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- [00:00]
Dr. Sonja Luder
This is an Iheart podcast. Guaranteed human.
- [00:04]
iHeart Podcast Announcer
Run a business and not thinking about podcasting, Think again. More Americans listen to podcasts than ad supported streaming music from Spotify and Pandora. And as the number one podcaster, iHeart's twice as large as the next two combined. Learn how podcasting can help your business. Call 844-844-IHeart.
- [00:20]
Ben Higgins
Your software needs to be compliant to win deals, but you also need your engineers focused on building your product, not pulling SOC2 evidence. Enter a third option. Make Vanta your first security hire. Vanta uses AI and automation to get you compliant fast. Simplify your audit process and unblock deals so you can prove to your customers that you take security seriously. Plus, Vanta scales right along with you, backed by support that's there when you need it every step of the way. That's why top startups like Cursor, Linear and Replit use Vanta to get and stay secure. Don't sock block your best engineer. Set them free and get compliant fast with Vanta. Get started@vanta.com welcome to how to Money.
- [01:12]
Joel
I'm Joel and today we're discussing how to talk about money without fighting with Dr. Sonja Luder. Okay, so money fights are one of the most common and most damaging sources of tension in a relationship. Whether it's spending debt or mismatched financial goals, those arguments can quietly erode trust and connection over time. But here's the good news. Money doesn't have to be the thing that drives couples apart. When partners develop healthy financial habits and they learn how to communicate about money, it can actually strengthen the relationship. And that's why I'm excited to welcome Dr. Sonia Luder to the show today. She's both a marriage therapist, she's a financial planner, and she leads the financial health and wellness program at Texas Tech. She brings a rare research backed perspective on how couples can keep money from being a stumbling block and instead make it a source of teamwork. So, Sonia, thank you so much for joining me on the show today.
- [02:24]
Dr. Sonja Luder
Hi Joel, thanks for having me. Looking forward to the conversation.
- [02:28]
Joel
Yeah, me too. First question I ask everyone who comes on though, and it helps us get to know a little bit about you, is you're trying to do the smart thing with your money, but you got to splurge a little bit in the here and now too. What is it that you're splurging on?
- [02:40]
Dr. Sonja Luder
Absolutely. Life is short. We have to splurge every once in a while. I really love a good dinner and I'm okay spending a little Bit extra to have the better piece of steak or the perfectly paired glass of wine. It's just my absolute most favorite thing to do. The ambiance, everything is wonderful.
- [03:01]
Joel
I love a good dinner, too. I will say, steak so expensive these days, right? I mean, like, it's. I'm reading all about the restaurants having a tough time trying to figure out how to not raise prices too much and freak people out. But even if you just go buy a steak at the store right now, you're just shocked at how much it costs. It's like it's enough to make a person go to chicken, isn't it?
- [03:21]
Dr. Sonja Luder
I don't know about that.
- [03:24]
Joel
I know I still love a good steak. Okay, let's talk about the cross section of finance and therapy. It still feels like this is something that's in its infancy, that combination of both of those things. Like, what drew you into that space initially?
- [03:41]
Dr. Sonja Luder
Yeah, you know, I started out in financial planning, thought I was going to be a financial planner. And I didn't really feel comfortable or even know how to have the conversation about emotions or stress or anything else with couples primarily was my interest. And so that's what drew me in initially. And I was one of the co founders of the Financial Therapy association. And that was almost 20 years ago. And we're still, as a profession, as a discipline, as a group of people trying to figure out what that really means to blend these two. So I think your question is spot on, that humans in general know that money is a large contributor to their relationships, whether that's with their partner or their children or their parents, siblings, friends, etc. And we don't really know what to do with that. Like, we recognize that it's an issue, and then we struggle with taking that next step. And there's a whole bunch of reasons for that, but a lot of it is we were never taught how to talk about money. And so it's scary to start that conversation. And for me, this has been. My passion is to help normalize the experience for couples and families and friends to have more natural conversations about money.
- [05:04]
Joel
How does someone know if they need a financial planner, if they need a financial coach, or if they need a financial therapist? Like, I love that experts exist in each of these different realms, but I think if you. If you opt for the wrong person at the wrong time, the wrong professional, you might be paying for something you don't actually need. Maybe you thought you needed a financial planner, but you actually needed a therapist. You needed someone to talk to about your emotions or Vice versa. Or maybe you just needed a coach to help you with some, like, basic budgeting techniques. How do you think about which route people should go?
- [05:39]
Dr. Sonja Luder
I'm smirking because I don't even know that I agree with how you described each of those, even just ever so briefly with the financial coach being somebody to help with the budgeting. I would see that more as a financial counselor. So there are distinctions between each of these various things. So for me, a financial planner, if you want to go to them, you know that it's going to be an investment, an investment of your time, an investment of gathering all of the relevant information, an investment of making this commitment to something long term. And there's going to be a cost associated with that. So I think if you're going to go see a financial planner, you already have a really clear sense of what your financial goals are. You might not know how to implement them, but you have the goals and you're ready to take action on them. Financial planner, super solid option there. Financial counselor was the one that I would go with for the coaching example that you gave. Right now, perfect time to think about maybe coming off of holiday spending and you're getting all of your bills in the mail and you're just trying to figure out what to do next. Financial counselors are really helpful in that regard to help you get the plan in place. So maybe it's just the stress of overwhelming not knowing where to start. Counselor's super great coach, I would say, is really good for the person who is lost and they're looking for some sort of direction. So maybe you don't know what the goals are, but you know you want to have goals. A financial coach could be super good for that. Just like when you're trying to learn a new sport, the coach is there to guide you and tell you this is how you do it. Yeah, same thing with financial coaches. Financial therapists are, they're still pretty rare, as you said. And a lot of the existing financial therapists who are out there have some sort of training in mental health. And so maybe they came to the financial space from social work or marriage and family therapy, psychology, etc. And so they are going to be much better prepared to go backwards in time and address why is it that you're stuck right here. And I would say that's something that's unique to financial therapist, is that willingness to go backwards before going forwards.
- [08:06]
Joel
How, how often is that a problem for people? Right? Like, is, is that something where you're like, man, most people would Actually really benefit from seeing a financial therapist, even though there aren't many out there, or do you think it's more of, like, more of a rarity? I mean, I'm guessing, like, the things. The way we handle money, often there's something from. I know for me, at least, like a lot of stuff from my childhood is exactly why I do what I do. I can clearly see that line, but a lot of people have a hard time seeing it.
- [08:37]
Dr. Sonja Luder
Yeah. The same question could be asked, how many of us should be going to therapy? Probably everyone at some point. Everyone could benefit from it. Right. Just like everybody really could benefit from financial therapy, just as you're saying. Saying that there's pretty much nothing that I can think of that's a current issue that's not tied to a previous issue. So I would say there's definite advantages there. It's more of a willingness of. If that's preventing you from taking future action, absolutely. It could bolster what you're already doing. But I would say the financial therapist is most critical when you continue to fail or you continue to struggle to get over some sort of barrier. And those are pretty. I would. I want to use the word extreme, but it doesn't necessarily need to be like over the top extreme. But thinking of situations such as a widow is coming to you as a. For assistance in terms of what to do as the next steps, if that widow is struggling with just paying daily bills and getting to the office to have a conversation with you, or remembering to check in on Zoom for the conversation, I would say that's a pretty good indicator that financial therapy could be helpful in that situation, because we can't even take that very first step to make the next step possible.
- [10:10]
Joel
It's not like she needs more personal finance literacy necessarily. She needs grief consultation. She needs someone to, like, walk through what's happened.
- [10:18]
Dr. Sonja Luder
Precisely.
- [10:18]
Joel
Okay.
- [10:19]
Dr. Sonja Luder
Somebody who's willing to slow down and have those conversations. That's exactly right, Joel. And the same thing is true very often for big family conversations. So if you think of a family office, financial therapist would actually be really helpful there because there's a whole lot of dynamics going on with navigating the different relationships between the dyads, the triads, et cetera, within that family.
- [10:44]
Joel
You recently published a study about how people feel about their money versus how well they're actually doing. I found that really interesting because there's just so much lately about how. Just how people perceive themselves and then how they perceive the world around them. And there's just a lot of like, it doesn't always match up. A lot of people are like, I'm doing pretty good. The world's going to hell in a hand basket. What did, what did you, what did this study entail and what did you find?
- [11:11]
Dr. Sonja Luder
This has got to be one of my current favorite studies. It's with a former student of mine, Dr. Van Deen, at the University of Wisconsin Superior. And a lot of this started from her wanting to measure financial wellness. And I said, okay, well, I don't know that people are interpreting that the same way. So we put people into quadrants of, I feel like I'm doing well with my finances. But if you look objectively on paper, they're not doing so great. And then if you kind of think of the catty corner from that, we've got people who don't think that they're doing very good with their finances, but on paper they're actually doing really good. And then we have the people who think they're doing bad, and really on paper it doesn't look so good. And then vice versa. People who are doing good, people who.
- [11:58]
Joel
Are living in reality, whether it's good or bad.
- [12:00]
Dr. Sonja Luder
Right, exactly. And I thought that was so useful because especially those two where they're not aligned. That's the problem, right? Where people are not living in reality. And it's equally as dangerous for people to think that they're doing well and then objectively not be okay because they don't even recognize the need to take action. And so we need to get some sort of information out there in front of them and really from a stages of change perspective, help them understand that their behaviors could be influencing the people that they care most about. And that's not even on their radar at all. They think that they're doing okay, so why change anything? And I mean, think about this in terms of maybe an aging parent and they're really helping out their adult children and maybe even their grandchildren because it's a nice thing to do and they want to be able to help them. And maybe what they're not realizing is the damage this is doing to their personal situation and potentially not being able to support their own life through the duration of their lifespan. And so, in effect, they are going to have to be relying on that same child that they're funding right now instead of encouraging that adult child to take action on their own. So I think it's really helpful in terms of having that conversation of, I know that you think you're trying to be helpful, but let's look at this objectively as well and see how this might be influencing you.
- [13:36]
Joel
How do you get through to someone who, who is misguided even about the situation they're in? Like, I know some people who have a generous heart and I love it's, it's a beautiful thing. But sometimes it's to such an extreme that they're really harming their own potential financial future and they could create other difficulties inside of their family were they to follow through right on some of those desires that they have to be generous. Again, this is like I'm all for generosity, but there's a, for some people, maybe it's potential to be generous to a fault. So when someone is like lacking understanding, I guess about where they fall on the spectrum, how do you get through to them?
- [14:16]
Dr. Sonja Luder
Yeah, spot on. So these are what I would call the dangerous quadrant people. We are not on a good pathway here and that person isn't even recognizing it at all. And when a person is not aware of the impact of their behaviors, it's what we might call a pre contemplation stage of mentality. And they're not even worried about changing anything because there is no problem. And you can give them all of the education that you would like to give them. It's going to cost this much for you to retire. This is how much long term care costs in case, in the event that you might need that, here's the cost of rising housing, et cetera, et cetera. It's not going to be helpful because in their mind they're fine. So when a person is in that mentality of I'm fine, when in reality they're not, it really is that extrinsic motivation that's going to be helpful and helping them see, talk to them about, okay, well what does this look like for your daughter when she's 50 years old and you are 80 years old, let's say. And just try to help them visualize a different point in time with the people that they care most about. And the answer is obvious to you, but no point in this are you providing any sort of education or advice. It's simply helping a person see different points in time and the different people in their life and how they could be impacted by this behavior. And whenever you see discrepancies, then you can highlight it to where something like maybe they say, I just want to be generous and this is really important to me. You can say that back to them like, yeah, I hear that you want to be generous. And that's very admirable and, and I love that about you and I'm very encouraging of generosity, just like you said. And let's think about what your generosity might mean for your, whoever they just said, your daughter. When you are entering into the retirement years, do you want to continue that generosity or are you going to have to decrease some of that generosity and you're just helping them see those different points in time?
- [16:41]
Joel
There have been studies about the impact of financial stress on decision making capabilities. How does that usually play out? And how can folks who are living closer to subsistence, like they don't have tons of extra money coming in. How can. Maybe I just think about how negative financial stress can be and it can reduce. Average IQ is reduced by like 14 points or something if you're feeling constant money stress. So it really like in actuality, being stressed about money makes you less able to make good decisions. Do you have any advice for people like that?
- [17:16]
Dr. Sonja Luder
Yeah, biologically this is true. And people try to fight me on this topic all of the time. But the reality is when you are under stress, your body goes into the fight or flight response mechanism. That's something that I think most people are familiar with. And when your body goes into that fight or flight response mechanism, your brain is making decisions based off of habit and emotion. They want to get away from the situation or fight through the situation that's faced in front of them. And that's what makes financial stress so dangerous, is because people are not worried about the long term and they're trying to do something now to prevent something in the future from happening when their brain can't even process the future term. And one of my favorite things about this is stress is so easy to measure. And the fight or flight response, the physiological stress, not your perception of stress, the real life stress that's impacting your brain's ability to make decisions. And it's your skin temperature. You've heard the phrase, are you getting cold feet? It's the same thing. It's our, the body's extremities get colder when we go into the fight or flight response mechanism. Do you know why, Joel?
- [18:33]
Joel
No.
- [18:34]
Dr. Sonja Luder
Because the blood is going back to the heart to prepare for that physical reaction. And that's what I'm saying. We can't even stop it. This is biology at play. It doesn't look the same as it did hundreds of years ago. We're not physically running away, but we're definitely running away by pulling out our phone. You've seen it when you're out at wherever and there's a lull in activity and people just pull out their phone. It's like we don't even know what to do with ourselves. That's the automatic go to of I'm feeling kind of uneasy. Let me just get out the phone and start looking at that. And it's the same thing people do with their mini. I'm starting to feel a little bit uneasy. Let me just go get this thing to help me feel better.
- [19:15]
Joel
So part of the solution is being in touch with our bodies at least a little bit, right?
- [19:19]
Dr. Sonja Luder
Exactly.
- [19:20]
Joel
And.
- [19:20]
Dr. Sonja Luder
And when you feel that your hands are cold, you can feel the difference between your hands being cold and warm. So ideal temperature we're looking for is about 90 degrees Fahrenheit, which is warm to the touch compared to 70, which is closer to what mine is right now. That is a very noticeable 20 degrees difference that you can feel. And when you feel that cold hands and when your significant other. I think this is great for couples to be able to know what it feels like to be stressed. And if you are coming home at the end of the day and you're holding your partner's hand and you notice that they have cold hands, let's not launch into a really deep conversation right then. Like it's not going to be helpful. Let's not go through our monthly budget right then. Instead, let's talk about what's top of mind. I think it's a really great way to set up a conversation and make sure that all people are in the right mentality to be able to hear the information and take action on the information.
- [20:25]
Joel
You've also said, I've heard you say that money is never just about money. And I think that's true for sure. And I guess when you first start thinking about personal finance, it seems like math is the most important, important thing to take into it. But I think over the years I've come to believe that emotions trump math much of the time. So. But is there something. It's. How do we identify what's happening beneath the surface when we're thinking about how we treat money or react to money or react to even like a money decision that a spouse or partner makes? And doesn't this imply that. That all financial conversations are going to be so much more complicated than maybe they would seem like they should be at first glance?
- [21:13]
Dr. Sonja Luder
Definitely they are harder than they should be and need to be. It goes back to recognizing yourself. It's all about that self awareness. So it starts by tracking and let's say you have a Conflict, not an argument, but a disagreement with your significant other. Write it down and talk about what the content of that conversation was, but also talk about what came right before it and what came right after it. And you're just journaling about this so you might recognize that maybe the conflict was about, you didn't tell me about this bill that we had coming up. But also the things that were surrounding it were things such as maybe the one of the children needed something for school and we weren't able to get that thing for school. So once you start tracking this and then maybe the next thing you see is we had a conflict that I don't know, you spent too much.
- [22:18]
Joel
An unexpected expense came and I was, I was flummoxed by it.
- [22:22]
Dr. Sonja Luder
Yeah, exactly. Then I also noticed that in one month we have a competition that we're going to for one of the kids. And as you start tracking these things, it's not obvious at the moment, but then I can start seeing that, okay, I'm really having these maybe more reactive situations when there's also these events tied to my children going on. And so for me, what that represents is financial security for the next generation is really important to me. So I've identified a value. Right. And so it's not about, you spent too much money without telling me. It's something else is more important to me right now. And I feel like you weren't listening to the thing that was important to me. And you're not going to be able to identify that when you're in that heightened emotional state. But you can start identifying the patterns yourself when you start tracking that.
- [23:24]
Joel
Well, it's often hard too to know why, which is like why I think therapy can be helpful. But it's hard to know why we're reacting similarly on repeat. Right. Over and over to similar inputs. So it might take somebody a while to be like, actually the reason I'm reacting negatively to the way we spend money in that, in that way is because I want to be thoughtful about saving up money for our kids future. Like that's, it's not like a straight line. And most people have a hard time deducing that that's kind of at the root of some of their actions or reactions.
- [23:57]
Dr. Sonja Luder
Absolutely. And you really pointed to something that is so important and that's the systemic relationships that are at play. It's never A to B. There's always some sort of circular A to B to C, back to A to D. And when you're dealing with families, it's impossible. Like Imagine all of our family members, all of our friends stacked up in this really neat domino pattern and I go to knock over the domino pattern and that has an influence on all of the other dominoes at play. So even though I might not be directly in contact with somebody within our family system, what they do with the money is definitely influencing me because it's influencing somebody else that I'm connected with and so on and so forth. And it's hard. There's no way that I could see how somebody else's behaviors are influencing me unless I'm willing to take the time and gather information and reflect upon what's going on.
- [25:09]
Joel
Yeah, so personal work that needs to be done. There's relational work that needs to be done across the spectrum. I have more I want to get to specifically about relationships and how we can have healthier relationships so that we can make more productive decisions with our money and have just better relationships in general. Get some more questions with you on that front right after this. We live in a fast paced era. It can be hard to keep up with incessant messages, impending deadlines and looming big decisions. As AI resources are chomping at the bit to help us, it's crucial that we choose wisely because every message counts. And sounding generic and rushed, it just doesn't cut it. Grammarly gives you one place to think, write and finish your work where you already write. It's loaded with agents that help you sound natural and engaging. That's right, yeah. Use AI to jumpstart and finish your work. I think it's great to get ideas down faster and move from draft to done with less friction. Use AI chat to brainstorm ideas, outline a solid draft and then refine it with context aware suggestions that fit what you're working on. 90% of professionals say Grammarly has saved them time writing and editing their work. I like how this is AI that works with you. It doesn't work over you. It almost acts as like a co laborer alongside you in a world of generic AI. Don't sound like everyone else With Grammarly you never will. Download Grammarly for free@Grammarly.com that's Grammarly.com run.
- [26:36]
iHeart Podcast Announcer
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- [27:09]
Ben Higgins
What do you do when the headlines don't explain what's happening inside of you? I'm Ben Higgins, and if you can hear me, is where culture meets the soul. A place for real conversation. Each episode I sit down with people from all walks of life, celebrities, thinkers, and everyday folks. And we go deeper than the polished story. We talk about what drives us, what shapes us, and what gives us hope. We get honest about the big stuff. Identity when you don't recognize yourself anymore. Loss that changes you. Purpose when success isn't enough. Peace when your mind won't slow down. Faith when it's complicated. Some guests have answers. Most are still figuring it out. If you've ever felt like there has to be more to the story, this show is for you. Listen to if you can hear me on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.
- [28:08]
Joel
All right, we're back. Still talking with Dr. Sonja Luder. And we're talking about healthy relationships, kind of talking about healthy individual relationship to money just a second ago, but let's specifically focus in on relationships and money just given kind of where we're at in the year. It's a fun topic to hit home on. And you have so much experience in this, Dr. Sonia. But like, can you maybe tell me what are the biggest predictors of financial conflict in a relationship?
- [28:37]
Dr. Sonja Luder
Yeah, this is funny coming from a woman, but this is science based and so we cannot refute the data that's out there. This is not my personal opinion. This is multiple people contributing to this. And it's when the wife makes more than the husband that is such a strong predictor of money conflict even today. And that absolutely blows my mind that we could have these expectations about what a man is supposed to do and earn and what a female is supposed to do and earn. Maybe I don't realize that that's what's happening. But if you look at the data and you're not asking people what's contributing to your money conflict, you're looking at all of the other things that are going on in their life. And the thing that comes up is women making more than the husband, more children 10.
- [29:33]
Joel
And that's an issue. Why? Why is that an issue for people? Is it because then it feels like the traditional choreography, sharing and kid toting system is turned on its head? Or like I Mean, that's kind of.
- [29:46]
Dr. Sonja Luder
The direction I was going with these expectations. So the data don't ask the why, we're just making assumptions from here. But what we do see quantitatively associated with this is that when women make more than their husbands, they are not doing less household work. They, they actually tend to do even more household work. And so I do think where you are going with that, with these traditional gender role expectations, if you will, that is the conflict at play. So the man is supposed to be the breadwinner, and so if he's not the breadwinner, then perhaps there's this guilt or some sort of emotional reaction for the woman that she's like, well, I better go ahead and do more of the household work because I'm messing up. I'm changing the dynamics of what is supposed to be. And I'm not saying that this is my personal belief or any one person's, but if you look at the data, that's what's happening. And again, this is current day issues. This is not 50 years ago. This is right now.
- [30:59]
Joel
That seems like that's a recipe for resentment, right? Like that if someone feels like they have to double down on home duties when they are also the primary breadwinner, that they're like, I feel like I'm holding up this family solo. Like, what's, what's going on here? We need more of a partnership. And, and I could see that kind of eroding some of the, you know, relational dynamic between, between a couple.
- [31:25]
Dr. Sonja Luder
Yeah, definitely. And, and when I've done clinical work, what I've seen is that couples don't necessarily see this pattern playing out because they got into the relationship with some sort of set of expectations that probably came from when they were growing up. But who knows, Maybe it was just convenient at that time that she did the laundry and he did the yard work. And that's what made sense at that point in time. And then as time progresses, maybe that set of expectations that they had at the beginning of their relationship doesn't always make sense later on down the road. And so I think that's why it's important to have these conversations. Like, maybe I used to manage the daily finances, but now it doesn't make as much sense for me. There's no reason for couples to naturally have these conversations unless you schedule it. Nobody wants to talk about jobs that we have to do within the house. And so being purposeful about tax time is a really ideal time because we're talking about money. Anyway. Valentine's Day also Super fun time to talk about money. But whatever the time frame is for people, for couples to schedule that time and be committed to it, I think is so important.
- [32:48]
Joel
How do you have that conversation without having a fight? Because I think some people hear you say Valentine's Day is a great time to have to bring that up. And they're like, oh, yeah, probably not. Maybe let's like avoid it so we can keep some peace, have a good time together, enjoy each other. And you're like telling them to have this conversation about really important issues that really could like drive a wedge in between them. Or at least that's how some people feel, I think, when they hear that. Yeah.
- [33:10]
Dr. Sonja Luder
And I would say back, why are you going towards the negative? Because this is also a really beautiful time to talk about your future together and your commitment together. And I think that's really what the framing is all about. And not focusing on what didn't work in the past, but what has worked and what we want to do more of. And that's from my therapy training. That is a really big thing. And I actually have another paper on that with the positive framing in the financial space. When you ask people to compare themselves, if they're doing better off than their peers, they will subsequently answer questions in a more positive view that they're using money for joy more frequently than if you ask, are you doing worse off than your peers? And it's just one word, different, better off, worse off. And that does make a difference in terms of how people continue the conversation. So I would say Valentine's Day is actually a perfect time because maybe you're more generous with your compliments than what you are normally. Fantastic. That's gonna set you up to have more positive conversations about the financial situation and your financial goals and what you're doing within the household that's working and always staying focused on the positive. And what's done is done. So let's leave that be. Yeah, but what do we see for the future and make it more of that future focused goal setting?
- [34:40]
Joel
They. People say opposites attract and, but that can, in the early days of a relationship, that can be really exciting. Like, oh, I'm, I'm kind of conservative. This other person's a little, little out there. It's kind of, it's kind of fun, right? Like, but, but specifically in the realm of money, that can also create tension. I mean, and the further along you get in a relationship, it's, it can also create tension on non monetary levels. But how should people think about that opposites attract mantra with how they handle money together. If you have, like I talked to somebody a while back about people being tightwads and spendthrifts and how, how do you match the, the reality that we both have completely different views on money. Some are like, let's, let's say 40% of our income, and the other one's like, we could die tomorrow. Let's, let's throw caution to the wind. Like, how do you manage that as a couple?
- [35:36]
Dr. Sonja Luder
Yeah, obviously it's a recipe for conflict, not disaster. But there is increased conflict when it is the spender and the saver. And you're exactly right. It's really exciting at the beginning of the relationship. And this is where those regular conversations come into play. As I said at the beginning of our conversation, people don't even know how to start the conversation. So we tend to go into it with a bit of stress. When we're stressed, we are reacting based off with very heightened emotions and based off of habit. And so it's not a good time, it's not a good recipe to engage in a conversation.
- [36:19]
Joel
So.
- [36:20]
Dr. Sonja Luder
So I already know that if you're a spender and I'm a saver, there's probably some tension associated with that. And so let's come to this in a more relaxed state of mind at a regularly scheduled time. I'm not going to spring it upon you that I'm mad at you because you spent too much and we agreed we were going to save 10% more this month. That's not helpful. But if we have a scheduled time to where that conversation is supposed to happen, that's when people can set their emotional mindset and come to it in a much more stable mentality. What you said at the beginning of the relationship, or you use that phrase, that is also a really key thing in the literature from my research, that the amount that a couple argues at the beginning of their relationship is even more predictive of later relationship satisfaction than how much they argue later on. Isn't that crazy? And even an increase in arguments not as important as how much they argued at the very beginning of their relationship. And I think that's pointing at some of these things that you're talking about that we didn't set the expectations of. Well, when we were dating, this was really fun to have the spender saver. Now that we're living in the same household, not quite as exciting because we've got bills to pay and these other things that need to take priority. And so that early conversation pattern setting is super crucial. It doesn't mean if you've been in a relationship for a long time, all hope is lost. Start now. Earlier you start, the better.
- [38:07]
Joel
Gonna take some intentionality is. And I like that you said like, yeah, having it on the calendar, having it. Having a regular time where you talk about this so that you don't have to bring it up in the heat of the moment because it doesn't feel like there's another set aside place and space to have that conversation. If it's there, then you can address the issue on the preordained time. Right? Exactly. In your opinion, is there like a right amount of financial transparency and communication or do you feel like every relationship is different? Should and maybe like, as you get more in tune with your partner, can you reduce the number of or just maybe shorten the time span that it takes to have those money dates or whatever? What does that look like? And what's your advice for people?
- [38:53]
Dr. Sonja Luder
I will say with 100% certainty that relationship satisfaction is higher. The more joint accounts couples, half. That's not my research, Scott Rick's research. It's really fantastic stuff. You can't have joint accounts without having full transparency. So I would make the assumption that full transparency is the key to high relationship satisfaction because you can't be hiding anything and it creates the opportunity for forced conversations about your finances. Because I can't be doing my own thing and you doing your own thing from the same account. We've got to at least have some sort of conversation about what's going on to make sure that there's money in the account, to do the things that are necessary to live and to do the things that we want to do. And so I am a strong proponent of full transparency. I do think that couples should have the trust to be able to spend what they want to spend without having to check in with every purchase, though. And people always ask me what the magic number is. Well, how much can I spend without telling my partner? I don't know. That's for you and your partner to actually talk about and have the conversation. It could be $5, it could be $500, it could be $50,000. It's very relationship specific, but you've got to have that conversation with one another. So I don't think that transparency is the same as asking permission. I think it's a matter of we all need to know what's going on and feel comfortable with what's going on.
- [40:39]
Joel
Do you think it's more important to have shared financial goals or shared Financial values. And which one of those is maybe more predictive of long term relationship success is like we view things the same way or it's like we're trying to go to the same place.
- [40:55]
Dr. Sonja Luder
Definitely the values.
- [40:56]
Joel
Values.
- [40:57]
Dr. Sonja Luder
If we're not aligned on values, there's no way the goals are gonna come to be.
- [41:01]
Joel
Okay. And then let's say sometimes there's also just a different risk tolerance down in couples. Right. I know we heard from a listener recently who said, you know what, the financial advisor, like I wouldn't want to hire one. I feel like I'm good, but that's the way I keep our marriage happy. Like this is something. And I just feel like if the stock market, you know, if we had a bear market next year, that there's chance that that could, if we have an advisor, hey, it's okay. Like we can weather it because there's somebody you know, on, on our side and that, that my spouse trusts. But if I'm the one in control and we have a bear market, I might take the blame. So how do you think about third parties involvement in your finances and how that can help or maybe even hurt your relational satisfaction?
- [41:51]
Dr. Sonja Luder
Both people have to feel comfortable with this person. And it goes back to the transparency. If I'm not willing to be transparent with a third party, it is going to create a bit of a triangle situation to where the person who feels like they can trust and be transparent with this person, they're getting a coalition to go against my partner because they're not having that same sort of rapport and trust with this third person. In general, that third person can be super helpful. And financial advisors absolutely play a role in couples relationship satisfaction. I looked at that across multiple data sets, multiple wealth and income levels, and it stays consistent throughout that when a couple works with a financial advisor, not only are they more satisfied with their financial situation, they're more satisfied in their relationship. And I think it's because that third person one forces us to have the conversation and we're probably gonna have a fairly calm conversation because we're probably not gonna go in a full on fight in front of a third person. Unless it's a therapist. Then you might. That's true, but in general, but in general they provide that safe space to say what's on your mind and have the scheduled conversations. And we all live busy lives and that time has been carved aside to talk about our money. And that's a beautiful time to do it.
- [43:22]
Joel
You mentioned too the joint bank accounts and I've seen those Studies, too. And it certainly seems like that's a really important predictor of relational success. And financial infidelity is one of those things that could be a massive problem. Like, do you think financial infidelity, where someone is maybe spending money in a way their partner has no idea about, opening up a credit card in their own name, racking up debt, or bringing that into a relationship that they're just not being honest about. Is that on par with sexual infidelity? And can that have the the same ultimate ramifications?
- [43:58]
Dr. Sonja Luder
Yes, because it's not about the money. Right. There's something else going on there that they're spending the money on or they feel like they can't have the conversation about it.
- [44:09]
Joel
And the same is true. Right. Of sexual infidelity, oftentimes it's not about the one act. It's about, how did we get drift so far apart that this felt like it was okay?
- [44:18]
Dr. Sonja Luder
Precisely. And so there's no way that if you discover this as a financial advisor, you're going to be prepared to guide a couple through that. That's why we have the financial therapist or the therapist to have those conversations. But I would say if you, if you feel like you are in that situation, let's not be accusatory. Let's increase our financial conversations and come together and be like, okay, what are we happy about? And how can we do more of those things that we're happy about?
- [44:47]
Joel
All right, we got more to get to, including, I want to talk about shame and the role that it plays in our finances and how we might be able to undo some of the nefarious effects. We'll talk about that and more in just a sec.
- [45:04]
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- [45:37]
Ben Higgins
What do you do when the headlines don't explain what's happening inside of you? I'm Ben Higgins, and if you can hear me is where culture meets the soul. A place for real conversation. Each episode, I sit down with people from all walks of life. Celebrities, thinkers, and everyday folks. And we go deeper than the polished story. We talk about what drives us, what shapes us, and what gives us hope. We get honest about the big stuff. Identity when you don't recognize yourself anymore. Loss that changes you. Purpose when success isn't enough. Peace when your mind won't slow down. Faith when it's complicated. Some guests have answers. Most are still figuring it out. If you've ever felt like there has to be more to the story, this show is for you. Listen to if you can hear me on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.
- [46:37]
Joel
We're talking with Dr. Sonja Luder. Sonia, I want to. I want to talk about shame. I feel like shame is one of the most underrated forces in the universe, and it is something that we just don't talk about very much, probably because we're ashamed to talk about it. But, like, we tend to act and react so often out of the impulse of shame, whether it's a past money mistake that we've made and it just, like, it just irritates us when we think about it. But, like, we haven't really been forthcoming with it. And so it just, it eats at. It eats away at us from the inside. What advice do you have for shining a light on the shame that might be driving our money habits and some of the communication that we do and have around money?
- [47:19]
Dr. Sonja Luder
Yeah. If you feel shame, it's normal. And you're just like everybody else. Even people who are supposedly good with money probably have some sort of negative feeling or negative memory associated with money because we're not taught to talk about it. And just think about a dinner party. And if somebody asked you, oh, what sort of medications are you on? People would definitely tell you that information. Maybe not quickly, but somebody would say it, and then everybody else would say, and it's not that shaming to talk about those things. It's like, well, physical health is a part of life, and I'm getting older and this is what's happened. And that's just kind of normal or not looked down upon necessarily to have those types of conversations. But if you were sitting around the same dinner party and somebody said, well, how much money do you have in your savings account this year? Not a single person is going to speak up to that.
- [48:20]
Joel
Crickets.
- [48:21]
Dr. Sonja Luder
Yeah.
- [48:23]
Joel
Or what's the worst money mistake you've made? And they're like, I have to go.
- [48:27]
Dr. Sonja Luder
No, thank you.
- [48:28]
Joel
Yeah, yeah.
- [48:29]
Dr. Sonja Luder
But it doesn't have to be that way. Right.
- [48:31]
Joel
And.
- [48:32]
Dr. Sonja Luder
And what you see is very rarely reality. And electronics has made this so much easier for us to believe that what we see is true when in reality it's not. So I would say again, it goes back to self awareness that when you hear your friends talking about their vacations or you see their post about these really beautiful things that they have.
- [48:57]
iHeart Podcast Announcer
There.
- [48:57]
Dr. Sonja Luder
Might be some truth to that. And there's probably alternative truths that are not as obvious from that one snapshot. And so being okay with not knowing everybody's information and not making assumptions about everybody's information. That comparison game gets us into trouble every time. And that's where a lot of that shame comes from, is we're comparing ourselves to where we think we should be. We're comparing ourselves to our neighbors, to our friends. And so just taking a step back and practicing gratitude of what you do have and how you're happy with the direction that you're going. And if you're not happy with the direction that you're going, take steps to make it better for you. Not compared to somebody else, but for you. What would bring you closer to your values?
- [49:50]
Joel
I think therapy is, I. It's becoming obviously far more normalized in our culture. And I think there's a lot of good to that there. There are also a lot of people listening who are like, it's so expensive. Like, I tried to hire a therapist. It's like $170 an hour. Am I supposed to go once a week? That's like a car payment. So do you, do you have any suggestions for somebody who's like, man, I really think I could benefit from doing some. A deep dive with a therapist. What are maybe some ways that I could start to do some of that work internally and have a better emotional understanding of how I handle how and why I handle my money the way I do without seeing a professional?
- [50:29]
Dr. Sonja Luder
Yeah, completely for free. You can start doing work right now. And part of that is practicing gratitude. So at the end of each day, just write down one thing on a piece of paper in your phone app. There's even app free apps you can download for gratitude journals. Write down one thing that you're grateful for and you're going to see measurable improvement if you do that consistently on pretty much every area of your life. Feel happier about your finances, you are physically healthier if you do this on a regular basis, relationships are happier, et cetera, et cetera. And it's all totally free to do that. You don't need to pay a therapist. You don't need to dig into your past. It's just right now Today, what am I most grateful for?
- [51:18]
Joel
And that's such a simple suggestion, but it has such, like, power behind it. Right. I think it's, it's. It's something that people might be like, oh, okay. I mean, what else, though? Like, give me something. Give me something harder or news I can use or something. But, like, there is something so powerful about gratitude, and we just underestimate what, what it can do for us.
- [51:39]
Dr. Sonja Luder
Yeah.
- [51:39]
Joel
I'm curious, too, Specifically, since, you know, almost Valentine's Day, talking to couples, you wrote a book called Love and Money, and you offered guided exercise for couples to improve their financial well being, can you share one or two of the things you found to be most effective? And yes, specifically for couples who are listening and they're like, I want to have a good conversation. Like, I want to start making progress. And Dr. Sonia said that Valentine's Day was a. Was a good time to get started. So, like, do you have any, like, good prompts for them?
- [52:08]
Dr. Sonja Luder
Yeah, there's a cost associated with the book, but it's so low cost, like a fraction of one conversation with a therapist. So good suggestion. The Values Bullseye is probably my absolute most favorite activity because it sets the stage for everything else to come after that. So with the Values Bullseye, what we see happening is people go through an assessment to identify what their values are, if they don't already know. So maybe it's financial security, maybe it's time with family, maybe it's physical health. And then once we identify what those values are, we put them on a bullseye. If you can imagine a target. And the thing that's most central to everything else, we put that right in the middle. And then we go out with three or four, five values that we have. And then we come together as a couple and identify where are we aligned or maybe where are we aligned? Little bit different. And how can we make a combined bullseye that reflects both of our values in a way that we are, that we feel comfortable with as a team, together? And then what we can start doing is we write out sticky notes of our financial goals or what we're doing with our money right now. So Maybe we're spending $500 a month on some sort of membership that not aligned with any of those values that we just wrote down. So we're not going to get rid of it right now, but we're going to put that goal off to the side. We're going to do this with all of our different goals and current spending that we're doing, and it's a really nice visual activity to start rearranging how you're spending your money and resources and time and how you might want to think about some of those things differently.
- [53:56]
Joel
I love that. And then, yeah, it's so much easier to shift spending around when it's not for let's correct the mistake we've made of things or it's but when it's a positive association, it's like, here's our values. Our spending doesn't currently reflect that. Let's make our spending more reflect our values. I think that's beautiful. That's a great place to start. Dr. Sonia, thank you so much for joining me. Where can how do money listeners find out more about you and what you're up to?
- [54:21]
Dr. Sonja Luder
Yep. FirstandLast Name.com Sonjaluder.com Lovely.
- [54:25]
Joel
We'll put it to see you put it in the show notes up on our site as well. Thank you so much for joining me today.
- [54:29]
Dr. Sonja Luder
Thanks, Joel.
- [54:30]
Joel
All right. So glad I was able to have Dr. Sonia on today to talk about just kind of the emotional underbelly of money and how we think about it and just love starting off talking about individually what that looks like, but then really getting into the relational dynamics and, and money is it's typically like Dr. Sonia said, there's something else going on under the surface. Right. Those money arguments, they're never just about money. It's about misaligned values or it's about things that we haven't come to grips with individually. And there's just so much ability for us to make progress in our finances as a family, as a couple, as an individual, when we do some of that work and, and when we're willing to open up the lines of communication together. So that was one of my big takeaways from this conversation, was that you have to make it regular and you have to put it on the calendar other otherwise it's going to come out sideways. Right. So it's going to come out in the heat of the moment or at an inopportune time and you're going to make that accusatory finger wagging comment where it's like, hey, you didn't hold up your end of the bargain, you spent more than you were supposed to, you let the budget get out of control this month. And if it's in a predefined time and space, it's just easier to have that conversation. It's like, listen, I'm not happy right now, but we got that money date on the calendar for Monday. We can Just talk about it then. And also, I think one of the things that she alluded to on multiple occasions during this conversation was that you should phrase things positively. And when you phrase things positively, it just hits differently. And I think so often when we feel like our finances are out of control and that our relationship with money together as a couple, as a unit isn't running on all cylinders, it's really easy to start playing the blame game and to start saying things in a way that gets the way you feel across to your partner, but not in a way that's going to lead to positive action or good resolution. And I think she talked about just the one word difference in that survey question and how it made people respond differently. And I think that's true of how we talk to each other during those money dates or as we're kind of trying to come up with what our common money values are, we can talk about the negatives, but we're likely to get worse outcomes and crappier responses. And yet if we do the take the opposite route and we say, let's think about what the future could look like, what sort of money goals do we have together? Like, I love that talking about the shared values then makes it so much easier to eradicate the spending and maybe some of the misaligned ways that we are, like making money choices, it's so much easier to do that. Once you've had that values conversation and you have a positive look outlook going forward, then you can go back to the spending and be like, all right, that means, like, clearly based on our conversation, we're going to cut here, here, and here, right? Great. And then guess what? We get to funnel that money positively into these other directions that both of us have just agreed that we care about deeply. So doing some of that work, I think can make a big difference in our ability to make money progress and just feel like we're on the same page, like we're communicating effectively with our partner, with our spouse, with our significant other. So, yeah, just here's hoping that we can all avoid money conflict this Valentine's Day. Enjoy the person who's in our lives, if you have one, and that you can have better money conversations using some of the advice that Dr. Sonia gave today. Thank you as always, for joining. We'll put links in the show, notes to Dr. Sonia's website, and some of the resources that we mentioned today on the podcast. Until next time, Best Friend out.
- [58:48]
Dr. Sonja Luder
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