The Diminishing Returns of Frugality (Bestie Ep) #1011

Summary

Podcast Summary: How to Money – "The Diminishing Returns of Frugality (Bestie Ep) #1011"

Episode Information:

• Title: The Diminishing Returns of Frugality (Bestie Ep) #1011
• Hosts: Joel and Matt
• Release Date: July 18, 2025
• Description: In this episode, Joel and Matt delve deep into the concept of frugality in personal finance, exploring its benefits, limitations, and the point at which it can become counterproductive. They share personal experiences, practical advice, and actionable insights to help listeners strike the right balance between saving and enjoying life.

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Introduction to Frugality and Its Benefits

Joel and Matt open the episode by commending the value of frugality as a powerful tool in personal finance. They describe frugality as a "superpower" that, when applied thoughtfully, can significantly enhance one’s financial stability and overall well-being.

Notable Quote:

Matt [03:02]: "Frugality is like a superpower. It's this universal tool that you can apply to almost any area of your life."

They emphasize that frugality doesn't necessarily mean being cheap but rather making intentional choices to spend wisely, thereby maximizing the value of every dollar saved.

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Personal Experiences with Frugality

Matt shares a personal story about his journey with frugality, particularly in relation to his wardrobe. He explains how his initial approach of buying inexpensive, sale-driven clothing led to a cluttered closet filled with items he rarely wore. This experience illustrated the concept of diminishing returns—where additional savings yielded less satisfaction and utility.

Notable Quote:

Matt [07:31]: "I used to buy stuff when it was on sale, caring more about the price tag than whether I loved the item or would wear it often. This led to diminishing returns as I enjoyed my wardrobe less with each additional piece."

Joel concurs, highlighting that while frugality is beneficial, overemphasizing it can lead to negative outcomes, such as reduced enjoyment from possessions and potential liabilities.

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The Concept of Diminishing Returns in Frugality

The core discussion revolves around the idea that frugality, while advantageous, has its limits. Joel and Matt explore scenarios where excessive frugality can backfire, leading to minimal financial gains and compromised quality of life.

Key Points:

• Balanced Approach: Striking a healthy balance is crucial. Frugality should enhance life without causing undue restrictions or stress.
• Mental Health Benefits: Frugality fosters a sense of contentment and reduces the urge toward excessive consumption, contributing positively to mental well-being.
• Avoiding Extremes: Extreme frugality can lead to burnout, strained relationships, and missed opportunities for personal growth and enjoyment.

Notable Quote:

Joel [09:29]: "After a certain point, you're getting less bang for your buck, and you're better served by focusing on other core tenets of personal finance."

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Practical Advice for Healthy Frugality

Joel and Matt provide listeners with actionable strategies to practice frugality without crossing into extremes. They advocate for mindful spending, prioritizing quality over quantity, and aligning financial decisions with personal values and long-term goals.

Strategies Discussed:

1. Season Passes and Memberships: Investing in season passes for activities (e.g., zoos, botanical gardens) can offer cost savings over time if utilized frequently.

   Notable Quote:

   Matt [04:48]: "If you go to a place like Six Flags twice, a season pass can pay for itself."

2. Quality Purchases: Opting for higher quality items that last longer can provide better value despite a higher upfront cost.

   Notable Quote:

   Matt [49:13]: "Paying a little more for quality means you're getting something you'll wear often and will last longer."

3. Investing in Relationships: Balancing saving with spending on experiences and relationships to ensure a fulfilling life.

   Notable Quote:

   Matt [54:56]: "Be generous with the people around you. You can still be frugal and be generous simultaneously."

4. Time Valuation: Recognizing the value of time and not overcommitting to time-consuming frugal practices that offer minimal financial returns.

   Notable Quote:

   Matt [40:06]: "Understanding how limited and valuable our time really is can shift our mindset on frugality."

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The Psychological Impact of Frugality

The hosts delve into the psychological aspects of frugality, discussing how it can be both a mindset and a behavior shaped by upbringing and personal experiences.

Discussion Points:

• Fear-Based Frugality: Some individuals adopt frugality out of fear rather than logical financial planning, which can lead to stress and unhealthy money habits.

  Notable Quote:

  Matt [30:16]: "Making money decisions based on fear is just not healthy."

• Abundance vs. Scarcity Mindset: Overemphasis on saving can foster a scarcity mindset, where individuals focus excessively on conserving money at the expense of other life aspects.

  Notable Quote:

  Matt [33:21]: "They're so concerned about pinching pennies that they're missing out on dollars over there."

• Investment Aversion: Excessive frugality may deter individuals from investing, hindering long-term financial growth and wealth accumulation.

  Notable Quote:

  Matt [35:09]: "When you're so focused on protecting your money, you keep it locked up in a safe savings account, risking none of what you've been able to save."

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Balancing Frugality with Other Financial Goals

Joel and Matt stress the importance of balancing frugality with other financial strategies, such as income growth and investments. They argue that relying solely on cutting expenses limits financial potential and overall life satisfaction.

Key Insights:

• Income Growth: Enhancing skills and career prospects can offer greater financial returns compared to incremental savings alone.
• Investing: Allocating funds towards investments ensures that savings grow and keep pace with inflation, securing long-term financial health.
• Personal Development: Investing in oneself, whether through education or personal experiences, can lead to both monetary and non-monetary benefits.

Notable Quote:

Matt [33:21]: "You're saving pennies here but missing out on dollars over there."

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Healthy Embrace of Frugality: Tenets

In the latter part of the episode, Joel and Matt outline foundational principles for embracing frugality in a balanced and sustainable manner.

Tenets Discussed:

1. Be Frugal, Not Cheap:

   • Definition: Frugality is about smart spending, while being cheap compromises quality and relationships.
   • Application: Spend more on quality items that provide lasting value and enrich life experiences.

   Notable Quote:

   Matt [48:49]: "Be frugal, not cheap. Don't let frugality negatively impact what you get to play with."

2. Avoid Habitual Frugality:

   • Definition: Prevent frugality from becoming an automatic, fear-driven behavior.
   • Application: Make intentional spending decisions that align with personal joy and values.

   Notable Quote:

   Matt [52:11]: "Embracing a degree of frugality can be a great habit, but avoid letting it become a rigid, default behavior."

3. Invest in Relationships and Experiences:

   • Definition: Allocate funds towards meaningful relationships and enriching experiences.
   • Application: Prioritize spending on activities and bonds that enhance life quality.

   Notable Quote:

   Matt [54:48]: "Be generous with the people around you. That is such a great exercise because you can still be frugal and be generous simultaneously."

4. Value Your Time:

   • Definition: Recognize that time is a valuable resource, often more so than money.
   • Application: Avoid time-consuming frugal practices that offer minimal financial benefits.

   Notable Quote:

   Matt [40:06]: "The value of your time is so important that it might be worth the extra money to save time and reduce hassle."

5. Develop a Money Mission Statement:

   • Definition: Create a clear vision of financial goals that reflect personal values and desired lifestyle.
   • Application: Use the mission statement to guide spending and saving decisions, ensuring they support broader life goals.

   Notable Quote:

   Matt [56:51]: "If you have a money mission statement, it helps you realize if you're being too frugal or not frugal enough based on your actual goals."

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Conclusion: Frugality as a Means, Not an End

Joel and Matt conclude the episode by reiterating that frugality should serve as a tool to achieve greater financial independence and personal fulfillment, not as an end goal itself. They encourage listeners to thoughtfully integrate frugality into their lives while remaining open to spending in ways that bring joy and align with their values.

Final Thoughts:

• Intentional Spending: Make deliberate choices about where and how to spend money to enhance life's quality.
• Personal Fulfillment: Ensure that financial decisions support overall happiness and life satisfaction.
• Continuous Evaluation: Regularly assess spending habits to maintain a healthy balance between saving and enjoying life.

Notable Quote:

Matt [59:19]: "Ultimately, we want you to have a bigger vision beyond just saving money. It's not just about the dollars; it's about what those dollars are for."

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Key Takeaways

1. Frugality is Beneficial but Has Limits: While frugality can lead to significant financial gains and mental contentment, overdoing it can result in reduced life satisfaction and strained relationships.

2. Balance is Crucial: Striking a balance between saving and spending on meaningful experiences and relationships ensures both financial health and personal happiness.

3. Invest Wisely: Complement frugality with strategies to grow income and make informed investments to secure long-term financial stability.

4. Value Time and Relationships: Recognize the importance of time and relationships, ensuring that saving money does not come at the expense of meaningful connections or personal well-being.

5. Personalize Your Approach: Develop a money mission statement and align financial decisions with personal values and life goals to make frugality a sustainable and fulfilling practice.

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Final Note: Joel and Matt encourage listeners to reflect on their own financial habits and consider whether their approach to frugality is enhancing or hindering their overall life satisfaction. By embracing frugality in a balanced, intentional manner, individuals can achieve both financial independence and a rich, fulfilling life.

Transcript

[Matt]

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[Joel]

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[Matt]

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Joel and Matt from how to Money. Matt, you and I, we do a decent amount of traveling. So what's a place that you think lived up to the hype?

That one is tough, but immediately what comes to mind is Scotland. The scenery in particular was insane. I'm specifically thinking about when we went and hiked Old Man's Store.

Oh yeah.

Felt like we were on a completely different planet. It was otherworldly.

Sure was. Yeah. Yeah. And our Airbnb on the Isle of Skye, man, it looked straight out this field into the sea. Total tranquility and the castle gardens that we saw, man, it felt straight out of a fairy tale.

It's true. Yeah. That trip showed us how big a difference the right place makes. And if you've got travel plans, don't let your place sit empty. Airbnb's co host feature makes it easy to earn a little cash while someone else manages the day to day.

That's right. Find a co [e-mail] host. Welcome to how to Money. I'm Joel.

And I am Matt.

And today we're discussing the diminishing returns of frugal.

That's right, Joel. Just like you learned at a very young age that there's only so much candy that you can eat before your tummy starts to hurt.

I still remember getting a five pound bag of runs from. I think it was Sam's Club back in the day. Gross. But the one thing some people love, the banana runts.

Oh, the banana. Oh, see, I picked all the banana runts out. We talked about this before. We would have made a good combo even at a very young age. Yes, no, we. So we are talking about frugality, which in my mind is sort of like this superpower. It's this universal tool that you can apply to almost any area of your life. But it does have its limitations. If you lean into it too hard, you are going to see some of those diminishing returns. And so that's what we're going to talk about today, the proper way to approach this idea of frugality. But, man, you know, I was actually real quick, before we get started here talking about that. I was thinking about our wives, the ladies that got together, took all the kids, evidently, to Whitewater today. For those who aren't around Atlanta, that's our local water park. Water slides.

I think people around the country, or at least around lake, they know about this water park because it's on like the Travel Channel Top 10 water parks in the country and stuff like that.

Is it really?

Yeah. Oh, yeah.

Oh, I haven't been in maybe like back. I feel like it's kind of past its prime a little bit. They could spend some money on it and make it a little bit.

Well, I haven't been back yet. We just got the season passes. But I'm looking forward to checking it out with the kids because it's been probably 25 years since I've been.

Yeah, yeah. Okay. So the reason I wanted to bring it up was because I think it's worth considering. So it's summer activity season, right? Like, kids are out of school and as you go to different theme parks and different, you know, like the museum, different things like that. They always have, like, hey, you could spend this much money on a single ticket or you can get the season pass for this much more. And this is just a quick tip for everyone out there, actually do the math and see whether or not it makes sense for you to spend a little bit more. Now if you're actually going to take advantage of that season pass or like an extended pass, like y' all just got the like through the end of the summer pass or whatever.

Yes, it's like a few months worth for a much cheaper rate. But we're like, all right, if we just. Honestly, if we go two times, it pays for.

Yes, I saw that. So literally it's 30, what, six flags? It's $35 a ticket. Or you spend $60 this extended pass. And so we don't want folks to miss out on that. But the thing is, it's only a deal if you actually take advantage of it. And so if you're traveling, you might.

Not want to get like six season passes. Like pick one or two. Right. And then like use and abuse those things and then get something else next year.

That's the thing, I think that's a good strategy is the ability to focus on. Like back when we were living in town, we got that zoo membership hit that pretty non stop. Back when we had a fern bank museum membership, we would do that nonstop. You don't need to do them all, but yeah, focus on one, maximize the value that you're getting out of that. We were actually, we were at Atlanta Botanical Gardens earlier this week and it was fun to run into a listener. There's a teacher there from Gainesville. She heard me talking to one of the girls and she says, wait a minute, I know the voice. It's always fun when that happens. It doesn't happen a ton. So it's still kind of this novelty, I guess, that you and I can enjoy. But yeah, shout out to. She was super nice. So cool. Anyway, but I, I do think that that is a good strategy. Don't spread yourself too thin. Focus on a few season passes or memberships where. Where you are going to be able to maximize that value for sure.

Yeah. And then next year, make it the year of the zoo potato gardens Aquarium. Like switch it off. And then don't forget, obviously we've never.

Done the aquarium before.

It's great. The, the downside of the aquarium is you have to pay for parking every time or you just have to, like, find a free parking place to park and. And walk quite a way, so.

And hope your car's still there.

Right? Exactly. Fr.

Daddy, where are all the wheels?

It's cheap if you get towed. It's not if you don't. Right. But yeah, no, I think that's a good tip. And it's always fun to rotate, Try something different, you know, not do the same thing year after year. And don't forget, too, fourth graders, you get your whole family into national parks for free. So if you have a fourth grader, get that free national park pass and maybe make it the year of, like, a bunch of national park visits. That's a good way to kind of plan your summer or your year.

Plan out the summer.

Yeah, exactly.

I love it.

All right, well, let's mention the beer we're having on this episode, Matt. This one's called the void of perspective that became you and by Burial Brewing.

No surprise. By Burial. Yeah. You got to get with a name like that, you know, this is a.

Burial beer, so ridiculously intense names.

We are continuing our tour of amazing IPAs from burial. We will share our thoughts at the end of this episode.

For sure. All right, let's move on to the subject at hand, though, Matt. We're talking about the diminishing returns of frugality. How frugality rocks, but it has its limits, right? And even though I'm not super fashion conscious, Matt, I still like clothes. But I buy a lot less clothing than I used to. I used to.

You're fashion conscious enough to get by.

Yeah, like nobody's gonna look.

And to not get made fun of.

I hope. I hope at least that by the other dads. Yeah, But. But. But people probably also don't aspire to dress like me. Let's be. Let's be honest. And I used to spend more money than. Than I do now on clothing. I used to take the more is merrier approach, like buying stuff when it was on sale. I just cared about the price tag, not necessarily whether I love the item or whether I was gonna, like, wear it a lot. And so. But it turned out then that I was getting a lot less enjoyment out of the stuff that I owned. With each additional item that I was adding to my closet, I was seeing diminishing returns. Right. I liked those items less, so I wore them rarely. And it's not.

It probably didn't fit you all that well.

Yeah, that was the case for a lot of them. Or sometimes that cheaper clothing, it becomes misshapen or Warped just a lot sooner because it's. The material quality's not there. The quality is not there. Yeah. And so it's not that buying clothing is bad. It's just that what I was doing and the way I was doing it, it didn't make much sense. And so I reconsidered my approach, and now I find that I like my wardrobe more. Right. I. I cleaned out my closet and I removed a lot of the items that I didn't really like or wear. I kind of indiscriminately purged a lot of those items that I bought at a deep discount that I wasn't going to wear anymore.

And.

And now there are fewer items for me to choose from when I'm in my closet, but. Or just pulling up my drawers, I guess. Really. But I like them a whole lot more. And so. I don't know. I guess just like there are diminishing returns to each additional item of clothing you own, because really, there are only so many outfits you can wear.

That's true.

I think frugality is kind of similar. I mean, don't get me wrong. You and me, we're fans of saving money. We are frugal fellows, we would say. But it's also. It's a financial tool that can't fix everything that ails you. We have to know the limitations of frugality so that we can experience the benefits without going too hard in that direction.

That's right. Yeah. And I actually think that that's the rub, because there's a certain subset of personal finance folks out there who think that frugality, that it's the answer to all of life's money problems, kind of remind me of. Did you ever watch My Big Fat Greek Wedding?

Long time ago.

Back in the day. Super. Well, it feels like it's an old movie at this point.

It feels like it's probably 20 years old now, right?

Yeah. Yeah. But in the movie, like every ailment, it can be cured by some Windex, whether poison ivy, psoriasis, similarly, some frugality. It's a great thing, but it's only going to get you so far. And after a certain point, you are getting less bang for your buck, and you're going to be better served by focusing on some other core tenants of personal finances. You know, going back to what you're saying about clothes, not only will you get less enjoyment out of buying more and more clothes, but at a certain point, someone. They could actually buy so many clothes that they're just sick of it. It becomes a liability. And, you know, maybe they're even repulsed by the thought of it. And so our goal today is to certainly highlight the importance of frugality, of being frugal, but to also point out that there are diminishing returns of frugality as well. And, you know, at the end of the day, a healthy embrace of frugality is what's required. That's what we're going to be discussing today.

Yeah, exactly. We're always trying to strike that health middle balance point, Matt. And yet it seems like the loudest voices are preaching extremes. And so we will. We will preach the happy medium continually because that's what we believe and that's the way we try to live.

The extreme middle is where we like to live.

Exactly. And it's better, of course, to be frugal than to be a spendthrift.

Yeah, it's a good thing.

Yeah. I mean, that's something we don't want people spending more than they make. That's a crucial part of getting your personal finances together, is to reduce what you spend and to hopefully increase your income at the same time. The truth is that developing a frugal mindset is going to sa you more than just money also.

Right.

It lends itself to kind of a general contentedness and attitude of just being happy with where you are. There's something about frugality that is going to do more for you mentally, oftentimes than just financially. And when you're less consumption oriented in general. Right. That's a good thing. And so even if your income is robust, wanting less and looking for ways to save regularly on the purchases that you're making, not giving into the excesses that you could be partaking in just because you have the bank account to back you up, it's. You're cultivating something on the inside that I think is. Is healthy and good. You can potentially take that to an extreme. And I think, you know, I wouldn't say the majority of how to Money listeners probably fall into this camp, but it's something to be aware of because frugality is possible to go overboard and.

You can take it too far.

You can take it too far.

Absolutely. But okay, so one of the reasons we love frugality. Right. And just finding some different ways to cut back is basically because it's a move that virtually everyone out there can make that they can partake in. You can literally spend less money and start saving more today. It doesn't take much, if any research at all. It doesn't Require opening a special account like some of the other invest money moves that you can make. Like investing requires.

You got to kind of understand the tax implications of opening a Roth versus contributing to your 401k match and the vesting options and all that stuff.

Yeah. Well, when it comes to spending less money, it's just the absence of doing something.

Right. Right.

Literally it's just like not doing the thing that you want do because it gives you that, you know, that, that short lived high, that sugar rush and frugality, like it doesn't require you to go and get a four year degree. You know, like this is something you can implement today immediately. It's this democratic approach that is available to everyone out there. And you know, we talk about all sorts of ways to save money here on the show. Makes me think of an episode we did. Seven, seven ways to save money this week. We'll link to that one in our show notes.

Bunch of practical things that people could do. Literally. Like seven. We did seven was one thing per.

Per day. Literally. Yeah.

And like you'd be amazed at how much money you could save in just a week.

That's right. Yeah. But I mean literally, even beyond that, the simplest way to save money is just. It truly is the absence of taking action. It's avoiding taking action by not spending your dollars. But there are things that you could do literally today that is going to allow you to save yourself money not only immediately but just on an ongoing basis. When it comes to some of these recurring bills that you can eliminate from your life, or maybe not eliminate, but even reduce significantly, that's going to have a big impact on your bottom line.

Yeah. Finding ways to cut back and be frugal on expenses that you incur every single month. That's going to be even more powerful. Right. Than just a one time expense.

It's got a multiplier.

Yeah, exactly. And frugality is a principle that we can apply to virtually every expense in our lives. We can always ask the question, is there a way to do this activity, to buy this thing or to make this happen for less money than I was otherwise going to spend. I actually love that exercise personally. Right.

I was going to say, I, I feel like there is no other question that is like imprinted on the back of your eyelids that question. It's like cool, can we do it for cheaper?

Right. Yeah. No. And that is kind of how my mind works. So I am, I would say I'm actually like a recovering extreme frugalite. Right. I think for some years I was too heavy in that direction. And so part of this episode is really me talking about what I've learned to a certain extent, like you and I have both learned about this. Right. But I think from personal experience, I used to be too frugal. And I found that there were some limitations, There were some diminishing returns to how frugal I became. But I do think that's an important question for us to ask. Is there a way that we can do something for less money? And it's always helpful to at least ask the question to see whether you can cut back in one way or another. And we're not all going to come to the same conclusions about where we decide to cut or reduce our expenses. It makes me think of Matt. We just talked about cutting, cutting your hair at home. Some people will say, yeah, that's ridiculous, and there's no way I'm going to do that. I take great pride in my appearance or something like that. Right. And other people will say, you know what? Hadn't really thought about that. A $20 pair of clippers and 30 minutes of my time on a Saturday afternoon, and boom, I'm saving myself 25 bucks a pop in perpetuity. They're thrilled.

That's a recurring expense. Well, I guess unless you go bald, yeah. This is a recurring expense. This is something that is going to pay dividends literally forever.

Right, right. And I think there's a. There's a lot of people that. But just asking the question is helpful. It's a. It's a helpful, frugal response. Even though you might not necessarily make the same choice as Matt or I or as some of your fellow how to money listeners, that's okay. But that question is so important. It's so powerful, I think, the ability to be creative and to consider the many different ways that you could save money. It's one of the factors that makes frugality such a major superpower in your personal finance arsenal.

Yeah, yeah. It's endlessly customizable. And that's what's so great about it, too, is you can take it and you can apply it to not only the different expenses that you have in your life, but the different expenses that you want to apply it to. You don't have to apply it to everything, but it's worth considering and seeing how much you could save. Because I will say, if you're able to reduce and, you know, be frugal and reduce the expenses of maybe some bigger ticket items in your life, well, you're going to See, there's going to be a bigger return on your investment in that way.

Right.

If you are able to be frugal when it comes to housing and transportation, healthcare, education, some of these large ticket items, you're going to see an outsized return on being frugal in those ways. But if you don't want to go that route and instead you want to just kind of cut back in lots of other small ways, well, that's totally fine too. It is totally up to you as an individual.

It's like choose your own adventure.

Yes.

And we, and some people say, you know what, my own adventure includes a luxury vehicle that's one or two years old. Like, and that's totally fine. That's fine. That's not what Matt and I sign up for. That's not how we roll. But we also realize that it's your prerogative. Right. And if you want to live a life where you drive a nicer car, but you're able to cut back in all these other areas in order to ensure that you're still able to save and invest. Right. While at the same time driving that nicer ride, that's really, it's your choice and it's all good.

Yeah, yeah. So, okay, so going back to you mentioned the haircut example, which I love, the multiplier impact, right? Because like that's what's so great about frugality is because it not only allows you to begin saving and investing more money now, but just by maintaining a frugal lifestyle into retirement, it effectively means that you need to set aside less money in order to actually become financially independent. Sometimes we refer to this as like a double edged sword, but really if you think about it, it's more of like a triple edged sword because is that possible? Does that then become like a three.

Dimensional or something like that?

Basically. But like frugality now, like that means spending less and then being able to save more in the near term. Right. Like that's essentially typically the double edged sword, but it also means more years of financial freedom, the long haul, because that's an expense that you no longer also have to prepare for off in the future. So it's helpful in the here now, but then it also allows you to spend less money in retirement, which is a massive win as well.

Okay, so that makes me think earlier this year there was an economist, James Choi, I think he's from Yale or something like that maybe and some really smart place.

I don't know.

He's much smarter than we are, like much More well trained.

But that means he's not hanging out here with us having amazing craft beers.

That's true. I don't know, he's, he's short sighted in that fact. But like he was arguing in his study, based on a bunch of data, that he said that we should all basically seek to spend a higher percentage of our income in our youth in relation to what we're making and then a smaller percentage in our later years. He's basically making the argument that we should be smoothing out our consumption.

Yeah, that's the term that he used, consumption smoothing.

Yeah. And we should be a little more willing to maybe even take on some debt in our earlier years because we're always going to make more money. Right. And be able to pay that debt off. And we just don't want to deprive ourselves too much when we're in our early 20s. But one of the problems with his argument is that you'd be fast tracking your lifestyle inflation to a higher level than what you and I would recommend in those early years. And then you're allowed and actually supposed to keep that consumption level basically the same throughout the decades. So very little lifestyle inflation because you're just smoothing out that consumption across a bunch of years. And it sounds okay in theory. I get why he proposes something like this.

On paper, this is like totally an academic way to think about things if.

You'Re not taking into account human psychology. Right.

What it is that people actually do.

Right, exactly. And so it sounds good in theory, but in practice this is much more difficult to pull off for a lot of folks. And so embracing frugality early on, then hanging onto it, at least keeping some of those frugal habits around, that's going to lead to better outcomes for most people. The earlier you develop some of those frugal habits, the more inclined you're going to be to keep them in your life for years to come. If you kind of start off rejecting frugality out of hand completely, then you try to become frugal in your late 30s, early 40s sort of thing, it's going to be tougher, it's going to be a big hill to climb.

It sounds so tough, right? Yeah. Because again, I get it in theory. Okay. So it makes me think of like we've talked recently about putting the toothpaste back in the tube, how difficult that can be. And specifically we're talking about it in regards to electric doors on a van, how when you've got kids, it's a very nice thing to have it's It's a. It's a luxury that I am willing to spend on. And once you experience that, to go back to, you know, manually sliding doors, like, that's. It's. It's just difficult to go back to.

If you never experienced it, it'd be different. Exactly.

Yeah. Were you to never have experience. I think it's just natural to, as you get older, to want to experience luxuries in life and different niceties. Right.

It's easy to stay at a hostel when you're 21. It's harder to do that when you're 41.

Yeah, yeah. When you're 40 years old. Exactly. And so the same thing. I think it's a natural progression that it's just unnecessary to fight when you don't have to.

Right.

So just basically don't allow yourself to have some of those luxuries early on, but then allow yourself over time, as you do see your net worth increase, to then start sprinkling in some of those luxuries. I think that's the biggest argument. I guess my biggest beef with the consumption smoothing argument by pulling some of that consumption into your life earlier on is that should be exactly when you have the ability not only to hustle and make more money, but to also put up with other inconveniences like sleeping on someone's couch while you're traveling.

Let's be honest, you're also really hoping for the best or predicting that everything's going to stay the same. Exactly. And I've personally, personally gone through the experience where of, you know, where my parents, they were told, okay, well, buy. Buy a house that's a little more expensive than you can afford because you're. You're clearly going to get raises. Like, your income's going to go up, and pretty soon it'll feel like not a big deal.

That mortgage.

Right. That, that mortgage that feels like a stretch right now.

You'll grow into it.

Right. And then guess what? Dad loses his job. Yeah. Boom. It just changes the whole, you know, financial trajectory of their future. And so, yeah, you're also. That consumption smoothing is assuming and predicting really that all. Everything else stays the same, your income continues to go up, and that at some point you have more wiggle room to make some of those changes. But we're also not promised that. And so that's where frugality can be helpful.

That's where it comes to the rescue. Yeah, essentially. Well, okay, so honestly, like, up until this point, folks were thinking, wait a minute, I thought this was the Diminishing returns of frugality and all. It's like singing the praises of frugality. But yes, if you lean into it too far, too hard hard, it's actually going to come back and we think it'll bite you in the butt. So we're going to talk about some of the downsides to frugality and we'll get to all of that right after this.

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Time to kick its butt.

Let's do it. Let's take frugality to task. No, I mean of course we just sung its praises. Frugality. Flexing your frugality muscle is such an important thing and we don't want you to forget about it or not tap that tool. That's in your personal finance arsenal. But the truth is there's only so much you can do to tighten your belt. Right? And the more you tighten, the less you are able to breathe. In a little situation where you continue to tighten your belt, at some point you cut off your oxygen flow.

At some point you lose feeling in your legs.

Exactly. So it's just not good, right. At some point, point you've just gone too far. And the, the same thing is true of frugality, right? You, you can't cut anymore. Past a certain point, it, it's tough to continue living a bare bones existence forever and changing. Where you shop for groceries, I would say that's like a smart version of frugal, right? Whether you go into Winco or Aldi or Lidl. Like what Trader Joe's is another really good one. Like wherever you're going to shop for groceries, maybe making that one switch from Whole Foods or I don't know, what are the other really expensive grocery stores that we don't go to? Yeah, wherever you're shopping, that's way more expensive.

I don't even know. Because yeah, we avoid something that way, right? We prioritize.

But going from, from one of those, just making that one switch is smart, frugal. But here's the example. Maybe that would be the opposite of that. Going ridiculous frugal or too frugal. Only eating rice, beans and ramen, right? That, that would be frugality run amok.

Which is fine for a short period of time. Like in particular, if, I mean, I do think if you're getting out of debt and that's an important goal for you, then cutting back in all the different ways is important. But when it's this indefinite sort of suffering and you're just grinding out that frugality, that's when it feels like it's not something you're able to sustain. Although if you're talking about the fancy ramen, I mean I spend top dollar to go to those nicer ramen shops, right?

Yeah, I guess it's just the cheap top ramen, right. That you probably can't live on for.

Too long, that you break into bricks and eat without cooking it and sprinkle the seasoning in the back. Evening though, right?

Yeah, it's nice every once in a while. But you don't want to make that your regular habit.

When you're slumming it when Emily's gone for the weekend, you're just like, I'm just gonna break this off and eat it.

Occasionally I've Done it. But I try not talk about it.

It's been a minute since I've done.

It, but there's like, there's this clear line in the sand where frugality provides diminishing returns. And if we go too far, we're likely to miss out on some really important life stuff or to rebel against frugality altogether, really. Right. Resuming our consumption heavy ways. I think if you, if you go too far down the frugality rabbit hole, at some point your body might like reject it wholesale because you've just gone, you've gone so hard and you're just like, this sucks. This is no fun. And you might just revolt going back to your spendthrift ways because frugality maybe didn't work out for you, but it's probably because you went too hard too fast down that path.

Yeah. And you just end up throwing in the towel. Yeah. Okay. So I think an unhealthy approach to frugality is when you don't have the right information and knowledge on hand. Right. Because in that case, I think frugality can then just be this default behavior in order to be quote unquote safe with your money. Right. Like in this case, frugality, it might be based in fear rather than just the cold logical facts. Like, rather than just like the mathematical understanding that you might need to cut back in order to save up enough for a down payment on that first house. And I think some of that might stem from perhaps childhood experiences with money. Joe, you kind of already mentioned a story from your past. Maybe someone grew up and they were just told often that, hey, we just can't afford to do that. Yeah. And so that's just like it was a script. Right. It's something that was replayed anytime there was something that you wanted and that.

Becomes your knee jerk reaction. Then it's like, I can't afford that.

That's how you view things.

That's what you were told so often when you're growing up and you either.

Adopt that or I think sometimes too you can completely sort of, like you were saying, reject it altogether. And you could end up on the other side of the spectrum. But I think it could also just be a hang up that someone may have developed in even early adulthood, maybe with like the first job that you scored, maybe it offered you a meager salary, maybe that was an impressionable time in your life. But either way, making money decisions based on fear, it's just not healthy. And honestly, we've been talking about this a good bit recently. But we want folks to do some internal digging. We want you to ask the question, are you being overly frugal? Maybe because you're afraid, because you are basing your decisions, maybe not even knowingly, maybe it's just in your subconscious, but based on how it is that you feel towards money rather than what the reality of the numbers in your spreadsheets, what it actually shows.

Yeah, and I've been guilty of this a lot, Matt, just like kind of being overly frugal because I was fearful. And the truth is, when you map out the worst case possible scenarios, typically for most people, they're not nearly as bad as you think they are. I was talking to my mom about that the other day. She literally just retired last week. So happy for her. Congrats, Mom. And I was like, are you pumped? Are you excited? And she said, well, I'm more nervous. And she's just nervous about the money side of things. And I get that the paycheck stopped coming, and it makes sense. Like, I would probably be nervous too. And because of that, it taints our relationship with money, too, which is. Which stinks. Because I think spending money can be a joyful thing if we allow it to be.

Exactly. Yeah. Okay. Okay. So I think if you're obsessed with maybe, you know, living as frugally as possible, I think you're also going to be less focused on some more powerful personal finance levers, like growing your income. And of course, this isn't applicable to those who have just retired, but for everyone else out there, like, the reason I say that I think it's a more powerful lever is because unlike spending less, where there's only so far that you can cut back. Right. Like you just talked about how there's only so much tightening of the belt that you can do, there's the possibility of almost no limit to earning more money. And we don't preach like a Tony Robbins esque message here. There certainly is power in visualizing something we get that you can't just, like, manifest a fatter paycheck. But that being said, it is possible to have, like, essentially what we're going to call frugal tunnel vision. Right. Where you're only focused on the different ways that you can cut back and you are are missing out on some of these other levers that can dramatically, in some cases, increase the health of your personal finances. Frugality is most definitely a tool, but so is increasing your skills to move up the career ladder or negotiating for more pay. We don't want you to neglect These other ways that you can reach your financial goals, like making more money if.

You'Re so frugally minded. I think that's what happens to ultra frugal folks is they're so concerned about pinching pennies that maybe they're missing out on some of those 30,000 foot changes that they can make.

Exactly. Their finances, they're just so in the weeds, they can have a bigger impact. They've got that scarcity mindset versus what? The abundance mindset, I guess.

Yeah. And I think lots of times it feels great to save $10 extra on a pair of shoes or something like that, but you're maybe saving pennies here, but you're missing out on dollars over there. And that is probably the biggest potential downfall for anybody who's overly focused on frugality. And we've talked about spending less, Matt, and earning more. But there's something else that you need to do with your money if you want to grow it for your future. That's to invest it. Right. And one of the downsides to becoming overly focused on cutting spending and bulking up your savings is that you might be less inclined to invest your money. And this is another thing that people who are too frugally minded run into, I think, regularly. Right. They run the risk of adopting a hoarder like mentality when it comes to their money. And so I think when you're so focused on protecting your money that you keep it locked up in a super safe savings account, risking none of what you've been able to save, well, that can have some downsides too. Right. Having some money liquid is important. It's necessary. But what happens when you're so frugal that you just avoid investing altogether because you've seen downswings in the market and guess what? That frightens you. And so you say, you know what? I'm going to stick with the, with the safe plan, which is just to keep my money locked up in a savings account. Well, you're doing better than you were for the past 15 years right now, which is good. But your money isn't growing at the rate that it needs to be. Right. Because inflation slowly erodes the power of those dollars over time. So, yeah, be frugal, prioritize savings, but don't neglect to invest for decades down the road, too. That's what you need to be doing with those dollars. And I just, yeah, I've seen too many people who major in frugality, minor in some of these other things that move the needle in a big way. When it comes to. Yeah. Their overall net worth and their ability to reach financial independence.

Yeah. I think if you're too focused on frugality as well, like one of the ways that you're going to see diminishing returns with frugality is that you're going to be less likely to invest, invest in yourself. And so whether that's getting a degree that can broaden your career prospects, leading to the ability to earn more money like we just talked about, or even just personal experiences that are going to enrich your life, I think having just a too frugal mindset can cause you to avoid parting with money even if it's ensuring that more money is going to come your way in the future. Because you're so focused on the here and now, you can't take that long view. Granted, the way that Americans take on college debt, it's gotten seriously out of control. We want folks to keep their college debt to a minimum. But don't neglect investing in yourself. And there's ways that you can do it without spending a ton of money. Thrusting money into your personal development I think will result in pretty epic financial but also just non monetary results over the years as well. I don't want to like down the road when I think about myself in five, 10 years, I don't want to be the same person that I want to, you know, who I am now with just maybe a little bit more money on hand. I want to be.

I don't want you to be the same person either.

Me, I won't be.

Please change dramatically quickly. Okay. No, I'm just kidding. Well, yeah, I think you're right. I think it's easy to be, to be so frugal that you forget about. Yeah. All those other things that make life awesome. Right. And sometimes that can be just in a personal development sense. It's not choosing not to go to that conference because it costs too much money. Even though the connections you might make could far outweigh from a personal and from a monetary perspective the costs that you threw into going on that trip. But the same thing can be said of just like personal relationships and stuff like that too. And life experiences you can have with the people that, that you love. I think you might be tempted to forego a destination wedding or potentially avoid taking a family trip that could have produced, would have produced incredible memories for you. And the ultra frugal person says, yeah, I don't know, I need to pad my savings a little bit more. And they can be become and I speak from Personal experience, not trying to call anybody out, they can become a basket case on the topic of money that they neglect to funnel money into the areas of life that matter a whole lot. And I feel like I have, speaking of changing, right. I have changed so much even since we started this podcast. But I used to be more short sighted, letting dollars and cents rule, rule more of the decisions in my life. And I think frugality brought me a long way in terms of personal finance progress, but it had its limits. And I had to realize the limits that frugality imposed on my life because it was preventing me from achieving and enjoying a whole lot, whole lot of other things where nothing that cost me a ton of money even. Right. It's not like it prevented me from driving a Lambo. Yeah, it does, because that's just a ridiculous expense. But there's all sorts of things that I was missing out on that really, in the grand scheme of things, didn't cost a ton, but provided really accrued to me a whole lot of like, joy, happiness, meaning. Right. And so I just think I will.

Say you look much more joyful and meaningful. You're just a much more robust human being today than you were when we first started.

I hope so.

Well, and you were just kind of talking about, you said something about relationships and maybe the impact that it could have there. It is hard to sustain this lifestyle of extreme frugality and still have friends.

Right.

You're going to find yourself saying no to things that you really could afford to do, all because you're just too focused on building up that massive nest egg that is when frugality morphs into being cheap. And it's one of the ways that we do define being cheap when it negatively impacts those around you. And so in this, in this way, we want you to look outside of yourself and to look to those around you and how your tendencies, or maybe your tendency to not spend might be negatively impacting the relationships of not only those in your family, but your friends as well.

And let's be honest, it's kind of a tough tightrope to walk. Right. We've had a listener quite. I still remember, I don't remember what the listener's name was, but this was maybe a few months ago. And she talked about, well, man, my family wants to go on six vacations this year and it's pretty expensive.

It's getting kind of spendy.

Yeah. How do I prioritize family time but also prioritize my finances simultaneously? And I get that it's a tough line to walk, but it's one that we really have to wrestle with. And if we're overly frugal, we'll miss out on some really important moments. But if we're too uncautious, right, we might go in the other direction and spend money that we don't have, which would not be good either.

So it's, I think the fact, as long as you are thinking about it, whether you come down on this side or that side, that's totally up to you. It's just that we don't want you to arrive at one of those destinations without having thought about it. I think that's the, that's the risk that you run when it comes to potentially damaging relationships.

Right?

Because if you are say, giving up the ability to get to know your family a little bit better because you're opting out of a cruise, but that means you're going to be able to save up some more money for that down payment, I think that's okay to make. Like there's always going to be trade offs in life, right? Like there are sacrifices that you make as long as you're making those sacrifices consciously and intentionally.

Yeah, for sure. And I just want to mention one more thing where I feel like frugality can cause us to maybe be too myopic. And that is when we don't value our time enough. This, this is another challenge that ridiculously frugal folks face. They might not believe that in their head that their time doesn't, doesn't matter, that it's not valuable, but they end up living it out with their actions. They'll do almost anything to save a buck, even if it means spreading, spending precious amounts of time that they'd rather spend spend hiking, playing games with friends or, or just reading a book. Not even something that produces an income or produces returns, but maybe just something that they would love to do, right? And, and so they, they spend maybe too much time couponing or it's that classic example of driving another like 2 miles to save 10 cents a gallon on gas or something like that. And when we don't value our time enough, we're really squandering what is, is an even more important resource at the.

End of the day.

And the more we can kind of understand how limited and how valuable our time really is, the more it might actually shift our mindset on frugality. And we might, you might end up paying for, for things that you otherwise thought were ridiculous or you might spend a little extra here or there if it stops you from having to make two or three runs to different grocery stores and get it all in one place. And again, these are things I've had to adapt to because I was the kind of guy who was so frugal. I'd go to three different grocery stores. Stores to save an extra 10 bucks. And now I'm like, wait a. Wait a second. That's crazy. I'm almost. Matt. And this might sound ridiculous. I've almost gotten to the point where I'm down to pay for grocery delivery because I'm like, wait a second. If this is gonna. And I. I'm the kind of guy, like I said, I like to pick out every single apple individually. Like, I want the best, like, but.

Makes it feel like you're back on the farm.

Right. But I'm kind of like, getting. Coming around to the fact that time is so valuable.

It is.

That it might be worth the extra money to have those groceries delivered, take it off my plate, not have to think about. About it, and just not go to the grocery store at all anymore, even though I do love the grocery store.

Well, so, I mean, the older we get, I think this is something that folks come to more naturally as well. Because when you're younger, you think, I've got all the time in the world, even though the amount of time. Amount of life you have left is not guaranteed. Right. Like, we could all die next week. And so, like, when you are comparing how much money you have versus the amount of time you have, one of those is most definitely more limited than the other. And I don't know, maybe it's just the passing of time and the older you get, you realize that, like, oh, my gosh, what do I want my life to look like? It's not necessarily how much money that you can set aside, but what do I want to spend my time doing? And as long as we are intentionally choosing what it is that we're spending our time doing and shaping and designing our lives, I think that is what's most important.

Well, let's talk about what it looks like to embrace frugality in a healthy way, Matt. Like, what are the tenets of frugality that we should incorporate so that we can be frugal, but not overly frugal? We'll talk about that next. Right now, the headlines are chock full of data breaches and regulatory rollbacks, making us all vulnerable. But you can do something about it. Deleteme is here to make it easy, quick, and safe to remove your personal data online. You want an easier Way to deal with data breaches, Get Deleteme. The fact is we're all at risk, right? And how many times have you gotten an email or a letter saying that your data has been breached?

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Yeah, when you're young and life is simple, getting a trust or will in place is not a high priority. But life gets more complicated when you start throwing kids into the mix. Once you add an investment property or two, once that's a part of the equation, I know I've got the peace of mind knowing that I've got this checked off my to do list and you can too. Because Trust and Will's website is easy to use, it's simple to navigate. Plus all your information and documents are securely stored with bank level encryption. Each will or trust is state specific, it's legally valid, and it's customized to your needs.

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Because, of course, it feels like we're speaking out of both sides of our mouth sometimes.

We do that often here on the show because, yes, frugality is, it can be a good thing. You don't want to take it too far, but it's pretty great. Reducing your expenses. That is a powerful tool in your personal finance arsenal. We all know that. We applaud folks out there, you know, who are asking for a discount to save a few bucks. We love to see you slash the recurring expenses, like what you spend on cell phone service and insurance. Those recurring expenses every single month or every year. Those are meaningful dollars that you can claw back into your life. And making moves like that, it's one of the keys to growing that gap so that you are able to invest more of your income, allowing you to reach financial freedom sooner. And freedom, this is one of the best things that money can buy, right? And so we want you to have the ability to distance yourself from your work off in the future so that you have the ability to spend your time like you want to spend it. So now we'll give you thoughts on how it is that you can be frugal without going overboard. To the extent that you experience some of those diminishing returns that we've talked.

About, you want to find that sweet spot, right? You don't want to go so hard that like every additional frugal act really nets you very, very little. You want to find, well, okay, how can I maximize my frugality and not go too hard to where I'm spending too much time thinking about it with too little actual financial return to your life? And so let's talk about maybe a few tenants, Matt, that we have have for embracing frugality in a healthy way. One is to be frugal, not cheap. So don't allow your frugality to enter into cheap territory like when, when your pension for saving money negatively affects other people in your life, it's gone too far. And this doesn't mean that you should buy your kids everything they want. Right. And they're saying, listen, dad or mom, you're being cheap because you're not going to buy this thing for me. No, clearly that's not we're talking about.

But heard you talking about it on the podcast.

Yeah, I heard you.

Don't let this negatively impact what it is that I get to play with.

You better, better buy me that name brand thing or that new stuffed animal that, or whatever. No, but, but if you're not tipping well or you're not allowing your partner to spend on experiences and stuff that matter to them, you've probably gone too far. You, you start to flirt with cheapness when you're overly focused on saving a buck now as opposed to thinking longer term.

Yeah, well, okay, well, going back to what you're saying about close, I think what this means is taking the long view. And so I think sometimes what that, what that might mean is spending a little bit more because you're buying something that's quality, even though it might cost you more in the near term, knowing that it's something that you're Going to wear often and something that you're going to receive a lot of value and satisfaction over. Same thing with a season passes. It might cost you a little bit more now, but if that means a, if you have the bandwidth or the margin to be able to absorb an expense like that, well over the course of the year you're going to come out way ahead by spending a little bit more. Now I think that's the difference between being overly focused on the near term versus kind of taking that longer term mindset. But we do want you to save money where you can. I think that's a healthy aspect of embracing frugality. Because even though we want you might be paying a little bit more for quality, just paying full price just because you can. Like that's not necessarily a badge of honor.

Yeah, right. Like that's like anti frugality. It's not necessarily like embracing frugality in a healthy way. It's like not thinking about price and hitting purchase no matter what.

Exactly. Well, it makes me like buying new versus when you could easily buy used. That's not something that we want to encourage if there is that used option there for you. Right. It's like searching for a coupon code, waiting for a better sale to buy that item that you really want. Like these are all great behaviors. And honestly, even just challenging your assumption about what it is that you need. There's a big difference between your needs and your wants. Makes me think back to our conversation with Katie Walk Stanley. She's got this motto and it's a great one for frugal folks to live by. Her motto is use it up, wear it out, make it do or do without. And again, she's calling into question what it is that we think think that we need versus what it is that we can get by with. And I do think it's possible to take this too far. Right. Like Katie, she lives a different life than we do. But I think it can be a helpful guide. And what's cool is that it is up to us. We get to personalize what it is that we want our lives to look like. Like she wants to reduce her carbon footprint and she is intentionally embracing that frugality. And to us that seems something that she does might seem a little bit bit cheap, but all that is is a difference in goals and what it is that she wants her life to look like.

She's a different informed vision.

Yes. To her it's worth every action, everything that she rescues from the curb, anything she pulls out of a dumpster. Because that is getting her closer to the world that she wants to live in. And I don't. I think that's worth mentioning because even though something might seem like something that might seem cheap to me might be the next person. Person's frugal life that they want to intentionally live by.

Yeah. All right, so one other thing, if we're talking about embracing frugality from a healthy, healthy perspective would be to be careful about becoming habitually frugal. And of course, you know, embracing a degree of frugality can be a great habit to develop in order to reach your financial goals. We've seen how it can be a difficult habit to shake, though, when it's time to actually start spending some of that money.

Yeah.

It makes me think of our commercial with Brandon, the mad scientist.

Oh, yeah. And he's like, hey, like, well, we had another recent ask how to money where the guy was just like. Like, when can I start spending my money? Yeah. Although I guess in his case, he was ready. Like, he. He had like a. It was more about the nuts and bolts as opposed to what you're talking about. It's more of like a. Like an attitude. It's giving yourself permission and sort of making that switch from saving and earning to actually saying, all right, it's time to start spending my money.

Yeah. I mean, to some naturally frugal folks, it's going to take some work in order to give yourself the permission that you need to spend that money. Really? Like knowing your craft beer equivalent, which is something we talk about all the time on the show. Matt. I mean, asking the question, what are you spending money on intentionally and proactively. And if you can't think of anything when you ask yourself that question, you're probably leaning way too hard in the frugal direction. So I think we should all find ways to spend money in a way that brings a lot of joy, that brings a lot of value into our lives. And if we can't don't have a good answer to we're intentionally spending money on that's bringing us joy, then we should probably go back to the drawing board and do some soul searching, because we should be spending money in ways that deliver a return.

Yeah. And so what's at the crux of what you're talking about is knowing what it is that will bring you that return. And ultimately, I think it's harder to say no to frugality as opposed to yes to some of other life goals. Right. Like, it's hard to say no to something that you know is going to make you wealthy unless you've identified something that is going to make you wealthier in other ways in life. And so what are some of the other things that you're wanting to accomplish in life? What is the actual purpose for the money that you've been saving up? Because for some folks, thinking through what you want to spend your money on, like, it's going to be really easy, but sort of like you're saying, joe, like, for others out there, for the ultra Frugalites, this might prove to be a really difficult exercise. And so I think a way to brainstorm is just to think through some of the different arenas. Arenas of your life where it is that you could spend money. Like, so think about relationships, the different friendships that you have. Spending on other people is what we're talking about here. But this doesn't even necessarily have to be money that you're spending, but even just time that you're giving up, like just grabbing coffee or grabbing a beer with a friend, if that's an area of your life that you're saying, man, I don't. As I enter middle age, I don't have as many friends as, as I would have imagined that I would have. Or like, there's always those different questionnaires that go out where they're like, hey, if you had to call somebody in the middle of the night for an emergency, do you have somebody other than family, perhaps, that you could call on? I think that's an important question to think through. Like, is there somebody like that that you could count on?

And by the way, you could always buy your friends beer or coffee too. That's like a great.

Yeah, see?

Yeah, that's going even a little bit further than just making the time for it and then.

Exactly.

Being generous with the people around you. That is such a great, great exercise because I think it, it helps us. Like, you can still be frugal and be generous simultaneously.

Totally. Yeah. And so, so, yeah, relationships, the people around you. But then, like, another area that I like to think through is my physical health. Right. Like, you know, all we talk about for the most part here is like, financial health. We talk about money, but there, there are these other aspects of life again, these other arenas. And I think your body, your physical health is an aspect as well. And so what this means oftentimes is, is does this mean it's now time to pay for a membership? This is something I finally came to the realization of. Like, I was saying that I prioritize my physical health and that I could do these different exercises for free on my own, but I wasn't actually doing it. And so for me it meant the buy in of actually signing up.

Or maybe if you don't have that physical health, by the way, it's really hard to enjoy your financial health later in life.

Exactly. Or for other folks out there, they're really into food. So maybe, maybe that means just like buying higher quality foods as opposed to like the absolute cheapest stuff that you can buy at Aldi, which there's nothing wrong with that. That's something we still do, but other arenas in life. So like maybe like when it comes to religion or being spiritual, I think this is maybe one less about spending, but it does emphasize earning less money and maybe being slightly less productive because you're going to church or maybe you're going to synagogue once a week rather than working. These are just all different ways that we can think about the other aspects that make life rewarding outside of just growing your net worth. And actually, you know, we talked about this back. We did an entire episode dedicated to creating a money mission statement. This is something that you may have heard us talk about, but if you have not yet done this, we're serious about this. This is like, this really does matter. If you are able to identify some of these other goals in life that you want to achieve outside of your finances, it is so important to focus on those things because that will then inform how it is that you spend your money.

If you don't have a why, a light at the end of the tunnel, a thing that you're, you're shooting for a kind of a lifestyle goals, like ways of moving through this life that you are like actively searching after. You are going to keep doing the thing you've been doing. You're not going to take a path that offers greater levels of resistance. You're. You're not going to make any changes ultimately. And so yeah, that money mission statement, having that, developing that why, kind of doing some of that inner work is really going to help you realize and see, okay, cool. Am I being too frugal or am I maybe I haven't been frugal enough because I haven't implemented this tool that's going to help me reach these other goals that I have for myself from a financial perspective. Part of that, Matt, is the thing we talk about all the time is the craft beer equivalent. Like, what are those two or three things that are worth spending a heck of a lot of money on right now? Now that a whole Lot of other people would say, well, that's a silly way to spend money. Why would you, why would you do that? What is that in your life? That's a good question to ask and maybe see if there are ways that you can redirect existing expenses to increase your ability to spend in those ways to increase the joy that you're getting from the money that is flowing out of your accounts every month. Like, where that money goes should be a reflection of your values. And it's a good thing to question. Well, is it, Is that the case right now? Am I spending so much money on this, this, this and this line item? And boy, I could care less about that stuff, but man, I'm really not able to spend on this, this and this. And if I could just kind of like move some things around that my spending would, would then be a better reflection of who I am. So, yeah, I would take a look. Can you redirect some of those funds to ensure that they reflect what you care about more closely? That could look like cutting back on eating out to the tune of a few hundred bucks a month so you can actually afford to take that family vacation. Right. Or ditching a car from your life so you can free up thousands of dollars allowing you to take like a work sabbatical for three months. Who knows? Like, that is intensely personal. But, well, that's the best part, is.

The fact that it is personal. Right. And we all get to decide what it is that we want our lives to look like. Like, this is the creative side of personal finances that I think oftentimes gets overlooked because it's like, oh, personal finances, that's just about the money. It was like, well, no, there's the whole behavioral, psych, psychological aspect of personal finances in your money, but then there's also the personalization side of it and the fact that we are all seeking after different things in life. And I think that's the part that hopefully can make a more impactful, like longer lasting impact on your life is because you're anchoring it to something that you truly care about, not that somebody else cares about.

More emotional and creative than we give it credit for.

Yes, yeah, yeah, absolutely. And so ultimately we want you to have these like, essentially like a bigger vision beyond just saving money. It's not just about the dollars, it's about truly what, like, what are all these dollars for? And frugality is one part of the equation, but if you focus too long and too hard in that direction, you're likely going to miss out on the other side of the equation, which is spending your money in ways that are going to bring you joy. We shouldn't feel guilty about spending within our means. You know, like, honestly, the money stories that make me the saddest are the ones out there where there's like a janitor or a librarian and dying, and they happen to have millions in the bank. They didn't make a whole lot of money. They lived such a frugal existence, and they, because of that, they amassed a fortune. And that's kind of sad. Unless, honestly, they found ultimate fulfillment in doing that. If that was something that they intentionally chose, I'm totally cool with that. But for. If they didn't give it the thought, if they didn't think bigger, like, what is it that could potentially bring me more joy? That's when I think that they're perhaps missing out.

I think that. I think lots of times it was extreme frugality without the realization that, man, I can do something cool with that money, not just spending on myself. It doesn't have to be the realization more on you.

Exactly. It could.

Funneling consumption.

Because even if they're planning to give it away, man, how much joy would that have brought you to proactively give that away and to maybe even see the impact of what your dollars could have done? And you mentioned mad fientist earlier. I think I cut you off. But I think in our interview with him, he talked about about the fire community and how unfortunately, a lot of times all the fire folks, the financial independence, retire early. They want to hang out with each other and, like, talk about fire stuff. And if that's what you're doing, you're missing the point. That's what you've, in this case, like, you've raised fire up to the point to where it has become the end, as opposed to the means to the end. In this episode, what we're talking about is frugality. And if you've elevated frugality so much that it becomes the end and not the means to the end, well, then we think that you're missing out on a whole light a whole lot of what it is that life offers that makes life actually fulfilling.

And that's why, even though Brandon's part of the fire movement and you and I are not necessarily all about it, there's certain things we respect about it, certain things we really do appreciate. There's a lot of good advice in that realm. I think part of the reason we connect with Brandon so deeply is because we share so many other things in Common. Not just kind of a respect and care for. About the topic of money.

So, you know, that's why I like craft beer.

Craft beer, which is exactly.

I'm gonna. Maybe, like 70% of our conversation revolved around craft beer when we were hanging out with them in person. Not on the pod, not on the actual interview. But the whole rest of the time, we were just talking about beer.

We were talking about so much other stuff, though. Living life and his life in Scotland and stuff, and kids and. Yeah, yeah.

Different priorities.

Yeah. But we did definitely have a coffee.

We spent a lot of time.

Super nerdy craft beer tasting.

Nerding out on coffee as well. But, yeah, that's. That's what's important. We don't want you to lose sight of what it is that you're truly seeking after, and you become obsessed with the numbers. Make sure that you keep that in its proper place. Make sure that that continues to be the means to whatever it is that your end is to you. But, Joel, let's go ahead. Is that it? You want to talk about the beer now?

Let's do it.

All right. Okay. This is the void of perspective that became you and me. This is a double IPA by Barrial. What were your thoughts on this one, buddy?

Okay. This one had, like, cotton candy, sweet kind of vibes going. Am I wrong?

It says dream candy on the back.

I know. I think that's what tipped my brain in that direction. But I do think it definitely was more sweet than the rest of their IPAs that we've had.

Yeah. So is it last Wednesday, when we had the one that made me that we were talking about? It was almost like a fresh hop. It was kind of, like, sparkly and kind of effervescent and bright. In my mind, this one goes along. It's in that same vein. As opposed to some of Beriel's IPAs, which are super earthy and vegetal. This one is. Is. It's got those higher notes.

This one almost tasted like hop syrup to me. Like, it had, like. It just had a lot more sweetness going on to it. Yeah, I guess it did. And so, I don't know. I enjoyed it, but it's not as.

Much as maybe last week's.

Exactly.

So maybe that's why I really, really like. You like sweet, too. I like them a little bit sweeter. I don't think it's. I do. I have been cutting back on my sugar intake. I'm trying to be a little bit healthier, but I did. Yeah. I definitely, definitely like this one and I don't know, Dream Candy. I don't know if that's a collaboration or, I don't know, maybe we'll, we'll look it up and link to it in our show notes. But regardless, yet another fantastic IPA by our friends up there at burial. And I just called them our friends because I think we'd get along even though we don't know anybody personally up there at burial. But if you are a fan of IPAs and you have not had some of these amazing IPAs by burial, we would highly recommend them for sure.

Super tasty. All right, Matt, that's going to do it for this episode. Listeners can find show notes up on the [e-mail] you can also find our credit card tool there. Just click the link in the upper right hand corner. You'll get there and you'll find hopefully the best credit card for how you spend for cash back or travel or.

Whatever you're looking for, whatever it is, the different benefits that you're looking for if you are able, of course, to use a credit card in a responsible way, which means not carrying a balance. We're talking to the advanced users of credit out there. But Joel, that's going to be it for this episode, buddy. Until next time, best friends out. Best friends out. Going through a divorce while trying to hold it together at work. We get it. Hello. Divorce offers expert help and real support for a fraction of what lawyers usually charge. No court battles, no confusing steps. Just help that fits around your life. Some employers even cover it. Ask yours or visit hellodivorce.com and schedule your free consultation.

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