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- [00:00]
Capital One Ad
This podcast is sponsored by Capital One. In households. We subscribe to everything, music, tv, even dog food. And it rocks until you have to manage it all. Which is where Capital One comes in. Capital One credit card holders can easily track, block or cancel recurring charges right from the Capital One mobile app at no additional cost. With one sign in, you can manage all your subscriptions all in one place. Learn more@Capital1.com Subscriptions terms and conditions apply.
- [00:32]
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- [01:17]
Joel
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- [01:32]
Matt
Is Joel and Matt from the how to Money podcast.
- [01:35]
Joel
My kids, Matt. They've got a few long weekends coming up, so I'm looking forward to taking a few trips with my family during those breaks.
- [01:41]
Matt
Nice. Yeah. And while you're away, you can host your house on Airbnb. Thanks to the Airbnb Co host feature, hosting is now easier than ever. You can access a network of high quality local co hosts who can help you get your home ready for guests. Find a co host@airbnb.com welcome to how to Money.
- [02:00]
Joel
I'm Joel.
- [02:00]
Matt
I'm Matt.
- [02:01]
Joel
And today we're talking about navigating the insane insurance system with Consumer Reports Lisa Gill.
- [02:26]
Matt
Yeah, so our conversation today is going to all about reducing some major expenses in our lives insurance. The premiums that we pay, they've skyrocketed over the past several years for many reasons that we'll actually get into today. And it's a huge bummer if you haven't noticed your premiums rising. That's a problem too. I think one of the issues with insurance is that we're often insulated from these higher costs because, let's say homeowners insurance, well, that's covered by our escrow. We don't necessarily see that day in and day out or health insurance premiums. Maybe that's gone up a little bit. But hey, my employer, they, they take care of that for me. But eventually that's going to have an impact on you on an individual level. And here to tackle this problem is Lisa Gill from Consumer Reports, the nonprofit consumer advocacy organization that we love, we talk about all the time, and Lisa is an investigative journalist. We're going to discuss everything today from wildfires to prescription drugs. So, Lisa, thank you for taking the time to speak with us today.
- [03:24]
Lisa Gill
It's a pleasure to be here. Thanks so much for talking to me. It's such an important topic, and we're going to try to make it as fun and easy to understand as possible.
- [03:31]
Joel
Yes, let's make insurance fun, Lisa. I like that it's a tall task, but we can do it. We can do it.
- [03:37]
Lisa Gill
We can do it.
- [03:38]
Joel
Well, you can do it.
- [03:39]
Matt
At least.
- [03:39]
Joel
We'll. We'll ask you questions to point you in that direction. The first question, though, that we ask everyone who comes on the show is what do you like to splurge on? Because Matt and I splurge on fancy beers from time to time. But we're still being smart with our money, investing savings, thinking about the future. What's that for you?
- [03:54]
Lisa Gill
Okay. I live in a tiny house, and this tiny house is located in a little, like, magical pine forest. And I swear, it looks like the. It looks like a movie set. And in this pine forest are lots of pine needles. But under that is sand. And because of that, I have become ever vigilant with putting down pea gravel so that my tiny home does not wash away in a rainstorm. So this is a necessity. But at the same time, I accomplished that. But I am addicted to loads and loads of pea gravel that you can get at Home Depot or you can get people to drop it off. I splurged on a wheelbarrow that is, like, out of this world to, like, load up this pea gravel and spread it all around the tiny home and all leading up to the tiny home. And I have got probably 6, 7 tons of pea gravel, and I literally can't stop getting it.
- [04:52]
Matt
So basically, every time you are out running an errand, you'll swing by Home Depot and throw one of those bags over your shoulder.
- [04:58]
Lisa Gill
Oh, my God. Yes.
- [04:59]
Matt
You're Walking out of Home Depot. Like, Joel's walking out of Costco with his Traeger pellets to smoke his meats.
- [05:05]
Lisa Gill
I cannot. I literally can't stop. The other day, somebody asked me, what would you do if you had a whole day off that you didn't expect? You know, how would you spend it? And I was like, oh, yeah, I'd go get, like, 50 bags of pea grapple and spread it all out. And you know what? It just looks so good. And, you know, you spread it out, and then, like, six months, eight months later, you're like, oh, I need a freshie. I gotta get another fresh loaf.
- [05:26]
Matt
This has got. Get her.
- [05:27]
Joel
Hit the pe.
- [05:29]
Lisa Gill
Yeah. This is so weird and niche, but you know what? Pea gravel is where it's at.
- [05:33]
Joel
All right. Speaking of your tiny home, I want to know more. Is. Is diy, I think I read. Did you.
- [05:38]
Lisa Gill
Yeah.
- [05:39]
Joel
Did you build this yourself?
- [05:40]
Lisa Gill
Yeah. So I found. I found a builder and his wife. They designed it, and they, like the. The. They actually built it by hand, but it is, like, fully 100% built by hand from top to bottom. And it's customized for, like, my height and my. Everything that you touch in there. I considered, like, everything from, like, the poured concrete countertops to the tile to the wood floor. I mean, it's. It's my dream home.
- [06:05]
Matt
That's. I gotta say, that's super cool. Okay, so what's the square footage? I don't. I don't know. What, do you have to be under a certain square footage to be considered a tiny home?
- [06:12]
Lisa Gill
Yeah. So this is, like. So I'll tell you. Before I tell you the square footage, I'll tell you. It's 8ft wide by about 30ft, 2ft long, and it's on wheels. It's on, like, a proper trailer, and it's, like, 14 and a half feet tall. So it's got two lofts, and the total actual square footage is, like, about 280.
- [06:32]
Matt
Wow.
- [06:32]
Lisa Gill
I think. 280.
- [06:33]
Joel
What do house parties look like at the tiny home?
- [06:36]
Matt
I think she's hanging out in the gravel as opposed to they're outside parties.
- [06:41]
Joel
Yeah.
- [06:41]
Matt
There's nothing wrong with that. I mean, right. Based on how you're describing it, it sounds amazing.
- [06:44]
Lisa Gill
I mean, here's the dirty secret. Nobody tells you about tiny homes. You. Yeah, it's a simpler life, okay? I only have, like, a couple of pairs of socks and a couple of T shirts, like, whatever. But I've got two enormous storage units, and I just swap stuff.
- [06:58]
Matt
Okay.
- [06:59]
Lisa Gill
So be prepared to pay for storage units.
- [07:01]
Matt
On a somewhat related note, do you have to pay homeowners insurance on your tiny home?
- [07:06]
Lisa Gill
Like yes.
- [07:07]
Matt
Yeah, let's segue.
- [07:08]
Lisa Gill
Yeah. So mine is being a di. So a lot of tiny homes, I should say this, A lot of tiny homes are actually RV certified, which means you qualify for rv like, you know, recreational vehicle insurance. You can get through geico and that is a great way to go. Even though most tiny homes are really not very road worthy. Like you don't want to pull them down the highway. You don't want to, you know, it's not a camper. And so if that, if you can get your rv, if you can get your tiny home certified rv, it's a way cheaper option. I did not know that at the time. Mine is just a. Turns out to be a DIY project, not RV certified, which put me. I can't get homeowners insurance because it's on a trailer, you know, basically a trailer bed with wheels. But I can get something called excess and supply line insurance through Lloyd's of London. And that is actually one of wounds up just winds up being one of our tips like after we walk through all the different tips of what to do. That's like your, it's your, it's your last resort insurance.
- [08:11]
Joel
That's good to know. All right, let's. I want to talk to about. Fortunately, we're a little ways removed from the worst parts of the California wildfires, but man, significant damage and a lot of people left without a home and with steep insurance claims. And there are some, I think California specific insurance realities going on right now. But those are also, they seem to be kind of bleeding out to the rest of the country. Can you maybe speak to what's happening in California and how that is kind of, I don't know, just starting to impact the insurance market as a whole.
- [08:43]
Lisa Gill
Well, actually I'd take that question, twist it a little and say, you know, we already saw in the United States most homeowners feeling the impact of other natural disasters all throughout the country, whether they be hurricanes, wildfires, earthquakes, hail storms. And we saw, we put a call out to consumers asking for people to tell us their stories of losing their homeowners insurance or, or catalytic like just astronomical increase in prices. And we're just inundated within hours and just received hundreds upon hundreds of detailed stories all over the place. And so we traced back like okay, where is this all coming from? So we could see in California it was already, you know, the insurance crisis was well underway along with other states as well. But you know, really thinking about California and, and California has a very specific problem. You know, you can see in the headlines leading up to this that there were a couple of major insurance companies that just threw up their hands and they were like, oh, we're not going to write any more policies in this state. It was like all state, state farm and farmers just like walked away. And they can legally do that. Nobody says like hey, you have to do business in a certain state. And that became kind of the norm in a lot of other states, Florida and Colorado, Texas. To some degree people companies started pulling out.
- [10:07]
Joel
Well, that was often after asking the insurance commissioners for the ability to increase premiums. And the insurance commissioner was like no, sorry. And they were like well okay, we.
- [10:15]
Lisa Gill
Gotta go or no, not that much. And they would try to negotiate and they'd just be like we're not going to do it. Here's the fascinating one underlying thing to think about for California when we think about have this discussion and it's something called Prop 103 and I'm not sure you've probably come across it in your research. It forms my thinking about it and it's worth talking about here. So insurance companies, it's like insurance companies raise their rates in the same way that you get a raise at work. It's retroactive, it's based on what happened in the previous year. And then they have to apply for the rate increase. That can take months and months before it's actually granted, if it is granted and then it goes out into the wider public. So you're looking at sometimes 18, sometimes even 24 month lag time. So the insurance industry will tell you oh, we're always trying to catch up. So prop. In California, Prop 103 was something that, that actually regulated this. And then it said, it said to the insurance companies, hey, you can only ever look back. You cannot look at future projections. And so many argue that in California in particular, the insurance people were actually paying a lower insurance rate that was not reflective of the true growing risk in their state of natural disasters.
- [11:32]
Joel
Well, people in California were paying what, like a third of the price of Florida homeowners for homeowners.
- [11:36]
Lisa Gill
Right? Exactly, exactly. So this is issue just switched. I read somewhere that it switched just a few weeks before the Palisade fires. I can't confirm that, so don't quote me on that. But it's a, it's a very recent development that Prop 103 is like a no go and, and that now insurance companies are allowed to use and I'm guessing, you know, AI and other sophisticated tools to do future projections to build their rate increases on those. And so what's going to happen is what, what was already at work before the Palisades fire was a major, you know, so called correction in the market. And it sucks if you're a homeowner there or anywhere where this has happened. But this correction is what is just hit people with, I would say, without warning. If you're not, you know, who, who pays attention to the like home insurance market. You know, you only, you only really notice it when the letter comes to you and it's like, we're not renewing you for next year.
- [12:32]
Matt
Sure. Which feels a bit more extreme. And I mean it's worth highlighting the fact that we're talking about California, not just because we have a lot of listeners out in California, but the fact that this trickles out to these insurers what they're charging other their bottom line all across the country. So this impacts us like the fires out there, they impact us directly. Do you have an idea of how much of an impact just general inflation has impacted increasing premiums as opposed to kind of some of these just a rise in natural disasters as well?
- [13:01]
Lisa Gill
You know, the industry points to a lot of reasons as to why homeowners might have seen, oh, a small increase, a 20% increase or losing your insurance altogether. One of them, it has to do with the replacement cost, the replacement value of your home. And so unlike car insurance, home insurance is typically based on how much would it cost to replace your home today if, if natural, you know, if a disaster occurred. Whereas like with your car, when you insure your car, it is the, it is what's called the actual replacement cost. And that is like, that's why you get, you know, when they total it out, they give you like a couple thousand dollars and they're like, here you go. You know, this is all you could really get on the market because it depreciates. Whereas like homes are different. But one of the reasons that they've cited is that labor costs and material costs due to inflation like went up in the last couple of years basically since the pandemic, at least 40% if not higher. And so the industry points to that and says, well look, replacement costs for us have increased and so we're going to pass that cost onto you in the form of a higher premium or reduced benefits.
- [14:12]
Matt
So it's a little bit of both. And I guess like we've obviously got higher prices, but then I Mean, it certainly seems like that there's been an uptick in claims that have been filed due to natural disasters.
- [14:23]
Lisa Gill
Yes, there's two hidden factors. One of them we talk about, and that's the reinsurance market, and the other we don't talk about because it's not very well understood. So let's start with the reinsurance market. So insurance companies get their own insurance against losses. And it's called reinsurance, which is a silly name, but in essence they buy insurance on the international market. And that international market is not regulated whatsoever. And that, that market really shores up like State Farm or Allstate or, you know, geico or whomever you're getting your insurance from in the case that they need, like they're, they're in a position where they need a lot of cash quickly to pay out claims. So that reinsurance market, from the best government data that we can find out, the amount of money that insurance companies, our insurance companies have to pay to get that insurance has like doubled in the last just like two years. It's costing State Farm more money to insure you. So that's one, that's one thing. The second bucket is the bond and stock market. And so insurance companies basically securitize risk and they resell it in the form of catastrophic bonds. That's like the primary way that they also invest in the market. And those catastrophic bonds are not very, they're not very attractive to investors these days. And it's, you know, with good reason because more natural disasters are probably on the horizon. And so investors have moved away from these bonds. But these bonds are important. They help these companies. Basically, it's like a third layer of protection for them and making it more difficult. All of this basically trickles down to your premium price going up, going up, and then really going up or losing your insurance altogether.
- [16:11]
Matt
It's basically just harder for these insurers to do business on all fronts.
- [16:15]
Joel
So it feels like we, as consumers, we've reached kind of a tipping point where we're like, okay, I assumed that my mortgage was kind of sort of knowable, moving into the future, but with incredible, you know, property tax hikes alongside insurance costs going up at a ridiculous clip. Wow, man. My mortgage payment went up by more than I assumed. Do you have any tips for people out there shopping around for coverage when it comes to trying to save money on your homeowners insurance policy? Maybe like the do's and the don'ts? Because there are definitely some ways that you can harm yourself shopping around for coverage, but Then there are other ways that you really can legitimately save. Right. In an environment of rising costs.
- [16:58]
Lisa Gill
This is the most boring tip, but it is the best one. And it is also the one that's least understood. But it's to get your credit score as high as you can. That credit score will be used, you know, as part of a secret algorithm that companies use to assess your ability to pay and just assess you as a customer. And to get you the lowest. It helps with getting the lowest possible premium price. Insurance brokers don't talk about it. They might casually mention it if they happen to see that your credit score is like below 700. But I would say that the brokers I've interviewed don't. Their articulation of this problem is. Or that that's. As a solution is actually pretty, pretty thin. This gets us into a credit score discussion, but really quickly, it's really good to know that you can download all three of your credit reports@annualcreditreport.com and that's all three bureaus feed into that Equifax, TransUnion and Experian. And by law you're allowed to get that basically free every week. And to check for like, mistakes and duplications and, you know, identity theft, you can check on there and then appeal and that, that all of that, like, can help increase that score by a ton. And it's always good to just kind of keep your, you know, keep your eye on what that score is. But actually that can also help with car insurance as well. Yeah.
- [18:22]
Joel
It seems too you would think, Lisa, that like the advent of the Internet would make it easier to shop around for insurance rates. But no. Yeah, it doesn't seem like it has. Right. Really weird. But you would think, oh man, this, like, there are some things it's been become more transparent to shop for, like tennis shoes, but. But not insurance. Do you like literally have to pick up the phone, call a bunch of different companies? Like, how do you suggest people do it?
- [18:46]
Lisa Gill
No. So check it out. The Internet is like a fine place to start if you just want to get a grip on what's out there. But honestly, the best way, and actually the safest way is to find a local broker, like a real human being who works. And you know, the key here is an independent. So a local independent broker who can get quotes from any company that your state will allow you to work with. And even then some like, even outside of the state. And that's what I did for the tiny house. And they can scan. They can scan you know, really like your big companies. Any state sponsored plans that fall into the fair category. This is a type of state sponsored insurance that people sometimes have to get if they can't get typical homeowners insurance, which is what's going to happen in California and, and definitely other states that are hit by natural disasters. We, we often think about like, oh, we need to save money. But honestly, what you're really looking for is the best value for the money that you're paying. So you, you want to make sure that you have all the correct and proper amount of coverage and amount and the amount of coverage that your bank requires. Because most people have a mortgage. And that's why, you know, if you have a mortgage, you almost certainly have to have homeowners insurance. So that broker can help you sort through the coverage and help you actually make true comparisons. If you're left with like trying to decipher that on the Internet by yourself, you can wind up with a policy where you're like, oh, look, I'm saving so much money, but, and then not understanding that on the back end that the coverage is so poor or it's not, it's just not robust enough in the event you actually need to use that insurance. So. So find somebody local.
- [20:24]
Joel
You're making me think too about the fact that Consumer Reports has a list they update every year of the best and worst insurance companies.
- [20:31]
Lisa Gill
Oh yeah, we're doing that again.
- [20:33]
Joel
Okay, great. Yeah. And I'm curious, you talk about finding the best value. Well, let's say the top two that are typically what Amica and USAA are top two in the rankings, essentially perennially. What if I contact those companies and the annual homeowners insurance premium is $5,000 and I find I go down to some of the ones that are kind of mid ranked and it's more like $3,000 a year, but it's similar coverage. How do you help people think through that trade off of value in homeowners insurance and whether or not maybe it's worth it to pay more for a company that's ranked more highly?
- [21:07]
Lisa Gill
Well, I would be asking, I mean, that kind of difference that you just pointed out, I would be very suspect. And I would be like, ooh, there's got to be some detail in here that is that I'm not understanding where it might look like the same coverage, but it actually might not be. Or it might be predicated on moving all your autos to that same policy as well. You may not realize that. And that's why I love, I Just I love telling people to find a broker just to help you work through that so that you're not sitting there on, you know, on a screen saying, oh, that looks so much cheaper. Why is that? Why is that? Just you should be asking why? And then, and then conversely, why is that one? You know, if there's an outlier here that's super expensive, what is that coverage all about? Why is that so much more? And, you know, and I hate to say it, but it's like it requires a lot of, you know, you need to be willing to educate yourself on and use the vernacular of the insurance industry to help and the help of your broker. And it's a, it's an unfortunate reality. And, you know, it used to be the case that you could just renew the policy every year and not think about it like it was just on, you're on autopilot. And the way that insurance has changed in the last couple of years, that is just unfortunately not the case.
- [22:14]
Matt
What about high deductibles? Because that's, I mean, when it comes to, especially with like auto insurance. But that's something that we advocate for sometimes, if you are willing to accept a little more risk yourself and have those cash reserves on hand, that can significantly reduce your premiums as well. Are you, are you a fan of that?
- [22:31]
Lisa Gill
Yeah, I am. To the point that it makes sense for you. And realize this, you can ask for something called a split deductible and you could say, okay, for all the regular stuff like, oh, a pipe burst inside my house or a tree falls on the house, you know, sort of like your run of the mill, you know, it's not a disaster, but it's like a run of the mill problem where you're going to have a normal claim. That's one thing. But for fire, you know, flood policies are separate policies. But for other types of, maybe it's wildfire coverage or hail coverage, you can ask for a different. See if that insurance company offers a different and maybe even higher deductible for that, and that also will help bring that premium down. But, but just, you know, be realistic about it. I mean, if I had a, like, it would be ridiculous. If I had a $20,000 deductible, I can't, like, I don't have 20 grand just sitting around and I'm never going to have that. But, you know, something more like five, that seems okay. Ten seems all right. But, you know, it's going to be, it's going to be your comfort level and, and then be sure. That, like, you actually know where you're going to get that 10 grand from or 20,000 from.
- [23:31]
Matt
You got to be prepared.
- [23:32]
Lisa Gill
And then. Yeah. And, you know, and this is one other thing, too, something that a lot of people have missed in these discussions, and that is if you have really expensive items, specific items, get separate lines of policy for those, like, let's say, musical equipment or precious art, jewelry, guns. I mean, whatever. You know, whatever. The. The thing is that record collection, I've got, like, an enormous record collection that is insured separately and then in the storage.
- [24:01]
Matt
Okay, okay.
- [24:03]
Lisa Gill
Which have a separate policy. Take those items that are, like, extremely valuable, the antiques or whatever, and get written separate policies on those, either through the insurance company or through even a secondary. Like, I'm just thinking about musical equipment. Musicians Friend is a great place that many musicians will, you know, if you've got, I don't know, a studio's worth of equipment or precious musical instruments, it's worth getting separate policies. And then you can reduce that personal coverage amounts, which can also help lower that deductible.
- [24:34]
Joel
All right, Lisa, this is great advice. So far, we got a lot more we want to get to about homeowners insurance, but then also health insurance and medical bills, too. You write a lot about that. So we'll get to some of our questions about those tough topics right after this.
- [24:51]
Capital One Ad
This podcast is sponsored by Capital One. In households. We subscribe to everything. Music, tv, even dog food. And it rocks until you have to manage it all, which is where Capital One comes in. Capital One credit card holders can easily track, block, or cancel recurring charges right from the Capital One mobile app at no additional cost. With one sign in, you can manage all your subscriptions all in one place. Learn more@Capital1.com subscriptions terms and conditions apply.
- [25:23]
Joel
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- [25:34]
Matt
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- [25:57]
Joel
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- [26:36]
Matt
Hi, this is Joel and Matt from the how to Money podcast.
- [26:39]
Joel
Yeah, Matt, this month, my kids, they've got a longer break from school coming up and I want to take them on a trip somewhere while they've got the time off. Do you have any recommendations?
- [26:48]
Matt
Ooh. Well, I love checking out national parks personally. And Joel, I know that you and the family love hiking together, spending some quality time outdoors as well. You could always check out Yosemite. That's like one of my absolute favorite places on earth. Starting down there in Curry Village, hiking up out of the valley, can't beat it.
- [27:05]
Joel
Sounds pretty lovely. That's a good idea. And I'm going to suggest this to my family. I'll let you know what they say.
- [27:09]
Matt
All right.
- [27:10]
Joel
We may not know where we're going yet, but I do know one thing. We'll definitely be checking out the local Airbnbs wherever we end up. It gives us flexibility and incredible options for a place to stay while we're away from home.
- [27:22]
Matt
Plus, while you're away, you can host guests in your home on Airbnb. It's easy and a great way to earn additional income.
- [27:29]
Joel
And now hosting is easier than ever with Airbnb's co host feature. Airbnb gives you access to a network of high quality local co hosts who can help take care of your home and your guests when you're not there. Find a co host@airbnb.com host.
- [27:45]
Lisa Gill
All right.
- [27:46]
Matt
We are back from the break, talking with Lisa Gill from Consumer Reports. And Lisa, let's take like, let's zoom out a little bit. As we're talking about homeowners insurance, let's talk about taking risk when it comes to where it is that folks are building homes. Right. The Journal. There is an article actually that discussed how people want to build and live in risky places, places that, you know, there's maybe a higher chance of having your house burned down or getting hit by a storm, but they don't want to bear the brunt of market rate insurance costs in order to have the luxury or the nicety of living in an area like that. It seems like something's got to give. How do you think about this sort of, I don't know, you're kind of stuck between a rock and a hard place if you are in a more disaster prone area.
- [28:28]
Lisa Gill
So I'm thinking about like the people that live like right on a coastline. That is a tip, you know, that is a, that is a type of home that is not going to be like a typical middle class home. Those are going to be probably more expensive homes. And I'm thinking it's also people that are not using traditional mortgages to pay for their homes, which can actually be very good thing because it allows you to use different kinds of insurance products. That is not maybe not a typical like state farm plan or all state plan. Something does have to give and what might in, you know, in thinking about that, those other. So I'm referring to basically what's called excess and supply line insurance. And this is what covers like DIY structures. Like if you live in a high intent or in a tiny home or something that you've built that just falls outside the typical insurance plan or a multi, multi, multi million dollar home that's just not going to be covered by a typical homeowner's plan. It launches you into this, this excess and supply line space which is not typically regulated or really at all by your state or even our federal government. It's just like it's on the private market and it often means that you're going to, it's almost like commercial insurance. You're not going to have the same level of coverage. You're going to have really large deductibles and maybe more, more limited. It may not be the actual replacement costs. So I know that. I think your question is getting at like oh, we shouldn't build on the coast anymore. And you know, it's all moved away, you know.
- [29:57]
Matt
Yeah, I guess what you're highlighting here is the fact that those individuals are like wouldn't you like insurance pools, risk? And I guess there's a, there's an aspect of folks seeing houses burned down or homes being built, you know, in Florida, right on the coast and it's just like man, like that's causing everybody's rates to go up. But what you're highlighting here is that because of these excess and supply lines a lot of these individuals are, they're not getting the typical run of the mill state Farm Amica USA kind of policy. They're getting these Lloyds of London's policies that they're having to go out individually and secure. Is that right?
- [30:28]
Lisa Gill
Yeah. Or they're going without a policy. I mean, people that have a very high means means may not have that, you know, they may not want to deal with insurance companies because they could afford to basically rebuild on their own.
- [30:40]
Joel
But some of those people can't. Right. And that's true.
- [30:43]
Lisa Gill
That's right.
- [30:43]
Joel
I think when you look at the statistics, and this was something that shocked me, 40% of homeowners in the United States don't have a mortgage. Like they have a paid off home, which boggles the mind. Like when you, to anybody who owns a home and they're like, how did you pay your mortgage off?
- [30:59]
Matt
They just kept living there.
- [31:00]
Joel
A lot of the times must be okay. Boomer kind of thing. Right. But what would you say to those people who maybe do have a paid off home and they're thinking, all right, I'm going to go it alone, I'm going to risk it and I'm going to drop the insurance because it's getting too darn expensive. That's, that's pretty risky too.
- [31:13]
Lisa Gill
Yeah, you definitely don't want to do that. I mean, if you, if you are somebody, like you're not a celebrity or a retired like professional athlete, I mean, having coverage is essential and it's because you don't know when disaster is going to strike. And you especially, you know, and I would say especially if your home is your primary asset, you want it covered and you could, I mean, even baseline coverage, just something, even catastrophic coverage to make sure that you're just like not high and dry in case like the worst of all scenarios happens. And there are, you know, and you can get catastrophic coverage, I mean, through your typical insurance companies and you can get it through a Lloyd of London, Lloyd's of London, you can get it through aig. They're different. There are different types of policies. I think maybe also inherent in your question is not just multimillion dollars on the coastlines, but you know, people building in the interior, like maybe in Colorado or Montana or you know, places that, that have a higher wildfire risks that maybe people didn't understand when they were first building. I mean, that's true. That's, that's another possibility too. And I would say you're in for a surprise, you know, when you try to go insure it and the advocacy policy is trying to get homeowners to build in places that are less risky. And I mean, you said it. It's all about managing risk. And it's like, what's your risk tolerance? And I think you have to be, I will say this. I think you have to be realistic about what your risk tolerance is and what you actually can afford. I think that most Americans have a very inflated view about what they can afford, and that's what leads us to, like, crazy credit card debt.
- [32:48]
Matt
Oh, absolutely true. We're, we were just asking about folks voluntarily foregoing coverage, but what if somebody receives, like, a letter in the mail, they get that cancellation notice, it's involuntary, and they're like, hey, you're no longer going to be covered. What can folks do about that?
- [33:01]
Lisa Gill
Yeah, you know, I will say this. I, I spoke to a number of consumers who that letter sat around when they got in the mail, and they didn't open it because they were just accustomed to having it, you know, their insurance renewed and then opened it and were like, holy, what this is like, I didn't expect that. So if this happens to you at any point, whether you open it immediately or you've accidentally waited, first thing to do is call up the insurance company directly, ask them for an extension because they're going to give you a date. They're going to say, hey, in 30 days or 60 days, 90 days. Sometimes I've spoke to consumers where it was a year, but if it's a really small time, short window of time, small window of time, call them up and ask like it's, it's a courtesy. They don't have to do it. But can you extend this another 30 days while I'm able to either address your concerns or shop around for new coverage. And, you know, it works about half the time, but it is, it's definitely worth trying.
- [33:53]
Joel
Sometimes those concerns are the insurance company says, oh, hey, that the tree, the tree's touching the roof. Or it's like small repairs that you need to do around your home to stay insured, too. Right?
- [34:02]
Lisa Gill
That's exactly right. So that's the next question to ask is like asking either through your broker or directly, why am I being dropped? And then, and then they may be able to show you satellite images and they say, oh, you've got, yeah, you've got trees hanging over the roof. Or your roof looks old, damaged, and you need to repair it. So you're going to want to find out why. And then, and then your next thing is like two steps. You're going to want to appeal the decision, and you're going to want to fix, find out if it's, if any of this is fixable. Like, do you need to trim back branches? Do you, do you need a new roof? Do you need to make a roof repair? Is there something that, that, that an action you could take to get them to reverse the decision? But while all that's going on, you should be shopping around for another carrier, and that's why you need the independent broker to help you.
- [34:44]
Matt
Yeah, I guess the part of me wonders too, if it makes sense to, like, should folks be scared? You know, like, what if somebody gets that letter? And I can see a lot of folks freaking out. I think I'd be concerned if, if they're just like, we're going to straight up drop your tail, you know, like. But like, I'm wondering if some folks out there would see that and immediately freak out and just pay unnecessary amounts of money to repair something that maybe doesn't need to be repaired. And I guess that's where you're saying to kind of push back a little bit to appeal the decision to say, hey, you're complaining about my roof. But like, that roof is only 11 years old. It's good for 20 to 25 years. Is it sort of having that kind of conversation with the insurer?
- [35:22]
Lisa Gill
Oh, yes. So I spoke to consumers where that exactly what you just said happened. And they've, and they, they said, look, I'm going to bring in a couple of roofers, we're going to take pictures, and I'm going to get their statements to submit to you that this is actually a new roof and that the shadow that you're looking at is, you know, is, is actually just a shadow. It's not a, it's not a damaged roof. And that actually worked. That worked for a number of people. And so I would say fighting back is like, like, you have to be a proactive. It's just, it sucks. And nobody wants to do this. You have to be a proactive.
- [35:54]
Matt
Jobs to do. We got other stuff going on. Like, nobody wants to do this.
- [35:56]
Lisa Gill
We have other stuff.
- [35:57]
Matt
Except for Lisa.
- [35:57]
Lisa Gill
We have other stuff. And. But, yeah, right, right. But you know what? Here's why, here is why you're fighting back. If you don't take any action or you're lackadaisical about it and the bank gets wind of this and they find out that you are suddenly not covered, they are going to put their own insurance on you called forced place insurance. This is like, this is like, for bad kids, and you're going to get. You're going to get coverage that is really expensive and not very good.
- [36:26]
Matt
Is it like the COBRA equivalent of homeowners insurance? Really expensive, not so great. On that note, can we talk about health insurance? That's no walk in the park either when it comes to expenses there with medical bills being the number one cause of bankruptcy. Like, what are some of the ways that you would recommend for folks to protect themselves?
- [36:46]
Lisa Gill
Actually, it's the same. It's the same issue. And you know what? I love that you bring it cobra. And then we all laugh because it's like an insider's insurance joke. And it totally was funny.
- [36:55]
Joel
So, yeah, $3,000 a month. Who can't afford that?
- [36:57]
Matt
I was just like, wait, who actually pays for this? This is insane.
- [37:00]
Lisa Gill
A lot of people actually do. So it's similar problem. It's like you got. You're going to have to fight against insurance company to get it down to an amount that you actually can't afford. And the first thing to do is not ignore the bill, even if it just looks like. So check it out. A lot of times you go to, let's say you go to the hospital or you get a plan procedure or even go to the doctor's office and you get the bill in the mail and you're like, oh, it's from, you know, Dr. Lisa Gill. And look, it's $10,000. And you're like, huh? But I have insurance. Why am I getting sent this bill? You got to call up the. At that point, you got to call up the provider and say, look, why didn't you put this through my actual insurance? Why are you sending me, like, the full amount? And they go, oh, we're just sending you that, you know, just to let you know. And you're like, yeah, for your records. And they say, they might say, like, oh, it says on the bottom, this is not a bill. And you're like, yeah, but it looks like a bill. And you send an envelope with it. So it feels like a bill, but. But really that, you know, make that first phone call, like, hey, I want to make sure you've got my correct insurance information. And here, you know, here. Here's all the data. You know, it's all. This is like numbers. So, like, every number can get. Numbers can get inverted, that can be off. And like, one little thing can mean that it does that that $10,000 bill doesn't go all the way through into your insurance because they made a mistake on their end. So you got to call to make sure. Did you make a mistake no. Okay. Next thing you're going to do is wait then for the insurance company to send you what the actual explanation of benefits are and to see if you owe any thing at that point. So you're kind of, you're in a waiting game, but stay on it. Don't assume that it's all over until you see what the insurance company is going to cover. And that's assuming you have insurance and that you're going to use insurance.
- [38:42]
Joel
As a friend of the show who recently passed away, our friend Marshall Allen would have said, never pay the first bill. Never pay the first bill.
- [38:48]
Lisa Gill
Right.
- [38:49]
Joel
But don't ignore that. Yeah, don't ignore it. But also don't pay it because you're waiting for the insurance company to work it out with the provider.
- [38:56]
Matt
Right?
- [38:56]
Joel
That's right.
- [38:57]
Lisa Gill
That's 100% right.
- [38:58]
Joel
Let's talk about like credit scores and past due medical bills and how like, let's say you do ignore. Do you let it go too long or you feel like you weren't able to come to a resolution. We've, we've seen a lot of changes when it comes to how medical providers are allowed to report your non paid bill to the credit bureaus. Where does that stand?
- [39:21]
Lisa Gill
Yeah. So, okay, one, one great thing that consumers might have noticed is that medical bills under $500 can, won't be counted on your credit report as of right now. But there was something even better than that, which was this, that it's like pending. It was advanced by the Consumer Financial Protection Bureau, but the status of that bureau as well as this rule are also pending and really tbd. Yeah. And the idea is that all medical debt, no matter how much it is, would be removed off a credit report. It couldn't live on there whatsoever. And this is the exact reason that you do not want to pay a medical bill with a credit card. Like, like, not just like, oh, here's my $40 copay, here's a credit card. I don't mean that. I mean like, oh, I owe Dr. Lisa Gill $10,000. I can't afford that, so I'm going to put it on the credit card. If you do that, you lose all consumer protections around medical debt and around medical billing and including this issue of getting it off of your credit report so it's, it's counted as a regular. Just like, oh, that's part of your Visa bill. It's part of your bank of America card. You want to actually not do it like that unless you can actually pay it off. The only way it actually lives there. If it is, is if it's coded as medical debt. And a lot of times providers don't actually put that medical debt onto your credit report. If it's unpaid, they wind up selling it to bill collectors and hopefully it is coded properly as medical debt. And then the bill collector has to, you know, follow certain rules, including not putting it on the credit report.
- [41:00]
Matt
What about actually negotiating the specific medical bill like with a provider? How does that process look different than I guess, reaching out to an actual insurer? Is this something that folks can, most folks out there can do on their own. Is this something that they should be like you said, educating themselves and advocating for themselves.
- [41:18]
Lisa Gill
So if so, let's pretend you get like $100,000 bill or something where you're just like, wow, I definitely cannot afford this bill. And the procedure has always already happened. If you have gone to a hospital that is public, it's hard to know this. It's a non, non profit hospital, publicly funded hospital. And that's like about three quarters of all hospitals in the United States. You should find out what kind of patient assistance they may offer you if your insurance is not going to cover or cover very well that bill. And that's, that's actually the first place to start. And a lot of times these hospitals do not want to tell you that they've got a program they may be offering like free, actual, like free all services free. So you would be in the clear or discounted services depending on your ability to pay. But you're going to have to go through some administrative hoops to get it. We always recommend that consumers with this issue go to$4.org they catalog every single patient assistance program in the country for every single hospital that's a nonprofit hospital, literally in every state. And they will help you hold your hand through this process. They have recovered like hundreds of millions of dollars on patients behalf. And so I cannot recommend them enough. But let's pretend that you don't qualify for that. Your next step is to now you're going to talk to them about what you can afford and you want to make sure that like you, you're able to pay for all your other expenses before you pay for your medical debt. But you sit down with a hospital administrator or again the accounting department or any other medical facility and you start to talk to them about what if I paid you cash up front, will you give me a discount? Will you give me a 20% discount? How about a 30% discount and start to like work, work your way from there. And, you know, I've actually skipped over the most important tip and it's what you do before all this, and that is you ask for an itemized bill. So a lot of times the bill that you get in the mail where they say that this is a bill and they do give you the envelope and they expect you to pay it, they're not, they're only showing you the top line of those charges, but they're not showing you every single thing that they charged you for. So you got to typically get on the phone and ask, can you email me an itemized bill of every charge that you're charging me? And at that point, start scanning it and looking for duplicate charges or charges for stuff that you know you didn't get, like certain medications or procedures or, or just like you're looking for errors. That's the first place to start. And then you're going to call them and ask for those errors to be fixed. Second thing is start looking for like outrageous charges where you're just like, there's no way that CT scan is $15,000. That makes no sense. There are different websites you can go to to check what those prices should be. And this, this, again, this sucks. No consumer should have to do this. But this is, this is the process you're going to, you're going to have to engage with if you, you can't afford the bill and, but you need to pay it or at least address it. If you get to the point where you are negotiating like per, like per item, you're like, okay, that, that mri, that CT scan, or that blood test looks so expensive. Healthcare Blue book and also fairhealth.com can list out for you each in your zip code at that hospital what is the usual and customary charge for that procedure. Because you might find out you're being charged way more than what usual and customary is. And you want to make sure that they get that price down to the normal price that you can. That is typically more affordable.
- [44:41]
Joel
If you just point that out and you just say, hey, this isn't usual and customary. Do they usually get in line pretty quick?
- [44:47]
Lisa Gill
Not always. Not always. Which is why sometimes if you are having trouble with this process, they're not listening to you, they're not being helpful. So you, if, if I were giving like, advice to my family, I'd say you need to hire an outside, basically a, a broker, a type of broker, a type of negotiator. It's like they're medical billing consultants that work on your behalf. That Take all your information that they, you pay them in different ways and they are all over the country. You can hire anyone in any state and I can, I can give you some resources at the end when we're finished with this to like let listeners know to places to go look up to find like certified medical billing consultants. But these folks, I've interviewed a number of them. These folks, the really good ones for not a lot of money, will negotiate on your behalf and get these charges down, get the errors out and work with your insurance company if they need to. And that includes like filing appeals. Sometimes insurance is being difficult and not not willing to cover certain things or they've got a dispute about whether or not you got prior authorization. That medical billing consultant can kind of like basically act as a concierge and help get that nice those charges covered.
- [45:57]
Matt
Well, very cool. We got more to get to with you. Lisa might talk about paying less for drugs. We'll get to that more right after this.
- [46:08]
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- [46:40]
Joel
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- [46:51]
Matt
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- [47:14]
Joel
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- [47:53]
Matt
Hi, this is Joel and Matt from the how to Money podcast.
- [47:56]
Joel
Yeah, Matt, this month, my kids, they've got a longer break from school coming up, and I want to take them on a trip somewhere while they've got the time off. Do you have any recommendations?
- [48:05]
Matt
Ooh. Well, I love checking out national parks personally. And Joel, I know that you and the family love hiking together, spending some quality time outdoors as well. You could always check out Yosemite. That's like one of my absolute favorite places on Earth. Starting down there in Curry Village, hiking up out of the Valley, can't beat it.
- [48:22]
Joel
Sounds pretty lovely. That's a good idea. And I'm going to suggest this to my family. I'll let you know what they say.
- [48:26]
Matt
All right.
- [48:27]
Joel
We may not know where we're going yet, but I do know one thing. We'll definitely be checking out the local Airbnbs wherever we end up. It gives us flexibility and incredible options for a place to stay while we're away from home.
- [48:39]
Matt
Plus, while you're away, you can host guests in your home on Airbnb. It's easy and a great way to earn additional income.
- [48:46]
Joel
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- [49:02]
Lisa Gill
All right.
- [49:02]
Joel
We'Re back from the break. Still talking with Lisa Gill, talking about navigating insurance, which is no fun, but there's obviously a lot of money to be saved if you can do it well on both the homeowners and the health insurance fronts. And, Lisa, you've also written about how to save money on prescription drugs. And, you know, I think one easy tip would be to go to Costco's pharmacy. Typically, you're going to save the most money going there, but how else can folks spend less on prescriptions these days? And by the way, you can go to Costco's pharmacy even if you're not a Costco member.
- [49:32]
Lisa Gill
Yes. Yeah, that's what I love about that. That's like one of my favorite tips, really. Almost in every state, you can walk into Costco, don't have to show the card, tell them you're going to the pharmacy, and they will let you right in. Okay. People spend a lot of money on prescription drugs. And the thing that really is terrible is although prescriptions in this country are more expensive than almost everywhere in the world, what most consumers have been experiencing is, is massive changes in the actual insurance coverage for their prescription drugs. And this happens most often in two groups, and that is folks who get their insurance coverage through their employer or if you have Medicare. So that's like your, okay, boomer set, but Medicare Part D. And the reason is that every year, what the insurance companies cover, like which prescription drugs and. And how well they cover them, that actually changes. And it changes. And what it can mean is they decide they're not going to cover something like, let's say you have an insulin. You take insulin because you have type 1 diabetes. You can't live without it, and you can only take one kind of insulin, or you're, you know, you're well controlled on one kind, and boom, January 1st rolls around and that insulin is no longer covered. And all of a sudden it's hundreds and hundreds of dollars Instead of the 35 or 40 bucks you were used to.
- [50:53]
Matt
Right?
- [50:54]
Lisa Gill
So you start to ask questions of that pharmacist. What is the lowest possible price that you can get? You can offer me on this medication, even if it means I don't use my insurance. And honestly, we have found that, like, I don't know how many generic drugs wind up being more expensive on insurance versus just paying a couple of bucks out of pocket. And this isn't. This is Mark Cuban's Cost Plus Drugs entire business model.
- [51:19]
Joel
Well, that's been a game changer.
- [51:20]
Lisa Gill
It really has. And it showed. And if nothing else, along with Costco showed us the actual markups were huge. And they're just like, it's, it's. Honestly, it's criminal. What? And you know, they're not breaking any laws by charging you really high prices. But, but it's morally criminal to charge consumers like 10 times or 100 times more than what the actual value of that little pill is.
- [51:45]
Joel
And if you don't go through your insurance to get the prescription drug, you could save a ton of money. So people. But I think then the trade off is you're not meaning getting closer to reaching your deductible.
- [51:56]
Lisa Gill
You might not be right. You might not be on occasion, if it becomes the case that you wind up having to pay cash for really expensive medication and you've, you know, you've done all your due diligence and you're still writing a big check, you might be able to submit it to your insurance company as like a non authorized payment and they, they might actually cover it sometimes at 20%, 40%. It's, and they might actually put it toward the deductible. There are some, there's a couple of situations in California with certain kinds of coverage where by law they have to pay it out. So it, I know it's a weird hack, but it is worth, you know, not, it's not worth it if it's like 5 bucks, 10 bucks, 20 bucks. But if you're, if you're paying out regularly outside of that insurance coverage, it's worth contacting them and saying can I submit these as like claims, you know, to see if you'll pay for them.
- [52:47]
Joel
Aren't there also discount programs from some of the pharmaceutical companies for some of the more expensive drugs? And how would a consumer go about looking into those?
- [52:55]
Lisa Gill
This is the case where you take a very, like an insulin, you take a very specific drug. There are no generic equivalents and for whatever reason your insurance company is not covering that drug or not covering it very well. So it might be on like a high tier or they've got some crazy cost sharing scheme that it's just costing you a ton of money or your deductible is high for the year and you're just like, I don't want to pay $1,000 or $5,000 before insurance kicks in. One thing to try is manufactured discount coupon program or discount co pay programs. And check this out, it used to be the case. So, so drug manufacturers have become a lot more savvy in what they offer to consumers because of this insurance issue. And so they, they will offer, I'm thinking three different kinds of programs right off the top of my head. One is a co pay program where the drug company, if you, you know, you apply, you give them all your information and they, they're going to help cover a high copay cost and they typically cap it out like 35 bucks or 25 bucks, something like that. And you're going to submit, you know, you'll go through your insurance like normal and they're going to, they're going to help reimburse you and that, that sometimes they do that up to a limit. But it's, it's a totally worthy program and some places still only offer that. But other, what we've noticed is that there are other ones where they'll say hey, you have, you have commercial insurance but you're not going to use it. So let's, let's help k get that full cash price down to $25 or $35. So you don't even, you don't even use your insurance even if you have it. And that's, that's a great, that's a great option when that happens. The third is patient assistance programs and those are usually income based. And so you're gonna have to fill out some forms, maybe show your tax returns, show that you make under a certain amount and it's typically under a hundred thousand dollars, which is incredible. And so, and some places it's even higher than that and you can get medication for free.
- [54:48]
Matt
Awesome. Had no idea that those options were out there for folks. It's super cool. Lisa, we really appreciate you talking with us today. We'll make sure to link to. So you mentioned $4 and that's F.
- [54:59]
Joel
O R, is that right?
- [55:00]
Lisa Gill
Yes, that's right. $4.org.org Nice.
- [55:03]
Matt
We'll make sure to link to that. And we're going to have you send us some of those different consultants, those folks who advocate on your behalf as well, because we want to make sure to be able to link to, to a lot of those folks. Where else can folks find out what, what you've been up to?
- [55:15]
Lisa Gill
Yeah, you know what? ConsumerReports.org, a lot of the stuff I write about is available for free, including tips on how to get insurance, like your insurance down, healthcare coverage, drug costs, credit scores, credit reports, you name it. But it's actually available there. Or you can always do a search for Lisa Gill and Consumer Reports.
- [55:34]
Joel
You're just writing about all the trickiest industries in the United States.
- [55:38]
Lisa Gill
I get all the stuff, stuff that nobody wants to talk about.
- [55:39]
Joel
A glutton for punishment indeed. Lisa, thank you for joining us today. We appreciate it.
- [55:43]
Lisa Gill
Thanks so much. This has been fun.
- [55:45]
Matt
All right, Joel. Insurance man. It's a necessary, it was a fun conversation, but also a necessary one. I'm glad we were able to speak with Lisa today, especially these days.
- [55:54]
Joel
My goodness. Yeah, that's why we wanted to talk about this now.
- [55:56]
Matt
Higher prices all around. What was your big takeaway from our conversation?
- [56:00]
Joel
I think actually. Right. If we stopped recording. One of the things we briefly touched on was the fact that as a consumer, you just have to be vigilant. You have to question everything. Don't accept what comes your way, whether it's a price hike from your homeowners insurance company, whether it's a medical bill from a provider that you saw. And I just think that's true. Like you have to Be vigilant. And that was part of the theme of this episode. You have to. If you get some sort of non renewal notice, you got to fight your insurance company and say, wait a second, why? What's going on here? And. Or if you know, your rate hike goes up and you're like, why is this so expensive now? It's worth asking the question and kind of popping your insurance company in the nose and figuring out why. Or hiring someone to work on your behalf, whether that's.
- [56:44]
Matt
If you don't like violence, hire somebody else to be violent on your behalf.
- [56:47]
Joel
Right. I'm all for that. And I think some people are maybe gravitate towards that more naturally than others. Some people are more just pacifist by nature and they just kind of take it on the chin. They accept it. But especially in this environment of. And how. What's at stake here, you have to figure out how to lean into that.
- [57:03]
Matt
Your money's on the line in order.
- [57:04]
Joel
To navigate the expensive nature of insurance these days. It's kind of on your shoulders. I mean, I don't know. I don't know if it should be. That's the way our system set up, though.
- [57:12]
Matt
Yeah. Okay, so my takeaway then is going to be. She said a term that I've never heard before, and it's when we're talking about homeowners insurance and she mentioned a split deductible, which I'm going to totally look up and see if this is something that's available to me if I have the ability to like, raise my deductible for more catastrophic, like, events on a property while keeping a separate deductible that's a bit lower for things that aren't as big of a deal. Dude, I might do that.
- [57:38]
Joel
I didn't know about that either. Yeah, that's pretty cool.
- [57:40]
Matt
Which I almost clarified, but I was like, no, she said split deductible. So it's a new term. I know we've never talked about it here on the show because I've never even heard of it, but I'm totally gonna look into that myself. And if that sounds like something that might be applicable to your situation, well, look it up as well.
- [57:55]
Joel
Makes me think of. We had a listener question at one time about some type of insurance that was only offered in like, the Northeast from a couple of old school insurers, but it was able to save that listener a bunch of money on. On his insurance costs. I can't even remember the name of that specific insurance right now.
- [58:10]
Matt
It's like one of these. It's like one of these original insurance companies. I think this is up.
- [58:13]
Joel
Like, Ben Franklin founded the company. Yes.
- [58:15]
Matt
He's like, in the Boston area. Yeah.
- [58:17]
Joel
And so, yeah, insurance is one of those things where there are all sorts of products that the average person doesn't know about, even the average money podcast host doesn't know about, because the insurance world can be incredibly complex. But, Matt, let's get to the beer. Get back to the beer that we had on this episode. This one's called Primordia. It's a oak aged mixed culture sour beer by freak folk. What were your thoughts on this one?
- [58:42]
Matt
I thought it was not too dissimilar from the one that we had somewhat recently, though, the one with a cat on it. But this one, it had more oaky notes. So that one was aged in wine barrels. And so it kind of had like this funkiness and this kind of mellowed out, smoother flavor that you get, I guess, when it's aged in. In wine barrels. But this had, like a really punchy, sharp oak flavor, which I am all about.
- [59:05]
Joel
It definitely is mouth puckering.
- [59:06]
Matt
Very mouth puckering. And it's like right on the line of too tart. Like, I like sours that kind of round out and have, like a little bit of sweetness. These are riding the line of man. I don't know if I could handle drinking too much more of this because of the tartness, because of the sour aspect. I like my stuff a touch sweeter.
- [59:23]
Joel
Yeah.
- [59:23]
Matt
You know how I roll.
- [59:24]
Joel
And I like it a little funkier. The last one had more funk that was bringing to the party. This one was more straight up sour. Yeah.
- [59:31]
Matt
But brighter and sharper.
- [59:32]
Joel
Yeah, yeah, it's still really good.
- [59:33]
Matt
Like, it had the oak going on, which anytime there's a whole lot of oak flavor, sign me up.
- [59:38]
Joel
You're in love.
- [59:39]
Matt
I love it.
- [59:39]
Joel
Absolutely. I like this one too. And I'd be curious to try more beers by these guys.
- [59:43]
Matt
For sure. Well, they make a ton of different IPAs. It's funny because I started following them, I guess Instagram, and they keep posting pictures of a bunch of hazy IPAs. And I'm like, well, dang it. The only two that we got were these sours. And maybe their best beers are actually IPAs, I don't know. But these were also fantastic.
- [60:00]
Joel
All right, we'll try some IPAs next time from them. That's going to do it, though. For this episode, we'll put links to some of the resources that Lisa mentioned up on the website@howtomoney.com there's a bunch of other resources there too for you as well, Matt. Until next time. Best Friends Out.
- [60:14]
Matt
Best Friends Out.
- [60:30]
Joel
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