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- [00:00]
Podcast Host
This is an Iheart podcast.
- [00:04]
Joel
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- [01:11]
Joel
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- [01:26]
Matt
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- [01:44]
Joel
I'm Joel. I'm Matt, and today we're talking from pharmacist to full time real estate investor with Ryan Shaw.
- [02:09]
Matt
Yeah Joel. So newer listeners to how to Money may not realize how obsessed we were with investing in real estate back in the day.
- [02:16]
Joel
True.
- [02:16]
Matt
Actually, when we were batting around the initial ideas for a podcast, we thought it might be focused only on real estate. How to Real Estate doesn't quite have the same ring as how to Money. Luckily we zoomed out enough to cover personal finance more broadly. But it's not that we are not excited about rentals anymore. Although the current state of the economy maybe has changed our approach some which hopefully we'll have some time to get to. But we've just turned our efforts elsewhere. But. But our guest today, Ryan Cha, is most certainly all in on the real estate, which is why we are stoked to have him join us today. Ryan grew his net worth to $1.5 million at the age of 28. He was able to completely replace his pharmacist salary when he was 31 years old. And now, man, he's helping others to do the same as a real estate investing coach. So we're excited for him to share his story with listeners today and perhaps to whet listeners real estate investing appetite. So, Ryan, thank you so much for joining us today on how to money.
- [03:18]
Ryan Shaw
I appreciate it. Thanks for the invite, Matt and Joel.
- [03:20]
Joel
Glad to have you. Ryan. First question we ask everyone who comes on though is what do you like to splurge on? Because obviously you're doing the smart stuff. You're investing, growing your net worth, thinking about your future. But what are you splurging on in the here and now simultaneously? What's your craft beer equivalent?
- [03:34]
Ryan Shaw
Yeah, it's definitely food. I'm a big foodie. I would say we eat out at the Michelin star restaurants quite frequently, especially when we go to visit like foreign countries like Korea or Japan. We do try to book ahead for those Michelin three star restaurants because those get booked out like two months in advance. But we always have at least one cow. Yeah. One experience for sure.
- [04:00]
Matt
All right, so the fact that you said the three star restaurants first of all, that's like a slight flex.
- [04:06]
Joel
That's next level.
- [04:07]
Matt
But then like you're saying you're doing this frequently. How often would you say that you are showing up to any Michelin star restaurant?
- [04:14]
Ryan Shaw
I think one year we probably went to 10 or 12 Michelin star restaurants. It was a little bit.
- [04:20]
Joel
Okay.
- [04:21]
Matt
All right, man. This is like a hard. Yeah, this is like a line item on Ryan's budget. Holy crap.
- [04:26]
Joel
Well, we started before we started recording. Ryan, you talked to us about the meal delivery that you use called Cookunity. And at first glance you told me that basically all you have to do is heat the food and it's pretty good. That's kind of a splurge, but in another way it's not. It prevents you from eating out more than you otherwise would too, right?
- [04:46]
Ryan Shaw
Yep. Yeah, exactly. So I have, you know, date nights like once once a week or so and then the rest of the week I use Cook unity because it's a meal prep. Saves me a lot of Time, you know, driving to the restaurant, waiting 40 minutes for our food and driving back takes up a lot of my time. And I just, you know, don't necessarily have that time available to give. So I just, you know, enjoy using the meal prep cook unity.
- [05:12]
Matt
All right, well, maybe folks can start doing cookunity and Michelin star restaurants once they start investing in real estate, because evidently that's how you arrive there. Ryan, you didn't start out doing real estate. You were a pharmacist. And I think a lot of folks would consider that, like, that's a respectable job. You make a decent amount of money, you've arrived. I think a lot of pharmacists, once they are able to finish school and start doing that. Why did you start pursuing real estate investing when it seemed like things were set for you from a career standpoint?
- [05:44]
Ryan Shaw
Yeah, there's a couple reasons. The first is my grandpa invested in real estate back in the 50s in the San Francisco Bay Area, and we all saw the houses appreciated like crazy. Rents went up, and he was not only able to kind of retire early, but also able to help cover part of my college tuition and that of my brothers as well. So that's when I saw that real estate is the best way to create generational wealth, wealth. And so I wanted to get started as soon as possible. The other reason why is because when I was working in pharmacy, I would see these, you know, 50 or 60 year old pharmacists, and I asked them like, wow, you've been here for so many years, right? What did you like best about the job? And like, several of them told me the same thing. They're like, dude, I would have quit a lot sooner, like a decade earlier if I could, but I have bills to pay. And, you know, they had that kind of attitude. I was like, man, I don't want to be in my 50s and have that attitude for something that I did for 30 years. And I was like, man, I want to pursue something that I'm more passionate about, that I can create and build on my own. And that's what real estate allowed me to do, is to kind of build my own thing, to build my own empire. And so I stumbled upon a really good strategy, which is renting by the room, which actually increases, obviously, your rental income a lot more than traditional real estate investing. And I just kind of went off to the races. I bought one property a year, poured all of my pharmacist salary into it, and then I just continued on from there.
- [07:16]
Joel
All right, so I'm Curious too. You had the example of your grandpa to look to. Like, hey, he did well with real estate. Look what he was able to do. He was even able to pay for my college and college for my siblings, or at least part of it, which is really cool. What was your goal when you're starting and getting into real estate? Were you like, hey, I just want to be able to grow my net worth more quickly or I want to retire early? Like, what was maybe the why behind your real estate endeavors and why you ramped it up so quickly?
- [07:42]
Ryan Shaw
I would say financial freedom was ultimately the goal. At first it was a little bit hazy for me. I was just getting started. I didn't know how to do anything. I actually, my grandpa was in the Bay Area, so I couldn't rely on him for constant advice or anything like that. So I was pretty much on my own when I started out and I lost a lot of money. But I guess, you know, when the times got tough, I really looked to my grandpa for inspiration. I was like, well, if I stick with it, I could end up like my grandpa did, being able to pay for future generations and never have to worry about money. And so I was like, you know, I gotta keep at it. I lost over $30,000. But, you know, I mean, I could always make that back working at my pharmacy job and working overtime. And so I did. I worked a ton of overtime. I would work like 14 or 15 hour days, double shifts because I was working at the hospital. So I would get in at 7:30am and get out around 11:00pm wow. And so I did that for about two or three years to just build up as much capital as possible. And eventually I ended up creating kind of something that was self sustaining. So every rental that I purchased actually had cash flow. So I was able to reinvest that cash flow to buy the next one even faster.
- [09:01]
Matt
And.
- [09:01]
Ryan Shaw
And eventually with the appreciation and the cash flow, I was able to buy multiple properties a year. So Now I have 14 properties after doing this for about eight or nine years.
- [09:11]
Joel
So those three years, working overtime, working your butt off and saving up. So is that kind of your. Was that your ability to roll the snowball uphill more quickly so that once you got to the top and it was going downhill, like you had more momentum? Yeah, because a lot of people would say, I don't know, man, that sounds really difficult to work 14, 15 hour days the way you were doing to amass a big chunk of money so you could buy real estate. So on top of the work, you're having to do the part time side hustle of thinking through real estate and digging into the details and finding out which properties are worth making offers on and going to tour those homes. It's not like real estate's passive. Like you're just tossing that money into an S&P 500 index fund or something like that. That's a lot of work.
- [09:58]
Ryan Shaw
It was a lot of hard work at the beginning. I was, I was very young though. I was 23 at the time. And when I started my pharmacist job and I just wanted to get at it and I kind of had, I approached it with like do whatever it takes mentality, you know. So when things came up, I just pushed through it. And yes, it was tough, I would say for the first two or three years, especially because I was working all that overtime. But eventually, because I built up my reputation as a really good student housing provider. So I actually invest near college towns and doing this rent by the room model. But because I built up my reputation, I started getting a lot of referrals. So every student that came in, they had a couple friends that were also interested in staying at my place. So after about the second or third year, I didn't really have to do my own marketing anymore. I basically had students always refer others to me or they would stay for like one or two or three years. And so it kind of was self propelling. I didn't have to do any marketing. All I had to do was manage the property and if like an appliance broke down or a toilet's not working or something like this. But those problems maybe came out once every two months on average or three months on average. And I only had like maybe three or four properties at the time. So it actually wasn't as much work as I guess people would think. Just having a few properties now once I got to 14 properties now I have, you know, virtual assistants and all of this. But at the beginning it was just me before.
- [11:32]
Matt
And we're going to talk about that strategy because it's something we've touched on the show recently. But to be able to, for you, to really, to be able to unpack it is something that we want to do. But before getting to that, I kind of want to zoom out a little bit because you talked about how, I mean, you said that you were doing whatever it took, right? Like you're working a ton of overtime. Do you see your ability to get after it at a young age as responsible for your ability to have saved up the money to purchase these properties. And that leads me to, I guess, another train of thought which is, do you think that your higher education was sort of wasted time? Right. Like we talk about the declining value of college degrees on the show from time to time. Do you think that you would have been better served to become a real estate investor straight out of high school? Or perhaps that was the formative process that was necessary for you to be able to get after it like you did after graduating?
- [12:24]
Ryan Shaw
Yeah, that's a very common question. If I were to go back in time, would I do it the same? Yes, 100%. Actually. I really enjoyed my career as a pharmacist. I enjoyed helping others providing that service. And I think it really translated into providing services as a landlord to really know how to deal with customers and just that communication. And pharmacists, they, they kind of have a system going on. And I had a lot of fun kind of analyzing the system that the hospital had and applying that kind of to real estate, that system based thinking, having like a sop, standard operating procedure for everything that comes up in real estate. And, and so I created those sops for my business and I found that it made things a lot simpler. So definitely a lot of the stuff I learned in pharmacy, I actually did apply to real estate at some point. And having that capital starting out I think is very important because real estate is very capital intensive. But if you have the capital, you get better interest rates, you get better loan terms. Having that W2 job, I mean, and so I think it's one of the best ways to get started is to have that stable income so that, you know, you're, you're not worried if like, let's say there's a $3,000 repair or, or $5,000 repair. You have to make at least you have that income coming in to not worry about, you know, coming out. I mean, obviously it sucks to come out of pocket for that repair, but you know, you also have the income to kind of stabilize yourself until, you know, there's no real estate takes over.
- [14:03]
Joel
Another paycheck coming in two weeks as well. Right. So there's all that. That is from a conservative approach. You're not like, you know, throwing the dice on the craps table. Yeah, you have a methodical plan exactly in place. I'm curious too. So you said you invest in a college town. Let's talk about the way in which you invest in real estate. Because it is different. It's, it's unique in a lot of ways and it does have potential benefits. And potential downsides. So why was renting individual rooms to college students, in your mind superior to other routes you could have taken when it comes to getting into real estate investing?
- [14:40]
Ryan Shaw
Yeah. So when I got started, I invested near my alma mater, college to other pharmacy students. So these are people that I actually knew in school. And I was like, well, why not rent out to some friends or colleagues? And so the very first one I bought in 2016, I essentially rented to like healthcare professionals. So these were pharmacy students, there was a PT students, dental students. And so I found that this model makes a lot of sense if you rent out to professionals, renting out to people who are really studying hard to get that degree. So, you know, instead of throwing like wild house parties, they're really focused on passing their midterms and finals.
- [15:22]
Matt
And.
- [15:22]
Ryan Shaw
And even if you have one or two people who are really focused on their studies, they kind of create a culture of, hey, you can't have any house parties here. I'm really focused on trying to get my doctorate, right? So I found that that market turned out to be a really good market. I found that those turned out to be really high quality students, especially if you invest near colleges that are, you know, like Ivy League colleges, for example, they don't have to be Ivy League, but I usually target top colleges that have a lot of doctorate degrees, healthcare degrees, engineering, mba, law degrees. And then I also found, like I mentioned earlier, that students like to talk a lot. Right. So word kind of spreads like wildfire. If you turn out to be a really great landlord and provide really good housing for students, like, you'll get a ton of referrals just from that. And like I said on my, I would say around year three and it was kind of self propelling, I would get so many referrals that I didn't have to do my own marketing. And like 100% of the tenants that I got came from a referral at some point. So yeah, that's where I started out near my alma mater college. And it just kind of went from there.
- [16:32]
Joel
I just read a book about kind of some of the crazy parties and stuff that happen at schools like College of Charleston. So maybe don't invest near College of Charleston. I think you're picking, picking the right school and going after the right kinds of students, the right clientele. I guess to live in that house.
- [16:48]
Matt
Might make life a lot easier.
- [16:49]
Joel
Yes, yes.
- [16:50]
Ryan Shaw
Yeah, exactly, you said too.
- [16:52]
Matt
So, I mean, these are like, yeah, like doctorates, PhD students, at the very least, students who are getting their graduate degrees how long did it take for you to save up that initial down payment? Because it sounded like you graduated, you were a practicing pharmacist, and then you were saving up the cash in order to buy that first property. Is that right?
- [17:09]
Ryan Shaw
Yep, that's right. I had some money I put into stocks when I was younger, but essentially I just worked a lot of overtime that first year. I graduated in 2015, and then I put a down payment on my first house. I think it was October of 2016.
- [17:24]
Matt
Okay.
- [17:24]
Ryan Shaw
But back then it was a $262,000 house in Stockton, California. That's the first one that I bought.
- [17:31]
Joel
Okay, talk to us about maybe the overarching pros and cons of the specific investing approach you take. So you talk about trying to avoid the party house thing because that would certainly have an impact on the wear and tear. Right. Of the house. But also renting out by the room means you have individual leases with a bunch of different folks. What are the pros and cons? It sounds like this is potentially more profitable as well. Whereas if you're renting it out to a family or something like that versus renting it out by the room, you wouldn't be able to make as much. So talk to us about like the. Yeah, the pros and cons. There's.
- [18:09]
Ryan Shaw
Sure. The biggest pro, of course, is the increased amount of cash flow, which allows you to really scale your portfolio. So let's say I get the. Let's say it starts out as a three bedroom house. Usually I'll add two or three bedrooms to make it a five bedroom or six bedroom house. And if I rent it out to six students and rent out about $700 per month per student, that's six times 700 is $4,200 a month and rental income. And this is on a house that, you know, I bought for like 300,000 or 250,000 or something like this.
- [18:43]
Joel
Are you selling square footage or are you getting creative with the square footage as it exists?
- [18:47]
Ryan Shaw
I'm getting creative with the square footage as it exists. Exactly. Because I don't. When I'm adding. If I add square footage, that's obviously going to be a lot more expensive. I have to, you know, go through a more rigorous permitting process to add an addition to the house. But it's much easier just to repurpose existing space. So let's say there's a living room, family room, library room, office room, whatever. Most of that I will turn into bedrooms and then just keep.
- [19:14]
Matt
Brian, just use bedroom.
- [19:15]
Joel
Bedroom, bedroom.
- [19:17]
Ryan Shaw
Exactly. Yeah, I'll go to the house.
- [19:18]
Joel
Bedroom and bathroom, that's all we need. Maybe a kitchen.
- [19:20]
Ryan Shaw
Yeah, yeah, exactly. So what's cool about students is a lot of times they're studying, they're out of the house or hanging out with their friends maybe, so they don't need a whole lot of common space. Most of the times they actually hang out in the rooms, maybe watch Netflix or something like that. So I actually have houses that do have a lot of common space, but they don't even use that common space.
- [19:43]
Matt
Yeah, it's like wasted space for like, for everybody, basically. It's obviously wasted for you, but I guess I hadn't thought about that from the standpoint of just how our culture has changed. And in some ways, like, I almost see that as like a negative. Right. The fact that folks are spending less time together. But what you were saying is when it comes to students, I mean, some of these students, I guess, don't even really know each other. And so they're probably keeping in the spot. It's not that they're fighting or anything, but maybe they're not like best buds where they're wanting that common space. Truly all they're looking for is somebody to keep the kitchen clean.
- [20:11]
Ryan Shaw
Yeah, exactly. So they just, you know, enjoy their own private spaces. And it makes a lot of sense for them because they're only paying 600 or 700amonth maybe versus on campus housing is charging over 1,000amonth. And you have to live with a roommate and you have to pay for a meal plan and parking. And so what's good about the off campus housing is it's like half the price of on campus housing. So for a lot of people it makes sense, especially people who are trying to save money. A lot of times these students have their parents paying, and so the parent is not going to just stop paying rent all of a sudden and risk their child getting evicted from the place they're staying in college. And what's cool is again, like you guys were talking about, I rent mainly to graduate students because campus housing provides on campus housing for undergrads, but they don't provide enough housing for graduate students. In fact, a lot of them don't provide any housing for graduate students. Sometimes I call up the university and I ask them, oh, what type of grad housing do you have? And they'll say, like, we don't have any available because we have so many undergrads that they pushed out, you know, some of the grad students for the housing. So that's When I realized like, oh, you know, this is a really big market because there's like 3,000 grad students and they don't have anywhere else to stay but off campus. So those are some of the pros.
- [21:36]
Joel
Yeah. So tell me real quick, then the. You buy, you buy, let's say it's just a $300,000 house. It's a three bedroom, two bath. What would that have rented for? And then you turn it into a five bedroom, 600 bucks a pop, you're making three grand a month. What would it have rented for? And then what do you get?
- [21:52]
Ryan Shaw
Yeah, so the typical rent rates around like Stockton, California, it started out around 1,500amonth, I would say for a three bed, two bath. But it went up to around 2,000, 2,100 or so. But if I rent it out to six people at $700 a month, the rental income is more like 4,200amonth. My largest house I rent out for about 650 per bedroom in Cleveland, Ohio. And it's a 10 bedroom house that I bought for 367,000 and I rented out for $6,550 a month. And the mortgage payment was around 2,350 or 2,400amonth. So it was about 4,000amonth for. That's a keeper, you know, rental income minus mortgage. Yeah, yeah, yeah.
- [22:37]
Matt
Holy cow. Well, awesome. So you're getting at a couple things that we want to talk to you more about. You're talking about kind of different locations. We're going to get to that and more specifically too, I guess some of the other ways that you are figuring out whether or not these properties are going to work for you moving forward. We'll get to all that and more right after this.
- [22:59]
Joel
What does the future hold for business? Ask nine experts and you'll get 10 answers. Will we have another bull market in 2025 or we're going to get a bear market? What about inflation? Will it continue to calm or will higher prices remain sticky?
- [23:12]
Ryan Shaw
We're.
- [23:12]
Joel
Wouldn't it be cool if someone could invent a crystal ball that would give us some foresight?
- [23:16]
Matt
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- [24:03]
Joel
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- [24:26]
Matt
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- [24:43]
Joel
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- [25:18]
Matt
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- [25:37]
Joel
Navy Federal is excited to celebrate Military Appreciation Month as a special time to recognize our troops and the profound contributions they make. Learn more@navy federal.org Celebrate Navy Federal Credit Union At Navy Federal, the members are the mission Navy Federal is insured by NCUA all right, we're back from the break. Still talking about real estate investing with Ryan Shaw and how, hey, you can make more money as a real estate investor than you can as a pharmacist if you play your cards right and you work your butt off. So Ryan, I Love just kind of the way that you found a specific model of real estate investing and you replicated it in order to increase your revenue and decrease some of the downside too. I'm curious, how do you vet properties? Because every, every investor has different metrics they want to hit. What is it that you're looking for? What do you need to see in a listing to make you to pique your interest?
- [26:33]
Ryan Shaw
Yeah, I definitely have a very specific buy box. So for students, you have to think about, for any real estate, right, you have to think about who is your target client, who is your client avatar and what are they looking for. So for college students or grad students, they're typically looking for how close am I to the school? Because if they're waking up for their 8am classes, they want to be as close as possible. So I try to buy within a walking distance to campus if possible. Or if it's more of a commuter college where you have to drive to campus, then usually within a five minute driving distance. Now a lot of things I do for students include like providing transportation for them. So I might actually purchase an electric scooter, have them sign a liability waiver and stuff, but I might purchase electric scooter for them to use free of charge to get to campus. So that's the number one thing is location and proximity to campus. Number two is safety. So if you are a parent of one of these students and you're driving around from your house to the school, are you passing through any unsafe areas? Do you see a lot of homeless, a lot of maybe gang members or something like that? Because then the parent, if the parent feels unsafe having their kid there, obviously the kid's probably not going to live there. And obviously the kids don't want to be held up at gunpoint or anything like that. So buying in a safe neighborhood is super important and then affordability. So these students, they're looking for trying to save some money and you know, maybe they want more money for groceries and food and hanging out and so they will, you know, stay off campus to save money as well. So you do have to make sure your pricing is very reasonable for the area. And that requires doing like market research, talking to students, seeing what their budgets are typically around that area so that you're not overcharging. Because even if you're like $20 above their budget, they will just write you off. Like if their budget is $700 flat or less and your place is 720, they're going to go like, oh, that's above my budget. And they're not going to look, you know, look a second look at your place. So you really have to get the pricing right. And then the last thing is community. So students want to stay with other students or maybe healthcare professionals like medical interns, medical residents and medical fellows. So I market myself as exclusively for students and medical workers or healthcare professionals. And because I'm trying to keep a certain culture at the house and students may not be comfortable, let's say living with a family of five or something like that, it just feels a little bit uncomfortable for them. So yeah, I typically just target students.
- [29:21]
Joel
Are you paying for the utilities and. Or are you essentially taking the utility amount, subdividing it and sending everyone a bill at the end of the month? Because, you know, some people might be taking those long hot showers and other people might be. Might not be. Yeah. How do you, how do you do the utility thing?
- [29:36]
Ryan Shaw
Yeah, the fairest way to do that is, like you said, add them all up and subdivide them equally among the tenants. The only utility technically that I pay for is the landscaping, which is not really a utility, but yeah, everything else, the electric, gas, water, garbage, sewage, the students cover.
- [29:55]
Matt
Do you lean towards newer constructions versus older houses? Because I've heard you talk about some of the massive problems you had with the first house that you purchased. Problems that would sink most investors. Talk about that, I guess. Like I hear you talk about this 10 bedroom house in Ohio. I don't know, do they make houses that big these days? It sounds kind of like this old mansion.
- [30:17]
Joel
They do if you re commandeer all the other rooms.
- [30:19]
Ryan Shaw
Yeah, it's kind of like an old mansion.
- [30:21]
Matt
Used to be a library.
- [30:22]
Joel
Yeah.
- [30:23]
Matt
Now this is three bedrooms that I fit in here. Yeah, I guess. Talk about newer versus older properties.
- [30:28]
Ryan Shaw
Yeah, older properties definitely tend to have more problems with them. It could be the plumbing, the electricals. It could be like the roof or the H Vac. So typically what I do is I just do more due diligence before I purchase a property. Whereas most people might just get a typical home inspection. I might add on inspections. Like I'll have a H Vac technician go in there to see how old the H Vac is and if it's in proper order or if it's going to die in a couple years. I get a roofer. Sometimes I get a plumber and electrician to check out the plumbing and electricals and I'll get a sewage inspection as well. Especially for older houses. If it's built before the 1980s. Usually it's using cast iron piping, and cast iron can rust and have roots stick into them. So I've had to replace several sewage lines before, which can cost like $9,000 apiece, potentially. So I learned my lesson, and I. What I do is I do extra inspections during the due diligence phase so that I can tell the seller, hey, this is what it's estimated to cost to replace the sewage line that currently has a bunch of roots sticking into it. Can you cover that cost? Because, you know, I'm not going to buy the place if it's not in a decent enough condition. So a lot of that I negotiate. And I mean, I've gotten houses for like, one of them. I got for $83,000 under asking price. I've had up to 15,000 or 20,000 of seller credit before. And it's just all about doing your due diligence so that you can negotiate with the seller. And it's always okay to walk away from a deal. That's the first lesson I learned from my Realtor. That's the first thing he told me is like, don't feel like you have to be attached to a deal. You know, don't feel like you have to buy this deal. You can always walk away if the seller doesn't want to work with you. And having that mentality allowed me to basically be in a better negotiating position for a lot of these deals that I purchase. So, you know, I might have a give me $15,000 to replace the H vac, and I can just replace it right after I close on the property. And that way I have a brand new H Vac, I don't have to worry for the next 30 years. And, you know, same thing for roofing, electricals, plumbing. I will get credit put towards that if it's in bad shape.
- [32:51]
Joel
Yeah. The most important elements of the house. I'm curious if someone is listening and they're like, wow, what Ryan's doing. This makes so sense. Going directly for the single renting out by the room to graduate students, it sounds like the cash flow is pretty sweet. If you use this model, do you think that other people should follow your specific route to real estate investing success, or is it important for them to find their own niche? I'm curious what you think about that.
- [33:20]
Ryan Shaw
I think this strategy is one of the best out there, hands down. It's very hard to do traditional real estate investing where you buy a house and then you rent it out to a family and be able to make cash flow for this method, if you're making, you know, 700 times six bedrooms, $4,200 a month, it's kind of harder to, like, not make cash flow using it. Right. And that's why I think it's one of the best places for people to get started, because you really do need that cash flow at the beginning so that you can continue to reinvest. You don't have to come out of pocket for expenses. Let's say your roof needs to be replaced. Well, that's like $15,000 or like 12,000 to $15,000. And so if you're only making $100 a month in cash flow, basically the next 15 years of cash flow is going to be wiped out by one roof replacement, versus if you're making, let's say, 1,500amonth in cash flow by doing the student housing model, well, you're Gonna, after what, 10 months, you'll be able to replace a roof if you wanted to with the cash flow. And, you know, not every year the roof breaks down, obviously, so you're gonna be a lot more profitable. So I think for that reason, it's one of the best ways to get started. It's not as complicated as, like, doing Airbnb and having to provide all that service, having to text back and forth between all the tenants all the time. So I think it's like a lot less time investment to get started and a lot more return, both. That being said, everyone has their own, you know, passions. So if you like to flip and you feel drawn towards flipping, then, yes, find a mentor who's really good at flipping and, you know, get in touch with them and maybe have them teach you through one of your first flips. But everyone's a little bit different, and so obviously one size doesn't fit all.
- [35:19]
Matt
Yeah, that makes sense. I feel like what you're doing, it's somewhere in between Airbnb versus renting long term to a single family. Because it's not like you're. Every three days you're having to get a new tenant in there. It does take a whole lot more work to do that. But like you said, if you've got six tenants in a house, that's five more than I've got who I'm having to deal with. But at the same time, you've got more money coming in, so there's more work involved, but there's also certainly more. More cash flow, which is what you're talking about here. And you actually, you just shared the example of, like, a Roof replacement. Have you, have you had any issues with, especially I'm curious too, with you being out in California, the insurers and what it is that they're willing to take to take on. A lot of insurers showing up at properties and inspecting and saying, hey, you got to get this repaired. How have you factored that into your overall business model?
- [36:10]
Ryan Shaw
You know, I was kind of lucky. I purchased like five, technically six properties in California before State Farm decided to not insure any houses in California anymore. And so what's nice is California, I guess, or for State Farm, at least they kept their legacy clients. So I got locked in luckily to that home insurer. But yeah, it's definitely an issue if the houses and poor condition. So, for example, there's something called knob and tube electricals. And if the house has like knob and tube, there's a lot of insurers who don't want to insure that because of like, potential fire hazard with that type of electrical. So a lot of times, you know, you could negotiate with the seller to replace it or replace some of it or, you know, a good amount of it, or you can find an insurer who eventually does it. But you might have to pay more typically for, I would say, yearly insurance costs. It could range from $1,200 to $2,400 per year. But, yeah, I think nowadays it's a little bit harder to find somebody. But once you find a good insurer who will cover all that stuff, then you just use the same one for every one of your houses.
- [37:21]
Joel
Yeah. A little less competition in California, specifically on the home insurance market, sadly. I'm curious too, about tenants. You've talked about this. This seems to be a linchpin of your investing model, is catering to the right tenant, the tenant you want, who's going to take care of your property. You have something called the prime method. Right. And this is something also, by the way, that Matt and I have talked about many times, that it is the thing, sadly, that many landlords pay the least amount of attention to is the tenant that they pick. They don't go through all the property vetting requirements to find a person who is going to take care of the property and who is qualified to rent the property. So what's the prime method and why is that so important?
- [38:04]
Ryan Shaw
Oh, yeah, so the prime method is for basically a method I use to find really high quality tenants. So first I figure out, okay, who's my tenant avatar. Right. Who's my perfect tenant? And then I try to figure out okay, where does that tenant hang out? So P stands for placement of advertisements or you know, basically where you're placing your ads. So if I'm like marketing to college students, I will want to maybe post on. And you don't have to do this, but you know, you could post on campus bulletin boards. The most common method I use is getting onto these Facebook housing groups. There's a specifically a lot of off campus Facebook housing groups for student housing. So I will post there. I will go on like roomies.com. obviously there's like Craigslist, there's something called Uloop, which is university Loop. It basically is a site specifically for university housing. And so I will just get on to all these student affiliated sites and student housing sites so that I specifically can find students. R stands for reviewing social media. So like for Facebook housing groups, somebody contacts me through Facebook, I can quickly click into their profile and see are they like partying all the time, you know, drinking alcohol and drugs and stuff like that, or are they, you know, somebody who's more serious about their studies, Maybe they're pursuing a doctorate or something like that.
- [39:34]
Joel
So if you see keg stands, you stop that conversation immediately.
- [39:37]
Ryan Shaw
Yeah, exactly. So, yeah, I really pay attention to that stuff. And once you get one good quality tenant in there, typically they also have really high quality, you know, friend tenant friends that they could bring in. Like, let's say I bring in a pharmacy student and then they bring in their group of five pharmacy friends. You know, it just turns out to be a much better culture. I stands for identifying what type of tenant are they. So when you talk with them through email or phone, are they very needy or are they like asking for a lot of things or they kind of act a little bit entitled? You know, I, I try to avoid that type of tenant who's like, very needy. Let's see. M stands for measuring responsiveness. So the more responsive they are, like if they're getting their paperwork back to you really quickly, I find that they're, you know, those types of tenants are a lot more responsible as well. So kind of figure out, okay, are they responsive and getting everything back to me really quickly. And then E stands for insuring proof of income. So I always check the proof of income to make sure that they're able to pay the rent. Usually I want three times the rent coming in as income. So let's say they're paying 700amonth. I want to see at least $2,100 a month coming in from usually one of the parents or if the student has a financial aid or a stipend or. Or student loans, they have multiple ways to pay the rent. And usually I invest in universities or nearby universities where the student's paying like $20,000 or $40,000 in tuition. So to pay $7,000 in rent, you know, if they have the means to pay $40,000 in tuition a year, they have the means to usually pay $7,000 in rent a year.
- [41:24]
Matt
Very cool. So you talked about how originally you were purchasing in Stockton, California. Sounds like a pleasant, nice place to live. But then you also mentioned Ohio. Talk about the logistic challenges of investing in different parts of the country. Because, like, a lot of what you're able to capitalize on when you're purchasing properties in the same town or same neighborhood are the. It's the. The scale that you're. You're able to achieve and the ability to line up a. Oh, I've got this great plumber, by the way. Swing by this house as well. Do this.
- [41:56]
Ryan Shaw
Exactly.
- [41:56]
Matt
Or you pay for lawn care, exterior maintenance. I'm sure you've seen the advantage there. Talk about lining up contractors and some of the other logistical challenges when you are purchasing in separate cities and separate states.
- [42:10]
Ryan Shaw
Oh, yeah, definitely. So, you know, I say that I felt very lonely when I got started in real estate investing, and I felt like I was on my own. But the truth is, in real estate, you're never on your own because you always have a team or you start building up a team. And what I recommend is to kind of like, what I do is I have an Excel list of all the contractors that are, you know, I vetted, I found that they're trustworthy, and I have one for every profession. So I'll have like one or two actually for every profession because you want to have backups. So, for example, like plumbing, I'll have like two contractors for plumbing, or two plumbers, I'll have two. For electricians, I will have two roofers, I will have two people who are great at H Vac. I'll have, like, two people who are good at sewage line replacements and so on and so forth. And basically, once you create that list, if something happens to your property, like there's a backup, all you have to do is call plumber number one or plumber number two. They'll go over to the house. You know, you might give them the lockbox code. Maybe it's a temporary code to get in if you don't trust them. But usually, eventually, I end up trusting these plumbers and electricians and then they'll go in, basically.
- [43:24]
Matt
Then are you doing this across all the different cities and states that you are looking to invest in? It's just.
- [43:29]
Ryan Shaw
Yes, I do. So that's why it's so important to really scale up in one market at a time. So the first market for me, California, I scaled up to six properties that I sold my first one. And then I bought eight in Ohio, Eight student rentals in Ohio, eight. And then I scaled up there. I mean, sorry, Yeah, I bought one at first, obviously, and then I scaled to eight. So basically you want to be in a one or two or maybe three cities. But the reasoning is because every time you start in a new city, you got to build another team. Right. But once you build up that team, it becomes self sustaining because like as you said, you know that plumber, he can swing by all your houses and check for all the plumbing problems and fix them.
- [44:13]
Joel
So you talked about, hey, I started off as a pharmacist, I'm working extra, I'm building up the bankroll to have the down payment to buy these initial properties starting at one a year. So you started using your own money to build that rental portfolio. But now I think I've heard you say that you're using capital, you're raising capital to, to grow your real estate holdings faster. Yeah. What are the pros and cons of raising capital? How are you doing that and what's that look like?
- [44:40]
Ryan Shaw
Yeah, first off, it wasn't until like year seven or something where I was like, oh, you know, I have some family members who, they, they know what I'm doing because, you know, family members can be nosy and they're like, hey, can I get in on this? I'm like, maybe. So I've raised I think about 200,000 or something from family members. Not 100% necessary again. But you know, when I first started again, I bought like maybe seven before I actually got on my first investor. But I guess like once you start building a reputation, I guess people start noticing and then a lot of times they want to invest with you. And if you trust them, you can go ahead and make a deal with them. A lot of my deals though are structured as debt deals. I never really want to give out equity. I prefer to do depth because there's a lot more legal ramifications if you offer equity in your property to investors. In fact, there's like the SEC that gets involved. You have to do something called like a ppm, Private memorandum. Private something memorandum. And so it just, it's a lot more complicated. And like a PPM, it costs like, like 5,007 or. No, actually I think it's like 10,000 to 15,000. Sorry. To do so. Yeah, usually it's better to do depth. And so what I do is I'll borrow, let's say $50,000 from a family member and it's a minimum of 50,000 and it's a 12% return. So basically they send the 50,000 and then they get $500 a month from, from a debt payment and it's just interest, not equity again. So. And then I'll do like a five year loan term or something like that. And at the end of the five years, like a year before, like in year four or something like that, I'll ask them, hey, do you want to extend that loan or do you want your $50,000 back? And so, you know, I need some time ahead of time to, let's say I save up a couple months worth of cash flow to pay them back if they want to move, you know, get out of the deal. But a lot of times, you know, once somebody's seeing that return for like five years, they're like, oh, might as well keep it in there unless I'm really desperate, you know.
- [46:55]
Matt
So we don't often advise folks to take money from family members. It feels like it can be something that could lead to hurt relationships, issues, maybe at Thanksgiving. What are you outlining when you enter into some of these agreements with your family members? Like, sounds like you are outlining some very clear terms. Sounds like you've got good communication. What are some other highlights or specific points that you're making sure to include?
- [47:22]
Ryan Shaw
Yeah, you definitely need a written agreement. Some people are like, oh, it's family, you know, maybe you just do it verbal. Absolutely not. You definitely have to have a contract written. It should be written by an attorney and the attorney will be able to kind of give everyone, tell everyone what it's going to look like and what are some things to look out for. Like let's say, I don't know, maybe the investor passes away. What happens to that loan? Right. What happens if the operators pass away? Right. So those are all some things you really have to think through when you do the loan. But typically if you do more of like a loan versus you're investing in equity, it's just a lot simpler because it's just like you get a 12% rate for five years, you're not allowed to take out that 50,000 before the five years ends. And you know those are the biggest two terms that you need to know. And so it's pretty easy to explain to people. And you do have to be very clear up front that this is what it's going to look like. Like, you can't just, you know, emergency take out that 50,000. If you want your $50,000 back, basically you would have to find a replacement on the loan. So somebody else to put in 50,000 in order for you to take out your 50,000.
- [48:38]
Joel
Yeah, it's, it's not a very liquid investment. They have to know that up front.
- [48:42]
Ryan Shaw
Yes, exactly. That's the most important thing I would say. But, yeah, I mean, I don't really see, I mean, other than those things you have to think about, you know, I, I enjoy doing business with family because the way I see it is like we're also building their wealth too, because they are making a very good return, better than the stock market. And so it's like we're building not just our wealth, but the family wealth. And I was like, you know, once I kind of reframed it that way, I felt like more comfortable with it. Obviously, never do business with somebody you don't like 100% trust. But I grew up with these fam. I'm very close with my family and I grew up with them and everything. So I feel, you know, comfortable taking on an investment from family.
- [49:28]
Joel
Yeah, very cool. All right, we've got a few more questions to get to with you, Ryan, including how, how does what's happening in the macro economic. The overall real estate market and the, the shifts there. How does that change how you think about investing? We'll get to that and more right after this. What does the future hold for business? Ask nine experts and you'll get 10 answers. Will we have another bull market in 2025 or we're going to get a bear market? What about inflation? Will it continue to calm or will higher prices remain sticky? Wouldn't it be cool if someone could invent a crystal ball that would give us some foresight?
- [50:06]
Matt
Well, until then, Joel. Over 41,000 businesses have future proofed their business with NetSuite by Oracle. The number one Cloud ERP. Bringing accounting, financial management, inventory, HR into one fluid platform with one unified business management suite. There's one source of truth giving you the visibility and control you need to make quick decisions. With real time insights and forecasting, you're peering into the future with actionable data. When you're closing the books out in days, not weeks, you are spending less time looking backwards and more time on what is next? Our business is really small, but if we needed netsuite, we would be pumped about the time, the cost savings that it provides. Whether your company is earning millions or even hundreds of millions of dollars, NetSuite helps you to respond to immediate challenges and seize your biggest opportunities.
- [50:52]
Joel
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- [51:24]
Matt
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- [51:42]
Joel
Navy Federal is excited to celebrate Military Appreciation Month as a special time to recognize our troops and the profound contributions they make. Learn more@navyfederal.org Celebrate Navy Federal Credit Union At Navy Federal, the members are the mission. Navy Federal is insured by NCUA hey there Joel. Here with my buddy Matt from How To Money. Matt Summers right around the corner. I know you got that travel bug. What adventures do you have planned?
- [52:08]
Matt
Oh man, going to love this. We're planning this epic road trip up the east coast with the entire family. Just think lighthouses in Maine, monuments in D.C. plus everything in between.
- [52:18]
Joel
That's amazing. I'm jealous, but thinking about stowing away in your luggage. But wait a second. How are all six of you going to take this road trip?
- [52:25]
Matt
Okay, so initially we were thinking about taking an rv, but I found some really awesome airb's along our route. Places with something for everyone. And what I really love is that with Airbnbs we can always start our days with like a a good breakfast at home. Like it's our home away from home. And I love that routine. I don't know if you've ever tried getting a family of six out the door, let alone trying to find some breakfast in a middle of a city that you're not super familiar with. It's a challenge. Plus it's a budget killer.
- [52:50]
Joel
Yeah, that's true. Sounds like chaos. To be honest and you know, that's actually what makes hosting on Airbnb so special, right? You're giving travelers a chance to really live like a local. They even have the co host feature, which gives you access to a network of high quality local co hosts who can help take care of your home and your guests when you're not there. Find a co host@airbnb.com host.
- [53:14]
Matt
We are back from the break talking about investing in real estate with Ryan Cha, specifically student housing. I think it's a, this is a strategy we haven't really talked too much about here on the show. But Ryan, are you planning to continue to expand your overall portfolio, your, your personal empire?
- [53:31]
Ryan Shaw
Sure.
- [53:31]
Matt
Because I mean now, like, you're financially independent now. You talked about how you were wanting that financial freedom. Like that's how it is that you got into it. Have your ambitions grown? Are you wanting more Michelin star meals? Like not just once a month? Maybe he's like every night. How about like once a week, baby?
- [53:48]
Ryan Shaw
I think I would get really fat if I did once a week. Those meals are like 3,000 calories. But yeah, I mean, for me, I always want to grow. I don't see why not, right? I always, I like the challenge, for one thing, and I don't feel comfortable just sitting on a beach sipping margaritas, you know. So I would say I'm always definitely wanting to grow. And a portion of the cash flow that I'm making I will obviously use to cover all my expenses. But everything else, if I'm not using it or bookmarking it for vacation or, you know, a Michelin star restaurant, then I will reinvest it. Because why not, right? And so I still stick to buying at least one property a year and I hope to eventually someday get to like 100 properties. We'll see. You just have to have a really good team with that. And so one of my biggest focuses right now with the scaling is just training my team. I meet with them every week and you don't necessarily have to do that, but I have a full time VA. I have a 20 hour a week VA as well. And I have a bookkeeper. So, you know, just investing in them so that I can continue to scale has been my focus.
- [55:00]
Joel
How, how do you like the, the macroeconomic realities that are happening, whether it comes to supply in the housing market, prices, interest rates, how does that impact the offers you're making and your likelihood too? Because, because also if you were like, I'm going to get, I'm going to buy a house. Every year, no matter what. Well, what if it's a year where deals are harder to find and I don't know, maybe you say, maybe I'll hold off for now and do two next year. I don't know how are about growth when it's become harder to find great deals.
- [55:30]
Ryan Shaw
Yeah. So first off, the first rule I learned in real estate is never try to time the market. Like, I know there are definitely bad times in real estate, right? But like 2008, obviously. But what you want to do is actually double down when nobody else is buying. Because in many ways, because a lot of buyers are scared away, they're like, oh, interest rates are so high, I don't feel like I really want to buy a house. And so the sellers who are trying to get rid of the house, they have nobody to sell to. So you have a lot more negotiating power and you could get a very significant discount on a property. And then let's say interest rates are high now, but in like two or three years, maybe five years, whatever, interest rates will eventually drop because they always do it cyclical with the debt cycle that occurs. And eventually that 7% interest rate will be like 5% maybe. And you can then refinance all of your properties and save. Not only you get a discount on the property, but you also get that ability to refinance. So you kind of get the best of both worlds if you buy now, for instance. But what I would say is if you look back in time and you look at where prices were back then, almost always you're like, oh, yeah, you got it for a really good deal. It was so cheap. But, you know, back then in the moment, it felt like that house was very expensive because of where wages were, etc. So with inflation, basically what happens is the debt in real estate gets. The inflation erodes away at the depth it gets. It makes the debt cheaper and cheaper every single year. So by that logic, basically they say the best time to buy is now. Or technically the best time to buy was 10 years ago. Sorry. But the second best time is now. And that's always going to be true in real estate because real estate prices always appreciate over time. And with how inflation works, it basically just erodes away at that debt and creates more cash flow for you.
- [57:35]
Joel
Yeah, I think that's part of the. Those are two strong appeals for real estate investing is, hey, the inflation is actually going to make your debt look less bad over the years. And the price appreciation is kind of happens like clockwork, with the random exception of the Great recession, things like 2008. Ryan, thank you so much for joining us today on the podcast. Where can our listeners find out more about you and your investing advice?
- [58:02]
Ryan Shaw
Yeah, so I do provide coaching for getting started in this method because it led to financial freedom for me. And I'm just so passionate about like helping others with doing this because it's been so powerful for me. And so if you want to reach out, you can go to www.newberealestateinvesting.com guide and you just sign up your email there and it'll give you a free PDF on how to get started and student housing, how to get started in real estate in general, and a lot of the tips and mistakes that I made so that you can learn from them. You also get on my newsletter list where I also provide like random real estate tips and help or getting started.
- [58:46]
Joel
Very cool. Ryan, we appreciate you, man. Thanks for joining us today.
- [58:49]
Ryan Shaw
Thanks again.
- [58:50]
Matt
Well, all right, Joel, Nice little enlightening conversation with our guest today, Ryan Cha, talking about student housing specifically.
- [58:59]
Joel
I love how real estate investing doesn't have to be a one size fits all thing and Ryan chose that. Hey, I found my niche inside of this thing called real estate investing and he's doing well with it.
- [59:12]
Matt
Yeah. So what's your big takeaway?
- [59:14]
Joel
So my big takeaway was when he was talking about all of the inspections he does before he buys a home.
- [59:20]
Matt
Pretty dang thorough.
- [59:21]
Joel
Very thorough.
- [59:22]
Matt
Yeah.
- [59:23]
Joel
And doing your due diligence before making an investment is crucial. And the same when we were talking about high standards for, for tenants, both of those things combined made me think, oh, Ryan's not just seeing the dollar signs. And then like, yeah. And going forward, he said, now I see the dollar signs, but I want to make sure that I'm taking an approach that ensures that those dollars are actually going to come into my pocket and then I'm not going to be spending them needlessly on improvements to the house because I didn't think ahead. So I love. Yeah, with just, just the forethought he's bringing into the investments that he's making, the thoroughness.
- [59:59]
Matt
And it's not wasting money either because it sounds like in a lot of cases, if there's some bad news that comes up, he's able just to take that and negotiate that price now, which it's like a no brainer if you are looking at buying something to have some of these specialized inspections done. Really smart. But my big takeaway is going to be just this approach, broadly speaking. Like though, as he was talking through some of these houses and how he's like, oh, no, no, it was a three bedroom. Now it's a six bedroom. And how he's just used some of these other bed. They're not bedrooms, but they are now. And it made me think through, oh, what properties do I have near universities? Is there a way to convert this more into student housing? It seems like such a low piece of hanging fruit, Joel. And, like, obviously, why would you at least not consider that if that's something that. If real estate A, is something you're interested in, but B, if that's something you already have, I think there's a way to even shift your strategy when it comes to a certain property. So I think this could be just a good takeaway. Not for new real estate investors, but also for folks out there like us, who already have properties.
- [60:57]
Joel
Yeah.
- [60:57]
Matt
To think about converting them, and really.
- [60:59]
Joel
What he's talking about there is forced appreciation because what everybody else sees, what the MLS sees, and anybody who looks and doesn't dig a level deeper, they see a three, two. And this would get me roughly this amount. And he says, no, no, no. With some drywall and in a couple days worth of work, I can throw a couple of extra bedrooms in here.
- [61:18]
Matt
I framed a wall before. Right. Something even I could do.
- [61:20]
Joel
Yeah.
- [61:20]
Matt
Maybe don't skimp on the rockwool. So the sound insulation, acoustic properties that.
- [61:26]
Joel
It has, it's amazing what somebody else sees. He sees something a little bit extra. He's like, how big are those common rooms? And how could I kind of siphon off another bedroom or two from this? And sounds like it's working out well for him.
- [61:37]
Matt
Yeah. And so I wanted to mention that because. So last week when we talked with Nick, and that was essentially one of his quote unquote hacks, was the fact that he got a property where he was living in the basement.
- [61:46]
Joel
Right.
- [61:47]
Matt
But it seemed like that, in my mind, didn't seem quite as replicable because it's kind of like, oh, here's a diamond in the rough. They just had this thing categorized incorrectly. He just happened to be the one that found it. This is a way that you're able to essentially do that, possibly on repeat, as long as you have the kind of tenants who are looking to move into a house like that, specifically around a university, for sure. So I like that.
- [62:07]
Joel
All right. What was your take on the beer we had? This one's called Hell or High Twilight. You're used to probably the Heller High watermelon.
- [62:13]
Matt
I know. Yeah.
- [62:14]
Joel
21St Amendment Brewery. But I found this. This is just a citrus wheat ale from a classic old brewery. What were your thoughts?
- [62:20]
Matt
Very citrusy. It's like so good. I would say it drank really clean. It wasn't like overly complex, it wasn't overly nuanced, but it had a nice, like citrus flavor going on. It's a citrus citrusy wheat.
- [62:32]
Joel
I would say high, specifically in orange. Citrus.
- [62:35]
Matt
Oh, yeah.
- [62:36]
Joel
And light, refreshing.
- [62:37]
Matt
Almost had like a little squirt of orange juice in there.
- [62:39]
Joel
Yeah, yeah, exactly. So, yeah, nothing, nothing overly insane about this craft beer. But also with the warm weather firmly in hand now, it's kind of nice to have a light, refreshing citrus wheat beer. I think it's suitable for these summer months.
- [62:54]
Matt
What are so like a more macro, widely available version of this would be like shock top or. Yeah, probably those. I would say that if you're into, oh, this is.
- [63:04]
Joel
This beer has been around a long time or this brewery. So I would imagine a lot of people can find this anything. Something by 21st amendment.
- [63:10]
Matt
Yeah, that's what I was going to say. Just I would point people in this direction as opposed to some of those more like even more widely available, inferior versions of this particular beer.
- [63:20]
Joel
I really.
- [63:20]
Matt
Yeah, I really dug this.
- [63:21]
Joel
Me too. All right, that's gonna do it for this episode, Matt. We will of course link to some of the resources Ryan mentioned up on our website@howtomoney.com you know it. Don't forget to sign up for the how to Money newsletter while you're there. That's gonna do it though, Matt. Until next time, best friends out.
- [63:51]
Podcast Host
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Matt
Don't always leave your team to do.
- [65:10]
Ryan Shaw
The work that's been the most important.
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Matt
Part of how to lead by example.
- [65:16]
Podcast Host
Listen to Leading by Example executives making an impact on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts or wherever you get your podcasts.
- [65:25]
Matt
What happens when we come face to face with death?
- [65:28]
Joel
My truck was blown up by a.
- [65:29]
Matt
20 pound anti tank mine. My parachute did not deploy. I was kidnapped by a drug cartel. When we step beyond the edge of what we know clinically died.
- [65:39]
Ryan Shaw
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- [65:43]
Matt
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- [65:54]
Podcast Host
This is an iHeart podcast.