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Use It Up, Wear It Out, Make It Do, or Do Without with Katy Wolk-Stanley (Bestie Ep) #1004
00:51:58
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- [00:00]
Katie Wolk Stanley
This is an iHeart podcast.
- [00:05]
Matt
From coast to coast. Unlock adventure at Red Lion Hotels by Sonesta, where restful sleep, friendly service and local knowledge await. Whether for business or pleasure, spend less and make more of every trip. When you sign up for Sonesta Travel Pass, you'll get the best rates instantly.
- [00:21]
Joel
Go to sonesta.com to book your stay and unlock the best rates with with Sonesta TravelPass here today, Rome tomorrow. Join now@sonesta.com terms and conditions apply. Where do you see your career in 10 years? What are you doing now to help you get there? The sooner you start enhancing your skills, the sooner you'll be ready. That's why AARP has reskilling courses in a variety of categories like marketing and management to help your income live as long as you do.
- [00:48]
Matt
That's right. AARP has a bevy of free skill building courses for you to choose from. Because the steps that you choose to take today will. Will help you to love what you do in the future. And that's why the younger you are, the more you need AARP. Learn more at aarp.org skills hey, it's.
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Joel
Joel and Matt from how to Money. Matt, you and I, we do a decent amount of traveling. So what's a place that you think lived up to the hype?
- [01:13]
Matt
That one is tough, but immediately what comes to mind is Scotland. The scenery in particular was insane. I'm specifically thinking about when we went and hiked Old Man's Store.
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Joel
Oh, yeah.
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Matt
Felt like we were on a completely different planet. It was otherworldly.
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Joel
Sure was. Yeah. Yeah. And our Airbnb on the Isle of Skye, man, it looked straight out this field into the sea. Total tranquility. And the castle gardens that we saw, man, it felt straight out of a fairy tale.
- [01:39]
Matt
It's true. Yeah. That trip showed us how big a difference the right place makes. And if you've got travel plans, don't let your place sit empty. Airbnb's co host feature makes it easy to earn a little cash. Or someone else manages the day to day.
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Joel
That's right. Find a co host@airbnb.com host. Welcome to how to Money. I'm Joel.
- [01:57]
Matt
And I am Matt.
- [01:58]
Joel
And today we're discussing how you can use it up, wear it out, make it do or do without with Katie Wol. Stan.
- [02:24]
Matt
That's right. Yeah. So everybody has heard of a consumer advocate before, right? Like, that's someone who helps to make sure that individuals are getting the best deal possible. Or maybe to make sure that the Quality of those products is up to snuff. I'm thinking of Consumer Reports, the countless reporting and tests that they perform on basically any item out there that you can buy. But you likely haven't heard of a non consumer advocate before. And that is who we're talking with today, our friend Katie Wilk Stanley. And Katie is the non consumer advocate. Her site is thenonconsumeradvocate.com and she helps people to learn to live on less and to do so in a way that lessens their environmental impact. She is an uber frugalite who hardly ever buys anything new. And she uses that superpower to help others to live on as little income as possible. So we're going to be talking about all these different tactics today that anyone out there can do. You know, whether you choose to, that's up to you. But we are excited for our conversation today. Katie, thank you for joining us on the podcast.
- [03:24]
Katie Wolk Stanley
Thank you so much, Joel and Matt, for having me.
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Joel
All right, Katie, I'm really curious to hear your answer to the question that we ask everybody when they come on the show because you approach buying things differently than pretty much any guest we've had on before. So Matt and I, we splurge on craft beer. And even while we're saving, investing for the future, is there something you splurge on in the here and now? I don't even know.
- [03:47]
Katie Wolk Stanley
Well what I splurge on here and now. It changes like through the years as I've gone through different points in life. At the moment, what I love to splurge on is my adult kids. Although at 24 and 27, they have gone to college, they've graduated, they have flown the coop, they work full time. I know that money is tight for them. And so I like to be able to take them out to eat. I like to slip them a little money here and there. They don't actually ask for money. And so they really appreciate it and it's a treat. My parents certainly, you know, did a little bit of that when I was young and just getting started in my adult life. And I'm happy and privileged to be able to do it for them.
- [04:33]
Matt
I love it. I guess that never goes away because there's a certain, you know, Joel having three, me having four kids. There's obviously a certain amount of that that we do now while still trying to find that balance of making sure that they understand that money, it doesn't just grow on trees. But maybe after you teach them those lessons, maybe you feel a little more freedom to Slip them some bills every.
- [04:53]
Katie Wolk Stanley
Now and then instead of chocolates for Valentine's Day, I gave me each a hundred bucks.
- [04:58]
Joel
There you go.
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Matt
I mean, that's. Come on. That's what. That's what we need. We don't need more sugar in our diets to cause all that inflammation or whatever it is. Anyway, Katie, your slogan, or, like the moniker that your site is, goes by is use it up, wear it out, make it do or do without. And we'll kind of COVID each of these. We'll cover the spectrum of how these kind of play out in your life. But can you first tell us why that has become your motto? Where did you come across that, and why is it, you know, that resonates.
- [05:26]
Katie Wolk Stanley
With you so deeply? It is a term that I certainly did not make up myself. You'll find it used during World War II. That was, like, an effort to get people to kind of be more thoughtful with how they were consuming goods that needed to be used for the war effort. But apparently it goes back farther than that. I've had different people say it was like, oh, that's an old Yankee term, or that's a New England term. So I've never really been able to find out where precisely it came up, but whenever I've come across that, even long before I was blogging, it just really resonated with me. And I was like, that is great. It's so, like, concise, and yet it's. It's wide and meaningful.
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Matt
Yeah.
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Joel
It feels so kind of, like, foreign to the way so many people live life today, though. So I. It. It is interesting that we were talking before we started recording about how about rabid fan bases? And I think the people who follow you, they are kind of rabid in that way, like, because. And I think part of it is because this slogan is so antithetical to kind of so much of the way our modern society functions.
- [06:37]
Katie Wolk Stanley
Yes. Especially when it's just so easy to. You don't even have to go on your computer to buy stuff. You've got that Amazon app and you just swipe to buy. It's so easy and frankly, so cheap. But, I mean, yeah, this thing is. How is this thing $7 and it includes shipping when you know the shipping costs more than that? If we were to ship it ourselves, people want a different perspective. And I think that is why people, as you said, are rabid. I would just say more loyal to me as not crazy.
- [07:14]
Joel
I don't know. I see them foaming at the mouth all the time. Following I Am curious though, because yeah, you say use it up, wear it out, make it do or do without. And so what makes your list of things that you will purchase brand new? Is there anything?
- [07:31]
Katie Wolk Stanley
Absolutely. There are absolutely things that I do buy new and I start. And by the way, I started the buy nothing new practice myself even before I started blogging. So that was, I think, like in 2006, 2007. I am not out there like, looking for a used toothbrush. So I would.
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Joel
That's good to know.
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Matt
All right.
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Katie Wolk Stanley
I would categorize that under, like a personal care item.
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Joel
Okay.
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Katie Wolk Stanley
Something that is like touching my body in that way. I don't mean like clothes, but floss.
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Joel
Toothbrush, undergarments, I think.
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Katie Wolk Stanley
Right, Undergarments. Socks, you know, although I have bought used socks before because you can just wash them and sometimes they look amazing.
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Matt
Well, and your feet are so periphery. I mean, you know, like, they're basically the closer you get to the core of your body. I too would also want, like, the further it gets away from my face or my mouth, I think I would be more comfortable with going a little more used.
- [08:29]
Katie Wolk Stanley
We bought a brand new mattress at this point, like two years ago. And although I have gotten a used mattress before and I got it from somebody that I knew, that was just not something I wanted to use. There's just too much. Once you start thinking of bed bugs, you can't stop thinking about it.
- [08:46]
Matt
Right. Well, that might be one area of where I've got you beat, Katie. Because we, my wife and I slept actually. Oh, shoot. We still have this mattress. Our daughter is now sleeping on it. But we got a used mattress for free from a.
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Katie Wolk Stanley
But you knew them.
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Matt
They're neighbors of a friend of ours, so they knew them. And so implicitly, I guess we trusted them. But I'm telling you, it's a good mattress and it's not something we regretted.
- [09:11]
Joel
Sometimes getting stuff off the side of the road can be a little daunting. I had a friend who brought home a chair that looked nice, but then it had bed bugs and that caused a whole mess. So you want to avoid that.
- [09:19]
Matt
Just burn the whole apartment down, I guess.
- [09:22]
Joel
Right.
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Matt
If that's the case, I do a.
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Katie Wolk Stanley
Lot of curbside shopping and a tremendous amount of thrifting for things that I want and need. And if it's even slightly something that could have bedbugs, I examine it in the store and then I also leave it on my porch so I can give it a better examination. I've never had get the headline, something that I would call a cautionary tale from that, though.
- [09:48]
Matt
Got it. Okay, well, so we're kind of talking about, I don't know, just buying stuff. New Katie, like, do you have any thoughts on buying things that are more well made, like things that are higher quality, that come with maybe better warranties? Is that important to you, you know, when you're at least occasionally buying something that hasn't previously been used?
- [10:06]
Katie Wolk Stanley
Yes, although mostly I really don't buy that much stuff. And I understand what you're getting at. You buying like a higher quality item from a responsible company that will warranty that will stand behind their product is always like the ideal. My goal is to then just get it used when the person who initially bought it gets bored with it.
- [10:31]
Joel
I like that. Well, and one of the things that you've written about, you've talked about too, is that you prioritize lower tech solutions because those things need to be replaced less frequently. And I think like you've mentioned tea kettles and it's funny because we went to like an electric tea kettle, but we've had like, they didn't last very long. And so I'm like, do I need to go back to just this basic like just kettle on the stove thing? That's, I mean, that's kind of your approach, right?
- [10:56]
Katie Wolk Stanley
Yes, I do have a kettle on the stove and it is such an. Although it's not that old, it's probably, I don't know, 15 years old at this point. It's exactly the one that you can see on the show Mad Men. So it's classic design, the Revere one. But yeah, I don't want things that I'm going to have to replace. I did just buy a new refrigerator this fall, now that I think of it, and I did get one that had like zero bells and whistles. The less that's going on with the stuff that you own, the less that can go wrong with it.
- [11:30]
Joel
Yeah, yeah. You don't want your fridge connected to the Internet with like a tablet on it and all this other kind of stuff. You're right. I mean, I think that that is like there's more stuff to replace and it's the same kind of with modern cars often these days too.
- [11:42]
Katie Wolk Stanley
And if it's simpler, it's something that you could conceivably repair yourself with a good YouTube video.
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Joel
Yeah. Yep. Okay. So I think you're right on that. And I guess like a lot of people opt to replace items that could easily be fixed. But you have described yourself as a serial Repairer. And I remember when we've worked together, Katie, back in the day, and I learned about this thing called Sugru from you, which is like moldable clay and glue, which helps repair all sorts of things. I think you actually sent me some in the mail. And I love that you. Yeah, and I love that you're just kind of all about, like, fixing stuff whenever you can. So, like, do you have any best DIY tips for fixing things that break from time to time in your life?
- [12:28]
Katie Wolk Stanley
I just said it. But YouTube, there is very rarely something that you're trying to figure out how to do that you can't find on YouTube that somebody else has done themselves and put together a video about it. You don't need to invent the wheel. My husband and I, we both just, you know, if something is wrong, we want to know how can we fix this? And in that way we're able to avoid making new purchases. A recent example is I was at my son's rental house and I noticed that they had a busted up dining room chair in the corner of the room. And I asked his roommate, hey, do you want me to fix this? And he was like, what? I'm like, that looks repairable. Would you want me to fix this? And he was like, okay, I guess.
- [13:17]
Matt
All right. Crazy lady.
- [13:18]
Katie Wolk Stanley
This guy doesn't know me. Just, you know, his roommate's mom so brought it home and it just was a matter of gluing and clamping in a couple of different stages. And my son took it back last night. And it is not a beautiful chair to be handed down to your ancestors. But you know what? It's now a functional piece and it literally saves it from the landfill and makes it so that they can have like a, you know, proper number of people at the dining room table, if that ever worked.
- [13:49]
Matt
Which is, honestly, that's. That's the most important thing, right? The ability for folks to gather around that table. I mean, with furniture in particular, when you have older furniture that isn't just particle board, it's made from real wood, you can glue it, right? Like wood glue, like joints or whatever, where you've used glue. I've learned from personal experience, it's. I mean, I think it's stronger than other parts of the chair. Like, it's not going to break there again, if you have a good bond. But how do you know, like, when something is beyond repairing? Because it's difficult to know. Just, like, is this something that I can tackle myself? Or like, how do you know when it truly Is time to just toss it out and replace it completely.
- [14:25]
Katie Wolk Stanley
Well, there isn't necessarily like a single single answer to that. But I'm going to go back to the example of the refrigerator that my husband and I just got from Costco. You'll like that, Joel.
- [14:36]
Joel
Love me some Costco.
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Katie Wolk Stanley
They supply their products, so that was good. And this fridge that we had, that we'd had since 1998. Cause I remember my son was an infant. It was not like a great quality item. And so we've done a lot of little repairs. And my husband, finally, after countless repairs through the years, was like, you know what? I can't figure this out. I think it's the compressor. So we went out, we got a bare bones one, which, by the way, got lightly scratched during the delivery process. And Posco gave us like 150, 200 bucks back.
- [15:15]
Joel
Sweet.
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Katie Wolk Stanley
Yeah. And they offered it a call. I wasn't. You know, I'm a. Karen, talk to your manager lady. They offered it.
- [15:25]
Joel
Oh, nice.
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Matt
Okay.
- [15:26]
Joel
Well, that's the kind of company they are. You know, they do stuff like that, which is great.
- [15:29]
Katie Wolk Stanley
And they treat their employees well and they pay a living wage. So that's who I want to. When I am buying new stuff, I look for companies like that to give my money to.
- [15:38]
Joel
Okay.
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Matt
Who you buy from is really important. But so, I mean, it sounds like for y' all, with the fridge, it kind of came down to the. Maybe the total cost of the. Of the repair perhaps was going to total the item. And so maybe that's a decent rule of thumb for folks to kind of keep in mind if you're going to be sinking more money into this repair and even still have it be subpar. Right. Maybe it's time.
- [15:57]
Joel
It's kind of like if you have a car that's old car that's worth 3500 bucks and you got it, it's like transmission replacement time. You're like, okay, probably doesn't make sense to repair this thing anymore. It's time to. Yeah. Parcel this one out for parts.
- [16:09]
Katie Wolk Stanley
Yeah. We're driving very old car right now. And you know what? We just keep repairing it and.
- [16:14]
Joel
Yeah. And it makes sense. Right. I was. I think we talked about on the show Recently, I spent $288 to replace. I want to say it was a solenoid or something like that. And so I had to get it replaced just to pass the emissions test or they won't let me drive in the state of Georgia.
- [16:29]
Matt
300 bucks.
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Joel
Yeah, totally. I was like, I was, like, really excited to spend the money on that because it prevents me from having a car payment. And. And I think you're right. Like, the. The more what we're using and how much we're consuming on the front end, it kind of helps us to create less waste and to create less consumption and to spend less money. I'm curious, too, because we're getting into spring right now, and a lot of people are probably starting to think about spring cleaning. I know we are at our house, we're starting to think about decluttering a little bit more. And one of the things that you mentioned on your blog was that we can often get a tax break for donating these items to Goodwill. But it's something that most people don't do properly. And the deductions can actually be significant. They can add up over time, depending on what you're giving away. Right. Can you talk about that?
- [17:14]
Katie Wolk Stanley
Yes. When I donate to Goodwill and they give you the little receipt, I actually, in that moment, like, I drive around the corner and park the car. I write two pairs men's pants, you know, one youth winter coat. Because when the time comes to do your taxes, whether you're doing, like, a turbo tax or maybe one of the, like, three versions, which I recommend that you can put all of that in. You can't just say, I donated $35 of stuff. You can get so much more. They'll give you, like, a $10 credit for a single pair of men's pants. That's not a. I don't specifically know right now, but it could be significant. My husband and I do our taxes ourselves, and we do them together. And he always hands the computer over, and he's like, all right, put in the Goodwill stuff, and it'll make difference of, like, hundreds of dollars of how much we're getting back.
- [18:12]
Joel
I will say I'm worried that Dale's gonna wake up tomorrow with no pants. Cause you're gonna go donate them all just for the tax write off, just.
- [18:18]
Matt
To get the money.
- [18:18]
Katie Wolk Stanley
Hey, who told you?
- [18:20]
Joel
Sorry, Dale.
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Matt
So, practically speaking. So do you immediately enter those into whatever software or app you're using, or do you just kind of keep a note on your phone?
- [18:30]
Katie Wolk Stanley
They hand you a paper slip, and then it has lines for what you donated, and I write it on those lines. It's very.
- [18:37]
Matt
And then you just keep. Hang on to the paper until the. Until come. Come tax season. I love it. I think that's really important. Yeah. Because otherwise, if you don't. If you don't do it like right then and there. I think there's a good chance you'll either forget. Yeah. Or you might even just say what? Forget about it. You know, you may not even take the time. Yeah. Yeah. So yeah, getting that tax break, that is certainly one thing you can do with some of the additional items that you have on hand, but you can also take some of those things and sell them. We actually are going to talk a good bit about how you can make some additional income with some of your excess goods. We'll get to plus plenty more right after this. You probably think it's too soon to join aarp, right? Well, let's take a minute to talk about it. Where do you see yourself in 15 years? More specifically your career, your health, your social life? What are you doing now to help you to get there? Well, there are tons of ways for you to start preparing today for your future with aarp.
- [19:37]
Joel
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- [19:58]
Matt
So it's safe to say it's never too soon to join aarp. They're here to help your money, your health and happiness live as long as you do. That's why the younger you are, the more you need AARP. Learn more at aarp.org wisefriend looking for.
- [20:14]
Joel
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- [20:41]
Matt
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- [21:10]
Joel
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- [21:14]
Matt
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- [21:48]
Joel
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- [22:03]
Matt
Nice.
- [22:03]
Joel
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- [22:15]
Matt
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- [22:34]
Joel
All right, we are back from the break. We're still talking about using things up, wearing them out, making it do, doing without, and just kind of like buying less and being smarter with our consumption habits. We're talking with Katie Wolk, Stanley here on the show today. And Katie, you wrote an article about how to practice extreme frugality. So I am curious. Matt and I, we give the distinction between things being frugal and cheap. On the show. We have a recurring segment sometimes where we'll debate the merits of a decision and say, was that frugal or cheap? But you kind of say there's a third way. I don't know. I'm curious to hear your. Yeah. Your belief in how you think about being frugal or being cheap.
- [23:11]
Katie Wolk Stanley
I feel like the cheap versus frugal debate is like a false dichotomy. It's not a either one or the other black or white issue. I feel like. Do you like A good Venn diagram. I do. I feel like you've got cheap one circle, you've got frugal the other, and then they meet in the center and you've got non consumerism there.
- [23:33]
Matt
Okay, so right middle, like that, that's where we like to live. Katie?
- [23:38]
Katie Wolk Stanley
Yeah. I am a how to money listener and I have heard you guys talk about something being cheaper for Google and I want in on the conversation. I'm like, no, there's a third choice. But I feel that like trying to think of what like a good example would be like buying a low quality item versus buying a very expensive but higher quality item. You're like, oh, what do I do? Do I spend 1,000 on this or do I spend 400 on that? And I feel like there's that's third choice, which is buy the expensive, higher quality item but find it used. Or like I. Here in Portland, Oregon, we have like amazing restaurants and a lot of really inexpensive options too. Food carts and such. We have an amazing like Mexican food cart just a couple blocks away from the house. And I'll go there and it is cheap, but what I do is I will choose like the cheap option. But then I end up tipping really well.
- [24:36]
Matt
Okay.
- [24:36]
Katie Wolk Stanley
And like for that same amount of money, I could have gone to like a very dull middle of the road restaurant, but instead I get to go and get something amazing. But I make sure that I'm tipping well. Even though in Oregon nobody is allowed to get less than minimum wage. So even your waiters are getting the minimum wage.
- [24:53]
Joel
Oh, that's cool.
- [24:54]
Matt
They're definitely getting taken care of. I think so much of it does come down to the heart of why you do something. Right. And so if you are, because I think so much of cheap being cheap is it's like an attitude. And I think what one person's cheap can be somebody else's frugal. And it kind of depends on how you approach it. But do you have any other examples of some ways that maybe folks have either made fun of you or that in your own opinion that would be considered?
- [25:21]
Joel
Yeah. What are the worst things people say about you, Katie?
- [25:23]
Katie Wolk Stanley
You know something I don't, but just.
- [25:25]
Matt
Like, I guess more extreme examples of frugality, obviously you're looking at things on the side of the road. I love that. But yeah, I'm curious if you have any other examples here.
- [25:34]
Katie Wolk Stanley
I, I love a good roadside find.
- [25:37]
Joel
We're not talking roadkill for dinner or anything like that, right?
- [25:40]
Katie Wolk Stanley
Probably not.
- [25:41]
Joel
Okay.
- [25:42]
Katie Wolk Stanley
No, I can make that $5 Costco chicken stretch for many meals. I don't need to be going for possum. No. I semi recently found a Filson brand, like knit wool knit cap, like in the street, soggy, embedded with like oil and leaves and stuff. It was not recently dropped, so I brought it home, I washed it, I sweater shaved it, I put it up on ebay and I sold it for 40 bucks.
- [26:09]
Joel
Nice.
- [26:10]
Matt
Very nice.
- [26:10]
Katie Wolk Stanley
So I mean, there's stuff. But back to cheap. I actually want to defend cheap. I know the word cheap and the idea of cheap gets a very bad rap. But what can happen a lot of times is that people do not want to be perceived as cheap with family, with friends. And what they'll do is they will spend beyond their means in order to not be viewed as being cheap. And in that way, I think demonizing the word can do disservice to people.
- [26:43]
Joel
I think that's a good point. I think people feel uncomfortable. They don't want to be classified in that way. And so you're right. They probably end up spending in ways that get them in trouble when they should probably be just a little more comfortable wearing that moniker and not feeling as self conscious about it.
- [26:57]
Katie Wolk Stanley
Admitting you're on a limited budget, finding ways to do what you want and do so enjoyably on like no money or next to no money is a creative challenge and I find that enjoyable. And I try and help other people find that enjoyable and there is no shame in that. And people, you know, embarrassed by the car they drive, even if they have a perfectly functional car.
- [27:23]
Joel
Yep.
- [27:24]
Katie Wolk Stanley
And getting something they can't afford because they don't want to look cheap.
- [27:27]
Joel
Yep. I know you're spot on. And I think we should be less. I don't know, it just makes me think about. I've driven kind of quote unquote beaters for kind of my. My most of my whole life, even into adulthood. Our only Car is a 2006 Honda Odyssey and it's powder blue. It's not terribly attractive. And I know, you know, some people might look and they might judge or something, but I guess part of it is just kind of a comfort level in your own skin and with the choices that you're making and saying like, that's just not something we prioritize, even though a lot of other people do. But I think for some people, you're right. It's not that they prioritize it, but it's just that they feel compelled to follow the crowd and to do kind of what other people are doing, even if it puts them in like a precarious financial position.
- [28:07]
Matt
Yeah. Yeah. Katie. So Joel said, being comfortable in your own skin. So essentially it kind of comes down, I think, to the individual. Like, do you have any advice or any tips to help people to be comfortable with the decisions that they're making, sometimes out of necessity, or sometimes they're making these decisions out of just a desire to be frugal, a desire to save for other financial goals that they might have. But I don't know. Have you ever talked with folks who find themselves in a situation where they really feel uncomfortable being in that position? Do you have any advice for them?
- [28:38]
Katie Wolk Stanley
That's a hard one because it is so individual. I mean, it kind of boils down to contemptedness. Like, can you be, you know, if you are a content person with who you are and the belongings that you have and the person, your sense of self that you present out into the world, Madison Avenue can't touch you.
- [28:58]
Matt
Yeah.
- [28:59]
Katie Wolk Stanley
You being solid with yourself means that you are not as like open to thinking that this purchase is going to make your life better. And granted, there are purchases that can make your life better, but it shouldn't be motivated by feeling bad about yourself.
- [29:20]
Joel
Yeah.
- [29:21]
Katie Wolk Stanley
And that's a hard one. And I don't know if that really does answer your question. I used to work until a few years ago as a labor and delivery nurse. I worked for 24 years at a high risk unit. And so I had many, many, many co workers, all of them women. All the nurses were women there. And we had countless in depth conversations. You really get to know one another. And so many women that I worked with, they were working full time, they had little kids, they were often or usually married to someone who had a good income and they're still living paycheck to paycheck. And it was Disneyland every year. It was new cars, it was keeping up with the Joneses. And I wasn't there to judge and I wasn't there telling people what they're doing wrong. Nobody likes that person. Nobody wants unsolicited advice in this world. But I certainly saw that. I saw people comforting their unhappiness or their stress with purchases. And it's hard to see. And it doesn't mean you're like a bad person if you do that by any means. We've all been there where you need to cheer yourself up.
- [30:40]
Joel
Yeah, but there's room for evolution.
- [30:42]
Katie Wolk Stanley
Sometimes it can have really big picture consequences that you're not like, figuring out what your big picture goals are.
- [30:49]
Joel
Yeah, for sure. All right, I want to talk about selling things because we talked about donating things just before the break. But you say that a lot of folks who, like, they throw things out that they could turn into cash. And so, like, I don't know. And it feels like you're hunting for used things all the time at the thrift store on the side of the road, and then you're turning around and you're selling those items, that one man's trash is another man's treasure. That saying, I feel like you kind of personify that. So talk to me about how you're finding stuff, how you're thinking about kind of resale when it comes to things that you're getting rid of or things that you're finding to just turn a profit on.
- [31:23]
Katie Wolk Stanley
Yes, I do thrifting. I'm not doing it all the time.
- [31:27]
Joel
Just four days a week. That's all. I swear. I follow you on Instagram. I see you at your Goodwill all the time, and then you're buying stuff, and you're selling it on ebay, and you're making a lot of money.
- [31:35]
Katie Wolk Stanley
True. I am doing that. Just last week, I got a couple of bar stools, and they just kind of stood out as quality items when I saw them. And I gave them, you know, a little shake test to make sure they're sturdy. I bought them for 9.99 each, and I sold the pair for 175. And I did that on Facebook Marketplace. There's not a single answer to that. I. One thing that I've enjoyed doing is there are a couple of, like, wealthy neighborhoods here in Portland, and they have, like, a garage sale day. And what I'll do is I' drive my 2005 Honda minivan.
- [32:11]
Joel
Making me feel bad here.
- [32:12]
Katie Wolk Stanley
Competitive? No. At the end of the day, where everybody just, like, puts their stuff, like, at the curb with, like, a free sign. And I have found boxes of books that I can take to Powell's, which is a bookstore here in Portland, and they'll give you money for them. I've found, like, Yakima Rack Systems that I'll take to a. A store in town that buys used bike racks. I mean, there's just many ways to do that. It's interesting, though, because you don't want to be a hoarder, and I'm certainly not. I don't know if you can hear the echo in this room. I'm not that by any means, but I am very deliberate with the things that I do bring home. I'll check the eBay app to see completed listings to see if something is selling well. Ideally, if I am selling stuff, I want to make at least 30, usually 50 bucks on it. I'm not trying to make $10 here and there. That's just kind of like finicky work. Although I love $10, I've never turned that down. But for my efforts and for the stuff that I am bringing into my home, I try to do that.
- [33:25]
Joel
So it sounds like what you're saying is you value your time and at some point you're not going to go through. So how do you think about that too, when it comes to your hourly rate or how you think about how much time and effort you put into flipping something in order to turn a profit?
- [33:39]
Katie Wolk Stanley
I will clean something up, but I don't want to be repairing the stuff that I am selling.
- [33:46]
Joel
Gotcha.
- [33:46]
Katie Wolk Stanley
That's a slippery slope to like setting it aside and then you just kind of never do it. I try to make 50 bucks if I'm selling something and then that way it's just kind of worth my time, even though I am retired.
- [33:58]
Matt
I guess regardless if you're retired or not, for you, you've got a standard, you've got a bar that you're not, you know, willing to go below. But I think that's the biggest problem is that folks are saying that they don't have the time. I think there's a lot of folks who might be hearing you talk and they're saying this is, I can totally get behind this. I don't have the time to do all of this. What advice do you have for those folks who like the mission? They like the idea of reusing things, but they're saying they don't have the time. What are your thoughts there?
- [34:28]
Katie Wolk Stanley
Oh, I feel for those people because I have been there as, you know, mom of little kids working full time nights as a nurse. You know, time was not something that I enjoyed a plethora of. I guess it's about being strategic with what is important. Buying less stuff is a way that you can save money. It's very easy when you have kids. You just love them to pieces and you want to get them absolutely everything. But, I mean, studies have shown that having less stuff actually helps your kids focus more, helps them kind of appreciate the things that they do have. And to do more kind of focused play than a room that is like filled with like everything that Toys R Us threw up or whoever or Amazon, I guess at this point.
- [35:21]
Joel
Well, we all have seen our kids end up playing with the boxes or the pots and pans or stuff like that too. That happens. And you're just like, what happened to the hundred dollar Barbie Dream House that we got you? Why aren't you playing with that? Like that's kind of a common refrain you hear from parents.
- [35:34]
Katie Wolk Stanley
Yeah, I mean it's. Being a parent is just the hardest thing. Especially now in the digital age where, you know, that Barbie Dream House is competing with a screen. You know, I was luckier that my kids are older. I didn't really have that issue. But I mean, when you don't have the time, you just choose what is important to you. And if that is saving money or if that is just having like a simpler life or having like less clutter in your home, just, you know, maybe find like minded people. My Facebook group for the non consumer advocate has more than 80,000 people in it. And if you need inspiration or if you need a question answered, it is a really good place to come.
- [36:23]
Joel
Yeah. Do you feel like there's overlap between the minimalism movements and the non consumer movement? Are those similar or are those like. Yeah, just I guess I'm curious how much, like if we're talking Venn diagrams, like we were discussing earlier, how much, how much overlap is there between those two?
- [36:40]
Katie Wolk Stanley
There is absolutely overlap. Having too much stuff, I mean, everything you have in your home, unless you know you're garbage picking, is stuff that you paid for. It is money that you spent. And a lot of times people hold onto that stuff because there's that sunk cost where they're like, well, I paid good money for that. Y. I don't like it, but you know, I'm going to hold on to it because you don't want to admit that, you know, the mistake that you made. But having less stuff, having a less cluttered home, is something that a lot of people want. It's easier to have friends over, to have house guests. Having a cluttered home or feeling like you do not have like a home that you could welcome people into is a very isolating thing for a lot of people. With the Internet and social media, we see a curated vision of how other people are living and it makes people feel like bad about their own messy lives.
- [37:36]
Matt
Yeah. And essentially what you're getting at is like the sunk cost fallacy, like the desire for folks to not want to admit that they're wrong, essentially. And when presented with new data, with new facts, sometimes we have to be like, oh, I'm going to change my mind. Oh, I don't actually need this thing in my life. And if that means I have to take a loss in order to get rid of it, Sometimes we have to let go of our egos, which is. Which I think that might be what you're speaking to a little bit here.
- [37:59]
Katie Wolk Stanley
It is emotionally painful to let go of things.
- [38:03]
Matt
It is.
- [38:04]
Katie Wolk Stanley
But the more you do it, the more you acclimate yourself to like. Yeah, I felt bad about getting rid of those boots that, you know, were always so uncomfortable. You can get rid of them and you do survive that process.
- [38:18]
Joel
Yeah, that's true. All right, so I want to ask you too, something super practical. Matt and I, we just did a. A whole episode about butchering your grocery bill. And you. I've like, followed your grocery buying routine. You call it disjointed, but because you drive to a bunch of different places to get the best price on each item. So I am curious to know. I'm sure it's a little different than what my grocery routine looks like, but what's the Katie Wilk Stanley approach to buying food without spending too much money?
- [38:47]
Katie Wolk Stanley
I do buy different grocery items from different places. And that sounds like just if you just look at that for face value, that it would be a lot of time and a pain in the tukus. But in fact, it really isn't because I work it into, like, the routine of like, what is already happening. I'm not spending like 12 hours a day going to different grocery stores, but, like, we go through a lot of bananas here and Trader Joe's, it must be a loss leader. They sell them for 19 cents a piece, which means you can choose the big ones. I'll do that on my way to the store that's a grocery liquidator here in Portland, Oregon, and I call it the dented vegetable store. But they always have like, those great big packs of organic mixed greens that are like six, seven dollars at least in the store. They have them for two bucks.
- [39:41]
Joel
Nice.
- [39:41]
Katie Wolk Stanley
Sometimes one dollar bill hat. So I'll go there. I can't get all of my stuff there, but I have walked in and. And ended up walking out with like a flat of strawberries for $2. But it's one of those things like, you better be ready to make jam that day.
- [39:56]
Joel
Yeah, they're going bad quick.
- [39:58]
Katie Wolk Stanley
Two days out of these without, you.
- [40:00]
Joel
Know, which just means you have to be ready to be resourceful with the things that you're buying. And I think that's great. And I think that is because of our on demand society constantly connected to technology. It's harder to be a resourceful person, we have to kind of build that up in ourselves because it just doesn't come naturally. So I love kind of you're pushing us into that realm. But we've got a couple more questions we want to get to with you, Katie. I specifically want to talk about the do without part of the your moniker and like how you know when you should just do without because that is something that we're not great at in our society. So we'll get some questions on that and more right after this.
- [40:46]
Matt
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- [41:04]
Joel
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Matt
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- [42:37]
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- [42:44]
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- [44:13]
Joel
All remove from our lives.
- [44:16]
Katie Wolk Stanley
You don't have to make as much money.
- [44:18]
Joel
Yeah.
- [44:18]
Matt
And nor does it take any time to not buy something, flip something on ebay or like all that takes some time. It takes being resourceful, but actually not buying something. It's the absence. It's the absence of time.
- [44:33]
Katie Wolk Stanley
I think a good example for that is, I don't know if you know who Amy Decision is. She wrote the Tight Wad Gazette.
- [44:41]
Joel
That's like an old school thing like.
- [44:44]
Katie Wolk Stanley
30 years ago back in the archives here.
- [44:46]
Joel
Yeah.
- [44:47]
Katie Wolk Stanley
And she wrote in one of her books that she did a lot of interviews and a lot of. She was filmed for a lot of TV segments and they always wanted to see her actively doing something that would save her money. And she said the thing that she wanted to do was to load the kids up in the car and drive past, like, McDonald's and just show that she wasn't going there. But that doesn't make, like, a gripping visual image. Not doing, like, here I am.
- [45:18]
Matt
That's so true, though. Yeah. I mean that, like, that's what you're talking about. That, like, essentially that's the do without part of your motto. And I mean, just generally speaking, as a society, like, self. Self deprivation is not something that we're. That we're great at, but it is.
- [45:33]
Katie Wolk Stanley
You know, that's not an easy message to sell.
- [45:35]
Matt
No.
- [45:36]
Joel
Right.
- [45:36]
Matt
It's not sexy. You can't market it. Like, what advertiser is going to get behind you if you're going to say to. What you should really be doing is just, generally speaking, buy less stuff. But what I would love to hear from you, though, what are some purchases that folks maybe make occasionally or routinely, either way, but that they're making that you think folks maybe should consider foregoing altogether?
- [45:58]
Katie Wolk Stanley
That's not an easy answer. That's a hard one. Because it's so individualized. Like, for you two, spending money on craft beer is absolutely worth it to you. That brings you pleasure. There's satisfaction in that. To me, I don't really like to drink. And so to me, that would be an absolute waste of money. I'd sooner throw it down the sink as I would to drink it. I know. Blasphemy here.
- [46:25]
Joel
Yes. Yes, it is.
- [46:26]
Matt
You would donate it.
- [46:27]
Joel
This is the last time you'll be on the show, by the way, Katie.
- [46:29]
Katie Wolk Stanley
Just letting you know that I better make this work. No, that's a hard one. For some family, like, doing international travel is a priority for them to expose themselves and their children to different cultures in the world. World. And for them, they're going to make sacrifices in their everyday life that make that possible. And for somebody else, perhaps, who's more of a homebody, like, doing the things that give them comfort in the home means they do not have that money to internationally travel. But that's not what they want anyway. I really think that people think that living below your means equates to deprivation, and that's absolutely not true. I mean, it's hard to, you know, look at the numbers. It's an unpain. It's like a painful thing to do. All right, this is the money we have coming in. This is the money that we have going out. What is, you know, how much do we have? It's Looking at that. Looking at the hard numbers and that look in the mirror to see, like, what. What money do you have and what is it that you value? Is it savings? Is it college funds for your kids? Is it travel? Is it helping family members who maybe need that help? You know, they're at a stage of life?
- [47:45]
Matt
Yeah, well, no, I think that's. That's so true. And I appreciate that, that approach. I mean, what I'm hearing is that you're not a hater. No, not at all. Not at all. Which, I mean, that's. That's where we tend to fall. Because if it's something that's important to you, I think you can almost justify any expense out there if your heart is in the right place and if it's something that you value and if you. And if you. Yeah, exactly. If you plan for it and you're putting it on credit.
- [48:08]
Joel
Haven't planned for it. And so we're just spending like everyone else around us, and we haven't done the deep work to really think about what does move the needle in our lives so that we can really spend intentionally there and then start to curb spending in other areas that maybe just weren't providing much bang for the buck, like even something as simple as going to get a haircut, like, every six or eight weeks or something like that. Think about how that kind of money adds up. I'm guessing, Katie, you don't pay someone else to cut your hair, right?
- [48:38]
Katie Wolk Stanley
Well, I used to. And I think I've heard that you do this also, Joel, the Supercuts training center. Yes, I used. That's how I would get my hair cut. And I would, like, badger the kids to get their haircut that way as well.
- [48:52]
Joel
Free haircuts for trainees. It's beautiful.
- [48:55]
Katie Wolk Stanley
And again, you get the free haircut and then you tip.
- [48:58]
Joel
Yep.
- [48:59]
Katie Wolk Stanley
And so, yes, you're spending $5, but they're not used to getting a tip at all. And so they're always really happy to get that.
- [49:06]
Matt
Do you tip them before they start cutting your hair? That way they try a little extra bad.
- [49:10]
Katie Wolk Stanley
Is it a tip? But no, but the thing is that my one, it seems to have gone dormant. I can't figure it out. But I did get a coupon for, like, great clips for 10.99. So I went in and I did that. And again, I, you know, I tipped well. I tipped not based on a 1099 haircut.
- [49:27]
Joel
Yeah.
- [49:28]
Katie Wolk Stanley
And I also very infrequently get my haircut. I let it get long and straggly, and I chop it off again.
- [49:34]
Matt
That's my current approach. So I've cut my own hair since I was in middle school, Katie. And since the pandemic started, I was one of those that was like, all right, I'm gonna do the long hair thing and we'll see how much longer it lasts. It's getting a little unruly.
- [49:47]
Joel
Getting close to his tush.
- [49:49]
Matt
That's true.
- [49:51]
Katie Wolk Stanley
Sit on it.
- [49:52]
Matt
I almost can. That's getting problematic. Katie, you mentioned your kids, right? Like, you were trying to get them to also attend the great clips, But I know that you're essentially. You're an empty nester now.
- [50:03]
Katie Wolk Stanley
Essentially, yes. They stop by to look in the fridge very frequently.
- [50:06]
Matt
They hang out. But I mean, you know, and you've got your husband. When y' all, like, did it ever cause problems, I guess, like your. Your frugal tendencies? Did it ever cause any family strife as you're trying to take the thermostat down, make it a little bit colder? Or if you are just all the different ways that you're trying to save money? I'm curious.
- [50:26]
Joel
Or when you sell everyone's pants, like, is that. Is that ruining family relationships or anything?
- [50:31]
Matt
Yeah. How did you avoid that conflict?
- [50:33]
Katie Wolk Stanley
I wouldn't say that it has ever caused strife, as that is, you know, a strong word to use. I would say more that, you know, no teenager ever wants to be told no. And so whether or not you are somebody who does traditional shopping where you're gonna take the kids to the mall, you're gonna go to Target, whatever, I mean, all kids here know. And my kids were used to me. They know me. And I was always saying, like, you know, hey, we can go to Goodwill first and see if they have what you want. And, you know, maybe they were grumpy times, but. But they knew that they would get a yes at Goodwill. And it doesn't take too many times of thinking like, oh, I'm not getting what I want, and then you end up finding something that's so expensive, if you had bought it new, and yet somehow you got it for $5 that, you know, it turns things around.
- [51:29]
Joel
So do you feel like your kids have kind of followed suit? Do they live a similar lifestyle to the way you kind of raise them?
- [51:34]
Matt
Have they come around?
- [51:36]
Katie Wolk Stanley
Yes. No. I am not here to force my ways on other people, even my own children. And I don't believe anything good comes from forcing your point of view on other people. They both will go to Goodwill for stuff, or, you know, they'll ask me if I can check on the buy nothing group to see if somebody has a such and such. But they mostly just kind of don't buy a lot of of stuff.
- [52:02]
Matt
Okay.
- [52:03]
Katie Wolk Stanley
One does have a credit card in order to, you know, build her credit rating, but neither of them have any credit debt. We were able to pay for them to go to college just out of pocket through our extreme frugality. So we've set them up for a really good adult life. They're not starting with $100,000 of debt, which I just feel so bad for people who do not have a choice about that. And they know that they're lucky because their friends are not in that same situation. They're able to take jobs that maybe can build to like better jobs and in terms of career wise because they can live on $17 an hour.
- [52:46]
Joel
Well, I love it. I mean, I love your mission, Katie. I love you've been at it a long time now through the Facebook group, your Instagram, through your blog. Just really teaching people about how to just think about purchases and really life differently than kind of our modern conception of it, which I really appreciate. And it really fits with the vibe of what Matt and I are trying to do over here at how to Money. So how can our listeners find out more about you and what you're up to?
- [53:11]
Katie Wolk Stanley
Well, I blog@thenonconsumeradvocate.com for years. I blog seven days a week. I have dialed that back a bit and I put up a fresh blog post every Monday and then sometimes the second one during the week. I am on Instagram as the non consumer advocate or maybe non consumer. You'd think I'd know.
- [53:35]
Joel
We'll link to them in the show notes so everybody can find them quick.
- [53:38]
Katie Wolk Stanley
I have a Facebook group and that is the non consumer advocate. Thank you so much for having me on. And I hopefully was able to get the message across that non consumerism isn't about being deprived, it's about saving money. It's about doing that in a way that looks at like the environmental impact of our purchases and hopefully people will respond to that. And I appreciate you having me on, Katie.
- [54:06]
Joel
Always glad to have you. Great to chat. Thanks so much for coming on. We'll talk to you soon.
- [54:09]
Katie Wolk Stanley
All right, thank you.
- [54:10]
Matt
Joel. Man, what a great conversation we had with essentially about. Okay, so first, this isn't my big takeaway, but I love that Katie wanted to provide her $0.02 on the third option. Right. It's not just being frugal or being cheap. There's a way that you can be cheap in most people's books. Right. Like, according to most people, they're gonna say that, man, you're taking, you're taking the cheap option here, but to you, you're being frugal.
- [54:34]
Joel
To you, you're being the non consumer, then really? Yeah, you're just opting out of the game that everyone else is playing. Which I think is kind of Katie's main message to say, like, it's not just frugal or cheap. It's like you can just check out of kind of the normal path that most people take through society, which is just to consume a lot more than they need to. And she talked about that at the very end, how that can be for environmental reasons, but it can be for money saving reasons. And it can. She's, you know, she even talked about how she was able to basically set her kids up for a much better future because she took a different path too.
- [55:03]
Matt
Exactly. And I think what she said is also true that it oftentimes can be because of the pressures of other people, like you don't want to be perceived as being cheap. And because of that, it's. There's just a lot more consumption that's taking place. But what was your, your big takeaway aside from, aside from the frugal versus cheap conversation, what was your big takeaway from our conversation today with Katie?
- [55:23]
Joel
You know, so tough to pick one thing, but when she said that it all boils down to contentedness and that if you are content with what you have and with who you are, Madison Avenue can't touch you. And I think oftentimes we are trying to fill a void with kind of through consumerism. And we realize, or typically we actually don't realize that we're not, not making much of a dent, you know, in that void by buying things. And so we kind of continue to try and it just never works. Right. And so I think that's a big part of kind of what's going on is, is that contentedness isn't terribly easy to come by. And a lot of people are looking to purchases to buy their happiness, and it just, it doesn't work. And so I think, you know, we could talk about all the strategies until we're blue in the face. But if you can't find ways to be happy with what you have and be happy with less, it's. It's going to be really hard, I think, for Katie's message to, to be applicable to you.
- [56:22]
Matt
Very true. Yeah. All right, so since you went with like a 20,000 foot level takeaway, I'll, I'll dive into the granular, I'll maybe some more of the nuts and bolts. And specifically when she was talking about what she is willing to essentially flip and sell on ebay or Facebook marketplace, that first of all she's looking to make at least, least 50 bucks. Essentially, like she's not going to do something for just $10 for her that's not worth her time. But one of the other things she pointed out is that she is not going to take something on that she has to fix. I like that because I think that can also be a good rule of thumb for folks who are out there and they're thinking, oh, like I'm pretty good at thrifting, like I can spot a good deal or, or maybe, hey, I'm pretty good with a bar keeper's friend and I know how to shine this thing up. And so I think if this is maybe a tactic and approach that you're thinking about doing, making some additional money by selling things on ebay or Facebook, don't look at the different things that need fixing because I think that's when you might end up being and turning into a hoarder.
- [57:20]
Joel
Right?
- [57:20]
Matt
Cause Katie's just like, I'm not a hoarder. She moves things pretty quickly.
- [57:23]
Joel
So like 26 projects in your garage that need to be worked out, that's.
- [57:26]
Matt
What you, that's probably what you don't want to turn into. And so I thought that was a good little nugget that she's not looking necessarily to fix things, but she will bring them in, wash them, get them, get them cleaned up, and then quickly turn them around for a profit. But keep that in mind if you're also looking to make some extra change on the side.
- [57:41]
Joel
I think it was last year that we did the sell your stuff challenge and a lot of listeners decided they were going to try to sell 52 things, one thing a week and see how much money that could make them. And so it is one of those things where you could even look to pick up free things or buy additional things that you know you can turn for a profit and add those and try to sell 52 things this year in addition to just kind of the things that you want to declutter or get rid of from your own home. But and then just that last thing, keeping those tax receipts, who knows how much that's going to save you on taxes when it comes comes tax time from the stuff you're donating when you take it to Goodwill. But Matt, let's get back to the beer that we had on this episode. This was Cloudscape IPA by New Park Brewing. What were your thoughts on this one?
- [58:23]
Matt
Yeah, first, a big thank you to Matthew. Thank you for donating this one as well as the other New park brews that we've had here on the show. I assume this is, this is the single IPA version of. We had a double. It was it last week or a couple weeks ago, but was it double cloud or something?
- [58:36]
Joel
So, yeah. So very similar vibes.
- [58:38]
Matt
Very similar. Fantastic. Certainly drink more like a, a single, I guess not a double, but a single ipa, but which just means like.
- [58:46]
Joel
Less robust, less intense, but still a.
- [58:49]
Matt
Little easier to drink.
- [58:49]
Joel
Packing a lot of flavor.
- [58:50]
Matt
Drinks more like a hoppy pale ale, but fantastic. It, I mean, it had all of the qualities that you're looking for to New England and hazy IPA juicy. So it had a fair amount of sugars going on, but not too sweet where it felt like it was just getting weighed down. And it had that nice kind of fresh crispness that you get from those hops.
- [59:08]
Joel
Yeah.
- [59:09]
Matt
Really enjoyed it. Yeah. Did you like it?
- [59:10]
Joel
Yeah, yeah, I like. You said crisp. It had like a crispiness to it, which usually is a word or a description reserved for like pilsners and lagers and stuff like that.
- [59:19]
Matt
But this was like kind of like.
- [59:21]
Joel
A crisp ipa, which I thought was a nice little combo. It was definitely hoppy, definitely juicy, but had that crispiness to it at the end, which I thought kind of nice finish on this beer for sure.
- [59:31]
Matt
It was fantastic.
- [59:32]
Joel
Yeah. Thanks, Matthew. Appreciate it, man. And Matt, that's going to do it for this episode. We'll have links up to all of Katie's resources up in the show. Notes up on our website@howtomoney.com all right, buddy.
- [59:43]
Matt
So until next time, best friends out. Best friends.
- [60:01]
Joel
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- [60:18]
Matt
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- [60:30]
Narrator
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- [61:31]
Matt
He charmed you in any way?
- [61:33]
Narrator
Yes, it did. But he was a charming man.
- [61:38]
Matt
It looks like the ingredients of a really grand spy story. Because this ties together the Cold War with the new one. I often ask myself now, did I know the true Jan at all? Listen to Hot Agent of chaos on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.
- [61:59]
Katie Wolk Stanley
This is an iHeart podcast.