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How to Money
Solutions for Money Anxiety with Financial Therapist Lindsay Bryan-Podvin (Bestie Ep) #1001
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- [00:00]
Lindsay Bryan Podvin
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- [00:04]
Joel
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Joel
Welcome to how to Money. I'm Joel. I'm Matt and today we're talking Solutions from Money Anxiety with Financial therapist and Lindsey Bryan Podvin.
- [02:48]
Matt
Yeah, so there's more to money than just figuring out the financial nuts and bolts, right? Money has an emotional and a psychological component to it as well, which is at the core of what our guest today focuses on. We're happy to be joined by Lindsay Brian Podvin, who happens to be the first financial therapist in the state of Michigan. She is a social worker turned financial therapist, and she's also the author of the book the Financial anxiety Solution, which is a workbook to help folks to stop stressing about money by applying therapy techniques to your relationship with money. So we're excited to talk about the thoughts and the feelings behind money and how you can improve your financial wellbeing today. Lindsay, thank you so much for joining us on the podcast.
- [03:33]
Lindsay Bryan Podvin
I am so, so happy to be here.
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Joel
Lindsay, we're glad to have you. And, yeah, this is going to be a really fun, interesting conversation because Matt and I, we touch on this stuff sometimes on the show, but we're no expert. You are. So we want to pick your brain. But the first question we ask everyone who comes on the show is, what do you like to splurge on? Matt and I, we splurge on craft beer. And so we want to know, while you're saving, investing, what's your craft beer equivalent?
- [03:57]
Lindsay Bryan Podvin
My splurges vary, so my partner and I do fun money at the beginning of every month, so I usually save up a little bit, and then we'll go get a facial or a massage every other month, but it isn't always a spa day. This month, I spent my fun money and a little bit of last month's fun money because I saved up to buy a nice, shiny new nose ring that you had the opportunity to see before we hit record.
- [04:21]
Matt
I'm sorry, I did not compliment the new nose ring.
- [04:25]
Lindsay Bryan Podvin
It's some nice new bling, so I'm really excited about it.
- [04:29]
Joel
I like that you rotate it too and that you put it in your budget, but then you're like, yeah, I can do whatever I want with it. The world is kind of your oyster.
- [04:36]
Lindsay Bryan Podvin
Exactly. Yes, exactly. And that's how I kind of scratch that itch to be a little bit spontaneous without blowing the spending plan.
- [04:44]
Matt
Yeah. Make room for that item or experience or service, whatever that might be. But, yeah, I really like the fact that you're keeping things fresh. Um, but, Lindsay, let's talk about financial therapy, because it, like, honestly, it feels like there's a massive need for money and for therapy to intersect. It seems like so many folks have a. Just a horrendous history with money that affects them, you know, to this day. But this is still an incredibly tiny field. What is it that caused you to get into this space?
- [05:11]
Lindsay Bryan Podvin
What caused me to get into this space was my own lived experience, which I think happens with a lot of people who go into therapy. So I originally went into therapy because. Because I have a personal and a strong family history of mental illness. And so I knew I wanted to do something in this space of depression and anxiety work. And as I got into that work, I got my first paycheck post grad school, and I was making less than I was making as a waitress. And the amount of financial shame and guilt and embarrassment that I experienced was really, really impactful. I come from financial privilege, and I graduated without student loans. And even without student lo, it wasn't like I was sitting on just a pile of cash. And so when you're living paycheck to paycheck, it became really tight. I don't have to explain to you or your listeners how hard it can be, but what I found really interesting. Interesting is probably not the right word at the time, but interesting in retrospect was how when I was so stressed financially, how negatively it impacted my mental health. I have a history of depression and anxiety that was really, really well managed up until that point. And my symptoms really came roaring back when I was earning so little money. And I did what I could. I read all the personal finance books, and basically they were all telling me, you know, it's your fault. You just gotta buck up and work harder and save more. And I just felt like there had to be something more to it. This was also pre Uber and doordash days, so I couldn't just, like, go out at night and side hustle. And because my mental health wasn't great, I couldn't actually pick up waitressing on the weekends because a part of my symptoms of depression and anxiety was that I developed insomnia. So when you're not sleeping, your mental health isn't great. And then also for me, it really showed up as physically. Like, when you're not sleeping, your immune system takes a huge nose dive, right?
- [07:05]
Matt
Absolutely.
- [07:07]
Lindsay Bryan Podvin
So it was just this spiral of one thing on top of another, on top of another. And I stayed at that job for a good amount of time. And when I negotiated a raise, as I was taught to do in all those books that I read, I was told, you know, Lindsay, we. We can't give you a raise. And in fact, you should be grateful that you have a job. And, you know, I don't say it to be like, oh, poor me. I think this is a lived experience for many people, particularly for those who go into helping or healing professions. So nurses, social Workers, teachers. But I realized like I couldn't stay there. Even though I loved the work that I was doing, I really had to practice financial self care and mental health care. And so when I went to find a better paying job and within probably a month my symptoms started to quiet down, I started to be able to sleep again. The treatment that I was under before started to work again. And it was this light bulb moment of as a social worker when I was sitting across from a client who was struggling with depression or anxiety. If they told me they were struggling with money, my job was to tell them, hey, here's an 800 number you can call and they will make sure that your heat doesn't turn off. Right. I live in Michigan, so that's kind of important this time of year, right? Exactly. But they were, they were short term solutions. And it also felt like I was just telling them what to do. Whereas in other mental health care treatment you're really making sure that they're on board and that they're a part of the process and that the things that we're going to do are going to work for them. So it just felt like this, this missed connection, if you will, in that I was helping people with depression and anxiety, they had money stressors. I didn't want to become a financial planner. I didn't want to go in the advising route. I wanted to stay in my lane of mental health care. But I wanted to be more well rounded and more balanced when helping my clients with their money concerns and having my lived of seeing how much more beneficial my own mental health care regimen was when I actually had enough funds coming in to practice self care in the way that I needed to. So I found the Financial Therapy association and the center for Financial Social Work. Got certificates in both of those programs. And fast forward, here we are today and this is what I do full time practice financial therapy.
- [09:18]
Joel
I love it. And you mentioned before we started that there's what something only like 40 financial therapists maybe across the nation. So this is not some sort of vibrant, booming industry like you are kind of a trailblazer really in this regard. And I'm curious. A lot of difficult topics get broached in a traditional therapy session there. There are a lot of things that get brought up. But why is money such a neglected topic so much of the time in traditional therapy? Even though we know that money causes and poor money usage and not having enough money causes so many problems really that we face, it seems like we, you know, the more we ignore it, the Worse our collective money issues become.
- [10:00]
Lindsay Bryan Podvin
Yeah, it's a really good question. I think it's a tricky question to answer because so many of us have so little access to financial literacy, but also the holistic view of financial well being. When I was in grad school, I didn't get any training on money. And across the nation right now there are only a handful of grad school schools who incorporate finances into their training for mental health care providers. So I think there's just a huge gap in the training. I, I don't know why exactly we don't address it. I. It blows my mind because as you said, there are really difficult things that we talk about in therapy. And to me, every single person we sit across from, either virtually or physically, is going to have a relationship with money. So it just feels like a huge, huge mission. And that said, I'm not all Debbie Downer. I do think a lot of schools are making some progress in incorporating financial wellness, financial literacy training and financial psychology into their programs. And my hope is that, you know, in another few years, I will no longer be just on the, on the front end of things. I hope that there will be more colleagues around that I can refer to. You know, there's a huge need for people to have this type of care.
- [11:16]
Matt
Sure, yeah. So, I mean, you're talking about your training. Let's talk about what exactly you do as a financial therapist. Are you looking at budgets and spreadsheets? You know, like, are you talking about retirement account contribution limits? Or are you mostly, you know, sticking to the thoughts and the feelings side of things as you're, you're talking with your clients?
- [11:33]
Lindsay Bryan Podvin
Yeah, I mostly hang out in the thoughts and feelings space. But in order to get certified in financial therapy and in financial social work, we did have to do some of the basic building blocks of finance, financial education. And what I usually think about is if it kind of stays in the realm of education versus advising, I'm comfy being there. But the second we get into which is better, this or that, that's really outside my realm. I'm obviously never touching anything with stock advising investment advice. I really stay in the place of what's getting in the way of doing the things that you want to do. What are some things that we collectively can work together toward moving the needle towards the things that matter to you. And I'm also really comfortable saying, hey, that, that's outside of my scope. That's definitely a cfp. Or hit up your works HR rep and see if somebody else can talk to you. There about different retirement elections. So I'm also pretty comfortable in my wheelhouse and referring when things are outside of my wheelhouse.
- [12:34]
Joel
Gotcha. Yeah. And so when you're kind of starting out with a new client, my guess is a lot of issues that people have today with money in adulthood stem from things that happen in childhood. I don't know, I mean, looking at my own career trajectory. So you talked about your lived experience and how it kind of pushed you in this direction. My lived experience of my parents not handling money terribly well pushed me in a direction at a really impressionable age. And look what I do now for a living. So I don't know, how often are you going back to kind of things that happened in childhood to really kind of decipher how that's impacting what's happening today?
- [13:10]
Lindsay Bryan Podvin
Such a good question. And I'm always going back to childhood. We know that you both have kids, so you know, when your kiddos are young, their little brains are sponges and they are soaking up everything around them. And we were little at one point too. And what research shows us is that by the time we're about seven or eight years old, we more or less have decided what we think about money. And so when you go back to what was going on in those early elementary years or those early childhood years, it makes perfect sense why so many of us, when we hit 18, 21, 25, or whatever, our version of becoming financial adults is why we make so many choices that might not make perfect sense. Because if you think about your inner seven or eight year old self driving those financial decisions, it helps to provide some context and some meaning to why we do what we do. And for those listening who are like, well, my parents or caregivers never talked about money, that is just as impactful as having grown up in a household where you heard your parents or caregivers arguing about money all the time. Right? We soak things up, even if they aren't explicitly said. We soak things up by the way that things feel when we're in the checkout line at a grocery store or when holiday cards arrive in the mail. Right? We soak up the emotion in the room. And so when I'm working with my clients, we often go back to that. And then we're also thinking about the first meaning the first time you got a paycheck, the first time you got a job, the first time you got a credit card. Because those firsts also tend to leave a little bit of a bigger, stickier impression. And so we Also want to think through what did it feel like the first time you got a paycheck and when you saw how much went out for taxes and when you saw how much went to Social Security and then when you went to, you know, go pay your first cell phone bill. Right. All of those different things impact why we do what we do now.
- [15:01]
Matt
Makes a ton of sense. And Lindsey, I mentioned the book that you wrote on financial anxiety. How can someone know if they are experiencing financial anxiety? Because we all deal with sort of like the day to day stresses of oh, I wish I had some more money to do the things I want to do. But how does someone know if they're dealing with actual financial stress as opposed to, you know, maybe just a small lesson for them to learn that, oh, maybe they need to go in a different direction with their career or oh, maybe I need to cut back a little bit on my expenses. I feel like there's a, it's kind of a fine line between the two.
- [15:32]
Lindsay Bryan Podvin
Yeah, you're exactly right in that we all experience anxiety and we all experience financial anxiety. It's a, it's a healthy response to any sort of stressor. And so when I'm talking about financial anxiety, I'm talking about literally the physical sensations that mimic what traditional anxiety feels like because it's going to feel the exact same in your body. So sweaty palms, tight throat, racing heart knots in your stomach, all of those things that can kind of come along with anxiety. And then we think, when we think about the thoughts that come up with financial anxiety, it's being worried, nervous or on edge, often ruminating on thoughts for longer than the amount of time that the stressor exists or kind of questioning yourself or having money on your mind all the time. And then those behaviors sometimes being really impulsive, like, oh, I just, I'm going to pay all my bills right now without sitting down and looking through everything and then realizing that you front loaded and paid a bunch of bills, but you didn't consider that your rent was due and now you're short on your rent. So to back up, financial anxiety is a normal short term response to a financial stressor. Where it becomes problematic is if that financial anxiety is impacting your ability to manage your money or engage with others around finances. So for example, if I wanted to make sure that my paycheck actually went through, I might refresh my banking app on the day that I'm supposed to get that paycheck and I might be a little bit anxious while it's refreshing. And then when I see that that money hit my account, I go, whoo. Okay, cool. My boss paid bills or paid my paycheck, we're all set. But if throughout the day, I'm continually checking in on that bank account just to make sure that what I saw was really there, then that might be a cue that we're tipping into more financial anxiety territory that could use a little bit of help.
- [17:21]
Joel
Yeah. And you've identified a number of, like, false or temporary solutions that we often turn to when we're dealing with financial anxiety. Can you walk through some of those and maybe explain how they can be, like, short term fixes, really, and they're not actually tackling the root of the problem?
- [17:36]
Lindsay Bryan Podvin
Yeah. So a lot of us tend to fall into one of two things when we're dealing with chronic financial anxiety. We either tend toward perfectionism and the way that that looks in the financial space is consuming a lot of content, or we tend towards procrastination, which we're all familiar with, which is just putting off dealing with our money stuff. And so when we think about perfectionism, you might go, ooh, I'd actually choose that one when it comes to money. But I often see perfectionism and procrastination being tied together where people are scared to start something until they know how to do it. Exactly. Right, right, right. So we all know those people who are.
- [18:15]
Joel
It just sounds better when you call it perfectionism, but it's still preventing you from doing the thing.
- [18:19]
Matt
Yeah. You're still procrastinating as you are perfecting your plan.
- [18:22]
Lindsay Bryan Podvin
Yeah, yeah.
- [18:23]
Matt
Getting kind of close to home.
- [18:23]
Lindsay Bryan Podvin
Lindsay, we may have to set up a session. Yeah. It's really interesting because of the two, you're both spot on that we tend to reward perfectionism a lot more than we reward procrastination. So for somebody who's like, I'm really excited to start investing this year, but what they end up doing is checking out books and listening to podcasts and maybe hiring financial advisors, but not actually following through because they want to do it just right. We know the long term negative consequences of being out of the market for an additional year. Right. So the short term is I'm going to learn everything. So I do this right. Which sounds like okay. Ish, but the long term isn't that great. And then with the procrastination, none of us really like feeling uncomfortable. So it's a great way to put off feeling uncomfortable if dealing with money makes you feel awkward or uncomfortable. So just going, eh, I'm not going to do it. Not a big deal. But then over time it can become a bit problematic.
- [19:25]
Matt
You're just. Yeah, you're saying not today and maybe never is what actually ends up happening. I mean, one of the other things, I think a lot of folks think that just by making more money, right, like having more cash on hand, that a lot of times that that can, that might be able to solve their problems.
- [19:40]
Joel
But that's, I just got that inheritance, it would curb all my financial anxiety.
- [19:44]
Matt
But that's not the case, right?
- [19:45]
Lindsay Bryan Podvin
It's not the case. It is true. I think we're all in agreement that having more money generally does help to provide that additional sense of security. And, and if we don't know how to manage it in a way that feels good for us and is actually sustainable. We've all heard those horror stories of somebody who gets an inheritance or wins the lotto or gets a huge settlement, who goes through it in a year. And it's oftentimes not that they're like, yes, I wanna spend all this money and have nothing left to show for it, but it can sometimes be this self sabotage behavior of money makes me anxious. And so a great thing to do is just to not have it. And it's never that cut and dry. I have this money, money makes me uncomfortable, so I'm going to spend it all. It's much more subtle over time. That can be really harmful when we're dealing with, if I have more money, everything will be better.
- [20:35]
Joel
All right, so, well, how can we dial down money anxiety when it surfaces that maybe for someone who is consistently dealing with it, like some people might need to see a professional, that would be helpful. But what are some skills that maybe we can develop on our own too that can help us handle anxiety a little bit differently and just kind of cope better as individuals?
- [20:56]
Lindsay Bryan Podvin
Yeah. For the perfectionist, I often like to think about what is your good enough in order for you to take action. So going back to this example of investing for retirement, how much is good enough for you to know to start investing sooner than later? And maybe you're like, I need to feel like 75% good with the information that I have in order to start investing. But if you wait until you can to that 100%, it's going to be really, really challenging. Same thing if you're working towards beefing up an emergency fund instead of saying, if you're a perfectionist, okay, I know I need six to nine months, maybe you start with that $401, right. And then you're a dollar more than most Americans have saved. And what we are doing there is we're breaking down these goals into smaller, more tangible steps. And we know that that helps with this positive feedback loop. If I can see save $401, I can probably save another $401, or I have the capacity to save more money and we can start to kind of build on that. And then what that also does is it tells that financial anxiety that kicks up and says, hey, you don't know what, what you're doing with money, you better just quit. Actually, I have an idea of what I'm doing with money and I know how to follow through on it. So it helps to kind of build that muscle, if you will, of financial self esteem. And then on the other hand, with procrastination, oftentimes I'm a huge, huge fan of adding in deadlines to help with procrastination. So a great example of this is, you know, if you're gonna just sit down and watch one Netflix show and then, you know, instead of 20 minutes going by, all of a sudden two and a half hours have gone by. We want to give ourselves a little timer. So actually setting that timer for 20 minutes. So if you're super stressed looking at we're recording this around tax season, if you're super stressed gathering all your documents and uploading them for your accountant, maybe you can say, I'm going to watch a show, set a timer for 20 minutes, and then after that 20 minutes, I'm going to organize my paperwork for 45 minutes and again set a timer. And there's something about that time limited element and we can dial that amount of time down too. But just saying, I'm just going to work on this for 20 minutes. I'm just going to work on this for 40 minutes. It seems so much more doable that I'm going to get everything together that I need in order to do this task. So having some outside parameters, or as we call in the therapy where some scaffolding can be really helpful. Helpful. And I'm also a huge fan of body doubling, both for perfectionism and for procrastination. So that means literally doing one of these tasks with a friend, with your partner. I'm a huge fan of Focus Mate. That pairs you with somebody else and you can work on different tasks for 25, 50 or 75 minutes. And no, I'm not sponsored by them, but it partners you up with them in the zoom room. And you basically say, hey, for the next 50 minutes, I'm gonna work on organizing my tax paperwork. And the person on the other side says, cool, I'm working on an outline for my book. And you put your heads down and get to work. So those are some tips.
- [24:01]
Matt
What was the name of that site again?
- [24:03]
Lindsay Bryan Podvin
It's called Focus Mate. M A t Focus Mate.
- [24:06]
Joel
I love it.
- [24:06]
Matt
Body doubling. Not what it sounds like on the surf.
- [24:10]
Lindsay Bryan Podvin
No, I know, I know, I know. Or stunt doubling. Right. Not quite as exciting. No Top Gun action here.
- [24:16]
Matt
No. This is so good. Yeah. And whether it's breaking these things down into smaller steps or like we were talking about earlier, it's sometimes we think that making more money, that that's the solution. But we're going to talk with you some more and we're going to specifically talk about just ways to improve our overall, our general financial wellness. But oftentimes it's not done in the way that you might think. We will get to all of that right after the first step in solving any problem that we have in life. Whether we're talking about a conflict in a relationship, why the check engine light is on. Right. Flashing on the car, or even why we can't seem to set aside enough money for different goals we have. The first step is to clearly define the problem. We've got to assess the situation. What's going on with your spending? And that is where Monarch money comes in. But Monarch is more than just a budgeting app. It works as your own personal cfo, giving you full visibility and control over all your accounts, investments, and financial goals.
- [25:17]
Joel
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- [25:32]
Matt
Nice.
- [25:32]
Joel
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- [25:43]
Matt
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- [25:59]
Joel
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- [26:34]
Matt
Yeah, we talk about our wives and our kids here on the show all the time. Joel, you've got three, I've got four kids. That is. Well, if you are in a similar boat. Life insurance is crucial to take care of your family. If something happens to you, this isn't something that feels especially urgent. It's not a text message or a call from your boss that you've got to get back to. But it is vitally important. If your loved ones count on your income and life insurance, it's not a one size fits all product. And policy genius doesn't treat it like one. They lay out all of your options clearly. Your coverage, amounts, prices, terms. There is no guesswork, just clarity.
- [27:07]
Joel
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- [27:46]
Matt
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- [28:15]
Joel
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- [28:24]
Matt
All right, we're back.
- [28:25]
Joel
We're still talking about solutions for money anxiety with experts and financial therapist Lindsey Bryant Podvin and Lindsay. Matt and I, we talk a lot about the lack of financial knowledge that Americans have. You know, you talked about that a little bit. Most of us didn't learn much from our parents or we learned bad habits when it comes to how we handle money from our parents. We didn't learn anything in high school. You know, that's becoming, starting to become more of a thing, fortunately is financial literary class, literacy classes in high school. But, and I agree with you, but you say that financial literacy isn't enough and that knowledge doesn't equal transformation. What do you mean by that? And what else is necessary?
- [29:04]
Lindsay Bryan Podvin
We all know to talk about something not money related, what we should be doing to get quote unquote good sleep, right? Most of us know we shouldn't be watching TV right before bed. We shouldn't be drinking a bunch of coffee. We should put on some PJs and not be scrolling on our phones and getting all activated. But the reality is most of us still hop into our beds with our phone in our hands and scroll away until our eyelids get heavy and we fall asleep. We know that that's not great for us. So having somebody else say, hey, don't forget you're not supposed to have blue light exposure, you're not supposed to have coffee before bed isn't going to make a big difference because that's knowledge. So when we're talking about something like sleep hygiene, like going to bed and getting good, regular quality sleep, having more information doesn't necessarily lead to transformation. Similarly, financial literacy is great. We do need that information. And information alone is not enough to incite behavior change, right? So plenty of people know, oh, I should be spending less money than I earn every month. I should be starting a retirement fund. I should potentially open up a 529 for my kiddo. A lot of people are really good at regurgitating the things that they think they're supposed to be doing. But not a lot of us are very good at actually following through. And so when we take that next next step from information into transformation, in my mind, this is where we get into the world of financial wellness, which is the ability to not just understand the financial concepts, financial knowledge, financial literacy, but to actually learn how to make them mean something to you so that you can sustain them for the long term. So to me, financial wellness is understanding what's going on financially, but also creating a financial plan that is sustainable for you, aligned with your values and making sure that it's not spiking your anxiety through the roof when you're engaging with your money.
- [30:57]
Matt
Okay, then let's talk about practical things that we should do. What steps should we take if we're looking to improve our overall financial wellness?
- [31:04]
Lindsay Bryan Podvin
Yeah, this is where it's going to be a little tricky because I know, let me just preface that. Most of us know, like, the handful of things we should be doing with our money in terms of having an emergency fund, paying down high interest debt, making sure that we have a spending plan that works for us, and thinking forward to some of those big picture goals, be it buying a new car or saving for retirement. However, what we know is that do this, then this, then this does not actually work for all of us. So even though let's take the debt snowball versus the debt avalanche, even though we know the debt avalanche works better from a financial perspective, we know that the debt snowball tends to work better from a psychological perspective because it tends to build momentum. So I like to keep that in mind when I'm working with my clients. If they have a ton of credit card debt and also don't have an emergency fund, a lot of us would be like, ah, you need an emergency fund. But if my client is saying, when I fall asleep thinking about that high credit card debt, it stresses me out, I get poor sleep, I'm worried about it all day, then we may focus on the credit card debt first. So for me, this is about tailoring things to work for the person rather than tailoring things to work for the what's right on paper, financially. And this can be really hard, right, to go, oh, well, everybody in the personal finance space says that this is step one, but I really am just struggling with step five here. I need to put my energy towards step five. Then me as a financial therapist, I'm going to say, I'd rather have you do step five than no steps at all. So that's kind of the way that I look at it. So financial wellness gets to be defined differently in terms of what people need to do. Usually I'm trying to figure out what their emotional relationship with money is in case that's getting in the way. So, for example, if financial anxiety is getting in the way of them looking at money, or if they have financial trauma, do we have to process that before they can engage with their money? And, and usually what I'm doing is literally asking them how different financial interactions make them feel. So it could be, how does it feel when you log into your credit card account and go to pay down a lot of debt versus how does it feel to send in your taxes versus what does it feel like to make a student loan payment? And what we're starting to do is figure out what are the patterns related to each of these things and how are they helpful or harmful and what can we do if they are harmful to dial them down enough so we can take meaningful action towards change.
- [33:35]
Joel
So the way you're talking about that, it kind of makes me think of personality types, because maybe, maybe for like an engineer, it's really important. Yeah, the debt avalanche, you know, they might be thinking so analytically that that's the best way for them to go about tackling their debt. But for someone who's a little more of a free spirit, they might need that psychological boost. Right. That the snowball method provides. So. So do you think that, like, knowing your personality type is like a part of kind of figuring out your money story and then a part of attacking and getting better with personal financ? You have like a financial archetype quiz on your site, which I thought was really interesting. And so, yeah, talk to us about the importance of knowing your money personality.
- [34:15]
Lindsay Bryan Podvin
Yeah, your financial archetype definitely helps to provide some insight as to why we do what we do. And the financial archetype is a modification of the MONEY scripts that was developed by a group of financial therapy researchers. But coming. I spent four and a half years in psychiatric research. So I always keep my eyes and my ears open when I find data like this. And it's not that there's anything inherently wrong with that particular data set. It's just that that data set wasn't particularly diverse or representative of the US population. So for me, I kind of took it with a grain of salt. And as a social worker, we are trained to see people from their strengths first rather than to say, what's wrong with this person? So I took some of that information, plus the information that I was seeing in my clients to go, what are some of the strengths that each of these people brings into their relationship with money? And so for some people who may be more of your blissfully ignorant type, they don't want to look at money, they don't want to think about money. A lot of us would be like, ah, that's bad. You have to look at your money. You have to think about money. But what we often find is that those are the people who tend to be more likely to go into helping and healing fields. So we don't necessarily want to diminish that part of why they do what they do. But instead we want to think about how can we potentially dial down the need to give so much of their time and their energy without compensation. For example, teachers tend to be the ones who are, like, also volunteering for PTA meetings and also setting up the school dances. So maybe thinking, you know what you're. You're compensated in the way that you are, and maybe that's enough, and you can say no, or you can give back in a different way. So just thinking a little bit more holistically about the whole person when we're. We're thinking about our relationship with money.
- [36:00]
Matt
That makes sense. Yeah. Your personality is incredibly important. Your emotions are also really important because on one hand, I feel like they can. They can lead us to unhealthy behaviors.
- [36:08]
Joel
Right.
- [36:08]
Matt
Like if. Oh, yeah, like erratic spending, for instance. Like, that's the negative side of things. But you also talk about how, like, you do not want us to take emotions completely out of the equation. Going back to that personality archetype, I filled that out, and I am the money admirer, which I got Doomsday prepper myself.
- [36:27]
Lindsay Bryan Podvin
Oh, okay.
- [36:29]
Matt
So we're on that side of the spectrum. But one of the strengths that was listed out there was just the ability to be objective when it comes to some of your money decisions. So, yeah, I guess how do you find that balance between being objective and not letting your emotions run the show, but at the same time, you want to tend to your emotions a little bit, and there are certain strengths and certain abilities that you can sort of glean harvest from your emotions as well. I'd love to hear you talk about that.
- [36:55]
Lindsay Bryan Podvin
Absolutely. So because I specialize in anxiety, I'm going to use that as an example quite a bit. But when somebody's saying like, oh, my gosh, I'm just so anxious that I'll never be able to retire, I often ask them, well, what is it that's underneath that anxiety? What is that anxiety trying to tell you? Because oftentimes that emotion is trying to signal to us that something's worth looking at. And with that client, let's say they're so worried about retirement. Once we dig under that, they might say, you know, my. My parent worked their entire life. They never took a sick day. They kept saying, like, oh, that's for me in retirement. And once they retired, we hear these stories, sadly, all the time. They became very ill and weren't able to do the things that they wanted to do. So then we go, oh, okay. So some of this anxiety about retiring is potentially related to this. This fact that you had a parent who was not well enough to really enjoy their retirement. So maybe then we go, okay, how can we make sure that you're enjoying your life now and saving up for your future so you don't feel like you're in that anxious spiral? So usually if somebody's experiencing something, oh, I feel so guilty about the shopping spree that I went on. Okay, well, what's that guilt trying to tell you? And what are some of the things that you were purchasing and what was going on in the moment you went on that shopping spree that you were potentially trying to soothe with shopping? So we can use those emotions as little clues about why we do what we do. And so when it comes to taking action in alignment with emotions that are neutral or positive, we also want to bring those into the fold. So if you're working on paying down credit card debt, instead of just telling yourself, like, I'm so stupid for getting into credit card debt in the first place, maybe we say, you know what? I put an extra hundred dollars toward that credit card payment. That feels really good, and I'm really proud of that, that movement. So just some of those kind of loving reframes towards ourself can also be helpful. Helpful.
- [38:51]
Joel
Okay. Loving reframes. Is that how we get rid of shame? Because I love and Matt and I feel the same way. We want to take shame out of personal finance. There's a lot of everybody's made mistakes in the past. And you're right. There are a lot of people in the personal finance space who their initial go to, if you tell them about the mistakes you've made, is to be like, yeah, you're an idiot. How could you do that? We all know people like that who, instead of empowering and helping and pushing people in the right direction, they're just, you know, really kind of making them feel worse about the decision or the mistake they made. So how can we, as individuals kind of tamp down the shame we feel so that we can make more progress? Because often that shame is kind of like hovering over us, and it actually prevents us from making the progress we want to make.
- [39:38]
Lindsay Bryan Podvin
Yeah. Joel, I appreciate you bringing this piece up. So first, I just want to do a quick differentiation between guilt and shame, because oftentimes we use those words interchangeably, but they're. They're different. And then when it comes to money shame, you'll see why it's important. So guilt is an external Feeling I did something bad, I made a mistake. Whereas shame is where we internalize that guilt. I am bad. I am the mistake. And so when it comes to money, we hear that financial shame show up as I'm bad with money or I'll just never get it, or money isn't for people like me. And those types of statements start to then make it seem like it's about a personal character flaw versus if we do guilt and we kind of push it out, away from us, and we say, hey, I never had the opportunity to learn about money. That's something I have the capacity to do. What are the things that I can do to start taking ownership of it that really can be super helpful in making that difference? So when it comes to money shame, we know that shame isn't a great motivator for change. Telling somebody they're bad or wrong or dumb isn't a great way to help people change. But we know that having a few things can help. So I'll lean on Brene Brown, who's a social work researcher that a lot of us know out of Texas, and she has kind of these four things that she says help with shame. And I think that we can take these things and apply them to our finances. So one is just. Just literally saying out loud what it is, what's going on, and what you're feeling. So naming that sensation. I'm embarrassed that I didn't pay my rent on time, or I'm frustrated that the negotiation for my raise didn't go very well. So naming it. The other thing that's super helpful in dialing down shame is external social support or validation. So that's where online communities can be really helpful. Support groups can be helpful. Talking to friends, talking to family, and just having somebody say, say, yeah, I've been there, or oh, that must be really hard. Can help dial down shame. Education is the other thing that can help dial down shame, which is super interesting when it comes to financial stuff, because as I mentioned earlier, we don't want to get to that spiral where all we're doing is learning without implementing. So I would add on an asterisk of, like, education to the point of good enough. And then the last thing that can help with shame is making meaning of the mistake. And again, we want to use the word making mistake instead of I am bad with money, we want to say, oh, I made a mistake with money, and making meaning of that mistake. Ah, you know what? I didn't pay my rent on time because groceries are bananas expensive right now. Or eggs. Expensive right now, I should say. Yeah, exactly. And you know, it's a bummer, but things just happen too much. And what did I learn? I learned that potentially I need to check in on the foods I'm actually eating and not over shop and contribute to food waste in my household. And that may help me move the needle so that I can pay rent on time next time. So those are the four things that can help with shame.
- [42:44]
Matt
Yeah, it's not who you are, but it is about what you did.
- [42:48]
Lindsay Bryan Podvin
Right? Right.
- [42:48]
Matt
Whether, whether it's something you did once or whether this is a, a habit that you maybe keep going back to. And one of the things you, you mentioned, I guess the second one you mentioned there those forms of external support, I mean essentially that's community. Right. Like this is about finding your people and you talk about this when it comes to just general overall financial wellness, how to money Facebook group, that's a place that we're really fond of. But why is a community of like minded folks so helpful for individuals? And you know, how do you suggest for folks to find their own tribe if they're not, if they're looking for maybe something beyond an online group, how would you recommend for folks to go about that?
- [43:25]
Lindsay Bryan Podvin
So to answer your first question, community is important because humans are social beings. Even for the introverts among us, we know that having community support matters. One of the things that we know as humans we need for survival is to feel like we belong. So having community of people who share either similar demographics or psychographics or goals with us can help support us as we navigate through the inevitable mistakes that we will make in relationship to our money and in terms of, of finding communities. I do love online communities, but I so agree that it is helpful to take things off of the Internet. And I've had a front row seat to see a lot of different ways that people can do that given my line of work. So some ways that some of my folks have taken the community thing and really put it into real life is a money book club. So in my community there's a local money book club meetup where each month they read a different money book and they chat about it and they talk about what they liked, we what they didn't. I've had other folks who have an investing club and this is not over going in and buying crypto and trading crypto. They more or less like kind of play with investing. So they're invested in like your, your standard no load index funds. But what they'll do Is kind of follow a stock for a month and see what happens. Just to kind of scratch that curiosity and be a bit more engaged in the market and then other kind of money adjacent ones to take offline are all of your, you know, no buy Facebook groups if you can take them online offline, take on swap meets offline. A lot of my friends have kiddos and as you guys know with kiddos they tend to grow like crazy. So I've seen friends of mine who will be like, okay, I've got a bunch of one year old clothes. Let's all go over to our friend who just had a newborn, bring them those clothes over there and kind of just, just provide some space for that new family. While talking about yes, clothes but also kind of providing some financial minded support in that way.
- [45:32]
Joel
Yeah, that's great. I love it. And I do think that the way that we can find community online is really incredible. And for, for someone who wants to find their tribe to help them with money questions they have or with encouragement. Finding people online is one part of the puzzle, but it can't be the whole thing. And I think you have to find people locally where you are who share some of those. Yeah, similar goals and desires as well. But Lindsay, we've got a few more questions we want to get to with you. We want to talk about self care and we want to talk about relationships like relationship dynamics and money and how we can make those better. We'll get to those questions right after this. I still remember the birth of my first child. You never forget that day. But aside from the joy, it made me think long and hard about a slew of things, life insurance included. Matt, I'd never felt the need before, but I knew at that point in time it became a necessity for our family. And policygenius, of course, makes finding and buying life insurance simple. Ensuring that your loved ones have a financial safety net they can use to cover debts and routine expenses. With Policygenius, you can find life insurance policies starting at just $276 a year for $1 million in coverage. It's an easy way to protect the people you love and feel good about the future.
- [46:46]
Matt
Yeah, we talk about our wives and our kids here on the show all the time. Joel, you've got three, I've got four kids. That is. Well, if you are in a similar boat. Life insurance is crucial to take care of your family. If something happens to you, this isn't something that feels especially urgent. It's not a text message or a call from your boss. That you've got to get back to. But it is vitally important if your loved ones count on your income. In life insurance, it's not a one size fits all product and PolicyGenius doesn't treat it like one. They lay out all of your options clearly your coverage, amounts, prices, terms. There is no guesswork, just clarity.
- [47:19]
Joel
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- [49:14]
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- [49:36]
Matt
All right, we are back from the break and again we're talking with financial therapist Lindsey Brian Podvin, talking about financial wellness, we're talking about money anxiety. And Lindsay, let's talk about self care for a second here because you know, we, we think that self care, it's important, right? But it's also gone off the rails a little bit. You recently made a video about financial self care and how it is that someone can go about doing some of that on the cheap. Can you, can you share a few of your favorites?
- [50:04]
Lindsay Bryan Podvin
Oh yeah. Again, I get this front row seat to see different ways people practice financial self care. So for me, I really think about financial self care is the ways that you can take care of yourself physically, mentally, emotionally and spiritually that may intersect with your finances. Right. And we know that oftentimes to practice financial self care it might cost a little bit of money or a little bit of time. So we wanna make sure we carve out that time. So the video you're referring to, I did 37 different ways that you can practice financial self self care. And, and the reason that I shared that was that it's not always, you know, journaling under the moon with candlelight. All of your money manifestations though it can be, but it can also be, I automated a savings account goal to have a little bit of money move from my checking into a high yield savings account every single month. So when the holidays roll around, I have money available and that's practicing financial self care for me because I love getting gift giving and I also don't like to be stressed around the holidays. Right. So that could be an example of financial self care. So there are a bunch of different ways that you can practice it. I shared at the top of this episode that for me practicing literal self care is a part of my financial self care. So if I go get a massage or a facial or buy new jewelry, as long as it's a part of that little fun money bucket, I feel like that helps me to kind of check that box off. And recently, you know, now that I'm in my mid to late 30s. How old, how old? What is time? After the pandemic, I'm like, I don't know. My partner and I, even though we're super comfy with our money, we have instituted meeting with a financial planner once a year Just to kind of double check, our T's are crossed and our I's are dotted and we're on the right track. So sometimes having that little external eyes on advice can be helpful.
- [51:50]
Joel
Very cool.
- [51:51]
Matt
Yeah. I think it's important to reframe it in that way. Right. Like these are just oftentimes you hear self care and you think of splurging and you think of throwing caution to the wind, wasting money. Yeah, but, but what we're talking about here are habits, and you talked about this too. Just how these are things that are repeatable. These are healthy behaviors that will ultimately lead to, in this case, financial success.
- [52:10]
Lindsay Bryan Podvin
Yes.
- [52:11]
Joel
Well, let's talk about relationships too, because I'm sure as a financial therapist, you never get people coming in and talking about how they aren't able to communicate with their partner about money. Right. That's. Nobody's ever said that to you, right?
- [52:22]
Lindsay Bryan Podvin
I don't know what you're talking about.
- [52:23]
Joel
Exactly. Exactly. But of course, we know from the stats that fighting about money is one of the leading causes of separation, of divorce, of issues in a relationship. So. Yeah. What, what are you telling people? What tips do you have for how couples can talk about money more effectively?
- [52:41]
Lindsay Bryan Podvin
So the flip side of couples who argue about money separate, which is true, is that couples who talk about money regularly report being happier than those that don't. So I usually invite my clients into that frame of reference because if they have associated talking about money with fighting about money, of course it's going to be difficult. So I have a few guidelines that I like to share with couples who are trying to be more effective in communicating about money and aligning their financial goals with one another. So one is making sure you have carved out time to have your money date, which means no drive bys. And when I mean drive by, I mean no walking out the door and being like, hey, honey, by the way, I maxed out the credit card talk to you tonight. Like, that is not a good way to effectively communicate with your partner that you want to talk about the credit card. Instead. It would be like when you're sitting down to dinner saying, hey, this Sunday after we go for our hike, I want to sit down and look at our finances. Specifically, I'm really curious with how high our credit card bill has gotten. So giving them a heads up to understand what you want to talk about, making it neutral. Instead of saying, you racked up the credit card, I want to talk about what you did to overspend, you're saying, what can we do? I Want us to look at this together. You're giving them some time to emotionally and mentally prepare for it. You're carving out that time and space. And then during that time where you're talking about that specific, specific thing, acknowledge your part. Hey, you know, I realized recently I've been grabbing for the credit card more frequently than the debit card, too. I own my stuff. But also being cognizant of when is it time to slow down that money conversation versus when is it time to stop altogether? Meaning knowing your orange and your red flags for me, if I'm talking, if I'm having a money date with my partner, orange flags for me is that I'm getting a little snappy, a little bit short with my answers. That's a cue that I'm like, you know what? I'm hitting that orange flag. I need five. And that could literally be, I'm going to go grab a glass of water, I'm going to let the dog out, whatever it may be. But a red flag is going to be when you're too heated to continue in that conversation without causing harm. So for me, that's when I completely shut down. That's when my short answers have gone to non existent. I know I've hit record red flag territory and we have to hit pause and come back at a different time. Notice how I say hit pause and don't ever come back. I'm saying hit pause. I'm not saying stop forever. So saying, you know what? I'm maxed out today. I'm really glad we're having this conversation, but I'm feeling myself really kind of heightened emotionally right now. Let's. Let's put a pin in it. We can come back to it tomorrow or we can come back to it next week, whatever it may be. So those are a few things in is making sure that you're carving out the time to talk about it, owning your part in it, acknowledging your orange and red flags. And one thing about having money dates is if you have them at a regular cadence, you don't have to feel like you have to do everything all at once. So you can say, look, I just want to talk about taxes next time, or I just want to talk about our 529 savings plan, or I want to talk about where we're going on vacation next year. So making sure that you're thinking through those things. And I don't know if that was you, Joel, or Matt who was like, talk.
- [55:58]
Joel
He makes a weird sound.
- [56:01]
Lindsay Bryan Podvin
But the other thing is thinking about talking about money as a way to strengthen your relationship. So maybe talking about taxes isn't like super fun and exciting, but maybe you get the m when we're talking about vacations. And so when we think about what would it be like to be on that vacation, what are the things that we want to do, what are the values that are important to us that we will have met when we take that trip, that also helps to add meaning to that specific financial goal.
- [56:29]
Joel
I feel like so much of what you're talking about here too, so many of the way the ways you framed it are about being a team and not pinning everything on one person. But also you're talking about it as like you guys against something else, fighting to achieve something as opposed to like you and me against each other. And so much of that framing I think is going to have a massive impact on. Yeah. The amount you're able to accomplish as a team.
- [56:56]
Lindsay Bryan Podvin
Yes, yes, Such a good point. Because that's the thing. I think we come into these money conversations thinking I'm right and you're wrong or whatever, versus the goal is to make sure that we have enough money to do the things that we want to do so we can practice financial self care and have a healthy relationship with money. Because money is that tool that affords us the ability to do the other things that we want to do. So if we're on the same team, if we're collaborating towards that goal, then it is like encouraging one another and cheering each other on and being duo, like a duo as you work towards this goal. So it's so, so important to make sure you're talking about it and you're, you're on the same page.
- [57:37]
Matt
Yeah. And I think finding some balance in those conversations as well too. I mean, you know, you mentioned vacation, you're mentioning taxes. If, if all you do is talk about the taxes side of things. Right. If you're only talking about your debt and how underwater y' all are, if you're only talking about your credit card statements and how they're just like five, six, seven, eight pages long now, that's going to be difficult to get the, get your partner excited. On the contrary, if you're only talking about the things that you want to achieve, I guess all the fun things, I think there can be a lack of where the rubber meets the road when it comes to those conversations. And it's like, well, that's, that sounds great and all, but how do we actually get there? It takes, it takes that combination of both and that's what you're talking about here. So last question. You know, again, the financial therapy industry, it seems like it's still in its infancy, and we talk through a lot of tips. You've given a lot of great information here where folks can kind of take that information and just enact it within their own lives. But how can folks find an actual financial therapist if that's what they're looking for?
- [58:32]
Lindsay Bryan Podvin
So a great way to find a financial therapist is obviously you can type in financial therapist plus my state. You know, Google will do its. Its magic there. The Financial Therapy association has a directory of financial therapists, but the asterisk I will include here is that anybody can be a member of the Financial Therapy Association. So some people are financial planners who don't necessarily have a certificate in financial therapy. But at least you're narrowing in on the types of people who are interested in practicing holistic financial planning. So, as I said, hopefully more and more people will be on that directory as time goes on. But for now, you can turn to Google. You can turn to the Financial Therapy association directory to try and find somebody. And a lot of financial planners do have that holistic view, so you can read through some of those bios and see if there might be somebody who kind of fits the bill.
- [59:25]
Joel
Gotcha. Lindsay, this has been such an awesome conversation. Thank you so much for joining us. Where can our listeners find out more about you and what you're up to?
- [59:32]
Lindsay Bryan Podvin
My business is called Mind, Money, Balance. My website, podcast, YouTube, Instagram are all of the same name, so you can come chat with me in any of those places. And as Joel and Matt mentioned, my quiz is free. It's mindmoneybalance.com quiz if you want to learn more about your financial archetype.
- [59:50]
Matt
That's right. Well, we will make sure to point folks to all of those different links. Lindsay, thank you for joining us today.
- [59:55]
Lindsay Bryan Podvin
Thank you. Thank you.
- [59:56]
Joel
All right, Matt, what a great conversation. And, you know, you and I, we try not to just talk about the nuts and bolts of money.
- [60:02]
Matt
I'll just be over here making the.
- [60:03]
Joel
Weird noises as you do. Yeah, it does get weird sometimes. But, you know, you and I were often talking about nuts and bolts, but we try to incorporate other elements. We try to talk about psychology and motivation, and we try to make sure that we're running the full gamut. But this is a place where we're really out of our depths. And so I'm glad we were able to bring Lindsey on to discuss some of the finer points of dealing with financial anxiety and Handling money better from an emotional standpoint. What was your big takeaway from this conversation?
- [60:29]
Matt
Yeah, well, since tomorrow is Valentine's Day, happy V Day to everyone out there. I'm going to focus on, I guess maybe the relational. Like towards the end of the conversation, they were talking about relationships, and specifically she was talking about money dates. And the way that you make those successful is that you carve out the time on your calendar to make sure that that is something that is going to happen. I look back on my life and the most, some of the most successful things that I've ever been able to accomplish is because I scheduled it, like, literally because it was on the calendar. Whether it was something that was somewhat passive and more automated, AKA repeat every week, or whether it was just looking ahead and saying, hey, let's talk about this once this date rolls around. And so it just takes being intentional. And I like what she said. What Lindsey was saying about money conversations can't be this drive by thing. It can't be this thing where you're just like, oh, hey, by the way, we're over our limit on our $20,000 card. Let's talk about that sometime. It takes being intentional, getting a date on the calendar, allowing the other partner to have some time to process. Oh, hey, we are going to talk about money. Not to get anxious about it, but for them to realize, oh, okay, cool, let's, let's make sure we've got the right information, the right data, glass of wine, maybe crack open a nice beer, that kind of thing to make it fun as well.
- [61:45]
Joel
Yeah. And if you're a single person and if it's on your calendar, it's more likely to happen. And if you are a couple and it's on your shared calendar is way.
- [61:51]
Matt
More likely to happen. Boom. But if you're just send that invite.
- [61:53]
Joel
Hey, maybe this weekend sometime, let's get around to it. Probably not going to happen because there's other stuff that's going to take the place. So I like setting it in stone somewhere on your calendar.
- [62:00]
Matt
It's about being intentional, man.
- [62:02]
Joel
Yeah. All right. So I think about you, though. My big takeaway was when she said, what is your good enough? And I was like, dang, that's good.
- [62:08]
Matt
Yeah, that's really good.
- [62:09]
Joel
Because I think there's so many times in life where we say, like, yeah, I want to do that. And this happens a lot, I would say, with people who want to invest in real estate and they're saying, but I got to know every single this and, or, but. And Until I get to that point, like, there's no way I can jump into this. And at some point, you have to say, all right, I've done my due diligence. You have to do your due diligence. Right. You have to read a book. You have to kind of know what you're doing. You have to crunch numbers. But at some point, like, there's point.
- [62:37]
Matt
You just got to put an offer in on the house, and you just got to own that second property.
- [62:41]
Joel
That's right.
- [62:41]
Matt
Yeah.
- [62:41]
Joel
At some point, you have to do it. And so I think you got to figure out what you're good enough. Is it. You can learn all of the many hundreds of reasons why investing in index funds inside of your 401k is a good thing for your financial future. But you could also learn just a few things and say, that's good enough. That's good enough. I know enough to at least get started. And you can always go back and learn more on the back end, which I think is good. It's kind of fun to, now that you're started, get even deeper. Yeah, but you got to get started.
- [63:09]
Matt
Once you got some of that skin in the game, it becomes way more real. And there's just lessons that you learn from having skin in the game. Right. From having started and opened that Roth ira, from having. Initiating that transaction. All of those things that you learn along the way. Yeah. That's when she was talking about how essentially, like, perfectionism, it's the flip side of procrastination. Yeah. And that one stung a little bit because that's totally my. Totally my mo.
- [63:34]
Joel
Lindsay just, like, opened your guts and peered into your soul, Right.
- [63:36]
Matt
Then maybe she'll. She'll caught me. That first session she mentioned after calling you out publicly, I'm totally fine with it. Would not have mentioned it if I wasn't. But let's go ahead and get to the beer that you and I enjoyed during this episode. This was a Mexican lager. This was by High Cotton Brewing. What were your thoughts on this one, buddy?
- [63:56]
Joel
Well, my first thought was, you forgot to bring the lime, dude. Okay, so that's on you.
- [64:00]
Matt
Hey, if you need lime with your beer to enjoy it, you. You're drinking the wrong beer.
- [64:05]
Joel
It's a Mexican lager. That's the only beer that you're supposed to put a lime in, right? Well, supposedly, yeah, if you're into that. Well, so this one was, like, really, really crisp. I thought it was.
- [64:13]
Matt
Oh, yeah.
- [64:14]
Joel
Just like. That's the only. That's the best adjective I have to describe this one. It definitely tasted like a Mexican lager, but maybe a slightly finer, craft beerier version of a Mexican lager. And so, yeah, did not need a lime, but I would be interested to see what it tasted like with one crisp.
- [64:29]
Matt
Yeah, it had that snap. It like, makes me think of like a. Just a fresh head of iceberg lettuce and you're just like, crunch. Yeah, yeah, exactly. For me, like, I feel like it almost had like some white wine qualities to it. And so Mexican lagers don't typically have all a ton of depth. But this one, I don't know, it was crisp, but simultaneously, it kind of had what I'll oftentimes is it Pinot Grigio? That's a type of white wine.
- [64:54]
Joel
That's really the wrong guy. Yeah, no, it is a type of wine. I do know that.
- [64:56]
Matt
Okay. So that's the kind that sometimes is described as like, smelling or even tasting like a new garden hose or like a fresh can of tennis balls. This beer, I felt like this beer totally also had that going on.
- [65:09]
Joel
No, it's not a negative thing.
- [65:10]
Matt
It's just kind of. Just the flavors.
- [65:12]
Joel
It's kind of like when we say barnyard funk with a saison, it's like some people would be like, gross. No, no, no. It's actually. Yeah, it's kind of a weird description.
- [65:18]
Matt
But it's also a way to kind of describe what you're t. I like the funk. Yeah.
- [65:22]
Joel
Personally, absolutely.
- [65:23]
Matt
But this was a fantastic beer. I'm glad this was one that you were able to pick up for us, man.
- [65:27]
Joel
Actually, this was my brother in law and sister in law. They got this beer.
- [65:30]
Matt
Oh, did they?
- [65:31]
Joel
Yeah. So thanks to Ben and Rachel for grabbing this beer.
- [65:33]
Matt
Yeah. Because they're up there in Memphis, which is where this beer is brewed. Yeah. Thank you both Ben and Rachel for donating this one to the show. But, Joel, that's gonna be it for this episode. We'll make sure to link to some of the different resources that Lindsay shared there at the end of our conversation. You can find those up on our website@howtomoney.com maybe take that financial archetype quiz and let us know it was interesting.
- [65:58]
Joel
And it was accurate.
- [65:59]
Matt
Yeah, yeah, it really was. It's funny. Oftentimes you read those and you're like, how do they know? But, yeah, it's a lot of fun. But that's gonna be it for this episode. Until next time, Best friends out. Best friends out. Did it occur to you that he.
- [66:28]
Lindsay Bryan Podvin
Charmed you in any way. Yes, it did.
- [66:32]
Matt
But he was a charming man.
- [66:34]
Lindsay Bryan Podvin
It looks like the ingredients of a.
- [66:36]
Matt
Really grand spy story because this ties together the Cold War with the new one.
- [66:42]
Lindsay Bryan Podvin
I often ask myself now, did I.
- [66:45]
Matt
Know the true Yan at all? Listen to Hot Agent of chaos on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. This Pride Month, we are not just celebrating, we're fighting back. I'm George M. Johnson, author of the most banned book in America. On my podcast, Fighting Words, I sit down with voices that spark resistance and inspire change.
- [67:10]
Joel
This year we are showing up and showing out.
- [67:13]
Lindsay Bryan Podvin
You need people being like, no, you're not going to tell us what to do. This huge meme is coming down on.
- [67:19]
Matt
Us and I don't want to just survive.
- [67:21]
Lindsay Bryan Podvin
I want to thrive. Fighting Words is where courage meets conversation. Listen on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts.
- [67:29]
Matt
Or wherever you get your podcasts.
- [67:32]
Lindsay Bryan Podvin
This is an iHeart podcast.