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- [00:00]
Joel
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- [00:19]
Matt
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- [00:36]
Capital One
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- [01:08]
Matt
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- [01:30]
Joel
By earning cash back rewards with Colgate Palmolive rewards available while supplies last. Limit Supply US Only January 1, 2025 through March 31, 2025 for full terms, visit cprewards.com welcome to how to Money. I'm Joel.
- [01:46]
Matt
And I am Matt.
- [01:47]
Joel
And today we're talking the Art of the Sabbatical with Katie North.
- [02:09]
Matt
Yeah, so when most folks hear the word sabbatical, I think their mind probably goes to like a professor who's earned tenure at a prestigious university who's going to use that time to write a really interesting book. Or maybe your values are more Judeo Christian based. And so maybe you think of a period of rest after seven years, you think of that levitical prescription. And while that might be accurate for some folks, I think our guest today would say that sabbaticals don't have to be that serious or that formal. But on the other hand, they're also not just an extended vacation where you're sipping pina coladas on the beach. We are joined by CFP and investment advisor Katie North. She is the author of the Art of the Sabbatical. And she's going to share why taking a sabbatical, why it might be more of a reality for everyone who's listening today, not just for the elite class. Katie, thank you so much for taking the time to speak with us today.
- [03:09]
Katie North
Yeah, thanks for having me.
- [03:10]
Joel
Katie, the first question we ask everyone who comes on the show is, what do you like to spend money on? And. And Matt and I, we're drinking a nice craft beer here. That's kind of something we like to splurge on. But hey, it's okay. Cause we're still saving and investing for the future. Do you have something like that in your life?
- [03:26]
Katie North
I love a good spa day. I prioritize having a monthly massage, for sure. And so that's definitely something that is important to me.
- [03:35]
Matt
I feel like, Joel, you have experimented with the idea of maybe joining like one of the, like, membership sort of. Sort of clubs. Have you? Or is that something that.
- [03:43]
Joel
No, I do like to get massages. And I think in an ideal world, I would do what Katie does, and I'd once. At least once a month. But I have not made that as regular as I'd like to.
- [03:51]
Matt
Is this somebody that comes to your house, Kate? Your house, Katie, or is this somewhere that you go. Yes. Okay.
- [03:56]
Katie North
Yeah, no, she comes to my house. It's very nice. She's excellent. Does the really nice deep tissue. It's perfect.
- [04:03]
Joel
Are you going 60 minutes or 90 minutes? I feel like you gotta go 90, am I wrong?
- [04:07]
Katie North
90 minutes when you're doing the deep tissue.
- [04:09]
Matt
That's right.
- [04:09]
Katie North
You gotta do it.
- [04:10]
Joel
If you're getting all the. You're making it happen anyway. Just go full 90.
- [04:14]
Matt
I'm not gonna lie. I feel relaxed just listening to you talk about this.
- [04:17]
Joel
Katie, I will say for cheap person out there, there are places that specialize in feet. And there's a place that my wife and I like to go to. We don't go very often, but they do feet. And then they'll finish on like the head, neck and shoulders. And I swear for like an hour, you pay 30 bucks or something like that. It's minimally expensive. I don't know if they exist everywhere, but we have them in our town at least.
- [04:43]
Matt
Let's get. Let's pivot to some articles. Katie, can you like, I guess, basically define a sabbatical? Like, what is it and why are you so keen on them that you wrote a book about them?
- [04:54]
Katie North
Yeah, so I'm a sabbatical advocate by accident. I Took a sabbatical back in 2015, and I did not know then how much of a transformative experience it was going to be for me. I actually hold it up as one of the most pivotal and meaningful times in my life. And it really gave me the courage and the confidence to. To launch my financial planning business, which is now almost 10 years old. I think of a sabbatical, it doesn't have to be a specific amount of time or do a specific thing like travel the world. It's really just an intentional break from work. And most of the time, I would say your first sabbatical is often about burnout recovery. That was certainly my M.O. and what I needed was burnout recovery time. But there are a lot of people out there who are doing sabbaticals with some sort of frequency in their lives, like every few years or. I've talked to a lot of people who are offering kind of like living their life more like a sabbatical. And so they're not necessarily having to take direct time off from work, but they're incorporating, reset and recharge time into their days and weeks so that they're not, you know, ultimately burning themselves out to a point where they need to take an extended break from work. So there's a lot of ways that this can look. And, you know, everyone's kind of unique in how they approach it.
- [06:16]
Joel
So talk to us about how your first sabbatical came about and why do you credit that time with essentially the fruition of the business that you run?
- [06:26]
Katie North
Yeah, so at the time of my life, I was finishing up my MBA program. I was doing that part time while also working full time. And my job at the time had me going back and forth between D.C. york and. So it was a lot of travel, it was a lot of always on energy. And I think towards the end of my mba, I started realizing the path that might be laid out for me at my current job was not. There wasn't like a career ladder to grow on. My company called it a rock wall. And so they sort of. It didn't feel like there was a lot of support in terms of what they were going to offer me after I finished this big, big to do like getting another degree sort of a.
- [07:10]
Joel
Thing, you had to like free solo. Alex Honnold that job.
- [07:14]
Katie North
Yeah. And so, you know, I was faced with. It's like I had to move to New York or nothing. Like that was that that was the only opportunity that existed for me. And so I just started looking at that and also feeling Just the overwhelm of, you know, what the culmination of all this meant, and felt really burned out. I mean, I. I think I was getting sick quite often. I was pretty. Just sort of mad and upset a lot. Like, little things would sort of set me off. And I knew that really the only way to stop that spinning in my head was just to stop it all and take a break. And I actually made the decision to do this pretty much on a whim. Like, I walked in one morning and I was really upset about something that had happened the day before. And I said, you know what? I just cannot do this anymore. I just can't. And so I put in my notice. And this happens at a lot of corporate jobs where they sort of, when you decide to leave, they sort of treat it like they make you feel like you're getting fired. So it's like I basically put in my notice, and within an hour, you know, HR was doing their exit interview with me. They didn't want to have me stay on for two weeks because when you work for a global news organization like I was, they don't want people to, like, publish bogus headlines on the way out and things like that. So I knew that going in, but it's still was sort of like a gut punch, you know, like, I'm the one doing this, and you guys are making me feel like I'm the one getting fired. But, you know, that's sort of an aside, I think. You know, some people may not have that experience just depending on where they are working. But, yeah, so I sat that day, I sat in the park with a friend, and we just sort of daydreamed about, like, you know, what I could do. And I didn't have a plan. I literally just dropped everything and stopped without much of a plan at all. And. And so that was the start of kind of my reset.
- [09:06]
Matt
Okay, so one of the things that you said a little bit ago, you mentioned too, how some folks incorporate more of, like, a rhythm of daily or even sort of weekly rests or times of restoration. Talk about that. Like, what about just actually working less instead of taking this massive extended time off? Like, what if someone was able to shift from working 55 hours a week down to 30 hours a week? Like, could that have a similar impact? Or do you think that folks need this extended, hardcore, total absence of work in their lives?
- [09:40]
Katie North
You know, I think it depends on the person. I think for me, if I had just found another job, maybe one that didn't require as many hours. I don't think I would have learned the lessons I needed to learn about who I am when I'm not working and about how I was using busyness to sort of fuel like self esteem. Honestly, in me, busyness and achievement were sort of fueling self esteem for me. And that was the unhealthy part for me, that if I had just kept working or pivoted, I don't think I would have learned those lessons. But not everybody. Maybe there's a lot of people out there who maybe don't need to learn those lessons, hopefully. And certainly spending some time just reevaluating where work is in your life and the priority that you place in your life is a good way to get some more balance back. And perhaps you can do it without having to take the full time off like I did. I took eight, nine months off.
- [10:37]
Joel
Wow. Yeah, That's a long time. Do you think that sabbaticals, like you talked about your work culture and I mean, do you think they're more necessary in 2025 than they were, let's say, decades ago because of the nature of work and maybe the invasiveness? I mean, I think about even laws in Australia, right, to tamp down on employers being able to reach employees after hours. And sometimes it does feel like, you know, what it how many hours am I actually working in a week? It's hard to even come up with a number because it feels like work is all encompassing. I'm not saying that like personally, but I think a lot of people feel that way. So do you think it's, I don't know, sabbaticals are more necessary these days because of the invasive nature of work?
- [11:22]
Katie North
Yeah, I mean, I think a couple of things are happening, right? Like we've moved almost to a fully knowledge based workforce. Like we do knowledge based work. We're not making widgets and producing items where it's thought work. And it takes a lot out of us. It's about creativity, it's about management of people, it's about thought leadership and writing. And I think COVID 19 helped crystallize what's most important for people. And, you know, working 60 plus hours for a company that might go through downsizing and lay us off next year is not it. Especially when you might be able to solve problems at work in your dreams, literally, because you take the time and rest and your brain says, oh, I've got the solution. But you don't get credit for that. When you're not sitting at your desk with your green light on your teams or on Your zoom. Right. And so I think more and more of us now just in these times are exploring alternative work arrangements. Not just physical location and the flexibility of where we work, but how we utilize time off and where we're working and how on we have to be while we're working, depending on the type of role that we have. And this flexibility and this freedom is almost being held up as more valuable than even the salary or the title or how many people you manage. This flexibility is kind of like the new importance that we're seeing in work. And yeah, I think we're all gonna need a lot more time off in the future just based on the nature of how work is and this whole idea of having metrics at work like key performance indicators, oftentimes they are fully based on what once was widget making, like making cars on a line. At Ford, we created all these efficiency devices for managing employees and it's, it's hard to apply that to the knowledge based economy, but yet companies are trying to. And that tends to help us feel like we're a lot less human and there's no room for the creativity, which can't often be done on quite the same timeline that companies want it to be done on.
- [13:33]
Matt
All right, so tell me what makes a sabbatical impactful? Like you talked about for you? I guess your initial or your first experience with it was to recover from some burnout, but what are some of the other benefits to that folks are able to receive? Like from taking a sabbatical, from taking some time off. And I guess how can folks do that efficiently? Like how can folks get the most bang for their buck as they're trying to reap the rewards and the benefits from that sabbatical.
- [14:02]
Katie North
Yeah, I mean, I think, you know, sabbaticals aren't just some glorified glitz and glam break. You know, there's a lot that you can do or maybe more importantly not.
- [14:11]
Matt
Yeah, it's not just spa days where you're getting your back rush.
- [14:15]
Katie North
Yeah, well, on a work break, you know, I think resting and recharging is the primary goal and the primary focus. You know, a lot of people tend to, especially if it's their first sabbatical, they maybe they would have a tendency to try to busy your way through the work break. You know, if you have several weeks off in a row, you might think, well, there's all these things, these projects, these, the stuff around the house that I haven't been able to do because I've been working so much. Maybe I should just do X, Y and Z and this and that and the other. And that can be a dangerous route because it starts to feel a lot more like work when you've got this long to do list while on sabbatical. And so I'm often advocating for people to do less while on their work break, but the main goal is still helpful. It's still helpful to have a main purpose or a goal while you're on break. And I've certainly spoke with and coached a lot of people who've done lots of awesome things while on their work break. Finishing up a dissertation, taking stock of what they want in their career, maybe helping out an ailing family member, finding ways to practice what eventual retirement would actually look like can be a really valuable way to spend time. Other people cross train or volunteer, so they might learn new skills that they've always wanted to learn, do something kind of creative or volunteer in a way that is meaningful or impactful for them. And so there's just lots of things other than the normal, like, I'm going to take a sabbatical and travel the world kind of approach that you might see on social media.
- [15:48]
Joel
Well, and with the traveling the world approach, you're talking about reducing your income, increasing your expenses.
- [15:54]
Matt
That's the whole other side of things that we'll probably get to later on in the episode.
- [15:59]
Joel
Might be harder to have a longer sabbatical if you're trying to jet set around the world. What if you have a partner, you're married, you have kids, how do you think about. I'm just trying to mentally think through. If I go home tonight and at dinner, I'm like, honey, take it a sabbatical and how that conversation goes down. And she's like, wait, you want me to keep going to work? How's this gonna function? How would you approach that conversation? And I don't know, should husband and wife or married couples, should they say, let's overlap, let's both take time off together, or should we do it separately?
- [16:33]
Katie North
Yeah, I mean, I wrote a whole chapter on this in my book, how to Support a Spouse on a Sabbatical, because my spouse and I also looked at that and kind of navigated it. He did not take a sabbatical when I took mine. And then later he took a sabbatical and I did not. And that worked for us. It was just fine. But for other people, you may want to try to figure out a way to coordinate it, especially if you've got kids and you want to travel with your kids. And make sure that everybody can enjoy themselves. And certainly everybody's going to be a little bit different. But I think the prime directive here is to really open up the communication. Not just on the oh, what are we going to do? Front, or who's going to do what front, but also just in the sort of money anxiety front. Because you're bound to, in a couple, there's bound to be one person who's sort of the money anxious person versus the person who's like, yeah, we'll figure it out, you know, and it's going to be more important, even more important, I think, while on sabbatical to get on the same page and do frequent money check ins. So you can, as you see money dwindling intentionally, because that's the purpose for the money, is to spend it on giving yourself a work break. As you see that money dwindling, it doesn't create this undue anxiety and pressure. Cause the worst thing that can happen is for the spouse who is continuing to work to put undue pressure on the person who's on sabbatical, either to get another job, to get off their butt and do xyz or, you know, to take them away from the journey that they are on themselves. Right, sure. And it's so tempting, right? I mean, when my husband went on work break, he was also burned out and literally, you know, stuff had been languishing around the house, little projects and things. And I, you know, I felt like I wanted him to do some of that stuff. And so I was really trying to get him to do it. And he basically told me, he's like, you know what? This is too much pressure for me. And I was like, you know what, actually, thanks for being honest about it. And I'm gonna let go of this a little bit and let go of the honeydew stuff and let you discover in your own way what this is gonna look like for you. But, you know, it's like those conversations happen every day among couples. And this navigation, it becomes even more complicated when one continues to work and the other doesn't.
- [18:55]
Joel
What, what was the sabbatical like for your husband? Were there any eureka moments or what did he walk away from that experience with?
- [19:02]
Katie North
You know, his big thing was he knew, he thought like this time off was just going to be so luxurious and recharging, but he actually found that he needed more kind of interaction with people than he was. He maybe thought because he's an introvert. And so his big discovery was like, you know, I don't know If I'm ever going to fully retire, retire, I may always want to be engaged in some form or fashion with work or mentorship or teaching. And so he, you know, that's kind of his big been his big focus post sabbatical is figuring out how he can incorporate some more of that into his work life. He's a computer science person, a software developer, so there's the production of software. That is, he's his primary focus. But there's a lot now that he's been in his career a while, it's like this mentorship piece has bubbled up as an important thing for him.
- [19:57]
Matt
That's pretty cool. Yeah. And I guess it depends on the couple as to whether or not you coordinate those sabbaticals to where, depending on what your goals are. Right. Like you said, it's hard to, I don't know, maybe it's not too hard to go on some world, some world travel by yourself. Depends on the couple. But I could also see where coordinating that so that you are able to take that time off together, how there's a benefit there. But then on the opposite end of the spectrum, to be able to alternate if you are maybe a little more money anxious and you're a little concerned about having a flow of money coming in, I think that could make a whole lot of sense as well. But you kind of mentioning your husband and sort of what he found he needed when it comes to just other people talk about how important it is to gather support. You talk about that in your book because not everyone in your social circle is going to understand when you tell them, hey, I'm looking to take some time off. There's a difference between maybe your friends at work versus someone who is going to be more supportive, I guess, of something like a sabbatical. Can you talk about that? Yeah.
- [20:56]
Katie North
I mean, I think there's all kinds of constituencies you almost have to think about when you make an announcements like this. You know, there's your co workers, there's your family, like your extended family, as well as your immediate family and your friends. Right. And it's going to be really surprising who is supportive and who's not. I mean, I know for me, you know, I had some really good friends that I. They sort of raised their eyebrows at me, like, are you sure you're gonna do this? And it was sort of gut wrenching, like, what? I don't understand why you're not supporting me here. Right. And then I had other folks tell me stories of going on break and one person in particular, who was gonna take care of her kids for a little while. And she immediately felt like she got judged, you know, for that decision. And so there's a lot of negativity on the idea of taking time off, because a lot of times it's still associated with something wrong. Like there's something wrong. So therefore you have to take time off. Therefore, you know, there's something shameful about this. I spoke to a CEO of a nonprofit this week who took a sabbatical over the summer, and she was ashamed to tell her board what the plan was. And this was an employee, like a sponsored sabbatical from the. From the company. But she was still ashamed to make an announcement because of this sort of deep seated pressure or fear of, like, what are people think, I'm just gonna be slacking? Like, what's the deal here? So, you know, I think in order to combat this, first of all, you gotta know that this is, this is what you're up against. But two is to kind of push through some of those fears and be courageous to. To start talking maybe more publicly about it. Consider making a post and just kind of getting out in front of it, explaining what it is that you're gonna do and why you're gonna do it. And I think over time, a lot of that, the chorus of those posts will help kind of raise awareness that this is a valid way to not just like, get back more time and energy in your life, but to create new growth and pivot and maybe even change and wealth in your life in a way that you wouldn't have had the opportunity if you just kept working. We're still pushing back against decades and generations of work, work, work, until essentially you die or get sick. Right?
- [23:13]
Joel
Yeah.
- [23:14]
Katie North
And so, you know, there's a lot there, but I think I blame the puritans. Right? Yeah, yeah. This puritanical view. Right. But I think it is important to find people or lean on people who you are finding that are supportive. And nowadays there are more groups than ever. There's Facebook support groups for people taking sabbaticals. There's more and more podcasts, I think, that are talking about this sort of thing. So there are ways to get ideas and feel like you're not just alone in the world doing something wild and crazy and avant garde. And so it is important to seek some of that stuff out and find maybe more like minded people because you are gonna get some raised eyebrows no matter what, and it's gonna be a surprise at who those people are. I would say.
- [24:02]
Joel
Yeah. I believe it. There's gonna be some hard conversations you're gonna have to be ready for. And I think you're gonna have to be convinced of the value of taking that sabbatical in advance so that you can have those conversations without, I guess, feeling super, super judged. We've got more questions we wanna get to with you, Katie, including, like, can everyone actually take a sabbatical? And maybe, like, some of the financial realities behind that. It feels like we have to save for retirement and save for sabbatical. How are we going to do both? We'll talk about that right after this. Let's talk retirement for a second. To me, it feels like it's getting harder for people to reach their goals for the future. We hear about inflation, rate hikes, the changing market. Are we even saving enough? And things keep changing, right? And here is where Fidelity comes in. Whether you're saving for retirement or close to living in it, Fidelity can help you get where you want to go, no matter your path or what happens along the way.
- [24:58]
Matt
Yeah, but how? Well, they'll help you to create a free, personalized plan that adapts as your priorities change. They'll also show you what's called timely insights. These are small tips on ways to save and invest to help meet your goals. And you can monitor your plans so you can stay on target. The future's coming, and so is retirement. Get ready to take it on@fidelity.com TakeOn.
- [25:21]
Joel
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- [25:32]
Matt
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- [25:58]
Joel
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- [26:20]
Katie North
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- [26:20]
Matt
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- [26:54]
Capital One
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- [27:26]
Joel
What does the future hold for business? Ask nine experts and you'll get 10 answers. Will we have another bull market in 2025 or we're going to get a bear market? What about inflation? Will it continue to calm or will higher prices remain sticky? Wouldn't it be cool if someone could invent a crystal ball that would give us some foresight?
- [27:43]
Matt
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- [28:29]
Joel
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- [28:44]
Matt
We are back from the break again speaking with Katie North. And right before the break, Katie, you mentioned like that CEO and she was afraid to bring it up to the board. And this was a policy like you mentioned, that was already in place. It seems like there are more employers out there who are willing to talk about sabbaticals these days. So you know folks, they don't even have to quit their jobs in order to pull this off. Can you maybe share some different examples of different companies out there and some of the programs that they're offering?
- [29:13]
Katie North
Yeah, so it is a, it's a benefit for sure. The Society for Human Resource Management, which is a global HR organization, did a study and they found that there is like more than 400 companies that just are in their kind of world of reference that are offering some form of sabbatical program, whether paid or unpaid. And believe it or not, I've talked to people who did not know their own employer had this as a benefit. And so your first line, if this is something that you're interested in doing, is to go into your HR manuals and examine whether this is an existing program or not at your organization. And if it is, start to talk with not just HR but your boss and your boss's boss probably to come up with a scenario and a solution for who's going to take over your work while you're gone and how it's all going to work out. The most successful companies that have this program in place are the ones who create a multi level communication plan that is both internal and external client facing. They do a big job of PR style, promoting it. And it's a benefit to the company too because it becomes a, a nice place to work. Like this benefit exists and it's a cool thing that's being offered. And so they can get miles out of that from a PR perspective too, if everybody's communicating in advance. And then there's also this idea of creating a return to work kind of routine for the people who've taken sabbaticals and what it's like to return to work and realize, well, somebody else did my job while I was gone, now what, what does that mean? Like I'm worthless. And so there's that kind of phenomenon that also happens. And so it's really important to kind of have a return to work transition as well set up. And what that might look like is simply just sharing a little bit about what the sabbatical was like, what it meant for the employee and maybe what they learned or what they still want to do or what they want to maybe transition off their plate, even post sabbatical, and what new things they may want to take on. It's a unique stress testing opportunity for organizations, no question.
- [31:28]
Joel
If there's no policy on the books, like you thumb through the HR manual and there's no sort of, yeah, hey, here's the, you know, sabbatical reality. If you've been here a certain number of years, you get this many weeks off of paid leave or half pay or something like that, is it still something you can ask for? Is, have you seen people successfully negotiate with their employer to say, listen, this is. I feel like this is in the cards for me. I need it to happen, I would quit otherwise. Should I just ask and see what happens?
- [31:55]
Katie North
Absolutely ask. I've had several people that I've talked to. Some of their stories are featured in the book that they just had the courage to ask. And one person was given a year off, unpaid, to work on a creative project, traveling around the globe and kind of doing a documentary. And their employer was like, yep, return in a year, your job will be here. And it was a total surprise to her because she thought for sure they wouldn't go for it at all. And so you could also pitch it kind of like a pilot program, like, hey, let me be the guinea pig. I want to. This is an important benefit. Here's all the reasons and the research behind it. Let me be the guinea pig. Let's figure this out and develop the policies and procedures using me as the test case for it. And in those cases, I think it's also really important to get it in writing, make sure everybody's on the same page, whether you'd have to do something when you return, like stay for a certain number of years or something like that. Are, you know, laying out those, those policies. I think it's really important and kind of getting everybody on the same page.
- [33:06]
Matt
That makes sense. Yeah. So these are kind of like, I guess, external hurdles with your company that you have to overcome. And earlier too, you were talking about the cultural stigma of folks, you know, not working and maybe what that says about them. There's a lot of folks as well who are dealing with sort of like, like a personal cultural stigma. Right. And what, like, we're talking about that identity aspect of finding sort of our purpose within our work. And like, it's often the first question we ask new folks when we meet them, you know, like, hey, what is it that you do?
- [33:36]
Katie North
Yeah.
- [33:37]
Matt
And so how, like, how do folks deal with that? Right. Especially I'm thinking about like those early weeks of taking a sabbatic. Maybe you're even questioning yourself. You're like, what have I? Oh no, like I've totally screwed up. You find yourself bored, you don't know what to do.
- [33:51]
Joel
You've been binge watched a few too many shows. Maybe.
- [33:54]
Matt
How do folks kind of fight that battle?
- [33:56]
Katie North
Yeah, yeah. I mean, there are some common phenomenon with this sort of ebb and flow. And certainly the boredom does set in for everyone, even if you're on a world traveling expedition at some point. And that's okay. The boredom means that there's some change on the horizon and that you're gonna be figuring things out. So it's actually a good sign.
- [34:16]
Matt
So we should try to be bored.
- [34:17]
Katie North
Yeah, to get to that point.
- [34:19]
Matt
I mean literally.
- [34:19]
Katie North
Yeah, get to that point. And it's a good teacher, you know, in terms of how you, how you like relate to stress and what that means. Right. And what does boredom look like for you and all of that. It's a really great teacher.
- [34:34]
Joel
And boredom is so hard to come by in our culture these days.
- [34:37]
Matt
Like, I'd rather constant distractions, everything is out there to entertain us.
- [34:41]
Joel
Yeah, you can like become the world's best at Candy crush instead of having to be bored.
- [34:45]
Katie North
Yes, yes. And the other thing is like, once you create a plan, finances are often like the least of your concerns. I mean, I certainly see that with my financial planning practice. Right. I'm a financial advisor. I help people with their budgets, with their investments, all of that. Obviously we talk about money all day, but when it comes to sabbaticals, you know, I find that the money kind of takes a back seat a lot of times. And there's clients often are agonizing more over the who am I, who am I if I'm not working, what am I going to do next? What does this mean for me? Like, how do I communicate it to people? And so there are all these other personal aspects and journeys that you've got to go on. And so one of the most important things while you're on a work break is to actually do some of the self reflection. And for me, like writing and journaling is really important. For other people, it may just be talking with friends or with trusted counselor in your life or something like that. But doing some self reflection is one of the most powerful gifts that you can give yourself while on a work break. And all the answers are there. You're going to find that the answers just come flowing out of you. It's just a matter of unlocking them and allowing your brain to sort of do the work. And you can't force it. Right. It just will happen naturally.
- [36:03]
Joel
When you say that money's not typically like the number one subject that people are broaching, is that because it's a self selecting group of folks who are already working with a financial planner and they're already being thoughtful about their money. Because I'm just trying to think of maybe listeners to how to money who are kind of new to personal finance. Right. Maybe they're like, I'm just trying to like get rid of the debt from the holidays and I, and save up an emergency fund. And so like the idea of self funding a sabbatical while I'm trying to pay off the debt and start to save for retirement. Sounds intense. So in your estimation, is this just a reality for upper middle class folks who have been on the career ladder for a while or is this really something that most folks, it's accessible to most folks?
- [36:46]
Katie North
I mean, I don't think there's like a black or white answer on that. I mean, certainly the people I work with are self selecting and that I work with women in their 30s and 40s who've kind of been established in their career. They do have free cash flow, they're probably not in debt. Right. And so the number of people that I've worked with, one on one, that's going to be their story is that, you know, they're not, they are concerned about the money and they use money as like a. Well, I can't do this because. But really when we dig into it, what I'm finding is that it's a lot of these other personal things that are going on. However, your question about whether this is accessible for most folks, I do think it is. And the reason I say that is because anyone can prioritize anything. It's just about matter, a matter of having a plan. Right. And you know, I, I did some simple math on this just to give people an idea of how just how accessible it is and how frequently you could do it. And the main reason why is because when you're on sabbatical, you don't have to cover your full income, right. That you earn. You only have to cover your expenses. And so if you can get to a point where you're being very mindful of your expenses and you're able to cut things down, right. If you're saving 5% of your take home pay. You could fund a three month sabbatical every five years just by saving 5% of your take home pay. If you ratchet that up, of course, right. You could do it much faster, you could take longer sabbaticals. You know, there's all sorts of ways to figure this out, but it's like it's a matter of prioritizing that. And if you've got multiple goals, right. How do you figure out what comes first, what comes second, or how you do manage to do all three, or sort of share, share the wealth among the goals, so to speak. So with intention and with a plan, certainly creating a system and a, you know, a savings goal for this is very accessible no matter what your income level is.
- [38:40]
Matt
I love that. What, what are some of the different creative financial choices you've seen folks make? So obviously folks are saving up and they're looking to set that, set aside that fund. Right. Like they want to have that Runway to be able to take that sabbatical. And there are all sorts of ways you can increase your income, cut different expenses in your life. But once folks are on sabbaticals, I'm curious, what are some of the just more out there decisions that folks have made to either extend that or as a way to decrease their expenses?
- [39:09]
Katie North
Yeah, yeah. I mean, even the getting started piece, you know, a tax refund, a gift, a small inheritance, or like a company bonus of some kind can be a way, a great way to sort of jumpstart savings for something like this, like some surprise money. But while you're on sabbatical, you know, the, we talked a little bit about, you know, the travel around the world thing, but there are many countries that are far less expensive to live in than the United States. And so that's actually kind of a cool flex is to, to find one of those countries and you know, it takes, it takes some cash to get there. But once you're there, you know, you could have a very, very reasonable kind of standard of living without the cost, you know, a quarter of the cost of the United States. And so I've seen people get really creative on that front. I've seen people also apply to fellowships abroad or teach English abroad as a way to have some income stream while they're traveling. And that can get, that can be really interesting and a really unique experience as well. And then, you know, depending on what your living situation is here, back here in the States, you know, a lot of people fund some of this through like renting out their current place, you know, either short term tenants or long term tenants and finding a way to have an income stream while you're gone. And so that can be really good. Another cool and unique way that I've seen people fund a work break. And it's not as, I don't know, glitzy, but it's like if you really are dealing with burnout and this is a mental health concern for you, you can likely apply and get partially paid time off using the Family Medical Leave act fmla. And so mental health challenges. Burnout is a recognized mental health challenge. You just have to go through your channels, get your doctor's notes and make sure HR is informed. And if you work for a company of a certain size, they're required to hold your job for three months, months and they're not required to pay you during that time. But most companies of that size offer have a short term disability insurance that's paid up and so you could get maybe 60% of your salary while you take the time off to do some therapy, get healthier, kind of change your thought processes around work and maybe recover from the burnout some.
- [41:30]
Joel
Yeah, that's helpful to know. I love the idea of running out your place, moving to Thailand, you can sabbatical for like eight years. I think if you take that round, you move somewhere cheaper and you're making some money on your place. What would you say? And it sounds like this is maybe the line of questioning or discussion that you take with some of your clients, someone who has the financial means, but they feel kind of paralyzed by the idea of taking a sabbatical. And especially if they are, they have a job and they think, especially if it means leaving that job, how am I ever going to find a job that's comparable, that's equivalent, that's going to pay the same amount. Especially at this stage in my career. Think of all of those looming questions that this engenders to try and take six months plus off or something like that. And it doesn't have to be six months. But what would you say to that person who thinks there's no way I'm going to be competitive in the workforce after taking this much time off?
- [42:25]
Katie North
Well, that's an old way of thinking, right? That suddenly you've lost your knowledge, your skills, your expertise, all the experiences you've had in your career. You don't lose any of that. You don't lose a drop of it while you take a work break. In fact, a lot of this gets strengthened because you have time away from work to reflect and think like, okay, what is important to me in my day to day job? What skills do I appreciate? What do I want to build on? And you come back bringing your best self to that role and it's probably a much better fit. And so how can you not take a break if it will unlock this new energy and this sort of newfound Runway for you to go and just have a lot of energy around your purpose and what you're doing? I think the old way of thinking is, oh, I'm out of the workforce, I'm missing out on this, I'm missing out on that, and now suddenly I'm not relevant and I'm not up to date. That's a very old way of thinking and it's just not true. It's just not true.
- [43:26]
Matt
Nice. All right, Katie, we've got more to get to. Just a few more questions and specifically we want to make sure to touch on retirement and how sabbaticals can act as a sort of as like a test drive. We'll get to that more right after this.
- [43:43]
Joel
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- [47:49]
Joel
All right, we're back. We're still talking with Katie North. We're talking about sabbaticals and the radical impact that taking a sabbatical can have on your life.
- [47:58]
Matt
We missed out on name in this episode. Radical sabbatical.
- [48:00]
Katie North
Joe.
- [48:00]
Joel
I know we did.
- [48:01]
Matt
Dang it.
- [48:01]
Joel
Don't. I thought of it. Trust me. I had to consciously hold off because I knew you would judge it.
- [48:07]
Matt
Matt.
- [48:07]
Joel
Katie, are there other financial considerations that need to be made before taking a sabbatical? I'm thinking of, let's say someone wants to buy a home and they don't have income for the time being that could, you know, dramatically reduce their ability to buy a home unless they've got cash on hand. So what are maybe some of those other things that you want people to at least think about before they start that sabbatical?
- [48:27]
Katie North
Yeah, I mean, I think there's a few things you can't do financially either while on sabbatical or immediately after. One thing is if you're leaving your job, you know, at will and you're quitting to take some time off to do self paid time off from work, you're not gonna be able to get unemployment because it's your choice. Right. It's different if you were terminated or you received some kind of severance package and, you know, getting unemployment was on the table. So that's one thing. You're not going to be able to finance or refinance a mortgage because the mortgage companies are looking at recent pay stubs. And unless you have enough income within your family through other means, another, another your spouse working or something like that, financing or refinancing a mortgage is probably off the table. Refinancing student debt for the same reason, if you're somebody struggling with student debt and you're trying to get a lower interest rate, you're probably not gonna be able to refinance until after you go back to work. Renting a new place is also kind of tough because landlords often want to see recent pay stubs. There may be some ways to finagle that, depending on how formal your landlord is.
- [49:41]
Matt
But in general, I'd be like, yeah, you've been finding yourself all right, show me some pay stubs.
- [49:48]
Katie North
Yeah, yeah. I mean, you could show like the amount of money you have in savings or Something like that as a substitute. But you will be able to do some things that are kind of surprising. Like you probably will be able to get a new credit card. And I'm not advocating for going into credit card debt to go to take a sabbatical, but, you know, you may be able to qualify for like a low or no interest deal for a short period of time. And because the credit card companies are sort of looking at last year's income, not, you know, not asking for current pay stubs. Car loans, same thing. Car companies tend to just look at last year's income versus current pay stubs. So if needing a new car is part of, you know, whatever your sabbatical plan looks like, that, that may be okay as far as financial kind of decisions and things like that might, might.
- [50:36]
Joel
Even help doing some Roth conversions. Right. While you're on your sabbatical, potentially.
- [50:41]
Katie North
Exactly. When you're in a lower tax bracket, there's a lot of kind of financial things you should examine like that, like whether you should do some Roth conversions. There may be a whole slew of tax benefits and deductions that kind of open up to you when you have lower income. And that includes like healthcare subsidies even. Right. So there's a lot of things along those lines to sort of examine. You may want to Google like tax credits and deductions and look at the income thresholds and see what might come up that you might qualify for. And I've definitely seen a lot of people save, able to save a lot more money for things just based on kind of their tax situation.
- [51:25]
Joel
You briefly mentioned severance packages, and I think, you know, we talked to somebody a while back, Matt, on the show, who talked about negotiating a severance package and kind of highlighted that it's open to more people than they would typically think. But if this is something that's a goal of yours to take time off and you're like, I don't see myself coming back to this job. Is, is there a way to maybe finagle like months and months worth of pay as you walk out the door? Because it's a win win situation for the employer and for you.
- [51:58]
Katie North
Yeah, I mean, I wouldn't necessarily tell your employer, like you were going to leave anyway, because they might. A lot of times the severance packages will say, like, you know, it has to be. It has to be like a joint decision by the, you know, by the manager and things like that. But, you know, I even had a client this week, she was considering taking a sabbatical starting at the End of February. And she got a notice this week saying that they're going to do a reduction in force and they're taking volunteers.
- [52:29]
Joel
Yes.
- [52:30]
Katie North
And so, you know, that happens a lot at various times a year in the corporate space. And so it's like, well, shoot, she's going to jump on that. And now she's going to have 12 weeks paid, whereas before she was just going to do it herself and live off her savings for a period of time. And so it's sort of like a lucky draw when that kind of thing happens. Normally, it would be considered pretty terrible to have to go through a reduction in force, but if it's something you're planning to do anyway, making sure you're on the first round of cuts or getting your name forward first would be a good move.
- [53:05]
Joel
It's kind of like volunteering to the airline. Like, yeah, no, no, bump me back to the later flight because I want the $800 in credits or whatever.
- [53:11]
Katie North
Yeah, yeah, exactly. But, you know, you don't necessarily have to give them your original plans like, I was gonna leave anyway. Just kind of keep that part close to your vest and just focus on following their guidelines for the reduction in force and. Or pitching it. Like you could take the approach of pitching it if they haven't announced a full reduction in force and say, look, I know budgets are getting tight. Just wanted to see if there's any room on the horizon or wiggle room here where maybe I could kind of put my name out there and you guys would pay me a severance to leave or something like that.
- [53:47]
Matt
Yeah, we don't have to share everything that we think to our bosses. But I want to highlight here is something that essentially what you're saying here is that a lot of times these sabbaticals, they are something that we do more proactively, and it's something that we plan or that's something that we work towards. But you're highlighting the fact that they can also be a way for folks to kind of like a judo move of taking this sort of negative thing that would normally be seen as a negative, whether it's a health emergency or whether it's the company downsizing. And for you to take that opportunity to say, you know what? Instead of just launching right back into the job search, let's use this unplanned sort of forced time off as a sabbatical. You write about that well in your book, but earlier we were talking about some of the benefits of sabbaticals, how you can use it. Use that time to take stock, to maybe volunteer. But you also mentioned how you can use it to sort of practice retirement. And in your book, you detail how pausing your contributions to retirement accounts during a sabbatical, how it has a smaller impact on your nest egg than folks might think. But can you explain how folks can use a sabbatical as sort of like that, that test drive for retirement?
- [54:57]
Katie North
Yeah, I mean, it's really interesting working in my line of work, you know, that you can work with someone for four years on their savings plan, and then just how difficult it is for someone to sort of switch gears and decide to start living off of their income is a major sea change in identity. Right. But a sabbatical is a unique position because it's a safe way to sort of practice this from an identity perspective as well as a financial perspective of this concept of eventual retirement. And it's like, okay, well, who am I when I'm not working? How do I want to spend my time? Those are two big questions that you can answer in sort of like a safe sandbox where it's like time limited. You're going to go back to work at some point. And so it's a safe way to explore some of this. And then the living off savings piece is also a really good teacher because it's like, it kind of conditions you to understand like, my money is my wealth and it represents an income stream. And when, even temporarily, I'm living off my wealth, this is how eventual retirement is going to work. And it gets me kind of used to that concept and that idea. And so it can be really beneficial from that perspective, too. And I think the sabbatical is nice because anytime you take a break or even if you're off, off for multiple months, you could take each month and do something different and explore or different sabbaticals that you may take during your career, you could explore different avenues that eventually might lead you to how you want to spend some of or all of your time in retirement. Yeah.
- [56:28]
Joel
Katie, this has been a great conversation, full of so much good information and food for thought for people out there. And this really is, it's radical in so many ways, kind of the suggestion in a culture that so revolves around work that, hey, I don't know, maybe you should give it up for a season to kind of see what lights you up and maybe it'll actually, I don't know, produce significant personal dividends because you actually took the time to make it happen. Thank you so much for joining us. Where can our listeners find out more about you and more about your book, the Art of the sabbatical.
- [57:03]
Katie North
KatieNorth.com and that's C, A, D, Y, N, O, R, T, H. The book is available on Amazon and anywhere you buy books.
- [57:11]
Matt
That's right. We forgot to mention early on that Katie does not have the traditional Katie Spelling. Yeah, you gotta get that D in there.
- [57:17]
Joel
Yeah.
- [57:17]
Matt
Katie, thank you so much for talking with us today.
- [57:19]
Katie North
Thanks so much.
- [57:21]
Joel
All right, Matt, that was a great convo.
- [57:23]
Matt
Yeah.
- [57:24]
Joel
Makes me want to walk out of here right now, go take a break.
- [57:28]
Matt
We're closer to doing that than I think maybe our listeners may even realize. Maybe even more than we even realize, Joel.
- [57:34]
Joel
Who knows?
- [57:35]
Matt
Yeah.
- [57:35]
Joel
I mean, and that's the reality too, is is work is super fun, but there's man, life has so much to offer. And thinking centering your life around work I think is a mistake. And I think that's at the heart of what Katie's getting at. But what was your big takeaway from this combo?
- [57:49]
Matt
I think my big takeaway is going to be when she writes about this really well, too. But when she talks about giving yourself enough time to take a long enough sabbatical to actually be bored, to get to the point to where you're sort of forced to do some of that introspection. Right. Where maybe pre phone life. Yes. I mean, literally to sit there and to not feel. And this isn't just from an entertainment standpoint and Candy Crush, like you mentioned, but also there are other things that you typically want to do. Right. Like oftentimes folks are going to use this time to spend some time with family or, man, I haven't seen my college roommates, you know. Okay, so we're going to also go do that. And if it's too short of a sabbatical, I think you can just fill your time with a bunch of to dos. And in her case with her husband, it was a lot of house project to dos. And he's like, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa. Let's pump the brakes. This feels a little counterproductive for me to be going on this sabbatical. But I think, like she said, those answers are there. They are within us as individuals. And it just takes some time to unlock those answers to do the work and to maybe even do some journaling where we're able to let some of those ideas flow from our brains. I think that that is advice that our culture needs more than ever.
- [58:58]
Joel
Yeah. I think my big takeaway was when Katie said, you can prioritize anything. It's A matter of having a plan. And I think it's true. I think we just prioritize a lot of other things in this life. And so what we do is we prioritize working more because it means we can fund a more lavish lifestyle, means we can spend more. And granted, I'm not trying to like shame everyone out there, but that's typically what happens. Truth is, everything costs more and eggs at the grocery store cost more. That's a reality of life. But it's also true that we fund like a Nintendo Switch is a choice, right? Like whatever.
- [59:28]
Matt
That's what I was going to say, like new cars or nicer vacations. It's not that fancy clothes. It's not that folks are prioritizing work, it's that they've prioritized these other things. And so because of that, they are forced to work in order to fund these things as opposed to buying some other time. And that's what a sabbatical is like. She literally prioritizing that.
- [59:45]
Joel
She laid it down in numbers, which I thought was so helpful. She said 5% of your take home pay gives you three months of a sabbatical every five years.
- [59:52]
Matt
Every five years.
- [59:54]
Joel
When you think about it like that.
- [59:54]
Matt
To be able to take a three.
- [59:55]
Joel
Month break, it's not that radical.
- [59:57]
Matt
That's so cool.
- [59:57]
Joel
It's not that hard to pull off. I mean, I'm not saying it's like easy, but it's simple. And so if this is something that resonates with you and you're like, man, I would love the idea, the ability to take a few months off and to really kind of do some soul searching and figure out what's next. And the truth is it can actually be more productive to your bottom line. Ultimately, I think taking that time off and maybe it means making a pivot into something that you hadn't considered before, or maybe it's like a dormant dream that you kind of bring back up to the surface and it could lead to a higher paying career down the road. It might not. But more than anything, I think it's going to be personally fulfilling in a way that, you know, continuing to put in the hours at work, never, you know, nose to the grindstone, not picking up your nose for 40 years in a way that, that can never produce for you.
- [60:44]
Matt
So I love it, man, it's so true. And these aspects of taking a sabbatical, the, I don't know, more of the why do I want to do this? Like finding the identity pieces as opposed to the nuts and Bolts. And how do I actually financially make this happen? It's pretty straightforward. But the. I think the harder work is everything else that goes with taking that sabbatical.
- [61:05]
Joel
To me, it's been kind of this slow burn because I guess I just grew up in a family culture where work was lauded and not wrongly. I think in some ways work is a good thing. But so much so where I had a hard time thinking, well, why would anybody want to work less than 45 hours a week or whatever? And so it came.
- [61:23]
Matt
Maybe you need to take that break in order to see what it is that you might be drawn to.
- [61:28]
Joel
It's been a slow change for me enough to where I'm like, I don't know. Sabbatical sounds pretty awesome now.
- [61:33]
Matt
All right, man, let's get back to the beer that you and I enjoyed. Did you pick this one up? Because it's kind of got a financial theme to it.
- [61:39]
Joel
Yes, I did.
- [61:40]
Matt
It's called Ticker Shock also because I.
- [61:41]
Joel
Knew it would be delicious. But.
- [61:43]
Matt
Yeah. Well, this is a beer by other half. And anytime I see a beer by one of our favorite breweries up out of New York, I know it's gonna be so good. But this is Ticker Shock, which is a double dry hopped Imperial ipa. Not Sticker Shock. Ticker Shock.
- [61:56]
Joel
I don't know. Do you think the dollar sign is supposed to be the S for Sticker Shock? Maybe. I don't know.
- [62:00]
Matt
I don't know.
- [62:00]
Joel
That was my assumption.
- [62:01]
Matt
But it says Ticker Shock.
- [62:02]
Joel
Yeah, but the beer.
- [62:04]
Matt
I'm quite literal. Joel.
- [62:06]
Joel
The beer was fantastic. This was like a hoppy orange juice. Incredibly citrusy, overwhelming, delicious hop notes. Other half doing what they do best with this beer.
- [62:15]
Matt
Yep. Got the hazy action going on with a little bit of, like, sweetness, almost like a berry sweetness. And on the label, it says something about strawberry or strawberry wine, which I can totally pick up on that sort of. I don't know. There's like an edge that you get with strawberries specifically, and it just makes it super yummy. So glad you and I got to share this one on the episode on the podcast.
- [62:37]
Joel
Did you get your thesaurus for that one?
- [62:39]
Matt
Super yummy. But that's going to be it for this episode. Folks can find our show notes up on the website@howtomoney.com no doubt.
- [62:45]
Joel
All right, Matt, until next time, Best friends out.
- [62:48]
Matt
Best friends out.
- [63:04]
Joel
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- [63:28]
Matt
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Matt
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Joel
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