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This is an iHeart podcast.
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And listeners of this show will get a $75 sponsored job credit to help get your job the premium status it deserves@ Indeed.com podcast. Terms and conditions apply. Need to hire. This is a job for Indeed Sponsored Jobs. Say you've always wanted to take a spontaneous trip to the Caribbean. Here's the thing. If you get smart with your money, you can do things like that. With Empower, you can start making the most of your money so you can go out and live a little. Isn't that why we work so hard to have some fun with our money? Like treating yourself to something special or
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Welcome to how to money. I'm Joel.
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And I am Matt.
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And today we're discussing the science of smarter Spend.
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You know what, buddy? This episode is going to be all about maximizing your satisfaction from the dollars that you get to spend every single day. But should we just cut to the chase and tell folks that they shouldn't be spending money, they should only be investing their money. Spend their money on ETFs widely diversified low cost index funds.
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Well, we know we've always said this. There are a lot of people in the space who kind of lean towards that advice. It's kind of like, yeah, you want to buy something you enjoy. That's dumb. You should be investing for your future inst. Just a poor way to treat people. 1. It's not going to be long lasting and you're going to burn out because
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there are, I would say, an infinitesimally small number of folks who could actually stick to that kind of plan.
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It's unhelpful. And the reality is it's not fun either. We Want to.
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We're not robots.
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We want to find that balance right where we are. Like, we talk about all the time saving and investing for the future, while, like, living life to the fullest now. And that doesn't always mean spending a lot of money. Like, I think sometimes that's the other side of the equation.
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Right.
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Is like, oh, to live life to the fullest means I got to spend a lot of money. Right? No, not true. You don't have to. To have a great life. So we're gonna kind of try to strike that balance. Talk about that.
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It does mean spending your money in smarter ways, not necessarily more, but just being smart about it.
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B
Exactly. So we're gonna even kind of include some science in this episode as we discuss how to spend more intelligently. But before we get to that, Matt, I wanted to mention my girls this past weekend. They ended up playing in their, like, the best they've ever played. Like, five hours together. All they wanted to do was play in the room all, all day. It was great. It was great. So me and the little dude were just kind in the house and. But, like, the crazy thing is we had, like, some extra packaging laying around the house, and so they kind of built their own Barbie house out of this packaging.
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Classic.
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Yeah. Which is so cool.
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They're playing with the box. Proud of them toys themselves.
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B
The interesting thing, though, is that my oldest daughter already had. She has, like, an actual Barbie playhouse that we got, like, secondhand from one of these, like one of these resale shops. And she just. She hasn't played with it a ton, which is fun, which is interesting. But for some reason, they were enthralled with this, like, box, this Barbie house of their own making.
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Yeah. And they get to decide where the rooms are and. No, no, no, that's not a bedroom. That's a bathroom.
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B
It just makes me think a couple of things, though. One that, I don't know, maybe that was a wasted buying Barbie house back
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in the day, even getting it used on a selling swap.
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Yeah. You never know.
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Maybe we should have opted for the cardboard box.
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Right. We just, like, never know which toys your kids are going to end up playing with.
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But isn't that funny, though? There are certain items that they look really cool, but oftentimes they don't necessarily lead to creativity. They don't lead to kids in particular being innovative and just creating something for themselves.
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Yeah. It makes me wonder too, if I should talk to my daughter about, hey, if you want to sell this and then put money towards something, you're actually going to use more boxes. We can get more of those for free probably, but yeah, towards something else. Those are the kind of decisions I'm thinking about with my kids to help teach them the value of a dollar. It's like, hey, you don't have to get rid of your stuff, but if it turns out there's some toys you're just not using. Maybe decluttering a little bit, but also kind of finding a way to see if they're gonna wanna sell some of their stuff. It just kind of sparked that idea in my head. Maybe we need to make that a reality this spring when people like doing spring cleaning. Maybe we do some ourselves.
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Yeah, man, that's right. Spring cleaning is just around the bend. It'll be here before we know it. Alright, let's introduce our beer that we are gonna enjoy during this episode. This one is called Song of Winter. This is another beer by Hale Farmstead Brewery sent to us by Michael and Emily. Thank you to you both for donating. This is the last of the four beers that they sent our way, but I'm looking forward to enjoying this one and sharing our thoughts at the end of the episode.
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For sure. But let's get onto the subject at hand. We're talking about the science of smarter spending today on the show. And Matt, this made me think of board games. A lot of things make me think of board games because I just really like board games because they're the best. Yeah, you do too.
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But was that the, was that the second ever episode we did or the third or something?
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It was early on.
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I don't know. It's like one of the earliest episodes. We were like, all right, let's break down all the different connections between board and personal finance.
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Yeah, well, and it's just one of those inexpensive hobbies that you can. Has a lot of replayability. Right. So even if you drop 30 or 40 bucks, 50 bucks on an awesome game, the reality is you can get a ton of plays out of that game, which means your dollar. It just feels like it's going a lot further. Right. And part of what makes them fun, you know, besides getting to play them with friends and family, is the competition for scarce resources. Right. That's like an elemental part of most of the great board games out there. And it takes a few times around the board to get the resources that you need to, let's say the Settlers of Catan, which is one of the biggest or at least longest standing great board games.
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It's the gateway drug of board games for Sure. I feel like it's oftentimes the first
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one, by the way, one of those first German classics. Oh, yeah.
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We used to always call that one Settlers, by the way, but now I don't even think they put settlers on the box. On the newer versions, it just says Catan.
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Well, it's easier to. It's five letters. But Settlers stands out.
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Catan. What is that?
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No, catan is definitely the most recognizable of those words.
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I don't know, I like saying settlements.
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But when you're going around the board, you're trying to make settlements. Cities, you're trying to get development cards that help you rack up victory points in this game. Right. And you just don't get them all immediately and you're trading back and forth and you know, Matt, you and I, we used to play that game back in the day, but we recently revisited it with our wives. We played on a recent trip. We had a blast. But like, the game is all about trade offs. Where are you going to build the road if you have the resources to do it? Should you scrap your road building altogether? Right. In favor of another plan? You just can't do it all and you can't get everything you want all at once. And if you could, that would make the game real quick, but also probably really boring.
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Would be a lot of fun if it was just shooting fish in the barrel.
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And that's kind of the way life is in a lot of ways. Right. Like our money lives are kind of like a game of catan. As individuals, we're always making trade offs. Should I take that vacation or should I contribute to my Roth ira? Should I get those new shoes or should I go out and have a nice dinner? How do we decide these things, these questions that we come across almost every day? That's kind of what today's episode is all about.
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That's right. And by the way, I'm not going to rub it in, but I'm pretty sure I was the winner of that round of severe losing streak lately.
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And I'm not okay with it.
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I will say it took me a few minutes until after I won, but we used to do this thing that whoever won the game that all the other players had to say, all hail Lord of Catan. It's just another way of just making all of your friends hate you even more after you've whipped out those three final victory points.
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It's definitely salt in the wound.
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It is. So you're talking about the resources that we can be getting as we're playing a game of settlers. But our resources, the amount of money that we have on hand is obviously limited as well. And so we are all constantly making these decisions about how it is that we should allocate our dollars so that we can maximize our satisfaction while still making the money moves that a fully grown adult really needs to be doing. You know, given the future, things that we're saving up for as well. But aside from saving towards retirement, we often find ourselves stuck in a similar situation when it comes to the stuff that we want to buy. Right. We are. We're torn between the decision of spending some big money on an item that we know is going to last versus maybe an inferior item. It's going to get the job done at least for a little bit before it breaks.
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Right.
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And so how should we approach some of these different spending decisions? Because concessions are necessary, just like in Catan, we can't do it all at once. And that's what we're going to talk about today.
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Yeah, that's like the preeminent reality in macro and microeconomics is scarcity. Scarcity and trade offs. Right. And so a main problem we bump up against. Right. As we try to become more intentional in our spending is planned obsolescence and oh yeah, summed up with the phrase they don't make them like they used to. If you've heard someone over the age of 50 say that, I don't think anyone over the age of 50 hasn't said that phrase. Right. That's just kind of true. It's part of getting older. He starts to say those things. I think I found myself saying stuff like that more and more as I'm like, you know, I'm not, I'm not over the hill yet like you, Matt,
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but I'm getting closer now that I'm 40. I say it once a week, understandable, as you should.
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And like, we all tend to point our fingers at a lot of items that do this right. There's fast fashion, there's home appliances, electronics all come to mind. Textbooks are one of those textbook examples of something that is made to be obsolete pretty quickly. There's a new addition every couple years. And so the one you bought, if you bought it too early, well, it doesn't work for the class. And then maybe you can't actually sell it for anything. It's worthless by the time you're done with that class too. But we've all experienced it, right, where the newer model is lacking because it's not made with the same standards, the same rigor and Oftentimes, we don't even have the choice to offer the product that's going to last the longest and bring us the most satisfaction because companies and manufacturers aren't delivering quality goods. It's, again, it's baked into the business model of the company for their item to fail after a certain number of years or to stop updating the software so that you can't actually use it the way you wanted to. After a certain period of time, you'll be back at their doorstep making another purchase. That's the way they like it.
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That's right. Yeah. So let's. Let's give an example here. Should you buy a Yeti cooler? I don't even know how much these things cost, but I'm pretty sure they're in the hundreds of dollars.
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I kind of think like 250 for
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a decent Yeti cooler, which is crazy. So you can either do the way.
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Did you see that? The new story that Yeti coolers were washing up on the shores of Alaska, how cool is that? Like, enterprising young folks were, like, just sitting there with their trucks ready and waiting to pounce.
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I have a hard time believing that that actually wasn't, like, a publicity campaign. Maybe it was. Yeah. Where they're just like, our coolers are so bad a. That they're going to be, like, floating out at sea and they're still going to be solid. They're still going to have the ability to keep your beverage cold. But you don't have to go the Yeti route. Right. Because instead you could go to the gas station, you could drop five bucks and get yourself a decent styrofoam cooler. But so first of all, the dichotomy, it doesn't have to be that extreme. Right. Like, I've got a $25 backpack cooler from Costco. It does what I need it to do. Keeps all the beverages cool in there while we go out to the beach.
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That's the most important thing a cooler does.
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Although. Right. It's unlikely to last for decades, like a Yeti product claims, but I think that's. That's totally fine with me. But the thing is, the variety of options that we have open to us allows for, like a, like a different strokes for different folks kind of approach. So we can each opt to purchase what we want to suit our specific needs. And so before you click buy, it's just wise to think through how long you're going to want a product and what it is that you plan to use it for. That'll help you to answer the question if whether or not you really need a $200 cooler or if you're just itching to, you know, have that name brand to show off next time you go to the go to the lake or something like that. Do you plan to use this cooler more than once or are you planning to put fish bait in it and it's going to make it really stinky and it's going to be something that you end up tossing right away?
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Don't want to do that with your yeti cooler. Exactly.
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But if you do want to keep it forever because you're thinking, I'm going to always want my beers to be cold, I don't know, maybe spending more on the more expensive cooler is the way to go. Bottom line, we are all making trade offs. We just want you to know the ones that you are making before you make a purchase. That way you are making a smart spending decision.
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Yeah. What am I going to use this for? Is a great question to ask because it will help inform the choice you make. Whereas you might just be susceptible for the name brand or the cool new look when you know what, you're not actually going to use it in the way that it was intended and the price point just doesn't make sense for what you plan to use it for.
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Absolutely.
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And I think planned obsolescence, Matt, that can also be just like really frustrating as a consumer as well. Oh yeah. Nobody likes to be in the middle of a project and have a tool break. That's never fun. Nobody likes being on vacation and having their beach chair folded on them. I feel like you have made really cheap beach chair decisions in the past.
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Hey, I still have that orange and yellow chair that I got from Publix. They still hold up.
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Okay. All right.
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Sorry, Mr. Tommy Bahama.
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Well, I got mine at Costco and of course I can return them anytime if they suck. But they're also, they're built to last for a lot longer and they weren't that much more money. So I was totally okay with that purchase. But I think it's important not to forget to calculate the annoyance factor of feeling like your cheap crap is breaking on the reg into your purchasing decisions. Because the fact that the cheap item just isn't getting the job done as well as it could be, that matters. Keep in mind that not only are you wasting your own money by buying something that's going to break down on you rather quickly, that's not going to last as long as you'd like it to, but you're also adding one more tchotchke to the mountains of trash that we all contribute to. So yeah, thinking about those decisions, how long you need this item to last is important too, before you make a purchase.
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It's true. Yeah. There's an environmental impact as well. But you know, even though we really dislike the concept of planned obsolescence, especially you mentioned, like computers or phones that are no longer capable of updating, like, who decides that? The company decides that. And they're just going to decide that. Okay, you now have to buy a new device from us.
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My parents, they finally just upgraded from the iPhone 7 to. Nor like to the newest model.
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A
Was it because they were no longer receiving software updates?
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B
No, I don't think so. I think they like, they were just like, okay, these things are getting long in the tooth. But it's one of the, like, I feel like iPhone supports their stuff longer than Android does. And I was actually disappointed. I think we talked about it on the show when some of the Pixel phones.
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Oh, that's right.
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But after like three years, they stopped receiving updates.
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And that just feels where seven came out, what, like five years ago?
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Yeah. And I think those Pixel phones, like, they could still work for a lot of people, but Google just doesn't want them to work for you anymore.
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Exactly. The evil conglomerate.
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And I still have a Pixel saying that as a Pixel owner myself.
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But bottom line, like, we're kind of dragging planned obsolescence through the mud a little bit.
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Right.
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But even with that being said, I think there's a silver lining to planned obsolescence that I think is important to point out, and that's the fact that it allows for there to be more affordable goods available to more people who otherwise wouldn't have the opportunity to make that purchase. Right. So not everyone can afford the nicest or even like the middle of the road option. So going back to the cooler example, like sometimes the most affordable $5 option is going to be all that someone can actually swing.
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B
Well, and going back to the smartphone example, the Pixel phones can be in the 200 something dollar range when the newest iPhones are twice as much, $1,000 or more oftentimes. So exactly. Yeah, it's a big discrepancy. And so yeah, they're not going to last as long, but man, they cost a lot more, a lot less money.
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A
Yeah. I think the most important thing here though is that there are options for folks. And I think a lot of times this is when folks might want to demonize capitalism to a certain extent. They're like, oh, of course they're just out for profits and they're going to brick my phone whatever it is that folks are saying out there. But fact is, if that means that there is somebody who has access to a supercomputer basically in their pocket and they're trying to climb the ranks of society and, and for a lot of folks, that means being able to be in touch with an employer if they're trying to reach out or fill a shift, something like that. I think there are a lot of advantages for something like a more affordable phone as opposed to dropping a thousand bucks on not even the newest iPhone, but maybe one that's been released fairly recently.
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B
Yeah. Well, so when we're talking about spending smarter, I guess one of the things we want to avoid, and it's not completely avoidable, is some of the the retailer tricks that make some of their items obsolete much quicker. So we want to be thoughtful in our purchases. But you know, sometimes it is that the products themselves are the problem and you know, it's up to us to determine which product is going to get the job done before we actually make that transaction.
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Going to be savvy consumers.
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B
Yeah. But other times we are the problem. And so after the break, we're going to talk about how to make a mental shift for how we spend and how we think about spending so we can make smarter decisions moving forward. Buy the stuff that's actually going to move the needle on the happiness front for us. We'll discuss right after this.
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A
Okay, Joel, I am excited about this one. Here on the show we are all about comparing prices to save money on so many things in life. So why wouldn't we compare prices for our next ride share? Taking a few seconds to check Lyft can save you real money on your next ride. And I did this last time I caught a ride home from the airport after some travel and guess who came out on top of it was Lyft. Don't just price check with your flights and phone plans and groceries. Comparing rideshare prices will help you to save money every time you ride. Save money?
- [18:24]
B
Check Lyft man. We've hired some great folks to work behind the scenes with us at how to money over the years. If you're a small business, you know this. The right hire can make or break things for you. Hoping the right people see your job. Posting is not the best growth strategy. So when the pressure's on and you need the right hire, this is a job for sponsored jobs.
- [18:46]
A
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- [19:04]
B
you need the right person to cut through the chaos. This is a job for Indeed. Sponsor Jobs and listeners of this show will get a $75 sponsored job credit to help get your job the premium status it deserves@ Indeed.com podcast just go to Indeed.com podcast right now and support our show by saying you heard about Indeed on this podcast. Indeed.com podcast terms and conditions apply. Need to hire this is a job for Indeed Sponsored Jobs Is it just
- [19:31]
A
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A
All right, we are still talking through the science of smarter spending. And Joel, before we, before we dive into, you know, some of these adjustments that we can make to our mindset in order to internally adjust how we can approach spending more intelligently, let's dwell for a little bit longer on how products are made. I think because of the planned obsolescence culture that we live in, oftentimes we're primed to think that all of our purchases are disposable in some form of fashion. Right? But I think this is often like just a self fulfilling prophecy causing us to in fact engage and throw away consumer behavior.
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B
So what you're saying is it's not always the item, it's not always the manufacturer. Oftentimes it's our mindset because we feel like everything around us is tossable trash to a certain extent that we just kind of participate in that economy.
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A
Sure, sure. I mean, and I do think some of the responsibility like definitely lies with us because I think on one hand somebody might blame companies because they're saying, well, everything is just cheap and everything is meant to be thrown away. Everything is disposable and they make it
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B
harder to fix sometimes. Right?
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A
Therefore everything I buy I throw away when it's looking a little long in the tooth, when it's looking a little ragged.
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B
Right?
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A
But yeah, simultaneously it also comes down to us as individuals, it comes down to how we think about things. I think we have the ability to fight back and instead opt to buy items that are just made better or, or that have better warranties. Because if a company stands behind its product to the tune of a stellar return policy, I think we should be more willing to purchase from that company. Even if it ends up costing us more, I think we can expect to pay a little bit more. Because what you're paying for is an item. You're paying a little bit more for an item that should be a whole lot better. Yeah, but again, I do think as consumers we've just to a certain extent, I think we've gotten lazier and instead of maintaining items and cleaning items and changing the oil in our item, like there are all sorts of ways that we should, I think, be more prone to taking care of the things that we have. But I think some of this comes down to us and we just want things to be easy. We're lazy and oftentimes we'd rather just buy a new cheap thing that's shiny and fresh, that's got that fresh out of the plastic new smell, rather than figuring out how to change the batteries and something.
- [22:12]
B
Well, that makes me think of the buy it for life movement, which I think is cool to see. I think it's kind of like gaining some steam. More and more people are saying, I'm going to try to buy stuff that's actually going to stand the test of time. It's not like this massive, massive movement. I'm sure it's just a few sporadic people around the country, but, but that is something that I can get behind because it's, it's consumers reacting to the planned obsolescence trend and they are choosing to buy items that are made to stand the test of time, that are made to last a whole lot longer. And they're backing companies who are making these items. And so we were just like kind of ragging on the price of a yeti a little bit. Like they're, they're not cheap coolers. Right. And I think a large part of the interest in yetis is kind of a name brand fascination, which I'm not on board with.
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A
But I will say it's a dope looking logo.
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B
It looks cool.
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A
Is it Austin fc, the soccer mlc?
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B
Oh, yeah, they're sponsored by Yeti.
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A
Yeah, they got the Yeti Yeti written across those four letters across the front of their jerseys. Looks pretty nice.
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B
It looks great. It does look great.
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A
And this is coming from somebody who does not own a Yeti. Man, they are getting so much airtime today. I feel like we should just completely switch to like Microsoft or something like that.
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B
We could, but let's keep going on this, on this for a second because they are one of the companies that do make a great product that will last for decades to come. And so we're not saying that everyone should go out there and buy one. Matt, you don't own one. I don't own one. I don't plan on owning one. Gosh.
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A
Okay, So I did. I really didn't know how much they cost. I'm looking at some that are like 260. Here's one for 450 bucks. Wow. For like the big boy.
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B
Yeah.
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A
So that's a lot of money.
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B
Not cheap. But again, some people it might be worth it. They might get enough value from it. Other people might just be buying into the hype. They don't need it. And they don't need the most invincible cooler known to man or whatever yet he's making. But it's helpful to know which brands are flipping the script on our disposable culture. And I think when we highlight those brands and when we highlight the retailers that are kind of promoting long term ownership and they're promoting selling goods that are of higher quality, that's the kind of thing that we should all be getting behind.
- [24:08]
A
Yeah. And aside from the fact that they last longer, I think it's okay to buy certain items that we. That that mean a little bit more to us as individuals, just to appreciate the craftsmanship of an item. Right. Because not only will it last longer, not only does that mean that we will spend less in that category of expense hopefully for the rest of our lives, but I think there's something to be said to appreciating like the artistry, appreciating the craftsmanship that goes into a quality item and the job that oftentimes they're able to do in a much superior way, I guess, to their inferior but more affordable counterparts that are out there. But we did want to highlight a few specific brands and, you know, just shine a light on companies that are prioritizing, making solid products. And again, they almost always cost more than the cheapest version that you could pick up at Walmart or at like Dollar General. But it's at least worth mentioning several brands that we think do a good job in this realm. And so from personal example, darn tough socks are amazing. They've got these lifetime. I've got like two pairs of darn Tough socks. But I can't wait to continue wearing these bad boys. And then one day when there's a hole in it or something happens to them to be able to send them back, I think even like company replace
- [25:13]
B
them a decade later, you're like, hey, I've had these for a long time. They're like, that's okay.
- [25:16]
A
Lifetime warranty, no worries, we'll send you a new pair. Aldi, they've got the twice as nice guarantee. L.L. bean, they've actually modified their. They used to have that lifetime warranty.
- [25:25]
B
They're still great, but they're not as good as they used to be. Same with Costco. They've got great. But they had to dial it back because of some customers taking advantage of their extremely generous return policy. So, like, electronics only have, I think like 90 days, but most other purchases, a lot of other purchases, you still have the ability to return them for life.
- [25:44]
A
Yeah. Zappos, Dewalt, Craftsman, Filson, Patagonia. These are all a bunch of different companies out there who do a really good job standing behind their products. And interestingly enough, even though Ikea, it definitely doesn't make the cut from like an heirloom furniture company or anything like that, but they still have a one year return policy. And I think that's a nice happy medium. And that being said, like, we know that there are more companies out there than just the few that we've mentioned. And so if there's a company that you are a fan of or that has just treated you really well, actually head over to the Facebook group over on Facebook, how to money hop on there and put share some of the different companies who you have interacted with, who have treated you well, because honestly, those, if you have the ability to, those are the kind of companies that we would love to be able to support more.
- [26:31]
B
And we want other people shout them out.
- [26:32]
A
We know about them as well.
- [26:33]
B
We shouted out a few here, but we know there are more. If you know, ones that really stand behind their products that have a great return policy and just have high levels of craftsmanship, even if it costs more, then I think those are. It's at least worth letting people know so they can say, okay, I normally spend 20 bucks on a belt. This place makes belts that are 100 doll. There was. I forget what the. Is it Hanks belts or something like that?
- [26:54]
A
Oh, yeah.
- [26:55]
B
And I'm like, within our research, we stumbled upon them. Yeah. I don't know that I care enough about belts. Yeah, yeah.
- [27:00]
A
It's like, am I, am I $100 belt guy yet?
- [27:02]
B
I don't know, but I don't think I am. But, you know, it's nice to know that they exist and it's nice to know they're making something quality that's going to last a long time. But here's the other thing that the flip side of the coin, Matt, that's important to mention because cost does not necessarily equal quality.
- [27:17]
A
That is true.
- [27:18]
B
That makes it even tougher out there as an individual consumer walking through this world. It's not a direct correlation. And sometimes you're paying for a name brand for a hot new look, not something that's made better. And you can't just equate the price tag to the quality that you're getting. Is a Balenciaga purse, for instance, made better than other purses that cost a whole lot less? I don't know, but I doubt it. Yeah, there's just a lot.
- [27:41]
A
I think it's more the name and the scribbles that they stick on there
- [27:43]
B
and the signaling that you're sending out to the world that, hey, I wear Balenciaga. But yeah, you just can't assume that just because the price tag is high that it's bound to last forever or that the company stands behind the stuff that they make. And another important question to ask is if I opt to pay more for this item, not only will it last longer, but also will I use it for a longer period of time? Because even if it doesn't wear out on us, we might get tired of that item. And I think that's particularly true when we're talking about fashion related purchases, Matt, like when you opt to spend more on higher quality goods. Try and get things that you're likely to want to use for years to come that are going to kind of stand the test of time. I think about that with clothing. I'm more willing to buy a more expensive article of clothing if it's more neutral. And it's something that I'm like, oh, I'm going to wear that for a lot of years.
- [28:28]
A
But it feels more like a staple.
- [28:30]
B
Yeah.
- [28:30]
A
Like an essential. As opposed to like something that's really flashy.
- [28:33]
B
Yes, exactly.
- [28:34]
A
Chances are you're not going to like that flashy thing in a couple of years.
- [28:37]
B
It's fun right now, but it's probably not something that I'm going to wear for years to come.
- [28:40]
A
Exactly. That's. That's actually a pretty good argument for a more expensive belt because I'm like, I'm not hardly ever Looking for anything special, Special or fancy or flashy out of my belt. I want it to fit through my belt loops, hold my pants up.
- [28:53]
B
Yeah, what you're looking for out of a belt doesn't really change much over the years, at least I don't know from basic dudes like us.
- [28:58]
A
Although, that being said, literally, the belt I have right now is a belt that I purchased in college. And so this is. I mean, we're talking like decades ago now, but this is the belt I purchased from Abercrombie and Fitch. I don't know how they did it, but this thing is still holding up. And it's my favorite belt.
- [29:12]
B
You've always been an Abercrombie and Fitch guy.
- [29:14]
A
So you used to actually be a model. You stand out front, out front of the store with your shirt off.
- [29:19]
B
Yeah, I still do sometimes, but I don't get paid for it now.
- [29:23]
A
In fact, you get escorted out of
- [29:24]
B
the mall like six. Come with us.
- [29:26]
A
Okay. But then there are going to be some instances where it doesn't make sense to buy the thing at all. It doesn't make sense to go the cheap route. Doesn't make sense to go the really expensive route because you're unlikely to ever need that item again. And in those situations, we should consider renting or borrowing those items. Kate and I were talking through maybe doing some yard projects here in the spring. And you know what would be foolish is if I went out and bought a little mini bulldozer, literally, like a little front end loader, because we're talking about.
- [29:55]
B
I don't know. That sounds like fun. You should get one.
- [29:57]
A
Well, I'm thinking about renting one because this is likely going to be an item that I used once or, you know, like, I would use it the whole weekend. But it would be incredibly foolish to go out and buy one of those to buy a massive tool like that. But generally speaking, I don't think that this gets talked about enough. And obviously, renting a front end loader or something like that is a fairly extreme example. But for instance, borrowing an article of clothing that you'll probably need only once isn't taboo. It's awesome. But that being said, there are other places that you can borrow from as well. And I guess my mind's in the space of tools and whatnot. But there are tool banks out there. You can look up localtools.org and locate tool banks near wherever it is that you live. And honestly, just libraries in general, I think those are worth mentioning as well. Looking to some of the different options that are available to us. And to be honest, there are. They are options that you pay for with your taxes. And so these are resources that are available to us that I think we should all take advantage of more often.
- [30:56]
B
When you mentioned borrowing clothing, by the way, there's stuff like rent the Runway out there, but you could also literally just ask a friend.
- [31:01]
A
Oh, yeah, I'm talking about, like asking your neighbor.
- [31:03]
B
Yeah. Because if I needed a blazer because I don't dress up very much, but I knew a friend, same size, he had one that I could probably use just for a night, because literally I dress up like once a year. I've got like one nice suit. But let's say I needed something a little fancier. I could reach out to a friend and ask. I mean, I could try one of those services online where I could rent something, but I could also just borrow. I think we've kind of gotten away from asking friends to borrow stuff. And the more we, like, reincorporate that, the more money we can save. But also it's like a community building effort too, where we just, like, start to borrow from one another more regularly. I think that's just a healthy way to live.
- [31:34]
A
Totally. Yeah. I couldn't agree more. I think this is one area where online shopping has sort of weakened the fabric of our communities, because I feel like that would have been something. Or, you know, borrowing a tool from a neighbor, like, that's the kind of those. Are some of those weak? I don't want to call them weak, but like casual connections that reinforce that strengthen the community. And when it is so stinking easy just to order something online and just have it show up. Well, I mean, don't we want to do things that are. That's easy. I mean, we've got busy lives and just I can just hop on the app and order it, as opposed to texting and asking a bunch of questions, going back and forth, having them, you know, set it out in their garage or setting it out on the.
- [32:11]
B
Even if you don't know them super well. And you're like, I don't know, maybe this is an imposition, or I just moved in the neighborhood. I don't know that neighbor super well. But these are kind of the ways that you deepen those ties that, like, the fabric of a community grows as opposed to deteriorates. Right.
- [32:23]
A
Totally agree.
- [32:23]
B
It might sound weird. I think a lot of people actually start to think of it as, like, imposing on somebody else or that you're being lazy or you're Being cheap by asking, but I don't think so. I don't think that's how it works. I think there's a reciprocity that can take place, and then you lend something to them in the future or give them a couple eggs that are worth a million dollars now, because eggs are so expensive. I mean, there's just. There's so many ways, I think, that you can encourage that where you live without just going to the online resource or. Yeah, borrowing from a friend makes a lot of sense to me for a lot of different things that you might need. But so far we've kind of addressed the problem of quality versus quantity to a certain extent. Like, you don't need eight coolers, you might need one great cooler. But for the most part, this is an issue that lies outside of ourselves. These are external problems on the purchasing front that we've discussed. But another major problem is internal. It's the mindless consumption that most of us all take part in. And I say most of us, I include myself in that because I'm not immune from kind of, are we perfect? No, I'm not immune from the realities of kind of our consumer culture. And I'm trying to try to be cognizant of it. I try to combat it, but it doesn't mean I do it perfectly. And so I. Yeah, I think it's important to mention that these are things that Matt and I struggle with as well, but they're things that, yeah, I think we all need to work to combat together. And one economist, he referred to our inability to rein in our spending desires as trickle down behaviorism, which I think is a really good definition. And I see that happening too. I see other people spending in certain ways and it kind of. I don't know, it primes the pump for me to spend in ways that I might not otherwise choose to do either.
- [33:56]
A
You're like, I got money. Yeah, I. I want that thing too.
- [33:59]
B
Well, if they can do it, if they can afford it, why don't I do that? And so, yeah, I think a decent chunk of the American public, they kind of tend to base consumption choices on what they're seeing others do around them. And when we're marching to the beat of other people's drummers, we're bound to find ourselves making decisions that aren't in our own best interest and which cause us to spend money in ways that don't line up with our own personal goals, our own personal desires. And it's also known as keeping up with the Joneses of Course, like, you've heard that term. But that's why starting to think more about what we want to, not what our culture tells us we should want, is an important step to take. And kind of like another nerdy term here, Matt, that is called compensatory consumption. And probably the best example of this is a guy in, like, a yellow sports car. You're like, oh, what's he, what's he. What's he.
- [34:47]
A
What's he making up for?
- [34:48]
B
Yeah, yeah, he's compensating for something. Right. And so. But we often do this in smaller, more subtle ways, too. And we tend to spend at least sometimes in ways that are making up for other ways in which we feel like our lives aren't what we want them to be. And that leads to a precarious financial position for a lot of people. It's just, it's poor spending, but largely goaded by the fact that, like, other parts of our lives just aren't going exactly the way we hoped.
- [35:15]
A
That's right. And kind of going back to what you were saying, too, about keeping up with the Joneses. So if we're highlighting the fact that we are spending in ways that they think we should be spending, I think that brings up another problem.
- [35:25]
B
Right.
- [35:26]
A
What do we actually want to spend our money on? You know, what kind of spending is actually going to make us happy? Well, we'll discuss how to begin thinking through that right after the break. Okay, Joel, I am excited about this one. Here on the show, we are all about comparing prices to save money on so many things in life. So why wouldn't we compare prices for our next ride share? Taking a few seconds to check Lyft can save you real money on your next ride. I did this last time. I caught a ride home from the airport after some travel and guess who came out on top? It was Lyft. Don't just price check with your flights and phone plans and groceries. Comparing rideshare prices will help you to save money every time you ride. Save money.
- [36:11]
B
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A
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B
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- [37:17]
A
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- [37:33]
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Get started@fidelity.com future expenses charged by your investments and other costs and fees associated with trading or transacting in your account apply Fidelity Brokerage Services member NYSE SIPC. All right, Matt, let's keep going. We're talking about the science of smarter spending on today's episode, of course, and we want, we want how to money listeners to, you know, not fall prey to planned obsolescence. We want them to buy better things that are going to last longer and, or buy fewer things altogether and rent more stuff. Maybe all those kinds of things, I think are helpful in kind of curbing the cycle of just like, spending more than we should. But then we have to really address the core issue. And I think that's what we're getting to here, which is what matters to me as an individual, what moves the needle from a purchase perspective. Because the truth is, some of the things that we buy are meaningful. We even did an episode back in the day, Matt, on experiences versus things. And a lot of the literature shows that buying experiences matters most. We'll talk about that in a second. But, like, that's true to a certain extent. But some of the things we buy mean a lot to us, too. There are definitely some things that I own that I place a lot of value on. Like my bike is one of them, right? And if my bike got stolen, it would feel a lot worse than someone taking that money out of my bank account even, right? Because I've got. I just have, like a lot of history with this thing. And sometimes the things we own can have that deep of a tie to who we are. But, like, not everything we own should have that. Probably we shouldn't have a relationship to everything we own. Probably true. That's that extreme. But you know, let's focus on spending less on the things that the culture is steering us towards and more on the things that matter the most to us. I think it's a really important thing when it comes to spending smartly. And who we follow on social media directly impacts our mental state and how likely we are to go out there and spend like maniacs. If you're following celebrities and fashion influencers and they're putting you in the wrong state of mind, that could lead to spending in ways that you don't want to. Right.
- [39:36]
A
Literally it's in their name. Influencers. Their goal is to get you to do something that companies are paying them to get you to do.
- [39:43]
B
Yeah. Oh, click the link below for 10% off and you're like woohoo. Alright, that's great. Well, I mean specifically curating that feed is one way to kind of reduce that cycle of buying things that you weren't otherwise thinking about purchasing. And it's important too to work towards reducing our wants. And the thing is, and something that I think we, we often fail to realize is that our pension to overspend means we'll be forced to reduce our wants in the future to pay for prior spending.
- [40:12]
A
So we're no longer have the option in the future. We're unwilling spending today to do it
- [40:17]
B
right now to say no to the thing that we want. Which means that we're going to have to future us is going to have to say no to things because we're paying, you know, likely with an interest rate attached for the things that we bought before. And the truth is, and this is kind of maybe a weird thing to say, but if you set your expectations and your desires low, there's a really good chance you're going to spend less and that you'll actually be happier. And I think the things that we encounter, especially on social media, they kind of elevate our expectations for what our lives should look like and then we start to spend accordingly because we think our lives should look like that. Because darn it if theirs can, why can't mine? And in the end it actually makes us more indebted and less happy overall.
- [40:55]
A
Yeah. Leaving us in a less healthy mental state as well. So yeah, you're talking about social media, but once we've quieted all that noise out there, right, We've put to rest all the messaging telling us what to buy. I think it's Time to get a little more introspective to identify your craft beer equivalent. We briefly mentioned this at the beginning of every interview, but we want to find out for individuals who we're talking to, what is your craft beer equivalent? What is the thing that you are intentionally spending money on now in order to basically prove to yourself that it's not just about deferring happiness and enjoyment and leading a life of deprivation now? And so for some, this will be easy because you already know yourself pretty well. But for others, this, you know, honestly, it might take some time, it might take some trial and error because identifying the spending that moved the needle the most for you, like that might not be the most intuitive process. And so I want to say that first of all, it's okay to make some mistakes, in particular mistakes that don't cost you a ton of money, because the vital part of spending more on quality is determining the areas of spending that matter the most to you. Keep this in mind. This is your hard earned money and you're not spending it to impress other people. It's okay to make some mistakes, to make some errors, but we want there to be, I guess, smaller price tags associated with those mistakes, with those areas of spending that didn't bring you the most joy necessarily before you're spending out
- [42:17]
B
the nose, don't buy a Rivian and then be like, oh crap. Nah, I guess I don't really like electric cars.
- [42:22]
A
Maybe start with a leaf, but it's just hard to know, right, if your craft beer equivalent is travel. If you haven't gone on any sort of trip, don't start with like the four week long international trip, but maybe start with like visiting your local state park or start with a local city that you can visit and spend some time in. It's good to go ahead and just dip your toe in the waters first to kind of ease on into it and then, you know, after you try that purchase out, then do just a little bit of reflecting, maybe a little bit of soul searching to see if it's moving the needle for you.
- [42:53]
B
Yeah, I think it's always, to me, it's always fun to see how other people spend money and what lights them up, when they know what excites them, when they know what moves the needle. And it made me think. I was reading Calypso by David Sedaris recently. I was listening to the audiobook.
- [43:06]
A
Is that his new one?
- [43:07]
B
No, I think it's a few years ago, but I think I'm on wait at the library to get his new One, but it was so good and so funny. But he was talking about how he and his sisters like to go shopping in Japan at this, like, weird, weird store where the clothing almost looks like it's been used or put through, like a war battlefield is the way he describes it. But it's funny. That's what he loves. And he talks about how it lights him up, how he gets so excited. And that's just. You can tell in so many other ways. He probably dialed back, but that is something he's like, I spent a lot of money on that stuff and I don't care because it's the best experience ever to go do that with my sisters. And I love to see when other people, they kind of know themselves to that extent. And that's part of what it takes to know your craft beer equivalent means getting to know yourself a little bit. And like you said, Matt, you might have to make some mistakes in the process of figuring that out. But it's worth figuring out because then you're like, happy to spend those dollars as opposed to beating yourself up every time you fork over money to spend on something that you care about. Right?
- [44:04]
A
Yeah. Well. And going before we move on, like, it makes me think back to at the beginning of the episode when we're talking about your kids, you know, like the doll, the Barbie Dream House or whatever. I think this is when, as parents, it is so important for us to put our kids in situations that allow them to. To make some mistakes while they still live under our roof.
- [44:23]
B
Right.
- [44:24]
A
We want to expose them to the ability to make some errors. I think it's important for them to fail occasionally, but to fail where. When the failure is not going to be fatal.
- [44:34]
B
When the stakes are low.
- [44:34]
A
When the stakes are low, Exactly.
- [44:36]
B
And this is going to be a good chance for me to talk about trade offs with my oldest daughter, too, which is, like we said, just a massive part of spending wisely. Like, cool. Now that this isn't necessarily a sunk cost, you might be able to get some of your money back for this and spend it on something that you care about more. Which is also true. True. Like, we can sometimes sell things, right? When we're like, oh, that was a mistake. Well, then get that thing out of your life. Right. Sell it and move on and use that money to buy something that is going to make a difference. It is something that you're going to want to have. And we've spent a lot of this episode already talking about stuff, Matt. But let's talk about experiences for a Second, because they are, I think stuff is underrated sometimes buying the right things. But experiences are often one of the best ways to maximize the utility of your dollars. Because we're all for low cost or even free outings with friends. But this is probably an area in life that you intentionally choose to spend more on in order to lead to much more happiness. Part of what's cool about spending money on experiences is often the anticipation that you get in advance of that experience and then also the memories that you get as you look back on that experience. So Matt, we just, you know, we just went on a trip actually, and then we're about to go on another trip later this spring and the. I'm already, I'm already excited about it, it, planning it as we're talking about it, thinking about it, and I'm already looking back at our recent trip together where we just made some awesome memories with our wives. We had a great time traipsing around Louisville, Kentucky and there's all sorts of just joy associated with even just a short weekend trip like that. I think experiences are, and they really can be one of the best uses of our dollars because via the memories, via the pictures, they can almost like be the gift that keeps on giving in that way. Right. But it's also not just that should season trip to Iceland that provides a payoff. Iceland, I think is still one of the hot destinations right now, but. But buying your time back and having more margin is a pretty sweet use of your dollars too. That's true. From an overall, you know, financial independence perspective. When you're talking about like, you know, trying to retire early or something like that, then yeah, having more money in your bank account really does allow you to leave work before you thought you'd be able to or leave work earlier than most. But it also can impact your day to day. Right. And free time is hard to come by. But those who feel like they have more of it are often more willing to do other things that are good for them like exercise and volunteer, which are two great habits. So I think at times, you know, it might be worth testing some spending on maybe paying someone to do lawn care or house cleaning for you so that you can have more time to do some of the things that matter to you. It might not even be buying more stuff. It might be buying more of your time back to enjoy the things that you care about. Even if it's as simple as like laying in your hammock reading a book.
- [47:20]
A
That's true, man. I think this is really important to bring up as well, because it can be difficult for folks to intentionally choose to not do tasks that they are very capable and physically able to do in order to do something else. Oftentimes when we're younger, we have less money. Right? Like, we've got less money and plenty of time, but for like, the more wealth you build up, oftentimes those two things flip and you're like, oh man, I'm realizing, like, well, we're doing great with our finances, we're on track for retirement. Whatever financial goals we've set for ourselves, it seems like that that's working out. But oftentimes the stress is revolves around time. And so. I totally agree. I think this is a way that we can proactively reclaim some of that time by paying for some of those things. And again, I think it's something that we oftentimes have to challenge ourselves to do because truly the frugal approach would be to say, oh, well, I can do that. If I am capable of doing that, why should I pay somebody else to do that? It's like, well, what is it that you're trying to get more of in your life? Okay. But once you've identified that, you know, like the things like the items or the different experiences that make you the happiest, I think something that you can do to heighten your satisfaction even more is by making your purchase a rare treat. I think the more regularly that we do something, the less special it becomes. Right. And so like we were just talking about travel. I think there's a massive difference between taking a couple awesome week long trips every single year and living a life of just perpetual non stop traveling. Yeah. All of a sudden it probably doesn't feel all that special anymore. If you're just constantly like, that's just your new normal. And that hedonic treadmill kicks in and before you know it, you don't even realize that you're traveling. This is just your life.
- [48:56]
B
Yeah.
- [48:56]
A
Oh, but by the way, it's your life that happens to cost a ton of money.
- [48:59]
B
Makes me think of talking to Elaine and she talked on Monday about the frugal traveler from the New York Times, and she mentioned that one of the things that she does sometimes is use those. Some of those points she's accrued to upgrade to a nice receipt in the airplane. And she's traveling all the time. And it's her splurge. Yeah, it's a splurge. And it's. And I'm like, that's a great way to treat it. Because I know some people and it's
- [49:17]
A
like if that's all you do, first
- [49:19]
B
class all the time, no matter what,
- [49:20]
A
all of a sudden that's just the new normal.
- [49:22]
B
That's the new normal. And it doesn't feel the same and it doesn't provide the same rewards.
- [49:26]
A
Yeah. Similarly, it makes me think of every Monday, you and I, we go to our local little coffee shop, little stand over there and we order a coffee. We enjoy that, that barista made coffee way more when we get it once a week. And as opposed to imagine if we went over there every single day, first of all, just the financial irresponsibility.
- [49:45]
B
We lose our job as how to Money hosts.
- [49:48]
A
We'd lose our street cred if we were doing that. But I don't think we would enjoy it nearly as much. It would just kind of. It would become again the new normal. There's just something about the novelty that I think that makes us appreciate the purchase even more.
- [50:00]
B
Yeah, man. I think that that's totally true. The more we get used to certain things, the less valuable they become. But we kind of continue to expect to do those things. We keep spending money on those things, and yet the payoff isn't quite the same. Right. After a while.
- [50:14]
A
Makes me think of an old personal finance guy that I used to. To keep up with and he would say that eventually, if you eat lobster every single day, it just tastes like soap. Which I've never been a huge lobster fan myself, but I get that.
- [50:27]
B
Yeah, I get that too. I think if I eat steak every day, you get tired of it pretty quick. Right. So even the things that you love, if you overdo it, one, it's going to be bad for your finances. But two, it's just not going to, it's not going to provide the same return on investment. Well, and the goal of this episode is for all of us to really dial in and optimize our spending. But it's likely a great goal. Just spend less overall as well.
- [50:48]
A
Right.
- [50:48]
B
I think that's probably what a lot of Howdy Money listeners want. They are. Some of them might have like a 30% savings rate and they're like, yeah, no, I just, not really. I think I'm good. But then there are other people who are like, no, really, that's something I want is to spend less overall. And there's a slogan from one of our favorite people in the personal finance space, Katie Wolk Stanley. She goes by the anti consumer advocate and what she says is use it up, up, wear it out, make it do or do without. And if you follow her on Instagram, she's always doing something to save money. And it's often something that most people just wouldn't even consider. Like, she shops at the thrift store regularly. She. She's often selling the things that she finds at the thrift store and telling you how much she made, how much she profited by selling it on ebay, which I think is awesome. Like, she fixes the stuff that she owns when it's falling apart. Even if it's just like a cheap pair of sandals for her, no stone is left unturned. And I love following her because it goads me into leaning harder towards wasting less and making do with what I've got. Matt just kind of like what we were talking about earlier with social media, the influence they can have, like her influence on me when I'm scrolling through social media is a positive one. It's the exact opposite, I think, of what a lot of people are getting in their feed. So follow people like that that are going to encourage you in the right direction that aren't going to lead you down the path of like, just rampant consumer spending enticing you towards things that you can't necessarily afford and then that you don't necessarily need.
- [52:09]
A
Totally agree, man. Yeah, I think it's important for us to start thinking about our purchases from a different perspective, because, sure, spending more money, it can fix certain problems in our lives, but it's not the solution to every problem that we face. Friend of the show Morgan Housel, he says that spending money to make you happy is hard when you're already happy. And so I think that's just kind of a great quote for us to end on, because being content with what it is that we have will just make it easier to avoid some of those spending traps that we can fall into when we know ourselves well and we can pinpoint exactly, you know, what actually makes us happy. I think we're going to be less likely to waste our money on either crap that's going to break or the things that culture and society says that we should be spending our money on.
- [52:51]
B
Yeah, I like that quote. I'm going to say it one more time. Spending money to make you happy is hard if you're already happy. That's just a great way to think about it. Right. And we're all going to feel that need, that desire less to spend money when we're truly happy. And part of that becomes knowing yourself.
- [53:07]
A
It becomes more about utility as opposed to the. The feelings that something that a purchase gives you.
- [53:12]
B
Sure. And we all know, we've all been there, that sometimes it's that the temporary feeling that a purchase can provide. That's what we're seeking. And we're saying. Matt and I are saying in this episode. No, no, no. We want to avoid trying to maximize those fleeting feelings. Right. That sometimes consuming things, buying stuff randomly on the Internet can provide. We're more about that long term health. And so hopefully. Yeah. Spending wise. Hopefully we've given you some tips in this episode to spend wisely and to spend in a more reflective manner that is going to help you achieve those goals that you've got for yourself.
- [53:43]
A
That's right. Yeah. And not surprisingly, I feel like this is kind of a very balanced approach to spending money, which I think folks should come to expect from us here at how to Money.
- [53:52]
B
Yeah. Again, there's the classic personal finance way of talking to people is like, stop buying everything. Don't buy anything. Only drive a 25 year old used car. And there are certain things like we're hardcore on, you and I. We do drive. Drive older used cars. We have one car. And that's something that we're one car. We're pretty into. But then there are other things where it's like people would be like, oh, really? You bought a $200 jacket. I would have thought you'd been wearing something from the thrift store. And it's like, no, well, that jacket's gonna last me a long time and I really like it. So. Yeah.
- [54:19]
A
But it's really important for me to have a down jacket so I can stay warm in the winter. I spend a lot of time outside.
- [54:23]
B
Yeah. And on the bike riding. So, yeah. Those are the kind of things that, like, they're gonna be different for each of us as individuals, but they're important for us to think that through.
- [54:31]
A
Exactly. That's right, man. All right, so the beer you and I enjoyed today was Song of Winter. This is a chocolate stout brewed with fresh cocoa nibs by Hill Farmstead Brewery. What were your thoughts on this beer?
- [54:43]
B
Yeah, so honestly, it made me think of Monday's beer a whole lot, the IPA that we had in the fact that it was kind of just a basic style, like nothing over the top, but it was well executed. It was just a great example of kind of like a milk stout. This is definitely what kind of this vibe was going on.
- [55:00]
A
Yeah, dude, I totally agree with you there because it was like, it was super toasty and roasty, but simultaneously it wasn't Too acidic. Like it was really smooth. And oftentimes you find that in a
- [55:11]
B
milk stout, there's gotta be lactose in there, right?
- [55:13]
A
It doesn't say that it's a milk stout at all.
- [55:15]
B
Okay. Well, it tastes like that to me. But it also is just one of those things where it's basic in its approach, but it's really, really well done. And so yeah, I'd say it was clean and delicious. And it's still stout season where we are here in Atlanta. It's still, it's still somewhat cold, still chilly. Yeah, I dig, I dig.
- [55:32]
A
Still counts as winter for sure. But yeah. So these were the first two Hill Farmstead beers that we've ever had. And I will say they were most excellent. They're very good. But they didn't at the same time they didn't completely blow my socks off like Fidens did. Those are the beers we had last week, Monday and Wednesday. Wednesday's beers from last week that Michael and Emily donated as well. Those beers completely, I mean they blew us both away. They were mind blowing.
- [55:58]
B
Well, Hill Farm said has apparently some of the best. And these by the way are totally so good.
- [56:03]
A
They're very good.
- [56:03]
B
But I think some of their barrel aged sours are maybe the most popular. I think Hill Farm said so maybe one of these days we'll grab one of those. That's the goal.
- [56:11]
A
I mean I would totally, I would give these an A. But the beers last week were like A plus plus. Yeah.
- [56:15]
B
Oh yeah. Agreed. For sure.
- [56:16]
A
Actually, I would give this an A plus plus. It's just last week was just over the top. It was way more than I think either of us were expecting but incredibly appreciative to again Michael and Emily for sending these our way.
- [56:26]
B
For sure that's going to do it for this episode. If you want show notes, you can go to our website@howtomoney.com and as always, you can find the best credit card for you@howtomoney.com credit cards. But Matt, that's going to do it. Until next time. Best friends out.
- [56:40]
A
Best friends out.
- [56:57]
B
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- [57:00]
A
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A
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B
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A
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- [58:27]
B
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