Jesus Christ Super-Saver: Ancient Wisdom & Your Money (Bestie Ep) #1018

Summary

Podcast Summary: How to Money – "Jesus Christ Super-Saver: Ancient Wisdom & Your Money (Bestie Ep) #1018"

Release Date: August 4, 2025

Hosts: Joel and Matt
Produced by: iHeartPodcasts
Podcast Description:
Best friends Joel and Matt co-host How to Money, a podcast dedicated to equipping everyday people with the knowledge and tools needed to thrive financially. Topics range from debt payoff and DIY investing to essential money hacks, all delivered in an unbiased and jargon-free manner. The podcast emphasizes purposeful money management tailored to individual lifestyles, aiming to help listeners lead rich, fulfilling lives.

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1. Introduction to the Episode

In Episode #1018, titled "Jesus Christ Super-Saver: Ancient Wisdom & Your Money (Bestie Ep)," Joel and Matt delve into the intersection of ancient wisdom and modern personal finance. Drawing inspiration from timeless teachings, they explore how age-old principles can inform contemporary money management practices.

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2. Embracing Ancient Wisdom in Modern Finance

Joel:
"Who it is that you listen to will determine who it is that you become. And so if you're listening to Joel and Matt talk about money, I think there's a good chance you're going to end up in a similar place as us, at least financially speaking."
[03:28]

Joel and Matt emphasize the profound impact that the sources of our financial advice have on our financial destinies. By revisiting ancient wisdom, they argue, listeners can gain insights that have withstood the test of time, offering stability amidst the ever-evolving landscape of modern financial advice.

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3. Key Proverbs and Their Modern Applications

Proverbs 16:18 – The Perils of Pride

Matt:
"Pride goes before destruction, a haughty spirit before the fall."
[23:38]

The hosts discuss how excessive pride can hinder financial success. They highlight the importance of humility, especially in investing, where recognizing the limits of one's knowledge can prevent costly mistakes.

Modern Example:
Referencing Kanye West's reluctance to accept advice from less wealthy individuals, Joel illustrates how pride can lead to poor financial decisions and strained relationships.

Proverbs 22:1 & 7 – Reputation Over Wealth and the Burden of Debt

Proverbs 22:1:
"A good name is more desirable than great riches. To be esteemed is better than silver or gold."
[26:21]

Proverbs 22:7:
"The rich rule over the poor, and the borrower is slave to the lender."
[29:33]

Joel and Matt discuss the value of reputation over material wealth, emphasizing that a solid reputation fosters long-term success and fulfillment. They also delve into the dangers of excessive debt, explaining how borrowing can lead to financial servitude and cognitive decline, citing studies that link high debt levels to reduced IQ scores.

Practical Takeaway:
Prioritize building a good reputation and manage debt responsibly to maintain financial independence and mental sharpness.

Proverbs 21:17 – The Costs of Indulgence

Matt:
"Whoever loves pleasure will become poor. Whoever loves wine and olive oil will never be rich."
[33:02]

The hosts interpret this proverb as a caution against overindulgence in luxuries. While enjoying quality items is encouraged, they warn against allowing such desires to spiral into financial irresponsibility.

Real-World Parallel:
The discussion touches on the Diderot Effect, where acquiring a single luxury item can lead to a cascade of subsequent purchases, ultimately exhausting one's finances.

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4. Stoic Philosophy and Personal Finance

Epictetus:
"Wealth consists not in having great possessions, but in having few wants."

Seneca:
"Contented poverty is an honorable estate."
[31:49]

Joel and Matt explore Stoic teachings, emphasizing contentment and the reduction of desires as pathways to true wealth. They argue that cultivating satisfaction with what one has can lead to greater financial and personal well-being.

Key Insights:

• Minimalism in Spending: Focusing on essential expenditures rather than accumulating unnecessary possessions.
• Resilience: Building financial habits that withstand economic fluctuations by emphasizing contentment over abundance.

Modern Application:
Implementing minimalist principles can help individuals prioritize spending on quality over quantity, leading to more sustainable financial practices.

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5. Quality Over Quantity: Investing in Longevity

Seneca:
"It is not the man who has too little, but the man who craves more, that is poor."

The hosts advocate for investing in high-quality items that offer longevity, drawing comparisons between durable antique furniture and transient IKEA products. This principle extends beyond material goods to encompass relationships and personal investments.

Practical Advice:

• Selective Spending: Choose purchases that offer lasting value, reducing the need for frequent replacements.
• Investing in Relationships: Prioritize deep, meaningful connections over a multitude of superficial acquaintances.

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6. The Balance Between Saving and Enjoying Wealth

Joel and Matt discuss the importance of finding a balance between saving for the future and enjoying the present. They caution against deferring all gratitude and enjoyment in pursuit of financial goals, advocating instead for a balanced approach that allows for both security and fulfillment.

Key Quote:
"Money is not inherently virtuous. It is a completely passive tool."
[17:36]

Understanding money as a tool rather than a goal can help individuals use it to enhance their lives without becoming enslaved by it.

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7. Practical Applications and Takeaways

• Debt Management: Use debt strategically, avoiding excessive borrowing that can lead to financial and cognitive strain.
• Contentment: Cultivate satisfaction with current possessions and financial status to foster long-term well-being.
• Quality Investments: Prioritize high-quality purchases and investments that offer durability and lasting value.
• Humility in Finance: Remain open to advice and diverse perspectives to enhance financial decision-making.
• Balanced Spending: Enjoy life's pleasures without allowing them to derail financial stability.

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8. Conclusion

In this episode, Joel and Matt successfully bridge ancient wisdom with modern financial practices, offering listeners timeless strategies for managing money effectively. By drawing from biblical proverbs and Stoic philosophy, they provide a rich framework for achieving financial resilience, contentment, and integrity.

Notable Endnote:
The hosts conclude with reflections on how ancient teachings remain relevant, urging listeners to incorporate these enduring principles into their financial journeys to lead more balanced and fulfilling lives.

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Notable Quotes:

• Joel:
  "Who it is that you listen to will determine who it is that you become."
  [03:28]

• Matt:
  "The borrower is servant to the lender."
  [29:33]

• Seneca:
  "Contented poverty is an honorable estate."
  [31:49]

• Epictetus:
  "Wealth consists not in having great possessions, but in having few wants."
  [42:10]

---

This comprehensive summary encapsulates the essence of Episode #1018, providing valuable insights and actionable advice for listeners seeking to intertwine ancient wisdom with modern financial strategies.

Transcript

[A]

This is an iHeart podcast.

[B]

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[A]

What's going on buddy?

[B]

Hey man. So we're almost back.

[A]

We just spent like 15 minutes recapping all the countless stories that we have regarding our travels. The good and the bad to each.

[B]

Other, not to our audience.

[A]

But what's, what's funny is that we had to. We needed to jump back into the office to record a couple ad spots. We're just, you know, we're trying to be team players there for the network. It's tough to go MIA for multiple weeks.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

But we are.

[A]

We figured, hey, how about a quick little intro?

[B]

The honest truth is nothing has happened while we were gone. No big bills have passed. No. Fascinating. I think the whole personal finance hit.

[A]

Pause while we're gone. Right? Doesn't the world revolve around how to money?

[B]

There's there's so much to discuss upon our return, which comes Wednesday. So if you're listening to this now, this is our last bestie and we look forward to being back with you. And actually, Wednesday's episode is going to be a recap of our sabbatical, what we've learned, what we've taken away from this time off. Matt, I know for you it's been restorative for me too.

[A]

So I'm looking forward to it, man.

[B]

A lot of interesting insights that I'm looking forward to discussing with our audience on Wednesday. Welcome to how to Money. I'm Joel.

[A]

And I am Matt.

[B]

And today we're talking about Jesus Christ, super saver, ancient wisdom, and your money.

[A]

So this is not our Andrew Lloyd Webber version of 70s rock play, or did you. Have you ever seen Jesus Christ Superstar?

[B]

I have never seen it, somehow, but.

[A]

It is a good one.

[B]

We took inspiration from that title for this episode.

[A]

Absolutely. And okay, so, like, not to launch into the proverbial phrases too soon, but who it is that you listen to will determine who it is that you become. And so if you're listening, listening to our podcast, you listen to Joel and Matt talk about money, I think there's a good chance you're going to end up in a. Maybe in a similar place as us, at least financially speaking, compared to the rest of the world.

[B]

Right.

[A]

Like, certainly there are going to be differences between our finances and your finances, but who it is that we listen to, what we fill our minds with, truly does have a massive impact, like.

[B]

My mom, on our future.

[A]

Garbage and garbage out of these things that determine your future. And so that's why we're essentially, like, revisiting some of these seriously ancient truths. And specifically, we're going to look at how it is that they pertain to your money. We're going to talk about the moves that you can make and how this ancient wisdom can inform those moves.

[B]

Yeah. And we're going to tap some biblical wisdom. We're going to tap some of the stoics.

[A]

That's the Jesus Christ part.

[B]

Exactly, exactly. And we're going to go.

[A]

I thought about doing, like, we're going.

[B]

To get Old Testament with Jesus Christ.

[A]

Buddha, and a stoic walk into a bar. But we figured that started getting a little too long. That was a little more heretical as well.

[B]

Another title idea for this episode, but I like what we went with, but yeah. So hopefully in today's episode, we'll cover a bunch of ground. And I think, Matt, especially in a time where we rely on lot of modern wisdom. Well, we thought it could be helpful to bring out some ancient wisdom at the same time.

[A]

That's right, man. Okay, real quick, I've got a frugal or cheap for you. A couple weeks ago, some friends of ours were throwing a party. And this was an adults only party, so no kids allowed. So this was after you put the kids down to bed kind of thing? Oh, yeah, No, I was definitely looking forward to it.

[B]

One of those creepy Tom Cruise parties, is it?

[A]

No, not that kind of. Not an eyes Wide shut whatever party, but a normal grownups adult party. And specifically, I failed to mention this. These were some neighbors of ours directly across the street. And this raised the question as to whether or not we should get a babysitter. Maybe it led to a discussion. It wasn't an all out argument, but we got close. We were discussing it and I felt that because it was gonna just be across the street and because we have an older daughter now, that it was gonna be totally fine for us to put the kids down, walk across the street. Literally. We're gonna. My idea was let's set up an iPad and if anything comes up, they can just FaceTime us. They all know how to use the iPad. But you see where this is going. Kate disagreed with me. So what are your thoughts? Do you feel that I was being frugal or cheap by counting on our kids to report if there was anything going on?

[B]

Oh, well, I don't know, man. I'm somewhere in the middle. I think probably it's frugal. I think if you're across the street, I think you can buy without a babysitter. Especially since you a nine year old who's smart, she's pretty good.

[A]

I mean, all the kids are pretty smart.

[B]

Hold down the fort.

[A]

And plus, if it was like a real emergency and let's say the technology failed, they could just like run across the street. Like literally. We were right there. Kate disagreed. And I think she knew before we ended the COVID Like, we never reached a conclusion. And then the next time I brought it up, she was like, oh, we've got a babysitter. And I mean, truly, in the end, I was like, all right, that's fine. I was willing to pay a babysitter because it meant that she was gonna be able to relax, maybe have just a better time. But that also kind of raises another question. At what age would you feel comfortable leaving your oldest to, like you said, hold down the fort? Not necessarily just within the neighborhood, because.

[B]

It depends on distance. It depends how Long you're gonna be gone. Because I would trust her now, probably going across the street for an hour. Cause she would know where we were. But part of it, I don't know what age, because so much of it depends on how mature she is an individual. And so how do I trust her circumstances with her younger siblings, especially as they grow up? Like, can they listen to her? And will they. Will they obey? So, well, I don't know. But I will say, you guys, you did mention that you expanded your budget for babysitting services, which I think is. Which I think is smart. That you've basically called out in your budget. You've prioritized being able to go out, the two of you. And so you probably wish you would have used it on different sort of date.

[A]

You kind of think that there's a way that you can do both at the same time. Because I see the ability to, A, hang out with some friends and B, also not spend the money because they're just right there. And again, this was. We would have put them down. So they would have been, for the most part, especially the younger ones, either asleep or just reading quietly in their bed as they peacefully drifted off to sleep while we were hanging out across the street.

[B]

I think the other right thing to do is if it's that big of a deal to your significant other, you.

[A]

And it was.

[B]

Yeah, all right, I guess. Well, I'm not going to be. It would be cheap then, because it would make her upset and she would not be able to enjoy her time. And so, yeah, you got to think about that as well. Not just whether you feel comfortable with it, but whether they feel comfortable with it.

[A]

Your partner. Your partner as well, I think. Yeah. Speaking of ancient wisdom, better defer to your partner. Refer to your spouse.

[B]

What? Happy wife, happy life is always what I've heard.

[A]

But that sounds old school.

[B]

But it has some truth to it.

[A]

Yeah, it does. This is called Sour Pipe Project Apricot Crumble. This is a beer by Vitamin C Brewing. And it's not vitamin C as in, like, vitamin A, B, vitamin C. It's vitamin C as in vitamin ocean. And so I'm looking forward to this brewery who happens to be located by the ocean. We'll share our thoughts at the end of the episode.

[B]

Very nice. All right. Yeah, I'm looking forward to checking this out. Anything that beer that tastes like a pie, I want to try it.

[A]

Fruited sours, lactose or pastry sours in particular. Yep, looking forward to it.

[B]

All right, well, Matt, let's move on. Let's get to the subject at hand. We are talking about ancient wisdom in this episode. And as I thought about this, I was thinking, what is it today that most of us use somewhat regularly, but it falls short of kind of what we're used to? Maybe quality has gone down the hill and kind of made me think of IKEA for some reason. Like I thought you were going to say lead pipes.

[A]

They don't make them like they used to.

[B]

That's true. The brass knuckles, they're not, you know, quite as thick as they used to be.

[A]

Well, brass knuckles, I'm not thinking, I'm not talking about like gang fights. I'm thinking about like actual pipes.

[B]

Oh, in your plumbing.

[A]

I was making a joke because lead pipes were terrible.

[B]

Yeah, they were. I thought you were like talking about.

[A]

All those fighting chains, slamming someone over the head with one, but you got your mind on. What was that motorcycle game? Road Rash, Sega Genesis. That's the kind of lead pipe you're thinking of.

[B]

That's exactly what I was thinking of. I don't know why, but yeah, he chose violence. But I'm thinking about ikea and I'm thinking like we have a few IKEA pieces in our house. Mostly we do too, for storage in our kids room. They're basically like the cheap bookshelves. Right? But nothing I've encountered in IKEA as I'm walking through there has ever come close to the beauty and the sturdiness that our favorite antique furniture pieces that we have in our house possess. Right. I love my Brazilian rosewood table.

[A]

Oh, fancy.

[B]

Yeah, we have a mid century teak desk.

[A]

I didn't know you're so wealthy, Joel.

[B]

They're not even terribly expensive. We have 70 year old walnut dressers.

[A]

Matthew, you're just bragging now.

[B]

A life of opulence. Yes, it's true.

[A]

Rich mahogany, the smell of leather.

[B]

Yes. But these are pieces we planned to have forever. And they were not even terribly expensive pieces to begin with. But they're a far cry from, let's say the IKEA wardrobe that crumbled when we tried to move it that one time. I swear we paid $50 for that. It lasted for a couple years in the house. We tried to move it and it basically disintegrated in front of our eyes. That could just evaporate.

[A]

Where did it go?

[B]

Teleported to another realm.

[A]

It's like the Snap Thanos.

[B]

Right, well, and that could just be maybe because our skills with an allen wrench aren't very good. And so it lasts for a Minute. But I don't know, I think it made me think that no one really ever gets jazzed about inheriting their parents Kallax shelving unit or something like that. Right. But that 100-year-old mahogany chest, that's a different story. It's like this family heirloom and the way it's crafted and made is you might be thrilled to get that one of these days. And I think the same is true when it comes to modern advice. Right. There's some. There's some good stuff out there, but the best of it is actually based on ancient wisdom that has stood the test of time. And so we want to really talk about older money advice that's been around for hundreds and hundreds of years. Delve into that and see maybe what it has to say to us today. Yeah, yeah.

[A]

So, okay, I'm not on TikTok, but I've seen some of the videos that are. That are out there that masquerade as financial advice that's floating around there on the platform, out there in the ether. And if you are only listening to folks on TikTok, for instance, there's a lot of wisdom that you're missing out on when we only pay attention to influencers on some of the different social media platforms. And that's not to say that there aren't solid folks out there who are doing decent work in the short form format. There definitely are. But the best wisdom, the best advice stands the test of time, like you said. And, you know, we're not just picking on social media as well. There's crappy financial advice even in legacy media, you know, like the more traditional forms of media, even in some of.

[B]

The bigger papers, TV papers, blogs, there's.

[A]

Bad books out there as well. Just because you get a publishing deal or you self publish, that doesn't necessarily mean that there is good advice within that book, within that text. So in today's episode, we're gonna. We're gonna be pulling from the Bible, we're gonna be talking about stoicism and just some of these other wisdom traditions from hundreds to thousands of years before time. And then we'll connect that ancient wisdom to like a modern implementation in order to help you to determine what it is that you should be doing with your money.

[B]

Yeah, and you just mentioned books, Matt. And it makes me think like, most of the books that people read these days are actually new books, yet we have so many rich books from years and years and years ago that we just never even touch. I subscribe to this newsletter, actually it's called Read More Books and this guy Jeremy Anderberg runs it and he reads 100 plus books a year. And so I just kind of want to. As somebody who's an avid reader who writes a newsletter about it, I'm constantly curious, well, what is it that he's writt and maybe is there something worth reading for me? And he just wrote a top 10 list that includes some of his takeaways from having read more than 1,000 books, which is impressive. And one suggestion that he gave, which I thought was just helpful, was to not read the new shiny books that get marketed to us to spend more time with the classics. I think he's spot on there. I couldn't agree more. I think the same is true when it comes to helpful thoughts on money. There are, like you admitted, Matt, some great personal finance influencers giving really helpful advice on some of the socials, on Twitter, on Instagram, whatever it is. But the more we can incorporate ancient wisdom alongside folks who are good at translating it for modern ears, the more thorough our understanding and connection to this subject that has this massive impact, this massive influence on all of us is going to be.

[A]

And it's not necessarily that old books are automatically good or wise or better. It's important to be they are automatically dustier. But we want folks to be thoughtful about which ancient wisdom texts that we look at, that we read, that we listen to. Makes me think about a book that we've been checking out that came out recently called Superabundance. Speaking of newer books. This is a newer book, but it's a quality book and it's pretty nerdy. It's written by two economists, but at the beginning of the book they're basically going through some of these different economists views of how humanity would progress over the. And these are predictions that were made like, I mean, hundreds of years ago, 16, 1700 stuff. Yeah, yeah. Most of them were way off. We're seriously off. And they often thought that the earth was becoming overpopulated and that we would basically run out of resources, that civilization would collapse. And that's often referred to as the Malthusian view because Thomas Robert Malthus, perhaps, I think that's his middle name. He was the most famous person arguing from that vantage point. But this, you know, this book is all about just how wrong his views have come to be over the years. You know, instead of fewer resources, we got Malthusian refutation. Yes, yeah, we've got more resources these days. Instead of fewer calories per person that are available to Us now, food is, it's widely plentiful, even if some of those resources aren't being properly matched to those who need it in the immediate short term. I could go on and on. Human ingenuity has just proven to overcome these resource limitations. And so, you know, while we are certainly critical of a lot of the modern advice that is dispensed today, it's important to question the validity of old advice as well. Don't just take it as canon.

[B]

Don't.

[A]

Don't just take it as, you know, truth just because it was written two, three hundred plus years ago.

[B]

Yeah. And in fact, depending on what topic you're delving into, there's probably a lot that's changed scientifically, geographically, like our understanding of a lot of things that we've developed. And so you don't want to go back that far.

[A]

But yeah, if you're a doctor, don't look back at some of the old texts of like bloodletting, how that should be something that we don't go watch.

[B]

The nick and then perform surgery like that. Like that's not, that's probably not a good approach. But one of the reasons that ancient wisdom often holds up is because even though the times have changed, human nature hasn't. And even though our financial systems and the products that are available to us wouldn't have been recognizable even just a couple hundred years ago, the emotions that humans possess remain just as true and consistent as ever. Even though there are better tools at our disposal, we still have a hard time using them appropriately and effectively because scarcity, jealousy, greed, like people were dealing with all those things, all those emotions thousands of years ago. But it's not like we've been able to eradicate them in any way, form or fashion like we're still dealing with them today just as much, if not more so. And so, yeah, some things never change because human nature never really changes. And this is also why we're able to take a neutral stance when it comes to, you know, whether or not something like money is a good or bad thing. Right. It's, it's not inherently either one of those things because it comes down to what the individual is doing with that money. You can, you can use the tool for good or for bad, but it all comes down really to how you wield it.

[A]

That's right, yeah. Money is not inherently virtuous. Right. It is a completely passive tool. So we're going to go back even further though, than just some of the economists and predictions that were made a few hundred years ago, we're going to go back further. We're going to focus less on economists and their ilk. We're more interested in these time tested passages from literally from millennia past that rang true then, but also have a similar resonance today. We're going to talk about how those truths apply to your money. We'll get to that right after this break.

[B]

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[A]

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[B]

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[A]

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[B]

That's guardianbikes.com built in the USA, made specifically for kids. Guardianbikes.com hey y', all, it's Joel and.

[A]

Matt from how to Money and Joel. We both love getting outdoors and embarking on next big adventure. Actually, you've been taking it to the next level with your backpacking trips.

[B]

That's true. Yeah. But folks might be surprised to know that our last international trip was actually all about relaxing. Right. Instead of hoofing it, we went to the Dominican Republic. Sometimes doing less is exactly what you need. You need sun, sand, and no spreadsheets.

[A]

It's true. Yeah, it was great. Waking up to the water, unplugging, recharging. The whole vibe was just about slowing down. I think that could be the worst part of setting off on an overly ambitious trip is the fact that the amount of planning and the amount of logistics that goes into it, it can be a lot. That's why slowing down is sometimes exactly what you need. Finding that balance.

[B]

Yeah, that kind of peace is what travelers are looking for in Airbnb. Right. Whether it's a quiet beach spot or a cabin in the woods, hosting can help someone else get that same experience.

[A]

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[B]

All right, Matt, let's keep going with this. Let's talk money and ancient wisdom. And maybe let's start with the Hebrew Bible, in fact, where specifically there's a lot of proverbs that speak to money and that speak to a life well lived. And the thing is, you don't have to be Jewish or be a Christian to gain value from the wisdom, the copious amounts of wisdom that spring from the 66 books in the Bible, the books in the Old Testament, or the Hebrew Bible. Right. And the reality is that our whole society is infused with Judeo Christian ethics. They form the basis of much of our cultural reality. Our country was largely founded on a.

[A]

Lot of those ethical, our legal structures as well, that govern our country today.

[B]

Right. But I think it can be hard for us to see that because it's the water we swim in and we're like, what's water? Well, it is truly kind of all around us. So it can be hard, if you're not looking for it, to see that it's kind of the reality of the world around us in so many ways. And, Matt, much of the wisdom from those traditions kind of feels less accessible to us today. And I think it's because our nation isn't nearly as steeped in the wisdom literature from these two monotheistic religions. Not nearly as much as we used to be, at least. Sure. And that's not to. No judgment here, but we do think that, religious or not, spending more time with these books can help us better understand ourselves, the people around us, and the society that we live in. And we think that spending some time with the Proverbs with some of this wisdom literature can help us understand money better, too.

[A]

You know what's really interesting is I bet there are a lot of folks out there who know way more Bible verses than they realize because they just thought that they were just sayings that their grandma said. You know, they're like, man, grandma was so wise. And it's like, well, I think she was wise, but I think she also just knew the Bible or she knew a lot of verses.

[B]

She was in touch with ancient wisdom more than we are now.

[A]

Exactly, exactly. And so, like, one that kind of falls within that vein is Proverbs, chapter 16, verse 18, which is pride goes before destruction, a haughty spirit before the fall. I think a lot of times, in my mind at least, I always shorten that one to like, pride goes before the fall. But in reality, it's. Yeah, it's not quite that one.

[B]

Let's just abbreviate that. Modern wisdom or the ancient wisdom.

[A]

It's. Yeah, the how to money translation Proverbs is just one of those books, though, that it's considered wisdom literature. And instead of these hard and fast rules of what you can and can't do, they're more like rules of thumb. And this one, it's basically stating that the more prideful we are, the more likely we are to end up in a bad place. We actually had an episode not too long ago where we talked about the characteristics of great investors and humility. That was up there as one of the most important characteristics that we think Folks should embody when it comes to getting far with their money. Because the fact is, if we're too prideful to take important, helpful advice or if we're just even unwilling to admit that we don't know everything, there's a good chance that it's going to wreak havoc within our lives.

[B]

Yeah, I don't know. Maybe. Can we give kind of a modern example of this, Matt? I think maybe that will help connect the dots.

[A]

Well, plenty of examples of pride in our world today.

[B]

There's so many. Yes. I mean, we could spend the whole rest of the episode giving examples, but. Just made me think of everyone's good friend. Kanye west was on CNBC recently talking about his breakup with the Gap, and he has helped the Gap be, I guess, more successful, which is not. That's not saying a whole lot because the Gap has been pretty pathetic for a whole lot of years now. But, yeah, they have now parted ways. And so, yeah, Kanye was on cnbc and he basically told the host that he refuses to take advice from people who have less money than he does. And of course, the interviewer, she was pretty speechless because that's just odd. But that's Kanye for you, right? And I don't know, but his response to me, it was telling because he thinks he's the only guy in the room who knows what he's doing. He thinks he's the most talented. And when you think of yourself in that way, you're bound to make bigger mistakes at some point. And whether that's because there truly is someone who has more knowledge than you do, maybe it's because they're simply able to provide a different perspective. Or maybe it has more to do with the social impacts of someone who's prideful. Right. Either way, like, to say that you can't accept advice from someone who is less financially successful than you are to me reflects a pretty prideful spirit and a lack of realizing that we can learn from all sorts of people around us. Like, you know what? I could learn something from Kanye, even despite his kind of erratic behavior. And the more that we are on the lookout for wisdom from the mouths of others, I think the better off we're going to be.

[A]

That's right, man. Yeah. Let's keep moving then. Let's snag another one from Proverbs. This is from chapter 22, verse 1 reads, A good name is more desirable than great riches. To be esteemed is better than silver or gold. And so basically what this one is saying is that money is not everything. So you kind of gave Kanye as.

[B]

An example, which he always did his Sunday service thing. I feel like we could go there and read some of these passages for.

[A]

He found Jesus according. Maybe he has, maybe he hasn't. I don't know. That's not for me to decide or to judge. But you gave him as an example. My mind kind of drifts off to somebody else who basically completely ruined the reputation, which is Bernie Madoff. Let's imagine that even though he had done all the terrible things he did, let's imagine that he had somehow avoided going to jail. He had managed to hang on to all of his money. Would you rather be the guy or the girl with ludicrous, ridiculous amounts of money where you've got billions in the bank, but everyone hates you? Or would you rather just be a regular person with average assets who has a solid reputation where you're able to live a. Just a fulfilling and happy life? And while there might be some folks out there who might be tempted to, I think truly you would know that that would not lead to you being happy, because I think, you know, a lot of us here are keen to build wealth, right? We're here to develop better money habits, but we obviously don't want to do it at the expense of our integrity. I just saw a recent survey actually showing that folks, they care more about being respected at work than they care actually about making more money. I think there's totally something to that. Even if there are, if there's, like, this underlying truth that folks aren't even aware of, like, I think that those desires are pointing to, like, a higher, a more ultimate truth. We would all be more than happy to get a 20% raise tomorrow. But if that came alongside a boss who doesn't respect us or maybe who puts us down constantly, that fatter paycheck, it is not going to keep us around very long. Ultimately, it's not about the money. It's also about how we're treated as individuals and the other things that matter in life. You're talking. When you were talking about Kanye. It also makes me think about just how somebody who's prideful. There are just social barriers that get, like, these mores and norms and traditions that also just get pushed to the side with somebody who's. Who's prideful. And so feelings get hurt, bridges get burned. And there are individuals who are like, all right, well, even if that guy is like the smartest guy in the room, or even if that guy is the most wealthy person around, I don't like how he treats people. I don't like how he treats me. And it makes you not necessarily want to do business with somebody like that.

[B]

We've all known somebody who was the best at something or just really, really good at something, but because of how prideful they are, because how much of a show off they might be, it's like we just don't want to hang around them and it doesn't matter that they're brilliant, a brilliant designer or something like that. It's like I'd rather work with the second most brilliant designer because the person who is the best at this is just too tough to get along with. With. Okay, so we're going to get past just the Proverbs, Matt, but there just really is. We're talking about old school wisdom literature that has a lot to say to us today about money. Proverbs is really the place to start. We're going to get to some of the Stoics. We're even going to get to some New Testament Christianity. But something else from Proverbs 22 real quick about death.

[A]

Yeah, Proverbs 22 is a good one.

[B]

Yeah, yeah, this is definitely one worth looking at.

[A]

There's a lot there.

[B]

Well, verse seven says, the rich rule over the poor and the borrower is servant to the lender. We've talked about having loads of debt, how it can impact your mental faculties, how debt kind of makes you dumber. The reality is, studies show that if you're walking around up to your eyeballs in debt, you're going to lose something like 10 to 12 points off your IQ. It's going to be more difficult to make smart decisions if you're hanging on to boatloads of debt. But of course, the truth is that when you have loads of debt, each paycheck requires payments to your creditors. So money that's coming in every two weeks, well, a good portion of it is going out in order to pay the piper. We don't want you to be house poor. We don't want you to be a servant to the credit card companies, to Visa or to American Express. That doesn't mean that all debt is dumb either. We talked about that. The strategic use of debt in episode 566. The principle I think we can extract here is that going overboard on debt owing to giving too many folks too much money creates an imbalance in your life that can put you in a precarious position. Matt, as we read that little passage that the borrower is servant to the lender, I think sometimes that's been Abused. And it's basically told people that debt is not okay regardless of circumstances. Ever. Yeah, it's been used as a bludgeon to hit people over the head with. You see how stupid debt is? That's what we were trying to avoid talking about the strategic use of debt when we discussed it. It makes me think of a friend who decided to pay off his student loans even though, based on where he was working, he was going to be eligible to have those loans forgiven. Not only did he use money that he had on hand to pay off that student loan debt early, that would have been forgiven. What he opted to do was to sell some of his assets, to sell some of his investments to pay off those loans early. Now that he stepped back from the movies made years ago, he has a little more wisdom. He wishes he hadn't done it, because the truth is that debt would have been forgiven, and on the flip side, his investments would have seen quite an increase. And so while it is true that the borrower is servant to the lender, there's a lot of truth in that phrase. It's also, like you said, these are rules of thumb coming from the proverbs. It's basically wise counsel pointing us in the right direction, not telling us exactly how to behave in every instance.

[A]

Right? Yeah. But simultaneously, I would say that if there is somebody out there who feels that, based on, like, because of principle, that they want to pay off all debts that they owe, even though that there is a chance of it getting forgiven, I personally would take advantage of any sort of forgiveness program. But that being said, I do think that folks can fall on different sides of that fence. And while he may have changed his mind had he not changed his mind, and in retrospect, if he was just like, nope, I still think that that was a wise decision, I totally would stand by anybody who feels that they are making the right decision for them personally.

[B]

Well, we've talked about that with some of our friends or guests on the show who have paid off a mortgage early. Right. And we said that's not what we're gonna do, but it makes sense to us from a psychological and money perspective.

[A]

Exactly.

[B]

If that debt is frustrating you to the point where you got to get rid of it and you'd rather prioritize that over other things, that's okay. But it's also, I think, yeah, there's. There's wisdom here in not taking this little passage as something that says, like, I must sell all my possessions, get to get rid of my debt before I do anything. Else.

[A]

Exactly. Alright, let's talk about some fancy living. And this is another one from Proverbs. This is from chapter 21 and in verse 17 it says that whoever loves pleasure will become poor. Whoever loves wine and olive oil will never be rich.

[B]

And what about craft beer? Does it say anything about craft beer?

[A]

Matt? I feel there's a, there's a slight sense of judge, not judgment, conviction. That's the. I guess that's maybe what I'm feeling a little bit because obviously back then wine and olive oil, they were delicacies in ancient times. And so. Yeah. Is this proverb saying that you can't like nice things? Well, no, but it is possible to put too much emphasis on them. If we say that we love craft beer and oftentimes I think we, maybe we use the word love too often. But there's a difference between saying that like, oh man, I really love craft beer versus in my heart it being something that completes me and not just fancy food or drink, but anything I think can kind of take that place in your heart. And this one's interesting too because I think it's a warning to those who are successful.

[B]

Right.

[A]

Because if you might be listening and you're thinking, well, all right, that's fine, but I've got zero temptation to do that in my life. I'm living paycheck to paycheck, I'm barely making enough to pay for the essentials. Well, definitely still pay attention. But this is a warning to those who are at the stage in their wealth building game that they have a little bit more disposable income, they have the ability, they've got a little more margin on hand and they're thinking, oh, what am I going to spend my money on now? And you start to spend it on some of these nicer things, which I believe can be a slippery slope. I think if by spending a little bit, if that puts you on this path to losing control of your spending and where it is that your money is going, I think it's better to not have spent that money at all on that thing and to have never experienced this thing that could have brought you some, some joy in your life, if it means that you're gonna see a lot more of your money going to waste and potentially your life even ruined as well.

[B]

Alright. Makes me think of, of Diderot's robe. We've talked about that on the show before. Right. He's the French philosopher. The Diderot effect. Yeah. Who gets a new robe. And for some reason everything else in his life looks dingy, like he was frugal, and he gets this one nice new piece of clothing and then all of a sudden he goes bankrupt, basically trying to update everything else around him. And I think that is. You're right, that's a real problem. We're going to give kind of the counterbalance point to that in a little bit when we go over some stoic advice. Matt. But, but it is true, I think you're right, that it's easy to fall in love with nice things. And once we started incorporating more nice things into our lives, it's hard for us to go back. We as humans, we have a hard time. Once you start getting your house clean twice a month, it's hard to go back to once a month. Right. Stuff like that. So you have to be careful about what you bring in on the front end. Matt, let's do something else from the Bible, from Christian tradition. This is finally not in the proverbs. This is from Luke, chapter 12. This is a parable that, that Jesus tells about storing up possessions for yourself here on earth. And this farmer, he harvests crops and he yields just such a bounty that he decides to not only just build bigger storehouses, but tear down the old ones so that he can build bigger ones in their stead. And that once he has those built and his massive harvest stored, he can just eat, drink and be merry. He doesn't even have to think about the future anymore. He's got himself set for life. And I think there's a sense in which maybe we all think like that, that our pursuit of financial independence is going to allow us to not have to rely on anyone or anything. But while Jesus is speaking, he's basically speaking to where we pin our eternal hope in this passage. But a simple and practical lesson behind this parable too, is that life is fleeting. And this guy, he decides to build these bigger barns so that he can store his stuff and then just. Just chillax, right? Just rest on his laurels, hang out, sip lemonade in his rocking chair. But the reality is that not a single one of us knows if we're going to wake up tomorrow to enjoy the fruits of our labor. Eventually we're all going to die. Which actually probably, Matt, makes it a good time for us to start talking about the Stoics, their wisdom, because they were kind of hyper focused on the ultimate reality.

[A]

Memento mori.

[B]

That's right.

[A]

Keeping that eventuality of death front and center on the tippy tops of their minds.

[B]

That's right. Yeah. So we'll talk about some STO wisdom. We'll even get into a little bit of Buddhism and we'll get to, we'll get to that ancient wisdom and how it intersects with our money right after this break. Looking for a smarter way to teach your child to ride a bike and support American jobs at the same time? Most kids bikes are just cheap imports. They're heavy, clunky, hard for kids to control. Guardian Bikes is changing that. They're assembling bikes right here in the USA with plans for full US Manufacturing in the next few months. It's a commitment to higher quality and American craftsmanship you can trust. Each bike is lightweight, low to the ground, and built to help kids learn to ride faster, many in just one day. No training wheels needed.

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[B]

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[A]

Matt from how to Money and Joel. We both love getting outdoors and embarking on the next. Next big adventure. Actually, you've been taking it to the next level with your backpacking trips.

[B]

That's true. Yeah. But folks might be surprised to know that our last international trip was actually all about relaxing. Right. Instead of hoofing it, we went to the Dominican Republic. Sometimes doing less is exactly what you need. You need sun, sand, and no spreadsheets.

[A]

It's true. Yeah, it was great. Waking up to the water, unplugging, recharging. The whole vibe was just about slowing down. I think that could be the worst part of, of setting off on an overly ambitious trip is the fact that the amount of planning and the amount of logistics that goes into it, it can be a lot. That's why slowing down is sometimes exactly what you need. Finding that balance.

[B]

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[B]

It's a good title.

[A]

The Stoics. All right, so when you think about the fact that these folks lived in Ancient Greece like 2000 years ago, it is impressive to hear some of the wisdom that they possessed. And so the Stoic philosophy, it's all about building resilience and that no matter what circumstances you are born into that you will grow into confidence that you can take on anything. It's no surprise that I feel like stoicism is sort of making a comeback today, whether that's just sort of the current financial crisis or the, you know, where markets are or just the kind of world that we live in today. But there's a lot of great truths that we can take from stoicism and apply Those to not only our lives, but to personal finances as well.

[B]

I think living in a time of abundance like we have now, like, there's even more necessity for self. Restra and the Stoics really talked about that a great deal, right?

[A]

Yeah, yeah. Because at the time, like, Greek civilization was at its pinnacle, like, it was at the peak, and.

[B]

But they also realized that partaking in that, engorging yourself on the abundance was.

[A]

Not bringing about that happiness and ultimate fulfillment. Yeah, totally agree. Yeah, it's really interesting because there's certainly a parallel to that today within our world, where we have the most comfort, the most information at our fingertips as well. It's like we lack the most wealth.

[B]

Even the poorest among us have more wealth than really was imaginable throughout most of history.

[A]

Yeah. And just the Internet, like, literally, we lack very little in our modern age, in particular in this country.

[B]

Yeah, for sure. So Epictetus Matt, he's one of the most fascinating Stoics to me, partly because he was born into slavery and his name literally means the acquired one, and he spent the first 30 years of his life in chains. And he once said that wealth consists not in having great possessions, but in having few wants. That's the quote I remember from him most. And then Seneca, another of the great Stoic philosophers, said that contented poverty is an honorable estate. And I think those two quotes really go together for me, because at the heart of both of them is the ability to be completely satisfied with where you're at in life, even if your lot in life, even if the place where you are isn't where you want to be, even if there's a lot of progress left to be made, but to realize that getting more money, more possessions, a bigger house, a nicer car, that they're not actually going to bring fulfillment, we would say it's wise to desire the upside of wealth without being dependent on it. And I think it's really easy, Matt, for us to think that once we cross a certain threshold, whether it's net worth wise or whether it's success in our career wise, whether it's achieving the position or a certain amount of podcast downloads or something like that, that that's going to make you happy. The truth is. Oh, it will. The truth is, once you get to that point, there's always a next hill to climb. And so it never does really make you happy as a human. And so you have to find your contentedness in other places. And being able to see kind of how the Stoics were able to do it. How they thought about it, I think can be really informative to how we start to think about our own trajectory.

[A]

Yeah, we're constantly moving the goalposts. And so while you're talking about how we often seek after more possessions, here's another banger from Seneca, which is it is the quality rather than the quantity that matters. This is a great one because it feels like our society, it's often focused on just acquiring more stuff, you know, like not just finding fulfillment in those, in those things, but just more and more, you know, is it sort of like the bigger is better kind of mantra? But we feel, for instance, it's way better to focus on quality over quantity. We think it's better to have quality relationships rather than a slew of acquaintances. And spending our money on quality items is something worth prioritizing as well. Like in a world of fast fashion and prepackaged foods, disposable toys, a world of plastic, Basically it's helpful to rethink our spending patterns. And you know, at least for me, that that's meant buying fewer things, but oftentimes more just expensive ones as it pertains to quality because they're going to last for a much longer time.

[B]

It's like those antique pieces versus the IKEA pieces that we talked about at the beginning.

[A]

Exactly. And not to disparage ikea, there's a time and place and depending on where, where you are in life, but simultaneously. Yeah, I think there's a lot that can be learned not only from buying higher quality items that are going to last, but also the different things that we pour our time and energy into as well.

[B]

Yeah, alright. Another good one from Seneca, because he was full of them. He said that until we begin to go without them, we fail to realize how unnecessary many things are. And I mean, that's so ridiculously true. We would suggest that it would be a helpful exercise to walk through your house finding objects that you really wanted at one point. We all have those and, and then things maybe you thought you couldn't live without in order to see whether or not they're making you happy, whether they're paying dividends. Are you still using that? What was a must have item? Are you using it regularly? A good place to start would probably be your closet. Do you still have tags on those new items you purchased months and months ago saying that you. Oh man, I can't wait to wear this. This is going to be the perfect piece for this and this occasion. Well, so. So many of the things we identify as Needs are actually just wants. Right. And we would do well to think about the things we purchased that are actually unnecessary and to keep this lesson front of mind for future purchases. And it might even be helpful to purposefully go without some things and start to clear out some of the items in your house you aren't using as frequently to give away to people who might use those things with more regularity. But the truth is, a lot of us have probably a lot of unnecessary things floating around our house, things that cost us us money to buy and that costs us time to produce the money. And when the reality is that our time is our most important asset, we have often squandered it in the pursuit of things that aren't really moving the needle for us.

[A]

That's right. Well, so actually, as you're talking about being charitable, Marcus Aurelius, he's another one of the most famous stoic philosophers out there. He said that the only wealth which you keep forever is the wealth that you have given away. And I feel that we've lost the understanding of this in our culture that always does want to have more. But it is so true that when you give your time, your money away, that you do become a happier person. Oftentimes the folks who are most generous are the ones who actually have the least amount of possessions. But we think that giving your money away regularly to causes, to folks who you're passionate about, who you want to see advanced in the world, that that is going to allow you to see your money do good around you, also giving you a healthier relationship with money in general.

[B]

Yeah, we've always said that giving your money away gives you a more healthy relationship to your money, lessening your attachment to something that is a tool. Right. And that you can use for good, but that you can use to see good happen in the world around you, specifically through nonprofits or in generosity to individuals who are in need nearby where you live. And Matt, I want to hit one more from Seneca who he said, for the wise man does not consider himself unworthy of any gifts from fortune's hand. He does not love wealth, but he would rather have it. He does not admit it into his heart, but into his home. And what wealth is his he does not reject, but keeps wishing it to supply greater scope for him to practice his virtue. And I really love this one because, yeah, I think, you know, you and I, we really believe that building wealth is a good thing. Obviously, we talk about it a lot on this podcast. But it's important to ask ourselves, is our Pursuit of building wealth helping us become more of who we want to be, or is it detracting from it? And I think at different points in my life, Matt, I've found that my attempts at building wealth, I've been so focused on the money side of my life that I've been missing out on things that are actually more important. And I think what Seneca is speaking to here, he's talking about not letting the wealth we acquired get too close to our hearts, influencing and changing who we are. I think you can do both those things simultaneously. I think you can rather have wealth, like he says, without loving it, while keeping wealth really in a healthy spot in your life where it is something that you are keen to build, keen to preserve, but that gets demoted down the list of biggest priorities in your life.

[A]

Yeah, man, I love the casualness of it. He would rather have it. He does not love money. There's this sort of like not laissez faire approach, but just kind of like a casual, open handed. It's not something that you're clinging to, it's not something that you're striving after.

[B]

It's not ambivalence, but it's somewhere in between there. Right?

[A]

Yeah, yeah, exactly. So we've said a lot, we've quoted a bunch from Seneca. But he also talks about the like, what is the proper amount of wealth for an individual to have? And he says, first of all, it's having enough money that you're able to cover the essential things in life. But then secondly, it's just simply having enough, which I love, because it, man, it's like a double edged sword. Because what that means is that pretty much anybody listening to this can decide right now that they have enough. You just have to decide that. But again, you can flip that on its head though, because there might be somebody who would always say that, like, well, I don't have enough. And it could always be this thing that they're striving after where they are just wanting more and more and more.

[B]

Feeding the beast.

[A]

Exactly.

[B]

It's insatiable.

[A]

Yeah. And so I, I think there's a.

[B]

Lot of power there.

[A]

But basically I think what Seneca is getting at is the ability for us to reign in our behavior and how it is that we view and perceive and pursue money. It comes down to us as individuals. I don't think there's not like necessarily a right or wrong amount of money, but it's all about how it is that we do the dang thing.

[B]

Yeah. That reminds me of another saying. That my mom used to say back there, speaking of ancient wisdom, Matt, she's. She's not that old, but she would. But she would always tell me that how. Like, it's not what you say, it's how you say it.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And there's so much truth to it. Right. That. That it is how. It's not the words that are coming out of your mouth. It's the way in which you were treating someone while you say it. And whether you're saying it with, like, anger or whether you're saying it out of love, it's. People perceive that. And so much of the same is true. I think when it comes to how we handle our money and the way in which we go about it matters. I don't know. There's this concept in Buddhism called the middle way. I think it's worth mentioning here, too. Basically, it's this call to avoid extremes. The reality is we live in a society that is incredibly polarized, which I would say makes it easier said than done. We're kind of fighting uphill to live in a way that's different from our modern culture, from popular culture. Political views are fierce. Money views can be as well. On that front, Matt, it makes me think of the fire movement. It's kind of an extreme way to view your money. That's true. It's not that there aren't great principles there and great people in the movement. But we've also said that, you and I, we've also always really talked about kind of a middle way that would focus not on depriving yourself, but also on not overindulging. And that's just constantly what we're trying to espouse here is balance basically this middle way with your finances, enjoying the here and now while realizing that money is a piece of the puzzle, while saving and investing wisely for your future. And it is not the easiest thing to get right. I think it's a pendulum that is constantly swinging because we as humans, we never really kind of find the sweet spot and stay there. We're always kind of on the march to be in that sweet spot. And so it's okay to see that in yourself, because I think anybody who's trying to. To be decent with their money sees that in their own lives. At times they are too frugal, and at other times, they might prioritize investing for their future more than they should. They should enjoy some of the fruits of their labor in the here and now. You might think after hearing us talk about this, oh, man, I haven't really thought about giving my money away at all. And maybe it's a good time for you to reconsider. Well, maybe you're too attached to your money and it would be a good idea to look for ways to give of what you've been given to care for those around you, people who have more need than you do. But Matt, it's just fun to kind of go over some of these ancient quotes, some of these ancient texts to gain wisdom, because there are a lot of deep and beautiful truths here that I think we can all run through the filter of modern life and kind of start to make different choices with how we think about how we approach our money.

[A]

Totally.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And it's not lost on us too, that we barely just. Just touched on like Buddhism and any tradition that some of the Eastern. Yeah, yeah, like Eastern traditions, as opposed to most of what we talked about today, was kind of more from the Western tradition.

[B]

Well, speaking to things that we're more familiar with at least. But there's a lot more we could dive into.

[A]

There is? Yep.

[B]

For sure.

[A]

I could totally see us doing an entirely new episode where we do dive into some of those Eastern traditions and some of the wisdom that can be garnered there and how it is that we can apply that to our money. So, yeah, maybe look out for that one in the future. But Joel, we're going to go ahead and shift to our beer that you and I enjoyed. This was Apricot Crumble. This is a beer by Vitamin C Brewing. What were your thoughts on this one, dude?

[B]

Yeah, I feel like actually a month or so ago I got a pie from one of our local pie making shops and it tastes a lot like this one. It was so good. And the beer was delicious as well. It's like the apricots came through nicely. I think ours was a peach crumble, but apricots are a little sweeter, have just a little more tartness going on. This one had like some of the fresh crust vibes as well going on with like a dash of cinnamon in there to go along with it. So this definitely tasted like the beer version of a delicious pie. And I gotta say, I like it a lot.

[A]

Yeah, I liked it as well. So it wasn't. So we've had some of the beers by Humble Forager. It also makes me think of Tripping Animals where all of their beers are in the style, but they're often just boozier and they're just, just way thicker, a lot heavier. And this was a similar style, but they didn't get too crazy with it. I felt that they kept the amount of sweetness in check where it felt like it was not quite ripe apricot. Right. Like it was a little bit tart. Like maybe had like a slight amount of crunch as opposed to where you're, you're looking at it. Because the best fruit, like the sweetest fruit, it never looks good. Right? Like you look at it and you think, oh, should I toss that? But then you wash it and eat it and you're like, oh my gosh, this is like the sweetest, most delicious ripe fruit that I've ever had. I feel like this one tasted like an apricot that looked real nice. Which also meant that it was a little bit tart.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

But it totally had some of those crumble crust notes going on. Some of that. I think there's like some of that lactose in it as well. It made it taste nice and creamy. It was really enjoyable and I don't think we've ever actually had a beer by Vitamin C before. But yeah, I'm glad that you were able to pick this one up and we were able to share it during this episode.

[B]

No doubt. Me too. It was a good one. But that's gonna do it for this episode. Don't forget to sign up for the how to Money newsletter on our [e-mail] newsletter. Makes sense, right? It'll show up into your inbox every Tuesday morning, hopefully giving you a nice chuckle along with some good money information. But Matt, that's going to do it for this episode. Until next time, Best friends out.

[A]

Best Friends.

[B]

Foreign.

[A]

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