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- [00:00]
Joel
This is an iHeart podcast.
- [00:04]
Matt
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- [00:24]
Jillian
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- [00:33]
Matt
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- [00:48]
Jillian
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- [01:05]
Unknown
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- [02:13]
Matt
Just to fit in with the cool kids.
- [02:15]
Jillian
She's like I'm going to slurp all I want. Dude, you don't tell me what to do with my teeth.
- [02:18]
Matt
Slurp. I don't care about that. Just want you to be drinking a more enticing beverage. Do you drink beer?
- [02:24]
Joel
No.
- [02:25]
Matt
No.
- [02:25]
Joel
Not at all.
- [02:27]
Jillian
Is this something that you intentionally removed from your life? Alcohol generally speaking? Or is it just Something that you don't find.
- [02:33]
Joel
No, I just, I never. I never acquired a taste for beer. Yeah. Which is kind of a bummer because in Montana there's a lot of breweries.
- [02:42]
Matt
Yeah, there are.
- [02:43]
Joel
And like, we have a special brewery license where they can't serve any other alcohol. No wine, no mixed drinks, nothing out of can. Like, nothing. All they can serve beer, they brew on site. And the brewers are awesome. Like, they have live music. They close at 8:30. Like, it's perfect. But it's just me drinking like Lacroix, which is kind of a bummer.
- [03:05]
Jillian
Are the breweries up there? Do they kind of have like a family friendly vibe?
- [03:09]
Joel
Because that's something that no one's like, being obnoxious. Like, it makes it really family friendly because.
- [03:14]
Jillian
Exactly, exactly.
- [03:15]
Joel
You're going to show up at 6, have one beer and then like go home and have dinner.
- [03:18]
Jillian
That's. I'm all about that. Wholesome craft beer enjoyment. That's like, that's what we're all about. What's funny is, Jillian, we're actually gonna do. This is gonna be a very different interview episode. We're all about experimenting when it comes to anytime. We have Jillian, none. Something about you gives us. We feel like we have the freedom to be ourselves. So I don't know, hopefully you take that as a compliment. We are already recording, actually. And so I guess maybe we should still do some sort of light introduction. The fact that we're talking with Jillian. John's rude. You are a friend of ours. We've spoken with you multiple times. You've got a new book coming out. Retire often. It's going to be out in a few months. I will say this specifically. September 9th, is that still the published date?
- [04:01]
Joel
Yes, that's it.
- [04:02]
Jillian
Awesome. But selfishly, we wanted to have you on because we're going to take a break over the summer. We want to make sure we're doing it right ourselves. And so this is just kind of an excuse to talk with you and to make sure we're doing it right.
- [04:13]
Matt
We haven't really told our audience yet, so. And this is.
- [04:16]
Joel
This is the big announcement.
- [04:18]
Matt
This is the big announcement.
- [04:19]
Jillian
They've noticed because we're planning on some of the couple Friday flights before this are going to be a little different as well. That's true. So folks are going to be like, what's going on? Something is afoot.
- [04:29]
Matt
But did Matt finally get up and walk out on Joel? Is that what happened?
- [04:33]
Jillian
I'm still here, guys. I'm still here. We're Just we're trying some different stuff.
- [04:36]
Matt
It comes at a perfect time, Jillian, because this is episode 999. We're going to record episode 1000. Matt and I, we've been doing the podcast for over seven years now.
- [04:47]
Jillian
This is our eighth year. Isn't that crazy?
- [04:49]
Matt
And so there's like a little bit of like, Old Testament year of jubilee action here. Hey, let's take a break. Plus your influence, talking to you about this over the years, reading your book, and just your take on sabbaticals, many retirements, and just taking more time off has kind of gotten through our thick skulls.
- [05:07]
Joel
I am so excited, but I do not want to be gypped out of my. Would you enjoy spending money on? Um, I.
- [05:18]
Jillian
Well, have you updated it?
- [05:20]
Joel
Yes.
- [05:20]
Jillian
Have you updated it? Because I remember last time you talked about I. What's so funny is I specifically remember you saying this, how you talked about the money that you spend at Home Depot or Lowe's.
- [05:29]
Joel
Oh, my gosh.
- [05:29]
Jillian
You basically called it monopoly money because you're like, it doesn't matter.
- [05:32]
Joel
It's not even real.
- [05:33]
Jillian
I don't track it. I'm just gonna spend it no matter what. I care about my garden. So have you updated it since then, or are you kind of doubling down?
- [05:41]
Joel
Well, no. So I have a new one. So I still spend obscene, ridiculous amounts of money gardening. That has not change. But I have added. So eight months ago, I started learning tango because I am so obsessed. I am all in on it. Like, take all of my money. I want the lessons, I want the practica, I want the malangas. I go to festivals. When I travel, I do tango. I've been buying tango clothes, which, like you said, malangas.
- [06:10]
Matt
I assumed that was an item of clothing. It's not.
- [06:13]
Unknown
No.
- [06:13]
Joel
So the malangas is a social dance, like, where you go for. To dance tango.
- [06:17]
Matt
Okay, okay.
- [06:18]
Joel
Like, so I'm in my 40s, but, like, I. For the first time in my life, I am wearing crop tops. Like, oh, do I have stretch marks?
- [06:26]
Jillian
Watch out.
- [06:27]
Joel
Do I not have a six pack? Absolutely not. How many cares do I have? Definitely zero. It's so much fun. So I'm in it to win it. I love it. So, yeah. But tango dancers, there's not many of us.
- [06:43]
Jillian
I gotta guess there's fewer of them up in Montana as well. Like, I don't know, Miami. I'm guessing there's a lot of tango going on, but Montana, Argentina, yeah. Feels a little bit different. You gotta find the right part of the country.
- [06:54]
Matt
Always fun to find a new hobby and then go hook, line and sinker all in on it.
- [06:59]
Joel
Oh, and it takes forever to learn tango. It's like such a long process. But if anyone dances tango and you're coming to Montana, hit me up. Or if I'm going to be like speaking in your city, like, slide yourself directly into my DMs and let's go dance tango. Because like, and I'm learning to lead as well so I can dance with men and women and everyone, like the whole thing. I, yeah, just take all of my money to learn tango.
- [07:24]
Matt
I'm more of a chicken dance guy, but tango sounds.
- [07:27]
Jillian
I'm the chicken dance. Joel loves the cotton eye Joe.
- [07:30]
Matt
Who doesn't?
- [07:32]
Joel
Classic.
- [07:33]
Matt
Especially as a guy from the South.
- [07:34]
Joel
Okay, we can talk about mini determinants, but I, I had to like, I had to pitch tango to anyone who's on the fence.
- [07:41]
Matt
Okay. So, yeah, let's talk mini retirements. You've written, you've written the book on it. We talked about this with you some last year. You were kind of still, you were in the writing phase of this book. And, and we really do want to get, get personal with this. So you, you also coach people, right, when it comes to how to take a mini retirement. If you're coaching me and Matt here as we are getting ready to embark on our first mini retirement. Matt, you've never taken one before, have you?
- [08:09]
Jillian
No.
- [08:10]
Matt
Okay, me neither. Yeah, so I'm like setting sail, you know, slapping the champagne bottle against the side of the ship and pulling up the anchor. I don't know. You want to, you want to help us, help us navigate this?
- [08:22]
Joel
Absolutely. Okay, so first question would be, how long are you taking?
- [08:27]
Jillian
Well, it varies because we're still going to be doing a little bit of work, but let's just say 6, 7ish weeks.
- [08:35]
Joel
Okay.
- [08:37]
Matt
I feel like you're disappointed. Is that not long enough?
- [08:39]
Joel
No, no, that's awesome. Like, honestly, I think four weeks is a great amount of time for the first mini retirement because it's a little bit of a learning curve. And especially when you're self employed, it takes so much effort to be able to step away from work. It takes so much preparation. And so the shorter time period, like the less risk you have, the less risk of things burning to the ground while you're gone. But you, you can kind of spread out that work. So the first one you can do a month or two, you kind of get your bearings and you have some stuff in place and you can build on that. And maybe next. Next year, you take three months. Like, the whole summer, you just go crazy. But it'll be that three months will be so much better because you did the first one. Okay, not disappointed.
- [09:26]
Jillian
The learning curve, like, what is it specifically that folks have to learn? Is it just learning to let go and to, like, disassociate from work? To, like, learn? Oh, in fact, I like to tango dance now. Like, is it giving yourself the time or the structure or setting boundaries or fences around your to discover new hobbies? What is involved with this learning curve?
- [09:48]
Joel
So there's like a dozen ways a mini retirement can go off the rails, and it's a little different for everyone. But I would say one of the first things I have people do is to really set the intention for the time off. And if you want to pick two or three intentions, that's okay. But think about your mini retirement as, like, phases. Don't, like, each of these intentions is kind of like an ingredient. Don't mix them all together because sometimes they don't play nicely with each other. And that can be. One way that a mini retirement can be a little disappointing is you're like, I'm going to recover from burnout and travel to, like, 17 countries and write a book. Like, those three things do not coexist. Actually. Like, you're not going to do any of those. Well, so being really clear on, if I only accomplished one thing, if I only accomplished one thing, what would that thing be? Because it can be really tempting to be like, I'm going to do 27 different things and feel a little lackluster because you didn't actually make much progress on any of them.
- [10:54]
Matt
What sort of intentions do people typically set out with going into a mini retirement? And are they usually more vague in general or are they highly specific? Like, writing a book is a highly specific thing. Hey, in these eight weeks or whatever, I want to come back with, like, a manuscript. But for some people, it might just be a little more, like, I want to dive more into the spiritual realm of my life or something like that. So, yeah, how do people think through those?
- [11:23]
Joel
I would say a vague goal is okay, and it also has to be specific. So really popular ones right now are burnout. Like, one of the last studies I read, it's like, 89% of Americans have experienced burnout in the last year. It's just so prevalent that that's a pretty big intention, that people have a pretty big goal. Extended travel, you know, stuff that you can't fit into your nights and weekends. Like, you just need more time to accomplish it. Some people want to knock through kind of their to do list. They want to get their head above water. And whether that means like, finishing up house renovation projects or decluttering or just working through a to do list, you know, big physical adventures, whether you're preparing to, like, run a marathon or hike the Camino, things that, gosh, it's just so tough to do alongside the nine to five. Even tango. I took a month off just, Just to learn tango because it, like I said, it takes a long time to learn. So to speed up that learning curve, I went all in for a month.
- [12:26]
Jillian
So I. I love what you're saying, totally. But there's a part of me that also says, like, isn't this just the American way of doing things where we're like, we gotta make the most of our time? Like, let's optimize to the, you know, to the hilt, as opposed to, I guess, the maybe. And maybe this is why the first thing you said was to kind of recover from burnout, which to me just sounds like taking a break, like, taking it easy. Uh, in fact, what's on your to do list is nothing is. I mean, is that what it looks like to recover from. From burnout? And is that why that. That's at the top of the list? Because folks are looking to not have a to do list. They're not looking for a list of accomplishments at the end of a mini retirement.
- [13:03]
Joel
I don't recommend that. It can be really tough if people don't have a lot of practice organizing their schedule because they were in school and then college and then work and other people have organized your schedule for you for so long. It can be tough to do that well. And most people don't intuitively know how to recover. So it can be really possible to slip into, like, the lowest common denominator, which might be like scrolling Instagram and watching Netflix instead of doing things that I like to call it, like, things that for you are active rest. Whether that's going for a walk or going out to have a beer with a friend, or traveling or reading a book or meditating, knowing what are those activities that I do that actually help me feel more rested. And you don't have to schedule every minute of the day, but. But if you have four or five or six of those kind of on your to do list, your to do list might look like, take a nap today, take a bath, read a book, call my mom. But it can be helpful at the end of the day. You look and you say, actually I did exactly what I needed to do. Like, I'm, I'm fully leaning into this intention and I'm not, I don't know, people can kind of feel a little untethered and a little restless and a little bit like, I'm not sure if I'm doing the right thing right now. If they don't have a tiny bit.
- [14:30]
Jillian
Of structure, do you think that that's harder for folks who are, who work for an employer, for folks who are W2 employees who typically have things delivered to them as opposed to somebody who's typically been self employed?
- [14:45]
Joel
Not really. I mean, most self employed people struggle with boundaries, they struggle with work, life balance. They struggle with prioritizing their time. You know, they're, they're constantly responding to demands and so, yeah, they have a little bit more agency in organizing their time and most still struggle with it because it's, it's a hard thing to do.
- [15:11]
Matt
And many of them work more hours than your typical W2 employee. So, yes, yeah. In some ways work might make up a bigger portion of their life than the person who goes, you know, work at the office for somebody else. Matt mentioned the American thing of over optimizing. It's interesting because many retirements in general, to me, they come off as like a little French. Right. When you travel to Paris, there's, there's always a couple of trains that aren't.
- [15:38]
Jillian
Working to take the month of August off, right? Yes, yes. Whole country shuts down.
- [15:42]
Matt
Yeah. And there's like pros and cons, right? Because. Yeah, or you run in, you know, who you always run into when you're on a big trip is Australians. And they're like, yeah, we're just taking a few months off and it's just kind of like standard par for the course in America. We have this like inheritance from the Puritans that is, hey, nose to the grindstone. We're going to work our butts off and we're going to succeed and prosper because of it. So I don't know, how do you help? I'm feeling this a little bit too as we go into this, where work has been an important part of my life and creating this, this podcast and this business remains that and will be that eight weeks from now. But how do I detach maybe from this mindset that's become so ingrained?
- [16:26]
Joel
Yeah, there is, especially in work focused cultures, there is a morality to work. Good people work, honest people work, dedicated people work, people who are committed to the outcome. You know, Work hard. And it is really ingrained. So one of the kind of metaphors I use that can be helpful for some people. I played basketball in high school. I was in a very like sports obsessed small town in Montana here. And, and during the middle of the game you take a halftime. And this is true high school all the way up to pro basketball. The most dedicated players take a halftime. The most committed to the outcome of the game take a halftime. The most hard working players take a halftime. Because that's the moment where you rest, you recharge and you reimagine how the next half of this game is going to go. Because sometimes when you're in thick of it and you're in the moment, it's hard to like pull yourself out of a mindset or a path and really say, okay, the first, first half didn't go so great. Like, let's think about how we're going to make this different moving forward. And so if you think about these mini retirements, it's like, this is what high performance people do. This is what people do who are very committed to their work. When they're very committed to the outcomes, they care so much that they're willing to recalibra and reimagine and rest so they can show up more fully for the second half of the game.
- [18:03]
Jillian
When you, when you put it in terms like that, it makes it seem like that we should be taking a year off because we're about to enter into like midlife crisis. Because I don't, I mean, at the age we are, I mean, we're in our 40s now. Like, these are like, we start having some of these conversations, we start asking some of these questions, we start thinking about like, we have family around us who are aging as well. And it becomes incredibly tangible. And then you look at your kids and you think, man, like the time I have with you, it's, it's limited. And I don't know, you, obviously you've got, you've got to balance that. And maybe we should have said this at the beginning. Like this entire conversation is incredibly privileged, right? The fact that a lot of how to money listeners won't have the ability, ability to do something like this maybe for a little bit, maybe while they're clawing their way out of debt. But I also think that there are a ton of listeners who have been doing the right thing for years or even decades. They were doing the right thing before we even started talking on the mic, Joel. And so because of that, they have the ability to Pull something like this off. That's an incredible position to be in. So I'm pointing out the balance that you gotta strike between, like, feeling like you gotta follow your heart's desire and pouring into kids and whatnot. And actually, so I mentioned kids. How do you think about Kit? Like, you've got a bunch of kids. And it's interesting. Cause in your email, you were saying, hey, I would love to talk with y' all if y' all want to talk about this before the kids get out for school. It sounded like you were having that shape, the work that you were willing or to not, you know, not willing to do this summer. How much of an impact do your kids and your ability to pour into them, how does that impact how you view work, how much you are willing to work?
- [19:43]
Joel
A hundred percent. But can I loop back just because we're friends, just for sure?
- [19:47]
Jillian
Sure, sure. Yeah. There's a.
- [19:48]
Matt
There's a lot.
- [19:49]
Jillian
I Talked for, like, 10 minutes just.
- [19:50]
Joel
Now because you mentioned, like, it being a very privileged position. And I think there is sometimes this mindset of, like, this is for people who have half a million dollars. This is for people who make $100,000. And it's. It's funny on my side because I see the whole spectrum of people. Everyone has a reason that it's hard for them. The people who make $200,000 say it's impossible for me to take a month off because I'm too important. Like, they need me at work. Like, there's no way that they could survive without me for a month. Maybe they have the funds to do it, but they don't feel like they have access to the time where I took many retirements. You know, me and my. My previous spouse, we never made a lot of money. Like, I worked a lot of normal jobs. I worked Starbucks, I worked at rei, I sold mattresses. And in the book, I talk about in order to take a month off every year, like, if that's kind of this, this goal, like this, this biggest aspiration, I'm gonna take a month off every year for my whole working career. You have to save an additional six and a half percent. And the great thing, if you're only bringing home $2,000 a month, $3,000 a month, is. We're talking like a couple hundred bucks. A couple hundred bucks. And you can take a month off every other year and do these really incredible adventures, have these amazing experiences because you don't have to replace as much living cost. And in the book, I kind of talk about, like, if you're earlier in your financial journey, pick the more affordable things. You don't have to do an around the world cruise. When I was in my 20s, you know, we had paid off debt. I think getting out of credit card debt, solid goal. And we were saving. But a friend and I did a month long road trip D.C. to Seattle and back in my Honda, my green Honda Civic. Like we slept on people's couches and we camped and like we almost got stampled by bison. It was like a really great trip and I think it was like 3,000 bucks. Like it wasn't a massive amount of money. And I paid for the whole thing because I was like, honey, I got the money if you've got the time. Like, let's go.
- [22:02]
Matt
Now you're making me think. Actually, I have had a mini retirement. It was when I was like 21, I was working in my first job in radio and I decided to wake up way too early and it was like the morning show, which is just like the worst shift that ages you like a president. And so my buddy was like, well, let's buy a cheap station wagon and drive around the country. And we did for three months and we had the greatest time and it cost so little money and I didn't have almost anything saved. So I think you're right that my mini retirement now with kids and in my 40s is gonna look a lot.
- [22:37]
Jillian
Gonna look different.
- [22:38]
Matt
It's gonna look a lot different.
- [22:39]
Jillian
Doesn't have to be the around the world thing.
- [22:40]
Matt
No. And it won't be.
- [22:41]
Jillian
But. So I guess that's just me projecting Jillian, where I'm just like, oh man. Oh. I feel, I guess like there's a certain amount of gratitude that we should all feel to be able to pull something like that off. Off altogether. But what you're speaking to here is that it doesn't have to be this amazing, no holds barred, sort of trip.
- [22:59]
Matt
Around the world, Instagram worthy mini retirement that people gawk at and lust over.
- [23:04]
Jillian
But you percent to the kids thing. Did you want to touch on that?
- [23:07]
Joel
Yes. Let's talk about kids. There is, gosh, I. One of, I think the biggest motivations for people to take mini retirements is this idea that there are seasons with expiration dates. Like, if you don't do it now, that window's going to close and there's no going back. There's a whole bunch of things in your life that like, they just won't hold until you're 65. I remember me and my kiddos were doing a 10 week trip. We did 10 national parks in a pop up camper with our dog. And we, we'd already been on the road for maybe seven, eight weeks and we were in Yosemite. And I remember waking up thinking, oh, this is probably the last time we can do this. Like, if we, if we didn't do this now, like this, this will not sit on the shelf for 15 more years. My kids in their 20s are not going to be in a pop up camper with me. All seven touring the US without Wi Fi. And so there is a sense of like, you know, retirement in your 60s is great, but you might have missed your window. I was talking about family and like parents aging. I was just interviewing Doug, who hosts the Mile hi Fi podcast about his mini retirement. And he did a six week trip to Alaska. And you know, all of his friends are working, all of his siblings are working, but his parents were retired. So his parents went with him. And he was like, it was incredible. Like, we spent six weeks in the car with my parents. Like, it's so rare in middle age to get that much time with your parents. That's so cool. Those days are so numbered. And he's like, went to Alaska. It was so beautiful. We had this amazing thing. It was 2019 and a month later his mom got diagnosed with cancer and then she passed away a year after that. Like, that was, they had no idea. But like, that was the last moment. That was the last opportunity he could have done that. And I'm sure you guys, like, are in the thick of it. Like, mini retirements are such a hassle. They legitimately are. They're logistically challenging and mentally challenging and emotionally challenging and financially challenging. And all of those challenges fade in the rear view mirror every passing year. When you look back, those challenges get smaller and smaller and smaller. Like, Joel, I'm sure for you, like, looking back at the challenges that of taking that three month road trip, like, at the time it was like, oh, this is like a lot. And now you're like, whatever. That was nothing. Like, the challenges mean nothing. But the experience in the rearview mirror gets bigger and bigger and bigger and more meaningful because, yeah, your kids are young and like, they're not going to be that age again. Like, this is your one shot.
- [25:59]
Jillian
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- [26:32]
Matt
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- [26:47]
Jillian
Nice.
- [26:47]
Matt
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- [26:59]
Jillian
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- [27:14]
Matt
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- [27:49]
Jillian
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- [28:20]
Matt
Yeah, we can't control everything, but Trust and Will can help you take control of protecting your family's future. Trustandwill.com howtomoney and get 20% off. That's 20% off@trustandwill.com howtomoney I still remember the birth of my first child. You never forget that day. But aside from the joy, it made me think long and hard about a slew of things. Life insurance included. Matt I'd never felt the need before, but I knew at that point in time it became a necessity for our family. And policy genius, of course, makes finding and buying life insurance simple. Ensuring that your loved ones have a financial safety net they can use to cover debts and routine expenses. With Policygenius, you can find life insurance policies starting at just $276 a year for $1 million in coverage. It's an easy way to protect the people you love and feel good about the future.
- [29:07]
Jillian
Yeah, we talk about our wives and our kids here on the show all the time. Joel, you've got three, I've got four kids. That is. Well, if you are in a similar boat. Life insurance is crucial to take care of your family. If something happens to you, this isn't something that feels especially urgent. It's not a text message or a call from your boss that you've got to get back to. But it is vitally important if your loved ones count on your income in life insurance, it's not a one size fits all product and PolicyGenius doesn't treat it like one. They lay out all of your options clearly your coverage, amounts, prices, terms. There is no guesswork, just clarity.
- [29:40]
Matt
Secure your family's future with Policygenius. Head to Policygenius.com to compare free life insurance quotes from top companies and see how much you could save. That's policygenius.com okay, from our business perspective, right, we're, we're piecing out of here for a little while. They're going to hear I'll call them classic Matt and Joel episodes that are still worth listening to. Please do check your podcast, especially if you haven't been around long. They're going to be they're great episodes.
- [30:11]
Jillian
There's a reason we call them besties, right?
- [30:13]
Matt
Yeah, it kind of takes something good. So what should I, how much should Matt and I be in touch with business stuff while we're gone, even though we're not recording new content? And what would you, what would you say to the worried part of me who's like a lot of these people who are listening to this episode, maybe like five weeks from now they're going to be like, I'm done with those guys. Are they ever coming back? And yes, we are coming back.
- [30:38]
Joel
So not, not specific to you, but for self employed people in general, for your first mini retirement, I encourage about 10% of whatever you normally work. If you can reduce whatever your work hours are to 10%, it seems to be a sweet spot of really allowing you to lean into whatever those goals or intentions are, while not adding additional stress that things are burning down. It actually takes sometimes more emotional energy to not know what's happening than to just check in for an hour and be like, oh, okay, everything's fine. And we put out that little fire. So I find for the first one, you know, a month, two months is a great time frame, doing 10% of the work. So if you work 40 hours, maybe do 10, do four hours, maybe 10 hours a week. And the first week is kind of the hardest because you're, like, almost having kind of, I don't know, not withdrawals, but, like, it feels so unfamiliar to be out of that routine crisis. But you start to settle in, and by the end you're like, I don't need to look at any emails. They're fine, they're fine. Everything's fine. We're having fun. But, yeah, you'll find that five, ten hours a week usually is a good starting spot. And, you know, with your business, like, as a business owner, you can. You can make that choice either way. Like, you guys could have said, you know what, we're gonna, like, work a ton more before we leave. We're gonna get all this work. We're gonna record all these episodes in advance, or we're gonna bring on guest hosts, or we're gonna, like, do all this extra work, because if someone bails, like, that's not an outcome that we can live with. Like, it's too detrimental to our lives in our business. And so you hustle a little bit more on the front end and you do a little bit more of that logistics, or if you're like, ultimately, this is the lifestyle we want to have. And so I'm going to build a business that matches the life I want to have, even if that business is slightly different than how it looks currently.
- [32:42]
Jillian
That's emotionally hard, though, right? I mean, that's the.
- [32:45]
Matt
Like, there's.
- [32:46]
Jillian
There's a part of me that's like, yeah, this, like that. Like, I love it. Like, I am all about that. But, like, it's one thing to mentally know that and to say and to write down on paper that, yes, we are in a position to. Where we can step away like this. We are in a position where we can lose some listeners. If, you know, so be it. It's another Thing to actually follow through and to actually do the thing. I feel like the emotional hurdle for most folks is likely going to be the most difficult part of it. What would you say? Like, how else would you coach someone through? I guess that emotional component, maybe some of that fear.
- [33:23]
Joel
There's so much fear and there's like a hundred different flavors of fear. But to address, like the business aspect, two mindsets and perspectives that can be helpful. One, the clients you lose, the listeners you lose are typically the worst ones.
- [33:41]
Matt
All the good ones are going to stick around.
- [33:43]
Joel
No offense to anyone listening who's like, I'll peace out. But the people who are so demanding and so unreasonable and they ask so much of you, those are the clients that are like, this doesn't work for me. And you keep your best clients, you keep your best listeners. The ones that are like, oh, wait, you're a human being and want to live a life. And I can respect that and deal with the slight discomfort of not having a brand new episode every week. And then on the other side, there are so many logistics. Like, it's such a pain to do all of the work to organize your business and simplify things, automate things, delegate things, document things. Like, all four of those steps are a crap ton of work. But when people come back, let's say you were both working 40 hours a week now, and you've managed to figure out how to get that down to 10 for these, let's say eight weeks, you come back and you might be like, oh, actually it doesn't take me 40 hours anymore. Like, I can, we can do this in 30. And now you have this extra 10 hours to build that cool new thing that you didn't. You like the idea, but you never had time for or to expand this thing or to take on another project or you can save. Actually, the business is doing great. Like, let's just keep those 10 hours as like, bonus lifestyle hours. And from now on, I only work 30 hours a week. And I've seen business owners go both ways. Like, I mutual friend of ours, I interviewed PT on my show because he stepped away from his conference for like two years and did like a massive reset. And it's so much work to logistically step away from something you created. But then when he came back, he bought like two more businesses. Like, he tripled what he was doing because he had this bandwidth and now he had this team that was like, able to handle his one business. And he's like, there's absolutely no way. If I was just running the one business I ever would have bought, two more businesses, like, because I didn't have the time or the space or the energy for it.
- [35:51]
Matt
Yeah, I was going to ask you about, like, there was new data out not too long ago about how the average American is working fewer hours than they than they have in a long time. Work hours, especially for younger workers on a weekly basis have decreased by a not insignificant amount. But it sounds like what you're saying. I was going to say, well, what do you think? Is it better to pull the mini retirement rip cord or to kind of prioritize your general average work week to just be less work centric and have more free time? But it sounds like you're saying the mini retirement is almost like the propellant to give you better work weeks and hopefully just more balanced work weeks in the future.
- [36:33]
Joel
Yeah, I would say both. Like, a mini retirement is a great, like, hard reset and it can get you up to that baseline. If someone were to say, I want to struggle with exhaustion and fatigue in my job for 30 hours a week, or should I take six weeks off and like, actually come back 100%? I think most people are happier when they can show up to work excited, energized, creative, like motivated. When they can bring that energy, they enjoy what they're doing more. Whether you're doing it 30 hours a week or 40 hours a week, those hours are just better. I remember being a kid and thinking, gosh, people in their 40s are boring. Like, they just, they don't seem excited about anything. They don't seem interested. They're not doing any cool things. And then I got to my 40s and I was like, oh, no, they're just tired. They're not boring. They're just tired. It's so easy, especially in midlife, to just feel overwhelmed by all of the different responsibilities. But I have found when people take mini retirements, it's like rolling back the clock. Depending how long they're gone, they take six months off, a year, two years off. All of a sudden, instead of feeling, I'm 42, so we'll say 42, they feel 35. And then six months later they're like, actually, I feel 30. And then six months later, like, actually, this is what I felt like at 25. Like this level of like creativity and excitement and enthusiasm I have for life. Like, I'm not, I'm not boring. I was just tired.
- [38:10]
Jillian
Makes sense. I get that.
- [38:11]
Matt
I see the bags under your eyes, Matt.
- [38:14]
Jillian
No, I mean, it just makes sense. And I think what you were saying to Joel, just finding ways to maybe reduce some of those hours. Like, yes, you can come back recharged, but even I think for some folks, it is that day in, day out margin that they are able to not even shoehorn into their life anymore, but to proactively, constructively craft and to create room for these other aspects of life. Right. Like these other facets, these other, other parts of our, our life that maybe we think we need to work on or even know we need to work on. How would you, how would you recommend for someone to do that? Like, if someone is thinking, well, I'm not even sure what aspect of my life I should be focusing on. Joel, like earlier you mentioned something about like a spiritual journey. There's this framework, the spire journey. So it's like spiritual. What is it? Our relation? Relational, intellectual, Physical. Physical. That's the P part. Yeah. Emotional. Emotional health as well. Do you have any sort of rules of thumb or any sort of methodology that you would recommend for folks to examine their life? Because I think there might be a lot of folks and there might be some of these arenas in their life that they need a walk down, that they aren't even aware of the fact that this is an area of their life that hasn't, you know, it's like a piece of this patchwork of dirt that hasn't had a rake touch it in years or decades. And it's, there's, you know, there's some weeding, there's some plowing, there's some shoveling that needs to happen in that part of their life. How would you recommend for folks to think through that?
- [39:45]
Joel
I mean, okay, so ideally, yes, try to figure this out before you start. But I also understand some people have no mental and emotional bandwidth. Their job is taking all of it. And so they walk out of that like burned to a crisp. Like in my group coaching, I say, you know, if you're planning a mini retirement in the next year or if you're in one, ideally, yeah, you start figuring this stuff out before you start. But I know a lot of people can't, like, they can't even. They can't watch a five minute video. Like there are no new thoughts happening in their head because they're so burned out and so overwhelmed. So if you're in the mini retirement and need to figure it out, I. The step four of my book is like how to navigate the journey and some unexpected things that'll pop up. And so for better or worse, I have this concept called like the messy kitchen. And that when, you know, at night, let's say, you're really tired and you don't clean up your kitchen after dinner and in the morning, like you're really busy and trying to get out of the house for work and for kids. And so you leave your messy kitchen, but you go to work all day. And at work, you don't see the messy kitchen. At work, you don't have to deal with the messy kitchen. Like, the break room looks great and you can kind of avoid it because it's not ever present in front of you. And there are a whole bunch of people that have been trying to outrun an avalanche and they've just worked harder and they've worked faster and they've worked longer. So they don't have to deal with these parts of their life that are complicated and hard and messy. And sometimes people feel like, like they go on a mini retirement. And the mini retirement creates problems. Actually, the mini retirement's really good at revealing the problems that were always there, that work was effectively covering up for you. And so that can be a bummer. You're like, oh, actually I don't have many friends, or I'm not in that great a shape, or my kids don't actually enjoy hanging out with me very much. And that's a super bummer to realize. But the mini retirement is also the solution because now you have the time and the energy and the bandwidth to fix some of these things. You know, if you've been running from, from bad habits or mental health issues or childhood trauma or all a host, a variety of things, the mini retirement, you'll. You just get to sit in that messy kitchen and you'll, you'll figure it out real quick what you should be working on.
- [42:22]
Jillian
Yeah. So it's almost like, I like what I hear you saying is like, wherever there's going to be some discomfort, which there is inevitably gonna be, to almost not ignore that, because that's typically what we do. Right. Like, we just ignore. We preoccupy ourselves. Oh, nine o' clock. Gotta, gotta check into the office, gotta show up in the chat, whatever it is. But what I hear you saying is to lean into that, to lean into that discomfort, to, like, look at square in the face the thing that is making us squirm a little bit with this additional time. And maybe that in and of itself is the thing that somehow we need to get to the bottom of.
- [42:56]
Joel
Absolutely. Because you will not outrun the avalanche forever. Like it will. You can either pause and deal with it or it Will bury you unexpectedly at the least convenient moment of your life. So, like, you can't outrun these consequences. And. And it's one of the reasons that, like, traditional retirement can be a rough transition, because they've been trying to outrun it for a long time, and now they're staring down the barrel of 30 more years. And it's not just the kitchen that's messy. There's a lot of areas of their life that are messy, and that's. It's hard enough to change one thing about our lives. So in my kind of dark humor, I think doing multiple mini retirements is like a great opportunity to spread out the disappointment and the pain. Don't do it with it all at the end. Just space it out. Deal with a little bit of disappointment, a little bit of discomfort, you know, every couple years, and keep up on it.
- [43:55]
Matt
Yeah.
- [43:56]
Jillian
Just only focus on how you're a disappointment to your family during this mini retirement. And you can save the physical fitness part for next year.
- [44:04]
Joel
Have you been reading my journal? That's too close to home.
- [44:09]
Jillian
Just trying to appreciate Jillian's dark humor.
- [44:18]
Matt
I still remember the birth of my first child. You never forget that day. But aside from the joy, it made me think long and hard about a slew of things, life insurance included. Matt. I'd never felt the need before, but I knew at that point in time it became a necessity for our family. And policy Genius, of course, makes finding and buying life insurance simple. Ensuring that your loved ones have a financial safety net they can use to cover debts and routine expenses. With Policygenius, you can find life insurance policies starting at just $276 a year for $1 million in coverage. It's an easy way to protect the people you love and feel good about the future.
- [44:53]
Jillian
Yeah, we talk about our wives and our kids here on the show all the time. Joel, you've got three. I've got four kids. That is. Well, if you are in a similar boat. Life insurance is crucial to take care of your family. If something happens to you, this isn't something that feels especially urgent. It's not a text message or a call from your boss that you've got to get back to. But it is vitally important. If your loved ones count on your income in life insurance, it's not a one size fits all product. And policy genius doesn't treat it like one. They lay out all of your options clearly. Your coverage, amounts, prices, terms. There is no guesswork, just clarity.
- [45:25]
Matt
Secure your family's future with Policygenius. Head to Policygenius.com to compare free life insurance quotes from top companies and see how much you could save. That's policygenius.com looking for a smarter way to teach your child to ride a bike and support American jobs at the same time? Most kids bikes are just cheap imports. They're heavy, clunky, hard for kids to control. Guardian Bikes is changing that. They're assembling bikes right here in the USA with plans for full US Manufacturing in the next few months. It's a commitment to higher quality and American craftsmanship you can trust. Each bike is lightweight, low to the ground and built to help kids learn to ride faster, many in just one day. No training wheels needed.
- [46:04]
Jillian
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- [46:33]
Matt
That's guardianbikes.com built in the USA, made specifically for kids.
- [46:37]
Jillian
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- [47:03]
Matt
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- [47:24]
Jillian
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- [47:43]
Matt
Jillian it's kind of weird Matt hinted at the kind of privilege of being able to take a mini retirement. And you kind of said, well, actually, it's more accessible than most people like to think. But when you're telling your friend about, or your co worker or you're like parents or something like that, who busted their butt for 40 years to get the gold watch kind of thing, and you're like, hey, I'm gonna take this thing called a mini retirement. I'm gonna take like three months off of work. And. And they're like, must be nice. Like, I'm sure that's a common refrain that you get from. From people around you who can't fathom how it's possible and think you must be like, independently wealthy or something like that. That who should we tell and how should we be telling them about this break to avoid the super awkward conversations?
- [48:31]
Joel
Oh, my gosh, this thing could go off the rails so quick. Yeah, Actually, last night in the group coaching, we were talking about this exact topic. How do we structure these conversations with co workers, friends and family? Those are three very distinct groups. And first, like, so there's two rules of memoir. If you're writing a memoir, it all has to be true. And the second rule is it cannot be the whole truth. If you try to include every detail, you will lose the plot. So curate what percentage of the truth you're going to tell and keep it super simple. Like, don't focus on the question marks. Keep it to the very tangible things that you do know. For example, like, yeah, I need to take this time off. I've been really burned out. The last five years have been super busy. I'm really going to focus on my kind of meditation and yoga practice. Planning to do like a yoga retreat in Thailand for three weeks to kind of cap it all off. Looking forward to coming back really refreshed. Keep it real simple and don't, don't invite other people's emotional baggage because they have their own biases, they have their own values, they have their own complicated relationship with work and money. Like, there's probably no two things that trigger people more than work and money, and they will want to project all of that on you. And so having some emotional boundaries of like, and sometimes if I'm feeling really ornery, like, every once in a while I'm sassy. If I'm feeling really sassy and people aren't getting this emotional boundary, I'll literally, like, turn the script on them. If they say things like, I don't know how you do that. Like, aren't you going to be so worried about Your career. Like, I think this isn't this financially, like too big of a risk. I'll say. I can, I can see how, how you would be worried about your career if you took a mini retirement and maybe it would be a big financial risk for you. Like that's their stuff that they're trying to put on you and it's not yours to pick up. Like, you don't have to pick that up. So having those boundaries. And another pro tip, if you are in a work obsessed culture, there is something about a work obsessed culture that there's this idea of if you've earned the reward, then it's justified. And so sometimes if you put in just a sentence or two of, we've been planning this for a long time. It took a lot of savings and kind of logistics to figure it out. But now we're able to take this year off and do this road trip with our kids and we're really excited about it. And people are like, oh wait, you did the work and you earned this reward. Okay, that's, that's acceptable versus if you were like, yeah, I don't know, I just kind of just winging it. Like, I was so burned out, I just left. Like, we're going to go take a year off. Then they're like, no, no, no, you haven't earned it yet. So you can kind of play on that. Yeah, yeah, cultural narrative there.
- [51:37]
Jillian
One of those seems easier than the other. Right? Like obviously it's going to be easier to play the game, to agree with the assumptions that they are operating their life by. Does that feel like a cop out to you? Because in one sense, what's the harder thing to do here is to be truthful. Like the easy thing to do is to say, yeah, we've been working on this, we're gonna do it. X equals Y or you know, X plus whatever.
- [52:02]
Matt
X plus Y equals Z.
- [52:04]
Jillian
The road trip, like that's the easy thing. But the harder thing seems to me to be like to be less agreeable and to say, yeah, we're not totally sure, so, but we're just gonna do this thing. I like that though, because that feeds into this sort of countercultural narrative that hey, life isn't linear or just because you've worked hard, that doesn't necessarily mean that you can then achieve whatever the thing is. And you're even saying too, you know, I mean, Joel, the fact that you were even meant, you mentioned like the pre career mini retirement. Yeah. Or you, Jillian, talking about how like you've taken tons of these. Right. And so. And we're trying to fight back against the. Oh, yes, you're gonna work 40, 50 years, and then you can retire. That's the linear sort of model. It's almost more work.
- [52:51]
Matt
The Warren Buffett model where you step down at age 94.
- [52:53]
Joel
Yeah, it's almost.
- [52:55]
Jillian
It's almost more work, to be honest. And. But I feel like that. That has, I don't know, almost like, a higher ability to impact people for the better.
- [53:05]
Joel
I would say whatever you have emotional bandwidth to do, like, if you want to go out and chase the world and, like, fight with a bunch of people and, like, have a bunch of people argue with you, then, like, have at it. But like I said, many retirements are a pain in the butt. And if you just don't have that emotional energy to engage in, like, fruitless arguments with people and, like, hear other people unpack all their baggage on you, if you're like, I. I've got enough on my plate, then, you know, come up with a real simple answer and leave it at that. But there are certain people that will ask more honest questions. They will be more curious. They're not just pushing their baggage on you. They. They legitimately want to know. And then there can be a fun conversation of, like, just buy my book and slip it, like, in their desk and be like, read this and we'll talk about it in, like, a month. Like, start a secret book club with, like, all of your co workers. Like, that can be fun. But sometimes I find people aren't asking what I call, like, an honest question. They're just projecting their fear. Like, don't you think this is a bad idea? That's not an honest question. An honest question is like, oh, you're thinking about a career pivot. That's cool. Like, what might you want to do next? I'll answer any honest question, but I don't have a ton of bandwidth to, like, carry other people's stuff. My stuff's heavy enough.
- [54:30]
Matt
It's like trying to get in the YouTube comments and right every wrong. It's like, I don't know, man. Probably not worth your time. Or Twitter. Okay, so, Jillian, we. Matt and I, we're gonna be. We got one more episode coming out, and then we're gonna be out until the beginning of August. So do you have any questions for us or any last words of wisdom for us before we embark on. I guess, technically it's my second mini retirement. It's Matt's first. I just thought of that as, like, a youthful excursion. But looking back, I'm like, oh no, it really was one of those things. It really was that for me. So, yeah. Do you have any thoughts for us as we end this conversation?
- [55:09]
Joel
Yes. So one of the tools, step four is do a weekly check in. Because this thing will get away from you and it will go off the rails. Like it just will, no matter how well you have it planned. You know, in group coaching, I always encourage people like we're, we spend like 16 weeks doing this. This is not like a quick process. So in theory you would have like this airtight plan. No, no, no, we don't. We have a 60% plan and 40% we have to acknowledge is make believe. It's just assumptions. It's how we think it's gonna go. But as you get into the mini retirement, think about each week as like, I'm running an experiment, I'm testing a hypothesis and at the end of the week I'm going to see how did that work out? Like, did that go how I thought it did? Take that new information, swap out actual information for some of the make believe stuff you had in that plan and test it again the next week. Because the time will get away from you. Like some things will just go off the rails. You know, one of the people last night was like, like, I thought this was gonna be like super relaxing and like, things are chaotic and the house is busy and like the kids and like, it's not, it's not what I imagine. I'm like, okay, yeah, cool. Now we regroup and like, we test some new things and we try some new things. And so I think if more people had those check ins, check in with your spouse, check in with your kids, like check in with people in your life, that could be very helpful. And the second thing is, like, acknowledge that 40% of it is make believe and be willing to pivot accordingly. You know, I remember one of my group coaching clients last year, like, knew she was a little burned out, but like planned this massive epic trip. And I always say that's cool. Like plan cool trips, but make sure you're willing to pivot. Like, make sure you're willing to be flexible. Because there can be an emotional suffering that we add onto ourselves by being disappointed things aren't going as planned. And you might find a week in, two weeks in, I'm exhausted, I'm so burned out. Like, I'm dreading the schedule that we've created for ourselves. Don't push through that. Do your weekly check in and say, actually this Sucks. We need to do something different and rebook some reservations, slow it down, do less activities like make those pivots and be emotionally okay with making those pivots that you're not failing at it. You're just learning as you go.
- [57:43]
Jillian
Yeah. Gosh, that's so good. Yeah. To bring, I don't want to bring it back to personal finance, but like that's sunk cost fallacy. Right? Like when we are so emotional, emotionally committed to something that we follow through with it anyway, even to the overall detriments of the overall portfolio expense or in this case, person. But Jillian, man, we really, as always, truly appreciate you taking the time to, to chat with us on a personal level. But just for you to share your wisdom with our listeners as well, we'll make sure to link specifically to your book retire often when it comes out. We'll make sure to feature it as well once it actually does publish, probably in the newsletter or something like that. But yeah, thank you so much for talking with us today.
- [58:25]
Joel
Awesome. I am so excited for your mini retirement. I hope it's awesome and if it goes off the rails, just give me a call that will help you problem solve.
- [58:34]
Jillian
We will, we will. Thank you so much for that offer.
- [58:37]
Joel
Yep.
- [58:37]
Matt
All right, Matt, this is a different episode.
- [58:39]
Jillian
Very different.
- [58:40]
Matt
Not a Friday flight. I'm sure there's like some tariff monstrosity going on that we're not talking about today. Looks like talk about the stock market, not today. So. Okay, man, this is kind of a self gratifying episode in one way, but hopefully it's also helpful for everyone else out there listening.
- [58:57]
Jillian
Well, I think that's why we felt the freedom to do something like this as well. Because this wasn't just a personal quest. But. But yeah, I think there are some takeaways that folks were able to glean from our conversation. And we actually, just before I hit record again, debated whether or not we would even do the big takeaway because we were like, let's just talk with Jillian and see what happens.
- [59:15]
Matt
I was like, we have to mention the beer.
- [59:16]
Jillian
But we still had a beer on the episode. Did you want to share just like a brief big takeaway briefly?
- [59:22]
Matt
I thought when she said the term active rest. And I love the way that sounds. Cause I don't want to this time.
- [59:29]
Jillian
Away to be like, you don't want to fall into a Netflix binge watching.
- [59:33]
Matt
Not at all stupor. And I watch so little tv. I just don't. And there's definitely some shows I'm like, I'd Love to catch up on that. Still want to watch the Brutalist? Haven't watched that somehow yet. Maybe I'll dedicate.
- [59:44]
Jillian
You got it. You got to save that for the mini retirement because that's when you'll finally have the time.
- [59:47]
Matt
I will dedicate four hours to watch a four hour film, but maybe to nothing else. But I like the idea of active rest where you're engaging in the activities that are going to give you life and you're not just zoning out. Because, man, I don't know about you, but especially with my kids, if they've zoned out in front of the tv, their attitudes are terrible. I think the same is true for me. If I spend too much time in front of the tv, my attitude goes down the drain. I want to partake in rest, but I want to do it hopefully in a healthy, productive way.
- [60:17]
Jillian
Totally. My big takeaway is going to be the phrase that she said that. That there are seasons with expiration dates and shouldn't be surprising. I feel like both of our big takeaways are indicative of like where our head and where our hearts are at and maybe what, you know, with what we're hoping to do with the time, but in specifically and how that pertains to having kids at home if, if that's you. If you got a family. But even if you don't, there are different seasons. Right. Like we all have parents and so what does that look like the example she gave with Doug and his parents with that road trip that they took up to Alaska. When it comes to different expiration dates that we have on our own health and the ability to do. Do certain things, I think it's worth taking stock and that's one of the things you're able to do hopefully ahead of time. That way you can make the most of the time off.
- [60:59]
Matt
But sometimes you just got to get there first.
- [61:01]
Jillian
Yeah, I think. Yeah. And that was, gosh, you can't outrun the avalanche. Sometimes you don't know what it is that you're going to face during the mini retirement. And it's a great time to turn and face the avalanche. And in a, like a proactive kind of, oh, this is going to overtake me. But I've got the bandwidth with to deal with this at this point in my life.
- [61:21]
Matt
All right, let's mention the beer we had.
- [61:23]
Jillian
Yes.
- [61:23]
Matt
This one.
- [61:24]
Jillian
What was it called?
- [61:24]
Matt
Bone Church. Bone Church by the fine folks over at Creature Comforts.
- [61:28]
Jillian
This is the. A Czech style amber lager. What you think, dude?
- [61:33]
Matt
Gorgeous. By the way, it Was called Bone Church. I had to look this up because apparently there is a church just outside of Prague that has bones from tens of thousands of people decorating the entire church. From the chandeliers, coats of arms from the Black Death. Yes.
- [61:48]
Jillian
Right. Yeah.
- [61:49]
Matt
And it looks awesome. Like, I totally want to go check this out.
- [61:52]
Jillian
There's folks listening who are like, yeah, bro, I checked that out during my sabbatical that I took exactly when I was traveling.
- [61:58]
Matt
Not going to Prague on this one, but maybe on the next time. This beer, though, gorgeous amber color, delightful caramel vibes.
- [62:04]
Jillian
Nice and clean at the same time, though, really nice.
- [62:06]
Matt
Like, had a lot of, like, little idiosyncratic flavors coming through, shining through. It was not plain. Even though this style sometimes can be one note, this one was not. I just, I really enjoyed it.
- [62:16]
Jillian
It was tasty. Glad that you and I got to share this one. And yeah, we hope everyone, ooh, has a fantastic weekend. That's not normally something we say at the end of a conversation or an interview with a friend, but we'll see.
- [62:29]
Matt
You back here next week for on.
- [62:30]
Jillian
Monday because We've got our 1000th episode on Monday. The Ask me Anything and we're gonna talk about everything. We're gonna talk a little bit about money, but a lot about hopefully. Gosh, are we doing two self indulgent episodes in a row?
- [62:45]
Matt
No, no. These are their questions that they have for us.
- [62:47]
Jillian
That's true, that's true. True.
- [62:48]
Matt
So catch that on Monday.
- [62:49]
Jillian
Look forward to that.
- [62:50]
Matt
But until then, until next time, best friends out.
- [62:52]
Jillian
Best friends out. Man. We really appreciate you taking the time to, like, yes. Wade through some of this in a very meadow way for us personally, but then also for the show sitting on all the fronts.
- [63:17]
Joel
I think it's awesome. And I think. I think by the end you're gonna be like, yeah, this is the path forward. Like, we're 100% doing this again.
- [63:26]
Matt
Like, Matt's always been pushing us more in this direction. I'm. I'm kind of the. My dad was kind of the dude who worked 60 hours a week. And so it was just what I saw modeled and I was like, that must be the way. And so Matt's always kind of pushed us towards us. And so we. Even now we work four days a week and we work pretty, like, I don't know, pretty flex hours. Pretty flex hours and stuff like that. So from that standpoint, but this was like another step in that direction. That feels like a leap of faith.
- [63:56]
Joel
Yeah, that it is.
- [63:58]
Matt
I like, buck against emotionally and viscerally. And then like the more I think about it and lean into what it could be, I'm like, okay, no, that could be good. Like I, I need this. Like this could be. Yeah, I think just work is such a central element, such a central focus of our culture and our lives and like, you know my story growing up that it's, it feels like the right thing to do and then you've got to find your way and carve your own way and say no, it's not what it's going to be for me.
- [64:31]
Joel
Yeah. And I do think especially, I mean it's true for nine to five employer employees, but especially for self employed, like it seems to unlock something like people come back because there's, I talk about the book, like the difference in like high performance athletes. If you're 10% faster than everyone else, you win 100% of the races. Like it's really disproportionate. You don't win 10% more races. Like you win all of them. And it's just like those little things are so high leverage. If you come back 20% better, 20% more creative, 20% more motivated, like it can make a hundred percent of the difference.
- [65:19]
Jillian
And so there's just 20% more clarity even to know that you're pursuing the correct thing.
- [65:25]
Joel
Yeah. And sometimes it's just, just stepping out of the dynamic. It's like, I don't know, like if you're like fighting with your spouse and you're in the thick of it, like sometimes just like stepping out and going for a walk and like getting out of it for a second, then you come back and you're like, oh wait, we can actually talk about this now?
- [65:40]
Matt
Like only if you slam the door on your way out though.
- [65:42]
Joel
Yes, 100% loud noises are necessary for.
- [65:47]
Jillian
A dramatic accident, break something.
- [65:52]
Joel
But yeah, I think like such cool things happen. And I'm seeing especially amongst entrepreneurs, a big trend where like a lot of them take a month off every year. Like it's just standard operating procedure now because them being high performance just makes such a big difference.
- [66:09]
Matt
Yeah, I believe it. I'm really super cool. Curious to see how this impacts both of us on an individual level, on a family level and then also on a business level when, when we come back.
- [66:21]
Jillian
But also let's set expectations low. That way we don't come, you don't come back disappointed, man, nothing happened.
- [66:28]
Matt
No, I think more of all those metrics, the thing I'm most excited about is the interpersonal thing. Like literally how Am I gonna change? Yeah. The business. Sure. Yeah.
- [66:38]
Jillian
Which is tough to quantify though.
- [66:39]
Matt
Yeah.
- [66:40]
Jillian
That's what. So I guess that's why I jokingly said, like, oh man, nothing happened. But it's like, it's really tough to.
- [66:45]
Matt
It's hard to gauge.
- [66:46]
Jillian
How do you put that in a spreadsheet? Like, you know, if you're speaking mat language, I'm like, how do I put that into numbers? I can't. But there's something thing that I know to be true that I know, like at a bone deep sort of level. Yeah. And that's. We just need to be more attuned to that kind of change as well.
- [67:03]
Joel
Yeah. It's one of the nice things, doing those weekly check ins in the book. I've got like some questions, like sample questions you can run through. But it can be really helpful for analytical people because you can measure some of those things that are harder to measure. Like, how am I sleeping? How am I well rested? Am I feeling? How much time do I have to like, think new thoughts? Like, how much like mental clarity am I experiencing? And kind of check in with yourself on these things and then you'll see you can map out kind of that progression in something that feels more tangible. Like how. How's my communication with my spouse? Like, how's my sex life with my spouse? Like, is that getting better? Like just all these different things that you can kind of see. Actually we're making, like, stuff is changing and I think mini retirements are mostly life changing because we're changed in the process. Like, we come out different, therefore our life becomes different because we're showing up in a new way.
- [67:59]
Matt
Yeah.
- [68:00]
Jillian
That's so good. All right, step four, I'm gonna tear into the worksheet, make sure that I'm doing those weekly check ins.
- [68:06]
Matt
Jillian, Jillian, you're the best. We really appreciate you.
- [68:10]
Joel
So good to see you. Chat with you.
- [68:12]
Jillian
Oh, I'm sorry. I'm gonna go ahead and hit stop so that we get the full upload. Okay.
- [68:16]
Joel
Oh, yeah, yeah.
- [68:18]
Jillian
Did it occur to you that he charmed you in any way? Yes, it did.
- [68:24]
E
But he was a charming man.
- [68:26]
Jillian
It looks like the ingredients of a really grand spy story. Because this ties together the cold war with the new one.
- [68:33]
Joel
I often ask myself now, did I know the true Jan at all?
- [68:40]
Jillian
Listen to Hot Money, agent of chaos on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.
- [68:47]
Unknown
Are there any pictures of you online? Then you could already be in a massive police database without even knowing it.
- [68:53]
Jillian
Clearview scrapes together images from Facebook, from LinkedIn, from Venmo accounts.
- [68:59]
Unknown
I'm Dexter Thomas, host of Kill Switch, a podcast about how living in the future is affecting us right now.
- [69:04]
Jillian
Police, they are trusting the software with this magical ability to lead them to the right suspect.
- [69:10]
Unknown
In this episode, we dive into how cops are using AI and facial recognition and sometimes getting it wrong and putting innocent people behind bars.
- [69:18]
Jillian
So if your accuser is this algorithm, but you're not even being told that it was used, let alone given any of the details about how it works.
- [69:27]
Unknown
Listen to Kill Switch on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.
- [69:34]
E
OpenAI is a financial abomination, a thing that should not be an aberration, a symbol of rot at the heart of Silicon Valley. And I'm going to tell you why on my show, Better Offline, the rudest show in the tech industry where we're breaking down why OpenAI, along with other AI companies, are dead set on lying to your boss that they can take your job. I'm also going to be talking with the greatest minds in the industry about all the other ways the rich and powerful are ruining the computer. Listen to Better offline on the iHotra radio app, Apple Podcasts. Wherever you happen to get your podcasts.
- [70:03]
Joel
This is an iHeart podcast.