← How to Money
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- [00:00]
Shauna Game
This is an Iheart podcast. Guaranteed human. Run a business and not thinking about podcasting, think again.
- [00:07]
Joel
More Americans listen to podcasts than ad.
- [00:09]
Shauna Game
Supported streaming music from Spotify and Pandora.
- [00:12]
Joel
And as the number one podcaster, iHeart's.
- [00:14]
Shauna Game
Twice as large as the next two combined. Learn how podcasting can help your business.
- [00:17]
Joel
Call 844-844-IHeart. Welcome to how to Money. I'm Joel, and today I'm talking about why being good with money still feels so hard with Shawna Game. All right, so how many of us ever stop to think about how our hormones shape our spending decisions or our confidence with money? It's just something we don't really talk about. But money is emotional, right? It's never just numbers on a screen. And so if you are carrying around old money mistakes, if you're feeling stuck in maybe some of the same patterns that you've had in regards to your finances for years on end, or you're just unsure why you keep second guessing yourself when you're trying to make changes. This episode is for you. Today's guest, Shawna Game. She is both a CFP and a money therapist. She, she helps people understand the deeper forces behind their financial decisions so they can ditch the shame, ease the stress, and build a healthier relationship with money. Shauna, thank you so much for joining me. I'm so glad you're here.
- [01:35]
Shauna Game
Thanks so much for having me. This is my favorite topic to talk about.
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Joel
Lovely. Oh, I love it too. I think it's so fun. The intersection. I was just telling you right before we started, like 401 contribution limits still interesting. Less interesting than some of the topics we're gonna cover today. First question for you is what do you like to splurge on? Like we call it the craft beer equivalent because we like spending a lot of money on good craft beer, but we're still doing the smart stuff with our money, saving for our futures. What's that? Splurge for you?
- [02:05]
Shauna Game
Absolutely anything. Dessert. The sweeter the better. Cookies, ice cream, cupcakes. You got a good piece of pie, a good six layer cake. You're gonna get my money. Even if it's not tasty, there's still gonna be something redeemable from it. That's my theory.
- [02:26]
Joel
I love it. Okay, well, do you have a, do you have an absolute favorite, like last meal sort of dessert? What would you want to cap it off?
- [02:35]
Shauna Game
Well, I have this sort of second talent. I make what I call the best gluten free cupcakes ever. So I, I would say probably My dessert. But if I wasn't splurging to go buy, like, expensive gluten free, you know, flour and all the right butter, the Irish gold butter, I would probably say like a really nice. Have you heard of, like, celebration cake that's like, got sprinkles in it and it's basically like, you know, a fun, like, glorified kids but adult version cake. So it's loaded with sprinkles and you got like your nice, you know, cream cheese frosting in the middle. I would probably have something like that. Like one of those things where the minute you bite into it, like, you can feel the sugar rush happening, that. That would probably be it for me.
- [03:28]
Joel
I was going to ask you if you made your own desserts, so it sounds like you do, because that's at least a way to. Cause when you think about going out to eat, that's one of the. They call it the Bermuda Triangle. Right out at the restaurant, if you get the drink and the app and the dessert, like, your bill's gonna skyrocket. And every time one, I'm usually too stuffed because they put too much on the main course plate anyway to get dessert. But it's also incredibly expensive when you look at them, like $12 for a slice of cake. That's ridiculous. I would rather have the homemades. I think it'd be more palatable to me. But it's not my craft beer equivalent. If it was, I'd probably gladly spend money on it.
- [04:04]
Shauna Game
Yeah, see, I mean, everyone's got thing and I always say, like, have dessert first and then that. That way, like, you don't feel so guilty about, you know, the $12. You're like, I already, like, I already filled myself up. I might as well just, like, get the salad and a glass of water or something like that.
- [04:21]
Joel
I don't know if it. How well it jives with the new food health pyramid, but who cares, you know, like, do you do your thing?
- [04:27]
Shauna Game
It's my version. It's my version and it works. And I'm sticking to it.
- [04:32]
Joel
Since we're talking craft beer equivalent, is there such a thing as a healthy indulgence, financially speaking? And what makes it healthy or not?
- [04:40]
Shauna Game
It's such a good question. And I think it's one that we stumble with so often because we're so used to equating, like, frugality and saving money and minimalism with the way we're supposed to do money, the way we're supposed to do money and think about money. And so I think that Just leads to, like, a sense of rebellion. And I really feel like people just need permission to one, like one exemption. Like, one thing, whether it's your celebration cake or your craft beer, like one thing that you just. You like, you just can't live life without and build that in. And so I think it's different for each person. I think the problem is we get into the, you know, emotional side of money, which I know we're going to talk about, and our emotions trigger us and we go out and we just buy everything, or we buy like the whole bar, craft beer. And that's how we get. We get kind of in trouble. But I think if you find one thing that you just have maybe once a week or once a month or something like that, it just makes life a lot more doable.
- [05:47]
Joel
It's interesting. You said once a week or once a month. I literally saw a poll today that talked about retail therapy and how much money the average American spends buying stuff for emotional reasons. It was pretty ridiculous to see not just how much money was spent, but the average person in a given year does retail therapy. They confess 107 times a year. So that's. Let's say that's almost two to three times a week. They're making some sort of impulse purchase to do some emotional soothing. How prevalent of an issue do you think that is?
- [06:22]
Shauna Game
It's incredibly prevalent. And I think that, you know, we have media, we have social media, we have even TV and news that is constantly throwing, you know, ads at us of buy, buy, buy, buy, buy, buy, buy. And there, There are subtle mess, emotional, kind of related, you know, emotionally, for us, they're meant to be triggers. That's what I. The word I was looking for. And so I think that it's really easy to do this in a very sort of unconscious way. And it's. It really isn't until you kind of pause and look at how you're spending your money through a different lens and through like an emotional filter that I think you can start to pick out, like these 107 right things that we're buying. And if those 107 things are 100, $200 or whatever that might be, like, that is really depleting all of your other goals. And so I think it's just about. It's about finding this balance, right? It's about having things that we want to spend money on that make us feel good, but also bringing this sense of intention to what we are buying so that we're able to think about it from A more rational perspective and less of that, like dopamine hit. I need to, you know, soothe my emotions. I'm feeling something, so I'm going to go buy X. And that's just kind of how we're automatically trained to approach this.
- [07:47]
Joel
Yeah, that survey said something. I forget exactly what the percentage was, but most people regretted at least, at least like half of those knee jerk spending decisions. And I think about that in my life when I look at what's on my shelf and I'm like, how much did I spend on that? Do I feel like I've gotten my money's worth? And when you think about it through that lens, I'm like, what if I could have that money back right now and get rid of this item? So much of the time I would take that trade because there's better things I could think to do with that item. And you don't want to live in that world. But that's at least I think a decent exercise to be like, oh, yeah, I have spent a lot of money in ways that really don't resonate with my greater, deeper goals. Early on in your book, you say, before you can make better outward money decisions, you have to look inward. Can you, can you explain like, what you mean by that?
- [08:36]
Shauna Game
I am a, like a classically trained money expert, a cfp, a trauma of money specialist. And so I've done all this sort of book learning around money. And what I found working with people and just being around humans was that we struggle with money because we're looking for like the 10 steps. We're looking for, how do I do this exact thing? And we keep kind of getting stuck, like I say, on the other side of the bridge, right? We want to get to the, to the other side and like, we can't figure it out. And we keep kind of banging our heads against the wall. And this is normally where people start to have the feeling of, I'm bad at money. You know, this advice doesn't work, et cetera, et cetera. And what I mean by going inside first is really looking at what are your beliefs around money? How do you even feel about money? And why, why do you feel that way? Where did you come from? How do your parents relate to money? What happened in kind of your lineage? And you know, what are your, what are your triggers around money? And a lot of this process is about going internally, right? Noticing, like, oh, every time I open up my bank app, my heart races or, you know, my palms get sweaty. Okay, well, what is that about? Right? And so it's digging into these deeper messages of what is getting in the way. And I really believe that if we taught this about money that it would be way more transformational than, you know, just telling people to, like, cut out lattes, which doesn't work.
- [10:13]
Joel
Right? Yeah, yeah. And so much of that advice makes it feel like we're broken. Right. And. Yeah, well, how come other people can do it and I can't? And one of the things you also talk about in the book is how I'm curious to know what you think about trauma. Do you think we're overusing it? But one of the things that you say, I think it has become this catch word, right? Where it's like, oh, man, that thing last week traumatized me. And you're like, well, there's real trauma and then there's like, I don't know, maybe the thing, the word that you're using, I don't think it means what you think it means. But you also say that money trauma leaves an imprint, which sounds deep. Does that mean that it's. How hard is it to overcome, like, money trauma that we've experienced, it gets.
- [10:53]
Shauna Game
Wired into our nervous system. And you know, our nervous system was set up, you know, way back in like caveman days to, to do good things, right? To keep us away from, like, animals chasing us and all of those sorts of things.
- [11:07]
Joel
But those pesky saber toothed tigers, those.
- [11:10]
Shauna Game
Tigers that were chasing after us, but we still feel that way. Like our nervous system still feels like, oh my gosh, you know, if I paid my bill, you know, a day late, or if I didn't make this investment choice, like, that tiger is still chasing me. And so these things get wired into our nervous system and they could be really small. They could be like, you forgot to pay a bill or your credit score isn't where you want it to be, or maybe you made an investment that went, you know, kind of sideways. Or it could be something big. Maybe you grew up in poverty, right? Maybe you had some sort of financial abuse in a relationship. So it could be small things, it could be big things, but our body doesn't really know the difference. We just know that it didn't feel good and we don't ever want to feel that again. And so it's a very sort of somatic, which is just a fancy word for bodily experience that we feel around money. And it's also why we could say something like, I'm going to be really good this year. Like, I am not going to spend frivolous Money. And then we find ourselves doing that. Right. Or we get in debt and out of debt and in debt and out of debt. It's because our body is just set up to kind of come back to the set point, and we really have to, like, work with that in order to rewire it. It's a difficult process. I'm not going to say, like, you just, oh, this is what's happening, and suddenly you're fixed. Like, this is a lifelong thing. But I think when you start to bring some sort of awareness into what is happening, that's kind of the first starting point.
- [12:49]
Joel
And so awareness is one. And then I'm curious how much is, like, being honest, saying it out loud, because I feel like that's something you do in the book quite a bit. You're pretty honest about the mistakes you've made with money, which I think is just. It's refreshing. But I think there's. There's big power in telling someone else your story or saying it out loud that then it can just kind of declutter some of that inner. Inner turmoil. How. How much do you think that matters?
- [13:15]
Shauna Game
A thousand percent, Joel. Because I think you. You know this too, from. From hosting a podcast where you talk about money all day long, is that it tends to live in kind of exile. Right? Like, so we put those skeletons in the closet. We don't want anyone to know the things that we have not done or the mistakes we've made. So when we don't share those things, we don't talk about them out loud. They perpetuate shame, and we just feel worse and worse. And sometimes we do the opposite of what we want to do because we've wired ourselves to feel shameful. So we. We almost do the thing that we don't want to do because we're like, well, I mean, I already feel shame. I might as well feel more shame. Like, that's a comfortable feeling for me. So I really think if you just sat down with one person and it's gotta be somebody that you trust, you could say maybe some things that feel a little messed up to you, to that person, and that person is not going to judge you, because that's the other really important piece of the equation. But just to be able to say something out loud like, oh, my gosh, I, you know, overdrafted my account, or I make a million dollars a year and I am living paycheck to paycheck, and I feel terrible about it. Like, these things that feel like your worst secrets, they're really important to get out. Because that. That tells your nervous system, like, whoa, okay, I don't have to, like, I don't have to carry this thing anymore, and I don't have to keep doing the same patterns that reinforce this feeling.
- [14:47]
Joel
Yeah, I think you're right. I mean, I think it's that shame cycle. Right. And then. And not. It's. Not that it's comfortable, but it's more comfortable than the discomfort we'd experience from the what ifs. What if I shared it? Like, how would somebody respond to me? And so I think. I think that's good advice, too, to find a purp person. You think that can hold that confession and be kind to you in it. What else do you think causes people to get stuck in their ability to make progress with money? Because I think, like, you're also pointing at something where for most people, especially if they're new to trying to figure out their personal finances, if you were to ask them what they think the main problem is, they would probably tell you they think it's a math problem. But you would say most of the time it's not. It's not numbers, dollars and cents, zeros. That's not ultimately at the crux of why people are having issues. Typically.
- [15:40]
Shauna Game
Yeah. I say it's an emotional wiring issue before it's a math issue, and that usually people are scratching their heads like, I have no idea what she means, but I think the first place is really going back to look at your formative years, and those are between age 0 and 7. Scientifically, this has been proven that these are the most impactful years when it comes to creating your. Your money personality and how you interact with money. And, you know, when I was writing the book, what was crazy for me is I don't have a lot of memories before 7 years old, but I think that that time period. Yeah. Was so impactful, just sort of blew my mind. And so that might. You. You might be listening and you might be like, me, where you're like, I don't really remember anything. Right. Or maybe you do. Maybe there was something big. But what that points to, right, is how we were raised in the importance of how we were raised. And we were also raised with people who probably did not work on their relationship with money, because that was not. That was not a terminology. That was not a thing that. That you did. And they probably held, you know, withheld their own mistakes around money, and maybe they didn't share it. Right. And so these beliefs and. And even this just sort of feeling around money. So If. If money wasn't a thing that was talked about in your household, but maybe there was a feeling. Maybe there was a feeling of fear or maybe of control or maybe security. Right. All of these different feelings we've sort of Learned between ages 0 and a 7, like, oh, that's what money represents and that's what I need to recreate. So then we get in our adulthood years and we, like I said, you know, we're. We're doing these things and we're living life and we're like, I. Why am I not getting ahead? Like, everyone else seems to have it figured out. Which I will also tell you, after working with hundreds of people, there's most. Most everyone does not have anything figured out.
- [17:44]
Joel
It's kind of like assuming the people in charge always know what they're doing. And then you get in to hang out with people like that and you're like, oh, they don't know what they're doing either.
- [17:50]
Shauna Game
You're. Wait a minute. They don't know what they're doing. We're all in trouble.
- [17:53]
Joel
Yeah.
- [17:55]
Shauna Game
Yeah. And I think that's what the really unique thing is, because we tend to think that if we just made X amount of money, whatever that is for you, that all of this stuff would disappear. And I will tell you that I have worked with so many people who reach that X amount of money, and they still feel the same way. So then it becomes about, well, it can't be the number in your bank account. We can't tie that to identity or success or perfection or whatever that might be, because it doesn't work. So then what is it? Right. So that's where this. This deeper looking at your belief system and how you just sort of innately feel about money and why you feel that way becomes super important.
- [18:41]
Joel
You have, in the book, you offer up a suggestion to people to create a money timeline. So let's say, like, when you said that 0 to 7, I have, like, a lot of distinct memories, in particular about how money happened in our family and how it affects me to this day more from, like, the age of, I would say like 9 to 14. But yeah, going back to before 7, I'd have to really, like, sit down and do some thinking. But tell me about the money timeline exercise and how that can maybe help people go back and unearth some stuff.
- [19:15]
Shauna Game
Yeah, I love this. I love exercises, I think, especially when we're talking about emotions, like, sometimes it's hard to conceive. So in the book, I throw out all sorts of different things. But it's as simple as like grabbing a sheet of paper and drawing a line down the middle and you know, putting on top little dash lines and everything that you remember positively about money and below the line, everything that you remember negatively. And these could be feelings, they could be events, they could be things like, you know, paid off my student loan or you know, if you really start thinking about those zero to seven years, it's, it's really thinking back to, okay, like, what did, what did I do as a kid? Like, how did we spend our time? What did we do when we went shopping? And like when I started to think about this, I remembered like, oh, every time I would go shopping with my mom, we would go straight to the clearance aisles. Like every time. And I remember thinking as adult, like, that's crazy because I know we had enough money that we could have bought the regular priced items, but we always went to the like, why did we do that?
- [20:23]
Joel
And then recognizing that to my kids.
- [20:25]
Shauna Game
Right now, recognizing as an adult, I do the same thing and like, why do I, why do I choose to do that? And not that there's a right or a wrong answer to it, but it's having this like, deeper understanding of, okay, so some of these things were imprinted in me long ago. What do they mean and how are they showing up now? And I think when you do this timeline, I want you to start thinking about like, what is truth? And you know, what is fact, what is fiction, right? And a lot of times what we do is we bring the fiction into, into how we operate around money. Like this idea of, oh, I'm bad with money or I've always got to have shame or I don't know how to do things, or you know, looking for like the magic pill, if you will. And so you start to see different patterns that emerge. And if you can be really truthful and honest with yourself and do this exerc, just more of like a history collection, you'll start noticing things like, oh, these sort of interesting patterns keep emerging. Like, why is that? What is that about?
- [21:30]
Joel
Also one of the things you point to, you mentioned somatic, right? And you're talking about how that, that's basically like noticing how your body responds in certain situations and how you talk about how money anxiety can create a bodily response. And a lot of therapists will take talk about that, right? How what's your, what's happening in your body right now, right? As you talk about this or as you think about this. And for a lot of people with money, there Is like if they're in a specific situation that feels uncomfortable, their body will do something. What should we look for in our bodies when we're talking about money? And is it like a lump in the throat? Is it like a tightness in the gut? And then what is that telling us?
- [22:13]
Shauna Game
It could be something different for everybody, but it's the, it's the sort of unease sensation. So it could be, you know, your heart, you start feeling like your heart rate going up a little bit. Maybe there's a little sense of anxiety. Palm sweaty, maybe your shoulders get tight. You know, just sort of a tightening of the body. I had somebody I worked with and she's like, I on. Every time I sit down to like go over my spending, my left foot gets so tight and sore to the fact like when I stand up, I almost kind of hobble a little bit. She's like, do you think that could be related? And I'm like, absolutely. Right. So we, we all carry our attention in different ways. And you know, the, the way to start noticing this is when you interact with money. So it's either you're, you're doing some sort of transaction. Maybe it's even in how you're talking. Maybe you need to have a talk with your part money. Right? Just taking a second and going like just a body check. Okay. Like what feels tight, what feels loose? And if it is tight, why is that? Like, is there a part of this conversation or this transaction, this thing I'm going to do that. Maybe there's a belief around it. Maybe I'm dreading something. Well, why am I dreading that? Right? So it's just, it's like you're trying to just kind of play a game of clue with yourself to figure out why that might be.
- [23:40]
Joel
All right. There's more I want to talk about with you, Shauna, including what about the folks who are doing great and they still feel stressed by their finances or when they think about money? We'll talk about that and more right after this. We live in a fast paced era. It can be hard to keep up with incessant messages, impending deadlines, and looming big decisions. As AI resources are chomping at the bit to help us, it's crucial that we choose wisely. Because every message counts. And sounding generic and rushed, it just doesn't cut it. Grammarly gives you one place to think. Write and finish your work where you already write. It's loaded with agents that help you sound natural and engaging. That's right. Yeah. Use AI to jumpstart and finish your work. I think it's great to get ideas down faster and move from draft to done with less friction. You can use AI chat to brainstorm ideas, outline a solid draft and then refine it with context aware suggestions that fit what you're working on. 90% of professionals say Grammarly has saved them time writing and editing their work. I like how this is AI that works with you. It doesn't work over you. It almost acts as like a co laborer alongside you in a world of generic AI don't sound like everyone else. With Grammarly you never will. Download Grammarly for free@Grammarly.com that's Grammarly.com talking with Shaun again we're talking about trying to be good with money, but the things that hold us back. And Sean, one of the things you say that most of us settle for a crappy relationship with money, but building a healthy money mindset is kind of like building muscle. I don't know much about that, so you're gonna have to tell me what that's like. But part of it is positive self talk, replacing negative thoughts with positive ones. That sounds great, but it also sounds like, sorry, therapist jargon. So tell me what you mean by that. What does it look like then if you, if you're feeling a lot of those negative realities about money and you do kind of have like feel like body tension when you're like, oh, supposed to talk about money with my spouse tonight or I got to work on my budget or I'm trying to think about, you know, what it looks like to make positive changes this year. How do we kind of right the ship?
- [25:52]
Shauna Game
Yeah, I mean it's such a hard thing to like put an exact answer on because it really is going to be different for every person. Which also sounds a little bit like a cop out answer. But you know, what we've been talking about a lot is just having this awareness of what is going on. And the second piece coupled with that awareness is the why piece. And this is the piece that requires some sort of honesty. So I share this story in the book that for probably 10 years, and this is me as money expert doing this, I never looked at an ATM receipt. I hated it. This is when you used to go back, right. And drive. If you're old enough to remember that you used to drive to ATMs because.
- [26:37]
Joel
You didn't want, you didn't want to know your balance.
- [26:38]
Shauna Game
I didn't want to know my balance. Right. And so when it would spit out the receipt, I would just Fold it up and put it in my wallet. And it was because if I looked at those numbers, the way my brain works is I'm really good with numbers with other people. But for me, I get this sense of panic. And in, like, a split second, I can start deducting, like, all the things that I know that are coming out of my bank account and start to feel like, well, I'm going to lose my house. I'm not going to have any money to pay my bills. I'm going to be a failure. Like, it's. It's completely irrational. It doesn't make sense. It's never happened. It probably will never happen, but that doesn't matter, right? My body was sort of wired around money to have this. This kind of reaction. And so what I really had to do were a lot of the exercises I talk about in the book. Like, before I went in and, you know, it spit out receipt, I had to tell myself, like, okay, these are just numbers on a piece of paper. These numbers are not who you are as a person. They're not your identity. There's a way we can have, like, a cool, calm, you know, experience with this. And even if I got nervous, it was just a lot of talking to myself, but also a lot of honesty, like, why do I feel this way? Where is this coming from? And, like, how do I. How do I sort of help myself off this ledge? And that also started with having conversations with people about, God. I've, like, does anyone else have this? Does anyone else, like, freak out when they look at the numbers? And people be like, yeah, I do that, too. Well, why do you think you do that? Well, I think this is why I do it. So. So it was starting to take down some of those shame layers. One of the exercises I do with everybody is something I call financial forgiveness. And there's some scientific evidence, right, of setting a timer on your phone, 10 minutes. I want you to write down every single thing, every single mistake, every single thing you think you should have, would have, could have around money, like, everything. I just want you to get it out on paper, step away for 24 hours, come back, read it over, right? And tell yourself, like, I'm letting go of these things. I want you to burn it, shred it, tear it up, whatever doesn't automatically erase those things, right? But it starts to tell your body and your nervous system, like, we can have a reset point. We don't have to have the same experience around money that we've been wired to have before. So, I mean, your Question. Like, we could do a whole three hour. Like, you know, we could do a whole three hour exercise on it. But I. I say it's always, you know, we talk about micro goals a lot when we talk about money. It's the same sort of, like, micro steps that we're doing with this. It's just a little bit, ooh, okay, I feel this. Like, why is that happening? Oh, what if I kind of came at it from a different direction or tried something different? Okay, let me try that. Ooh, that didn't work. Okay, let me try it this way. So it's having this sense of accountability with the sole purpose of, like, I don't want to spend my whole life feeling crappy around money, feeling anxious around money, or feeling triggered around money.
- [29:45]
Joel
Well, that exercise right there too, seems to me part of the power is it's like, these are past actions that I've performed, but almost like the act of getting them out, written down on paper, and then eradicating them, it's like, but that's not who I am. Like, you're divorcing the action from the person. And I think it's really important because it's really easy to leave those inside and be like, that is who I am. That is part of my. And you're kind of trying to, I guess, divorce in some ways, identity from, like, things you've done.
- [30:17]
Shauna Game
Yeah, because I feel like there's such a correlation between what you do, how much you make, how much is in your bank account. Right. How much is in your retirement account, and who you are as a person. I feel like we've gotten into this place and it's just getting amplified. It's not. It's not getting reduced. And so you have a lot of people who are walking around feeling really crappy about themselves because of a certain number. And not that there isn't maybe some legitimacy to that, but my gosh, like, imagine if we had some sort of freedom from that. I don't know. It just feels like a better way to do this thing.
- [30:58]
Joel
Yeah, I know I'm probably not alone in this, but I might be an outlier. There might be some other how to Money listeners that struggle with this as well, that I found myself totally stressed out about money. Even when I'm on the right track, when I am making progress, my net worth is going up. I've done the things I said I wanted to do, but still I'm stressed. Right. Like, if I were to log in and look at the numbers in the Fidelity brokerage account it wouldn't soothe that sort of underlying reality. Like, I haven't done enough. Like what, what's going on under the surface from somebody who's like a, like a money overachiever in some ways, someone who is doing the right stuff but still feels like they can't get peace.
- [31:45]
Shauna Game
I think what you're talking about, Joel, so many people can resonate with. So I think thanks so much for sharing that because that I see that a lot and I think there's a couple of things that are going on. One is we live in an incredibly scarcity driven society. So even if, like we're watching commercials and they're talking about, you know, retirement plans or something like that, there's some sort of message underneath that you're, you're not far enough along, right? And so even if you know mathematically you are, that doesn't like you're saying do anything for the nervous system interaction with that messaging. So I think that's one thing. Another thing I think is that we're also taught that this idea of enough is something that is always far out, right? Like we're never going to reach this place of enoughness. And so what I like to welcome people to do is just to think about like, what does enough really look like in your life and what elements of that are you already living, right? What elements, like, can we tell your nervous system? Like, hey, you're doing good, like you're doing okay. Let's see if we can substitute a different feeling word in and just help, you know, have you say it a bunch of times every day. See what that does to your, to your nervous system and the pieces that you feel like you're still reaching towards. Like, great. What do we need to do mathematically but also emotionally to help you feel like you're stepping towards that? So I think we, we tend to think of everything external when it comes to money, right? And instead of bringing some of that internal, really having that a vision for what we want, why we want it, what is the feeling or the emotion underneath it and what parts of it do we already have, like that we can already claim to tell our bodies, like, hey, it's okay, like we're, we're actually doing really good. We can interact by looking at our retirement account balance and the numbers reflected back to us. A, don't have to deflate us or you know, enhance our ego, but B, we can look at it for this sense of like, okay, this is a good thing, like I feel good about money or about where I am. Today, Right? And so I think there's just this. This kind of combination of pairing the feelings and thinking about what I'm feeling. Is that. Is that true? Is that not. Can I. Can I insert a different word? That is actually the truth about what's going on and really just sitting and owning that.
- [34:26]
Joel
We talk about the puritan work ethic, but I think there's like a puritan frugality ethic as well. And at least for some people, right. It really sets in. And maybe it's the stories you heard about your grandma during the Great Depression and how she reused everything and didn't buy anything that wasn't completely necessary. And in some ways, those stories can be inspiring because you're like, that's amazing that people can deal with that and get through it. But then that can impact us, I think. And even to the point of feeling guilty about spending money on things that we have budgeted for that we have called out as being good and. And something that we legitimately care about, even when we can totally afford it, right? It's not going on a credit card that we can't pay off at the end of the month. How do we overcome that guilt about spending in ways that move the needle for us?
- [35:17]
Shauna Game
I think this goes back to what we were. What we were talking about in the beginning, which is giving yourself some permission to incorporate some of those expenses that you feel really good about, right? Like, if your thing is craft beer is your. If your thing is, like, going out to hang with your friends every week. If your thing is getting a massage once a month, it's figuring out how to incorporate that into your spending. And the second piece of that is saying, like, hey, this is part. Like, this is part of my fixed expense, right? This is part of what makes me. Me incorporating that expense in, but then also doing a really good comb through of, like, what can I cancel? What can I pause? What can I swap? Right? What can I do in here? I always tell everyone, like, you can find money in your bank account. I can find money in anybody's bank account. It's just about really looking at the expenses and saying, like, what do I care about? And what do I actually not really care about that I just do for that kind of dopamine hit around spending. And I think when you start to do this, it might feel a little scary at first, but it starts to become really powerful. Like, you start to feel like you have a greater sense of control over where your money's going. And just that that act, I think, helps you create a pause between, I'm just gonna go out and spend all my money. And you know what? Maybe there's, like, one thing I'm gonna go buy today, and, like, that's gonna give me the dopamine hit, and I'm gonna feel good. And the other things, like, I don't need those. Right?
- [36:52]
Joel
Yeah.
- [36:52]
Shauna Game
So I think it's. It's this process of giving yourself permission to spend money on things that you really enjoy, but also coming at it with some sort of intention. Like, it can't be everything, but it can be certain things. And I think when we do this, like, there's less of that rebellion that we feel around spending our money.
- [37:14]
Joel
I'm curious. There was a post in the how to Money Facebook group recently about financial infidelity, and I didn't. I haven't actually. I don't know if you've addressed this or if you address this in the book. If you do. I don't remember it, but how. This feels like it's becoming more common, right. Where in a partnership, one person has debt that the other partner doesn't know about, or they're even racking it up, racking up credit card debt behind their back. How. How do you address stuff like that when it comes to light in a relationship? That sounds like a really tough thing to move past.
- [37:49]
Shauna Game
Yeah, it's a really tough thing. It's. It's very common. And this is where I say, like, you really have to be cognizant of, you know, when there is deep financial abuse. These are the times, like, when you go to a therapist. These are the times where maybe you're looking at divorce or some sort of expert to come in and help you, because, you know, when we. When we cross over into, like, real infidelity, there's usually so much going on under the surface that is deeper than what we can kind of work together as partners. So, you know, I want to just kind of say that, but I feel like we're. Most of us are programmed because we already feel some level of shame and guilt. Even if we're doing well, really well with money, we feel some level of shame and guilt around money. So that makes us not want to talk to our partner about money. Right. And they're feeling the same thing with different experiences on their end. And so that in itself creates this sense of, like, well, I'm gonna go buy things and not tell you about them specifically. We're together, and we have split finances, and if we just don't talk about them, like, we avoid any of that conflict. Yeah, but that often creates more conflict and usually worse conflict. And so, you know, it's a gentle, gentle process. But I feel like if you're in this situation and you want to talk to your partner, you have to come at it a different way. You can't come at it with more shame, with more guilt. You have to come at it from a curiosity perspective, like ask lots of questions. Why do you make the choices that you do? You know, why is this important to you? Why do you, why do you do that? Tell me about that. Tell me more about how you really feel about money. Right. It's having this sense of curiosity that helps lower the, you know, sort of pent up emotions that you're both going to feel around money. So that you can try to get to kind of the. But the bottom of the onion. Right. And figure out what is actually really going on. Because it usually is something related to self worth, identity. There's, there's some larger piece in there that is the foundation.
- [40:05]
Joel
It's because it's understandable that you'd be angry, that you'd be hurt. But coming at it with those emotions at the forefront is for the offending partner, it's like going to drive them deeper into some of those spaces that makes it harder for them to be honest. Right. Or, or to move, to be able to move forward from some of those struggles that they face. Yeah.
- [40:29]
Shauna Game
It's such a delicate place and it's really easy to come into these conversations like super loaded because you have your own story and your own belief system around money. And I feel like, you know, if, if you can come from this place of curiosity, just really trying to understand the other person, it is so helpful in, in not only calming the waters but also helping them get to the bottom of why am I doing certain behaviors around money? And you know, what is the root of that? How do I, how do I figure myself around that? But yeah, it's, I mean it in relationships, it's probably the most intense experience around money.
- [41:14]
Joel
Yeah, I would imagine, yeah, that's fortunately something I've not had to, had to deal with. But like I see, I've seen it happen for other people and I see the pain it can cause and I see how just an improper response, like a non emotionally regulated response just like makes everything worse. And yeah, you're on the same team ultimately, even though one teammate, you know, did something that harms both of you, like you have to address it as a team. I'm curious too. We're still at the point in the year where people who've set goals for 20, 26 for their finances, even if they're not off to a great start, man, they still got time to turn it around and hit those goals. What's typically in the way of people reaching the lofty money goals they've set for themselves? I'm curious. How do you think about setting money goals in general? Is that a beneficial way to approach your finances?
- [42:11]
Shauna Game
It depends. I like to think about first, like, what's the feeling I want to have around money this year? So if it's ease, okay, what do I need to do to bring in more ease? What does that look like practically? What does it look like? You know, monthly, weekly, daily? And can I break those things down into little micro steps that I can achieve so I can cross things off and my brain can go, look, you're doing it. And my nervous system can say, look, we don't have to be so scared around money. Like, we're figuring this thing out. Even if we make a mistake, like, that's okay. We're human, right? So I like to approach it with emotion first. Then we go to the numbers, the actual practical pieces. If you're someone who's like, I've got, you know, $10,000 of debt I've got to pay off this year. If you frame it like that to your nervous system and your body, you will inevitably probably run up against some brick walls, right? So break it down. What is like, I gotta pay off a hundred dollars this month? Like, okay, that's achievable, right? What do I need to do to reach that? How do I break that down? And so getting to a place where also your, your nervous system is on board with these particular goals is really important. And I'm, I'm a fan of, like, let's pick, Pick one, two or three goals for the year. Like, when we start getting into like 10 or 20, like, that is just. It's just mass overload for almost, you know, any brain. Like, pick a couple that, that you can achieve, and if you hit them early, great. Pick three more and, and, you know, rotate through that system. But I think that, you know, like, we're sort of trained with New Year's resolutions, right? That we create all of these things, and then they just feel like, you know, at the end of January, it's like, oh, we haven't done any of these things. Like, the whole year is a failure. So I don't want you to, like, get into that place, you know, Maybe every month is a different emotion. Maybe this month's like, you know, I just want to feel happy about where I'm at. Great. How do I. How do I make that happen on a daily basis? And then next month is a different emotion. So, you know, I think when you can get your nervous system on board with what you're trying to achieve, you'll. You'll get a lot further than where you have been in the past.
- [44:33]
Joel
So often it feels like we're trying, like, they're at odds, right? Like, the. The goal that we have and then. But. But our. The way we feel about that are. So they're in complete tension. And so, like, we're trying to run against our own internal reality in. In our attempt to do. Do well with money. And you're like, like, you. You want both of those horses pulling in the same direction, right?
- [44:57]
Shauna Game
You want to pull in the same direction, but you also want to give yourself permission to. To mess this up, right? You want to give yourself, like, 20, 30, maybe even 40% permission to, like, get it wrong.
- [45:09]
Joel
Yeah.
- [45:10]
Shauna Game
And. And that's the other thing I think that we, when we feel about money is like, we have to do all the things, and we have to do them all the right way, and that's how we get. Get, you know, back into the shame spot. So, hey, you messed something up, like, ah, you forgot to calculate something, like, it's okay, the world's not going to explode. Let's just do it differently next time. And so telling yourself, like, it's okay, this is not a perfect science is also, I think, a really important piece here too.
- [45:39]
Joel
Ooh, I've actually got more I want to talk about with you on the couples and money front and how to get on the same page when you have different relationships to money based on how you grew up. We'll talk about that with Shauna right after this. Talking with Shawna game, talking about being good with money, getting good with money, and how so much of that comes from internal work that we need to do. And Sean, we talked about financial infidelity, but I'm also curious just in relationships in general, most like, we as a couple, right? We. Even if we feel like we came from somewhat similar backgrounds, we have similar values, we still have different, like, histories with money that 0 to 7 or 0 to 10 or whatever. Like, we just had different experiences and those that history informs how we think about money now. And we're bringing that into a relationship. It's not something we deal with just. Just on our own. So how would you, how do you help couples think about like getting on the same page when you know they have completely different realities in it with how they view money?
- [46:50]
Shauna Game
Again, this is like another three hour conversation. You know, the first thing is really to have an open conversation about this may sound so super simple, but there is so much depth about, hey, how do you each feel about money and why? Right? Tell me all about that. Like, tell me the story of, of money, of you with money. And I find that when I approach it this way with couples, people love to talk about themselves. So they get really excited about like, oh, well then this happened with money and this happened. It's just a whole different approach than like, hey, we're gonna sit down at first and we're gonna talk about numbers. That's usually like the last thing that we do. And when I start to notice a certain theme or patterning in how somebody is talking, I'm like, okay, there's a deep like shame pattern or guilt pattern here. Then we start to like pick it apart. Like, how do we get to a different piece of the equation, you know, from guilt? Right. Maybe somebody feels terrible about, about spending money on their kids or on things and like they're just having a panic attack almost every time they're spending money. Like, okay, how do we reverse engineer that? How do we give you like a set amount of money every month that is like, you're no guilt, no shame. Little bucket. How do we create that? Okay, you've got shame over here, so how do we create something for you? So we start to kind of like mush the numbers in the system together. Once we start to really uncover these patterns of what's really happening when each person interacts with money. And then it's about coming to the table with like, okay, we've got two people. You each are going to have your strengths. How do we play to those strengths and cover kind of the backside for the weaknesses? And what you'll usually find in a relationship is someone's really strong at one thing that the other person is not so strong at. And so it's about, woo, look at that. Like, you're great at this and this person isn't as great as that. Great, let's put these together. So we start to kind of build that house.
- [48:50]
Joel
How often do you think, like, some of that headbutting is just from a lack of understanding and a lot, like a lack of actually ever having had that conversation? A lot. Yeah, yeah. It's not like I'm purposely trying to misunderstand you or it's a truly, like, I didn't know that about you. Like, I had no idea that you had this money history or that your childhood was fraught in this way and that it influences why you do things now and that there's more grace then in that relationship because they understand the.
- [49:18]
Shauna Game
Why a thousand percent. And we talk about. I'm sure you talk about these two having a money date with your partner. Right, where you sit down and kind of go over things. Things bring the emotional component in that have the, the capacity to say, oh, you know, when we went out to dinner the other week, like, and the bill came, I started to feel really nervous. Like, not that we couldn't pay the bill, but oh my gosh, started thinking about what credit card. And then, oh, we got credit card back. Like, walk that through with your partner in a way where you are just telling the story of what you felt. It changes the tone, it changes the, the whole interaction that you have with your partner because you're able to express something that you normally would have just buried. And maybe it came out as defensiveness or anger or some other emotion that was not helpful in, in the partnership. Because the whole reason you're with your partner. Right. Is to create like a hopefully long lasting good exchange. And part of that is just really understanding each other. And at the depth of that are these stories.
- [50:20]
Joel
Yeah. Okay, Few last questions. We're gonna make them super short. I'm curious. Let's get straight to the point. If you could ban one piece of personal finance advice from the Internet, what would it be?
- [50:29]
Shauna Game
Budgeting solves everything.
- [50:32]
Joel
Oh, you don't have that tattooed somewhere on you?
- [50:35]
Shauna Game
I can, but I can't show you where. No, just kidding.
- [50:39]
Joel
What's a sign that someone is actually winning with money? They're doing well even if their net worth isn't impressive.
- [50:46]
Shauna Game
That's a tough question. I think that they generally just have this sense of ease and intention around money.
- [50:55]
Joel
So it's just. It doesn't frazzle them.
- [50:57]
Shauna Game
Doesn't frazzle them. Like, they can interact with money and not get, you know, sort of a heightened sense of fear or panic or really any emotion. It just becomes almost neutralized for them.
- [51:10]
Joel
What's a money rule that you've broken and you feel great about it?
- [51:15]
Shauna Game
Never be in credit card debt. I've broken it many times for many good reasons and many not so good reasons. And I have just learned, like, look, if I. Again, I'm going to use this word neutralize. If I can neutralize the experience around it, then it takes away any guilt shame around it.
- [51:34]
Joel
Okay. All right, Shauna Game. This has been such a lovely conversation. Where can how to money listeners find out about you and your book that came out last year?
- [51:43]
Shauna Game
You can find unraveling your relationship with money everywhere books are sold and you can head to my website, heyshanna.com I've got lots of great resources over there to help you on this journey.
- [51:54]
Joel
Awesome, Shauna, thanks so much.
- [51:56]
Shauna Game
Thank you.
- [51:57]
Joel
Ooh, that was such a good combo with Shawna Game. I just love talking to money therapists because they have such insight about the ways that we get stuck. And if you're listening to this, I'm guessing, I'm guessing I'm not the only one. We've all felt stuck at some point. Felt like we were spinning our wheels. And it wasn't always because our paychecks were too small. It was because, yeah, there was something going on inside that we were having a hard time addressing. And it's interesting how even as you make progress emotionally with money and as you make progress financially, like growing your net worth, growing your nest egg, having more money in savings, that can help, right? That can help soothe and ease your mind, ease your worries. Because you look at the number on the page and you're like, ha, alright, I'm doing good. But even still, it doesn't guarantee that you move past all those feelings. And there's often internal work that needs to be done. And we talked about that in this conversation. It makes me think, to my shame, I'll share this story real quick. That my wife had bought a $30 reading light for my son. And man, when I bought reading lights for my daughters, they. I remember doing the research and found them on wirecutter and found the cheapest ones that were really good. And they were, I don't remember, they were like $10. And so when she said she spent $30 on a reading light, I'm like, it just for some reason just kind of like, hit me weird. And I remember having to talk to her and be like, oh, man, we could have just gotten that so much cheaper. And I know it's weird because the $30 is not going to break the bank. And I just had to. We ended up in that conversation going back to like, why am I feeling this way? Why is this purchase, like, making me feel so bummed out? And the truth is, it does. It came from. Comes from stuff that I've gone through growing up. Ways that I think about money that they don't necessarily they're not because of facts on the ground, but it's because of my nervous system and ways I've experienced money growing up. And that's really helpful right to, in the middle of the moment, have one, a spouse who's patient to walk through that and discuss it with you when it feels like you're just being ridiculous, because I was right. But it was more than that. And so I think for all of us, even people who are, like, have made a lot of progress, feel like they're doing great, there's still, like, just internal work that can be done to help identify in moments like that where we might be tempted to say, oh, that's. That's too much money. That's too expensive. We can't afford that. Right. If you find yourself saying things like that, there's probably something underlying that needs to be addressed with how you're feeling about money. And that's so much what I love about what Shauna said in this conversation, too. She's like, a good question to ask yourself is, what's the feeling I want to have around money this year? And I think that's awesome. Like, it's not just the money progress, because if your feelings are not around your finances are not improving that just as your net worth is, then, I don't know, maybe you're only hitting one side of it. So I love that question. It's a really good one. I'm going to start asking myself that question more often. Another question she said that you should ask, what elements of enough are you already living? Man, it's so easy to think about the progress I'm going to make when I hit that number, when I reach that goal, that's how I'm going to feel. The truth is, if you don't enjoy the journey and if you don't realize the ways in which you already have more than you need in the here and now, it's going to be. It's going to be really hard to come to grips with that down the road. So let's kind of along this money journey, be saying, like, in what ways am I already crushing it? In which ways do I already have enough? So good wisdom from Shana. Thanks as always for listening. We'll have a fresh Friday Flight episode coming up for you on Friday. Until next time, Best Friend Out.
- [56:19]
Shauna Game
This is an Iheart podcast. Guaranteed human.