Gen Z vs. The Old Money Rules w/ Lillian Zhang #1070

Summary

How to Money Podcast Summary

Episode: Gen Z vs. The Old Money Rules w/ Lillian Zhang #1070
Podcast: How to Money (iHeartPodcasts)
Date: December 3, 2025
Host: Joel
Guest: Lillian Zhang (Author, “The New Money Rules”)

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Main Theme & Purpose

This episode dives into how Gen Z approaches personal finance, contrasting "old money rules" with the realities young adults face today. Host Joel interviews Lillian Zhang—a content creator and author—about generational shifts in attitudes to saving, investing, student debt, career paths, and what it means to achieve financial freedom. The discussion covers practical strategies, mindset shifts, and why Gen Z is rewriting the personal finance playbook.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Personal Finance Upbringings & Mindsets

• Lillian’s Background: Daughter of Chinese immigrants, grew up absorbing a “scarcity mindset” around money due to parents’ struggles and lack of direct financial education.
  • “I had a lot of subconscious thoughts about [money] that have stayed with me into my early adulthood.” (05:04 – Lillian)
• Both Lillian and Joel recall hearing arguments about money as kids, impacting their desire to achieve financial security.

2. Early Financial Literacy & Entrepreneurship

• Lillian ran an Etsy business through middle and high school, which taught her the value of a dollar early.
  • “My parents never actually really provided me an allowance…I became very hyper aware that it was very difficult to earn a dollar.” (08:58 – Lillian)
• Entry into investing came late (not until college), primarily self-taught via YouTube and a Berkeley course.

3. Gen Z vs. Older Generations: What’s Actually Different?

• Abundance vs. Overwhelm of Information:
  • Some Gen Zs leverage abundant online resources to start early; others are paralyzed by options.
  • “I see people and peers typically fall into two buckets…people feel very overwhelmed and don’t know where to start.” (13:20 – Lillian)
• Compared to Millennials, Gen Z is more open about money—a shift driven by social media “loud budgeting” and TikTok trends.
  • “On TikTok, it’s so casual to see someone just talking about how much debt they have and how they’re planning to pay that off.” (15:32 – Lillian)
• Gen Z faces unique hurdles: stagnant wages, high housing/education costs, and increased economic pressure—but is also more entrepreneurial and digitally savvy.

4. Investing: Trends and Pitfalls

• Gen Z invests earlier but is also drawn to higher-risk strategies (crypto, options, meme stocks, etc.), often pushed by FOMO and viral social media success stories.
  • “I think a lot of my peers are seeking short term gains…we tend to forget to zoom out for the bigger picture.” (18:02 – Lillian)
  • “By the time you see [a hot investment] it’s probably already over.” (20:08 – Lillian)
• Lillian endorses long-term, sustainable investing; most of her portfolio is in broad-market ETFs.

5. Economic Pessimism, YOLO, & Planning

• Some young adults withdraw into a "YOLO" mindset, resigning future planning as impossible; others double down on saving and education, aiming to overcome systemic challenges.
  • “I know plenty of high earners in my peer group…they’re just not prioritizing [the future] because they want to live in the now.” (28:10 – Lillian)

6. Reaching the First $100K: Privilege, Saving, & Early Action

• Acknowledges privilege (Lillian had no student loans).
  • “Everyone is different. So don’t feel behind if someone is doing something because you’re always on your own journey.” (30:18 – Lillian)
• Key: Aggressive saving, opening a Roth IRA, starting early—even modest amounts compounded matter.

7. Rethinking Student Debt and College

• Warns how 18-year-olds sign major loan contracts without understanding implications.
• Advises working backwards from desired career salaries to gauge appropriate debt load.
  • “It’s really down to just like numbers and math.” (34:45 – Lillian)
• Advocates for broad, practical majors plus minor in passion areas—keep passion alive without overextending financially.

8. “Loud Budgeting” & New Budget Rules

• TikTok trend: sharing financial goals publicly for accountability and destigmatizing budgeting.
  • “It was just more of a really fun and open conversation about how people approach spending their money…” (38:09 – Lillian)
• Focus on aligning spending with values—budgeting not about restriction, but empowerment and clarity.

9. Careers, Side Hustles & the “Portfolio Career”

• Gen Z is likely to have many careers, not just jobs. The “portfolio career” means blending skills across industries, embracing side gigs that compound value (content creation, entrepreneurship).
• Distinguishes between transactional side hustles (e.g., Uber) and scalable, skill-based ventures.

10. Homeownership: Old vs. New Rules

• Owning a house isn’t the only mark of financial “success”—especially in high-cost areas.
  • “The idea of owning a house as a single person is a lot more daunting…we are okay and content with renting and that it’s not the end of the world.” (46:20 – Lillian)
• Recommends adjusting expectations or being prepared for greater sacrifice/work.

11. Financial Freedom: Defining Success on Your Own Terms

• Lillian’s definition has shifted from pure scarcity/saving to a blend of security, enjoying the present, and supporting loved ones.
  • “Money is just a means to live your life to the way that you desire or expect…the object of money itself is not the reason why we’re doing all these things.” (54:10 – Lillian)

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On Learning by Doing:
  “There’s this power I think when young kids, young people earn money and then they have to make saving versus spending choices.” (10:47 – Joel)

• On Social Media’s Positive Role:
  “People really like to see the journey of going from one place to a different and more developed version of themselves.” (15:32 – Lillian)

• On Risky Investing and FOMO:
  “The only person that really benefits [from viral investing trends] are the people who are promoting them because they got in early. By the time you see it, it’s probably already over.” (20:08 – Lillian)

• On Old vs. New Housing Rules:
  “A lot of Gen Z, we don’t really relate to that [‘you must buy a house’] anymore. Especially like you said, like high housing prices…it’s just much more difficult.” (46:20 – Lillian)

• On Overcoming Scarcity Mindset:
  “The more things you try and the more things you are open to like try doing…the light bulb moment was when some of my first advertisers reached out to me.” (55:18 – Lillian)

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Important Segment Timestamps

• Meeting Lillian, Early Splurges, and Financial Upbringing: 01:54 – 06:52
• Entrepreneurial Beginnings & Discovering Investing: 08:36 – 11:53
• Gen Z’s Info Overload and Openness: 13:20 – 15:32
• Gen Z Investment Trends & FOMO: 18:02 – 21:19
• Attitude Shifts: YOLO Mentality vs. Long-Term Planning: 26:26 – 29:15
• First $100K, Privilege & Starting Early: 29:25 – 32:44
• College Debt and Choosing Degrees: 33:30 – 36:53
• Redefining Budgeting/Loud Budgeting: 38:09 – 40:13
• The New “Portfolio Career”/Job-Hopping Reality: 41:10 – 45:19
• Buying vs. Renting—Adjusting the American Dream: 45:41 – 47:43
• Defining Financial Freedom, Outgrowing Scarcity Mindset: 52:24 – 54:39
• One Actionable Tip (Automate Your Savings!): 58:05 – 58:49

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Actionable Takeaways for Listeners

1. Start Early—Even Small Investments Compound

• Automate savings and Roth IRA contributions, even if they seem insignificant now. Consistency outpaces perfection or picking the next hot thing.

2. Don’t Let Fear or Overwhelm Paralyze You

• If the information flood is paralyzing, pick a trusted source and start with the basics.

3. Be Open: “Loud” Budgeting Can Help

• Discuss money goals with friends and family (or online) to increase accountability and normalize money conversations.

4. Rethink “Success”

• Success and financial independence look different now. Renting is not failure. Skill-building matters more than rigid career ladders.

5. Understand the Costs of Debt and Education

• Forecast career salaries before taking on significant debt; combine practicality with passion strategically.

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Closing Thought

Lillian closes with an encouragement to focus on automation and intentionality:

“Automating your savings and paying yourself first…immediately allows you put funds away for your future self…Definitely recommend the automation aspect.” (58:05 – Lillian)

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Connect with Lillian Zhang:

• Book: The New Money Rules (available everywhere)
• Socials: Instagram, TikTok, LinkedIn, YouTube – @LillianZhang

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For Gen Z (and beyond):
Old rules no longer fit the current financial landscape. Stay open, stay curious, and define financial success on your own terms—while never forgetting the power of starting now, no matter how small.

Transcript

[Lillian Zhang]

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[Joel]

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[Joel]

Hey, it's Joel and Matt from how to Money. I was just in Seattle, Matt, and honestly, it's one of the greatest cities in the world, particularly in the summer. I went on this run by the water. We hopped a ferry across Puget Sound. Just an unforgettable.

[Matt]

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[Matt]

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[Joel]

I'm Joel, and today I'm talking Gen Z versus the Old Money Rules with Lillian Zhang. Okay, let's talk about money and the youths today. While a lot of personal finance advice is evergreen and helpful to find folks of all ages, it's also important to reach people where they are and in the way they like to consume information. As a middle Aged dad. I hope to stay relevant for a long time to come, but I don't think I'll have the same street cred as my guest today. So I wanted to have Lillian Zhang on to talk about the particular hurdles Gen Z faces on the financial front and the new money rules Lillian thinks they should follow. Lillian, I promise not to tell you to get off my lawn. Thank you for joining me today on the podcast.

[Lillian Zhang]

Thank you, Joel. I'm super excited to be here today and speak to you.

[Joel]

I'm so glad to have you. First question I ask everybody who comes on is, what do you like to splurge on? Craft beer is my big splurge, but hey, it's okay because I'm saving and I'm investing for my future. I'm not blowing it all on beer. What's your splurge?

[Lillian Zhang]

My splurge personally is definitely on convenience. So things that make my life easier or help me save time. And so one thing is I live near San Francisco, and if you know anything about sf, the hills there are insane. So I really try to avoid driving there. So I really like to splurge on Ubers while I'm in the city. In terms of other splurges, I like to splurge on food, meal prep kits to help me not think about cooking as much and also economy plus or premium flights for me and my family so we can travel more comfortably.

[Joel]

Okay, so meal prep kits is the. We tried. I think we got, like an intro offer to one and we tried it, and the kids kind of rebelled against it. And it's probably for the. The best because it is. Ultimately it's cheaper, right, to go get. Source your own food at the grocery store and cook your own meals. But is it a way to, like, sneakily avoid going out to eat as much, which would save you money?

[Lillian Zhang]

I think that's an interesting question because if you look at the meal prep kits, the cost per meal is actually not that less than a restaurant meal.

[Joel]

Okay.

[Lillian Zhang]

But I also like it because it gives me ideas for different recipes that I could perhaps replicate after I try the meal kit. If I like something from the meal kit, I can just source those own ingredients after, afterwards.

[Joel]

Okay. So that's. That's kind of smart. You're like learning the recipe playbook through the meal kits, and then you're like, great, now I know how to make some extra stuff. It's like a tutorial of sorts in the kitchen. Thinking of it that way.

[Lillian Zhang]

Oh, yes. Definitely gives me some more ideas for what to Diversify my palate.

[Joel]

Okay, I like that, I like that. All right. Your parents, by the way, they emigrated to the US from China in the 1980s. Can you talk to me about how that impacted your childhood and then ultimately your views on personal finance too?

[Lillian Zhang]

Yeah, so my parents immigrated here in the 80s from China during closely after the Cultural Revolution in China, which was a very difficult time for a lot of the citizens there at the time. And so they felt a lot of the post educational effects, economic effects, and that's what drove a lot of people to the United States at the time, including my parents. And so when they came here, they had to start from zero in terms of their education in this back home didn't count towards education received in the US they go to college here. They were hustling really hard to get their degrees here, which is so admirable. And when they had me, I was born in 2000. We grew up in the Midwest and eventually moved to California for more job opportunities when I was in like first grade. And I remember that it was really difficult for my dad sometimes when it came to certain job opportunities because he wasn't a native English speaker. So I think it was just a bit more friction there in terms of how that shaped my upbringing with money. I remember my parents didn't really talk to me about money in terms of an educational way, but I heard it through their own conversations and arguments about money in terms of a scarcity mindset, the fear of it that it could run out one day, or that the fear we didn't have enough accumulated job opportunities, things like that. So even though we didn't really speak about money in the household directly, I had a lot of subconscious thoughts about it that have stayed with me into my early adulthood. And we could go into more of that later.

[Joel]

Yeah, so it's interesting that you say arguments because in my house there were arguments about money. Growing up and being in the room across from my parents room, I heard those many nights. My parents, wonderful people they are. I admire them more than anyone else I know. But that's still influenced in a meaningful way the way I think about money and not wanting to have money issues to argue about with my future spouse. Do you think that that seeped into you as well, hearing kind of money fights and money problems and you're like, I don't want that to be me.

[Lillian Zhang]

Oh, definitely. I remember hearing a lot of arguments when I was younger and even just being more hyper aware that money was this like important construct in high and in college. And I Just remember just thinking like, oh, I never want to feel like I'm struggling or have those types of anxious thoughts into my adulthood. And so going back to your point, I think that drove a lot of my future career decisions and mindset in college, which we can definitely dive deeper into, but definitely influenced sort of the way that I approach, like, work and money growing up.

[Joel]

Yeah. What particular experiences shaped your personal finance philosophy the most then? So that maybe sparked a desire to increase your knowledge, but then where did you turn? Right, as you're trying to figure out? Because personal finance most of the time has not been, especially when you were in high school, it will be, I think, for future generations, more widely taught. But where'd you get the information that you needed to be able to succeed with money?

[Lillian Zhang]

Yeah, so actually this is an interesting question because I actually became very hyper aware of money from the conversations from my parents, but also in my own, like, childhood endeavors. So for context, I actually ran a small business for a couple of years from, like, middle school to high school.

[Joel]

Was it. Was this your Etsy business?

[Lillian Zhang]

This was my Etsy business that I talked about in the introduction of the book, like the very first page. This is my Etsy business. And so from a very young age, I actually had allowance money and spending money. So my parents never actually really provided me an allowance as a kid. I just kind of made my own allowance as a kid. And so I became very hyper aware that it was very difficult to earn a dollar. I knew the value of a dollar when I was a kid. I was like, oh, like, this is tough. Like, it's not easy to make money. At least when I was younger I thought that. And growing up, I didn't really learn about, like, investing or stocks. For my parents, the only thing they really taught me was to not spend your money on unnecessary things and making sure you save money. So those were the main things I learned from my parents. I actually didn't really understand what a stock was until I got to university, which I think made me feel a little behind compared to some of my peers. But I actually learned a lot of my personal finance knowledge in College through YouTube videos. And this is especially when YouTubers like Graham Stephan and Andre Jick, they were, like, extremely popular. I think they're still very popular, but it was like the super high heydays. I also learned through a personal finance course at Berkeley. Actually the professors there have been teaching the course for maybe close to two decades at this point. So it was a pretty foundational course I took in college. But I know not many schools have that sort of educational opportunity, but besides from that, books as well. Books and online media I'd say are my main two sources at the time.

[Joel]

I love the story about your Etsy store and I think there's so much value for young people. Like when we talk about high school jobs, the value is partially, yes, in the money that you're earning, but it's in that attachment of realizing that work is what leads to money. Which most of the time that's the case. Obviously the further along you get in your investing career, the you have the ability for your money to work harder for you than you have to work for it, which is really cool too. But there's this power I think when young kids, young people earn money and then they have to make saving versus spending choices. I see that in my own kids as well as they're getting into that age where they have choices to make with the money in their account and they're like, how much money do I have in my account? Let me take a look. Okay, so I'm gonna plan on go out with my friends, I can get some Boba tea or whatever, but then I'm not gonna be able to get that other thing I really want. What was that like for you, having money as an early teenager, as a young teenager and then having to make those choices for yourself would you wanted to do with it?

[Lillian Zhang]

Yeah, like you said, it really wasn't about the money. Like as a kid it is very exciting that you have like free will to spend it how you like. But it's mostly to see and practice a lot of those habits when you are young. So by the time you get to your adulthood you have a sense of what's going on instead of having to start from scratch. And that was the case for me. I say when I was doing this whole Etsy business thing, I wasn't really thinking about the future that much, to be honest. Like I had some pocket cash that was good in my childhood years and I would spend it on like stationery or certain shoes, like art supplies I wanted that were more high end things like that. And by the time I got to university I had just like a deeper understanding and appreciation of what it takes to manage your finances properly and having more clarity as I went through internships and like starting my full time career after university. And so that's been my journey so far with that.

[Joel]

Do you think personal finance is different for Gen Z than it is for previous generations? There's so much talk about generational Differences. And I'm just curious to know your take. Personally, I don't know is person. How different is personal finance for Gen Z than it is for Millennials or Gen Xers?

[Lillian Zhang]

I think the foundational principles and the tactical strategies are actually quite very similar. I'd say some of the main differences are, of course, technology. So with so much information that's floating around, I see people and peers typically fall into two buckets. The first bucket is that there's so much information available that it's easier than ever to get started early to open accounts when you are at a younger age and having to go to a bank physically, that's the first group of people and that's what I personally identified with that it was easier to get into it. And the other subgroup of people that I find for my generation is that because there is so much information out there, people feel very overwhelmed and don't know where to start. And they just don't start altogether because it's just too much. And personally, for me, I realized this problem really early on. And that's why I strive to provide clarity for my audience who is watching and especially the book that I wrote to help condense a lot of that knowledge so people know there is one place to look instead of being more overwhelmed. So that's how I think it kind of fits in here when we're talking.

[Joel]

About the generational divides. Like every young generation gets labeled as bad with money. I remember as a millennial coming out of college and it was like Millennials are idiots and they're never gonna live up to their parents example and they're never going to be okay with money. They just don't know what they're doing. And it's interesting. I feel like I started to see those headlines about Gen Z too, but I'm seeing a lot different. Sort of. It seems like from what I can tell, that Gen Zers are quite intent to learn about money. Then some of the statistics bear this out too, right? They're investing at an earlier age and talking about money seems less taboo. Why do you think Gen Z seems to be a little more open about money? Or maybe at least just the headline writers and the people who are writing those news stories aren't antagonistic towards Gen.

[Lillian Zhang]

Z. I think Gen Z are more open to different perspectives and sharing what's going on with their personal lives as well as their financial lives. And it's mostly because of the rise of social media. Like on TikTok, it's so casual to see someone just talking about how much debt they have and how they're planning to pay that off. And people really like to see the journey of going from one place to a different and more developed version of themselves. I think that is really interesting and you brought up a good point that there are news articles coming out with how millennials were painted a certain picture. I think Gen Z, they feel a sort of different pressure in terms of like, like you said, Gen Z is investing more. There's a trend that more people are learning about it, which is really good. But the main issue that I personally see is because of how Covid had played out the job market with AI, generally how wages are not really keeping up and job growth in general. Even though a lot of Gen Zers are intent to learning these things, a lot of the economic factors and just how the way the world works now makes it harder for people like me to get ahead versus Gen X or earlier generations where you can get by on one income and still live really comfortably. I think it's just harder. The means are more difficult now.

[Joel]

Yeah, no, I think you're right. I think it is just like we get and I want to get into this later, buying a house. It is a different paradigm than it was in 2010 and it's different than it was in the 1970s. And so it's. That is a hurdle for sure that Gen Z faces that other generations did not face in the same degree. The same thing is true, the cost of college. So I want to get into those specific topics in just a little bit. Let's talk about investing though. There's. I love that Gen Z is more interested in investing and I think some of the, you know, the apps to make it easier to invest at your fingertips, the Robinhoods of this world have certainly incited some of that excitement. But there's also a downside to more investing interest. Right. And that is pursuing riskier strategies. And I think we've also seen Gen Z do that, partake in some really risky investing endeavors. So how do you think about teaching the next generation about investing and how do you. Yeah, what's your take on maybe some of the investing, the ways that they're. They're going about investing.

[Lillian Zhang]

Personally, for me, I am a lot more risk averse, I'd say, than the average Gen Z. Most of my portfolio is in broad market ETFs and I have some tech stocks that are like singular stocks from like the company I work at as well as some other ones. But I personally don't really partake of much in like, you know, like options, day trading, not even that much crypto to be honest. And I'd say that is something for Gen Zers to recognize. I think a lot of my peers are seeking short term gains like get rich quick or get rich tomorrow. I see that trend a lot. But I think we tend to forget to zoom out for the bigger picture to understand why you're investing in the first place. And for a lot of people, especially if you're more forward looking in terms of your future, it's less about short term gains for tomorrow, but more about how you can build sustainable wealth over time and letting that give you more options and freedom later on. Because when you really come down to it, money is just a way to enjoy your life and to provide for the life that you want to live. And so that's my personal philosophy and just encouraging more people to think long term rather than quick wins.

[Joel]

Do you think that's maybe where the disconnect is sometimes for Gen Z it could be the lack of personal finance education, but it can also be the lack of clarity, I guess for why they're investing. And it feels like maybe the sort of YOLO mentality rules the day when where hey, I see other people getting rich. Somebody else invested in Nvidia last year or Bitcoin five years ago. I've got to find another way to make bank quickly or I'm behind my peers. Is it that sort of, is that part of maybe the reason for some of the riskier investing habits that Gen Z is espousing and they're maybe not as onboard the train of the get rich slowly bandwagon that maybe you and I would be on.

[Lillian Zhang]

Oh yes, of course. The media definitely influences the way we think about our investing decisions. Like I remember several years ago with like, like dogecoin and AMC where some of the top headlines, I remember the Pump and Dumps. I think it's a lot of fomo. Like if you get in at this time you will get this result which tends to be what is getting played out on the media and on, you know, social media. Everyone's sharing their own perspectives and there are a lot of people sharing how maybe they made X amount of money through X investment and you should get in right now so you can also benefit. But a lot of the times those are typically things that when people promote them, the only person that really benefits are the people who are promoting them because they got in early. Right. By the time you see it, it's probably already over. So I think it's just a lot of FOMO and things like that and just not having clarity like you said, not knowing your reason or why. It could also be due to like age naturally. Like if you're in your early 20s, you're probably not thinking about what your life looks like at age, I don't know, like 50 or beyond. And so it's just like lack of goal setting and clarity, which is what I'm trying to help promote to more of my peers.

[Joel]

Yeah, it's almost like we understand, we know in some part of remote part of our bodies or brain that we will someday be old, but it's really hard to envision and so it's hard to empathize with our future self and save and invest with that long term reality in mind. I've got more, a lot more I want to get to with you, Lillian. Including like, hey, what, what are the old money rules? Why do we need to ditch them? And what are the new money rules we need to put in their place? We'll get to more with Lillian right after this.

[Matt]

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[Matt]

It makes me think you mentioned kids, Joel. I might be done having kids at this point, but my friends, my neighbors, they aren't. I've got family members who have a a fresh baby at home as well and it is such an amazing season of life. But those changes should also bring about a reassessment of whether or not you've got your estate planning ducks all in a row. Trust and Will makes it simple and straightforward. Their easy to use website is simple to navigate and plus all your information all Your documents, they are securely stored with bank level encryption.

[Joel]

Add some peace of mind to your future with trust and will go to trustandwill.com howtomoney for 20% off. That's 20% [e-mail] howtomoney all right, we're back from the break. Still talking with Lillian Zhang, talking about Gen Z's perception of finances and the reality of the money issues they have to face these days that are different. Right. Than prior generations. Some things are evergreen, some things remain the same. Some things are very macroeconomic based. And I want to get into some of that stuff with you, Lillian. We briefly touched on, like, some of the economic pessimism I think, that exists among young adults. Do you see that as, like, realistic? Hey, there's this. Things aren't as good as they used to be. Think I don't have it like my grandparents had it? Or do you think that sort of mindset is limiting maybe their ability to build their future?

[Lillian Zhang]

Yeah, I've seen several sides to this. So like you said, because previous generations have had it a lot more, I guess, to put it simply, than Gen Z facing right now, I think a lot of people fall into, I'd say a YOLO mindset where it's like, oh, like this seems impossible or I'll never be able to get to where I envisioned my life to be. So I'm just not gonna think about the future. I'm just gonna save. I mean, I'm just gonna spend and enjoy my life today. That's what I tend to see a lot. And then there is another group of people who I think this is where I more fall into myself, where it's like, oh, I know I have to, you know, work harder. But also planning, if you start planning early and educating yourself early on how financial literacy works and how you can shape your future into something that is more attainable for yourself, then you can put together a plan and figure out what are the steps I need to take or prioritize to set myself up for a future where a lot of these things could be possible in the next few years, five or ten years down the line.

[Joel]

So do you think some of the YOLO people you run into, it's not that they're not investing or planning because they don't have the resources? I know that is obviously true for many Americans, but would you say it's more true that or. Yeah. From your perspective, are you encountering people who could make the same decisions that you make or that you encourage other people to make, but they're just, they have a different mentality and they don't necessarily, they're not thinking along those long term lines.

[Lillian Zhang]

Oh yeah. I know plenty of high earners in my peer group that have the means to plan for the future, but they're just not prioritizing it because they want to live in the now, which is also valid. You want to enjoy yourself now and plan for the future. But I think a lot of people miss the future part.

[Joel]

Yeah, I think you're right. And I think it makes sense. Like it's easier to, to be like, the future will take care of itself. I can think about that later. Especially, especially when you're in your 20s. So many people really do. It's at 40 when people start to think about investing and they're like, I guess I should start saving for retirement. But by then, as you know, they've missed out on a decade and a half or more of compounding returns. And so by the time, Lillian, you hit age 40, you're going to be well on your way. You might not even have to invest another dollar for the rest of your life. That goes to some of the coast fire you talk about. Right. Whereas they have to get started and they have to work double time in order to make that happen.

[Lillian Zhang]

Yeah. I think it's really interesting. I've seen several stories around this where you either work really hard when you're young or you work even harder when you're older.

[Joel]

Choose your pain. Right. Choose your pain. So Charlie Munger. Who? The late Charlie Munger, business partner of Warren Buffett. He used to say that the first hundred thousand dollars is the hardest to get. You already have your first hundred K stashed away. What did you do? And how do you suggest other young people attack that goal of trying to get that first six figure nest egg invested and set aside?

[Lillian Zhang]

Yeah. I think this is a very nuanced question because it doesn't acknowledge that people come from different backgrounds or certain set of privileges that you may have if you come into saving for this goal. And I have to be very cognizant about how I phrase this because I personally, as like a disclaimer, didn't graduate with any student loans. So I started out as like net zero, which is, I think more rare in today's economy.

[Joel]

Sure.

[Lillian Zhang]

I want to just preface that because I think it's something that not all people acknowledge is like their inherent privileges when they come into this journey and everyone is different. So don't feel behind if someone is doing something because you're always on your own journey. I'd say yeah. In terms of my own personal journey, I mostly, I'm a big saver. So like I mentioned in my previous spiel, my money mindset came a lot down to savings and, like, spending little as money as possible when I was younger. So I did a lot of that. Like the internship money that I made from my internships during college, I tried to save as much of it as I could. I had like a Roth IRA that I opened in college. So I started contributing to that when I was making a decent income from my internship money.

[Joel]

So not only was the internship, by the way, getting you experience so you could get an awesome job when you graduated, but you're also making money funneling that money into a Roth ira. And gosh, think about money that's tossed into a Roth in your late teens or early 20s while you're in college and what that's going to be worth. You know, money that will never be taxed again when you reach that, you know, 50 age of 59 and a half.

[Lillian Zhang]

Oh, of course. It's so powerful. And I think it's always great to get started early. Even if you don't think that this money is a significant sum, it still adds up over time. You'd be surprised how much it grows over time, for sure.

[Joel]

I know I was looking at. And it's one of those things that you get told, but it's really hard for it to actually, like, compute in your brain when you're in your 20s. Because I know it was hard for me. I was like, because of the job I was in, I was hearing it all day, every day, like, this is the power of compounding returns. And I was like, cool, I guess I'll do it. Even though I don't really know what this is going to look like fleshed out. But once you get. Once you've been investing for 20 years, then you really see the power of compounding returns. You're looking at it in the face, but until then, it's just a mental exercise. And when you actually see your returns outpacing your contributions, that's when you're like, oh, this is what they were talking about. And the light, the light went off earlier, like, or went on earlier, but it feels like it's amplified, you know, 20x once you're actually seeing it as you log into your account.

[Lillian Zhang]

Oh, yes, for sure. I save only, like five years out from my first started investing. Even within like five years, I've already seen a lot more growth than what I imagined it would to look like.

[Joel]

Yeah. Which is just can accelerate, I think the process because that gets gets you excited about continuing to max those accounts out and continuing to grow wealth. So you said that you graduated with no student loan debt. When you're speaking to younger gen zers, do you warn them about the downsides of taking on too much student loan debt? How do you help young people? Because it seems like the perception of a college degree has soured at least a little bit in our country. And I think the main reason isn't because people think college is a waste of time. I think they think it costs too much money. So how do you help young people think about that trade off of expensive education and degree that can help you make more versus taking another path?

[Lillian Zhang]

Yeah, that's a really interesting question because it's a really big problem in our country. And I think the caveat is that a lot of 18 year olds are signing loan papers in which they have no idea what the terms mean or what it actually means in terms of consequences. When they sign that at your ripe age of like 16, 17, 18, which is honestly a little crazy if you think about it. And something that I really encourage people to think about is to work backwards in the sense of think about even if you don't know what you want to do exactly. Perhaps choose or center on like a field that you can do research on in terms of something that you could be interested in pursuing after college and working backwards to see like what those careers pay on average. And there are a lot of resources nationwide and on the federal website that shows like a breakdown of like the average pay for specific roles and doing the math on how much money you have to earn per year to pay off x amount of debt that you're taking on. And so it's really down to just like numbers and math. Because what I see really often that comes up on social media, on the news is people take on like six figures or a really large sum of student loan debt and then they realize the career that they're in won't be sufficient to help pay out that debt in a reasonable time frame. That's the biggest caveat.

[Joel]

What would you say to someone who says, but I really like want to be an artist or like there are some careers that are just an engineer of some type is easier to assess what the salary is going to be. But even when I graduated, podcasting didn't exist. I knew I wanted to work in long form audio. But like it's really hard to know Sometimes what your job is going to look like. So I guess from that standpoint, if someone's saying, like, but I really want to pursue this thing, and it's. It's incredibly difficult to know exactly what direction it's going to take me, but I'm compelled to start to take this course of study. How do you help them maybe think about how much debt they should be willing to take on?

[Lillian Zhang]

It's not a black and white picture. Like, you don't have to give up your passion to do something else and vice versa. And I am more of, like, a very logical and practical person. So if I were in, like, the shoes of someone who was conflicted about what field to go into, I would personally major in something that is more broad and that can apply to different fields, and then minor in something that is more concentrated or focused on your particular passion areas. So you have the best of both worlds where you can use your degree for more, like, a broader economic thing, and then your passion falls into it, and you can always pursue different passions, like, even outside of your course of study. Like, for example, my whole Etsy Shop thing, I also really liked art. I actually also thought about art school for a while, and I decided against that. But that's like a whole, like, personal conversation. But it was definitely more.

[Joel]

But I'm sure you were filtering through a bunch of those things. The cost of school. What am I gonna get paid? I like art. Can I still do art from a personal perspective that's fulfilling without making it my day job? I mean, those are all important questions, right? Were you wrestling with stuff like that?

[Lillian Zhang]

Oh, yeah, definitely. I think when I was in high school, I was more tunnel vision. I was more stubborn. I'm like, o, I really want to do this. But then I realized, like, when you're working, if you're working on your passion, it could feel like a job eventually because you have to do that as your career or the means to sustain yourself and your family. And something that I think was really interesting for me is because I like more of the artistic side of things. I pursued things like marketing or content creation where it made sense very practically, but also allow me to use and flex more of those creative muscles in my brain in a way in which work feels more like play now.

[Joel]

Yeah.

[Lillian Zhang]

So kind of like integrating your passion into your work, not directly pursuing your passion, is what I would personally steer my peers towards.

[Joel]

A lot of wisdom in there, Lillian. I like that. So your book, the New Money Rules, like, when you're talking about the you're kind of talking about the old way of doing things versus the new way of doing things in different categories. And the one about budgeting was interesting and you talk about loud budgeting and you hinted at this earlier when we were talking about kind of social media. What are the perks of loud budgeting? And I don't know what, what are the new rules of budgeting versus the old ones?

[Lillian Zhang]

Yeah. So in terms of loud budgeting trend, for context, this was a really popular TikTok trend in like late 2023 and early 2024 when there was like a whole like de influencing era on TikTok. Like basically the premise of loud budgeting is sort of like sharing your goals with your friends or your peers or in this case TikTok with an audience of strangers, like what your financial goals are like, your debt payoff goals, your spending goals, savings goals, etc. So it was just more of like a really fun and open conversation about how people approach spending their money and how that can inspire you to also create create more of a plan or set more goals and intentions with your spending. And I think for Gen Z it can come across as like a quote restrictive topic. Like budgeting is not the most fun word to think about because it feels like, oh, I have to put guardrails down on how to spend my money or put restrictions on myself.

[Joel]

I hated that word for so long.

[Lillian Zhang]

I know exactly. It feels like dread and people don't really want to think about that. But my whole premise in the book, and that I mentioned directly too is I like the idea of feeling more empowered and having clarity on where I'm spending on. Am I spending on things that bring me value and joy, or do I open my credit card statement one day and not even remember what I spent the money on? That's the biggest thing for me personally and that I share with my audience too. Tracking your expenses, your income, and just having a general plan of how you want to spend your funds is just a great way to have more clarity on your spending, seeing if your values align with how you're managing your money, and just having more confidence for future planning. Especially since money is such a big part of our everyday lives, even though we don't really want to discuss or think about it.

[Joel]

But on the career side of things, when I think about my parents generation, they had a couple of jobs and I feel like even their parents had one, maybe two jobs like over the course of their career. It seems like based on predictions, the Gen Z folks are going to be well, they already are far more likely to job hop. But then some estimates say that they're going to have like 16 or 17 jobs and maybe like five or more careers, which is kind of hard to fathom. And the job market seems like it's moving quicker than ever in various directions and it's kind of hard to know where you're going to be five or ten years from now. And there probably will be similar to the podcasting thing, there will be new career opportunities that open up that didn't exist before. How do you help Gen Z, or what is your advice to Gen Z? To help them navigate this, this kind of more fluid job market that we're experiencing.

[Lillian Zhang]

Yeah, so there's been an interesting term that's been floating around, I think quite recently. It's called, the concept is called the portfolio career in which your career is not defined by one job or necessarily even one industry, but how your skills can be spread across different types of industries to create a career that's not just like one particular job. In that case, that's something I think like Gen X and previous generations have been more clear cut. They just have one job and they're like good. But I think Gen Z is more creative and they like to find different ways to exercise their skills and to monetize different hobbies or passions to create more opportunities for themselves and to provide for the people they care about around them.

[Joel]

So those skills and abilities are going to be put to use in a bunch of different ways throughout their career. So focus more on the skill building and less on this specific path that's set before me. I'm going to walk down it.

[Lillian Zhang]

Yes, especially with the Internet and the media and just a lot of other opportunities. Depending on what field you're in, if your skills are flexible across different types of work, then you're not confined to one thing, especially within the job world. Layoffs are more common these days. And so that's something that I've been watching a lot in terms of how that affects my own personal planning as well as some of my peers that I see. They're not putting all their eggs in one basket, especially in today's economic environment and how there are more opportunities to do more types of career moves than it was when there was less than technology available to be more flexible with these things.

[Joel]

Which makes me think now about side hustles for small businesses. And yeah, one I think usually prioritizes quick income, the other is a more long term approach. And it seems like you're taking the build a small side business approach that could eventually eclipse my day job. How do you And I just think that there's just a limited upside in most side hustles. Unless you are perpetually willing to trade time for money and that can work for a season, it's hard to make it work for a decade. How do you thread that needle of like building something on the side versus pouring more into your day job versus side hustling?

[Lillian Zhang]

So like you mentioned, there are two main types of side hustles. The first one is trading your time for money. So this include things like Ubers, doordash, babysitting, dog walking. Very common I guess like side gigs amongst the communities today where if you need the money right away and you have extra time, you can do things to get extra cash. But those skills and those experiences won't compound on top of each other unless you make it into a business in which your inputs and your skills will compound over time. Personally, I've never done. Well, I've done a few of the first examples like tutoring and teaching people and I think that was great. When I was in college when I didn't have that much experience, I was still building up my skills. Teaching was a skill that I was interested in developing as a college student. When I got into my full time career, that is actually my main priority in terms of like my day job and just making sure that I'm like continuously learning new skills and growing in that aspect. But also my other side business is my whole like content creation media portion of it where I'm using the skills in marketing. In my day job I work in marketing and funneling that skill into a different entity and so I can apply those skills to something that can grow over time and is not limited by like trading your time for a specific hustle. Like I mentioned in the first hustle category.

[Joel]

What would you say to a Gen Z follower of yours who wants to buy a house but feels like it's impossible? Is buying a house still like part of the American dream? Is it still a necessity to feel like you've made it in the United States of America or, or I don't know, should we just be content to rent because it's so much cheaper than buying, especially in almost everywhere in the country.

[Lillian Zhang]

So one of the old rules that I mentioned in the book actually is that previous generations, I hear this from my parents all the time. It's like you must buy a house right away or else something bad will happen or you're not investing your money wisely. If you don't buy a house right now. That's like an old rule, I'd say, because a lot of Gen Z, we don't really relate to that anymore. Especially like you said, like high housing prices. It's just much more difficult. Especially I'm looking at like Bay Area, San Francisco. It's just like insane how much housing prices grew just in the past five years.

[Joel]

Yeah.

[Lillian Zhang]

And the idea of owning a house as a single person is a lot more daunting. And I think for a lot of us, including myself, we are okay and content with renting and that it's not the end of the world. There are other means to build wealth while you are in that stage of building your career or trying to figure things out. But I'd also say I think I'm also seeing a really interesting trend. And I think this was also more apparent five years ago too. It's like the whole idea of like digital nomading and not being tied down in one place, that seems like a lifestyle that a lot of people are interested in. But I think you just have to adjust your expectations. Like you either have to be willing to put in a lot of effort and planning and work, or adjust your expectations where you're okay with less. I think that's like the two main solutions that a lot of people end up having to choose between.

[Joel]

I like that. Adjust your expectations if you don't want to put in the work to get there. If your expectations are adjusted downward, you'll be a little bit less disappointed, I think, when you don't buy that house at the appointed time that you assumed you should. All right, I've got just a few more questions I want to get to with you, Lillian, including how you think about financial freedom today as a 25 year old. We get to that and more right after this.

[Matt]

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[Joel]

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[Matt]

That's right, hire right the first time. Post your job for [e-mail] howtomoney then promote it to use LinkedIn jobs new AI assistant, making it easier and faster to find top candidates. That's LinkedIn.com howtomoney to post your job for free. Terms and conditions apply. Man, this is always the busiest time of the year. Yes, it is my favorite time of year. I love it. But the calendar gets pretty full between travel, trying to think of the best Christmas gifts, hosting friends and family. It can be really easy to lose sight of your financial goals because your spending is a bit out of control. If you want to keep your finances under control this holiday season, you need to be using Monarch, rated Wall Street Journal's Best Budgeting App of 2025. Monarch is the all in one personal finance tool that brings your entire financial life together in one clean interface on your laptop or on your phone. And right now, just for how to money listeners, monarch is offering 50% off your first year.

[Joel]

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[Matt]

Don't let financial opportunity slip through the Cracks. Use code howtomoneyonarch.com in your browser for half off your first year. That's 50% off your first year at monarch.com with code how to Money Hey y', all, it's Joel and Matt from how to Money. Joel, you were just out in Seattle recently, weren't you?

[Joel]

Yeah man, it was amazing. I went for one of the most glorious runs of my life along the waterfront. It had everything you could ask for. Crisp air, mountain views, fairies gliding across the water. Beautiful.

[Matt]

I love it man. Yeah, for us, our road trip through.

[Joel]

Charlottesville was a highlight.

[Matt]

We actually splurged on a custom built Airbnb and it was well worth it. The house had these unique touches, like a poured concrete counter there in the kitchen with a built in drying rack. Super functional. It even inspired some ideas for our house.

[Joel]

Plus, with a kitchen like that, you save money eating out.

[Matt]

Yes, exactly. That's what struck me. What seems normal to a homeowner. It can be the thing that makes a guest trip really special.

[Joel]

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[Matt]

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[Joel]

All right, we're back, still talking with Lillian Zhang, talking about the new money rules for Gen Z. And I just, I just love this conversation. I like that we're discussing how Gen Z's perception, I guess really of financial freedom, of what it looks like to be successful in this country, has really changed and morphed from the way prior generations see it. And in many ways I feel like I'm somewhere in the middle where I totally see some of those skewed expectations in a good way. Like, yeah, the old way of doing it is a little cliche and I want to create my own definition of success. And I feel like Gen Z is taking that to another level. And I think it's really, it's really neat and interesting to see. I'm curious, Lillian, how do you define financial freedom for yourself today? And how has that definition evolved, specifically over the past six or seven years that you've really been engaging in the personal finance space to the level you have?

[Lillian Zhang]

Oh, yeah, I definitely think it's evolved quite a bit. When I was first starting out versus now, and I'd say when I was first starting out, I really didn't have much confidence in terms of my abilities per se to I guess, make it in today's world in terms of it was just very uncertain. I didn't know what my career would look like. I just didn't know what my future was going to hold. And so I had this very scarcity mindset of like, oh, I must save as much as I can. And just like that's my one and only goal. And so I think that was a double edged sword because I was a very anxious young adult trying to manage my own expectations and what I think the world wanted from me and that was one side, but the other side is that it really gave me the foundation of just getting my ducks in a row and learning everything very early and very quickly. And so by the time now, it's been a couple of years since I've first got into this journey more passionately, per se. And now I've built up a foundation where it's like, okay, I see where all my prep work leading up to this point has helped me in my financial journey. And one of my main goals going forward is just being able to enjoy the present as well as the future. I feel like when I was first starting out, I was very focused on, I guess, like, money as the main end goal. But as time goes on, I realized, like, money is just a means to live your life to the way that you desire or expect, and that the object of money itself is not the reason why we're doing all these things. Money is not the reason for doing all of these things at the very end of the day. And so that's kind of how my psychology around this has expanded or matured over the last couple of years. And I'm gaining a lot more clarity about myself and what I hope my future will look like. And, you know, just be able to provide and protect the people around me is also very important to me as well.

[Joel]

You mentioned a scarcity mindset. I'm curious to hear, like, how it sounds like it was beneficial in some ways, but limiting also. So how do you get past that if you feel like you're butting up against that scarcity mindset? I feel like that, that kind of. That can create people who are perpetually frugal and unable to, which can be a great thing, but it can be unable then to really think about the bigger level levers that you can pull in terms of wealth building, business building. Like, it can be so easy to let that scarcity mindset be a low ceiling that keeps you capped in what you're able to accomplish.

[Lillian Zhang]

Of course. So when I was first starting out this journey, a lot of my anxieties came from having a very specified, I guess, like, income that I was working with and being like, oh, like, this is all I have. Like, I must, you know, save as much as possible from this, you know, one source. But then as I was mentioning earlier with the whole, like, side hustle, slash, business stuff, as I was gaining more experience in my media side of the business I was working on, I began to open my eyes more as opportunities just kind of like, started to fall into my lap. In a way, as I like put my skills, I put myself out there more. I just started like seeing stuff kind of like flow, flow in my direction and that's like kind of like exposure therapy where it's like the more things you try and the more things you are open to like try doing. It's like for me, the light bulb moment was when some of my first like advertisers reached out to me. I was like, oh, like I was just being myself on this platform and people are asking me for opportunities, which was really mind blowing to me when I was like a 22 year old, 21 year old college student. And that just opened my mind up that opportunities can come to you because at the end of the day, money is just an exchange of value, of perceived value that others find in yourself and your skills. And that's where the switch happened for me.

[Joel]

I love that. I love that. Okay, so you're 25, you've already made a lot of financial progress. Medium term, long term financial goals. Like what's on your horizon?

[Lillian Zhang]

Definitely, I'd say owning real estate at some point is a. I'd say medium to long term goal. After that, I'd say most of my lifestyle expenses are relatively regular, so I don't really upgrade my lifestyle in terms of that much. But I would love to be able to just spend more on certain travel experiences, like certain business class flights one day without having to think about it. That would be a really awesome goal in the future, but we'll see. And I also love to keep expanding my businesses in the future as well, which I would consider a financial goal in a way.

[Joel]

Yeah. Okay, last question. What's one small money move that somebody who's listening can make this week that will matter 10 years from now? Because again, we're trying to make that. What's that connection between the thing I can do now to future me that's like, it's hard to draw that line sometimes. What would you tell somebody if it was like one thing you can do right now?

[Lillian Zhang]

Yeah, I'd say something that has helped me and a lot of my friends is automating your savings and paying yourself first. So in a way, for example, if you're getting a direct deposit, have some of that money be routed to your savings account, high yield savings account automatically, because that immediately allows you put funds away for your future self or investing that money into a brokerage, if that is something that you are doing, and having less incentive to spend whatever you see in your checking account. Because I know with Social media impulse buying, that is a really big thing a lot of people my age are facing, so I'll definitely recommend the automation aspect.

[Joel]

All right, Lillian, I've really enjoyed our conversation. Thank you for joining me. Where can listeners find out more about you and about your brand new book?

[Lillian Zhang]

So my brand new book, the New Money Rules, has been published in November, so it's recently out. You can find it everywhere. Books are sold and you can find me on Instagram, TikTok, LinkedIn, YouTube, any place. My name is Lillian Zhang, and so you can find me there.

[Joel]

Lovely, Lillian. Thank you again so much. I appreciate it.

[Lillian Zhang]

Thank you, Joel.

[Joel]

All right. That was such a fun conversation with Lillian. I'm excited for other people to read her book, and in particular, young people. And so if you know of a gen zer who needs practical money advice, but that's targeted specifically towards them, I think Lillian's book is a great place to start. Especially, like, with the holidays coming up. You're like, oh, man, most people don't want to receive a personal finance book, but they definitely don't want to receive one from a boomer that was written 20 years ago. So this is probably a better option if you're trying to give the gift of a personal finance book. But I think there were, I mean, there were so many things that are worth highlighting from this conversation. I loved when Lillian talked about having money as a kid. And it gives you that ability to practice, right? To see how you get money into your life and then to practice using it. I think that's really, that's really important. And, you know, I feel like on the podcast, we typically talk smack about social media. We use it in very, you know, austere ways. In particular, the how to Money Facebook group. That's the place I'm most keen to engage. And I love seeing people ask questions and help each other. But for the most part, I think of social media as a negative in the vast majority of our lives, as a time suck, and as something that can just push us towards envy. There's just a lot of downsides from using social media regularly. But one of the things Lillian said was that social media media makes it easier to be open. And I do think from that standpoint, when she's talking about the loud budgeting phenomena and how that has been a really good thing where people are able to say out loud, hey, these are things I'm struggling with, or, hey, here's what I'm trying to accomplish. And it adds that level of accountability when you're vocally open when you're putting your face out there and your desires and your hopes out there. There is something that happens inside of you when you say it out loud to everyone you know and even people you don't know that can, I think, make it more likely that you're going to achieve those goals. So maybe, just maybe, that's a positive of social media. I wasn't expecting to walk away from this conversation with just, I mean, so many things. Even that last thing when we talked about exposure therapy and she said the more things you try, the more you're going to find out about yourself and developing those skills that are going to translate across the spectrum when it comes to your job. I think it's good advice for Gen Z in particular as you're building up your human capital, but it's great advice for all of us people of all ages to never stop learning and to make sure that you're not just building a career with a company, but that you're building yourself as a human so that you have more opportunity and the ability to use those interests and the abilities you've gained over time, that those would translate into jobs with many employers in different industries that you would be more than happy to work in. It makes you more valuable. That means that you can pivot in a way that maybe most people wouldn't consider, especially in a slightly weird job economy. I think that's great advice. So all right, hope this episode was helpful. As always, thank you for listening. You can find links to Lillian's book and some of her socials up on our [e-mail] until next time. Best friend out.

[Matt]

This time of year, it's got me thinking about presents I've received over the years.

[Joel]

Joel.

[Matt]

Specifically, I'm thinking of one family member in particular would often get me these overly grown up gifts when I was in high school. Like for instance, a super high quality socket wrench set or like a really nice stereo. Now at the time I thought it was silly, a bit unnecessary. But here's the thing. I still have and I still use those gifts today. They have endured. Similarly, policygenius can help you give your family a gift that could last a lifetime. Security Man.

[Joel]

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[Matt]

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[Lillian Zhang]

This is an iHeart podcast. Guaranteed Human.