Overcoming Our Idiot Brains (Bestie Ep) #1014

Summary

Summary of "Overcoming Our Idiot Brains (Bestie Ep) #1014"

Podcast Information:

• Title: How to Money
• Hosts: Joel and Matt
• Episode: Overcoming Our Idiot Brains (Bestie Ep) #1014
• Release Date: July 25, 2025

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1. Introduction to Overcoming the Idiot Brain

In this episode, Joel and Matt delve into the psychological barriers that impede effective financial decision-making. They discuss how evolutionary traits, which once ensured survival, now inadvertently sabotage modern financial strategies.

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2. Understanding Self-Sabotage in Financial Decisions

Joel opens the discussion by highlighting common self-sabotaging behaviors related to money. Both hosts acknowledge that everyone, regardless of intelligence or financial literacy, can fall prey to these tendencies.

• Joel [03:06]: "We've all done some dumb things... what's something you do more regularly that you're like, why do I do that?"

Matt shares personal anecdotes, emphasizing that recognition is the first step toward overcoming these habits.

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3. Present Bias and Its Financial Implications

A significant portion of the conversation centers around present bias—the tendency to prioritize immediate rewards over long-term benefits. This bias often leads to excessive spending and inadequate saving.

• Matt [17:15]: "Present bias consumers are more likely to spend in the present and less likely to save for the future."

Joel adds that this bias is a remnant of our ancestors' need for immediate gratification for survival, which clashes with today's need for long-term financial planning.

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4. The Complexity of Compounding Interest

Joel and Matt explore why compounding interest, a fundamental principle for wealth accumulation, is widely misunderstood and underutilized. They illustrate the exponential growth potential with relatable analogies.

• Joel [25:04]: "It's too complex for us to really wrap our minds around... Einstein called compounding interest the eighth wonder of the world."

Matt underscores the importance of starting early with investments to harness the full power of compounding.

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5. The Influence of Personal History on Money Beliefs

The hosts discuss how individual upbringing and early financial experiences shape current attitudes toward money. They emphasize that these deep-seated beliefs often go unnoticed but significantly impact financial behaviors.

• Matt [46:52]: "Your history is going to have an impact no matter what... you either vilify money or you worship it."

Joel suggests introspective questions to uncover and reassess these subconscious beliefs, facilitating healthier financial decision-making.

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6. Marketing Tactics and Consumer Vulnerability

Joel and Matt critique modern marketing strategies that exploit psychological triggers, leading to impulsive purchases and financial mismanagement. They explain how companies manipulate consumer behavior to maximize profits.

• Joel [32:46]: "They want you to feel like a fool for passing up on a deal... that's my lizard brain trying to get me to do something that's not in my best interest."

Matt highlights tactics like limited-time offers, free shipping, and personalized ads that subtly influence spending habits.

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7. Strategies to Overcome Psychological Barriers

To combat these ingrained biases, Joel and Matt propose several actionable strategies:

a. Automating Savings and Investments

Automating financial contributions ensures consistent saving and investment without relying solely on self-discipline.

• Joel [28:25]: "The trick is to then take these principles and apply them to investing... the earlier you start investing, the more you're going to have."

b. Imposing Spending Limits

Setting artificial constraints, such as waiting periods before making purchases, can reduce impulsive spending.

• Matt [37:54]: "Set a 24 or 48-hour waiting period for purchases... use app limiting services to create friction."

c. Charitable Giving

Allocating a portion of income to charity not only aids others but also shifts the focus from consumption to contribution.

• Joel [53:15]: "One of the more ultimate ways... is to spend your money in ways that are sacrificial... encourage folks to be charitable."

d. Self-Reflection and Identifying Money Beliefs

Engaging in introspection helps individuals recognize and adjust negative or limiting beliefs about money.

• Joel [59:22]: "Money is not good or evil. It's a tool that can be used well or poorly."

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8. Conclusion and Key Takeaways

Joel and Matt wrap up the episode by reiterating the importance of understanding and addressing one's psychological barriers to achieve financial well-being. They emphasize that while external tools and strategies are essential, internal reflection and mindset shifts are paramount for lasting change.

• Matt [60:25]: "It's deeper work required... overcoming our idiot brains."

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Notable Quotes:

• Joel [17:15]: "Present bias consumers are more likely to spend in the present and less likely to save for the future."
• Matt [25:04]: "It's too complex for us to really wrap our minds around... Einstein called compounding interest the eighth wonder of the world."
• Joel [32:46]: "They want you to feel like a fool for passing up on a deal... that's my lizard brain trying to get me to do something that's not in my best interest."
• Matt [46:52]: "Your history is going to have an impact no matter what... you either vilify money or you worship it."
• Joel [59:22]: "Money is not good or evil. It's a tool that can be used well or poorly."

---

Key Takeaways:

1. Awareness of Psychological Biases: Recognizing present bias and other cognitive distortions is crucial for effective financial management.

2. Early Investment is Vital: Leveraging the power of compounding interest requires starting investments early and being consistent.

3. Personal History Shapes Financial Behavior: Understanding one's upbringing and past experiences with money can lead to healthier financial decisions.

4. Modern Marketing Exploits Vulnerabilities: Being aware of how marketing tactics influence spending can help individuals resist unnecessary purchases.

5. Implement Practical Strategies: Automating savings, setting spending limits, engaging in charitable giving, and self-reflection are effective methods to overcome detrimental financial habits.

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This episode provides a comprehensive exploration of the psychological factors that hinder financial prosperity and offers actionable strategies to overcome these innate challenges. By addressing both internal mindsets and external influences, Joel and Matt equip listeners with the knowledge to navigate their financial journeys more effectively.

Transcript

[Matt]

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[Joel]

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Hey, it's Joel and Matt from how to Money. Matt, you and I, we do a decent amount of traveling. So what's a place that you think lived up to the hype?

[Matt]

That one is tough, but immediately what comes to mind is Scotland. The scenery in particular was insane. I'm specifically thinking about when we went and hiked Old Man's Store.

[Joel]

Oh yeah.

[Matt]

Felt like we were on a completely different planet. It was otherworldly.

[Joel]

Sure was. Yeah. Yeah. And our Airbnb on the Isle of Skye, man, it looked straight out this field into the sea. Total tranquility. And the castle gardens that we saw. And it felt straight out of a fairy tale.

[Matt]

It's true. Yeah. That trip showed us how big a difference the right place makes. And if you've got travel plans, don't let your place sit empty. Airbnb's co host feature makes it easy to earn a little cash while someone else manages the day to day.

[Joel]

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[Matt]

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[Joel]

I'm Joel.

[Matt]

And I'm Matt.

[Joel]

And today we're talking about how to overcome your idiot brain.

[Matt]

Hey, we've all done some dumb things, Joel, actually. So what's the. Is there something that you do on a recurring basis that is kind of an idiot thing or a dumb thing.

[Joel]

Or ask my wife.

[Matt]

You have two options. What's one of the dumbest things you've ever done? Or what's something that you do more regularly that you're like, why do I do that?

[Joel]

That's not going to admit it this publicly, Matt.

[Matt]

We'll make sure to hit those topics when we have our wives episode later this summer. If I so I thought about this because I was going to ask you this question, but I think one of the dumbest things I ever did was I had a Jeep when I was in high school and I thought that meant, oh, that means I can drive through mud of any depth and doesn't.

[Joel]

Quite work like that.

[Matt]

Well, I, I was such an idiot. Like, I drove, we went, not we. It was just me that there's one mistake. I wasn't. I didn't have a buddy there to, you know, who had my back. But I went to this field that I'd never been to before and it rained a whole lot and there's a bunch of big puddles or so I thought. And so I'm like, like driving around, mud splashing everywhere. I'm just like living the life until the nose of the Jeep just like dives down and it was this massive hole and I couldn't get out and we had to call like a tow truck to winch me out of there. There is, yeah. It was a mess. That was most likely the dumbest thing I've ever done in my life.

[Joel]

I mean, that's not the worst thing. A lot of people have done a lot of dumber things.

[Matt]

It ruined the transmission. Okay, like, like mud and liquid water got into the transmission and the transmission had to be.

[Joel]

That stinks.

[Matt]

That was a costly mistake.

[Joel]

That's no fun. Well, we're going to talk about all sorts of things today on this episode. Ways specifically that our brain works largely because of the thousands and millions of years of evolution. Right. And how it doesn't really work to our advantage in the modern day society.

[Matt]

That's true.

[Joel]

Ways that we're conspiring against ourselves and then how to overcome them.

[Matt]

Yeah. And there's certain things in our more recent history in our own personal lives that has an impact on how it is that we handle our money. And you didn't reciprocate. I was hoping you would have a good dumb story, but you keep thinking about it and folks can hang on at the end of the episode, maybe.

[Joel]

You'Ll tell you one thing. So my girls, they love to hear this one. You tell us one story. When I was in college in South Carolina, it didn't really snow very often, but one time it snowed. And what do idiot college dudes think to do when that happens? Well, we wanted to go skiing, but there's no place to ski in Greenville, South Carolina, naturally. So what we did was we put on the skis, we threw an electrical cable, slammed it in the trunk of my Toyota Camry extension cord and we went skiing on the icy roads. And nobody got terribly injured, but there were some minor injuries at least. That's just like one dumb thing that I remember doing.

[Matt]

See, that just sounds like fun because like you said, nothing bad happened so that was just a good time.

[Joel]

Yeah, been like a dislocated shoulder or something like that. But I think it's about as bad.

[Matt]

Stuff like that all the time. Like, okay, maybe we'll say this one for yeah, I don't want to go down this, this path of dumb stuff that we did that was actually fun, not considered dumb because didn't come with come at a high cost. But actually speaking of college, a quick little story to share with folks. Amazon is actually no longer in the college tec rental business.

[Joel]

Oh yeah, my wife found this out the hard way. So we've talked about this before, how that's a massive way to save when it comes to the tech. Instead of buying brand new or even buying used and then returning it to the school bookstore, renting it instead.

[Matt]

But you're talking about, I mean, hundreds and even thousands of dollars when it comes to the amount that these college.

[Joel]

Textbooks cost for sure. And so my wife, she's in grad school and she's been using Amazon textbooks, checking it against the prices other places too, but Amazon textbooks, I guess they found out we're pricing these things too low and we're not making any money. So they sh. And so now if you want to rent a textbook to save money, which I think is still a good way to go, still a good route to choose.

[Matt]

Tactic.

[Joel]

Yeah. Bookscouter, Ecampus, and Chegg are the three websites you should be checking out. We'll link to those in the show notes.

[Matt]

But those are, I think, Bookscouter in particular. It's like a marketplace. Like, it aggregates a bunch of different additional websites, and you can compare prices easily on there, which is huge.

[Joel]

Huge. And I hate to see one less competitor, especially one as big as Amazon in the space. Yeah. If you. If you were like, my wife and you were bummed and you're like, I don't know where to go now, well, check out one of these sites because, yeah, you still. It's better to rent than to buy.

[Matt]

And so I bet there's probably still a lot of folks out there who have Amazon books that they had rented and you actually have. I think it's until sometime this fall, like August or September, in order to return those.

[Joel]

Those books. We just returned hers for last Dumpster.

[Matt]

You don't get to keep them.

[Joel]

We were shopping for the next semester, and we were like, oh, bummer. But we found. We went to Chegg for. For some of hers and saved some money. But, yeah, just word of the wise, if you're in school, someone who's in school, and they're like, these books are expensive. This is definitely one way to save money.

[Matt]

Absolutely. All right, man, are you ready for this beer?

[Joel]

I'm ready. We're born ready.

[Matt]

It's time to tap some of the beers that I grabbed recently from Asheville, North Carolina. But this is End of Plagues, and this is a beer by Burial Brewing Company. We will enjoy this one during this episode and share our thoughts at the end of the episode.

[Joel]

Burial always so chill in their naming conventions. Not. All right, let's move on. Matt, let's get to the topic we want to discuss on this episode, which is overcoming your idiot brain. And specifically, how our brains process information that make us bad with money. And we've all seen the meme of the guy on the bike who puts a stick in his own wheel and he falls off. It's kind of become ubiquitous at this point. There are literally hundreds of different memes based on this goofy, poorly drawn comic. And for instance, Matt, I saw one. The first line says, 15 holes of good golf. And then it says, my brain realizing I'm playing well as he puts the stick in the front wheel and then what happens? And he's lying on the ground, writhing in pain. It's amazing. That just reveals a deeper truth. Whenever you attach something to this meme.

[Matt]

Yeah. One of my favorite. It makes me think of like the first one's like, I'm tired at work, falling asleep at my desk, drinks a big old cup of afternoon coffee as he sticks the stick in his box and can't sleep at night is the end result, which I feel like is something we've all done.

[Joel]

Yeah, for sure. And the truth is, it's not really all that hard for any of us to become our own worst enemy on the money front. Right. And that, yeah, good intentions just aren't going to get the job done. So today we want to talk about some of the common ways we're conspiring against ourselves. And then we don't want to offer an antidote or multiple antidotes to help us make the progress we're looking to achieve. More possible, more. More of a reality.

[Matt]

Yeah. Like, that's what makes these memes so hilarious and poignant at the exact same time. Right. Is that because, like, we know the truth, like we know what it is that we should be doing, but then we go and we basically do the exact opposite.

[Joel]

Right.

[Matt]

We've all been there and it's impacted all areas of our lives as well, I think. Like, anyone ever sabotage relationship. Have you ever sabotaged a job interview?

[Joel]

Almost like subconsciously though, right?

[Matt]

Yeah. Like, even without realizing, I think sometimes we only become aware of it, like what we have done after the fact, in hindsight, like, oh wait, that's how I.

[Joel]

That's how I ruined that thing.

[Matt]

Yeah. Like, I mean, honestly, like that's what it means to be human. Like, we get to just revel in the complexity and the incomprehensibility of being human beings. But as, as Carl Jung said, until you make the unconscious conscious, it will direct your life and you will call it fate.

[Joel]

Profound.

[Matt]

Yeah. Yeah. When we leave these underground, subterranean thoughts and beliefs unexamined, untapped, we're going to be prone to make the same mistakes just on repeat throughout our lives. Honestly, it's truly amazing that humanity has even come this far, given our tendencies to self sabotage. Luckily, we have great philosophers and thinkers like Carl Jung who have paused and they cause us to think a little bit. And so maybe spend some time digging below the surface a little bit. And honestly, even today, I think just the emotional or like mental health has risen in prominence. And I think that's a good thing because I think that has allowed a lot of folks to maybe think a little bit more about why it is that they're doing the things that they're.

[Joel]

Doing so they can hopefully avoid sticking the stick in the wheel again, basically stymieing their own progress and hurting their own ability to do the things that they really do want to achieve in favor of often kind of some sort of short term reward. And I do think that thinking and feeling affect the way we handle our money so much more than we give it credit for. And even more so than the immutable characteristics that we possess like our personal history and our personality tendencies are likely to play a bigger role in how we react to spending and investing than even our age or our education level.

[Matt]

Yeah, it's not about your skills and how good you are at school.

[Joel]

Right? Yeah. It's really about your history and kind of different things probably that formed early in life. I mean, we're going to sound like a psychotherapist here, like you're laying down on the couch and we're just picking your brain or something like that. But it really is true that a lot of kind of how we have come to view and think about money has been tainted, has been informed by those early years. And so it doesn't matter how good you are at math, that's not a prerequisite for handling money well either. It's really difficult to remove ourselves from our day to day way of living in order to understand and come to grips with the groundwork that we've laid already that's been laid over, you know, especially those first formative years which informs how we're making decisions in the present that impact our lives on an ongoing basis.

[Matt]

Yeah, I mean, it doesn't help that everyone out there is basically trying to sell you something, you know, like attention. It's the most important commodity that we have in this day and age. And every company out there is they're doing their absolute best to hijack our attention for their profit. It makes me think about, we recently talked about the TV and like you're having your attention, you're having your literally your eyeballs hijacked in order to get something for free.

[Joel]

Free tv. And you say, and then, you know, it comes at a high cost that.

[Matt]

Well, initially it seems like it's a low cost in that case. Right. Like the free tv.

[Joel]

But they should ultimately do, except for no money.

[Matt]

Yeah. Ultimately what this means are more dollars flowing out of your life because of it. And social media is a great example as well. But a plethora of streaming options. Like that's an entirely. I feel like that we have to fight. Right. Like there are still like more good TV shows out there than any sane human being could possibly watch. There's a lot of bad ones out there too, but a lot. Even just goofy little games like Candy Crush on our phones, like these are all distractions that are pulling at us. And the more that we give in to these distractions, the less productive and the more unhappy that we're going to become. And we say it like no judgment here. Right. By the way, we fall prey to these same distractions, these same things that are constantly vying for our attention. And so maybe a part of why we're covering this topic. Like we're doing this for ourselves.

[Joel]

Sure.

[Matt]

As well as for you.

[Joel]

Yeah. No, I mean, I think, yeah. That the goal of this is. You and I are always trying to be lifelong learners too. We don't want to just point fingers at anybody who uses Candy Crush and call them crazy or anything like that. I try to avoid games, video games, any sort of games on my phone, but I realize that they bring some people a lot of joy and in fact they help your motor skills and coordination to some degree too. So I'm not saying there's no positive at all. Yeah. But what we're talking about, it's just.

[Matt]

A double edged sword though, you know, like that's the thing with tech in particular. Like, like when we were talking about counseling earlier. It also makes me think of like the rise in like headspace. Like there are some different apps out there that cause people to slow down and to pause and reflect. But it's a double edged sword because like 500 years ago, like back in the day, I'm guessing there was probably less issues when it came to mental health. I don't know if that's proven. That's just, this is just. That's just my assumption. They probably didn't need some of these apps because in today's environment, like the way things are today, our, again, our attention is just hijacked constantly. Instead of having downtime where we might naturally reflect on things, where we might naturally have a conversation with a loved one and do some of the things that matter more instead. Yeah, we're just scrolling social media and.

[Joel]

So we have to be more purchases, more proactive basically because of the nature of the society, society we live in and because of the things that are the flaming arrows that are aimed our way, we need some sort of like shield to fend them off. So that we can protect ourselves. And Seth Godin, he writes about defeating the lizard brain. And that's kind of like what we're talking about here in this episode. The basic part of our psyche that only cares about the most fundamental aspects of life like surviving, eating and procreating, which are all good, necessary things. I like all the above. But that lizard brain can also cause us to function with a survivalist short term mentality. And Matt, I remember hearing Tim Urban say this, he said world we were programmed to be in didn't have long term projects that often. So basically the reality that our ancestors grew up in long term wasn't really a thing. Nobody was investing for retirement. Our brains haven't kept up with the new reality of much longer lifespans and 401ks and all the stuff that come along with those things.

[Matt]

2023 baby.

[Joel]

Right. And so it's just no surprise that our brains have had trouble keeping up with this new reality, albeit a very fortunate reality. Right. I mean I personally like electricity, I like indoor plumbing. I'm not mad about any of progress that we've made. But it comes with, like I said, double edged sword. It comes with the downside and some something we need to pay attention to if we want to live a fulfilling life and one that also comes along with financial security at the same time.

[Matt]

Yeah, yeah. There's no part of me that wants to go back 500 years ago. There are a lot of things that we don't have to worry about. There are a lot of diseases that would not so much progress. Yeah, exactly. Like I'm very, very happy to be living in the year that we're, I.

[Joel]

Mean even if you're, if, even if you're in the, the bottom 20th percentile of Americans, you're living better than French kings did 300 years ago, which is, I mean, just pretty amazing to think about.

[Matt]

Like they had some perks, they would.

[Joel]

Trade places with you three years ago.

[Matt]

Okay. So one of the problems I think we face that stems from what Seth Godin calls the lizard brain is that we all have a tendency to overvalue the present. This is called present bias. There's a study from 2019 and they found that present biased consumers are more likely to spend in the present and less likely to save for the. And obviously this makes sense given where we've come from ancestrally. Like our brains, they just haven't adapted to this long term thinking that's required as lifespans have increased and just our need to build up assets for potentially multiple decades. That's the reality now that we live in.

[Joel]

It's the exact opposite of what used to happen when our ancestors would come across food. Now we have as much food as we want at our fingertips. To a certain degree. Right. You can walk into a grocery store, get whatever you want. Before it was like you come upon food, you almost have to hoard it. Yeah, you almost have to eat it upon arrival.

[Matt]

You don't want that honey, like that's some good stuff. But now everything is sweet and we still crave sugars.

[Joel]

That's right. But unlike our ancestors, we can get them whenever we want. And so we don't have to.

[Matt]

And they're quite refined, but we still.

[Joel]

Like to eat them the way our ancestors did. And so when we have it like we want to consume it.

[Matt]

Yeah, yeah. Because this present bias is something that we're continually rubbing up against. We just have a hard time mastering this self control. Even though we know that we don't need, for instance, those additional calories via that sugar, we lack the self control that's needed when it comes to your finances, curb spending and to set more aside for your future. But the good news is that there are some tools at our disposal in order to help us, you know, within this quest on our as we're on our path to financial independence, so we'll discuss some other psychological hurdles that we face and how to overcome them right after this.

[Joel]

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[Matt]

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[Joel]

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[Matt]

Yeah, when you're young and life is simple, getting a trust or will in place is not a high priority. But life gets more complicated when you start throwing kids into the mix. Once you add an investment property or two, once that's a part of the equation, I know I've got the peace of mind knowing that I've got this checked off my to do list. And you can too. Because Trust and Will's website is easy to use, it's simple to navigate. Plus all your information and documents are securely stored with bank level encryption. Each will or trust is state specific, it's legally valid, and it's customized to your needs.

[Joel]

Yeah, we can't control everything, but Trust and Will can help you take control of protecting your family's future. Trustandwill.com howtomoney and get 20% off. That's 20% [e-mail] so Joel, you know.

[Matt]

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[Joel]

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[Matt]

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[Joel]

Alright, Matt, let's keep going. We're getting psychological with this one. It's true. Our BR conspire against us and they cause us to do things that aren't in our best interest.

[Matt]

And overcoming the ancestral lizard brain.

[Joel]

Yeah, I mean, I think back to middle school and just. Or even high school, I was bad with the ladies. And I remember trying, like I wanted to ask somebody out on a date or something like that. I was so nervous that that person was going to say no. And it took me a while to come to grips with the fact that what if they do say no? What's the worst thing that happens? Like, you feel bad for a second. What if they say yes? You have this awesome chance to hang out with this person that you would really like to spend some time with.

[Matt]

Going back to Joel's base desires.

[Joel]

Exactly. Well, these are the kind of things that, like, we have a hard time rationalizing. It took me a long time to come to that conclusion, to realize that the stakes were actually a lot lower.

[Matt]

Than I thought that you weren't in literal life. Harm. That's what it feels like when faced with either confrontation, at least when you're 16. Yeah, something like that. It feels that like, literally, I'm going to die. Which is why that's a phrase that you hear teenagers say. Because I think a lot of times, like they haven't oftentimes identified that, no, you're not literally going to die. Even though I totally get that. That's what it feels like.

[Joel]

Yeah.

[Matt]

That's what we're oftentimes trying to overcome. Right. But like we were just talking about present bias, you know, just before the break and how we fail to think ahead, how we fail to prepare for the future by investing our money. And I think that one of the reasons that so many folks don't have enough in retirement is simply because it's so difficult for us to understand the concept of compounding. Right. Like, it is tough to wrap your mind around. I would say that most things in our lives actually occur linearly. It's nice and orderly. One thing happens after the other as opposed to things happening exponentially, which at least personally, it feels a bit more chaotic. It's certainly more complex but it's also more difficult to comprehend.

[Joel]

It's too complex for us to really wrap our minds around. It's kind of like those big, big numbers. Like, oh, a trillion dollars worth of.

[Matt]

This spending is like, what exactly does that mean?

[Joel]

And we bill like that and we just chalk it up to, oh, future, future generations, just a headline, paying off these debts. But a trillion dollars is substantial. And we just. I'll admit I have a hard time explaining how much a trillion dollars is. It's pretty. It blows my mind.

[Matt]

Yes. Okay, so, for instance, so we're talking about numbers. Take a simple math problem of addition. 5 +5 +5 +5 +5.

[Joel]

And so I know the answer.

[Matt]

Pick me if you're keeping up. You heard me say five, five times. So we're talking about a sum of 25. There you go. I'm hoping there's a lot of folks that answered out loud. But now take those same fives and then multiply them, right? So five times. Five times. Five times. Five times five. We might have some rare math geniuses out there, but the answer here is 3125. Okay, and this is.

[Joel]

I wouldn't have gotten that one.

[Matt]

I wouldn't have either. Basically, what I'm getting at, it's. This is a much more complex problem, and it's just. Just simply more difficult to comprehend and then to actually apply it to our money, specifically to our investments.

[Joel]

Yeah, but this is so important to understand because this is the basis for returns that we're going to get in the stock market. It's a different set of skills, and most folks are not able to simply figure this out on the fly. So let's give another example on the compounding front, Matt, like, imagine taking a big sheet of paper and folding it in half, but then you fold it in half again and again until you've done this 50 times, which 50 sounds reasonable, right?

[Matt]

Because you're like, you can do something.

[Joel]

54 and a half, 50 times, but no, you physically impossible. Right? But if you were to do this, if it were possible, how tall would that stack of paper be? It turns out it would be 64 million miles tall, around two thirds of the distance to the sun.

[Matt]

Which is crazy.

[Joel]

Doesn't seem right when you put it in terms like that. But that's what would happen if you had the ability to make it happen. And so it's no wonder that Einstein called compounding interest the eighth wonder of the world. It's a wonder in the fact that our brains can't wrap around It. But it's also a wonder in the fact that it can be a wealth generator. Even though our rudimentary brains have a hard time understanding exactly how it works, the reality is that it does work, and it works to our advantage.

[Matt]

It just doesn't work the way we think it should work. It just doesn't make sense. Even though you can sit down and crunch the numbers, do the math. I think the rest of the Einstein quote is that those who understand compound interest will actually earn it, and those who don't are going to end up paying it. But again, just because our dumb brains don't actually, like, naturally conclude that this is possible, this doesn't mean that we can't actually do the math and figure it out, because we just did it right. Like, people have calculated what the distance of that sheet of paper would be were you to fold it 50 times. And then. So the trick is to then take these principles and apply them to investing. Basically, the earlier that you're able to start investing, the more that you're able to keep at it, the more that you're going to have. At the end of the day, what seems small is going to be able to grow large because of this reality that can just be so difficult to grasp. The longer you allow your investments to double and then double again, the more money is going to grow, giving you lots more options. So one last example. Let's say you start out with nothing saved for retirement. Like, literally, you've got zero in your Roth IRA or your 401K.

[Joel]

Hopefully that's not where most of our listeners find themselves.

[Matt]

Hopefully. Yeah, hopefully you've got like a little bit of seed money. Right? Right. But let's say that that is where you're starting from. You've literally got nothing set aside for retirement. Were you to max out your Roth IRA every year at $6,500, it's going to take you a little less than 36 years to reach millionaire status to hit those, you know, those seven digits. That is a long time, I will say. And again, but that's assuming you know, you're starting with nothing, a little less than 36 years. But then how long before you have $2 million? Well, you'll actually hit that milestone in less than 10 additional years. But then, guess what, five more years in addition to that. Well, then you're up to $3 million. So the first million took you a little less than 36 years, but then the subsequent millions after that then take less than 10 and then around five years.

[Joel]

They always say Your first crazy. Your first million is the hardest.

[Matt]

Well, yeah, no joke. When you understand compounding.

[Joel]

Exactly.

[Matt]

You can, like, you can truly understand, like, again, it's hard to wrap your mind around, but you don't. You don't have to totally understand it where it, like, makes sense in your mind in order for you to put.

[Joel]

It to use, in order for you to trust the principle. Exactly. And see the reality of what it can provide. Yeah, you're right. And I do think that that is a really interesting point, that the first million is harder largely because your money is not working for you on your behalf, yet you're working to funnel money into this account that's going to eventually do the work for you. But it takes a while for that work to start to start happening. But then once it starts happening, it starts to happen quickly. It's like a snowball rolling downhill. Right? That's right. And so that's why our. Again, have a hard time understanding this concept. But if we can kind of at least understand it a little bit and then do trust the principle, trust the reality that this is how money works and how investing your money is going to help grow your money over time, we can take advantage of it. Whereas our lizard brain wants to say, I don't know about this. I can't quite understand it. And so maybe I should avoid, like, going in this direction. I think that's probably where a lot of people, a lot of people stand, the way a lot of people think about investing or saving money for the future.

[Matt]

Okay, so this is a random thought, but I was thinking back to like 500 years ago or, I don't know, like 5,000 years ago or something. But like, in my mind, the only way that I feel like folks way back in time had the ability to experience exponential growth or compounding like that is if. So the beer we're drinking is called end of plagues is if they were. If there was a plague upon them, like, literally like a plague of locusts or rats or something like that. I feel like back then they would say, even then they. They didn't totally understand it, even though they experienced it. And what they would say is like, oh, man, the gods must be mad at me. We must sacrifice whatever we need to do in order to appease the gods. But that's an example of exponential growth, right? Like when you've got a locust that multiplies and then those locusts multipl, you know, like that is an instance, I think, in natural, I don't know, in the natural environment. Where you might have experienced, experienced exponential growth or compounding maybe again 500 years ago.

[Joel]

So if they'd known a little bit more, they would have realized what was going on beneath.

[Matt]

They would have said, aha, here's what's going on.

[Joel]

This is just science, not some sort of apocalyptic plague being sent after me by some higher power.

[Matt]

Yeah, sure.

[Joel]

Yeah. All right, well, let's talk about how our lizard brains work against us in regards to how we use money in the present too. I think one way that our idiot brains keep us from making progress is it stops us from investing as much as we could or as much as we should, should, because we don't fully comprehend the process or not willing to funnel our money in that direction. But on the other side of the coin is the fact that we don't save and invest enough because we're spending every dollar we make. And that is the American way. Right. I think when you look at the savings rate right now in the United States of America, it's like what, 2.3 cents on the dollar is what we save on average, which is pretty pathetic. And specifically, let's throw out some examples, Matt, and discuss kind of what's going on under the surface. Some situations that might trigger our idiot brains, but tricking us really into doing something that's not in our best interest. I feel like this often hits us on the shopping front. And I think especially in our ever interconnected world, we're just bombarded by ways, avenues and means to shop more than ever before too.

[Matt]

Yeah, like the 70% off sign, falling prices at Walmart, or tough to resist. Like sales like this just trigger us so much. Like I feel like it activates something within that lizard brain. It's sort of like this, this limited time only phenomena which again, a long time ago we had to take advantage of stuff like that when we were hunter gatherers. But now that impulse is working against us. And even more so given the preponderance actually of fake deals out there that can be found online thanks to the way that pricing works on the Internet. What's the actual real price? Who knows, right? Like what is the actual list price, what is the manufacturer? Is that the, what the thing actually costs? Well, of course not, because there's profit built in. But it's tough to know what, you know, how good of a, of a deal that you're actually, that you're actually looking at. But when you're shopping online, you see that it's negative 30% and it's written in all red. We're conditioned to know, oh, it's time to pounce. We've been conditioned to know that this is a deal. It's a signal to buy. And the original price, it's grayed out, it's got like a little, little line cut through it. And I saw to Amazon, they're just stacking all the tactics against us and now it says, like, deal. And it's also written in like all caps, red letters, in order to, again, to kind of evoke that emotion that tells us that we should be making a purchase right now.

[Joel]

They want you to feel like a fool for passing up on a deal as good as this one, which I'm going to be honest, like, this is one that has been difficult for me for a long time.

[Matt]

Time.

[Joel]

Because that I feel like I've gotten a lot better. I've grown in this. But only as I've started to realize the fact that this is what's happening behind the scenes. Right? Only as I've started to be like, wait a second, that's my lizard brain trying to get me to do something that's not in my best interest. But I was like, all about the deals. And I was like, I realized I was just spending too much time thinking about buying stuff and trying to get a good deal on things. And the best thing to do was to want less stuff and to care less about the prices of things. Things and just not be into shopping nearly as much as I was. So I think I inherited that gene from my mom to a certain degree. Not trying to throw shade, mom, but this is one of those things where I think a lot of people, especially in today's era when Amazon and Instagram and email newsletters kind of pull at us, trying to get us to spend money, part us from our money, and they're using all sorts of sneaky tactics. It is something like most of us are susceptible to.

[Matt]

Yeah, well, I mean, like you said email newsletter or whatever, like the abandonment cart email where a retailer checks in with you. I mean, dude, like, there is an.

[Joel]

Entire offering you an additional discount because you walked away.

[Matt]

Here's a coupon code. Did life get busy, like, all of these things that triggered the like, oh, yeah. This is something that was important to me that I should be doing and I should be so thankful that they're following up with me. It's CRM, like Customer Relationship Management. That is an entire industry. And it's not that it's evil, but I mean, their sole goal is to get you to buy more stuff, whether that's them keeping up with the different purchases that you've made. But not oftentimes. It's not even the things that you buy. It's the stuff that you're looking at. It's the things like on Instagram, it's the ads that you linger on or the ads that you swipe on where there's a carousel because you're like, oh, I really like that first item. Let me see if they got some of this other stuff on sale when you start swiping and then you're feeding the system, going back to the whole free TV thing, like, they now know more about you. That's going to end up costing you more money down the road.

[Joel]

Yeah. Window shopping used to be a completely innocent activity, and now window shopping is, or watching you, a window into your soul for advertisers, for people that want to sell you stuff, which is only really putting us at more of a disadvantage when it comes to, like, our brain and how we react.

[Matt]

Yeah. And this isn't to, like, demonize folks that are in that, like, I used to be in advertising myself. But it's important as consumers to highlight the fact that this is what's going on so that we're essentially, we're equipping other consumers out there so you can.

[Joel]

Put that shield up.

[Matt]

It's a fair fight.

[Joel]

Yeah. And be like, stop.

[Matt]

Yeah.

[Joel]

Well. And we'll give some practical ways, too, in a bit to kind of help make that a reality, to help stop your brain from progressing this way. But part of the beginning, at least, is to highlight some of the ways that it happens. Another thing is like the impulse buy. Right. That's a struggle for lots of other people out there. It's not just a sale. It's a good deal. But it's. It's. And maybe sometimes you do find the perfect thing at a thrift store or an artist market. I've done that. And you make the purchase because it really is kind of something that's not going to come along again. But there's often something else that causes us to make an impulse buy. It's when we feel like we deserve it. Right. It's time to treat ourselves. And so maybe you've had a hard week at work, which in reality is.

[Matt]

Just a moment of weakness.

[Joel]

Exactly. That's exactly what it is. It's not that you've actually found the right thing that's never going to come along again. It's that you're trying to soothe yourself through some consumption. And so yet buying something can provide A temporary relief. It can make you feel better for a second. Like, you click by and you're like, ah, I feel, I'm. You know, this is just a method of sweet solace, self soothing. Right. But look back maybe to a recent impulse buy. What emotions triggered it and how did you feel afterwards? I think those are good questions to ask yourself. And I realize maybe I'm sounding a little bit like a therapist right now, taking a page out of my wife's book. But asking those questions are going to help you get to the heart of the why behind the impulse spending that you've done. And it can allow you to recognize them moving forward. Because it's typically Matt, it's going to be those same impulses, those same triggers that cause you to do it in the future. And if you can identify those them, you might be able to catch yourself in the act next time you are tempted to buy on the fly.

[Matt]

That's right, yeah. So retailers, they also use just different subtle tricks out there as well, like free shipping. Again, like when it comes to online shopping, that's one of the words that's written in all caps and emboldened off to the side, you see free and you think, oh yeah, somehow this is free. Even though there is a price associated with it.

[Joel]

You know, they're not losing money on the shipping. Come on.

[Matt]

Exactly. It's not truly free shipping. Shipping. And we also know that even if we pay for something in four easy installments that will end up paying the same amount in the end. They're just making it easier for you.

[Joel]

Yeah, buy now, pay later. Adds to the frictionlessness of it all.

[Matt]

Yeah, they're reducing the friction just enough.

[Joel]

But we know logically we're paying the same amount anyway.

[Matt]

Yeah, but by doing that, they're able to actually garner a sale from us that otherwise they wouldn't get. And we find ourselves parted with our money when we might have otherwise saved. So again, awareness of how these different strategies and tactics and tricks impact us is crucial so that we can put up a good fight. I will say, like, I think for me, I don't know, for me to say the whole sale mentality, it's not something that gets me, you know, my adrenaline, my eyes don't dilate or whatever.

[Joel]

My people don't die as an impervious.

[Matt]

Robot to a certain extent. But you know what I'm not impervious to what is message like when they try to sell you an image or when they're trying to sell you basically like a, a message even if it's subconscious. Right. Like, I'm specifically thinking about it. Like, I bought a really nice coffee grinder recently. We talked about it maybe a couple months ago. I was thinking about getting. Actually, we talked with Brandon on Monday. That's one of the things him and I nerded out about because he actually recently bought a blade. Well, mine is a flat blade grinder. I think his was conical.

[Joel]

Oh, I don't know the difference.

[Matt]

Yeah, he was also considering mine. But the way that that thing is styled and the way it's designed, it's. It's like matte black. The design is. I mean, it's. It's beautiful. It sits there on your counter. And so the reason it's well reviewed and stuff is because it actually does grind your coffee really, really well. So practically speaking, it does an excellent job. But you're also buying the image, right?

[Joel]

Like, the way we're always being sold an image right now.

[Matt]

Yeah, it's just branded in such a cool way, and it's like, minimalist. And I think there's a part of me that bought into that where it's just like, by getting this thing, you're gonna be cool like all the other guys. Like. Like, this is gonna make your house look like the counters that this coffee grinder is featured on within the pictures on our website.

[Joel]

It's okay to have certain aesthetic preferences and to say, like, this is my style. This is. This is my jam. I'm into this. That's totally fine. But I think there's also a lot of advertising that is subtly weaving that into Absolutely our brains. And it's saying. It's not even telling us about the product. It's just by association saying if you do or drink or. Or buy or hang out with this product, you are by proxy gonna be cooler than you currently are.

[Matt]

You're gonna be a cool, hip dude.

[Joel]

Right?

[Matt]

Right. Yeah. And even if it practically accomplishes what it is that you want to accomplish because you are checking off the boxes and whatnot, I think we are still susceptible to that kind of branding. And the fact is, nobody cares. It's not like anybody thinks that I'm cooler because I got, like, nobody sees the stupid thing. Like, I don't invite people over for coffee. Maybe I should, I guess, is what I'm now learning just to show off. Just to show off my fancy. Anyway, I just wanted to mention that, too, because I think there are some of these more subtle subconscious brandy kind of not like, you know, not the liquor, but, like, where there's A brand and you're kind of buying into the brand and that's actually how they're able to make the sale. Right. It's not that they dropped a sale on me. It's not that I did it impulsively where. No, I've been researching this for months. But there's another part of it where I paid a premium for it.

[Joel]

Well, I think that's what they say about billboards and commercials. It's not that they're trying to make the sale instantly. They're trying to slowly mold your mind into thinking something about that product or brand so that eventually you come around when you're like, oh yeah, now I need a car. Ah, remember that Toyota RAV4 commercial? Maybe that's the one for me. I don't know. It's that kind of stuff that really.

[Matt]

That family looked like my family. I can see us driving that kind of car.

[Joel]

Yeah, exactly. That's the kind of, that's the kind of tricks are being played on us slowly but surely. But there are a lot of things that we can do. There are a lot of things in our power to react and to combat these subtle and not so subtle hints.

[Matt]

Sure.

[Joel]

Ways that we're parted with our money, whether it's on the spending or, or just on the not investing side. We'll get to a bunch of our thoughts on how to make progress, how to overcome the lizard brain, financially speaking. We'll get to that right after this. Tracking your spending, well, it might seem daunting, but it's a crucial first step to taking control back. And that's because finances that can be messy and confusing. Well, Monarch Money acts like your personal cfo, giving you full visibility and control so you can stop earning and start growing. Monarch has so much functionality, but the basic dashboard even is just one of my favorite features. You get your net worth, your goals and crucial budgeting data all right there when you first log in.

[Matt]

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[Matt]

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[Joel]

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[Matt]

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[Joel]

Yeah Matt, the listener feedback we get about policygenius is top notch, right? They love how easy it is to cross this off their to do list. And that's because policygenius helps you compare your options by getting quotes from America's top Insurers in just a few clicks to find your lowest point price. And then policygenius, they lay out all your options clearly, right? Coverage, amounts, prices, terms. There's no guesswork, just clarity.

[Matt]

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[Joel]

Can I just say, this is not about IQ either. This is. Oh, yeah, I think there's a lot of people who are like, I'm in Mensa, okay? I don't have an idiot brain. My IQ is 148. And I think these are the things that, again, we all have this lizard brain part in the back, and we're all tempted to. Or subconsciously reacting in these ways.

[Matt]

We're talking about the subconscious.

[Joel]

No matter how freaking smart you are, no matter whether you're an engineer or. Or you stock the shelves at your local grocery store, it doesn't matter. We're all susceptible to these things.

[Matt]

Well, that's what makes this so interesting, right? Like, we are fascinated by just this behavioral psychology element and how it is that it's gonna impact how we handle our money, both collectively as a society, but also as individuals. And so another factor that plays into how we personally interact with our finances has to do with our history with money. Our beliefs about money often stem from. From how it impacted us in our childhood. This makes me think back to our Freudian. Yeah, so we had a conversation. We had Christy Shen on the podcast as an interview back in episode 118. We'll link to that one in the show notes. But she grew up on 44 cents a day in China. And when you do that, that is going to make you appreciate the wealth and the opportunities available to you when you finally arrive in North America. Or for her campaign, Canada. Specifically, Canada's in North America. But if you grew up in, like, an affluent suburb, like, you might have seen the downsides of money, right? Like, you may have been confronted with the signaling and the unhappiness that it can produce. Some people, like Christy and much of the fire community, like, they are able to see money as a tool in order to earn their freedom. And we tend to agree that freedom is one of the best things that money can buy. But it's important to identify your history and what it is that informs how it is that you view money, some of the different attributes that you associate with your money.

[Joel]

Yeah. I think if you grew up in China and you come to North America, you see.

[Matt]

No, Joel. Canada.

[Joel]

Canada. Canada. You see it, I think, as mostly a good thing, right?

[Matt]

Yeah.

[Joel]

But if you, let's say you hung out with Jordan Belfort Wolf of Wall street sort of thing, which I never saw the movie, I just know very little. But if you hung out in those environments, you might think, think money is all bad and only terrible people have money. Right. And so you, you might use. There's associations that we make that really, when you think about it and when you do a little bit of introspection, you might be able to find some ties that you can untangle a little bit in terms of how you view money. And maybe the way you think about it stems from some experiences from elementary, middle or high school. And you, some of those things might have informed you well enough, others maybe not so well. And Sarah Newcomb, who writes about money psychology for Morningstar, I like that she shared this article and she wrote some, she had some great prompts, some, some questions really, to help reveal what's going on under the surface in terms of our money beliefs. We'll link to that article in the show notes because I think it's helpful to look at. But let's go over them real quick because I think they're, they're just really insightful or they can help you find some insight. But first, she tells people to fill in the blank. Money is what? And then you tell your answer and you talk about why. It'll tell you a lot about your current underlying beliefs. Money is blank, like fill in the blank. What is money for you? I think that is going to give you a lot of insight as to how you think about money, how you feel about money, and what's going on below the surface. Second, she says, if money was a character in your life, would it be a friend or foe, a villain or hero? I think that's a helpful question as well, because some people have an inherently antagonistic view and approach towards money. They kind of view it as inherently bad. We talked about how it's not. It's really just this kind of neutral thing, but we make attachments to it. And I think seeing how you view it from that perspective can be helpful. Third, she says, growing up, what was your financial situation? How did the people raising you handle their money? Do you see any ways that this affects the way you think about or handle money? Today for me, yes. Even talked about it with Brandon on Monday's episode. I mean, this is one of those things where I was particularly especially influenced by the way money was handled in my house growing up. I'm sure other listeners have a similar sort of story. Right. Background, so. But thinking through those things and not just letting them subconsciously inform how you handle money, but bringing them to the forefront, to the surface, consciously thinking about them will allow you then maybe to combat some of those dark realities that you grew up with.

[Matt]

Yeah. And I would say that the argument we're making is that regardless if it was good or bad, your history is going to have an impact no matter what. And it oftentimes comes down to how you then react to that history. Because, like, in your case, you reactive, reacted like you were polarized. Like you did the opposite, essentially. Right. But like, I think back to my history, me growing up with money. And like, we certainly had enough, but it wasn't like the amount of money my folks had. But honestly, it was just the great way that they talked about it. Like, I specifically, like, I might be one of the, like, okay, we were talking about compounding earlier and this was a lesson that I learned literally, I think at age 11, I specifically remember my dad sitting at the desk in our kitchen and him explaining compounding interest. And when your money starts working harder for you, then you are able to like. And that puts me in incredibly, like, rarefied waters. Like, I was incredibly lucky to have. Have had that taught to me at a young age. I didn't fully understand it then, but I do think that that certainly planted the seeds of my, you know, the basis, I guess, of my financial education. But again, I'm highlighting this because, A, I was most definitely lucky. But a lot of folks like you said, they're. You tend to go to one extreme or the other. Right. Like, you either vilify money or you worship it. It kind of depends on, you know, what happened in your past and then how you are reacting to it. But Sarah, she, she, man, she had such a great article there. One of the other things she mentioned was to ask yourself if money affects your social life, specifically in a good way or a bad way. And then finally, this is a quote. If money were not a consideration, how would you be living your life? Would it be very different from how you currently live? And how do you feel about that? And that's just, I think that's such an incredible and incredibly insightful question to ask yourself because I think it's can help you to Be aware as to the fact that are you doing this truly because of money or maybe because of some other deeper maybe calling or mission that's driving you? We actually included some other similar questions in our how to Money Money mission statement worksheet. We'll make sure to link to that in our show notes. But the truth is, if you want to make more progress with your money, the problem likely isn't that you don't know enough about Roth IRAs, right? Like, for most of us, the problem is the man in the mirror, the woman in the mirror, like, it goes much deeper.

[Joel]

Don't make me feel that song right now.

[Matt]

And asking ourselves some of these hard questions, you know, doing some of this deep work, we think it can transform how it is that everyone out there relates to their finances. Just some of the realization can be freeing and it can impact how it is that we spend and save our money. And it's not just the spendaholics, right, that need to perform this exercise and to look inward. It's possible to be too miserly and too frugal as well.

[Joel]

Yeah, that's true. Yeah. No, when you said that if money were not a consideration, how would you be living your life? Would it be very different from how you currently live? I think that's a really, really important question for us to ask ourselves. For a lot of people, they might find, wait a second, I'm putting too much emphasis on money. I have all that I need. I. If only I could incorporate and think about money a little bit less and just have more free time or whatever. Like, those are the kind of questions you and I are asking ourselves now at this stage in our lives where.

[Matt]

Where we're a little more coast fire and we have the ability to kind of choose our own path to a certain extent.

[Joel]

And like, we could say, no, we want to continue to enhance our lifestyle in a massive way. And so it's going to require a lot more money to fund this juggernaut for years to come. But no, that's not what we care about. But only by asking yourself these kinds of questions can you get to that deeper understanding. But regardless of which of those camps you might find yourself in, at the end of the day, day, both of those tendencies can be taken to the extreme, which is really just a manifestation of selfishness. And this.

[Matt]

So basically, if you spend so much, it's because you're being selfish and you're spending a lot of money on yourself. But if you're being cheap and like, you know, like I was saying, earlier, like miserly. That's also a very selfish act where you're just. Yeah. Makes you think of storing it all away for yourself.

[Joel]

Breaking Bad, where Walter White always says he's doing it for his family, but the reality is his family is falling apart while he's like, making meth and making bad tank. And the truth is, at the end, he admits he's doing it all for him, for himself, the whole time, when it was clear to the viewer for all the seasons.

[Matt]

Sounds like he did some. Some good internal work throughout the episode. Exactly, exactly.

[Joel]

It was all that therapy he was doing that really got him to that point.

[Matt]

Yeah. Glad he reached that point. As someone who's never watched the show.

[Joel]

Right.

[Matt]

I'm sure that's exactly what it was like. Right.

[Joel]

Something like that.

[Matt]

A lot of counseling work.

[Joel]

Kind of like the Sopranos, where he actually goes to counseling.

[Matt]

Oh, does he really?

[Joel]

Yeah.

[Matt]

Yeah.

[Joel]

Although I never saw that show, but I hear it's great. But this is just this natural tendency. Right. Like, we're born as selfish beings. Our brains are wired toward what we can get. Now this is the lizard brain in action. And to keep it all for ourselves or for our small tribe, our family. But just because a behavior is natural doesn't mean that it's the best path to take.

[Matt]

That's right.

[Joel]

And especially in, again, modern society. And so one of the more ultimate ways that we're able to overcome our dumb brains is to spend our money in ways that are sacrificial. To spend or give it away in a way that doesn't bring us any benefit at all. This is 100% a way that we can overcome our idiot brains. And it's a reason that we like to encourage folks to be charitable, to give their money away, because pretty much at all stages of your financial journey, if you can be giving away a small portion and hopefully a growing portion of what you. What you have, what you make, it can help reframe money, put it in the proper light. And that is so powerful. It's powerful largely for psychological reasons. And to get to see that money do good in the world around you.

[Matt]

That's right.

[Joel]

That's beautiful, too.

[Matt]

Yeah. And of course, there are, like you said, in ways that. Where we receive no benefit, but we're also even incentivized to give money away. Like, that's just how the tax code works. Yeah. So it's important to realize that from a principal standpoint, we want you to be doing it because it's not necessarily going to give you any benefit, but there's also the tax benefits and there's, there's kind of like the emotional feel good benefits as well. But we're not going to get into all of that because something else that we can do to actually overcome our idiot brain is to automate and to impose limitations on ourselves. We're talking about rules and automation because they can help us to do the right thing consistently without even having to think about it. Because once you opt to put, let's say, 6% into your 401k, well, that joker is on autopilot. You don't have to think about it ever again. Your paycheck is small, but you forget about that pretty quickly. Automation helps us to overcome our own lack of discipline. And it's not to say that it's some sort of crutch. It's an effective tool and it's out there and so we want folks to use it. But you can also impose artificial limits on yourself where you're able to create some friction where it didn't exist before. Specifically on the shopping front, you know, that's something like instituting a 24 or a 48 hour waiting period. That way you're not giving into those base desires of impulse buying. Right. Or if that means that you're on Facebook too much, which can oftentimes lead to purchases that maybe you shouldn't have made. A loved one of mine recently made a purchase on Facebook that. I'm not sure if that would have happened had that ad not been seen. But if that's the case, use the News Feed Eradicate plugin. That way you can go straight to the How To Money Facebook group because surely that's the only reason that you need to be taking advantage of.

[Joel]

I gotta say, I've been using that plugin for years. I have no idea what's going on on Facebook outside of the how to Money Facebook group. And I live in bliss.

[Matt]

I love it. Or maybe it even means on your phone just deleting Instagram. If like me, you often sometimes find yourself, you know, flipping through the carousel of the different sales or a minimum backcountry.

[Joel]

Put it on page two of your apps.

[Matt]

Yes, yeah. Or yeah, push it back a little bit. But there are different app limiting services out there. There's this one called One Sec, like One Second and Opal. But they can impose a delay between opening an app and actually seeing the content. This is, I think, can be really helpful for both social and investing apps where you're trying to give yourself a minute to actually pause and to think, is this something I need to do? Honestly, I like to just stepping backwards. Like don't necessarily include more technology to solve the problem of more technology, but even consider taking a step backwards. I mean, I think this is why we're seeing the number of flip phones, like dumb phones. Sales of those have been skyrocketing, whereas sales of smartphones have actually declined. I think Q4 of last year, smartphone sales declined.

[Joel]

I like seeing that.

[Matt]

Whereas flip phones and like old school Nokias sales are actually on the rise. But yeah, that's. To me, that's an encouraging note. And I think that's something like. I feel like we're seeing more of that with, with Gen Z because there's a younger generation, they're tired of being hijacked, having their screen time just completely dominate all their free time.

[Joel]

Yeah, I've been very intrigued by the light phone. I haven't made the jump. I haven't even played around with one. But I've contemplated jumping to something like that. I don't want to lose. I like podcasts on my phone. There's certain things that I like having at my fingertips. But then I also realize that there are other things at my fingertips, fingertips that I wish were not there, that are constantly vying for my attention. And I wish I didn't even have to think about them. I wish they didn't exist. But Matt, to wrap this up, I mean, going back to that, that Carl Jung quote at the beginning of the episode that you mentioned about making the unconscious conscious our lives, I feel like they often feel guided by an invisible hand, which really is our subconscious. Right.

[Matt]

As well as the market, like Adam Smith said.

[Joel]

I know that's really a nod to Adam Smith using that terminology, but that invisible hand that guides.

[Matt]

I mean, it's more true than you think because it is the market. It is actual companies trying to make a profit that are trying to sell to you. But it's. Yeah, it's also the subconscious.

[Joel]

It's also the things we've experienced at an early age or things that we've heard our friends say or some sort of experience we had back in eighth grade that informs how we think about money and how we handle it now.

[Matt]

It's more true than we realize.

[Joel]

Yeah. And so I think when we unearth some of these thoughts and beliefs, we ask some of the deeper why questions, it's going to inevitably provide us with new information about ourselves, which is going to cause us to change some of our preconceived notions and beliefs about money. And then those altered beliefs are going to invariably impact how we act, how we move forward in this world, how we spend, how we save, how we invest. And the truth is, money is not good or evil. Right? It's a tool that can be used well or it can be used poorly. And we can either put too much stock in the value of a dollar or not enough. But it's hard, if not impossible, to change our habits and our approach to money when we're not sure where the source belief material is coming from, what's subconsciously guiding us, where. Where that originates. And so I think. I think it's important to do some of that deep work, not just to go, like you said, to some sort of technological halting mechanism to prevent us from taking the worst action possible.

[Matt]

10 apps to help you to overcome your lizard brain.

[Joel]

Right? Yeah. It's not that some of those apps can't be helpful, but I think there's deeper work required, really, when it comes to fighting and overcoming our idiot brains.

[Matt]

Absolutely, man. Yeah. Couldn't have said it better myself. Let's get back to the beer that you and I enjoyed. This was an end of Plagues, an IPA by burial. What? I'll say the. I'll describe the. The label art. It's a. The artist that they have that makes all their labels. I forget his name. I'll actually make sure to link to his Instagram account after we've bashed Instagram and how you should delete your phone. But all of his artwork is super metal. This is just the. The best way to describe it, but it's got a rat sitting there who's just, like, eating the earth.

[Joel]

That a rat? Or possibly is it possum?

[Matt]

I don't know either. Plagues are like rats. You know, like the bubonic.

[Joel]

Some sort of filthy animal.

[Matt]

Yeah, it's got the tail, but it's just. Yeah, there's, like, filth all around the earth.

[Joel]

Yeah. Their naming conventions gel up really well with the pictures, with the artwork, and they're both just a little over the top. Yep. Yeah.

[Matt]

Expect many more ridiculous names of the different burial beers that we'll have in the coming weeks.

[Joel]

Yeah.

[Matt]

But. Yeah. What were your thoughts, though, on this beer?

[Joel]

All right, I'm gonna say this was juicy and sharp, and it was almost like IPA concentrate. Like, that's how I think of this. But that's how I think of most of the Burial beers and burial IPAs in particular, because they just make some of the thickest, juiciest, beastly, most beastly.

[Matt]

IPAs out there, I would say. So this is a single, like a regular. And in my mind, the body, it was relatively light in body considering its burial. And so it felt like a foundational ipa because there's some other ones that we're going to have that are more over the top.

[Joel]

Dial it up like maybe this is a 9 and the other ones take it up to 12.

[Matt]

This is like their equivalent of a session IPA, just. But it was really good, solid. And again, when you poured it, it's kind of got that pale, milky golden color where you can't see through it at all. It's sort of like the new cars today with like your paint jobs, they've got zero metallic spec or fleck or whatever that's in them, you know, because like the old school traditional paint jobs, you see them and it's kind, kind of, it's got a sparkle to it.

[Joel]

Yeah.

[Matt]

But like the new ones, they don't have any sparkle. It's just like a flat color. It's shiny, but there's just no additional metallic in it. That's what this is like. Like it's just solid one note color. But the, the flavor was anything but one note. I'm glad you and I got to enjoy this one today.

[Joel]

Most definitely. All right, that's going to do it for this one. You can, as always, find show notes for this and links to everything we mentioned as well as a bunch of other money resources up on our [e-mail] don't forget the how to Money credit card tool. You can find that in the upper right hand corner of the [e-mail] it's super easy to find the best credit card for you. But Matt, that's going to do it for this episode. Until next time. Best friends out.

[Matt]

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[Matt]

Every case that is a cold case that has DNA right now in the backlog will be identified in our lifetime on the new podcast America's Crime Lab. Every case has a story to tell and the DNA holds the truth. He never thought he was going to get caught and I just looked at my computer screen, I was just like, ah, gotcha.

[Joel]

This technology's already solving so many cases.

[Matt]

Listen to America's Crime Lab on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts or wherever you get your podcasts. This is an iHeart podcast.