Time > Money w/ Ben Miller (Bestie Ep) #1082

Summary

How to Money — Time > Money w/ Ben Miller (Bestie Ep) #1082

Podcast by iHeartPodcasts | Hosts: Joel & Matt | Guest: Ben Miller (Founder of Chronify) | December 31, 2025

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Episode Overview

This episode dives into the crucial relationship between time and money, arguing that time is the more precious asset. Guest Ben Miller shares his journey from Wall Street to founding Chronify, a platform that reframes personal finance in terms of time. Hosts Joel and Matt, along with Ben, emphasize intentionality in spending, redefining financial independence, and using money as a tool to create a more fulfilling life. They also discuss practical strategies for balancing savings, spending, and the pursuit of happiness.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Defining “Enough” and the Time–Money Tradeoff

[02:11, 24:54, 26:11]

• Ben Miller’s Story: Left a high-powered job at Goldman Sachs in search of more meaning, spurred by seeing colleagues accumulate wealth but lack fulfillment (“I hope by the time I’m 45, I’ve done more than just this.” — Ben, [06:46]).
• The essential question: How much is enough? Without a clear framework, people either overspend or become unnecessarily frugal.
• Time as a Metric: Turning financial questions into time-based ones—e.g., how many months/years of life will this $100 monthly recurring expense cost you?

“When you think about spending your money… thinking about it in terms of hours of your life... kind of hits differently, doesn't it?”
— Joel, [24:54]

"All these numbers that often make people's eyes glaze over... if you can distill it all down to one little simple idea that has intuitive hooks, people can imagine what it's like to relax for seven years. Then, if you've got seven years in the bank, that's what that says."
— Ben, [10:43]

2. Intentional Spending & The Craft Beer Equivalent

[03:32, 19:28, 34:08]

• Joel & Matt splurge intentionally on craft beer, illustrating the value of spending “lavishly” on what matters most while being frugal elsewhere.
• Ben’s “craft beer equivalent” is strategy board games: “Sometimes can go for like a hundred bucks a pop, but well worth it—hours of family fun.” ([03:48])
• Advice: Identify your priorities—invest in joy, not just savings. Ben encourages listeners to “own your spending,” and not just focus on saving.
• The danger of excessive deprival: “If you're unhappy at work, then I thought the cure… was to sprint for the finish line. But unhappy at work plus unhappy at home just makes you unhappy.” ([17:56])

"For people who are wired like I am... you need some encouragement to take some ownership of your spending and do that craft beer equivalent type of thing."
— Ben, [19:28]

3. Transitioning Careers, Managing Risk, and Building a Buffer

[08:10, 12:16]

• Ben's move from Wall Street to entrepreneurship was driven by both a quest for meaning and greater control over his time.
• On financial buffers: Starting a business requires “way higher” than a typical 6-month emergency fund—“maybe a year or two at least set aside.”
• Risk tolerance is personal; Ben describes himself as risk-averse, especially with family responsibilities: “I kind of had to oversolve... I had two little kids, now I've got three.” ([12:58])

4. Work–Life Balance and the Realities of Entrepreneurship

[14:04, 16:21, 29:10]

• The transition to self-employment means never truly “clocking out,” but there’s fulfillment in the work:
  “It's harder for me to be present with my kids than it would be if I had a job I didn't care about. But... they get to witness a father who's in love with his work.”
• Entrepreneurship is described as a “punctuated equilibrium”—long hard stretches, then occasional big wins.
• Financial independence is reframed: It's not just about “never working again,” but about “curating your problems”—having enough money to choose how you spend your time ([28:02]).

“One of the best things about financial independence... is being able to determine, just based on your sole discretion, what's worth your time and what's not.”
— Ben, [28:02]

5. The Scarcity Mindset vs. Abundance Mindset

[30:09–32:16]

• Scarcity can lead to over-saving and under-living; abundance recognizes that savings are “just delayed consumption.”
• Balance is key—avoid the “cat food retirement” as much as the trap of accumulating wealth but never enjoying it.

“Savings are always and everywhere just delayed consumption. By budgeting or saving, you’re admitting there is a future worth saving for.”
— Ben, [31:00]

6. Habits, Spending Patterns, and Chronify’s Philosophy

[36:53]

• The importance of habits: Small recurring expenses, when annualized and compounded, have major impacts.
• Chronify helps users visualize the time consequences of their habits, making the tradeoffs more tangible.
• Example: Bringing lunch to work can save $200/month, which equates to needing $60,000 less for retirement (using the 4% rule).

7. On Paying for Convenience and Outsourcing Tasks

[45:26, 47:49, 49:12]

• Whether to pay for convenience should be mission-aligned: Does it support your core values and can you afford it?
• Both hosts and guest reflect on the balance between DIY and outsourcing, not just for cost but for family learning and values.
• Outsourcing everything is warned against: “If you outsource every problem in your life, you’ve just gone and outsourced your life.”

“You need to participate in solving some problems, because otherwise, frankly, there’s nothing left to life.”
— Ben, [49:12]

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Notable Quotes & Moments

On the Lure of Financial Independence:

“I did things backwards... Financial independence ASAP, happiness eventually. And that was, for me, completely backwards.”
— Ben Miller, [31:55]

On Mission & Intentionality:

“Step one is knowing what you value. Step one is understanding, for you as an individual, what are your priorities?”
— Ben, [34:08]

On Habit Change:

"The power of habit, especially as it relates to time, is that $200 a month is $2,400 a year... You need $60,000 to fund that habit in perpetuity."
— Ben, [36:53]

On Optimization Culture:

"Optimization is something that can absolutely be overdone... You gotta make sure you're accounting for your humanity here. You're not a robot."
— Ben, [44:08]

On Outsourcing Life:

"If you outsource every problem in your life, you've just gone and outsourced your life."
— Ben, [49:12]

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Timestamps for Important Segments

• [02:11] Introduction to Ben, time as the center of personal finance
• [03:32] Craft beer “equivalent” & intentional spending
• [06:46] Epiphany: Watching a coworker retire at 45
• [08:10] Genesis of Chronify and reframing money in time terms
• [10:43] Impact of “Your Money or Your Life” on personal philosophy
• [12:16] Financial requirements for entrepreneurship
• [14:04] The work–life balance challenge of entrepreneurship
• [16:21] Emotional volatility and the rollercoaster of startups
• [17:56] Dangers of deferring happiness and over-saving
• [19:28] Encouraging intentional and joyful spending
• [24:54] Why reframing expenses in “life hours” matters
• [26:11] The concept of “enough”
• [28:02] Financial independence as “problem curation”
• [30:09] The scarcity mindset and the importance of balance
• [31:55] “Financial independence ASAP, happiness eventually” — and why that's wrong
• [34:08] How to intentionally increase (and enjoy) spending
• [36:53] Analyzing habits and recurring expenses with Chronify
• [45:26] Philosophy on paying for convenience versus DIY
• [49:12] The perils of outsourcing everything
• [50:37] Where to learn more about Ben and Chronify

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Takeaways (from Hosts)

• Matt: Apply the principle of “missionally aligned” spending to time—if you outsource a task, use that extra time for high-value activities, not just passive relaxation. ([52:10])

• Joel: Reframing costs in “hours of life” grants ownership and permission—empowering reluctant spenders to invest in what matters, or rethink if a purchase is “worth it” in life hours. ([54:18])

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Episode Tone & Style

Warm, approachable, slightly humorous (“Are you talking about Monopoly? ... Leave that for the kids.”), and focused on practical, jargon-free advice. The hosts and guest repeatedly stress the importance of balancing prudence with joy and intention, making the guidance accessible for anyone, regardless of their financial starting point.

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Final Thoughts

This episode is a must-listen for anyone seeking to realign their financial strategy around meaning, not just milestones. By focusing on the intersection of time and money, Joel, Matt, and Ben provide a thought-provoking and actionable guide to living and spending with intention—making each hour, not just each dollar, count.

Transcript

[A]

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[D]

Welcome to how to Money. I'm Joel.

[B]

And I am Matt.

[D]

And today we're talking about why time is Greater than Money with Ben Mil.

[B]

So time, it's easily our most precious resource. But it's not often that we take the time to figure out how it is that we're going to spend our minutes and our hours, which then inevitably turn into weeks and years. And then if you completely fail to do this, like that is when you end up as the proverbial careerist, right? Where you're looking back at the wasted decades, wishing that you would have done something differently. And luckily, our guest today, Ben Miller, he actually did shake things up. He traded a position on Wall street with Goldman Sachs for a fulfilling life out there in Colorado. He chose meaning over money. And he's actually on a quest to help others to discover what a fulfilling life is for them with the software that he's developed, Chronofy. So we're gonna talk about that. And, you know, I'm excited for what I think will be a wide ranging conversation all about personal finances, but specifically with time at the center of pretty much everything that we talk about today. So. Ben Miller, thank you so much for joining us today on the podcast.

[C]

Thanks a lot for having me. I'm excited to be here, Ben.

[D]

We're excited for this combo. And Matt and I, we, you know, you know, we like craft beer, and everyone knows that at this point, no secret, but we spent. I think the current beer is just one single can of beer, and it costs like $7.50, which a lot of people would say, that's. That's crazy. I can get a 12.

[B]

Is that the accurate price tag right there?

[D]

I think so, yeah. It literally says $7.29.

[B]

$7.29.

[D]

It's not cheap. That's rid. So we spend too much, some would say, on craft beer. But we're also being intentional. We're saving and investing for the future while we spend exorbitantly on something that we care about. I'm curious, what's that for you? What's your craft beer equivalent?

[C]

My craft beer equivalent, I'd say would definitely have to be strategy board games. So I'm outing myself as a huge dork here, but those sometimes can go for like a hundred bucks a pop. But well worth it. Hours of family fun.

[B]

Okay, which game? Because I think I share this love. We also are nerdy, are lovers of nerdy board games.

[D]

But when we go on our beach vacation every night, every night we're there, we're playing a nerdy board game. Carcassonne, Sellers of Catan. We're playing Puerto Rico.

[B]

Acquire. Acquire has a big one. So what game?

[C]

You guys know the whole gamut then. This is normally people's eyes glaze over when I. Yeah, yeah.

[B]

They're like, wait, are you talking about Monopoly? We're like, yeah, no, no, we're not. Like, leave that for the kids. Like in the 90s.

[D]

Come on.

[B]

Come on.

[D]

Risk is for children. We're talking about the big ones.

[C]

Yeah.

[B]

Are you talking about Clue? No. Okay, so what game are you dropping 100. 100 plus dollars on a couple?

[C]

Yeah, it's like Kickstarter stuff. So I'll do these like, you know, big kind of space opera sort of games or whatever. And so it'll be, you know, sometimes one or 200 bucks, and then you got to wait a couple of years for them to actually make it. But that's, you know, my Wife and I, our idea of a great Saturday night is like sitting down over the board game table and trying to prove to other who's smarter.

[D]

So that's.

[C]

That's kind of our jam.

[B]

Who is the most cutthroat?

[D]

She lets you win. She lets you win sometimes though, right?

[C]

Yeah, once. It's funny you mentioned Carcassonne. Like, we almost lost our relationship over that game because I just.

[B]

We were playing normally, it's Settlers, the folks are going after each other's throats for.

[C]

We were. We were like trading games, you know, kind of evenly matched. And then she started just whipping me on the regular, and I was like, what is going on? And I. And then I discovered she had the app on her phone. And so she was just getting all kinds of extracurricular.

[B]

She was honing. Honing her skills. Yes, dude, I love it. Okay, so final question related to board games. What. What game are you currently playing? A whole lot, either with her or with friends?

[C]

Yeah, I'd say one of our recent favorites has been a game called Ark Nova. It's like a zoo building game of all things. So you, you.

[D]

I'm writing that down right now.

[C]

Yeah, you kind of whatever. Building closures and put animals in them and. And I love it. Got to catch them all type of thing.

[B]

So nerdy, so dorky, but I. Dorky, but I love it. The last one we cracked open for the first time was Wingspan, which.

[C]

Yes. Yeah, we love that one.

[D]

One of the prettiest. That's for sure.

[B]

Prettiest. And you get to learn because you're learning about these actual species of birds and the eggs and how much they typically lay and where they nest and I mean, it's right. It's thematically aligned.

[D]

Yeah, that's right.

[B]

Okay, before we completely lose all of our listeners, we got to start talking about money. And for you personally, I mean, like, you said that you were pursuing what you would call conventional success for most of your life. Like, you had good grades, the right school, big time job, but you found that it wasn't fulfilling. So what did you find was missing? And specifically, like, what caused you to have like a come to Jesus moment?

[C]

Yeah, it's a good question. First of all, I felt very strange and like, almost ungrateful because I was super, super lucky to have that position, you know, to be in that role. It was kind of like a pinch sort of job that I felt like a lot of people would kill for. And so I was wondering, what's wrong with me? Like, why can't I appreciate this, but what really kind of made it come to a head was, you know, I was watching people, you know, either. Either retire or, you know, move on. And so I watched one guy in particular retire at, like, 45, and he was, you know, minted, had a bunch of money and all that kind of stuff. And so most people look at him and go, man, nice job. You know, you win the game. And I was looking at him and going, like, geez, I hope that's not me. I hope by the time I'm 45, you know, I've done more than just this. And that was kind of a shot across the bow for me where I knew, you know, I had known for a while that it wasn't what I wanted to do with my. With my entire life, but that. That really kind of, you know, set things in motion where I realized, like, okay, how do I not become this. You know, how do I not become this person who's only done this? How do I. How do I make something and help people by the time I get there?

[D]

Hmm. So your desire to go out there, strike it on your own, start your own business, start Chronify, Was that more because you didn't think your Wall street job was doing good in the world and you wanted to do good in the world, or was it more because you wanted more control over your time? Like, was it. Was it both? How. Yeah. What was the thought process there?

[C]

Yeah, you're pointing at a little bit of circularity here. I mean, because the very product that I'm out there, you know, out there trying to. Trying to put into the world now is that is based on the precursor to. Or. Yeah, it's based on the product that I used to convince myself that it was time to move on. And so the. I would say. I would say this. I realized early on that. That I wasn't doing something that I always wanted to do or that I. That I wasn't going to want to do forever. And with that, I realized, okay, well, I want to make sure I don't get on this, like, slippery slope. I want to make sure that I don't wind up, you know, just one more year, One more year, one more year. And then suddenly I wake up and I'm 55, and I haven't, you know, gone out and started a business, which is what I always wanted to do. I developed an overweening interest in personal finance throughout the first few years that I was on the job, and it took a while for it to kind of percolate I read a book called you'd money or your life, and that kind of planted the seed for me where I was just like, oh, okay. Now that I think of it in terms of time, then all of a sudden it's like, okay, the answers just drop right out. And so for me, I remember being literally at the Goldman gym, like working out, googling, like your money or your life app, and there was nothing. And so I decided to. That was kind of what planted the seed for me that I should maybe try and build something very cool.

[B]

So real quick then, what age were you when you started having those internal conversations where you were like, okay, I don't want to do the one more year thing. Do you remember about when that was, like, how far along into your career.

[D]

I guess, were you?

[C]

Yeah, I would say I first realized about two years into my career. I remember grabbing a friend of mine from college and saying like, dude, if I'm still doing this at 32, grab me by the collar and make sure that I justify myself because I can see where this movie's going. Yeah, but you know, there's. There's always, there's always insecurity, scarcity kind of mindset that makes you go, ah, well, maybe do I have enough? Can I move on? You know, one more year? One more year?

[D]

Well, yeah, you also don't want to kind of toss away. You've worked so hard for this for so long and you're like, I'm here. You don't want to be ungrateful. And maybe that desire to, to kind of, I don't know, continue down the path that you've set out for yourself and not blaze a new trail, I think that can be caused a lot of people to stay put too. And I guess I'm curious too. When we're talking about the book, you, money or your life, the main life changing concept for a lot of people is thinking about their money in terms of life hours. Like, what was that like for you reading that book? And how did that specifically kind of change your trajectory and your thought process?

[C]

I think the biggest thing was just simplicity. I'm a stickler for simplicity. You know, there's just so much out there, there's so much data, especially now that it's just like you can be drowning in too much information. It's like, you know, analysis paralysis type of thing. And for me, what that book did was it kind of knocked things into line in terms of realizing, look, you can really distill everything down to one kind of single kernel of truth. Here, here's how many years you've got in the bank. And with that, it's just like, oh, okay. All these numbers that often make people's eyes glaze over, you know, net worth expenses and stuff like that. If you can distill it all down into one little simple idea that actually has intuitive hooks, you know, people can imagine what it's like to, you know, relax for seven years. Then if you've got seven years in the bank, then that's what that says. And by the way, then that factors in everything that it needs to factor in. You know, if your wealth goes up, great, it's factored in. And if your expenses go down, awesome, that's also factored in. And so for me, it was just the beautiful simplicity of not having to track 19 different things, but being able to distill it all down to one.

[B]

Yeah. So is that what you would tell folks? Like, I think there might be a lot of listeners tuning in right now and they're thinking, man, I would love to quit my day job. I would love to maybe take a more entrepreneurial path. Would you want them to have a certain number of months or even years of living expenses set aside if I guess a, what position were you in? And then what do you think folks should maybe have in the bank before they kind of start going out on their own to pursue something that is a little more life giving?

[C]

Yeah, it's, it's totally situational. You know, the conventional wisdom for, you know, what do you want to have is called like a, whatever, a six month emergency fund or something. If you're going to do something entrepreneurial, it's way higher than that. You know, you're not going to get a business off the ground and fully running in only six months. And so, you know, you might want to have a year or two at least set aside that you can, that you can, you know, really get it going. But there's no, there's no hard and fast rule. And so much of it is due to, you know, if you're starting a business on the side and you've got an income, then that provides you more flexibility. If you are a risk taker and you're willing to eat ramen for three years or whatever, then great. You know, like for me I had to kind of oversolve because, you know, I had two little kids, now I've got three.

[D]

Three.

[C]

And we were going to move across the country and start a new lifestyle. So I had to build in some buffer. I felt really lucky because, you Know, I started my business in 2020, like January of 2020. And so I was planning on, you know, working from home and living off savings for a couple years. And then all of a sudden, you know, Covid and kind of a lot of people had to do something pretty similar to that, you know, work from home and in some cases live off of savings. And so I was fortunate, but I'm kind of a risk averse guy by default orientation. And so I felt like I kind of had to, had to oversolve. But different people, you know, different strokes for different folks.

[D]

Yeah. All right, understatement of the year. Like, getting a startup off the ground isn't easy, right? And so like you're, you're living that life, you're kind of in the middle of it still. And it can take a lot of time too, right? To, and especially when it, when it's kind of your fourth baby, really, you're like, oh man. Like you, you have a vested interest on multiple fronts for seeing this, for seeing this thing succeed. So be honest with us. Have you been able to strike the balance you were looking for now that you're out on your own? You're like, I quit this job because I was working too many hours. Are you working too many hours doing the thing that you love now, or have you been able to find a good balance?

[C]

There's, it's a continuous process to try and find that balance. You know, there's good parts of what I'm doing now and there's bad parts of what I'm doing now. When I think back to my time at Goldman, for example, you know, Friday night when I walked out of the office, poof. I didn't think about work until Monday morning. And now it's the exact opposite. You know, no matter what I'm doing, there's always this background process running like, oh, how can I tweak this? How can I make that better? How can I, you know, increase the value of this product, et cetera? Because it's, it's, you know, like you said, it's my baby. And so there's this double edged sword because on the one hand, you know, it's like it's harder for me to be, you know, at home and present with my kids than it would be if I had a job that I didn't care about, that's for sure. But on the other hand, it's like they get to witness a father who's in love with his work, whereas if I was just kind of workaday, humdrum you know, waddling to the office and coming back a little bit mad, then, you know, that wouldn't be. That wouldn't be sending the right message to them about the role that work is supposed to occupy in their life either. And so it's a balance to be struck. I definitely have not cracked that nut yet. And it's kind of like raising a kid where it's just like, even if you. Even if you do figure out the perfect balance, you're not necessarily. It's not going to be an always and forever thing. It's like two weeks from now, boom, something happens, and you got to figure out a new one. So it's. It's a work in progress.

[D]

It's like a pendulum in a lot of ways.

[B]

Yeah, well, and then you've written about this as well, but, like, the risk versus reward isn't quite there a lot of times when it comes to folks taking the standard nine to five jobs. You kind of hinted at this, but, like, there's. There's almost like an obsession with safeness, like reducing risk, safety ism in our country today. And you've kind of talked about how you're kind of missing out on a lot that doesn't necessarily have to come from entrepreneurship, but there is a lot that you realize when you are starting your own business. Like, the highs are higher, maybe the lows are lower potentially as well, but you have the ability to tap into something that gives you. That truly gives you joy. Is that something that you feel like you've seen as opposed to folks who just are kind of going along with the stock lifestyle? And because of that, they're not really questioning how it is that they're making money. And they're also sometimes not questioning how they spend their money as well.

[C]

Yes. I mean, 100% entrepreneurship is not for the faint of heart because for, you know, it'll be six weeks of just, this is ridiculous. I got to get a real job. You know, this is never going anywhere, followed by like, the best 48 hours in company history. And so it's like this, you know, punctuated equilibrium of like, you know, you zoom out and look at how things have gone over the last six to 12 months. It's like, holy cow, I've actually been doing this. It's working. But the lived experience week in, week out is just exhausting. You know, it's just this. This constant string of. It's. It's kind of like if you're, whatever, watching your investment accounts every day, the way that we're Wired as humans is that if it's up 50 cents one day and down 50 cents the next day, you come out feeling a little bit mad because, like, bads way more than goods, psychologically speaking. But when you zoom out and, you know, go back and look at your, at your brokerage account after six months or after six years, it's like, oh, wow, okay, good. I made a good decision.

[D]

Yeah. All right, so you brought up investing, so I'm going to go there now. Our friend Doc G, he talks about front loading, the sacrifice. And it is of course true that a dollar invested when you're 19 is going to do more for you than a dollar invested at age like 49. Right. We've heard more recently about something called consumption smoothing, where some economists have said, hey, instead of investing early, maybe you kind of borrow a little more when you're younger. Don't invest quite as much, start investing in your 40s. How do you think about finding a happy medium, though, in those early years when investing is important? But I don't know, it's also possible to take it to the extreme.

[C]

Yeah, I'd say one, do as I say, not as I do. I screwed this up big time. When I was in my initial career. Part of it was because I really wasn't enjoying my job as much as I should. And so I had this, you know, if I'm, if I'm unhappy at work, then I thought that the cure for that was like, okay, sprint for the finish line and like, get out of here as soon as possible. And so that what that's a recipe for is like, okay, you're unhappy at work. So, yeah, let's go ahead and make ourselves unhappy at home, too. And that's gonna, that's gonna somehow unhappy at work plus unhappy at home, that just makes you unhappy. And so you definitely don't want to be like, sprinting for the finish line and just like, is scrimping and saving and, you know, investing every single little penny and not being willing to, you know, experience your life. But at the same time, I, I kind of get queasy when I, when I hear people advocating, you know, that kind of economist dictum of, of consumption smoothing to like. Oh, yeah, borrow. Borrow to the hilt. You know, like when you're 22. And then don't worry, it'll all work.

[D]

Out when you're, yeah, you're always going to make more and you'll be able to overcome the borrowing that you did when you were younger.

[C]

Right. And so I would say, I would say you know, live within your means first and foremost. You know, you want the bank account to, to be going up, not down. And so live within your means. And that means different things for different people. But then I think it's just as important, especially for people who are wired like I am, which is, you know, like kind of caveman style, like saving good, spending, bad type of stuff.

[D]

When people ask me what's been like, I always say caveman.

[B]

That's my initial response.

[D]

Exactly.

[B]

The old Geico commercial. Yeah, just like that, right?

[C]

Exactly. Bingo. And so that. That's me. And so for people who are wired like that, I think oftentimes you need some encouragement to, to take some ownership of your spending and do that craft beer equivalent type of thing. Because honestly, for me, when I kind of what made the lights come on was I was realizing myself like, dude, okay, you're afraid to spend $80 on this board game. What are you, what are you teaching yourself? If you, if you like, if you defer this purchase, if you just, like, don't do this thing that's going to make you happy? Well, one, you're just not going to be happy now because you're not gonna be able to, like, you know, play this game with your wife or whatever. And two, you're training yourself to think that, you know, happiness is cheaper than it is for you. The reality is if, if happiness for you guys is like craft beer every day, then you don't want to lie to yourself about what that happiness costs. You want to, like, pull the first fruits of retirement forward and experience them every day until retirement. In addition to when you're, you know, sipping them on the beach or whatever.

[B]

It'S just the head off the top of the beer. We're not even pulling the full first fruits forward, Ben. It's just, it's just a little bit, just a little bit of the taste. But bingo, what you're talking about here, I guess up until now we've been talking about earning money in career and finding fulfillment there, but a lot of what you're talking about here has to do with how it is that you spend your money. And so we're actually going to spend a lot more of our conversation with you talking about just that we will get to more on time and money with Ben Miller right after the break. If you've ever hired for your small business, you know how important it is to find the right person. That's why LinkedIn Jobs is stepping things up with their new AI assistant. So you can feel confident that you are finding top talent that you can't find anywhere else. The best part is those great candidates are already on LinkedIn. In fact, employees hired through LinkedIn are 30% more likely to stick around for at least a year compared to those hired through the leading competitor. That's a big deal whenever you hire counts.

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[B]

That's right, hire right the first time. Post your job for free at LinkedIn.com howtomoney Then promote it to use LinkedIn Jobs new AI assistant, making it easier and faster to find top candidates. That's LinkedIn.com howtomoney to post your job for free. Terms and conditions apply. This message is sponsored by Navy Federal Credit Union. As the holiday season rolls around, Navy Federal knows that you strive to do everything you can to bring cheer and joy to your loved ones. And as a credit union dedicated to serving all veterans, active duty and their families, they understand that every little bit counts.

[D]

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Give joy, get joy. Join now@navy federal.org @navy federal Credit Union, the members are the mission. Navy Federal is insured by NCUA. Visit Navy federal.org cashrewards for details. Cash back terms and conditions apply. Offer ends January 1, 2026. Hey y', all, it's Joel and Matt from how to Money. Joel, you were just out in Seattle recently, weren't you?

[D]

Yeah, man, it was amazing. I went for one of the most glorious runs of my life along the Waterfront. It had everything you could ask for. Crisp air, mountain views, fairies gliding across the water.

[B]

Beautiful. I love it, man. Yeah, for us, our road trip through Charlottesville was a highlight. We actually splurged on a custom built Airbnb and it was well worth it. The house had these unique touches Like a poured concrete counter there in the kitchen with a built in drying rack. Super functional. It even inspired some ideas for our house.

[D]

Plus, with a kitchen like that, you save money eating out.

[B]

Yes, exactly. That's what struck me. What seems normal to a homeowner, it can be the thing that makes a guest trip really special.

[D]

Which is why hosting makes sense.

[B]

Right?

[D]

Travelers are looking for those authentic, memorable spaces. And. And if you don't have time to manage all that well, Airbnb's co host feature makes it easy. A local co host can help with everything from creating the listing to keeping your place running smooth.

[B]

Yeah. So while you are off making your travel memories, your home could be helping someone else make theirs. Find a co [e-mail] host.

[D]

All right, let's keep talking about time and money, such an important relationship. And some people, I might think, Matt, that you and I think that money is the most important thing. Heck, we've been doing a podcast about money for almost going on six years now. We talk about it three times a week. Right. And yes, money is clearly an important thing, but we always talk about it as a tool. Right? It's a tool that allows us to pursue other things in our lives, some of which are more important. And so we're talking with Ben Miller about why time is actually more important with money than money. And so, Ben, why is this, this connection between time and money? Why is it so important for us to make that connection? And for instance, like a recurring hundred dollar monthly expense, it might make us feel a certain way, but then thinking about it in terms of how many hours of our life that spending is costing us, that it kind of hits us differently, doesn't it?

[C]

Absolutely. And I think ultimately all of this stuff hinges around the concept of enough. You know, that's like a really tricky word when it comes to finance. And so if you don't have a good framework, you're just not able to really understand what enough even means. And so ultimately, what enough means is going to be different for different people. That's going to be based primarily upon their spending. And then they're going to have to apply some kind of a multiple of, okay, here's how many years I think I'm going to live during retirement or whatever it may be. But we don't want to get complicated here. The idea here is that when you think about spending your money, you want to make sure that it's thing a good, good deal. You want to make sure you're not like frittering it away on things that you don't actually care about. But likewise, you don't want to make the other type of error either. You don't want to refuse to spend money on things that are actually good for you. So use that, you know, $100 recurring expense. Like, I think about, for example, date night with my wife, and so I'm a guy who, like, feels a little bit queasy every time a dollar leaves his wallet. And so normally when I, like, you know, pay for something when I'm signing the check, I'm just, like, kind of shaking my head, you know, hopefully inside my head and not actually at the people that I'm at dinner with, but, like, I'm thinking, like, oh, gosh, Ben, you really screwed this one up. Like, there's more money leaving. Like, the money's going the wrong way.

[D]

Shouldn't have got the appetizer right.

[C]

Exactly, exactly. And so for me, that's the way that I'm wired. But when I understand things in terms of time, then all of a sudden I can have ownership and permission because, for example, that. That, you know, $100 expense, I might look at that, run the numbers, and go like, okay, that is delaying my retirement by three months. Just, let's just say then if I look at that, you know, date night with my wife and go, okay, this is delaying my retirement by three months, then I go, okay, is that scary to me? Well, one, I love my job. And so, like, you know, delaying my retirement is not really all that scary. And two, investing in the relationship, that's the bedrock of my family. And so if anything, I'll do it twice as much. Like, this is a great deal for me. So now when I sign that check, instead of just feeling like, ugh, wrong. Money's going the wrong way, I feel like, okay, good, this is approved. This is, you know, kind of been blessed by the system. And it's something that I. That I feel good about rather than bad about.

[B]

Yeah. And kind of going back to what you're saying about knowing what it is to have enough. And as far as delaying your retirement by a certain number of months or even years, I guess, for maybe a giant purchase. But you write about, too, how it's not even about reaching some sort of golden date. Right. Like, within the fire community, it's like, what's your number? And you talk about how it's not often about that and on how to money. Like, when we talk about it, we call it the. Basically how financial independence exists as a spectrum, but you talk about it within the sort of context of being able to curate problems, can you talk about some of the other benefits? How even if you're not necessarily focused on a hard retirement date, sort of like. Like, you're not, because you love the work that you do, but it does provide some other benefits.

[C]

I love that. I mean, curating problems is. Is a concept that's near and dear to my heart. Like, I think that one of the best things about, you know, quote, unquote, financial independence, and I don't want to creep people out. Like, you know, there's. There's a lot of, like, there's a lot of baggage that comes with this term of financial independence. So what I'm talking about when I say that is, like, basically having enough money to choose how you spend your time, just to. Just to put it in broad strokes. And so one of the best parts about that state of the world is being able to determine, you know, just based on your sole discretion, what's worth your time and what's not worth your time. And so it's not like this abject refusal to ever earn a dollar again. It's just the state of the world where you can determine, like, this is a problem that I really want to spend some time on. This is something that animates me and makes me feel good versus this is something that I wish somebody else would do, you know, because that's. That's this kind of illusion. People think that, like, work is the enemy. And, you know, I can tell by the, you know, the product that you guys create and how much joy that it's obvious that you take in creating it that this is not something that's like, oh, yeah, if you, you know, $10 million dropped out of the sky tomorrow. It's not like Joel and Matt would be like. Like, peace. You guys are.

[D]

We're out.

[C]

Last episode's coming out today.

[B]

Best Friends out forever. Exactly. Like, you.

[C]

You would probably kind of keep on going, you know, maybe at a reduced pace or something. I don't know. But, like, you'd. You know, if you're creating something that you actually like seeing in the world, then it doesn't have to be all about money. So I hope that answers your question.

[B]

Yeah, yeah, no, absolutely.

[D]

Talk to us about mindset. And I don't want to get super froufoo here or anything like that, but, like, it's. It's true that we're humans. We can't necessarily change how we think overnight. And even if we did, right, it wouldn't make our Paycheck, fatter immediately. It doesn't solve everything. But our mindset plays a role in the kind of progress that we make. So how do you think about the scarcity mindset and how it can maybe stymie our journey towards financial freedom? Right, like, if we're too focused on that, like, oh man, my dollars are going to run out. Like, it can almost create like mental problems.

[B]

Are you ever on our path actually? Free, right?

[D]

Yeah, exactly.

[C]

And I think that's beautiful because you're pointing at the fact that there's a ditch on both sides of the road. You clearly don't want to be like, setting yourself up for a cat food retirement, you know, just like completely blowing all your money on stuff you don't care about. But likewise, you don't want to, you know, just wind up that guy who's got $7 million in the bank and was, you know, was not spending any of it and wasn't able to enjoy any of it because, like, people miss that second leg of the swap, that second leg of the transaction. You know, if you're good about money, then you're building up your bank accounts, you're investing, you're doing all that type of stuff. But like, savings are always and everywhere just delayed consumption. Like, that's all you're doing when you're saving money is you're deferring it to some future date. And so that scarcity mindset type of thing, people kind of get lulled into this false sense of things when they think that budgeting is like a symptom of a scarcity mindset or something like that. It's not by budgeting or by, you know, saving money or by, you know, considering the future. I think it's actually evidence of an abundance mindset because you're, you know, you're admitting to yourself that there is a future worth saving for. And so I think it's important for people to strike that balance the right way. Not spend too little, not spend too much, you know, kind of trying to find their own goldilocks zone of being able to, you know, spend in a way that is aligned with their goals is going to get them where they want to be eventually, but be able to enjoy, be, enjoy, be able to enjoy their lives along the way. I did things backwards. I was like, financial independence asap. This was my mentality back in the day was like, okay, financial independence asap. And then happiness eventually. And that was for me, completely backwards. You know, I wound up having to get off that train and realizing that like okay. This is not sustainable. Like, I'm going to burn myself out before I get to, you know, fire or whatever it is. So I need to take a more measured path, you know, build a machine that's actually going to be able to sustain itself all the way to conclusion.

[D]

Yeah, man. I think some of the saddest things to me when I read some posts in the fire Reddit forums and stuff of people who don't spend too much time there. Yeah, yeah, right. No, I don't. But I'll see a case.

[B]

Cautionary tale.

[D]

Yeah, cautionary tale of somebody who. Who says, listen, I bought into this hook line, it sinker, and I missed a bunch of important time. I didn't go to family events that. Because I was too scared to buy a plane ticket. My girlfriend dumped me. That's the story. Because, I mean, there's all of these kinds of stories out there that you're right. There's a ditch on both sides. And so that is like what we're always talking about here on the show is the balanced middle where, yeah, have a. Have a high savings rate, but don't forsake the important stuff in the meantime on the road every. Every day, every minute is worth savoring. And if we're so heavily focused on the future, and I think Matt and I, we've probably been there different times, too, maybe not to as much of an extreme as some of these fire adherents, but you're missing out on a lot of the good and awesome things that you can enjoy now, too.

[C]

Absolutely.

[B]

Okay, so what you talk about is how not only do we need to own our saving and investing, but we also need to own our spending. Right. And that's just the language you give to being intentional with your spending. Oftentimes, folks are only focused on that acquiring side of the equation as opposed to the spending side of it. And so do you have any thoughts or any advice for folks on how it is that they can transition to spending more money? Right. As folks are starting to make that switch, you do have to be a little more intentional with how it is that you're spending money. Hopefully you are. There are small ways that you are spending even when you are young and you feel broken, but there are these small, tiny little splurges, but it's. Yeah, it exists on a spectrum. And as folks are achieving varying degrees of financial freedom, how do you encourage folks to think about spending more money than they're used to?

[C]

I mean, step one is knowing what you value. Step one is understanding, you know, for you as an individual, what are your priorities? What is it that you're actually all about? You know, and so if that's time with your family or if that is, you know, building some, building towards some fulfilling mission in the world, whatever it is, if you're spending money along those lines, then there's a good chance that there's a fair amount of alignment. You know, when I look at my habits, when I look at the types of things that I'm spending my money on, it's, it's again, it's a two edged sword because I'm trying to simultaneously identify things, the places that I can trim the fat, so to speak. Places that I go, oh, I didn't realize I'm spending so much money there. Okay, then I should probably, probably tone that down. You know, let's be more intentional in that zone. But I'm also looking for places that I can double down. I'm looking for places that I can go, oh, okay, this looks like an unusually good deal. You know, this, whatever, date night with my wife or a gym membership or whatever it may be, these positive habits, how can I lean into that and how can I find other things like that that are aligned with my priorities and things that I really want to, to be more about? Because, you know, if you want to figure out what's important to somebody, there's a good argument that you should just go look at their, you know, their credit card register and see what they've been spending their money on.

[D]

Yeah. And their calendar, whatever they've been spending their time doing.

[C]

Exactly.

[D]

We say something matters. Oh, time with my kids matters. Well, I don't know when's. How much time are you doing it? Right. Exactly. Like, did you, did you hop on the bike with them this. Over the weekend or whatever? I mean, yeah.

[B]

And I love that you focus so much on time, Ben, because in, because you might look at somebody's bank account and they may not actually be spending their money. Right. And so you have the ability to see from their spending, or specifically from their lack of spending, that man, what is it that you actually do value. Because there is a way to kind of choke that off. Whereas the time that, like our days, no matter what, we are spending our time doing something. Right.

[C]

So yes, we're forced to.

[D]

No matter.

[B]

Like, you can't stop time. It is ticking along no matter what.

[D]

And so even if you're Netflix and chilling literally the whole day.

[B]

Yes. Or even if you have a completely. You're like, oh, I can't wait for Saturday the calendar is completely wide open. Well, you're going to do something with that time. And so what you actually do with that, I think, does reflect on what it is that you truly do value.

[D]

Yeah, 100%. I think if you were to sum it up like we are kind of the sum of our habits, the things that we spend our time doing, we kind of, I don't know, become, in a sense, formed by those habits. Right. And there are some habits that have negative financial consequences. In the software that you developed, Chronoi, you talk about the impact of habits on our lives. How do you do that in the software? And then how do you help people understand their habits and the financial and time consequences of them?

[C]

Sure. I think, well, unsurprisingly, it's all about time. And so when I think of. When I think of a habit and you think about something as tricky as human behavior, changing a habit is not easy. And so what we try and do is we try and marry together the left brain spreadsheet, y sort of numbers side of the equation with the right brain, you know, holistic, emotional side of things, that's where you're gonna make all your decisions. Anyway. So let's work through, like an example. If you have a habit, let's say you, you know, at the office, you. You get like a fancy sandwich at work for lunch or that type of thing, and you're thinking about a habit change, you're going like, okay, my waistline and. And my budget are saying that maybe I should maybe, maybe think about this habit. Then you might think about packing lunch to work, for example. And if you do that, then you may get to the end of the month and you realize, like, okay, I saved $200 by packing my lunch to work instead of buying this fancy sandwich. And if you do that, then if you've made some progress and you've already kind of accumulated some investments and stuff, you might look at your brokerage account at the end of the month and go like, it's up or down by five, ten grand. And it's like, why did I do this to myself? Why did I deprive myself of this, you know, midday treat or whatever? But you're kind of missing the. The missing the point because you're. You're looking at. You're going $200 versus 10 grand. This is out of my control. Why do I care? But the reality is the power of habit, especially as it relates to time, is that. That, you know, $200 a month is $200 a month. And so that's $2,400 a year. Which, if you're going to invest money and try and live off your money forever, then that requires, you know, assume the 4% rule, 4% real return after taxes or whatever, then you need $60,000 to fund that habit in perpetuity. And so it's no longer comparing this $200 savings with, you know, this 10 grand that your brokerage account went up or down. You're comparing, you know, this, this 10 grand that your brokerage account went up or down with a $60,000 impact of this habit. And so what we kind of do by looking at things in terms of time is right size, all of this, and adjust for the fact that, look, if you, if you decrease your expenses, then, yes, you know, you're running faster toward the finish line. But the beautiful thing is when you metric it in terms of time, you also see that the finish line is running towards you because if your expenses go lower, then enough is lower, and if enough is lower, it takes less time to get that there.

[D]

Well, that sounds like, I don't know, make you feel better knowing that not only are you getting closer, but like the finish line is inching further in your direction, too. Ben, we got a couple more questions for you, including curious to hear your take on paying for convenience. You're essentially buying time back. I would love to hear your thoughts on that. We'll get to a couple questions on that front right after this.

[B]

If you've ever hired for your small business, you know how important it is to find the right person. That's why LinkedIn Jobs is stepping things up with their new AI assistant. So you can feel confident that you are finding top talent that you can't find anywhere else. The best part is those great candidates are already on LinkedIn. In fact, employees hired through LinkedIn are 30% more likely to stick around for at least a year compared to those hired through the leading competitor. That's a big deal. Whenever you hire counts.

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[B]

That's right. Hire right the first time. Post your job for [e-mail] howtomoney. Then promote it to use LinkedIn Jobs new AI assistant, making it easier and faster to find top candidates. That's LinkedIn.com howtomoney to post your job for free. Terms and conditions apply. This message is sponsored by Navy Federal Credit Union. As the holiday season rolls around, Navy Federal knows that you strive to do everything you can to bring cheer and joy to your loved ones. And as a credit union dedicated to serving all veterans, active duty and their families, they understand that every little bit counts.

[D]

That's why, for a limited time, you could earn a 200 cash bonus when you spend $2,500 with Navy Federal's cash rewards and cash rewards plus cards in the first 90 days. But the giving doesn't stop there. You could also earn up to 2% unlimited cash back with these cards. So saving up for whatever the season brings just got a little easier.

[B]

Give joy, get joy. Join now@navy federal.org @navy federal Credit Union. The members are the mission. Navy Federal is insured by NCUA. Visit navyfederal.org cashrewards for details. Cash back terms and conditions apply. Offer ends January 1, 2026. Hey y', all, it's Joel and Matt from how to Money. Joel, you were just out in Seattle recently, weren't you?

[D]

Yeah, man, it was amazing. I went for one of the most glorious runs of my life, along the waterfront. It had everything you could ask for. Crisp air, mountain views, fairies gliding across the water.

[B]

Beautiful. I love it, man. Yeah, for us, our road trip through.

[D]

Charlottesville was a highlight.

[B]

We actually splurged on a custom built Airbnb and it was well worth it. The house had these unique touches like a poured concrete counter there in the kitchen with a built in drying rack. Super functional. It even inspired some ideas for our house.

[D]

Plus, with a kitchen like that, you save money eating out.

[B]

Yes, exactly. That's what struck me. What seems normal to a homeowner. It can be the thing that makes a guest trip really special.

[D]

Which is why hosting makes sense, right? Travelers are looking for those authentic, memorable spaces. And if you don't have time to manage all that well, Airbnb's co host feature makes it easy. A local co host can help with everything from creating the listing to keeping your place running smooth.

[B]

Yeah, so while you are off making your travel memories, your home could be helping someone else make theirs. Find a co [e-mail] host. All right, back to our conversation with Ben Miller. And Ben, right before the break. Joel, you know we were talking about your app Chrono Fi. Personally, I was secretly hoping that one of your craft beer equivalents was going to be watches. Like, nice, because I don't think we've ever had anybody on the show where they were like, oh, I like to collect vintage Rolexes or like, oh, yeah, I've got a bunch of pocket watches, Omega Speedmasters or something like that. I only say this because there's a brief period of time where I really got into them and I thought, is this something? Am I going to be like a watch guy? And I was like, no way. These things are way too expensive.

[D]

It would be a fitting hobby for you, though, Ben. It would be.

[B]

I would.

[C]

I'm ashamed to say. I've just got a Fitbit. That's. That's what I'm rocking.

[B]

Hey, I've got a bracelet that my daughter made on my wrist.

[D]

There you go.

[B]

That's even better. But, Ben, like, different optimization gurus out there, like, they've kind of created a cult around productivity. And oftentimes you can kind of enter that space when you're talking about time. And it's our belief that, I think oftentimes this goes overboard, and it leads to many folks to just like a nose to the grindstone mentality where you are foregoing any pleasures in the here and now. So some optimization is helpful, but do you think it can be overdone?

[C]

Optimization is something that can absolutely be overdone. I think people who are wired, like, I think you guys are, and like, I am, you know, there's a. There's a temptation to really. To really go ham on optimization. But you gotta. You gotta make sure that you're, you know, accounting for your humanity here. Like, you're not a robot. It's not a. It's not a. It's not a matter of putting in the right code and then just executing until you die. It's. It's about finding something that's not only, you know, gonna get you where you're going and do it on time, but also, you know, in being able to enjoy and savor it all along the way. Because ultimately, like, you get to the end of the end of your life on your deathbed, all that matters is human connection. Connection anyways. And so if you're. If you're optimizing for anything other than that, you're kind of messing it up.

[D]

Love that. Okay, let's talk about paying for convenience because it's saving you time, right? Which is, as we've said, kind of the most critical resource here. But Americans are also Spending a lot of money on convenience that they might not be able to afford. I'm thinking like, some kinds of paying for convenience make sense to me, but then other kinds make a whole lot less sense. Grubhub, for example, I don't get it. Like, I'm not going to do it it. But then there are other things where I do pay someone to, let's say, mow my lawn so that Saturdays I can spend on the hiking trails or with kids doing activities, stuff like that. What are your thoughts on paying for convenience and where do you draw the line?

[C]

Oh, man, I'm, I'm kind of an aw shucks Midwesterner. And so, like, I was feeling incriminated because, like, I still mow my lawn and it's probably a horrible use of my time. It's like I, I, it's different for different people, you know, for me, it's like I kind of look for those two furs or three furs in life where it's just like, okay, well, it might be, it might take me less time to drive to the gym, but maybe it's, you know, I'm going there anyways to exercise and so maybe I should walk. For me, I look at mowing my lawn under kind of like a similar rubric where it's just like, okay, well, I was going to get some physical activity. I might as well, you know, do something, do something productive with it. But in terms of paying for convenience, I think it's all about your value. Values. It's all about, you know, one, live within your means. That's rule number one. If you're breaking that one, like, sort that out before we get into this stuff. But if you're able to live within your means, then it's about figuring out what your, what your values actually are. And so, like, I think of one of the habits that always kind of comes up on the top of my charts. It's a fast casual restaurant called Cava. It's kind of like a Mediterranean Chipotle, actually. They just IPO'd. And so maybe more people think about them than I'm aware of. Anyway, anyways, I think of that and I go, okay, well, should I feel ashamed of this? You know, like, what are, what are we doing here? And really what it is, is it's a way for us to put food on the table that's, you know, clean, healthy and convenient without the cooking and cleaning, and just be able to kind of sit down with all five of us as a family and enjoy ourselves. And so I look at that and it's like, yes, we're paying more for convenience, but for us, it's mission aligned. And so it's. It's those. Those convenience things. Is. That's how I. That's the rubric that I evaluated under is, is does it align with my mission and can I afford it? And if both of those come back, yes, then go for it.

[D]

But do you get it delivered or do you go pick it up?

[C]

Oh, no, we pick it up. We're not.

[D]

Okay.

[C]

We're not crazy.

[D]

That's. That's what I like to hear.

[B]

It doesn't have that delivery money. Like, that's. That's a demarcation on the. The financial independence spectrum is how readily are you ordering food to be. Literally drop off.

[C]

Are you delivery fi.

[D]

Yeah, right. Yes. I don't know that I've ever got enough money in my bank account to overcome, like, the. What's. Like what's built inside of me. Right. To fork over those extra dollars.

[B]

Well, in particular, because if that doesn't align with your mission. So, like, I like how you said that, Ben, because that kind of goes back to, you know, when it comes to how we should think about spending more money. It's like, do I value this? It comes down to intention.

[C]

Yes.

[B]

Because it makes me think about. For a while there, I was cutting my own grass because. Not because I was afraid of spending the money, but because I wanted my kids to see me cutting the grass. There was a lesson there in seeing. And for them, in my mind, I.

[D]

Literally made them watch him the whole.

[B]

Time, sit here on the step and watch me watch dad cut the grass. But it's just. I don't know, there's a lesson to be taught there. And we're doing something similar right now when it comes to cleaning the house, because I'm like, we are in a financial position to where we could clean the house. But I want my kids to know what it is. Like, what it's like to clean the house. For them to pick up all their things, to dust their blinds. Like, literally. We did that this past Saturday, and I try to brainwash them a little bit. We call it super Saturday, but it's where we. That's good branding. In the morning, we go hog wild and we go to town on the cleaning, because we may not always do that, but at least for a period of time and maybe indefinitely, who knows? Because maybe they'll get so good at it that, I don't know, they're able to, like, knock it out Faster and faster. But I think, like you said, if you are able to align the mission of what it is that you are doing with how it is that you're spending money or not spending the money, I think that can lead to the justification to be parted with your dollars, whether, again, whether or not you're saving money or whether you are actually spending that money. But at the end of the day, I think that's what's at the core of this conversation.

[C]

Absolutely. And to Marie, to me, it comes back to curating your problems, because, you know, you might opt in to cleaning the house while you opt out at mowing the lawn. That's just fine. You know, like, there's. It's different strokes for different folks, and it's something that everybody kind of has to figure out for themselves. What's important to remember is that it is this balance that needs to be struck because you don't want to be, you know, just completely diying everything and shooting yourself in the foot. But, you know, by doing so, you don't want to be, whatever, stitching your own shoes and weaving your own clothes, you know, at least for most people. But at the same time, you don't want to be outsourcing everything either, because if you outsource every problem in your life, you've just gone and outsourced your life. You need to participate in solving some problems, because otherwise, like, frankly, there's nothing left to life. Once you subtract, you know, all the problems, what, are you just going to lay there blissed out and, like, looking at the sky like there's.

[D]

There's, like, Peter from Office Space. Right. I think some people that's, like, kind of their goal is. I think I'm gonna eventually get to that. But what you're alluding to is our lives never run out of problems. They just look different.

[C]

Yeah, exactly. And so it's. It's about choosing which problems you opt into and being able to choose. That is a wonderful thing.

[D]

Yeah, for sure. Ben, this has been a great conversation, man. Thank you so much for joining us. How can our listeners find out more about. About you, about your podcast, and about the Chronofi software that you've created?

[C]

Yeah, so we've got a podcast, the Chronofi podcast, aptly named. And the main way is you can come and check out Chronofi. In fact, if you go to chronofi.com howtomoney there's a 25% discount waiting for you. And that's good, as long as we're as long as we're alive and kicking so that it's not just the first month, it's good forever. So I would love to. I love what you guys are doing. I love the podcast. I love of, you know, the awareness that you guys are creating about the right way to think about this stuff. And so I really want to say I appreciate you having me on.

[D]

Oh, man. No, we're glad. Glad to do it. We're just two idiots learning on the fly. Honestly, as we're having these conversations, we're. And we're learning alongside our audience. We're not here from some perch up above trying to tell people how to live. And so that's why these conversations are so informative, helpful for Matt and I and hopefully for. For the audience, too. So, Ben, we appreciate you coming on, man. Thank you.

[C]

Thank you.

[B]

Nice, Joel. Man, it's always fun to talk with somebody who is, like, missionally aligned, right? Like, Ben is thinking about his money and his time in a similar way that we try to. That we strive to, at least. And I just said missionally aligned. And so I'm gonna go actually gonna go ahead and give my big takeaway, because stealing Ben's phrases now, it is. Well, one of the things that Ben said, like, when it comes to, like, that was the advice he had for trying to determine what it is that you're gonna spend money on. He said, like, what is it that you value? And similarly, what is it? Like, what is your mission gonna be? And this is a quick plug for the how to money mission statement. It takes some time. It takes a little bit of introspection.

[D]

Asking yourself the right questions in order.

[B]

To figure out what it is that your mission is gonna be in order to figure out subsequently then what it is that you're gonna spend your money on. And so that was my big, big takeaway. And that's not necessarily anything new. And so I'm gonna. I've got a new thought. Because when it comes to. A lot of times folks come to us with questions and they're like, okay, should I pay off this debt or should I do something else with it? And oftentimes what we say is that it depends. And specifically, it depends on what you're doing with that money. If you don't pay down that debt, right? It's like, sure, you could eliminate some student loans where you're paying 7%, but are you then going to take that money and invest it where you're based on historic returns, you're going to earn at least 7% because if not, it might be a waste of money. Right. And so let's take that same principle and apply it to time. I think that's another way that I'm going to start using to determine whether or not something is worth me spending the money on. Okay, I have now gained time in my life. I have essentially made time. Now what am I going to do with that time? Am I going to use that time and funnel it towards things that are, that I place a high value on, towards things that are missionally aligned with what I say are important? Or am I just going to like sit around like, like, you know, like you were saying? Am I going to end up on the couch browsing Netflix or something like that, looking for, you know, just ways to pass the time? Well, if that were to be the case, and that would be a poor use of spending that money, right? If I pay somebody to cut the yard and instead I'm using that time to watch more tv. Well, you know what, if you're, if you want to be like a movie critic or like, okay, then it could be missionally aligned, but for the vast majority of folk that, that's, it's just a default thing because, oh, the sofa and the couch, it's comfortable. I'm gonna sit there. Oh, the remote is just right here. And it's just something you kind of fall into. Folks are like, we're so tempted to just hit the easy button and we haven't thought through some of these more value driven ways that we could spend not only our money, but our time. And so I just want to take that principle from money and I want us to also apply it to time. What are you then going to take? The time that you've made or the time that you've saved, is that going to something that you actually value? Yeah, that's my big takeaway.

[D]

I think my big takeaway was when he said thinking in terms of time, it grants you ownership and permission. And so he gave the example of going out to eat, going on date night with his wife. And how when he thought, when he thinks of it as just dollars floating out, he gets nervous. Right. He's a reluctant spender, which I can identify with. But when he thinks about it in terms of, oh yeah, it's going to cost me some time off for retirement, off my future ability to not have to work, well, actually it's not as big of a deal because this is a really important thing and I like my work. And so it gave him actually the permission to spend money in a way that he was reticent to do. And I thought of that as being really empowering. And I think when we think about what something costs us, not just in terms of dollars and cents, but also in terms of hours of the day, it can really help us to reframe whether or not that thing is worth it or not. And so, yeah. Does it make sense to spend the money on a convenience or on a new item for your wardrobe? I don't know. Think about your hourly rate, maybe figure that out. We've talked about how to do that on a previous podcast. And think about it in terms of that. Wait a second, is that new dress or that new sport coat where 4.8 hours of my life. I don't know. Maybe not. Maybe that reframes the purchase a little bit, and it either helps empower you to spend in ways that you do value or kind of puts the kibosh on spending in a way that you're like, I don't think it's worth it.

[B]

Yeah. No, I love it, man. Yeah. Not surprisingly, our takeaways are related. Like, whereas, I mean, yours specifically, I think what you're kind of getting at are the emotions that can surround purchases, like feelings of freedom or empowerment or feelings of regrets or reluctance when it comes to spending our money. But if you are able to identify the things that you value in life, it makes not only saving but also spending your money so much easier. And I appreciate that Ben focuses on that side of the equation as much as hopefully we do. I think we spend a decent amount of time talking about that. That's why we talk about the craft beer equivalent.

[D]

Right.

[B]

Because we're looking for things from our guests that they value. You know, we want to frame the conversation around that. It's not just about saving and investing as much as humanly possible.

[D]

I feel like in recent years, I've been able to find more joy in spending in the ways that I care about, the ways that I say that I care about, instead of feeling reluctant to do those things largely through kind of changing my framework, but it's important to do. Yeah, you mentioned beer. Let's get back to the beer we had on the show. This is called Apricoave Tasty. It's by the veil. The veil, of course. We like spending ridiculous amounts of money on good craft beer from time to time, this one being no exception. What were your thoughts on the Spearmat?

[B]

Yeah, well, I like it in the label. Is it like an ice cream cone? It looks like, like the graphic. It's like rad ice cream cone guy. But it doesn't necessarily taste like sherbet or anything like that. But this is 100%, like a smoothie style sour. Lots of fruit going on, man. This thing poured quite thick and I was expecting it to be. To be a bit sweeter, but it was not. It had, like, I don't know, the kind of sweetness that you'd get from real fruit, which oftentimes isn't super sugary.

[D]

Not artificial, but really tasted like fruit in beer form.

[B]

Yeah, exactly. Yeah. Yeah. There's no high fructose corn syrup sugars in here.

[D]

This.

[B]

This feels like all true fruit sugar sugariness that they got going on here, but super good. I'm not normally a. Do you like apricots?

[D]

Oh, I was just about to say apricots are underutilized in beer. I think they're one of the best fruits to stick in a beer, and for some reason, very few people use them.

[B]

I'm not. Yeah, I'm not a huge fan. How do you eat apricots? Do you get them, like, dried out where they're like the. They're like giant.

[D]

Oh, I always get them in beer form. Oh, really? Yeah. No, like peaches. I feel like peaches are more normal. Right. Like, that's a fruit you eat. I love peach. I don't know. The last time I had an actual apricot, it was probably when I was a kid.

[B]

Oh, is it? I don't even know how to say it.

[D]

You can go either way.

[B]

Apricot, Apricot.

[D]

Tomato. Tomato.

[B]

I don't know, man. Yeah, it's not my favorite, but I definitely enjoyed it in beer form. Glad you and I got to enjoy. And you did taste some of those tropical guava notes going on there a little bit as well, but.

[D]

And definitely, like, an interesting body inconsistency, too.

[B]

So you're talking about the thickness.

[D]

Yeah. Yeah.

[B]

It truly is. Like, we're again, like, we cracked open an odwalla and now we're pouring one of those out or do this or naked juice. I don't even know if they make odd walla anymore. I don't know. Anyway, that's gonna be it for this episode. Enough about our beer. You can find the links that we mentioned up in our show [e-mail] including the link to the. The special offer that Ben's got out there for our listeners that never expires.

[D]

For the rest of time, which makes sense, given it all.

[B]

It all f. What do you. Do you also wish that he would have said watches. I feel like that would have been too like Batman villain ish if he was just like. If he's like obsessed with time, like flavor.

[D]

Flavor keeps one on his neck.

[B]

Yeah, but that's going to be it for this episode, buddy. Until next time, best friends out. Best friends.

[C]

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[A]

Sophie Cunningham from Show Me Something. Do you know the symptoms of moderate to severe obstructive sleep apnea, or osa, in adults with obesity? They may be happening to you without you knowing. If anyone has ever said you snored loudly, or if you spend your days fighting off excessive tiredness, irritability and concentration issues, it may be due to osa. OSA is a serious condition where your airway partially or completely collapses during sleep, which may cause breathing interruptions and oxygen deprivation. Learn more at don'tsleep on OSA.com this information is provided by Lilly, a medicine company at cvs. It matters that we're not just in your community, but that we're part of it. It matters that we're here for you when you need us, day or night, and we want everyone to feel welcomed and rewarded. It matters that CVS is here to fill your prescriptions and here to fill your craving for a tasty and, yeah, healthy snack. At cvs, we're we're proud to serve your community because we believe where you get your medicine matters. So Visit [e-mail] or just come by our store. We can't wait to meet you. Store hours vary by location. This is an iHeart podcast. Guaranteed Human.