How Complicated Should Investing Be? (Bestie Ep) #1017

Summary

Podcast Summary: How Complicated Should Investing Be? (Bestie Ep) #1017

Released on August 1, 2025, by iHeartPodcasts.

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Introduction

In episode #1017 of How to Money, hosts Joel and Matt delve into the intricate question: "How Complicated Should Investing Be?" Aimed at providing straightforward, jargon-free personal finance guidance, the duo emphasizes the importance of simplicity in investment strategies to help listeners achieve their financial goals without unnecessary complexity.

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Market Context: Exiting a Historic Bear Market

The episode opens with Matt highlighting a significant market milestone:

“We just exited the longest bear market since 1948. Isn’t that crazy?” ([02:13])

Joel concurs, expressing astonishment at how seamlessly many investors continued their strategies despite prolonged market downturns. This backdrop sets the stage for discussing how overcomplicating investment choices can hinder financial progress.

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The Temptation of Complexity in Investing

Joel and Matt draw parallels between everyday decisions and investment choices, illustrating how an overload of options can lead to decision fatigue. Joel shares a personal anecdote about choosing a parking spot, subtly introducing the idea that too many choices can lead to unnecessary stress and suboptimal decisions.

“The choice overload. There are so many directions you can go in on the investing front... complicating things doesn’t always make them better.” ([06:15])

Matt reinforces this by discussing how the plethora of investment options can distract investors from maintaining consistent, disciplined investment habits.

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Simplifying Investment Strategies

The hosts advocate for minimalist investment portfolios, primarily consisting of broad-based index funds and target-date funds. They argue that such simplicity not only reduces decision fatigue but also aligns with proven wealth-building strategies.

“The minimalist route, investing within a single fund or maybe two that are already well diversified, this is an effective strategy that will get you where it is that you want to be.” ([48:05])

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Key Investment Topics Discussed

1. International Stocks

   Joel and Matt examine the role of international stocks in a diversified portfolio. While acknowledging potential benefits, they emphasize that for many investors, domestic index funds may suffice.

   “Jack Bogle, he's the founder of Vanguard... he was famously not a big fan of international diversification for a number of reasons.” ([19:32])

2. ESG Funds

   The duo critically assesses Environmental, Social, and Governance (ESG) funds, pointing out inconsistencies and potential underperformance compared to traditional funds.

   “ESG is largely in the eye of the beholder... Philip Morris, which is the company that make cigarettes... scoring higher in the ESG ratings than Tesla.” ([24:26])

3. Real Estate Investments: REITs and Syndications

   Joel and Matt discuss Real Estate Investment Trusts (REITs) as a passive way to gain real estate exposure without the hassles of property management. They caution against more hands-on real estate investments like syndications due to higher risks and complexities.

   “Most folks don't need real estate exposure because the average American homeowner... have most of their network tied up in their home, their primary residence.” ([30:07])

4. Alternative Investments: Cryptocurrencies, NFTs, and More

   The hosts advise against venturing into highly speculative investments such as cryptocurrencies and NFTs, especially for those who haven't solidified their foundational investment strategies.

   “If you've got money left over and you just love the novelty of it, then like it's not the worst thing in the world... but most people, they're just reducing their meat and potatoes style investing.” ([39:04])

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Financial Advisors vs. Robo-Advisors vs. DIY Investing

Joel and Matt weigh the pros and cons of hiring traditional financial advisors, robo-advisors, and managing investments independently. They advocate for robo-advisors like Betterment as a cost-effective middle ground, offering automated investment management with some access to human advisors.

“Betterment is probably one of the best ones out there... their fees range from like 0.25% for kind of like their standard digital plan...” ([44:16])

However, they caution against traditional advisors due to their high fees, especially for those who are just starting their investment journeys.

“When you're hearing us say this, that means you're listening to the podcast, which means like, that tells me that I think you are the kind of person who's going to proactively take charge of your finances.” ([42:18])

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The Power of Simplicity: Index Funds and Dollar Cost Averaging

A recurring theme of the episode is the advocacy for index funds and dollar cost averaging as the backbone of a simplified and effective investment strategy. The hosts emphasize consistency and regular contributions over trying to time the market or chase high-return investments.

“If you're trying to get that perfect allocation, create the most diverse investment account possible, you're probably not quite as focused on that more important lever.” ([50:57])

They liken maintaining a simple investment plan to following a structured program like the "Couch to 5K" running plan, highlighting the importance of gradual and sustained effort.

“If you just kind of keep doing it with every paycheck, without overthinking it, you're going to be ahead, vastly ahead of the majority of your peers on the investing front.” ([49:07])

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Closing Thoughts: Stick to the Plan

Joel and Matt conclude by reiterating the importance of a disciplined, minimalist investment approach. They warn against letting market noise and the allure of novel investment opportunities derail consistent investment habits.

“Don't let perfect be the enemy of good. Get started and then continue learning.” ([46:47])

They encourage listeners to focus on foundational investment practices, ensuring that simplicity enhances rather than hinders financial growth.

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Notable Quotes with Timestamps

• Matt on the Bear Market:

  “We just exited the longest bear market since 1948. Isn’t that crazy?” ([02:13])

• Joel on Decision Fatigue:

  “There are so many directions you can go in on the investing front... complicating things doesn’t always make them better.” ([06:15])

• Joel on Minimalist Investing:

  “The minimalist route, investing within a single fund or maybe two that are already well diversified, this is an effective strategy that will get you where it is that you want to be.” ([48:05])

• Matt on ESG Funds:

  “ESG is largely in the eye of the beholder... Philip Morris, which is the company that make cigarettes... scoring higher in the ESG ratings than Tesla.” ([24:26])

• Joel on Robo-Advisors:

  “Betterment is probably one of the best ones out there... their fees range from like 0.25% for kind of like their standard digital plan...” ([44:16])

• Matt on Simplicity in Investing:

  “If you just kind of keep doing it with every paycheck, without overthinking it, you're going to be ahead, vastly ahead of the majority of your peers on the investing front.” ([49:07])

• Joel on Investment Consistency:

  “Don't let perfect be the enemy of good. Get started and then continue learning.” ([46:47])

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Conclusion

Joel and Matt effectively articulate that simplicity in investing not only reduces stress and decision fatigue but also aligns with proven strategies for wealth accumulation. By advocating for broad-based index funds, disciplined contributions, and cautious exploration of additional investment avenues, they provide listeners with a clear roadmap to navigate the often overwhelming world of personal finance.

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For more insights and detailed discussions, visit howtomoney.com and subscribe to the How to Money newsletter.

Transcript

[Unknown Host]

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[Joel]

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[Joel]

Welcome to How To Money. I'm Joel.

[Matt]

And I am Matt.

[Joel]

And today we're asking the question how complicated should invest?

[Matt]

Yeah. So speaking of investing, did you realize I didn't realize this until recently, until a couple weeks ago, but we just exited the longest bear market since 1948.

[Joel]

Oh wow.

[Matt]

Isn't that crazy?

[Joel]

That is crazy to think about. So here's feel that long. Ultimately it really did.

[Matt]

And this is so the reason I'll bring this up is because I love the fact that we didn't even really notice that. And hopefully listeners didn't notice that either because they were just continuing to invest like clockwork, continuing to plug money into the market market. But oftentimes folks aren't doing that because they are over complicating things. They're making it a little too complex is keeping them from their financial goals and so we're going to try to make sure that does not happen from here on out. If you're listening to this podcast.

[Joel]

Yeah. And there's a couple things I think that might make sense to complicate a little bit on the investing front, but how complex you get and what you, you know, what you choose to invest. And we're going to talk about a bunch of different ways you can complicate things and maybe it's good and then other ways in which you can overdo it.

[Matt]

So that's the, that you should completely avoid.

[Joel]

That's the theme of this, of this combo, of this episode.

[Matt]

What's this? You wanted to talk about getting beers last night or something?

[Joel]

Okay, so we got beers with a friend last night and there's free parking all around where we hang, but there's also a paid parking lot when all.

[Matt]

The free parking's taken really close to this particular establishment.

[Joel]

Yes. And I was driving from across town and I couldn't find a free parking spot and I didn't want to be a jerk and be late when we'd had this hang plan for a little while. So I paid five bucks for parking. And I hate that. There's like, not much I hate more than that. And so. But then we were walking to the car after, after hanging out, and he pointed out a couple of free spots I didn't know about. He's like, these are the, this is the low hanging fruit. No one's ever in these spots, so hopefully I'll never have to do it again.

[Matt]

Okay, so I got a couple follow ups. And how. Okay, so when you were meeting up. Yeah, like with a friend for beers, how late is too late? Because there's like a certain amount of window. Unless like you're. It's a business meeting and like you're meeting a client. Obviously if you're, if you're on time, you're late. Like, basically you need to get there early. But when it comes to like friend hangs, what's your window of time being.

[Joel]

Past 10 minutes late feels just. Oh, yeah, rude. Okay.

[Matt]

I totally.

[Joel]

If you're like three to five minutes late, it's, it's probably not that big.

[Matt]

Three to five. Which is why, because I saw you walking into the. The place last night and I was like, oh crap, do I need to go ahead and pay for parking as well? And it was like four or five minutes after. And so I was like, all right, I'm gonna circle.

[Joel]

You circle the block.

[Matt]

The block one more time. And. Okay, so.

[Joel]

So you found A free spot. I paid like an idiot.

[Matt]

So, okay, what are your thoughts on how do you feel about questionable parking spots? Like spots that obviously, if something is marked and it says no parking, I don't. You're not gonna park there. There's a good chance you might get towed, whatever, make somebody upset. But I guess I mentioned this because I feel like for years I have parked in spots that are like, oh, I'm not totally sure this is a legit spot. It doesn't say no parking. It's not right in front of a fire hydrant. There's no red curb that. And I can't remember the last time I got a parking ticket. It's a.

[Joel]

You gotta know what you're risking. Right, And.

[Matt]

Exactly. I think I took a risk I'm willing to take.

[Joel]

A couple years ago when I was meeting a friend down by the airport, he was in town for a second, we grabbed beers and I parked in, I think, where like, they. The. The valet would park cars, but it was raining super hard, there was nobody out there, and there were plenty of spots. And so I risked it and I didn't get a ticket, which is great, but I also knew I might get a ticket or somebody might say something to me.

[Matt]

Did you. Had you said something to the valet? Wasn't there like a valet there? And you're like, hey, or is this.

[Joel]

I don't think so. I don't think there was anybody there. Which is why I was like, all right, I'm just going to give it a shot. But, yeah, so paying for parking is a pet peeve of mine.

[Matt]

Every once in a while, you got to know. You got to know what you're willing to risk.

[Joel]

Yeah. All right, let's mention the beer we're having on this episode. This one's called Symptom of Progeny. It's a golden sour ale that you picked up, Matt, at burial.

[Matt]

So not only did I pick one up for us, I actually picked up three additional bottles for Kate and I because we had this at the brewery and we liked it that much at the time, I was thinking this is a perfect barrel aged golden ale, so I'm looking forward to sharing it with you today.

[Joel]

Same here. All right, well, let's get to the subject of handmade. We're talking about how complicated investing should be. And it just made me think back when we were renovating our home before we made the move to the burbs, and I'd never really done that massive of a renovation. And it was kind of fun to Pick out specific finishes for all the stuff we were doing, like the tile, the.

[Matt]

Oh, yeah. The tile in particular was top notch.

[Joel]

I really liked it. And it was just, it was a fun endeavor up until a point. And then it started to kind of get old after a while right there. There were endless options of everything. And even picking out that tile, it. It took a lot of searching and looking to find the exact kind that we wanted. And so at a certain point in the process, I kind of got decision fatigue. Right. Discussing paint colors and toilets even, which who knew that you could really go down a rabbit hole of toilets? But yes, you can. Especially these days online. There's so many, so many different toile you could get. And at some point you just stop caring which toilet suits your vibe the best. Right? Investment choices, I think can be similar to that kind of process of when you're renovating and all the choices you have, the choice overload. There's so many directions you can go in on the investing front, all sorts of options that you can consider. And I do think for some things in life, more can be merrier, right? But it can also backfire. And things that can, could be fun or could be energizing ways in which more choice can be beneficial. Well, it's possible for it to go too far, especially, especially when we're talking about building wealth. And so we would, we would say, and something we talk about on the show regularly is that complicating things doesn't always make them better. And in fact, the opposite is typically true. And especially on the investing front.

[Matt]

That's right. Yeah. So you, you even said the term decision fatigue. And that's when basically you are spending an inordinate amount of time trying to decide which of the many, many options you have available to you is going to su. And when it comes to investing specifically, there are so many options, so many distractions that can keep us from investing the way that we should with the vast majority of our money. And you know, when there is that much noise, which is often coming from the talking heads in financial media, it is no wonder that we start thinking like we start asking ourselves, well, maybe I should be investing internationally, right? Like, I should probably diversify more.

[Joel]

I need some value stocks in my portfolio.

[Matt]

Why not invest in wine and art as well? I've heard that the returns on ESG funds, they're pretty solid, so maybe that's the direction I should be going. But many of those questions and considerations, they don't actually help all that much. And in fact, they end up distracting us from doing what it is that we should be doing. But that doesn't necessarily mean that we should just bury our heads in the sand. We think it is important to know what the other options out there are and then why it is that we should either consider them or ignore them altogether.

[Joel]

That's part of the reason we like Aldi, Matt, is because there's just fewer things, fewer choice. Right. At your disposal. There's like one ketchup. And so you just get the ketchup as you're walking by. And the simplicity.

[Matt]

Even know what is it? Berman's. Yeah, I think that's right. Aldi lines.

[Joel]

Yeah. And it's just nice to know. Okay, cool. I need ketchup. And I don't have to look at the price per ounce and different brand names and which one's on sale right now. You just grab the ketchup and it's so easy. So I think, yeah, we could stand to have a little more like Aldi in the way we think about investing. And part of the reason we're talking about this today is because when market conditions are good, there's even more of an inclination to shake things up, to start overthinking things. And you mentioned, hey, guess what? Now we've ended that longest bear run and we're in a bull market right now. When we are in that bear market, though, when things are going badly, when the stock market is performing poorly, nobody wants to discuss smart investing methods. Everyone's just kind of like covering their head. They're grinning and burying it.

[Matt]

The assumption is that the market is going to continue to drop. And so why would you start investing if things are going to continue along the same path?

[Joel]

Yeah, but then again, when things start going gangbusters, everybody's got an opinion. Right? And so now that we are officially in this bull market, we're up 20% from those lows. We're seeing certain stocks popping in a big way, and I think more people are more inclined to start fiddling with their portfolio. It holds a greater allure. Right now, when things are going up, up and to the right. And the boring index fund route, it seems more intelligent, I think, when the market is going down. But on the way up, it just, it feels kind of like you should be making moves to amplify those gains. Right. Why? Why settle for average when certain things are popping off to greater degrees? But just because it's more exciting or just because it's more enticing, that doesn't mean it's the direction you should be heading in.

[Matt]

That's right. Yeah. And also we're not just talking about the, you know, that part of your portfolio that you want to speculate with, that 5% or less that you'll hear us mention here on the show as a pressure relief valve. We still think that this is a good rule of thumb, a good thing to maintain. And for a lot of folks who do to tinker, I think having a negligible amount of money that you can trade just for funsies helps them to stay the course and to keep doing the boring old standard, bland thing with the bulk of their investment dollars. So eat your heart out with that small percentage of play investment dollars.

[Joel]

Go to town, do the funkiest things.

[Matt]

You can think of, the money though, that you're willing to completely lose. But what we're talking about today is the other 95% of your portfolio, a few specific temptations, and then why it is that most of them should probably be avoided.

[Joel]

Yeah, it's not that we have a problem with folks getting a little wild and a little speculative. It's just that you like 5% wild. Exactly, exactly. You just can't let it infect all the other areas that you're trying to do. The boring, proven method of building wealth. Right. And so if you let it get out of hand, I feel like it can kind of tank the majority of what your of your assets that are going to be doing just the standard, normal thing, which is investing in total overall stock market kind of thing. Right. And we're also, we're not going to focus too much on timing today. Right. Whether now is a good time to start investing if you haven't already. Because for most people, dollar cost averaging is the best approach. Right. Sticking your money into your 401k, your IRA or your HSA, your health savings account, which we always talk about as being an awesome investment vehicle. Most people don't think of it that way.

[Matt]

Talked about it on Monday. Yeah, we've been hitting it more lately. Yeah, it's a good thing.

[Joel]

It is. Because people need to know that. And if you're investing each of those vehicles like clockwork, every time you get paid without giving it a second thought, this is the best way to go. Right. And so when it comes to timing, it's not something that we're fans of. And in fact, it's really easy to screw that up and actually shoot yourself in the foot as you're trying to time your entrance into the market in a given month or year. But this strategy, the dollar cost averaging Strategy. It works because you're able to remove your emotions from the equation and our emotions can get the best of us. But that being said, if you really want to optimize for the highest return, the data show that lump sum investing at the beginning of the year or as soon as you're able to fund a retirement account is the way to go. And I guess the reason we talk about dollar cost averaging is and not lump sum is just because that's how most people get paid. That's the way it makes most sense.

[Matt]

But most folks aren't sitting on like a massive pile chunk of money like.

[Joel]

When should I deploy this? You know? But if you, if you are, if you do have the money in January to fully fund your Roth IRA or something like that, go for it, go to town. That's a better thing to do than do the doing the dollar cost averaging approach. It's just that specifically with something like a 401k, it makes sense to deploy it every single paycheck. So really, the timing that we're talking about is the sooner the better and the more regular the better too.

[Matt]

Yeah. And I do think it's worth maybe trying to work towards that lump sum investing kind of mindset, if you're able to slowly, over time, over the years, kind of get ahead of it, Right? So as opposed to you get paid, you invest a portion of that, but stocking, like stockpiling that ahead of time. So if you're able to max that out, make that payment that year, but then slowly over time, you build up essentially like a little war chest so that when the new year does hit and you are able to invest in those retirement accounts for the next year, the ability to make that happen sooner rather than later, it does over the long haul return you higher returns. But then when it comes to the actual securities or the actual investments that we're making, there's also a lot of nuance involved. Some things are going to be more negotiable than others. And some of the things we're going to mention today might actually be worth considering. So we'll talk about some of those alongside some ways that folks are tempted to invest their money right now that we think are going to be a distraction at best, but it actually could be damaging your future returns at worst.

[Joel]

It feels like we have more investment options at our disposal than ever before. It's the opposite of Aldi, like I was talking about Matt. Now we have this plethora, this range, not just inside of our 401, but then even all of these exterior alternative investment possibilities that we could partake in that were getting pitched right and in different places. Whether it's a newsletter that you read or whether it's commercials that you see or social media advertisements.

[Matt]

Yeah, just talking with friends, I feel like it's a conversation I have more often as I've gotten older folks, and rightly so, are more interested in investing. But just because folks are talking about it doesn't mean that it's something that you, that you should be considering.

[Joel]

Because. Yeah, but it's all enticing and it's like your eyes can get as wide as saucers. You're like, wait, I can invest in that or this or that. That's amazing. But then you. I think a lot of people lose the plot if they start to go down that rabbit hole and maybe they miss out on the main course. So yeah, let's talk about some of those added investing complications. When to say yes, when to say no. We'll get to more on that right after this. Looking for a smarter way to teach your child to ride a bike and support American jobs at the same time? Most kids bikes are just cheap imports. They're heavy, clunky, hard for kids to control. Guardian Bikes is changing that. They're assembling bikes right here in the USA with plans for full US Manufacturing in the next few months. It's a commitment to higher quality and American craftsmanship you can trust. Each bike is lightweight, low to the ground, and built to help kids learn to ride faster, many in just one day. No training wheels needed.

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[Matt]

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[Joel]

Passed away, what, a year or two ago.

[Matt]

Yeah. All that long ago. He was famously not a big fan of international diversification for a number of reasons. And the truth is, so many of the companies that you own in either a total stock market index fund or an S&P 500 index fund, they do business overseas. And that was honestly, that was Bogle's main argument. Something like 40% of S&P 500 revenues come from other countries, come from overseas. And so folks who have diversified to more international holdings, they haven't done as well. But of course, past results are not indicative of future returns. And so we're not saying that like, oh yeah, things you should only be investing in US Companies. This isn't like, even though we love America for many reasons, we think that our country is a very fertile ground when it comes to starting new industries and the ability for companies to get ahead. That doesn't necessarily mean that over the long haul that international stocks may not do better than the total US Stock market.

[Joel]

Yeah, well, and the truth is our country is really only 4% of the world's population. But we have our stock market. The global wealth is something close to a quarter of. Turns out that when you look at the numbers, international stocks are relatively inexpensive these days, which is part of the reason you're probably seeing more headlines about them. And friend of the show, Ben Carlson, Matt, who's just a brilliant mind, I love reading his blog. He recently articulated his views on why folks should have more international stock exposure. And he said global diversification is about accepting good enough returns to avoid the potential for terrible returns at an inopportune time. I think it's a really good way of thinking about it. You're not necessarily, if you do choose to invest internationally, doing it because you're looking for outsized mega returns or anything like that, you might see better returns over the next decade, who knows? But I think investing internationally, it's not a necessity. But given the outperformance that the US Stock market has seen recently in the past decade plus, international stocks do look cheaper and more attractive right now. This is one of those things where I think you can complicate your life a little bit and add international stocks to your portfolio. But it's also not a have to.

[Matt]

Yeah. I think Ben's argument is it's more from a wealth preservation standpoint as opposed to him saying that things are going to be gangbusters overseas in the coming decades.

[Joel]

Some folks would point to Japan whose stock market was rocking and rolling in the 1980s and I think finally just got back to 1980 levels, like in recent weeks.

[Matt]

So multiple decades.

[Joel]

Yeah, so like lost decades really, which you know, could happen if you're too heavy into one country.

[Matt]

Yeah, but so, so even if you do want some international exposure, don't go overboard and don't make massive changes quickly, like all at once. I would consider keeping your portfolio as it is, keep it intact. But then start investing any new dollars into either target date funds or into another international fund like Vanguard's Total World Market Fund. The ticker symbol for that one is vt. And what's great about those too? Well, especially Vanguard's. The are so incredibly low. That's one of the things you get with Vanguard.

[Joel]

You get that international international exposure, but you're barely paying more than what you pay for just an S&P 500 index fund.

[Matt]

It is a little bit more on the target date funds, but there I think it's fair because you are getting an added benefit with those target date funds as it's changing its allocation over the years. And this is, and it truly is.

[Joel]

The most set it and forget it approach.

[Matt]

Yeah, well, exactly. Because I mean, I don't know if we were planning even to talk about bonds, but a big part of that too is it changes how much of its holdings are in bonds because when you're looking really, really far out, like bonds are more conservative and so they're there oftentimes as a hedge to stocks. But then especially with the target day funds that are, that we're quickly approaching, say like a 2030 fund, you're going to see a much higher percentage of the allotment of the portfolio towards bonds. But that doesn't necessarily mean though that you should be going out and also buying a bond index fund because especially if you are earlier on in the wealth building stage of your investing life, you can afford, you can handle to weather out those, the volatility, those storms, those ups and downs. And in fact you can't afford to not be investing in actual stocks over the long haul the closer you get to retirement. Yeah, maybe you do want to de risk a little bit and see more consistent returns, but you just need to know that those returns are going to be slightly less than if it was fully in stocks.

[Joel]

But it's going to smooth out the bumps, which especially as you're getting closer to withdrawing those funds, you want those months to be smoothed out because it's going to be really disheartening and potentially destroying to your lifestyle. If, let's say your portfolio declined 20% or something in a year, you had a 2022 style year as you are leaving employment, that's a tough pill to swallow. Let's talk about another thing, Matt, that can complicate people's portfolios and that's investing in a socially responsible way. Opting for ESG funds, which is becoming more and more popular. We're seeing a lot of people start to sock more of their money into these kinds of funds.

[Matt]

And ESG stands for environmental, social and governance.

[Joel]

Yeah.

[Matt]

So the way a company is run.

[Joel]

Yeah. And there's just a lot more interest now in these funds. And there's kind of a push to get people to stick their money into these funds, which claim to be investing in ways that are better for the environment and for other social reasons. But our take really is that ESG is largely in the eye of the beholder. And you can't make this up, Matt. But something I saw last week, Philip Morris, which is the company that make cigarettes that have killed so many people, millions of people, they're scoring higher in the ESG ratings than Tesla, like significantly higher.

[Matt]

Yay, esg.

[Joel]

I know. And so it's just like, what in the world is ESG trying to accomplish? And similar thing. Right. Companies who are hijacking our attention, they're making products with slave labor overseas. Like many of those companies are also ESG darlings. They score well on these ESG fronts. So I think the lack of, of definability is a massive problem on the SG front. And it's been sold as this way to do good with your investment dollars. But that's not necessarily the way it shakes out in reality.

[Matt]

Yeah. And ESG funds, they actually. So they not only perform more poorly in a financial sense, offering worse returns to investors, which is the main goal of investing, but they're also actually worse on these ESG metrics than what it is these funds say that they're trying to achieve. This is according to research out of Columbia University. We'll link to that in the show notes. But there are other studies as well that have come to similar conclusions. Opting for these ESG funds, it's not doing anything much for the environment or to change corporate governance. And these, these funds, again, you know they perform more poorly because they come with higher fees oftentimes, not to mention worse results. So for a while there, it seemed like ESG funds were actually performing better. And it's just like, all right, if that's the direction you want to go based on past performance. But we're actually seeing that shift recently. But all of those things are eating into your returns significantly over time. And we think that most folks should actually avoid some of these newer ESG funds, instead stick to traditional index funds. It's so difficult to define what it is that these different ESG funds are trying to achieve. So much of it, it's not objective, it's subjective. And so again, for you as an individual, you might hold different values than what it is that Meta is trying to accomplish or Microsoft or any company, regardless of where they are on the ESG scale.

[Joel]

And it's my subjective view that electric cars are better than cigarettes for over time. So I'm just, it's, I'm curious. I don't really know how or it feels like there's like the wizard of Oz making these decisions about, behind some sort of curtain about which of these companies qualify for their funds and which ones don't. And until we get more clarity on that and until, I don't know, it seems like the, the funds that actually, the companies that actually get included in some of those funds are companies that are doing more good. And even then it might not be in, in people's best interest as invest.

[Matt]

From a financial standpoint.

[Joel]

From a financial.

[Matt]

Yeah, like they might be checking all the boxes from a, from an ESG stand. Like maybe Philip Morris doesn't get to. Did they not change their name to Atria or whatever?

[Joel]

Oh, that might be true.

[Matt]

Maybe. I don't know. But regardless, I would say good for them because somehow they were able to kind of greenwash their way onto some, you know, one of these funds. And unfortunately, that's what it seems like a lot of these companies are trying to do.

[Joel]

Yeah. So when we're talking about complicating your investments, there's some things that might be worth it. Maybe you're saying, oh, the international stocks thing, that makes sense. And over time, I do think I want a little more exposure there. But on the ESG front, I don't think there's really any reason to complicate things further and basically sign yourself up for higher fees by socking more of your money into these ESG style index funds. Let's talk about something else that people might do to complicate their investing strategy. And that would be to incorporate more real estate into their investing plan. That's certainly a more complicated form of investing that we get asked about fairly regularly, especially because you and I, we are real estate investors. We're mom and pop real estate investors. We each own a handful of properties in the Atlanta area. And the thing is, we're kind of mostly talking about the passive style investing on this episode. And you and I, we think of real estate investing as more like taking on a part time job because it kind of is.

[Matt]

That's right.

[Joel]

Not only in the identifying and purchasing of that property, but in the managing of that property too. And so if you're not up for that, if you're not up for all of the extra work that it's going to take to own and manage that rental property, the fixes, the calls that you're going to have to get from the tenant, the things you're going to have to do to keep up with that property, you should avoid becoming a landlord. And like I said, this episode we're mostly talking about the simple forms of investing that most people are doing with every paycheck. Buying real estate is just this other ball of wax altogether. It's not a bad one. It's not something we would necessarily steer people away from. And in fact, we've done episodes in the past. We'll link to one or two in the show notes if you want, about investing in real estate and how it can be a powerful wealth builder. We're happy real estate investors ourselves. But the truth is there are other more passive ways to invest in real estate besides buying a duplex down the street in the town where you live or whatever. And so if you do want to add real estate exposure to your investments and you don't want to go with the part time job route. Matt, do you want to talk about maybe kind of some other ways to do that?

[Matt]

You can do that by investing in REITs. So that's how you say it, but it stands for real estate investment trusts. And so there are, there are public REITs, there are private REITs. And so we're not completely against the private ones, but they do come with higher fees and less liquidity. Oftentimes your money's locked up for years at a time. So because of that we avoid them ourselves. But even publicly traded REITs, they're kind of cool. They can give you some diverse exposure to real estate that you can easily dollar cost average into. You don't have to plunk down a large amount of cash, like $25,000 is oftentimes sort of like the, the minimum amount required to go into some of.

[Joel]

These private REITs during, like a cocktail hang or something, you can tell people, oh, I own an A.P. new York City, or I own this or that, because you have like this small amount, small sliver, but you do of investment in that project.

[Matt]

Like, yeah, I own some of Tesla because I own voo.

[Joel]

Yeah.

[Matt]

But some of the other REIT funds, like Vanguard's vnq, they are attractive because they're incredibly low cost. But still, even still, most folks, they don't need real estate exposure because the average American homeowner, they have most of their network tied up in their home, in their primary residence. And guess what, last I checked, that's real estate. So we would rather see that kind of person more focused on investing within stocks via index funds. And even if you don't own your own home and you're like, well, maybe I should be investing within a REIT. I don't own my own property. REITs, they actually make up about 5% of the total stock market. And so guess what? If you own a total stock market index fund, you're probably invested in a reit, but boom, you just didn't even realize it. You have, you own real estate, you didn't know it yet.

[Joel]

That's right. Even if you're a renter, you own some real estate via your other investments. And Matt, we hung out with somebody recently and he was asking about investing in real estate or passive income. And of course, we tried to dispel the myth that passive income is super easy to come by, but we even told, yeah, hey, investing in real estate might make sense for you. And we try to go through all the nitty gritty and all the details, but it's a harder thing for most people to accomplish. You have to save up a ton of. And the numbers don't always make sense. And they make sense a lot less in today's environment than they have than they did years ago. So it's harder for people to get into the real estate game. But that brings up one other way that you can invest in real estate, and that is syndication funds.

[Matt]

Syndication deals.

[Joel]

Yeah. So those are interesting too.

[Matt]

Super sexy.

[Joel]

Well, I think they get some press, especially on Instagram. I follow some real estate investors, and they're talking about syndication deals all the time. But there are good syndication deals and bad syndication deals. I'll define them real quick. Basically, just imagine someone buying an apartment complex. Well, it's really hard to do on your own. You get a group of investors to pool their money together to buy this apartment complex and then you start paying all the investors out as you profit from that apartment complex, doing well. The thing is typically you have to have big money to get in the game and you have to be an accredited investor, which means a net worth of $1 million or I think an annual income of $250,000 or something like that. It's hard to even qualify for that, much less save of lot a up the 50k that it would take to get in on that one syndication deal. And most people over complicating their lives and they're probably getting too real estate heavy in with their investments by partaking in a syndication deal. That's unless they have been like maxing out those retirement accounts for years and years and years and still they've got extra money and they just really want to go down this hole. There's also a lot of pitfalls investing in the syndication route. We're already seeing some of these syndication go bust. A lot of investors losing all their money. That doesn't happen in the stock market nearly to the same degree.

[Matt]

That's right. Yeah. I think a lot of folks just, they just want to be able to refer to themselves as syndicates because that has a nice ring to it as well. But that is one way that folks could potentially over complicate their investing lives. But how do you untie that knot? What is the simplest and easiest way for you to invest for your future? We will get to that right after this.

[Joel]

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[Matt]

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[Joel]

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[Matt]

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[Joel]

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[Matt]

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[Joel]

That's true. Yeah. But folks might be surprised to know that our last international TR trip was actually all about relaxing. Right? Instead of hoofing it, we went to the Dominican Republic. Sometimes doing less is exactly what you need. You need sun, sand, and no spreadsheets.

[Matt]

It's true. Yeah, it was great waking up to the water, unplugging, recharging. The whole vibe was just about slowing down. I think that could be the worst part of setting off on an overly ambitious trip is the fact that the amount of planning and the amount of logistics that goes into it, it can be a lot. That's why slowing down is sometimes exactly what you need. Finding that balance.

[Joel]

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[Matt]

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[Joel]

All right, Matt, let's keep talking about simple investing and some of the ways maybe we try to complicate those investments, some of which might make sense and others which don't make any sense at all. And I don't know, it makes me think about the game of life. You remember that game back in the day, you spin the wheel.

[Matt]

I never owned it, but I remember playing it.

[Joel]

Okay. And you got a different job, which had a different salary. You maybe had a family or maybe you stayed a bachelor. I mean, there's all these different choices you make along the way.

[Matt]

It's like the American rat race.

[Joel]

Yeah, exactly.

[Matt]

It's a negative way to. Way to see it.

[Joel]

Yeah, well, but there were so many different options. The same thing is true in the world of investing. Like, you can go down a bunch of different paths, which one makes sense for you might depend on, and largely does depend on individual circumstances. But I think even still, there's a lot of broad based advice that we can give. Simplicity is typically in the investing world, a better way to go. And it just makes me think of like all these super niche platforms that exist now. Like, you can invest in farmland, you can invest in wine, you can invest in whiskey, you can invest in. In crypto NFTs. And I mean, think about how have NFTs done over the past eight to 12 months? I mean, I think that first tweet of Jack Dorsey went for mega dollars, and now the guy can't even resell it. Right. And so I think, I think he did resell it, but for a whole lot less.

[Matt]

Yeah, for like pennies on the dollar.

[Joel]

Yeah, unfortunately, lost a lot.

[Matt]

Or fortunately. Because, like, if what we would not have wanted was for things to continue to spiral out of control and continue to.

[Joel]

But for that person. Poor them.

[Matt]

Yes, exactly.

[Joel]

But conveniently, we're hearing nothing, nothing, nothing about some of those categories these days. But we actually did a deep dive of some of those different online investing platforms back in episode 446, if you want to go back and listen. And we kind of covered the fees, but also the returns that you're likely to get on some of those things. And yeah, for most folks, all of these more vibrant, I'll say, ways of investing your money, they're just a massive distraction from the tried and true investing methods.

[Matt]

That's right. Yeah, if you're not maxing out your Roth IRA, if you're not maxing your 401k, socking away basically $30,000 annually into index funds within those tax advantaged accounts, then you shouldn't even be considering any of these alternative platforms where you can invest in whiskey or wine.

[Joel]

Like we were just talking about real estate and I think that that's the first thing I would push back on somebody who's looking to do that.

[Matt]

I would say, have you done all.

[Joel]

The boards, the low hanging fruit of those two accounts? Have you, Are you crushing it there? If so, we can talk about next steps. But if not, real estate probably shouldn't be a consideration.

[Matt]

Sure, yeah. I mean, if you've got money left over and you just love the novelty of it, then like it's not the worst thing in the world that you could dip your toes into. But most people who are investing in some of these random ways that have popped up in the past few years, they're just reducing their meat and potatoes style investing. And that's what we are trying to make sure that folks are taking care of first in order to funnel dollars into this direction. That's what we don't want folks to do. They're getting distracted from the like the bigger prize. And, and honestly, like this is to point out that most of the things that we've talked about aren't necessarily inherently bad investments, except for like crypto and NFTs, but like some of these other platforms, they're still investments. It's not like they're MLMs or anything like that where you're totally going to get scammed. It's just that there are other priorities that we want you to focus on first. If the alternative is to mindlessly blow that money is to mindlessly consume, then I might even say, okay, well maybe, yeah, maybe you should invest in this platform if that's, if that keeps you from blowing money that you otherwise would have invested. I think maybe in that scenario it could actually make sense. But we just want to make sure that you are eating your veggies, your meat and potatoes first before you start focusing on the exotic desserts off to the side.

[Joel]

I think that's a good way of putting it. It's not that these things are inherently bad, although maybe NFTs are, but like.

[Matt]

NFTs and crypto, yet to be determined.

[Joel]

Some of these sites, like I don't mind that their existence.

[Matt]

Yeah, exactly.

[Joel]

It's just that they are for investors who are doing, doing the right thing with a ton of their income before even thinking about crossing the threshold into investing in some of the random things you can invest in now online. And let's talk about hiring an advisor for a second, Matt. I think that's something that the people might think that is either going to help them uncomplicate their finances or they think it might bring more complication, but they think it might bring some necessary complication to their life. And it's not that we think that hiring a human is a bad idea. Right. That a financial advisor can't steer you in the right direction, can't give you good advice.

[Matt]

We like humans, we like people mostly. It's not all about AI. We're not doubling down.

[Joel]

Right. If human advisors were less expensive, I think it can make sense for more people, but for everyday folks, again, I think the hiring an advisor question, that pursuit can be a deviation from what they should really be focused on focusing on. If you're barely snagging the match in your 401k, you just don't need to spend hundreds or thousands of dollars to get advice from a professional.

[Matt]

That's something that you can do before you talk to a professional.

[Joel]

Right? Right. It would be, it would be so much better to funnel that money into those accounts, more money into those accounts to grow for your future. I think an advisor makes sense for some folks whose situation is getting more complicated. But even then, we want folks to only consider fee only financial planners. XY Planning Network is probably the best site out there to find one of those. But I think people, people like, they start to learn about money and they're like, oh, must be time to hire the advisor.

[Matt]

I need a guy.

[Joel]

Yeah, I need a girl. The truth is, you probably don't unless you're crushing it. You've been crushing it for years on end.

[Matt]

Yeah. And I would say based on the fact that you, if you are hearing us say this, that means you're listening to the podcast, which means like, that tells me that I think you are the kind of person who's going to proactively take charge of your finances. And I think that that's a good thing because what we don't want are folks to just by default thinking like, basically, I don't want you to be like me. When I got my first real job and started earning money. I don't know if I've ever actually talked about this on the show.

[Joel]

I want to share a new podcast slogan. Don't be like Matt.

[Matt]

Don't be like Matt. But I went down, I was like, oh, man, I'm earning real money now. I'm gonna go talk to this Edward Jones guy. And so I walked down to. Walked up, you know, drove down the street and went in there and started talking to him. But even at that point, I realized this seems pretty expensive. And I think I can do what you're talking about without paying you. And I actually just looked this up. Cause I was curious what they charge on the first $250,000. They charge 1.35%. Wow, that is expensive, man. And especially for somebody who is just getting started with their investing, that is not a fee that they need to be. They need to be paying. But so one of the ways around hiring an actual person are. Is AI. It is the. All the robo advisors out there. And some folks would say that, you know, this is a happy medium for a lot of folks. Folks. But are those a good choice? And what would make someone opt to go in that direction? And this is the second time we've referenced Monday's episode, but we talked about the tax lost harvesting abilities of a robo advisor, like betterment, which we would say it's probably one of the best ones out there. It might be the best of the bunch within the robo advising category. And this is largely because of the, like, the behavioral finance elements that they've built into the service where they're able to help folks to stay the course.

[Joel]

It's not like they offer. Offer superior fund choices or anything like that.

[Matt]

There's no secret sauce.

[Joel]

Right. It's those kind of advisory elements that they will they help you stay the course, which is really important. That's one of the best things an advisor can do, right?

[Matt]

Yeah. And well, then they actually do have advisors. And so like, their fees range from like 0.25% for kind of like their standard digital plan, but if you pay a little bit more, 0.4%, which I don't like seeing, but with that premium service, you get access to professional financial planners, actual CFPs, which can go a long way when it comes to. To, you know, planning out your finances.

[Joel]

When you think about. When you compare it to something like Edward Jones that you just mentioned, that's.

[Matt]

A third of the price you're shaving an entire point.

[Joel]

Yeah.

[Matt]

For 100 points, a full percentage point.

[Joel]

It seems like it seems like a pretty good deal. What do you think about it on those terms?

[Matt]

Yeah, you're paying a little more certainly for a robo advisor than if you were to be doing it yourself, but it's still pretty inexpensive. Compared to hiring a traditional human advisor and no, hate to all the. Those Edward Jones folks out there.

[Joel]

Yeah, no, I mean some people want that, I guess, but like that's not our jam and that's not what we recommend people do.

[Matt]

It's a different. Yeah, it's a different service. And some folks kind of want that assistance. They want to sit down in person, you know, going through that whole thing.

[Joel]

I think if you're going to go the robo advisor direction, like, I don't know, I think betterments. Yeah. Is one of the best. And that combo of human advice with the kind of robo platform helping you on the tax front and on the advice front, I think it's pretty cool. Cool. And for some people it's worth paying the extra money. But let's talk about Matt, just kind of some guidelines, some basics. When we talk about simplification of investing and how over complicating things. And of course there are a million ways that you can complicate your investing strategy, but we really believe that it doesn't need to be, it shouldn't have to be, and it shouldn't be terribly complicated. And I think the more complicated you make it, the less likely people are to partake in that action. Right. When you say there's 10 hoops to jump through, people are going to just walk away before they start. When the belief is that investing is hard, a lot of folks decide to skip out altogether. And so that does so much more harm than maybe not having quite enough international exposure or missing out on some years where real estate had super good returns. Something like that. Doing the thing, even doing it imperfectly and doing it regularly is the key. It comes down to the crux of the matter is don't let perfect be the enemy of good. If you're trying to, you're just starting out and you're like, I want to invest the exact right way, the perfect way for future returns, and the perfect ways that I stay the course. I mean, I think my advice would be get started and then continue learning. And you can iterate over time if you want. But simplicity is better than perfection.

[Matt]

So this kind of makes me think of why I don't necessarily like talking about my budget and the fact that we've made it available, which I guess I'm doing that by even sharing this example. But the reason I don't necessarily like pushing it out there for folks is because it's too complicated for most folks. It's not something that, especially if you've never budgeted before this shouldn't be your first step towards tracking your expenses and budgeting for the month. And so in a similar way, we want folks to be successful rather than having all the I's dotted, all the T's crossed and everything is perfect where you end up kind of falling off the wagon. And so we want folks to opt for what we would call a minimum minimalist portfolio. We've always said that a total stock market or an S&P 500 fund, it gets folks who are in the wealth building phase of their lives basically what it is that they need without overthinking it. And target date funds, they are another great set it and forget it approach for money that you're stocking away inside of your retirement accounts. And so it's not that you can't diversify further. If you wanted to, say, add some. A little more, more real estate exposure via a reit, if you want to do that, that's great. You do you. It's just that the minimalist route, investing within a single fund or maybe two that are already well diversified, this is an effective strategy that will get you where it is that you want to be.

[Joel]

Yeah, man, I love that. I like the idea of just keeping it as simple as possible, keeping it minimalist, and then doing the right thing over and over. Right. So the next thing we mentioned is to have that place and then stick to it because the best plan is something that you can stick to. And it's easy to make complicated plans, but it's easier to break those plans too, because you're like, wait a second, I got to step three. There's 30 more steps. I'm just going to bow out right now. And that's what makes like, makes me think of the app couch to 5K. Heard someone talking about that recently and how it changed their life. They were nervous to start running, running, but with that app, it specifically, it like slowly changes the amount of time where you're running and walking so you don't feel overwhelmed after two days of, you're like, if you try to go run a 5K and you've been like, haven't run at all in years, good luck, right? You're probably gonna get demoralized. But if you take this couch to 5k route and you try to build up over, I don't know, the course of something like three months, you are in all likelihood gonna run an awesome 5k.

[Matt]

Sounds like a recipe for success.

[Joel]

Heck, you might even keep going, go 10k pretty soon. Right? But yeah, so. So the same is True. With your investments, the most important thing is shoveling money into those retirement accounts, consistently getting those dollars invested in a diversified manner. So come up with a plan, and hopefully that plan is minimalist in nature, and then stick to it, do it regularly, do it religiously. That's where dollar cost averaging comes in. Right. If you just kind of keep doing it with every paycheck, then without overthinking it, without overthinking it, you're going to be ahead, vastly ahead of the majority of your peers on the investing front.

[Matt]

Yeah. And so you said kind of shoveling money into those accounts, which makes me think of the fact that especially early on, when you are just getting started with your investing, when you see fluctuations in the market, and especially like we've seen over the past several weeks, we've seen a booming market, if you are just getting started with your investments, you're not going to see much change when it comes to the size of your portfolio because you're just getting started. Truly, what has the biggest impact, what moves the needle the most is your savings rate and how much money you are able to sock away versus, you know, we've been investing for like 10, 15, like coming up on 20 years and we've got bigger nest eggs. That's the bottom line than when we started investing 15, 20 years ago.

[Joel]

Yeah.

[Matt]

And now when the market goes up, it's a little more fun. Right. Like, it's a little more fun to see the balances increase a little bit when you check it at the end of the month. But that would not have happened if we weren't sacrificing, cutting back on expenses, finding ways to invest more while we were younger. Basically, you kind of have to pay your dues a little bit. And once that nest egg gets to be a certain size, well, market fluctuations and a growing market, that's when you get to see the beauty of compounding returns. Because compounding returns and interest doesn't make a huge dent in those early years. On the back end is when you.

[Joel]

Start to see that you can totally split hairs about how much money you've got allocated to international, how much exposure you have to real estate, whether or not you're investing in vintage wines, whatever. I mean, you can split hairs over all that stuff and what the exact right percentage is for every single thing. Do I need more small cap value in my portfolio? Blahdy blahdy, blah. And it's not that those conversations are completely worthless, but you're right. Like the biggest change that we can make most easily that comes with the less stress and the most likelihood of follow through is to keep it simple and to just ramp up the percentage that we're dedicated to each and every month. Each and every paycheck to those accounts, like that is the spigot that we can turn on the most that's going to lead to the largest growth in nest egg. You can try to get that perfect allocation, create the most diverse investment account possible, but the reality is then you're probably not quite as focused on that more important lever. And ultimately, yeah, you might have the most diverse portfolio on earth, but you're the perfectly diverse portfolio. But you're missing out then on the most important thing. It's kind of like what we talked about back in not too long ago with frugality, how it has diminishing returns.

[Matt]

Same thing, people.

[Joel]

If you're so focused on frugality, you're probably not going to be as, as thoughtful about ramping up your income. And this is true too. I think the more you think about how your portfolio is allocated, boom, you've lost the plot and you're focused too much on the little things. You're majoring on the minors. That's right.

[Matt]

Yeah. And then, and finally too, I mean, so one of the reasons we're talking about this today is because of the timeliness of it, right? So as the market is booming and we've seen some, you know, fluctuation recently, but folks, it becomes something that folks want to talk about more. And what we want to encourage you to do is like, once you do have this plan, you've heard us talk through, hey, maybe you should just be looking at a total stock market index fund or an S&P 500 index fund or maybe a target date fund. Once you have that plan, ignore everything else. We want you to put the blinders on. We want you to limit the noise, especially when it comes to, to the different headlines that you read. But when the market is tanking, folks are like, you batten down the hatches, right? Like, you are not interested in taking some of these risks. But like you were saying earlier, Joel, when things are booming, everybody feels brilliant, everybody feels rich. And they're thinking, oh, what else can I do in order to make this ride last even longer, basically. And that is the opposite of what you actually should be doing. And so while everyone else is out there figuring out different ways that they can invest in the latest sexy thing, who knows what the next iteration of distracting investment opportunities are going to come down the pipe, right?

[Joel]

They'll come.

[Matt]

Oh, they Absolutely will. But they are not things that you need to be paying attention to. And so, yeah, we wanted to talk about the different ways that you can simplify how it is that you invest. And truly, it does not need to be all that complicated.

[Joel]

Agreed. And simple doesn't mean unsophisticated. Right. Simple can still be. Be diverse and it can give you exactly what you need without overthinking it.

[Matt]

If you think the s and P500 index fund or the Total Stock Market index Fund is unsophisticated, log into all of the different companies that make up that that fund consists of you to see.

[Joel]

And go back and listen maybe to our episode with Robin Wigglesworth about his book Trillions and how Jack Bogle kind of really started the index fund movement and it's been a powerful one since. So, yeah, it's. Investing is the one thing where the more effort you put in, the worse your returns get, typically. So simplicity makes a whole lot of sense.

[Matt]

Yeah, we'll link to that interview as well.

[Joel]

Yeah. All right, Matt, let's mention. Let's get back to the beer we had. This one is called Symptom of Progeny. It's a golden sour ale fermented with spontaneous culture. What were your thoughts on this one?

[Matt]

I really like it. What do you think about it?

[Joel]

I really like it. I'll say it's like brightly tart. It's got. That's real crisp. I know. There's no fruit in this. It's got peach fuzz elements.

[Matt]

Oh, yeah.

[Joel]

Big time, dude.

[Matt]

So, truly, I was curious because we've been drinking some really big, really sweet stouts from Burial recently. And because of that, this one almost seems like a touch too tart. But I think it's because of all the sweet beers that we've been drinking like this, it's still such a bright, crisp, refreshing, perfectly aged, perfectly oaky golden ale. It's exactly what I want out of a golden ale. And it's. There's. I mean, there's a good reason why Kate and I, we picked up several bottles of this to bring back home to enjoy because we certainly enjoyed this one.

[Joel]

Yeah. It just makes me think Burial does some of the best beers in every genre.

[Matt]

Yeah, I know. Yeah. Before, we were talking about just how they're crushing it. They crush it with their. Their New England hazies and obviously their stouts that we've been enjoying recently. But yes, this is a barrel aged sour.

[Joel]

Wait, do they make bad beers? I don't think so.

[Matt]

Not completely knock out of the park.

[Joel]

Yeah, for sure. All right, that's gonna do it for this episode. You can find links to some of the stuff we mentioned up on the show notes at our website, howtomoney.com and of course, you can sign up for our our how to Money newsletter. One came out just yesterday. You missed it. But you'll make the next one if you go sign [e-mail] newsletter or you.

[Matt]

Didn'T miss it because you're one of the select few. You're one of the chosen.

[Joel]

No, it's growing. It's a growing list. There's a lot of people on there. But we just want.

[Matt]

We're not selective. Everybody to get anybody and everybody the.

[Joel]

Free glory that is the how to Money newsletter.

[Matt]

But that's right, man. All right, so that's gonna be it for this one. Until next time, best friends out. Best friends out.

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[Joel]

This technology is already solving so many cases.

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Listen to America's Crime Lab on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

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We're breaking down SummerSlam, the biggest party of the summer on Wrestling with Freddy. From our bold picks to storyline breakdowns, we will discuss who walks out with gold old, who shocks the night and which matches steal the show we call the winners, the upsets and the chaos to expect. Plus whatever swerves nobody saw coming. Listen to Wrestling with Freddy as part of the Michael Tura Podcast Network, available on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

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I'm Dr. Joy Hardin Bradford, host of the Therapy for Black Girls podcast. I know how overwhelming it can feel if flying makes you anxious. In session 418 of the Therapy for Black Girls podcast, Dr. Angela Neal Barnett and I discuss flight anxiety. What is not normal is to allow it to prevent you from doing the things that you want to do, the things that you were meant to do. Listen to Therapy for black Girls on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. This is an iheart pod.