Jared Walker (2:45)

I feel like you've already done it. You've got a special. You've got a special. I mean, anything that. So, like, I'm hosting a book club in a couple days and we just read a book from a Russian author. So I'm doing the whole thing. Russian food. I'm doing like, the whole, the whole thing. So I feel like you're already there. You already got a special punch bowl. You already got a special thing.

Joel (3:10)

You gotta have a theme, though. It sounds like some sort of theme consistency.

Jared Walker (3:14)

Well, yeah, I mean, again, it could be a theme or even just. I mean, couple nights ago we, we hosted, we had Mexican food and we played banana grams and we just did that for hours. So it doesn't. I mean, as long as you've got. I think that that's one of the things is like, have something to do. A lot of times it's like, oh, you want to come over and like, people come over, they eat and then it's just kind of like you're chilling. I don't know, Create some structure. People like that. So that would be, that would be my tip. I don't know. Okay.

Joel (3:45)

All right. No, I appreciate it. I appreciate it. That's. Especially as my kids are getting a little bit older, it feels like hosting is becoming a little less daunting because I was like, I don't want my friends to come over. Stepping on all the Legos and most have Lego night. Lego night.

Jared Walker (4:00)

There you go. All right, we've done that. Okay.

Joel (4:03)

All right, that sounds good. I like that. You can, yeah, it can be super down to earth. And it also doesn't have to be terribly expensive, but it does take some thought, I think, to make it special and memorable. All right, let's get to what I want to talk about on the show today and what you spend most of your days thinking about and trying to help other people with, which is medical debt. But really this whole thing kicked off with like a personal experience with family medical bills. That's kind of part of your origin story. Can you like, give us some insight? Take us back to. Was it 2012?

Jared Walker (4:34)

Yeah, so it was 2012 when I had the idea of $4. And, um, you know, I grew up in Portland, Oregon, so originally $4 was for Portland. And it was very local, community based, very grassroots. So I watched my own family go through a medical emergency. My wife and I were sitting at home. She got a phone call. Her aunt had passed away from cancer. A couple minutes later, I got a phone call. My cousin had gone into labor, seven weeks premature baby needed a heart surgery to live. And it was like, same day, same hour. Both of our families were hit with these emergencies. And I just remember a big conversation was like, well, how are we going to pay for it? What's it going to cost? And, you know, I'm like, 24 at the time, and just this is like, my first run in with the US Health care system. Frustrated that. That that's the reality. Like, when you have a big or even a small medical emergency, it usually turns out to be a big. A financial emergency for a lot of people. And I wanted to help people in that situation. So I started really just like, crowdfunding. Basic crowdfunding would do these small events. You mentioned, you know, beer. We did tons of events at all the breweries in Portland. You know, breweries, coffee shops, music venues. And we would do these small grassroots fundraising events and pool the money together. And every month we would pay medical bills for someone in our community. So that's how it started. And, you know, the organization has. Has shifted over time, but it had. It really started with that, like. Yeah, that realization that a lot of people, you know, have a pretty big financial emergency anytime they have to go to the hospital for something unexpected.

Joel (6:21)

Yeah. And one of the things you realize, though you said it started as crowdfunding, I found that so interesting. For the first many years of the organization's existence, it was that local grassroots, let's raise money, let's do some crowdfunding. But then you stumbled upon the realization that. Wait a second. Actually, a lot of the bill, the money we're raising to pay off some of these medical bills, we don't even need to do that. There are, like, methods in place where we can get these bills forgiven instead of even raising money from friends in the community.

Jared Walker (6:52)

Yeah, it was, you know, it was a moment, an aha moment, but also like rage, because, you know, I had helped all these families by raising money and then paying the hospitals for bills that should have been waived and. And eligible for these programs. I just had no idea. So, you know, in about 2020, I connected with an attorney, Eli, who's now our, you know, director of policy and general counsel at $4. But he was telling me, you know, hey, have you ever heard of hospital financial assistance, hospital charity care? So there's, you know, there's a federal law that requires Hospitals to have these programs, and if you are within a certain income range, they actually have to reduce or completely eliminate your hospital bills if you meet the criteria and you fill out the application. The problem is that all these hospitals don't tell people about the programs or they make it really, really difficult to apply. And, you know, I wanted to jump in and just see, like, what is this all about? It kind of sounded too good to be true for me. So I started jumping in and reading these policies and filling out applications. And in a few months, I got like a million dollars in medical debt to disappear for people in Portland by just knowing my way around the paperwork. So that was kind of when I was like, okay, we gotta stop doing this crowdfunding stuff. Let me, like, lean into this. And then, you know, kind of blew up from there.

Joel (8:22)

Far more efficient and, you know, far less of an onus on the community which wants to care for its people. But you're like, gosh, if there's these policies in place, instead of raising money, let's. Let's lean into this. Which makes total sense. Can you give me, like, an over? You talk about. I mentioned that headline, $14 billion in medical debt. That really represents millions and millions and millions of Americans who have had run ins with the medical system. Right. They've had their credit dinged, higher levels of stress because of a bill hanging over their head. Can you, like, maybe paint the picture anymore for me, for our listeners of what this insane amount of medical debt that exists in the United States means?

Jared Walker (9:02)

Yeah, we do surveys with patients. We ask questions. What is the elimination of this medical debt? What does that mean for you? So for a lot of people, and we see this a lot of time in our patient stories is, you know, I didn't have to drop out of college. Like, a lot of people stop their education because they got to pay a medical bill. A lot of people don't make their rent on time. A lot of people don't pay their utility bill. A lot of people, you know, we have. It was like 27% of patients said, hey, I was able to buy better quality food because I didn't have to pay this medical bill. So medical debt is kind of the tip of the iceberg. Everything below that is what allows people to kind of thrive in life. And when you have this surprise $10,000 medical bill, a lot of that is stripped away and can be a pretty big hole to dig yourself out of. So just to paint a little bit more of that picture, like, yeah, it might look like a medical bill, but it impacts every aspect of people's lives.

Joel (10:08)

There was a talk for a while about, like, disallowing small medical bills from impacting consumer credit scores, Credit scores, and then staying on the credit report in general. The more I thought, at first I was like, oh, that's great. Like, small medical bills won't hound people. They won't bother people. They won't negatively impact their credit. But then I started thinking about the amount, and I'm like, 500 bucks. Who has a medical bill that's less than 500 bucks? They charge like $300 for one ibuprofen when you go to the hospital these days. So how much of an impact is that really having? Because even though it's not federal law currently, I believe the credit bureaus are still, like, they're not reporting those smaller medical bills. But does that make any difference? Are there any medical bills below 500 bucks these days?

Jared Walker (10:56)

I would say anything helps, like, in that direction. But yeah, you're right. A lot of these, A lot of these medical bills are higher than $500. So I think that the two, the two rules that went in place with that were medical bills under $500 can't impact your credit, and then medical bills that are a year old or less than a year old, and it used to be six months. So I think that that does help a little bit. And then, you know, they tried to do no medical bills will impact your credit. That was overturned with the new administration. And it, you know, I think that, that that's a big one. Like, I think that, you know, I'm. I'm of the mind, like, hey, people don't really choose this debt. You know, with hospital bills, they, they shouldn't impact. You know, you shouldn't not be able to buy a home because you had cancer 10 years ago. Like, that's messed up. So, you know, it's something that we continue to advocate for. And I would say every little bit helps. But yeah, you're right, the $500 price tag is not a lot of medical bills. It's usually higher.

Joel (12:00)

Go back to that date where you kind of realized, wait a second, there's another way. And there are these systems in place, these policies in place that can help people receive forgiveness for medical debt. Does the average patient underestimate the aid they can receive after they get a bill? And you mentioned that hospitals just don't make this information apparent much of the time, too. Do hospitals have any obligation to let their patients know, Wait a second. Actually, you don't Wait, how much money do you make? How big is your family size? You might not actually owe this bill in the first place.

Jared Walker (12:34)

Yeah. So I would say now that there's a little bit better protections, but let me go back to 2020. You know, the law is pretty vague. It's like, you have to have a policy, and the policy has to be widely publicized and widely available. So what does that mean? And a lot of hospitals say, well, we've got a poster in the ER and we've got a website, you know, a webpage somewhere. So it is.

Joel (13:02)

Even if that page is, like, unindexed to the search engines.

Jared Walker (13:05)

Right.

Joel (13:05)

And so, like, you Google that for your local hospital, you can't find it or. Well, it exists on the website. It's just impossible for the average person to find.

Jared Walker (13:12)

Yeah. And. And it's, you know, it's like this by design. I think that, you know, if a hospital can get you to pay some money, they want you to pay some money even if you are eligible for these programs. And the. Yeah. There's not a lot of effort put in to helping patients find these programs. So when I found out about them, I was just shouting from the rooftops. I'm telling everybody. I'm like, hey, did you know this? You know this? You know, and we have.

Joel (13:42)

You're, like, convincing people to get injured so they could go to the hospital, so they could get a bill, so they could get it forgiven.

Jared Walker (13:47)

Right. I'm like, I just want to test this out. Like, yeah. And it really was. I remember, Yeah, I was at a restaurant. I heard the bartender saying, you know, oh, yeah, I had to go to the er. They had, like a brace on their wrist or whatever, had to go to the er. And I was like, I, you know, ran over. I was like, hey, like, let me see if I can take care of this. And I was able to, like, you know, it was something that I was just really excited about of, like, can I. Can I get this to work? And I was trying to get the word out, and it wasn't until the beginning of 2021, I actually posted a TikTok video that told people, hey, this is what charity care is. This is how you can access it. If you need help, shoot me a message. And that video ended up getting, like, 30 million views and just exploding the organization. But again, I always tell people, like, well, why was that video so popular? It's because nobody knew about the program. It was shocking to people, especially if you are a person that has declared bankruptcy in the past or gone on a payment plan for years or dropped out of school and then you realize I shouldn't even have had to pay that. So I think that there was a lot of collective frustration with the system and I can, you know, there kind of always is with, with our healthcare system.

Joel (15:00)

But yeah, yeah, yeah. Some people assume too that a non profit hospital system should approach patients differently than for profit hospital systems. That's not always the case. Right. They're not always even more generous.

Jared Walker (15:15)

Yeah, unfortunately, you know, there's been a couple studies that have shown that some of the for profit systems actually give more charity care than the nonprofit systems. And yeah, I think that, you know, you have a hospital that is tax exempt and they're, you know, religious based or whatever and it's like, oh, they should be doing more in the communities. And you know, there's a, there's an interesting phrase you'll hear with hospitals. They talk about community benefit. They say, oh well, you know, our community benefit numbers are really, really high. Look at our community benefit. But then you kind of look at like, well, what are you counting as community benefit? Because the number one thing should be charity care and a lot of times it's not. So yeah, I think that there is. People view this as like they should kind of be held to a higher standard and there should be a little bit of accountability with it. But there, there really isn't talk about

Joel (16:11)

the financial assistance policies because this again is kind of at the heart of what $4 is all about, is helping people make people aware, helping them fight for what they are owed. Essentially under these policies that exist from different hospital systems, are they similar across different hospitals? What percentage of folks typically qualify for this financial systems assistance? And do more people qualify than assume they would? Someone who's like, you know what, I make a pretty good living. I'm assuming like I just owe this bill because I'm not living on a razor's edge financially. I probably don't qualify. Right? That's probably, that's what a lot of people assume. Would they assume that correctly?

Jared Walker (16:49)

Great questions. It's like, okay, what is this all about? The, I would say hospital financial assistance is similar throughout the country, but every hospital is going to have their own policy, their own application. None of it is like standardized. So what do they care about? They care about your household size and your income. They want to know how much money you make and then they want you to prove it. So on average in America, if you are a family of four and you make under a hundred thousand dollars Gross annual income, you are eligible for some type of discount and sometimes even complete waiver of your medical bills. So I would say a lot of people disqualify themselves. They say, you know, I'm not eligible for Medicaid or I didn't qualify for food stamps, so I'm not going to be eligible for this. These programs are much more generous than those other programs. And I always tell people it takes like two seconds to see if you're eligible.

Joel (17:43)

Just check, essentially check your what? AGI from your previous tax return. And that's what you have to submit to the hospital anyway. Right. In order to, to qualify and have that forgiveness go through.

Jared Walker (17:54)

Yeah. So you would, if you're going directly with the hospital, you would ask for that application, fill out the application, attach your proof of income, which normally they want to see three months of pay stubs, tax return, something like that. And then you would send that in and they would verify it and then they would, yeah, reduce the bill or eliminate it depending on, you know, where you fall. But if you're in the Pacific Northwest, all hospitals in Oregon, Washington will waive 100% of your medical bills if you are at or below 300% of the federal poverty guidelines. So that's at like 100k ish number. But then they have a sliding scale discount all the way up to 400%. So you can be actually making 120k as a family of four and be eligible because the cost of living here is a little bit more. If you go into New York, it's going to be even higher. Or Los Angeles, San Francisco. If you're in rural Kentucky, it's going to be lower. Right. So it just depends. But that's generally how all of these programs work. They're income based. How many people live in the household? And that's kind of, once I started doing this, I realized how hard these applications are and how difficult it is to get the information, which is what $4 does is we have automated that whole process so that you can just go to $4, check your eligibility, apply and we handle the rest. Okay.

Joel (19:22)

What do you typically see a reaction from someone who gets a medical bill in the mail? Like what, what's our typical response? I feel like the, there's like a lump that forms in the throat, there's a pit in the stomach. Right. There's a general air of panic when you receive a medical bill in the mail. What are the worst responses people make in the aftermath of getting a bill from a hospital or medical provider in the Mail.

Jared Walker (19:46)

Oh man. Like the, the one that really, really hurts me is just throwing it on a credit card. So like panicking and just because a lot of times, you know, it's pretty threatening. Sometimes you get, you know, final notice, your, you know, collection notice. Like they try to make it seem like it's a bigger deal than it is.

Joel (20:05)

Big red all caps, letters, exactly like,

Jared Walker (20:08)

you know, something bad is going to happen if you don't pay this. And you have time, like we just discussed, you have a year until it actually negatively impacts you. So you, you have a little bit of time to save. You have a little bit of time to think of, you know, make a game plan. But a lot of times people put it on a credit card and it's like you would much rather have debt at a hospital than debt at a credit card, you know, with, with 30% interest. Right? So that, that's one, you know, I think that just a, I can't handle this and I'm just going to ignore it. Obviously that doesn't work either. And you know, those are the two big ones that I would say. Hey, like, I know that this is stressful. I've gotten some medical bills that had that same feeling. But let's make a game plan. Don't put it on a credit card, don't ignore it. And then we can kind of talk through the steps of what to do.

Joel (21:05)

All right, I've got more questions I want to get to with you, Jared. I want to talk about negotiating down your debt. If you legitimately owe it. What happens to our listeners out there who are making too much? We'll get to questions along those lines with Jared Walker right after this.

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Jared Walker (25:05)

Yeah, so I would say step one, financial assistance. Right. If you're not eligible, ask for an itemized bill. So, you know, I've seen a lot of videos people talk about ask for the itemized bill. Um, it can help. Uh, so couple things. One, they say 80% of medical bills have errors in them, which is insanity. So there you mentioned even earlier on this, the, the a hundred dollar aspirin or the, you know, the $50 band aid that those charges can be lowered or taken off. A lot of times even just asking for the itemized bill can lower your bill because they'll be like, oh crap, we, you know, we overcharged that or we double charged that or whatever. You can also go through that itemized bill once you get it. There's a couple websites, I think Healthcare blue book or fairhealthconsumer.org or something like that. There's a couple, or chatgpt, there's a couple AI things where you can plug in, hey, is this, was I charged correctly or was I overcharged?

Joel (26:06)

That is definitely, it seems like one of the best uses of AI right now. Run your medical bill through there and have ChatGPT or one of the other platforms assess it.

Jared Walker (26:14)

Yeah, because you know, sometimes it's just like, hey, you were, you were charged twice for this thing and they didn't catch it. So ask for an itemized bill. So let's say that you're not eligible for financial assistance. Your bill is perfect. There's no errors. Then I go to negotiate. I negotiate every single medical bill that I get. I don't care if it's a hospital, if it's a lab, if it's, you know, you can negotiate these things. So the, the first thing that I do is I call and I ask, what is the settlement amount? And that just means like, hey, I have cash. What will you take if I close this out? Because they want to close this out just as much as you do. Right. They don't want this to go to bad debt. They want to get payment. A lot of times you can get 20, 30% immediately just by asking that question. The problem is that you have to have the cash, you can't say, hey, I want to negotiate this rate and then go on a payment plan for that. You gotta have the cash upfront. I've got a hospital bill right now. It is $750 from a hospital. I've called them three times and all three times they've said, we don't do that, we don't negotiate. So I say, okay, I will wait until it goes to your collection agency and then I'll negotiate with them, which

Joel (27:31)

is an internal collections agency, not external.

Jared Walker (27:33)

Do you know, it doesn't really matter. Most of them, like this one I think is it's definitely external that they'll send it to a different company and then I'll negotiate with them. So again, you have a year until it's going to negatively impact your credit score. So really nothing can be done other than a bunch of threatening letters. And I just try to, you know, get it to an amount that I feel good about even saving. You know, 20, 30% is great. So you can absolutely do that. You know, I don't do that with like my chiropractor or, you know, like some small family office or whatever. But if it's at a hospital, labs, anything like that, absolutely.

Joel (28:11)

Is that 20 to 30%? Is that something that you should expect? And obviously it sounds like you're being stonewalled right now. What are the. Are there any downsides to having that go to collections? I know that can. It feels like you're dealing with a more adversarial opponent if it's with a collections agency. I don't think a lot for a lot of people, they're like, eh, it scares me too much. I feel like I need to get rid of this, take care of it now.

Jared Walker (28:37)

Yeah. You know, I actually like working with the collection agencies more because like, again, they want to close this out. Like they're trying to get paid onto the next one. And a collection agency, unless it's a year old and it's going to, you know, ding your credit, it doesn't mean anything. It's just you're calling a different number. There's nothing like, yes, they might be more aggressive. They might be. You might get a lot more letters and phone calls and whatnot. But, you know, a hospital is going to send you to a collection agency after, you know, 90 days, 180 days of no payment. You got time like work with, you know, if it's the hospital or the collection agency, whoever's going to take it, do can you expect 20%? I would say, absolutely. I had a lab. A bill from a lab a couple months ago that was $1,300. And I asked what the settlement amount was, and they lowered it to 300 bucks. They're like, we'll take 300 bucks right now. I was like, done. Like, here you go. So sometimes you can get way more than that. And, like, I'm not rude about it. It's just I have called the same collection agency three different times, talked to three different people, and got three different amounts each time when I asked that question. So, like, I don't see any downside to it other than if you wait too long, you don't want it to ding your credit. Like, at some point, you gotta. You gotta make the payment. And then I would say, like, lastly, get on a payment plan that's affordable to you. Yeah.

Joel (30:12)

I was gonna say, sometimes it's all about who you talk to. Right. And is it. Does it ever really asking for the supervisor. Right. Does that make a difference? Like, maybe you're talking to somebody who's a little lower on the totem pole. They don't have the ability to make the decision or offer a higher percentage of forgiveness on the bill. If you're able to pay in full today, sometimes it's just wait until somebody else is in the office the next day. Is it truly just kind of scattershot? You got to keep trying.

Jared Walker (30:40)

Oh, yeah, for sure. And I also, like, give them the story. You know, hey, I used to do this all the time when I was doing crowdfunding, because I, you know, I would throw these events. I'm trying to pay a medical bill for a family in our community. So I'd call and I'd give them the story. Hey, like, I just hosted three events. I raised this much money. The bill is this much. Like, will you take it? Like, I. I have no problem, like, letting people know, hey, this is a hardship for me, or this is a hardship for this family. It would mean a lot. Like, this isn't a huge deal to you, whether you get paid $800 or $1200. But, like, this would be. Change this family's life.

Joel (31:23)

Yeah.

Jared Walker (31:23)

So will you take it? Like, absolutely and absolutely about, you know, who you talk to. Like I said, I've gotten drastically different answers from different people at the same office.

Joel (31:37)

Talk to me about payment plans, because it sounds like at some point, some. Like, even if you. If you're. You can get a percentage of that medical debt forgiven, if you're making more, you don't qualify for Full financial assistance, A payment plan might be a necessity. Is that what should people be aware of with those hospital payment plans and how are they usually structured? And I would assume almost always it's better than putting it on a credit card unless you have the cash to pay off the credit card bill in full as well.

Jared Walker (32:11)

Yeah. So I would say first make sure that this payment plan isn't a credit card. So a lot of times hospitals will. Will sling these care credit. We see those all the time. Like, that is a credit card. That's no good. Don't go. Don't go on that.

Joel (32:27)

What's so nefarious about those?

Jared Walker (32:29)

Oh, they're just high interest. Like, they come off as like, oh, we're, you know, this is. This is better than like, your credit card or whatever. But it's like, no, this is just another credit card. They're just slinging a product.

Joel (32:40)

Yeah.

Jared Walker (32:40)

And.

Joel (32:40)

And that's their attempt to get it off their books and get you out of their face.

Jared Walker (32:44)

Yeah. There's another thing that I see a lot on social media where people say, like, oh, you know, if you call your hospital and you say, I'm gonna go on a $1 payment plan, you just pay it off for the rest of your life. Like, they have to take it. I do not. That is not true. Like, I've tried to. I've tried to do the like, oh, I'll pay five bucks, ten bucks. It's like they have minimums. Maybe there are certain states or counties that have, like, laws like that, but I have not come across that where you can just, you name the price, you can absolutely negotiate what that payment is. But I do believe that there's like, a limit to that. And then, you know, a lot of times when you go on these payment plans, it allows it so that they won't send it to collections as long as you're making that payment or it won't ding your credit. So, you know, I think payment plan to me is just like, almost every hospital, clinic place is going to have an option to go on a payment plan. It's just not the best. If you. Like I said, if you have the cash, you can usually get it lowered. But for some, it's just like, hey, I can't make this payment now. I don't have the cash, and I just have to spread it out over time. Just try to negotiate something that you can afford.

Joel (34:04)

So early on in your story, you're advocating for everybody you come into contact with, even random people riding bars. And obviously, it's because they don't know how to advocate for themselves. They don't even realize this exists. It took you a while to figure all this stuff out. Can patients, can people who are listening to this podcast right now, can they DIY this process themselves or do they need an advocate to help them out with this because it's so full of bear traps that they can step in, or is this something they can, you know, do go it alone?

Jared Walker (34:36)

Oh, man, that's a tough one. So I would say immediately they can absolutely do it themselves. But it does depend on a few things. Right. Like, you know, if you, you've got a bad diagnosis, you're starting chemo next week, maybe don't take this on. Right. Like, you've got, you've got other things to worry about. But I think for a lot of people, this is really just intimidating. It's like, hey, I don't, you know, I haven't negotiated a bill I haven't done. Like, it can be really stressful and intimidating. That being said, we have tons of resources. We have scripts that you can look at on our website and walk you through exactly what to say, how to say it, when to say it. AI is another great tool like, of using, you know, hey, I'm going to call this hospital. I'm going to try to do this. What should I say? And there are people that are really, really uncomfortable doing that. But if you can get over that, I would say, yeah, the everyday person can absolutely find their way through this. Even that original TikTok video I just showed people, hey, if you Google hospital name plus the phrase financial assistance, you know, legacy health financial assistance, you usually will be able to find the policy, find the application and figure it out. But again, $4 is a free resource. So you can also just go there.

Joel (35:58)

Yeah. And tell me about the calculator that's on the site. Right. Because I feel like, doesn't that help people across the country be able to input their basic information and figure out whether or not they're going to be eligible for assistance pretty quickly?

Jared Walker (36:11)

Yeah. So early on, we made a database of every hospital in the country and we read every single financial assistance policy and found every single application and we put it into this database. It allows you to go to DollarFor.org, put in your household size, income, what hospital, and it will tell you if you're eligible at that hospital, any hospital in the country. And then once you find out if you are eligible, we've taken it a step further and we've automated the application process so you can fill it out on your phone, tablet, computer. It will lead you through your hospital's application, have you review it, and it'll ship it off to the hospital, and then we can advocate on your behalf. So that is all in the financial assistance charity care department. If you want to negotiate, ask for an itemized bill. That's stuff that we have, like, articles and webpages for, but we're not doing that as an organization.

Joel (37:05)

Can you maybe share a story from a patient or 2 that $4 has helped? Like, is there somebody that comes to your mind when I ask that question, you're like, oh, my gosh, like, how this changed our life. It was so impactful. And I just got to imagine, like, your job involves a lot of tears. I don't know. I'm pretty emotional guy. I'd be crying all the time. As people have their lives changed by this kind of unknown resource that exists. Right. That you're able to point them towards, to forgive debt that they thought was insurmountable.

Jared Walker (37:35)

Yeah, you know, that it is. It is emotional. There are a lot of really cool patient stories. We have a Slack channel in our staff. So every single time a medical bill gets waived, we all get notified. We have, like, a little celebration channel. So just today, $92,000 medical bill waived at Baylor, Scott and white in Texas. $898 medical bill raised. $6,300. 43, 10,751, 52,000. Like, these are. These are, you know, numbers from today. So it is.

Joel (38:09)

Wow.

Jared Walker (38:10)

All of these represent people that are, you know, going through it, that are stressed about that medical bill that are, you know, got a bad diagnosis, that are struggling through this. So one that sticks out is, you know, young student had an emergency and was just faced with that, like, am I going to drop out of school or am I going to pay this bill? So they ended up sending us a photo of them on their graduation day, saying, hey, I wouldn't. I wouldn't have been able to do this, you know, if $4 hadn't stepped in and helped me with this hospital bill. So that's pretty powerful because it's like, hey, getting a college education and being able to do that can do a lot for you over the years. Right. And then we have lots of stories of the people that are just like, hey, I didn't. I didn't have to move out of my apartment. I didn't get kicked out of my living situation. So, you know, all of these, whether it's $100,000 medical bill or $1,000 if you don't have may as well be 100,000, right? So we celebrate them all and there's a lot of really cool stories, even the Google reviews and stuff. You'll see some of those that are pretty impactful.

Joel (39:17)

All right, I got a few more questions I want to get to with you Jared, including I want to put your future prediction hat on for just a second. So we'll cover that stuff with Jared in.

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Joel (41:22)

one of the most rewarding experiences of my life was traveling all around Australia. I hit up the great city of Melbourne. The coffee scene was incredible. Had my first flat white there and now it's my morning drink of choice. I took a lovely road trip down to the 12 apostles, which is a beautiful collection of limestone rocks jutting out of the ocean, catching some breathtaking views on the Great Ocean Road. And of course I found a great local brewery, the Great Ocean Road Brew House. Snagged a couple of delicious beers and I've still got that T shirt. I even hopped on a plane to visit the delightful island of Tasmania. Hobart is one of my all time favorite towns and visiting the Mona while there was one of my highlights. My trip to Australia was one of the best investments I've ever made. I loved every minute. The wildlife, the culture, the people and those memory dividends of our epic excursion, they keep paying off every time I see a picture of that trip or I reminisce with my travel companions. Australia is a destination that proves joy and financial wisdom can go hand in hand. Explore more destinations in Australia and start planning your memorable vacation@australia.com. all right, we're back. Still talking with Jared Walker. Talking about getting rid of medical debt that you don't know. There are resources and policies out there in place to help ensure that you're not paying debt that you don't know that you don't have to pay. And it's obviously making a big difference in the lives of a bunch of folks just knowing this. I remember the first time I stumbled upon a Jared. This was like probably about the time you were when I had a personal medical bill. And I honestly don't even remember this before AI any of that stuff, how I figured this out. Maybe it was some gentle person at the hospital telling me maybe it was a patient advocate I talked to. I don't remember to look at the financial assistance policy. And I still remember being flabbergasted. And I was like, wait a second. This bill that was going to derail my ability to save for my future and buy a house. Like, well, I don't know it anymore. That's incredible. I made so little money that I was able to qualify and that was just, it was a game changer. So, yeah, the fact that you're pointing people towards this I think is beautiful. I'm curious what your take is. Like, we've seen a pretty big healthcare cost Spike happening in 2026. What do you think the fallout is going to be for rising healthcare costs? Obviously it's just been like the norm. We've gotten used to it over the past couple decades, but even more severe this year. And. And then I want to kind of follow up and ask you about health sharing plans and what your take is on those. But Because I think they're going to see a rise in interest given the uptick in, you know, traditional health care insurance costs.

Jared Walker (44:02)

Yeah. Oh man. Okay. So I think unfortunately it's going to get worse. There will be more medical debt, there will be more people declaring bankruptcy, there will be more people that decide to not pay that insurance premium that's just too expensive. And I think that there's going to be a bigger need for programs like $4. And I think that we're going to start to see a lot of people having to become advocates and it's a lot of work. Sometimes it's like this is a part time job fighting this stuff and I think that that can wear on people. So I think unfortunately with, with Medicaid cuts or, or the insurance premiums going up, I think that you're going to see hospitals that are going to cry poor all the time. Hospitals are crying poor. Hey, we're going to go out of business. We don't, you know, with the Medicaid cuts they're going to see hospitals that will lower their income threshold for charity care. So you know, maybe you were eligible last year but you're not eligible this year. We lowered the amount. So I think that we're going to see a lot of that. And I, you know, dollar for is trying to lean in and provide more educational resources and more patient advocacy and all of that. But we are in a time where healthcare is expensive, more expensive than ever. And I wish I had better, a better prediction. But right now we're kind of bracing for being pretty busy.

Joel (45:28)

What's your take on the health sharing plans? Because it does seem like the only reason they exist is because the insurance space has gotten so ridiculously expensive. That if you are above right, that if you don't work for an employer who offers you health insurance that's substantially discounted. You work for yourself but you make above the amount that qualifies for substantial subsidies. Traditional insurance essentially. If you're in that gap, it's unaffordable and health sharing plans feel like your only option. I think for a segment of the population.

Jared Walker (46:02)

Yeah, this is, this is a sticky situation here because what do I think? So there's this whole like group of people that are in the like hack your healthcare type of spot. Like what can we, you know what, how can we make this work? So direct primary care. I don't know if you've heard of DPCs, all that super, super popular. I think it's great. Like I have. There's one, you know down the road for me, it's like 85 bucks a month and I can go see a doctor and you know, get an X ray or do whatever. Right. But if I have something really bad happen to me, like that doesn't help. Yeah, right. And I think that with these health share ministries, a lot of them, it's, I think that there's, sometimes there's just as much risk because a lot of times people think that this is insurance and this is regulated in some way. And a lot of times they're not. Like, you know, you're paying into a, essentially you're paying into a big cash pool and if something happens to you, they're saying that they'll pay out. I have heard some wild stories about these health shares not paying out.

Joel (47:12)

And is that typically because of stipulations they have about what sort of rules you have to abide by, how you have to live in order to qualify for participation in health sharing?

Jared Walker (47:24)

Sometimes. Other times they just. I'm trying to figure out what I'm allowed to say. I've, I have. There have been some pretty big lawsuits that have happened with groups like this because they basically just went out of business and didn't have the, they didn't have the pool to cover what they needed to. Sure. I actually got reached out to $4, got reached out to. There was a big group and they were like, we only have this much money but we have this amount in claims and we're going out of business. Can you help us try to lower these? So like, and they're just not regulated in the same way that insurance is. And again I'm like, insurance is the worst. I hate it. I hate all of these payers. Like they're, they're terrible. But there are certain rules that they have to have. And like, I think that no matter what, you are giving up a little bit of, you're giving up something when you, when you switch to another thing. Like you mentioned, a lot of these health shares are, they're religious based. So you have a moral contract, you know, hey, I'm not going to smoke,

Joel (48:26)

drink, whatever, all sorts of things. Yeah.

Jared Walker (48:28)

You know, if you, if you have to go to the hospital for an std, like they're not covering that if you have to go to the hospital for whatever. And it's just, I think that for some people it is a fantastic choice and for others it's not. And I think that that's kind of one of the big things with healthcare now is like you have to put in Quite a bit of work and research to figure out what is a good choice for me. My wife and I use this, this website called Sesame Care. It's just a telehealth thing, but if I want a little peace of mind, like a few months ago I had a little lump on my neck and I was like, what is this? Hopped on a, you know, I spent 35 bucks hopped on a 15 minute call with a doctor. And they were like, hey, you can chill out. It's a, you know, a lymph node that is swollen because you're sick.

Joel (49:21)

Yeah.

Jared Walker (49:21)

And I was like, okay, sweet. And I could get, you know, and that cost me 35 bucks. But, you know, a lot of people, I tell people, oh, you know, you can, you can hop on a call with a doctor, you know, within the same hour and get a little peace of mind. A lot of people don't know that's even an option. So, you know, there's that whole, like, there's a whole, the whole cash pay rate. Like, hey, if you don't have insurance, you just pay cash. Can you get a deal? Absolutely. But if something really bad happens, you know, you don't have the cash to cover it. So I'm saying a lot of words without saying anything. It all depends. Health shares are great for some.

Joel (49:55)

When the cash pay is. Yeah, it can be helpful if you know what you're dealing with. You can ask in advance, but if you have some sort of, you know, I got to go to the emergency room right now situation, it's pretty hard when you're bleeding from the side of your head or something to be like, tell me how much this visit is going to cost.

Jared Walker (50:12)

Right.

Joel (50:12)

It's hard to negotiate something like. That's what's so tenuous and difficult about the health care system.

Jared Walker (50:16)

Yeah. I mean, we have people ask all the time because like, you could be in a city and you could have one hospital that has a much higher charity care threshold than another one. But if you're in the ambulance, what are you going to do? Tell the driver like, no, don't take me to the hospital, take me to this one. Because they have a better charity care policy. A lot of times people aren't thinking that way in the moment and, you know, you get a big out of pocket bill. It's like, yeah, if you could go back in time and, you know, research who had the cheaper mri, like, would it have helped? Yeah, would have. But a lot of people aren't working with that time.

Joel (50:49)

Yeah.

Jared Walker (50:50)

You know, when it happens last Question.

Joel (50:52)

I think if ultimately, if you could, my guess is you would want $4 to go out of business because you would want the system to work in such a way that people were not blindsided by medical bills that they couldn't afford. They didn't realize it was forgiveness for. But I also saw on your website you have like some goals that you want to reach by 2028. And I'm curious just to know where you see dollar for future headed.

Jared Walker (51:18)

Yeah, I hope. I hope out of business. I mean, we. We helped get a law passed in Oregon and in California that requires hospitals to screen patients for charity care before they can send a bill. That's great. We have data that that works. So like $4, the idea that we have to exist is embarrassing. These hospitals need to be held accountable for screening patients. They have convinced the public that it is the patient's responsibility to find out about the programs and to jump through the hoops. It is absolutely their responsibility to screen patients for the programs. So we just need to create laws that actually have a little bit of teeth that require them to screen patients. And if you don't, something happens. Right. So the idea would be long term, we would eliminate as much medical debt as we possibly can for individuals like help people right now that are hurting. But long term, create laws that don't require us to be around and that hospitals do this on their own. So that would be the hope. But, you know, healthcare is tough. So we'll see. We'll see how long that takes.

Joel (52:27)

It is, man. I hope that we're not. You're not doing what you're doing 10 years from now. And I hope that I'm not covering it in the same way on the show ten years from now. But our lips to God's ears, I guess. Jared, love what you guys are doing, man. $4. Love the way it started and how you guys are helping so many fol. Where can. How do money listeners find out more about the resources that $4 offers and just kind of dig in and figure out what you guys are all about. Yeah.

Jared Walker (52:54)

$4. Org. All of our programming, all of our services are completely free. We are 100% funded through philanthropy, donations. So you can see if you are eligible. See if you can get help from $4@$4.org you can also give sign up for a donation or whatever at the same website. Dollarfor.org is where you can find it all.

Joel (53:15)

Awesome. Jared, thanks so much.

Jared Walker (53:17)

Thank you. Appreciate it.

Joel (53:19)

All right. What an enlightening conversation with Jared from Doddler4man. An organization that like we said at the end, we wish did not have to exist. But the fact that we kind of live in the current health insurance reality that we live in and like $4 is a necessity.

Jared Walker (53:39)

Right.

Joel (53:40)

And I'm just so glad that their mission to help consumers avoid medical debt that they, many of them would pay, many do pay when they don't have to, when they're not obligated to, when in fact that debt is easily forgiven under financial assistance policies. Please do go check out their website, $4.org and you can see there on the, literally right there on the homepage, see if you qualify, right? You pick the state, you're in, the bill, how much you owe, your income, size of household, and you can figure out really quickly whether or not you qualify. If you have a friend who has been talking to you about this medical bill that's plaguing them, send them over there, right? And see maybe you can kind of like Jared did with the bartender, help someone else find out about forgiveness of a medical bill that they don't actually owe, even though they think they do. What a bright spot. What a way to help other people. That really doesn't take much effort on your part. And I guess my big takeaway from this conversation was I think it was really important to mention that you have time. I think so often Jared's spot on, right? You get that letter in the mail, you're freaking out and you're like, I have to do something now. And it's that pressure of feeling like you have to do something asap or somebody's calling you and they're hounding you about paying your debt or you've gotten a past due notice and you feel like, I guess I just have to take the plunge. I have to start making payments, I have to get on a payment plan. I have to take out the credit card that the hospital is offering me. No, no you don't. And the fact that you have time on your side means you can find for, look for ways to get help. You're not alone and you don't have to make a decision ASAP. You have a year, 12 months, right before that's going to go on your credit report and start making, impacting your score so you have time. Know that, man, I thought it was also just so interesting. One of the things he highlighted was how medical bills, they stall individual lies, but they also stall economic progress. Think about somebody not going to college because they have a medical debt they need to pay and how not only is that bad for that individual but it's bad for the economy. It's preventing people from their highest and best use in society from getting the degree that's going to help accelerate not only their career but the US Economy as a whole.

Jared Walker (56:17)

So

Joel (56:19)

it's really hard to point to bright spots in the area of health insurance in the United States and 2026 in particular feels like a year where things are coming to a head where expenses are increasing and where there is just there people are choosing between a rock and a hard place on the health insurance front. And so at least it's good to know that there are some people trying to help the average individual who isn't quite sure where to turn. So that's going to do it. For this episode we'll put links to $4's site some of the resources that we mentioned up in the show notes on the website@howtomoney.com until next time Best friend out.

Jared Walker (57:18)

This is an iHeart podcast.

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