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- [00:00]
Joel
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- [01:06]
Madeline Mann
AI is rewriting the business playbook with productivity boosts and faster decision making coming into every industry. If you're not thinking about AI, you can bet your competition is this is not where you want to drop the ball. But AI requires a lot of compute power and with most cloud platforms, the cost for your AI workloads can spiral. That is, unless you're running on oci. Oracle Cloud Infrastructure this was the cloud built for AI, a blazing, fast enterprise grade platform for your infrastructure, database, apps and all your AI workloads. OCI costs 50% less than other major hyperscalers for compute, 70% less for storage and 80% less for networking. Thousands of businesses have already scored with oci, including Vodafone, Thomson Reuters and Suno AI. Now the ball's in your court. Right now, Oracle can cut your current cloud bill in half if you move to OCI Minimum Financial Commitment. Commitment and other terms apply. Offer ends March 31st. See if your company qualifies for this Special offer@oracle.com strategic that's oracle.com strategic welcome.
- [02:07]
Joel
To how to Money. I'm Joel. I'm Matt and today we're talking getting the job you want with Madeline.
- [02:32]
Matt
Yeah, so Madeline Mann is an HR and recruiting leader. She's the author of Reverse the Search and she spun her insider knowledge of the hiring process into an award winning career coaching empire called Self Made Millennial, where she has reached a ton of folks. And by the way, her book Reverse the Search, it comes out next week, April 1, so keep an eye out for that. Through her platform and coaching, Madeline works to turn job seekers into job shoppers, enabling any professional out there to land high paying job offers with many of them even landing roles at competitive Fortune 500 companies. Basically, it seems like we've been doing job hunting all wrong and we're going to talk about that today. She's been featured over in the Journal, the Times, ABC News. She's got over 24 million views on YouTube and we are excited for her to now join us on our humble little podcast. Madeline Mann, thank you for joining us.
- [03:24]
Madeline Mann
Hi, Matt and Joel. So good to be here.
- [03:27]
Joel
We're excited to have you, Madeline. So much to talk about specifically in regards to finding a great job and hopefully making it easier than most people tend to make it. But our first question to everyone who comes on the show is what do you like to splurge on? Matt and I splurge on nice craft beer. But hey, it's okay because we're doing the right thing. We're saving and investing for our future. What is your splurge?
- [03:49]
Madeline Mann
I'm not one who likes to splurge, but one thing that I've done that I think people find kind of ritzy or something that almost no one does is I have a stylist pick out nearly all of my clothes.
- [04:04]
Joel
That does sound fancy.
- [04:05]
Matt
That does. Yeah. That's not something I've ever done.
- [04:08]
Madeline Mann
Yeah. I'm someone who loves color. I don't have a black shirt in my closet and I would always buy clothes and I could never wear any of them because none of them matched or I just was bad at picking out things that looked good on me. And so I invested in a stylist and now I actually spend less money on clothes and all that because they're everything matches, everything looks good on me. I like everything. So I keep it longer, I wear it more. So it's, it's, in the end, I do think it was, it's a very good investment where I'm saving money. But yes, it is a little bit. I, A little bougie. I thought. Yeah, it's bougie. I thought a little silly because it's like people wake up every day and just dress themselves. Why can't I do that? But I can't.
- [04:53]
Joel
I appreciate that you're the opposite of Steve Jobs that you. I too, I think the sort of Black turtleneck on repeat gets a little boring. Like, there's, like, I don't know, jazz it up a little. But I'm curious. What does it look like to have your own stylist? Is this, like, an online relationship? Are they emailing you? Hey, these are the fits. The specific outfits I would recommend that you dress in. Are they, like, buying it and shipping it to you? What are the details?
- [05:16]
Madeline Mann
There's Right. So she is remote. And, yeah, she did a full analysis based on photos of, like, what. What are the best looks for my body and all of that and the color palettes where every color will go together. And yep, as she just sends me all the links of, hey, here are all the things you should buy, and here's the sizing of everything you should buy. And I just buy it myself.
- [05:38]
Matt
Super cool. Have you heard of these companies that exist that where you get your colors done? They, like, put colors in front of your face or whatever?
- [05:45]
Joel
Yes.
- [05:46]
Matt
So it.
- [05:46]
Madeline Mann
Yes.
- [05:47]
Matt
Is this a part of, like, what it is a stylist does as well? So is this. This is something you believe in?
- [05:51]
Madeline Mann
Yes, she did that. She did that whole thing, except we did it remotely with photos and all that. She's in Ireland.
- [05:57]
Joel
So is that just about what colors look best on you? Is that what. Is that what that is?
- [06:00]
Madeline Mann
Yeah. Yeah.
- [06:01]
Joel
Okay.
- [06:01]
Madeline Mann
Exactly.
- [06:02]
Matt
All right, so Joel just needs to wear more blue to make his eyes pop. Maybe that's what we need to do here.
- [06:08]
Joel
I know. I think I need to consult a professional. Matt.
- [06:10]
Matt
No, no, no. I'm good enough. Joel, I got this. You're free at least. Madeline, why do you prefer the term job shopping? I've noticed that. Right. Like, so instead of, like, job hunting, job seeking, you like to use the term job shopping. Why is that the one that you often like to use the most?
- [06:26]
Madeline Mann
Because so many people don't realize that the job search is not just one where we are beholden to employers, where we hope that they deign to give us attention. When I was working with clients and transforming their confidence and their job search approach, I realized that they started shopping around for opportunities. They started meeting different employers, and the majority of their interview opportunities did not come from them applying to these jobs and looking for these jobs. The majority came from these companies saying, hey, we found you. Please interview with us. It came inbound. And so once you start doing these strategies, you find yourself that, wow, it doesn't have to be this effortful hunt, but it can be more of a fun shopping experience where you're shopping for your Future, you're shopping for your next career move.
- [07:20]
Joel
Yeah, I had backyard chickens. A couple of them died. That's why I say had. But we'll get back to having more again in the future. I think of, like, when I watch them eat, they're kind of like pecking at the ground. And lots of times they come up with nothing or just dirt or something like that. And I think that's what it feels like as a job hunter sometimes, like, you're pecking aimlessly, and then you get.
- [07:38]
Matt
A mouthful of dirt, you're like, get some smarter chickens.
- [07:40]
Joel
I guess. So it's like, what a waste of my time. But, like, there are so many stats, Madeline, that reveal that a lot of American workers, in particular, they're kind of unhappy, right, with the status quo. And maybe their boss is saying, we're going to return to the office. You need to come back in a few days a week. And now they're even less happy. So in your experience, why is it that people tend to avoid shopping for jobs given how little satisfaction people seem to have with their jobs?
- [08:06]
Madeline Mann
Well, the thing that people hit their heads against the wall is, is that they worry that they're going to put themselves out in the job market, find their next role, and be just as unhappy there, or possibly even worse, at least where they are now, it's the devil they know.
- [08:22]
Joel
And it's like the grass is browner on the other side.
- [08:25]
Madeline Mann
Yes, yes. And what's actually sometimes worse is if you always think the grass is greener and you go about your job search the wrong way, and now you're hopping from terrible job to terrible job. And so what needs to be the beginning of all this is getting extremely clear about what is your next career step. I talk in the book about how I did a survey out to thousands and thousands of people in my audience, and the vast majority of people responded that the way that they chose their career was simply because they stumbled into it. And that is the way people are treating their careers. They are stumbling, stumbling through it. Arguably, the most important decision you could make because it impacts your finances, your emotion, your family life, all of it. And we are just choosing to not choose. And so that is one of the things that I talk a lot about with the job shopping strategy is let's take deliberate action to reevaluate what's your right next career step and not be intimidated by the fact that there might be a little bit of work to reconfigure your past experience or. Or, you know, fill in some skill Gaps. But put yourself on a trajectory that helps fulfill you, that meets your needs and values in that career path and also gets you paid.
- [09:44]
Matt
Well, I like that. Yeah, I like how you said it's going to take a little bit of work. Because there are some different myths that are held by folks who are looking for a job. And a lot of times folks do think it's easier just to aim lower, to not set their sights super high. Can you share some of the other myths that folks get hung up on?
- [10:03]
Madeline Mann
Absolutely right. You, you aiming lower, not a great move. People think that it's easier to land a job below your level. It's actually easier to land a job that's a bit higher than your level. Another myth that people fall victim to is they think that additional certifications and degrees will help them stand out. Which, you know, I mean, so many people are completely burdened by student loans and all these things, these false promises that these MBA programs give you that somehow you're going to go through this program and your career is going to transform. And that's what I'm seeing time and time again is not happening. Now, of course, get the education you need to check the box on your application that you have it. But I think the difference here is that people think that when they're struggling to stand out, that that will make them stand out. And it's not a way to stand out. It is a baseline qualification. It's really your relationships and your expertise that will help you to stand out.
- [11:11]
Joel
So those are a few myths. Talk to me about maybe some of the, what you might call the boomer advice or something like the old school advice on the job hunting front that maybe made sense like decades ago, but just doesn't make sense in today's job search market. Like what have you heard people say? And you just like cringe when you hear that advice.
- [11:35]
Madeline Mann
Oh my gosh. Well, the thing that you'll often hear from friends and family members if you're struggling your job search, they'll say just keep going, keep being consistent, keep applying. And you should absolutely continue putting effort into your job search. But if you are not trying a different approach, then you are, you're wasting your time. Really. Having a high volume job search is actually not the answer to landing more job offers. The book is full of these examples as well as just in general with my clients is that they'll focus on a handful of opportunities, fewer than 10, maybe, and they'll land interviews at most of them and then land offers at a handful of those and this is the approach that actually works. Because what's happened is that because anyone can apply to jobs these days, these job boards are completely overrun with noise, just absolute noise. And it's. Now the way to stand out is to be more focused, is to go one step above. And that's a big part of the job shopper strategy, is to. Instead of just blasting out your information out there and using all these dumb buzzwords. That is very. That we were all taught when we were writing our resumes of seasoned, professional, collaborative, creative, all those, those things. Moving away from that, getting highly practical, and making your Resume and your LinkedIn profile like sales pages instead of Wikipedia pages.
- [13:16]
Matt
It's fascinating because, like, when you do fill out an online application, like, it does feel like that you, you just highlighted how you're wasting your time essentially. But when you do that, it's something that you can check, like on your to do list. Right. Like that's something I can cross out. It feels like a productive endeavor, but then you don't actually hear back. And you have worked in hr. So like, can I guess, can you give us like a little peek behind the curtain as to what's going on? Is it truly. Because there just so many applicants out there and just the, in that case, the numbers aren't in your favor.
- [13:47]
Madeline Mann
Right. So some of these job boards will actually tell you how many people have applied to these roles. And you'll see within hours, there's often hundreds of applications and.
- [13:56]
Matt
Sounds demoralizing.
- [13:57]
Madeline Mann
Geez, yes, it's extremely demoralizing. And what's just as demoralizing in a lot of ways is if you were the employer, you look at the applications you've gotten and you can tell these people did not read the job description. They have no idea who your company is. They, they often, their qualifications aren't even remotely related to the role they're going for. So what's upsetting about that is that all of this noise is now burying the candidates who genuinely wanted the opportunity and are, are, are well qualified. So what does the employer do? They turn to smaller stacks. We'll call it like virtual stacks. Right. So a stack of people who, their employees have said, hey, I know this person. Check out their resume or the stack of resumes that a recruiter collected from finding people on LinkedIn or from their own database. So they go to these other stacks because that takes them much less time. It's much more time efficient. And so your goal in the job search is to get into one of those smaller stacks.
- [15:06]
Joel
Yeah. So the Resume gets you in the fat stack, they're just essentially casting into the garbage bin instead of getting you in the short stack where you're actually being considered in the book. You write that it's one thing to have the right skills, but having an excellent strategy to get noticed is what unlocks incredible opportunity. You just said a second ago, you said, make your Resume and your LinkedIn your sales page instead of a Wikipedia page. Can you kind of dial in on that, that a little bit more what that looks like and how you can stand out so that you can get noticed in, in some of those smaller stacks instead of like just being the habitual resume submitter.
- [15:44]
Madeline Mann
So what we were taught to do is to create our resume of our greatest accomplishments, right? Yeah, that, that was, that was how I was taught of write down all the coolest things you've done. And that is the way our resumes often show up. And it's called autobiography syndrome, where we are sharing our life story on our resumes and thinking that people want to see a chronicled, accurate picture of what we've done in the past. Companies don't actually want to know your, your background and your best accomplishments. What they do want to know is can you solve our problems? Can you achieve what we want? And what happens is I created a formula called the Glory formula, which is detailed in reverse to search. And what that formula does is that when you are building out your resume and LinkedIn profile, you don't start with your experience, you start with what the company's asking for. So imagine building out your entire LinkedIn profile, your entire resume, based on what a company's asking for, suddenly all of your experience shrinks because you know, even though I know that you're being a door to door salesman helped to cultivate your charisma and then that other job of, you know, working in customer success helped you be resilient, blah, blah, blah, right? You have all those things, but you're going for a project manager role. Like, tell me how you'd be a great project manager. Those are the things that we often get distracted about. So you need to start with the opportunity first. Build all of your assets back from that as if you are a product, you are a product, you are a someone selling your services. And too often we have this autobiography syndrome where we feel like we have to tell the tale of our past.
- [17:46]
Matt
So I mean, does that literally mean. So practically speaking, and you spend and you've got a lot of awesome resources on how to flesh out your LinkedIn profile. Does that Literally mean going in there and changing, tailoring, I guess, some of your experience to the position that you're looking to land. Even if it means kind of like, you know what, I used to highlight this sort of accomplishment, but instead I'm gonna, let's just tweak it a little bit using maybe the verbiage that my potential hopeful new employer that they're looking for. Is that what that looks like?
- [18:16]
Madeline Mann
Right? Yes. So to give you a super practical example, let's say, let's say someone is an executive assistant and they're looking to move into a social media marketing role literally a hundred percent on their resume and on their LinkedIn of the bullets under executive assistant. Like, let's say that only 10% of the time they help the marketing team with scheduling posts or, you know. Right. Helping to write emails either internally or externally, whatever it is that's relevant to this role. Even that's. If that's just 10% of the time that they spent in that job, that is going to make up a hundred percent of their bullets on their resume and on their LinkedIn. And I need people to start making this shift because it feels so weird to them because they're thinking, oh, no, but my best accomplishment was when I did X. Okay, I know that that was super impressive, but that doesn't have to do with where you're going next. And so that is the shift you need to make.
- [19:15]
Matt
That's interesting. I mean, do you not think that there should be any mention of like, previously it's like, all right, I had five to 10 bullet points of like my greatest hits, basically. And instead you're saying essentially to dial that back to zero. Like, does it not make sense to like, include just like at least one bullet point that mentions that almost as like a launching point if they're looking for maybe somebody that's a little more well rounded or just a little bit. I don't know, I feel like there could be some depth that could be appreciated by a potential employer there potentially.
- [19:45]
Madeline Mann
And I wouldn't, I wouldn't discount that. And maybe it would be one of the later bullets. And the bottom line is too often I'll work with clients where I'll say, why is this bullet here? And they will kind of go off on this several paragraph long explanation of, well, because I know that they work with these types of clients, then if they have this type of thing and they need me to do this type of thing, like, hopefully that'll imply that I'm actually good at this type of communication. And the bottom line is people are not reading your entire resume, or if they're even reading it, they're reading it very quickly. So you need to spell things out so clearly to where they are, using little to no brain power to understand that you are the perfect fit. So if you are using some kind of like, you know, vague, implied, I could be really good at this, you know, because of that, you're likely going to lose them.
- [20:38]
Joel
Gotcha.
- [20:38]
Matt
Okay, so less Nancy Drew and more just like literally connecting the dots for them.
- [20:42]
Madeline Mann
Yes, yes.
- [20:43]
Joel
Okay, tell me about the importance of LinkedIn. Like, is LinkedIn kind of the holy grail that people should be spending a lot more of their time focused on when it comes to finding a job? Is that essentially the place that people should put the bulk of their efforts if they're kind of wanting to enter into this job shopping realm?
- [21:04]
Madeline Mann
So the majority of the professionals I help are in the corporate world. There are some industries and professions that aren't on LinkedIn as much. I think about education, I think about government, like those types of. Even though I do help a lot of people in those industries as well, I'm saying that on LinkedIn they're not sourcing, they're not finding as many of their candidates through the actual platform. So I do want to preface that depending on your career, it's more or less important, but if, if you are in the corporate world, it is a hundred percent imperative that you are discoverable on LinkedIn. And your ability to harness LinkedIn for everything it has to offer can completely transform the trajectory of your career and your ability to be a job shopper. Where the second something goes awry in your job or you're not convinced that it is a great next move, you then are able to quickly Pivot and use LinkedIn and all the inbound opportunities you have to be in control.
- [22:12]
Matt
That makes sense. Yeah. That's a good question coming from somebody who's completely self employed.
- [22:18]
Joel
Yeah, your LinkedIn profile sucks, Matt.
- [22:20]
Matt
I mean, I know it does. Like, I almost wonder if it's better for me just to completely delete it so it doesn't exist because I don't even know my password. Like, I have not logged on. I been personally self employed for like decades now.
- [22:32]
Joel
I'd be worried, I'd be worried if you dusted yours off and it started looking real nice. I'd be like, where are you going, buddy?
- [22:36]
Matt
You've been self employed there for, for a minute. But we're going to take a quick break and we're going to continue talking about some of these like personal on a micro level, the steps that you can take to get the job you want. We'll get to that and more right after this. We've all got some old things laying around, but listen, if one of those things is an old 401k, well, it is time to take care of it. Whether you've recently left a job or you're just making time to get your finances in order, Fidelity can help you explore options for your old 401. A fidelity rollover IRA has no account fees or minimums, plus you can choose from a wide selection of investments.
- [23:20]
Joel
Learn more about options that may give you flexibility for using your money today and for your future. It's an easy to follow rollover process that makes it simple to get started online in under 15 minutes. And just in case you need any help along the way, you'll have access to one of Fidelity's rollover specialists. So why leave that 401 lying around? It's time to make sure you keep your money working as hard as you do.
- [23:41]
Matt
That's right. Learn More about a 401k rollover at fidelity.com rollover consider all your options and the applicable fees and features of each before moving your retirement assets. Fidelity Brokerage Services, LLC Member NYSE SIPC hi, this is Joel and Matt from the how to Money podcast.
- [24:01]
Joel
We're almost out of the cold winter months and the way I plan to help myself make it through is to think of the great travel I have planned this summer. Like the road trip I want to take with my kids out west. I'm going to take the whole month off, head towards Seattle for my cousin's wedding by car. I'm already plotting all the different Airbnbs we can stay at along the way.
- [24:18]
Matt
Nice. I think that's a great idea. There's nothing like a cross country road trip during the summer months and staying at Airbnb Bees is a great way to experience all the different towns and cities on the route. Plus, while you're gone for this long stretch of time, you could also be hosting guests in your home on Airbnb, making some extra money in the process. I was an Airbnb host myself for a while and I loved it. It was easy and it gave me the chance to make some extra cash.
- [24:42]
Joel
And now hosting your home is easier than ever on Airbnb with the Co Host feature. Access a network of high quality local co hosts who can help you handle everything from getting your home ready to helping your guests once they arrive with whatever they may need. Find a co host@airbnb.com host.
- [24:58]
Matt
You probably think it's too soon to join AARP, right? Well, let's take a minute to talk about it. Where do you see yourself in 15 years? More specifically, your career, your health, your social life. What are you doing now to help you to get there? Well, there are tons of ways for you to start preparing today for your future with aarp.
- [25:17]
Joel
What about that dream job you've dreamt about? Sign up for AARP reskilling courses to help make it a reality. How about that active lifestyle you've only spoken about from the couch? AARP has health tips and wellness tools to keep you moving for years to come. But none of these experiences are without making friends along the way. Connect with your community through AARP volunteer events.
- [25:38]
Matt
So it's safe to say it's never too soon to join aarp. They're here to help your money, your health and happiness live as long as you do. That's why the younger you are, the more you need AARP. Learn more at aarp.org wisefriend all right.
- [25:55]
Joel
We'Re back for the break. We're still talking with Madeline Mann. Talking about getting the job you want. And let's say you haven't kind of updated your job searching philosophy in many, many years. This is the right episode for you to listen to. Matt. I think some people, let's say they have been in their career 10, 12, 15 years, it's one of those things like we don't apply for a job very often and so we forget how to do it. So that's why I think this is helpful. Madeline, I'm curious to hear how do different economic climates impact job hunters, job seekers? Because post Covid, I think of that, that was like a job hunter's dream.
- [26:32]
Madeline Mann
Yes.
- [26:33]
Joel
It was like you almost didn't have to be good at it because there were just so many job opportunities because there was more supply of jobs and there was demand for those jobs. But that has slowly changed. How do you think about the job climate and then how job searchers should, you know, that should impact how they go into that climate.
- [26:53]
Madeline Mann
What's happening in this current climate, which I would characterize as more of an employer's market, and I don't say that lightly, truly, all the signs have been pointing to it being an employer's market. And what you have to realize in this type of climate is companies are worried about making the wrong hire. They're hiring less. And with each person they hire, they Are afraid of putting out an offer to someone who's not going to work out because they're trying to watch their bottom line.
- [27:31]
Joel
Like the stakes are up higher than they've ever been.
- [27:33]
Madeline Mann
The stakes are higher and they've been burned and they've already had to lay off their teams. And so they just, they don't want anything else to be a shakeup. And so what job seekers are seeing is that they're getting to the end of these interview processes and they're not losing to anyone. They're losing to the company, simply not hiring. And what's happening here is the job seekers. And I'm going to put it on the job seekers for this moment because I like, I like it when, you know, the folks in my audience take ownership of. It's on us to reduce the risk that we are posing to the company. How do you do that? How do you make it so that the company is super confident that you are going to be the right person? You're going to be a high performer. What you do is you give them almost like a free trial. The way we free trial an app. The way we take a sip of wine to try it before we buy the bottle, the way we try a yoga class before we buy a full month pass. You need to bring that kind of energy into the interview process because these interviewers are probably not going to ask you very good questions. They are not going to unearth the best things about you. So what, what my strategies teach is actually to go into interviews with a message, with a mission and to give them certain information and also show them how you work through the. Throughout the entire process so that the risk profile on you goes down. Even if you are a career changer. Because a lot of people say, well, I'm a risky hire because I'm coming from a different industry or a different profession. This works even in that case. But it's about you taking those extra steps versus sitting patiently just answering the questions that companies give you and hoping your answers are adequate.
- [29:27]
Joel
Yeah, no, I like that. I'm curious. You, you highlighted maybe this scenario where you don't get the job. Nope. Through no faults of your own. But just because the company says, I don't know, we're reticent to hire or onboard anybody else right now. What if you do get turned down for a job that you were really excited about and not even because you lost out to somebody else? Do you recommend that people stay in touch with that employer, Stay in touch with the hiring manager? Maybe that they were in contact with. Is that a way to kind of broaden your network and maybe be the first person on their call list if something does open up, if they really are in need.
- [30:06]
Madeline Mann
This is another job shopper mentality, which job shopping is highly positive and optimistic in that if a company interviews you, that means they see your value and you're now building relationships with them and they really like you. A lot of us feel so hurt when we get through two, three, even four rounds of interviews and they don't pick us and they think, oh, they don't like us. Well, what I just heard is they spent four plus hours getting to know you. That that means that they actually do like you. And so what is so important is to. First of all, the first thing you want to do is respond to the rejection positively. You don't realize how important this is. And me as a human resources professional being on the receiving end of thousands of, you know, responses to rejections. Most people can't handle it. Most people are rude or they don't say anything. And so if you say, I completely understand. Thank you. This has been such a wonderful process. I've loved getting to know about your company. I will keep a lookout for other opportunities should another one better fit my skillset. And I'd love to stay in touch and that because when you show your character is not in the good times, it's not when the interviews are great, it's when things go wrong. And so now they're like, oops, we just missed out on someone who's a high integrity person who I want to work in the trenches with because they have a really great outlook on rejection. Then you want to stay in touch. You want to, you know, maybe it's every month or so. Hey, just checking in. I want to let you know I'm still on the lookout for opportunities. Um, no need to respond, but should anything open up, like, let me know, I'm still very interested. You know, little, little follow ups like this can absolutely change the game. I have been dubbed the comeback coach because so many of my clients land jobs at companies that have previously rejected them.
- [32:08]
Matt
Huh? Yeah, it's like this. It's like a tiny little crack that you can get your foot in and people just overlook that. But it's like, actually that is right there. Like, that is the path to land this job. I think sometimes folks are not realizing or they're missing out on the fact that those interactions like that is a form of networking. It's a form of relationship building. And in your book, you Write about how so many folks, they actually hate what they consider to be networking specifically because it's inauthentic. But like, in reality, maybe they're just doing it all wrong. So, like, how would you recommend for job shoppers out there to approach, I guess, more traditional networking?
- [32:45]
Madeline Mann
Networking is the fast way to land jobs, full stop. And people need to start getting more comfortable with it because you need to measure your job search in interactions, not applications. And so simple ways that that can be. Is doing something like asking someone this or that question. Right. So it could be just reaching out to someone you already know or a new person you look at, what is their, their past, just to make sure you can get a bit of context about some things that they might know. And then you ask them a one sentence question in an email. So I might email, you know, hey, Matt and Joel, I'm thinking about starting my own podcast. I was thinking about either using Riverside or X technology. Which one do you think is better to record my podcast on? Thanks. You know, and maybe you just, maybe your answer is just two sentences back to me. But now we are starting conversation and then I can then email you back in a few weeks and say, hey, guys, I went with your, your recommendation to use Riverside and blah, blah, blah. Right. And so just little ways like that and what I think will happen and let me know, because I used y'all as an example. But the person on the other end feels good about helping you. They're like, wow, we just helped Madeline make her decision. It feels good. And also it took you all of 30 seconds to maybe respond. So just finding ways like that to build relationships with folks. And there's, there's. I have so many different strategies on this. There's. But even just little things like that when I, when I position networking that way to people that go, oh, I think I might be overthinking it.
- [34:29]
Joel
Yeah, you think it has to be this like, massive endeavor, like we have to go get lunch together. But it doesn't have to be.
- [34:35]
Matt
That can be a quick email. Like what I hear you saying there is like looking for an ability for whoever you're talking to to provide value. But I mean, there's a way to do that in reverse as well, right? Where you're kind of. I don't know either. Maybe making introduction with some other folks. It just kind of. I like what you said though. Like, just. Even the quick email, it kind of opens channels of conversation for who knows what to then take place after that.
- [34:59]
Madeline Mann
Right. And I, you. You mentioned doing the reverse. So providing value. So a concept I deep dive into pretty deeply in reverse. The search is this concept called 60 seconds of value. So it goes against this idea that so many of us think that in order to build relationships, we need to add a tremendous amount of value to someone. We need to put in minutes or even hours of work, or as you mentioned earlier, like show up to a coffee meeting and talk to them for 90 minutes or whatever it is. But if you just add 60 seconds of value, it can really make a big deal. Like, I could even send a different email where I send it to y'all, where I say, hey, I'm reaching out to people who have financial focused podcasts and like, what's your number one money tip for someone who's been laid off? Or something like that? Right? And, and you know, it's, it's, it's 60 seconds of value because I'm sending this quick email, you're giving me that quote, and now I'm putting it into an article or LinkedIn post or something like that where you are getting further promoted and it's just of me. And then now I get to meet you guys. I get to. Now we have a thread going where there's this reciprocity. We have a relationship started, and so little things like that that you can think of can actually make a huge difference in starting a relationship off with the right foot.
- [36:27]
Joel
Yeah, I feel like imposter syndrome is like, rears its ugly head when we're talking about looking for jobs. You look at the qualifications and you're like, I don't live up to that. Or there's like a bunch of metrics and you're like, I fall short in like two of those metrics, so I shouldn't even try. How much does that really hurt people when they're looking for jobs? And what do you think about when people look at the required experience? They're like, I don't quite meet the qualifications. Should they apply anyway?
- [36:56]
Madeline Mann
It is such a normal experience to feel overqualified for so many roles and then feel under qualified for the rest of them. And you're just stuck in the middle thinking, what the heck do I do now? As we alluded to in the beginning, it is a bit easier to land a job that's a step higher. So what you have to realize is that job descriptions are wish lists. When I worked in human resources, so often we. I would work together with a hiring manager to put together a job description. And I would say, you're expecting someone to have all of these skills and all this experience. And they say, absolutely, like this is what we're looking for. And then days and weeks go by and we find some people, but the hiring manager starts to come to realize that they are looking for a purple squirrel. And so what they do is they start to pare down those expectations or in the interview, once they start talking, they're like, okay, I understand that you don't have exactly this industry experience, but I understand that the transferable and so what people, people overestimate how much the hiring manager ultimately is asking for. Especially once you get a little bit farther, once they've gone through several interviews and they realize, oh, okay, what I'm asking for is a little bit, a little bit ridiculous. And so definitely still go for the role even if you're under qualified. And, and that could sometimes work in your favor because companies can see you as more easily retainable because they don't think you're going to get bored quickly and leave and find to find that better job.
- [38:33]
Matt
Yeah, no, I think it's up to you as the candidate to communicate that well during the interview. Like that is what should be going on there even if you aren't fully qualified. And speaking of interviewing, like, you offer a ton of just great practical advice when it comes to interviews up on your YouTube channel as well. But what are some of the, the other major mistakes that you've seen folks make when they're being interviewed?
- [38:58]
Madeline Mann
When they're being interviewed, there's a few things. One of them that is I'm seeing so often is because you're viewing interviews as you are, you know, subservient to the interviewer, you are, you are the one who is just lucky that they even deign to call you that. You are often a little bit too formal in the interviews. You're a little bit too rehearsed. And I, I, you know, I have a system of, of how to prepare for interviews, which actually is probably a lot shorter than what most people, A lot of people actually kind of over prepare for interviews. But one of the key components is to not only, you know, be competent, but if you are sounding rehearsed or stilted, these people are looking to hire a coworker. So it sets off these alarms in their head and it's all very deeply psychological of I can't trust this person. I worry they're loud, they sound too robotic. Yes, I, I don't, I don't know who they are. They are also, I talk a lot about, about in the book, about how to not be so agreeable in interviews, which at first sounds a little strange because I do talk a lot about being high, highly, like positive in every step of the job search. But you should come in with a perspective if you are a little bit too amenable to everything. Oh, yeah, I can do anything. Yeah. Oh, no. None of it bothers me. People are going to leave that interview saying I didn't get to know them. I don't. I'm not sure how they feel about these things. And that is something I'm seeing for so many people, is that it's sending the wrong signals. And I said, you know, they have to be able to trust you because they're taking a risk on you if they don't feel like they actually like you. Because likeability is a huge part of landing the job. You're not getting it.
- [40:45]
Joel
Yeah, the culture. Culture fit. It matters too. And so do you have any suggestions on kind of researching the company's culture and speaking to that inside of the interview? Because I think oftentimes it's the work experience. But on top of that, they want to make sure that you're going to work well on the team.
- [41:02]
Madeline Mann
So doing informational interviews before an interview is fabulous to talk to employees. But if you already have an interview booked, I would say use your interviews as a lot of the research because in the end, reading Glassdoor reviews, reading blog posts about the company, I do think it is. It is helpful. But the most, the most, the best part there is is you bringing up that you did that research and you mentioning specific things that the company did to show you did your research. That's usually why it's so valuable. It's not as valuable necessarily to, to position yourself the right way because you really have to ask the right questions in the interview that will help you see what they're looking for. And I'll give you an example. Like, you could ask, you could ask the recruiter in your first interview of, okay, you know, how. How is this, how's the search been going? Say, well, yeah, I mean, this, this role's been open for, for two months now. We've been looking long and hard for this. And you say, oh, well, what have a lot of the candidates been missing that you're still really looking for? And they will spill all the things that you need to now position yourself as for the rest of that interview and your future interviews, giving you the.
- [42:18]
Joel
Game plan, the blueprint for you to go out there and just like, hit a home run.
- [42:22]
Madeline Mann
They will 100% give you the blueprint. Another great question to ask is. Yeah, I mean, you, obviously there's tons of people who are probably qualified for this role, but what, what would make someone a high performer in this job? And again, you, you might see them talk about things that are different or slightly differently emphasized than the job description. When you actually hear them say it, you go, bingo. That's how I'm going to position myself. So it's really a lot of this. Yes, it could come from research, but more than research. I want you to have these questions locked and loaded and then your reaction to how you're going to use that information. It can be absolutely lethal if you are thinking the right way about how you're going to use it.
- [43:10]
Joel
Nice. All right, we got a few more questions to get to with with you, Madeline. We specifically want to talk about negotiating. And then we also want to talk about perpetual job shopping. Is that a smart idea? We'll get to that and more right after this. Let's talk retirement for a second. To me, it feels like it's getting harder for people to reach their goals for the future. We hear about inflation, rate hikes, the changing market. Are we even saving enough? And things keep changing, right? And here is where Fidelity comes in. Whether you're saving for retirement or close to living in it, Fidelity can help you get where you want to go, no matter your path or what happens along the way.
- [43:49]
Matt
Yeah, but how? Well, they'll help you to create a free, personalized plan that adapts as your priorities change. They'll also show you what's called timely insights. These are small tips on ways to save and invest to help meet your goals. And you can monitor your plans so you can stay on target. The future is coming, and so is retirement. Get ready to take it on@fidelity.com TakeOn.
- [44:12]
Joel
Expenses charged by your investments and other costs and fees associated with trading or transacting in your account. Apply Fidelity Brokerage Services member NYSE SIPC.
- [44:22]
Matt
Hi, this is Joel and Matt from the how to Money podcast.
- [44:25]
Joel
We're almost out of the cold winter months and the way I plan to help myself make it through is to think of the great travel I have planned this summer. Like the road trip I want to take with my kids out west. I'm going to take the whole month off, head towards Seattle for my cousin's wedding by car. I'm already plotting all the different Airbnbs we can stay at along the way.
- [44:43]
Matt
Nice. I think that's a great idea. There's nothing like a cross country Road trip during the summer months, and staying at Airbnbs is a great way to experience all the different towns and cities on the route. Plus, while you're gone for this long stretch of time, you could also be hosting guests in your home on Airbnb, making some extra money in the process. I was an Airbnb host myself for a while, and I loved it. It was easy and it gave me the chance to make some extra cash.
- [45:07]
Joel
And now hosting your home is easier than ever on Airbnb with the co host feature. Access a network of high quality local co hosts who can help you handle everything from getting your home ready to helping your guests once they arrive with whatever they may need. Find a co host@airbnb.com host.
- [45:23]
Matt
You probably think it's too soon to join AARP, right? Well, let's take a minute to talk about it. Where do you see yourself in 15 years? More specifically, your career, your health, your social life. What are you doing now to help you to get there? Well, there are tons of ways for you to start preparing today for your future with aarp.
- [45:42]
Joel
What about that dream job you've dreamt about? Sign up for AARP reskilling courses to help make it a reality. How about that active lifestyle you've only spoken about from the couch? AARP has health tips and wellness tools to keep you moving for years to come. But none of these experiences are without making friends along the way. Connect with your community through AARP volunteer events.
- [46:03]
Matt
So it's safe to say it's never too soon to join aarp. They're here to help your money, your health and happiness live as long as you do. That's why the younger you are, the more you need AARP. Learn more at aarp.org wisefriend we are back from the break, talking with career coach Madeline Mann. And we just kind of covered some of the different things to do, I guess. Madeline, during the interview process. Let's say the interview goes incredibly well. How then should the job shopper think about negotiating pay? Because in the book you call it a collaborative process. So specifically, what does that look like?
- [46:43]
Madeline Mann
There's a lot of debate out there about when should you talk about money and all of that? Based on my experience in human resources and for helping thousands of people negotiate their salaries, your biggest moment of power is when they have said, we want you, okay? Because at that point they know as much as they can about your value. Um, if you've put your price on your salary and all of that early on in the process, I Think that can be helpful to, to just kind of cut off the, the conversation. If, if the numbers are way too far apart, which I completely understand, that's helpful, but they don't know your value at that point. If they see a big price tag and they say, well, we can't afford that, they might pass on you. But if they've gotten to the finish line, they've fallen in love with you, they're exhausted from this interview process. They, you are the answer to it all being over, and you say, hey, but I want a bit more money. They're gonna say, yeah, just, just, just give her the extra 15k and let's, let's move on with our lives. We love her. So, so that's the first thing is to, you know, at least, you know, try to make what you are asking for as late in the process as possible so that they can line it up with your value versus just having sticker shock. And second, really stating what you want. And then, and often I like to use a number that, if you're going to say a range or even ask for a number, always ask for something that's above what you would actually. What is actually above what is your, your bottom. Too often people will negotiate and they will literally, they will actually put the bottom of the range as the bottom. And unfortunately, companies will often give you whatever is the lowest number you said, or even below that. Like, if they offered you 200,000 and you asked for 220,000, maybe they give you 210,000. Right. So, so you, you need to make sure that whatever is that number that you're saying that it is above what, what you'd be excited to accept.
- [48:55]
Joel
Yeah. And then you're feeling pot committed at that point in time too. You're like, I've gone through this whole process. I guess I'll just take the offer. Whereas if you negotiated in a smarter manner, you could have positioned yourself better to get paid more.
- [49:06]
Matt
Because in reality, you're probably saying to yourself, well, I did say that number. I did say that dollar amount. And so it's just like, well, shoot, maybe I shouldn't have said that. It's hard to go back on words, on the truth that you've already put out there in the universe.
- [49:17]
Joel
Yeah. Madeline, I'm curious. Do you think job shopping should be a perpetual thing? Is this something where like, oh, I got laid off and now it's time for me to update all this, my LinkedIn and my resume and to start the job shopping going in that direction, or is this one of those things that should be done on an ongoing basis. Should we be honing our online presence and our personal brand even when we have a job, even if we love that job?
- [49:43]
Madeline Mann
The thing that people often don't think about, especially in the good times, is they think to go back with the example is, okay, I have a job where I get paid $200,000 a year, but do you, if you get laid off within six months, you're not making $200,000 that year unless you land another job within a few weeks or months and. Or you have a decent amount of severance or whatnot. And so people are not factoring that into their annual compensation of I need to have, if I, if I need to make a certain amount of money a year, do I am able to take several months off with no salary? Or also am if I'm not able to or I don't want to, do I have the ability to, at the drop of a hat, get more opportunities and more offers? And the thing about maintaining your job shopper status is it doesn't take that much effort. You can passively get opportunities coming to you for the rest of your career while times are good. So that should anything go awry, you are immediately thrust into interview processes and considering offers. And so yes, there is ongoing maintenance. And that is something I definitely dive in deeply into the book of how to keep it going. And there is a bit of startup effort to start moving in the direction of being a job shopper, but the maintenance and I've been doing this for enough years to I've been able to track my clients over years of promotions and years of moving companies. And they say that every time they move jobs, it's just easier and easier because that foundation is built. But it does need to be maintained.
- [51:22]
Matt
That makes sense though too. I mean, sort of like Joel earlier on, you're talking about how looking for a job, applying for a job, that's not something that we do very often. It makes me think about moving. And if you've only ever moved once in your entire life, it's a big stinking deal. It's difficult, the logistics, kind of wrapping your head around it. But if you're used to moving, if it's something that you've done like every.
- [51:43]
Joel
Few years, like my little sister who moves almost every year, you get better.
- [51:46]
Matt
At it in a similar way, I think instead of just moving where you lay your head, it's moving where you park your butt during the day while you're sitting there at the computer. I think the better you get at looking for some of those opportunities. Makes a ton of sense. What's your advice for how often you can move to a different company before it starts harming your career? Because I feel like this is something that folks were doing a lot, especially back during the pandemic. Offers were flying at folks left and right. Do you feel like that that's leveled out? Leveled out some and kind of what's the timeframe that you think folks should maybe perhaps even like limit themselves to job hopping?
- [52:22]
Madeline Mann
It does depend on mainly two factors. One is what is your profession? The more in demand your profession is, the more job hopping won't impact you as much because you know, companies really need you and they will be willing to look past that. The second one is how far along are you in your career? If you are, you know, first five to seven years in your career and you hop to a few different places because you're trying to figure out what you want to do, companies are like, yes, of course you're figuring out what you're going to do. That, that makes total sense. But as we start to move later into our career and we're, we're managing people now and we are setting business strategy, companies are looking for people who are going to see things through from start to finish and to build a reputation. And, and personally I'm someone who really sees that. Yeah, more of job hopping is like under two years is kind of like where, where you're kind of starting to get into job hopping territory. When you get to three and four years, I would say that's just like a solid tenure. And if you go, if you stay for like more than five, it's like, whoa, you've been at the company forever. So at least that's in. It differs for different industries, of course, but if you are kind of viewing each job like you are, like you would at least of like, you know, enrolling in a four year college program or something like that. As you're getting more advanced in your career, it is really good to stay there for at least that amount of time or possibly even longer because the things that, that can do for your career, of the depth of the relationships, the quality of the accomplishments, the reputation that you can build can be pretty unparalleled. So it really is a personal decision. But I would, I would caution you against job hopping too much once you get later in your career.
- [54:22]
Joel
Wonderful. Madeline, so much great information. Thank you so much for taking the time to join us today. Where can how to money listeners find out more about you and more about your book that's coming out in just a few days.
- [54:33]
Madeline Mann
Absolutely. You can find it@reverset.com and you can find me as Madeline Mann on LinkedIn, Self Made Millennial on YouTube. And Madeline Mann is my website as well.
- [54:47]
Matt
Awesome. Madeline, thank you so much for talking with us today.
- [54:50]
Madeline Mann
Thank you.
- [54:51]
Joel
All right, Matt, that was such a good conversation, so much good information. And again, if you don't apply for jobs regularly, which most people don't, I.
- [55:01]
Matt
Definitely have in a long, long time.
- [55:03]
Joel
You better. You better not have.
- [55:05]
Matt
Then I wonder if that's why. Okay, let's be honest. Is that a part of why? A lot of what her message. A lot of what her message contained, why it stood out to us. Because of the fact that this isn't a space that you and I are in, that we're walking around a whole lot. Right. Like, we always are, talking about investing, we're always talking about debt, student loans, retirement, all of these. Like, that's our space. But when it comes to jobs and trying to, you know, launch a new career, trying to get a new job, those topics are a little bit more foreign to us.
- [55:32]
Joel
Yeah. But I think that's also just true for everyone out there listening, or for most people out there listening, they're like, I don't remember the last time I applied for a job, unless you are a job operator. And I bet there are people out there listening who are like, but I'd like to. I don't really like where I'm at. I would like to make more money. I'd like to pivot in my career to do something a little more interesting or enjoyable. So. So what was your big takeaway from this combo with Madeline?
- [55:51]
Matt
So a lot of what she said stood out to me. I took a ton of notes. But specifically when she was talking about during the interview process, the questions that you can ask by being a little bit inquisitive, you can glean a ton of information that wasn't on the job listing.
- [56:08]
Joel
It's like Inception or something.
- [56:09]
Matt
Yeah. I don't know. It's like actually. It's like actually reading the tea leaves. It's like, okay, the job posting said that you're looking for this, but just from talking with you for five minutes, the conversation before the conversation, I've learned that, like, that you have emotionally tied yourself to this part of what it is that you're looking for. I like how she talked through that. She's just like, they'll totally spill exactly what it is that they're looking for. And your ability to tailor your responses with that in mind. Not that you're lying, not that you're being deceitful, but your ability to highlight how you are going to fit perfectly squarely in this square. You know, you're in a square peg.
- [56:44]
Joel
You're being strategic.
- [56:45]
Madeline Mann
Yes.
- [56:46]
Matt
Yeah, I think that's. I think that's brilliant. So she said that whether it's that or whether it's, hey, what about some of the other. Other candidates who have you. Who have you talked to? You know, like, what are they missing? Well, let's not be negative. Not what are they missing, but what would the ideal candidate have? And again, it gives you some of that information that will allow yourself to be. That will allow you to put yourself in the best light. That was, that was my big takeaway. How about you?
- [57:07]
Joel
There are a million things I could say in response to that, but I think when it boils down to it, she said, you are a product. Sell yourself. And I was like, man, that's true. And we're so hesitant. And I think there's a difference. You can be humble and sell yourself. I think sometimes people think that it's one or the other. Like, you either you're a cocky, prideful person, pompous jerk, trying to sell yourself, but I think you can do it with humility, like in a, In a reasonable way. And she outlined actually a bunch of tangible ways to do that in the job searching or the job shopping process. So don't be afraid to sell yourself. Don't be afraid to talk about the things that you can help that company with. You want to be the solution. You want to be the Advil to that pain point. Right. That they're experiencing. And if you. Or maybe just the generic ibuprofen. Right. Mac is, let's be honest, Advil cost too much, but you have the ability to do that for an employer. And if you don't sell yourself, if you're unwilling to kind of be a little more forthcoming about what you have to offer, there's a chance you're going to get lost in. In the shuffle of a bunch of other people who want that same position. You do. Totally.
- [58:19]
Matt
And there's a trick too, of doing, Doing that without being super agreeable, where, like, you don't want to be so polished that there's no grit, there's nothing there for the interviewer.
- [58:27]
Joel
Yeah.
- [58:27]
Matt
To latch onto.
- [58:28]
Joel
But you want to be like, well, I like that, but.
- [58:30]
Madeline Mann
Ooh.
- [58:31]
Joel
You ever thought about it like this?
- [58:32]
Matt
Yeah. Yeah. The Ability to provide your own ideas as well. The beer you and I enjoyed today was called. I don't know. I've never seen this word before. I think it's called a fonio or fonio rising. It's an ancient West Africa super grain. Oh, okay. That's not the kind of beer. It is, I guess. It's made with an ancient West African super grain. See? Oh, on the back, It's a pale ale. It's a pale ale by Brooklyn Brewery. A limited release. What'd you think?
- [58:56]
Joel
So this was like, a wheaty pale ale.
- [58:59]
Matt
Yeah, it was.
- [58:59]
Joel
Yeah, totally. Which I appreciate, which gives it just, like, a little more body.
- [59:04]
Matt
I think they're trying to highlight this better mouthfeel, this ancient grain or whatever. But it's interesting. Yeah.
- [59:09]
Joel
Because the hops kind of took a backseat in this one.
- [59:11]
Matt
Totally agree. And its wake was certainly the sort of weedy backbone. But the first thing I noticed was just the floral bouquet like it had. And it says they want you to pull out fruity and citrus notes, But I pulled out peachy notes. To me, it had, like, serious peachy vibes going on. Really enjoyed it. Glad you and I got to share it today.
- [59:31]
Joel
Peaches. I don't think there were actually any peaches made put into this beer.
- [59:34]
Matt
No, I don't think so.
- [59:35]
Joel
Peach beers are phenomenal. Like peach sours, the pesh. Oh, yeah, they're one of the top. To me, they're one of the best fruits to put in a sour beer.
- [59:42]
Matt
Dude, what's a lot? Oh, for me, it's blueberry. You know, I love blueberry sours. I think raspberries are just blueberry sour. Oh, man.
- [59:47]
Joel
Raspberries are my number one. Cherries are my number two. Peaches are three.
- [59:50]
Matt
I forgot about cherry. Yeah, no, cherries. Got to be number one.
- [59:52]
Joel
Cherries are so perfect for me.
- [59:54]
Matt
So I guess we need to have some barrel age showers.
- [59:56]
Joel
Let's come back to the beer store.
- [59:57]
Matt
It's been a minute, but you can find our show notes up on the website@howtomoney.com we'll make sure to link to some of Madeline's different resources, where it is that you can buy her book that comes out next week, which is called reverse the search. It's a good one. And all right, buddy, that's gonna be it.
- [60:12]
Joel
So until next time, best friends out.
- [60:14]
Matt
Best friends.
- [60:30]
Joel
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- [60:53]
Matt
That's right, and for a limited time they're doing free 30 minute strategy sessions. So start today by booking a free strategy session with one of their experts by going to domainmoney.com howtomoney I am.
- [61:06]
Joel
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- [61:16]
Madeline Mann
A world of economic uncertainty and workplace transformation. Learn to Lead by Example from visionary C suite executives like Shannon Schuyler of PwC and Will Pearson of iHeartMedia, the Good Teacher explains the great teacher inspires. Don't always leave your team to do the work that's been the most important part of how to lead by Example. Listen to Leading by Example executives making an impact on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Hey, you're listening to On Purpose with Jay Shetty and today my guests are none other than Selena Gomez and Benny Blanco.
- [61:59]
Matt
What I felt for Benny, it was everything about him was honest. He'll tell me anything that he's feeling, and it made me feel like I.
- [62:07]
Joel
Could do this same.
- [62:09]
Madeline Mann
If we would have met each other when we were younger, it would have never worked. Listen to On Purpose with Jay Shetty on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.