. So you're going to continuously being the joy of addition and the art of subtraction and substitution the rest of your life. And that's totally fine. You can't go wrong here. There's almost no way to fail. Once you look at it this way.
- [51:33]
Matt
Do you think that there is any like, inherent virtue to like, you're talking about dropping or, you know, the art of subtraction, right? Dropping certain anchors, adopting new ones. Do you think there's anything that's inherently virtuous about sticking with a certain anchor over a longer period of time or for a duration, as opposed to what? Some folks, I don't know, I'm just making this up, but might call it like anchor hopping, to borrow your terminology. But as they're going from one thing to the next, only giving it maybe a couple years before, maybe moving on, or even finding themselves that they're drawn to something else. I'm curious to get your thoughts there.
- [52:09]
Dr. Jordan Grummet
So here's the deal. When you do something that lights you up, that's when you're gonna have maximal impact and legacy. You're gonna connect to more people, you're gonna do more meaningful collaborations. You're gonna eventually touch more people. So here's the thing. Thing, you kind of have to go with how you feel. So if you are a purpose anchor hopper or a climb hopper, but that's, you know, it fills you up for a certain amount of time, then it stops filling you up. If you stick with that thing that isn't filling you up for some kind of larger goal, it goes from being little P purpose, the really healthy kind of big P purpose, and you're going to burn out, and it's not going to light you up anymore, and you're not going to impact people as much and it's not going to feel as meaningful. And so I think it just depends on who the you are as a person. There is no virtue in sticking with something that's lost its thrill just in service of some type of big, audacious goal, because ultimately you'll leave. And that's the same thing. I could have said the same thing about medicine. Maybe I should have stuck with medicine because my ability to help people and change the world was greater. But the longer I tried to do that, the more I burned out. When I started doing things I loved, like podcasting and public speaking and blogging, something strange happened. I might affect a thousand patients a year at most, but when I started blogging and podcasting and public speaking, I started affecting thousands and thousands and thousands of people more because I was doing something that lit me up. That was never my plan, that was never my goal, but I ended up attracting people because like a moth to a flame, they saw me lit up and they wanted to be involved. And that's what led to all these collaborations and to all these guests on my podcast and eventually getting an agent and books. And all of that came from doing things that lit me up. And I ended up having more of an impact than being a doctor. But I would have never known that at the start.
- [54:06]
Joel
Drill down a little bit on kind of your journey with purpose, because in the book, you make it sound like the first 40 years of your life life were not purposeless, but that you had a hard time figuring out what your purpose was. But now it sounds like you're like, living in it and living your best life.
- [54:26]
Dr. Jordan Grummet
So here's the thing. When my dad died, he was an oncologist, a doctor. I felt responsible because I was seven years old. He had a brain aneurysm. It had nothing to do with me. But 7 year olds kind of see life through the lens of they are everything. So I figured he died because I wasn't enough or something was wrong with me. And I thought I could cosmically fix that, becoming a doctor like him. So I had a big, audacious purpose. I wanted to fix his death. And the way I was going to do that was to become a doctor. So I co opted his version of purpose, thinking that would make me happy. Now, I'll tell you, there was a lot of joy in this idea of becoming a doctor and the excitement about it. And I loved studying and all of those things. So it wasn't that it. It didn't fill me up in a.
- [55:10]
Matt
Way, yeah, it wasn't a waste.
- [55:12]
Dr. Jordan Grummet
It wasn't a waste. But as I got older, I realized that those things I thought it was, it wasn't like I became a doctor. And guess what? I didn't fix my father's death. It didn't work. So instead I was doing these things, which by the time I was practicing, I realized I didn't enjoy the process of doing them. So I was filling my time doing things I didn't like in order to reach a goal that was pretty much impossible. And so that's how I started to finally realize something's wrong here. And I knew because, you know, I didn't have a lot of doctor friends. Like, I wasn't building the community and connections because this identity, this sense of purpose wasn't fitting me. I didn't like hanging out with doctors. I didn't like telling people that I was a doctor. I was almost embarrassed, strangely enough, when I started pursuing what really felt like little purpose. Purpose to me, because I knew I liked writing and blogging and podcasting. And when I started doing that stuff, I started connecting to people like you guys. And I was like, I found my people because after 10 or 15 minutes of talking to fellow bloggers and podcasters, I felt like I knew them more than I do doctors I had known for decades. And so I wouldn't say that the beginning of my life was purposeless. I think I was pursuing a version of purpose that ultimately wasn't going to make me happy. And that's why I had to pivot it.
- [56:28]
Matt
And all the while, you were still able to provide value to the world. It's not like you were some sort of leech on society, Jordan.
- [56:35]
Dr. Jordan Grummet
But, like, and it did fill me up. I mean, you know, even the things I do now, like, I wrote a book about what the hospice patients can teach us about money and life. So clearly this has had a huge impact on me. My ability to tell stories and some of the lessons that I now put in my books are all gleaned from that time as a doctor. And so, again, remember, we talk about the different difference between meaning and purpose. I tell myself a heroic story. I say, I went into this thing that didn't suit me, but look at all this bounty that came from it. I wasn't thwarted, I wasn't a victim. I lived a magical life. And that life has brought me here, where I get to do these things which are amazing and exciting. My sense of meaning, the story I tell myself about myself, is a heroic journey. I can't imagine looking at it and saying, boy, that was a waste.
- [57:26]
Joel
Last question. The fire movement is all about financial independence. Retire early. It's like saving 60, 70% of my income so that I can retire at 38 or 36 or whatever it is. I get why that's appealing. But sometimes in order to be able to live the purpose you want to, especially in some of those really important years where you have typically better health, you have your youth, there's a big trade off that comes from working extra, banking extra, and maybe missing out on things that would provide fulfillment. So how do you think about that now? I see some serious flaws and it seems like the fire movement has moderated in some ways. But the fulfillment versus fire, are they, I don't know, smashing heads a little bit?
- [58:15]
Dr. Jordan Grummet
Well, here's the problem. I mean, fire is wonderful and I'm so glad I found financial independence because it gave me the vocabulary and the framework to build a financial future. On the other hand, it's very money focused. So what you're really doing is focusing on the tool. So you're making a trade off. You're saying, I'm going to spend a lot of time not doing things that are important to me to make money so that one day I can stop working at making money and then live this life of purpose and activities that I love doing and things that light me up. So you're making this intentional decision decision, which is wonderful if you are for sure going to live to 80 or 90 and for sure are going to succeed. And for sure don't mind putting off some of your life like, you know, it so happens when you're in your 20s, a lot of time, that's the first time you meet your spouse, right? So it's a season of your life that doesn't come back, that honeymoon phase. And like, you cannot go on awesome vacations and you can spend weekends and nights in the office instead of spending time with that spouse. But once that time is gone, for instance, once you have children, that time of being newlyweds or together without children is gone. Do you want to miss that season of your life because you've decided that building this tool of money is more important than living life now. And so we have to be really intentional about that decision. I think grinding it out is okay on some level, especially if you're very intentional. But if you take it to an extreme, you miss out on all the good stuff. And sometimes those seasons pass and you can't get it back. Or God forbid, you're like my dad and you die when you're 40 and never really get to use that tool of wealth to live the life you want to live. So I want to empower people to feel like they can start building purpose in their life now, whether they have enough money or not, but also build a financial framework around it so that they can begin now, today, when they're 22 or 25 or 30, but then they can continue improving the calculus of that calendar, building up enough money to use it as a powerful tool to get rid of things you loathe, to build in more things you like. It's all an iterative process. But I wouldn't want people to just give up on purpose early in life because they think they got to grind it out and reach fire first because you just don't know what the future is going to bring or even if you'll live to that vaunted time that you reach financial independence. And some people never make it to financial independence and I don't want that to preclude them from living a good life today.
- [60:44]
Matt
Man, well said. I personally feel empowered based on what you're saying here, Jordan. And man, it's so true. It's so much about trade offs. And you said something else too, just about this being an iterative process. The fact that I think for folks to hear that they're not necessarily going to get it right straight out of the gate, but that this is something that we continue to refine and something that we revisit over the years to see what it is that's going to to make the biggest impact in our lives and our family's lives and our community. All of the above. But Jordan, we really appreciate you taking the time to talk with us today. We will certainly make sure to link to your book which came out yesterday actually. And so we'll link to that in the show notes. Anywhere else you want folks to go to learn more about you and what's going on.
- [61:29]
Dr. Jordan Grummet
Easiest place to go is jordangrummet.com that's J-O-R-A-N G-R-U-M E T.com There you can find links to both my books Taking stock and now The Purpose Code, as well as all the places I create content, including the Earn and Invest podcast and the Purpose Code substack. Check me out. Jordangrumbit.com Nice.
- [61:47]
Joel
Jordan, always a pleasure, man. Thanks for coming on.
- [61:49]
Dr. Jordan Grummet
Thank you so much for having me, man.
- [61:51]
Matt
Always so fun to talk with our friend Jordan Grummet. But what was your big takeaway, though, with our conversation?
- [61:57]
Joel
Man, there's so much overlap between kind of what Jordan talks about and we talk more about the money stuff, but we want that purpose and meaning to infuse everything that we talk about instead of just, just talking about the nuts and bolts of monies and Roth IRAs. And that obviously plays a part because we want to make money progress. But it should.
- [62:15]
Matt
You got to get specific.
- [62:15]
Joel
Yeah. But it should influence, I think, the overarching goals and purpose of our life.
- [62:20]
Matt
Agreed.
- [62:21]
Joel
And when he talks about community and connections, I think that's spot on. Right. Because even if you get into something, a new athletic endeavor or a new hobby, like, the connections you can make inside of that world are typically the most fulfilling part of it. Like. Yes. Yeah. Do you like pickleball? Cool. It's a fun sport. Right. But the, maybe the most fun thing is when you, on Saturday mornings at 6am get up and play with this big group of folks who also love it, and then you hang out and have coffee afterwards.
- [62:49]
Matt
Yeah.
- [62:49]
Joel
And so I think, personally, I think.
- [62:51]
Matt
That'S why pickleball has taken off in our country like it has over the past few years, because it has that social connectivity, community element. I think a lot of times folks may not even realize that, but, like, that's what they're drawn to celestial. The, this little silly game that they're playing with paddles.
- [63:04]
Joel
Same thing with triple F. Right. Which is like the workout based thing. And people say, oh yeah, the workout's fine, but it's the man, the relationships I've developed by going to that have been instrumental to my life. And so, yeah, one of my friends, he says, all my wealth is in relationships. I like the idea of growing monetary wealth, obviously, because of the podcast we do. But I think that's not a bad motto to have for your life, is for your relational connection to be preeminent, because I think that that will influence purpose. And I think Jordan boiled down to that as being one of the foremost reasons for happiness. And I think this time of year too. Purpose over goals. That's why we wanted to have Jordan on. Now there's so much talk about goals, goal setting. What are you going to accomplish this year.
- [63:43]
Matt
And those are the big P's which are good to have, but can oftentimes leave you burnt out and feeling kind of demoralized.
- [63:50]
Joel
That's right. So I think that talking more about purpose and being more introspective about that, that could potentially get you where you want to go this year more than maybe some crusty old goal setting agenda that you were thinking about trying out.
- [64:02]
Matt
Nice. Okay, so my big takeaway is going to be. So he talked a lot about purpose anchors, which are the things that we can kind of like latch onto, you know, like. Like picture like an anchor that goes into a wall or even like a boat anchor. Right. And building your life around these things that bring you fulfillment. And at some point he was talking about going with how it is that you feel when it comes to identifying these things, which kind of raised a red flag in my mind. Cause I'm just like, man, what do we know about feelings? They are fickle. And like, one day you might love something, the next day you might hate it, but ultimately you might find yourself overanalyzing it. And I think instead what you need to do is focus on the things that bring you enjoyment, like over the long haul. Like, think about it like the stock market. We're not talking about what is it that is going up and to the right just in one day, but zoom out, like. Like zoom out over a week, over a month, over a year, even over decades. And what is the activity or the purpose anchor that pretty much is going to constantly lead to you going up into the right? Another analogy is, makes me think about, like, a tattoo. I don't have any tattoos, but if I were to get a tattoo, and I've even said this to Kate before, it would need to be something that I'm never going to change my mind on because I don't want to have to go back in and get it like laser removed. Right?
- [65:11]
Joel
Had my friends change their minds on.
- [65:13]
Matt
Tattoo, but there are very few things that would do that. But for me, it would be maybe faith based. It would be something family based. And I think that if there is something in your life that is that foundational or a bald eagle and American.
- [65:25]
Joel
Flag, probably you ain't change your mind on America, Matt.
- [65:28]
Matt
Even still, who knows? I don't know, Maybe I'll end up moving to a different country, depending on the state of the country, become a Francophile. But I think it's fine to identify some of these, like, major purpose anchors that you can kind of build your life around or Again, don't overthink it. Like, what's something that just lights you up right. Without getting overly analytical about it. And I think by taking small baby steps, like the example he gave at the beginning, like this, the whole swimming example, it's like, okay, you don't have to get a like Ironman triathlon tattoo because now you're a hardcore swimmer. No. How about you just start by going one day a week with your buddy and going to swim and maybe it turns into this other thing, but you have an over committed to something like that. And don't be af. I guess maybe I'm speaking out of my own from my own perspective, but I would be afraid of like over committing to something and being like, well, I don't know if that's who I am. And it's like, well, it doesn't have to be who you are. Just take some of these small baby steps in that direction and then just see how. Whether or not that lights you up or not.
- [66:21]
Joel
Yeah. And I think when he said the feelings thing, Matt, that also kind of hit me a little interesting. Hit me a little weird because yeah, there are times where I don't feel great about coming into work on a certain day, even though so overarchingly. I love what we do.
- [66:34]
Matt
Exactly.
- [66:35]
Joel
And I love the work that we get to create and how to. Money is a big p. Purpose thing in my life. But you're right, the feelings don't always.
- [66:43]
Matt
Shouldn't always dictate, don't always align with maybe what it is you should be doing.
- [66:47]
Joel
That longer term perspective.
- [66:48]
Matt
Yeah. Which again, maybe this is a good application with like the whole investing thing, but being able to zoom out, identifying like an overarching trend as opposed to like the day to day gyrations of how you feel or even what the market's doing.
- [67:00]
Joel
For sure. But let's get back to the beginning beer.
- [67:02]
Matt
A beer that was sent to us by Mary. Is it Mary Starboard? Yeah, she sent this to us as well as actually, should we mention, not only did she send her husband's favorite beer, she sent us this Aldi Christmas decoration. And by Aldi Christmas decoration, I literally mean it's this Christmas village miniature Aldi store that lights up when you turn it on. You know, like the kind of Christmas village that you create with like people ice skating. You got, you kind of got the white fluff around. This is something to kind of like slip in there without being noticed in the background next to some cottages or something like that. But she sent this our way.
- [67:36]
Joel
It's the only Christmas decoration we have.
- [67:38]
Matt
I know.
- [67:39]
Joel
And so thank you, Mary, for. We really should have put some tinsel or something up here, but we've got an Aldi store, which is actually perfectly fitting.
- [67:46]
Matt
Well, the question is, how long do we leave this up in our office? Because we love Aldi. All year long.
- [67:50]
Joel
Well, we've talked about keeping our Christmas tree up all month of January.
- [67:54]
Matt
Really?
- [67:54]
Joel
Yeah. Just because it's too depressing. It's the most depressing month of the year. So, like, you gotta have some sort of. That's what Emily and I were literally just talking about this. How December's so great because it's cold, but it's festive and there's lights everywhere and January's the worst because it's cold and everyone's taking down their lights.
- [68:08]
Matt
Anyone prolong the enjoyment?
- [68:10]
Joel
Yeah, the beer.
- [68:11]
Matt
The beer, though, that you and I enjoyed was a cold brewed coffee lager by Steelhands Brewing. But yeah, what'd you think about this one?
- [68:18]
Joel
So this combines two of our favorite things. We love coffee. We love beer.
- [68:21]
Matt
Indeed.
- [68:21]
Joel
And. And usually coffee goes in stouts or porters in bigger, darker, roastier beers, which makes sense. But you don't often get coffee in a lager. So this is like a light beer with cold brew kind of infused into it. And I wasn't sure what I was going to think about this, but I liked it.
- [68:39]
Matt
Me too. Okay, nice.
- [68:41]
Joel
I was impressed.
- [68:42]
Matt
We both have basically finished ours by the end of our conversation with Jordan.
- [68:45]
Joel
Yeah. And I think it's partly because the coffee didn't get overwhelmed in the same way that it tends to do in some of those bigger 13% stouts or something like that, where there's all of these other notes going on. This was like coffee on top of a beer. But I feel like I got the coffee more so than I would in a lot of other coffee beers.
- [69:04]
Matt
Yeah, it was perfectly coffee while at the same time being perfectly beer. And I feel like oftentimes, yeah, there's like, I don't know, a mingling of the two, but it almost felt like these two were like, like separate as I was drinking it. Like the initial notes were totally coffee, but then you get like the bitter notes from. From the hops there in the lager. But I enjoyed this, I'll be honest, more than I was expecting when I first thought. I was just like, oh, man, I'm not totally sure about this, But I would 100%, totally drink this, Enjoy some of this coffee. Roasted coffee flavors without the hang up of maybe staying up too late due to the caffeine intake.
- [69:36]
Joel
But that's a good point.
- [69:37]
Matt
Really enjoyed it. Mary, thank you so much for sending this one our way. Well, like we said, we'll link to Jordan's book up on the website@howtomoney.com it is out now. Be sure to check it out. But buddy, that's going to be it. So until next time, best friends out. Best friends out.
- [70:05]
Joel
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- [71:26]
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Want to see into the future? Do you want to understand an invisible force that's shaping your life? Do you want to experience the frontiers of what makes up human? On tech stuff, we travel from the mines of Congo to the surface of Mars, from conversations with Nobel Prize winners to the depths of TikTok to ask burning questions about technology, from high tech to low culture and everywhere in between. Join Us Listen to tech stuff on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.