How To Ditch Your Distractions Once and For All

Summary

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How To Ditch Your Distractions Once and For All

Podcast: How To! with Mike Pesca (Peach Fish Projects)
Original Host of this Episode: David Epstein
Guest Expert: Nir Eyal, author of Indistractable
Listener: Helena, a lawyer and mother
Date: June 9, 2026 (original episode from 2021)

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Episode Overview

This episode tackles the ever-present struggle with distraction—why even the most motivated people fail to finish their personal projects, despite excelling under deadlines at work. Host David Epstein invites listener Helena to share her challenges finishing meaningful personal tasks, while productivity and time-management expert Nir Eyal offers insights and practical techniques to break the cycle of distraction and procrastination. The discussion dives into the roots of distraction, the difference between traction and distraction, the central role of internal triggers, and actionable steps for reclaiming attention and making lasting progress on what matters most.

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Key Points & Discussion Highlights

1. Helena’s Distraction Dilemma (01:43–05:10)

• Helena: Highly productive at work (a lawyer, mother), but struggles to finish personal projects—like a cookbook with her mom, changing banks, or a photo album for her young son.
• Emotional stakes: Her father’s passing left her wishing she’d preserved more memories, deepening her desire to leave a legacy for her son.

"[I] kind of obsess about what my kid's gonna say about me when I'm not around anymore. You know, like, oh, my mom, she had a lot of great ideas, but she never really made any of them happen." – Helena (03:35)

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2. The True Nature of Distraction (06:03–13:17)

• Nir Eyal relates his own battles with distraction—including struggling for five years to write a book about distraction.
• Historical roots: Distraction is not new—Plato called it akrasia.
• Attempted fixes: Turning off notifications and using old tech didn’t work; distractions persist if root causes aren’t addressed.

“If you are looking for distraction and you blame it on the things outside of yourself without thinking about what is prompting me to distraction, you will always get distracted by one thing or another.” – Nir Eyal (01:18)

The "Traction vs. Distraction" Concept (11:37–12:15)

• Traction: Actions that pull you towards your goals and values.
• Distraction: Actions that pull you away from your intentions.
• It's not what you do, it's whether you do it with intent.

“The time you plan to waste is not wasted time.” – Nir Eyal quoting Dorothy Parker (12:36)

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3. Internal vs. External Triggers (13:24–14:24)

• External triggers: Notifications, interruptions—10% of distractions.
• Internal triggers: Emotional discomfort (boredom, anxiety, stress)—drives 90% of distractions.
• Core principle: “Time management is pain management.” (14:25)
• Many distractions are coping mechanisms for fear of failure or emotional discomfort.

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4. The Trap of Too Many Options and Perfectionism (15:10–16:27)

• Helena gets stuck seeking the perfect option or overwhelmed by choices, leading to avoidance and project stagnation.
• There’s a psychological study (Timothy Wilson): people preferred giving themselves a mild electric shock over being alone with their thoughts—boredom is profoundly uncomfortable.

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5. Systematic Approaches to Focus (17:11–21:08)

The “Revenge Procrastination” Phenomenon (17:11–17:38)

• Staying up late to reclaim a sense of control is a common form of self-sabotage.

Making It Practical: Time Boxing Your Values (17:53–21:08)

• Turn values into time: Use a calendar to block out time for important personal projects.
• Success is not output (finished product) but input: “Did I do what I said, for as long as I said, without distraction?”
• Time-boxing combats to-do list overwhelm, which erodes your sense of personal integrity.

“Running your life on a to do list is one of the worst things you can do for your personal productivity…” – Nir Eyal (18:49)

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6. Balancing Multiple Life Domains (23:11–25:03)

• Three domains: You (self-care), relationships, work—each deserves scheduled, distraction-free time.
• Adults neglect self-care (proper rest, joy) by failing to put themselves on their own calendar.

“You are at the center of these three life domains…whatever’s important to you, is that time on your calendar?” – Nir Eyal (24:00)

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7. Tackling Big Ambitions: Writing a Book (25:23–26:25)

• Helena expresses a desire to write a book but considers the goal almost “ridiculous.”
• Both guests agree writing a book is hard—the hardest part is overcoming the urge to avoid discomfort.

“The number one reason we don’t do something is because we don’t feel like it… What are those things? They are internal triggers.” – Nir Eyal (25:54)

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8. Tools & Tactics for Managing Distraction

10-Minute Rule (26:43–28:20)

• Don’t forbid distractions outright. Allow yourself to indulge, but “not yet”—wait 10 minutes, during which you either do the intended task or “surf the urge.”
• Most urges pass within those 10 minutes, building self-control muscles over time.

“If we can ride those sensations like a surfer on a surfboard...by the time that timer goes off…we no longer feel that urge.” – Nir Eyal (27:48)

Visual & App-based Timers (28:20–28:59)

• David uses a “time timer” clock with a disappearing disk.
• Nir uses the “Forest” app, which plants a virtual tree that dies if you check your phone.

Make a Pact / Precommitment Devices (28:59–31:03)

• Add serious stakes: bet money, risk embarrassment, or create a disincentive if you don’t follow through.
• Example: Nir bet $10k on finishing his manuscript; another writer let her children cut her hair if she didn’t stick to her goal.
• Stakes must “hurt” or be truly undesirable to motivate.

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9. Reframing Your Identity and Choosing Priorities (31:03–34:17)

• Regularly re-evaluate if each project is worth pursuing—sometimes it’s okay to let go.
• Time is finite. “Either you will schedule your time or your time will be scheduled for you.” (32:12)
• Prioritizing yourself is essential to being present for others.

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10. Listener Takeaways and Action Plan (34:38)

• Helena update: She implemented the time-boxing technique (“setting a time limit”) and scheduled focused sessions on her photo book—small wins count as advance.

“Even if you don’t actually finish the thing, you still treat it as advancing that project because you basically moved it forward. And that’s the win for the day sometimes.” – Helena (34:38)

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Notable Quotes & Timestamps

• “The time you plan to waste is not wasted time.” – Nir Eyal quoting Dorothy Parker (12:36)
• “Time management is pain management.” – Nir Eyal (14:25)
• “Running your life on a to do list is one of the worst things you can do for your personal productivity…” – Nir Eyal (18:49)
• “Either you will schedule your time or your time will be scheduled for you.” – Nir Eyal (32:12)
• “Nothing’s going to change unless you do… You have these skills like you’re cranking it at work. You can do this.” – Nir Eyal (33:56)

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Actionable Steps (A Summary Checklist)

1. Understand distraction: Traction vs. distraction—do things with intent.
2. Identify your triggers: Note internal (emotions) vs. external (notifications) triggers.
3. Address internal discomfort: Accept that pain/discomfort is the root of most distraction.
4. Schedule, don’t just list: Use calendars/time-boxing instead of to-do lists.
5. Measure input, not output: Success means working (without distraction) for the planned amount of time.
6. Apply the 10-minute rule: Delay distractions by 10 minutes—urge often passes.
7. Make high-stakes pacts: If needed, add real consequences to break through inertia.
8. Reassess priorities: Only pursue projects that truly align with your values.

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Memorable Moments

• Helena’s vulnerable realization about legacy and unfinished projects (04:03)
• The electric shock study (16:27): people prefer pain over boredom.
• Nir’s $10,000 manuscript bet and the story of the haircut pact (29:11–30:49)
• Honest discussion about the difficulty of writing a book (25:45–25:54)

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Useful Timestamps

• [01:43] – Helena’s challenges and motivation
• [06:03] – Eyal’s background and personal struggle with distraction
• [11:37] – The traction/distraction framework
• [13:24] – Internal vs. external triggers explained
• [17:53] – Time-boxing and turning values into time
• [18:49] – Pitfalls of to-do lists
• [23:11] – Balancing “triage,” parenthood, priorities
• [26:43] – The 10-minute rule
• [28:59] – Precommitment pacts, real-stakes motivation
• [31:03] – The hard choice: which dreams truly matter
• [34:38] – Helena’s update & what worked for her

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This episode is an engaging, practical, and empathetic exploration of why we get distracted and how to get back on track—not just by willpower or tech tweaks, but by understanding the emotional roots of avoidance and taking concrete steps to reclaim your time, focus, and sense of accomplishment.

Transcript

[Nir Eyal]

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[David Epstein]

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[Nir Eyal]

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[David Epstein]

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[David Epstein]

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[Nir Eyal]

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[Helena]

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[Podcast Host / Announcer]

See Terms Hi, it's Mike. The current host of how to a host emeritus if you will, was David Epstein. And back in 2021, he hosted this episode about avoiding distraction. I can. David's a very focused guy, expert at that. In fact, he'll be joining the current iteration of how to as one of our experts pretty soon. But now revel in the glory that was how to of days past. How to avoid those distractions from 2021.

[Nir Eyal]

Most people say, well, give me the tips and tricks, give me the life hacks, you know, tell me the settings on my phone that I can use to make it stop distracting me. And that actually that advice doesn't last for very long. If you are looking for distraction and you blame it on the things outside of yourself without thinking about what is prompting me to distraction, you will always get distracted by one thing or another.

[David Epstein]

Welcome to how to. I'm science writer David Epstein. Most of us know how frustrating it is to start something that's important to you and then abandon it, maybe get bored with it. Or maybe move it to the back burner and eventually just falls off the stove. Forgotten forever. Or maybe you do come back to it from time to time, but you never actually finish it. I'm looking at you. Spanish Language Lessons Our listener this week has one too many things in the project graveyard.

[Helena]

My name is Helena. I live in Cleveland Heights, Ohio. I'm a mom and for work. I'm a lawyer and I've spent probably the last decade plus being really distracted by various things.

[David Epstein]

Let's Just start easy. Can you tell us why specifically you reached out to us?

[Helena]

Sure. So I think it was 5am trying to just get some things done before my son woke up and was kind of looking out the window and thinking about, like, one more sort of project I had started and not finished. In this case, a little lavender garden. And the plants had been out there in the backyard so long that they had actually grown through the pots and were growing into the ground.

[David Epstein]

The thing is, Helena doesn't have this problem at work. When there's a hard deadline, she meets it. But when it comes to personal projects, she finds herself constantly distracted.

[Helena]

Like a cookbook I wanted to make with my mom that sort of got started and kind of went by the wayside. It kind of varies from things I really, really, really should do, like finding a new bank to. I mean, an ongoing thing is just like a. Like a family photo album, which I have never gotten around to. And my son is 4. I am embarrassed to say that, but it's true. I don't want to, like, live what I would consider an unfinished life. In some ways, I kind of obsess about what my kid's gonna say about me when I'm not around anymore. You know, like, oh, my mom, she had a lot of great ideas, but she never really made any of them happen.

[David Epstein]

For Helena, finishing these personal projects means more to her than you might think.

[Helena]

I'm trying not to get emotional here, but

[David Epstein]

it's okay. Take your time.

[Helena]

My dad passed away, gosh, like, six years ago now. And, like, there are a lot of questions that I feel like I should have asked, like, while I had the chance, and, like, I'm not gonna get that chance. So I just want, you know, to be able to answer that question, those questions for my son, or at least, you know, I want him to know who I am. Mm.

[David Epstein]

And so these. These projects have. It sounds like a very deep, you know, personal resonance in leaving behind what he can know you from. I mean, that's. That's kind of a beautiful thought. So it is more than just your being annoyed at yourself with, you know, about not. Not finishing your lavender garden. And I'm sorry about your father.

[Helena]

Thank you.

[David Epstein]

And what is it that you end up doing instead of. Of doing those projects when you're thinking about them? I mean, do you. Do you get distracted by other things?

[Helena]

Distraction is a really big part of it initially, like, thinking about this. A lot of it is time. There's 24 hours in a day. And, you know, I have a small child to take care of and I work full time and distraction is a big thing I think in terms of like what you're paying attention to and it sometimes it feels like a game of Whack a Mole

[David Epstein]

on today's episode, how to win that game of Whack a mole or at least turn it off to focus on what really deserves your attention. This is the first in a two part series on time, how to manage it and make the most of it. We'll hear from time management expert Nir Eyal, who's done a ton of research, including on himself.

[Nir Eyal]

I want you to know first and foremost that we are cut from the same cloth that I wrote my book. Indistractable. Not because I had the answer, but because I was desperate for the answer.

[David Epstein]

Don't get distracted. We'll be right back.

[Podcast Host / Announcer]

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[Nir Eyal]

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[David Epstein]

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[Nir Eyal]

is our ability to run the business as essentially non technical people. We're able to admin everything on the back end, front end and sell things online easily. If Shopify were a bike accessory, I think it would actually be the bicycle. It's the thing that you do the thing on.

[David Epstein]

We run the business on Shopify.

[Nir Eyal]

Start your free trial on shopify.com if

[Podcast Host / Announcer]

you're looking for another podcast that brings therapy resources to your earbuds, then check out the self work podcast. Ten years ago, Dr. Margaret Rutherford decided to extend the walls of her psychology practice as far as they could go, and the Self Work Podcast was born. Each week, Dr. Margaret dives into an issue in mental health that she's personally researched, adding in her own Twitter two bits from over 30 years of experience. And you'll also hear the interviews with creative and informative guests who bring their own experience to the table. Her warm Southern drawl soothes and comforts she's about as down to earth as they come. Rated by many as the best depression podcast out there, Self Work stresses what you can do about it. So if you're seeking ideas and actions to move yourself forward, Self Work is for you. Find it on your favorite podcast app and tell them how to Sent you

[David Epstein]

When Nir Eyal set out to understand why he and everyone got sucked into time warping distractions, his attention was just as fractured as Helena's, if not worse.

[Nir Eyal]

I was pretty much the most distracted person you'd ever met. I was checking my phone instead of being with my daughter. I mean, you're a lawyer who's killing it at work, and you follow through in the workplace. I didn't even do that. It took me five years to write my book about distraction. Guess why? Because I kept getting distracted. It's embarrassing,

[David Epstein]

Nier says. He did all the obvious stuff. He turned off the push notifications on his phone. But none of that worked. You know, it doesn't help. We're living in what's been dubbed the age of distraction. Parents are stressing about their kids having too much screen time, while the parents themselves are rarely putting down their own phones. Just infinitely scrolling social media, spending hours binging Netflix. Speaking of Netflix, comedian Bo Burnham put it really well in his recent special Inside welcome to the Internet.

[Nir Eyal]

Have a look around. Anything that brain of yours can think of can be found. We've got mountains of content, some better, some worse. If none of it's of interest to you, you'd be the first welcome to the Internet.

[David Epstein]

Wait, anyway, where were we? Oh, right. The age of distraction. And yet, Nier says, this is nothing new.

[Nir Eyal]

We know that the Greek philosopher Plato complained about this very problem 2500 years ago. He called it Akrasia in the Greek, the tendency to do things against our better interest.

[David Epstein]

So we can't blame it all on modern technology.

[Nir Eyal]

I got myself a flip phone from the 1990s and a word processor off of ebay that they don't even make anymore. And wouldn't you know it, I thought, okay, now I'm off the Internet. I'm not going to get distracted anymore. And then I would say to myself, oh, but there's that book on the shelf, or I should probably take out the trash. And I found one distraction after the other after the other. And that's when I realized it wasn't about what was happening outside of me. It was really about what's happening inside of me. That distraction really does begin from within. Now, the good news is that we're not powerless, that there are some techniques that anyone can use to become indistractable.

[David Epstein]

The first step to becoming indistractable is to understand what a distraction is. You might think distractions are easy to identify, right, since you're encountering them on a daily basis. But in order to understand distraction, you need to first identify the opposite.

[Nir Eyal]

So most people will tell you the opposite of distraction is focus, but that's not exactly right. The opposite of distraction is not focus. The opposite of distraction, if you look at the origin of the word, is traction. So traction, by definition, is any action that pulls you towards what you intend to do. Things that are in accordance with your values, things that help you become the kind of person you want to become. The opposite of traction is distraction. Distraction is any action that pulls you further from what you plan to do. Things that you are not doing with intent, things that pull you further away from your values and pull you further away from becoming the kind of person you want to become.

[Helena]

I definitely think that makes a lot of sense. And like traction, that's actually a word that I've used myself before to describe what I'm not getting. In certain respects, this is crucial.

[David Epstein]

Release yourself from moralizing about everything you do. If you were planning to watch a video on YouTube, then technically not a distraction.

[Nir Eyal]

It's not about how you spend your time. It's about whether you spend that time with intent. So as Dorothy Parker said, she had this wonderful quote. She said, the time you plan to waste is not wasted time. For example, one of my biggest distractions was I would sit down to, you know, work on some big project. I had my to do list and I said, okay, now I'm going to. I'm going to focus. Here I go. But before I do that big project, let me just check email real quick, right? So just because something feels like work, whether it's returning emails or, you know, scrolling a Slack channel or Whatever the case might be, doesn't mean it's not a distraction. In fact, that's the worst kind of distraction because it tricks you into not realizing that it is, in fact, a distraction.

[David Epstein]

So what's the root cause of this distraction in the first place? Nir says there are really two types.

[Nir Eyal]

The first kind is kind of the usual suspect. It's the external triggered. So these are the pings, the dings, the rings, your boss, your kids, anything outside of you that can lead you off track. That's what most people tend to blame. But it turns out that studies find that that's only 10% of the time that you get distracted. Is it because of an external trigger? The other 90% of the time that we go off track, the other 90% of the time we check our phones, for instance, is because of what we call an internal trigger. An internal trigger is an uncomfortable emotional state that we seek to escape. So boredom, fatigue, loneliness, anxiety, uncertainty, stress, these are the primary drivers of distraction and procrastination. And one of the most important things to realize is that this is not a character flaw. This is not some kind of moral deficit in any way. The very first step, where we must start, is to understand that time management is pain management.

[Helena]

Okay?

[Nir Eyal]

Time management is pain management. So the very first step, and we. We heard some of this very, you know, charged emotion language earlier when you were describing the experience that you were having, is to understand what are the internal triggers. Starting with, I think this fear of leaving things unanswered. I think this very emotional reaction that you had. And I appreciate you sharing it so much around your father. Because what happens with people who get distracted and procrastinate is that the procrastination, the delaying of the task, becomes a coping mechanism to help us not face that fear that we'll fail somehow at the tasks. How does that resonate?

[Helena]

You know, I'm trying to draw the connection between that and just wanting to have, like, all the information and all the options.

[David Epstein]

What about for, like, the photo book and stuff? Do you think that's applicable there too?

[Helena]

Yeah, because I was looking for the best quality, like photo reproduction, and I found, like, a company that I liked and their website turned out to be too difficult for me to navigate. And then I just moved on to something else that was, you know, seemed more important at the time and have not returned to that particular project.

[David Epstein]

Helena feels like her lack of execution can be attributed to too much information and just too many choices. That's totally valid. But the fear of being bored and Being left alone with your thoughts. And that's probably a bigger motivator than you realize. There was actually a study done by psychologist Timothy Wilson where he fooled subjects into thinking they were participating in one study. But in fact, the real experiment was leaving them alone in a waiting room with nothing at all to do except to press a button that would give themselves an electric shock.

[Nir Eyal]

And all they had to do was just sit there and wait until the researcher returned and do nothing. Essentially, all they could do is if they wanted to shock themselves. And that'd be the last thing you do, right? Well, it turns out that two thirds of men and about one third of women would rather administer a painful electrical. Electrical shock than to just sit in silence and be bored for a few minutes. Because boredom is an uncomfortable sensation. It is a very powerful internal trigger. And so, you know, we. We need stimulation, you guys.

[Helena]

I don't know about the study in the room, but I don't know if there are any moms in there, but I would have micro napped. I don't know about that button. I don't know about that at all.

[David Epstein]

That would have been a better use of time than shocking yourself.

[Nir Eyal]

There's actually another interesting phenomenon called revenge procrastination, which is when at nighttime, typically, people will scroll on their phones in bed. Despite the fact that we feel super tired, you know, we want to go to sleep, and yet we stay up later and later looking at our phones, even though all we want to do is go to sleep. Why do we do that? And so the theory is, is that it's when our life feels out of control, this is something we can control.

[David Epstein]

Electric shocks and revenge procrastination aside, identifying your own external and internal triggers, in other words, the underlying reasons you're feeling uncomfortable is step three in becoming indistractable, Step four, actually making a schedule.

[Nir Eyal]

And it doesn't have to be for every minute of your day, but at least in some parts of your life. What we want to do is to turn your values into time. So I would ask you in the next few days here to ask yourself, how much of a priority are these things? Are they really even important? Right? Is the lavender garden or the photo book, whatever it is that will help you live according to your values, do you want to make time for those things? And nobody says you have to, right? Nobody's judging you. Nobody's saying there needs to be a lavender garden. Nobody says there needs to be a photo book other than you. But if that's important to you, then what I would invite you to do is to put that time on your calendar to book an appointment with yourself for a set amount of time.

[David Epstein]

That calendar technique is called time boxing where you make a specific block for each task on your calendar. And it's pretty effective. Plus it helps us answer the age old question, what's better to do? Lists or calendars.

[Nir Eyal]

Running your life on a to do list is one of the worst things you can do for your personal productivity because it has this effect of reinforcing a self image of someone who doesn't live with personal integrity. There's never an end to the number of to do's on a to do list. And so that has this psychological effect of every day you see this list of things you still haven't done. And day after day, week after week, month after month, year after year, you're reinforcing your self image of someone who doesn't do what they say they're going to do. And that begins to take a psychic toll.

[Helena]

Yeah, and what I would say is, I mean, the list thing doesn't really work for things that, you know, I guess I don't know how to describe it, but things that have a. Like don't have a definite end date or that have just a broader sort of picture, I guess, Right?

[Nir Eyal]

Absolutely, absolutely. So what we want to start doing is to stop measuring ourselves based on how many little cute boxes we check off and instead measure ourself by a different metric. And that metric of success is, did I do what I said I was going to do without distraction for as long as I said I would? That's it. What I invite you to try is to say, I'm going to work on this task. It's in my calendar. Just like an appointment with a good friend or your boss or a colleague. You wouldn't miss that appointment. So I want you to make that appointment with yourself and this task. And I'm guessing you already do this at work because you're a successful lawyer. So you know, to get things done at work you have to pay full attention. You can't, you know, do many things at once. It turns out studies find that when people measure themselves by this technique, those people turns out actually accomplish more. They actually get more things done than the people who run their life with a to do list.

[David Epstein]

So designating the time rather than the task.

[Nir Eyal]

Exactly.

[David Epstein]

Helena, what do you think about that?

[Helena]

I like the idea. I think what would. I mean, it would definitely bother me to not get anything done and sometimes that's how it feels like I'm just I'm not going to get any of this done because I only have like 10, 15 minutes or I'm going to get interrupted. So it's like why bother? But yeah, I mean it's definitely a good place to start.

[David Epstein]

So that's step five. You need to reframe how you see your accomplishments. Count the input, not the output. Instead of counting success as just did I finish this project? Your success should be based on did you work on your project for the allotted time without distraction? But what happens if life really is getting in the way? When we come back, Nir will help Helena balance these rules with the reality of being a busy lawyer and a busy parent. Don't go doom scrolling just yet. We'll be back in a minute.

[Podcast Host / Announcer]

If you're looking for another podcast that brings therapy resources to your earbuds, then check out the self work podcast. Ten years ago, Dr. Margaret Rutherford decided to extend the walls of her psychology practice as far as they could go, and the Self Work Podcast was born. Each week, Dr. Margaret dives into an issue in mental health that she's personally researched, adding in her own two bits from over 30 years of experience. And you'll also hear the interviews with creative and informative guests who bring their own experience to the table. Her warm Southern drawl soothes and comforts. She's about as down to earth as they come. Rated by many as the best depression podcast out there, Self Work stresses what you can do about it. So if you're seeking ideas and actions to move yourself forward, Self Work is for you. Find it on your favorite podcast app and tell them how to sent you.

[David Epstein]

We're back with Helena and our procrastination busting expert, Nir Eyal, author of Indistractible Telling yourself you'll set aside time to do something. It sounds great, but the reality for so many of us is you sit down to work on something and ping another email from your boss or from your tyrannical podcast producer or your kid comes careening into the room like that little girl on the BBC. I would be surprised if they do the pardon me,

[Nir Eyal]

my apologies.

[Helena]

So that's, I think part of the problem. For me it's like a triage like and you know, I think a lot of this has to do with becoming a parent. You kind of have to triage. I've just felt like I've been in survival mode for a while and maybe just kind of come starting to come out of it. So like, you know, choosing one thing and I mean it's like, whatever's most urgent that day, when I have a half hour, like, that's what I'm going to do.

[David Epstein]

This is why flexibility is key when making and sticking to a schedule. But you also need to account for the possible distractions in all three of your life domains. You, your relationships, and your work.

[Nir Eyal]

You are at the center of these three life domains. So how is that time that you are making for yourself allocated? Do you have time for proper rest? Right. We tell our kids that they have to have a bedtime. But do we have a bedtime as adults? Whatever's important to you is that time on your calendar. Then we can go into the relationship domain. Have we made time for our closest friends and family members? Is that time on our schedule? Or do we give people whatever scraps of time are left over after everything else is done? And then finally with our work domain. You know, many people are so busy doing what's called reactive work, they're running around reacting to emails, reacting to meetings, reacting to Slack notifications that they don't have any time for reflective work. But of course, reflective work is the kind of work that can only be done without distraction. The thinking, the strategizing, the planning has to have that time carved out. So I hear from so many people, and I used to do this, too. Oh, you know, the world is so distracting these days. Did you hear what happened in the news? And my boss wants this and my kids want that. But when you say, okay, but what did you get distracted from? Show me your calendar. Oh, there's nothing on my calendar.

[David Epstein]

Helena, what if you were going to try this, since we also talked about priorities, Right. If you were going to try this time boxing, like, with something as simple as looking for one afternoon or evening or little chunk of time a week, which of the projects do you think you would start with? And do you think that might be useful to sort of pick one?

[Helena]

Yeah, yeah. I'm trying to think of, like, something, like, bigger. Like. Like, I want to write a book. I want to write a book.

[Nir Eyal]

Fantastic. That's.

[Helena]

That's.

[Nir Eyal]

That's a great one. Okay. A lot of people want to write books.

[Helena]

I know. That's why it sounds ridiculous.

[Nir Eyal]

No, no, it's fantastic. It's not ridiculous at all.

[David Epstein]

You're talking to two guys who have written books, so it doesn't sound so ridiculous.

[Nir Eyal]

Who have struggled. I don't know about you, David, but writing a book sucks. It's really hard, right?

[David Epstein]

Oh, my God. There's a definite reason I'm not writing a book right now, it's very, very hard work.

[Nir Eyal]

And all you want to do is delay and procrastinate and research something and make up every excuse in the book why you can't write right this minute. Because it's hard. But what does that mean? Right? The number one reason we don't do something is because we don't feel like it. I don't feel like going to the gym. I don't feel like writing my book. I don't feel like doing this thing. What are those things? They are internal triggers. That's why that's the most important step is figuring out how do I deal with that discomfort.

[David Epstein]

One really common difficulty that Helena has with getting started on tasks is a fear that she won't do them exactly right because she doesn't have enough time. Or again, she's paralyzed by too many options. This is where another technique comes in. This one's called the ten minute rule.

[Nir Eyal]

I can give in to that distraction, but not right now. Because the orthodoxy to date, most people think the way to not get distracted is abstinence. Tell yourself, no, don't do it. A bad boy or a girl, don't give in. And it turns out that that is exactly the wrong thing to do with most types of distractions. So instead of telling yourself no, you want to tell yourself, not yet. So what I do when I am doing my writing and all I want to do is get distracted by something and let myself, you know, do something other than the writing, is I'll set a timer for 10 minutes, just 10 minutes. And for those 10 minutes, I have two choices. I can either get back to the task at hand, go back to whatever it is I said I was going to do at that time, or do what psychologists call surf the urge. And surfing the urge acknowledges that these uncomfortable sensations, the uncertainty, the fear, the stress, the boredom, the loneliness, the anxiety, whatever the case might be, these are fleeting. They don't feel like they're fleeting. They feel like they're gonna last forever, but they never do. And so if we can ride those sensations like a surfer on a surfboard, to just surf that urge for just 10 minutes, what we will find is that nine times out of 10, by the time that timer goes off in just 10 minutes, we no longer feel that urge. We'll be right back at that task at hand. And so what happens is over time, we train ourselves to turn the 10 minute rule into the 11 minute rule and the 12 minute rule and then the 15 minute rule and the 20 minute rule, and we Begin to build an identity and of someone who is indistractable, someone who can master these internal triggers.

[David Epstein]

To hold yourself accountable to the 10 minutes, you can use a timer. I actually use an old school big clock called a time timer and it has this red disk that disappears as the time's winding down. And that helps me visualize how long I have left. Or there are apps that are also pretty compelling.

[Nir Eyal]

I use an app on my phone called Forest that plants a little virtual tree on your screen. It basically is this countdown timer that restricts, restricts you from checking your phone and doing anything with it. Because if you do, this cute little virtual tree on your screen gets chopped down. So it's just a little reminder to tell you, nope, that's not what you plan to do with your time. Because again, it's about intent.

[David Epstein]

This leads us to our last step. Make a pact. A pact is a pre commitment device. You decide in advance that there's going to be a real repercussion if you don't do what you said you're going to do.

[Nir Eyal]

It's the last line of defense. It's a firewall. Now this technique does not work if you don't do the other three steps first. So that's my warning here. Okay. But if you've done the other three steps first, it can be very, very effective. So the way that I took this up a notch, David, was when I had my book and I've been research researching for four years around this book. And then I just, I just needed to write the darn thing. I just needed to finish it. And so I made a bet with my friend Mark and I said, if I don't finish my manuscript by January 1st, I will pay you $10,000. Right. It was an amount that had to hurt. Right. And of course people say, oh, that's crazy. I mean, that's so much money. How could you do that? Well, of course. Do you think I had to pay him the money? No, because that bet that I made with him, that disincentive, that what we call a price pact, was enough of added motivation now that I had done the other three steps first to, to get me to actually crank out the book and keep my money.

[Helena]

Yeah. There's no ten grand coming for me. I don't know.

[David Epstein]

But it's gotta hurt.

[Nir Eyal]

Yeah. It's funny, there was a woman who wrote to me, she had written her own manuscript and she had to edit it, but she'd been procrastinating for over two years. And so she made A pact with her children that she called the cut or cut pact. On a certain day, if she didn't finish editing her manuscript, she would either get to cut a piece of cake to celebrate that she had finished editing her manuscript, or she would let her three kids cut her hair. So it was enough of a disincentive. But it's not as severe as, let's say, a $10,000 bet.

[David Epstein]

The trick to the pact is that it's gotta hurt. You can't say, if I don't do this, I have to donate to my favorite charity because that'll still make you feel good instead. It has to be something that you'd really dread in order to serve as proper motivation.

[Nir Eyal]

After we do that, that sets the stage for us to finally look at ourselves and say, wait a minute, do I actually want this? Do I really want to do this photo book? Do I really want to do that lavender garden? Or is this just noise? And I'm okay with my life? And if you're okay with it, awesome. Nobody's going to tell you to do anything different. But at some point, we have to ask ourselves, what do I actually want? Which is why a calendar is so effective. When we sit down with our values and ask ourselves, how do we want to spend our time? It's this trick of applying it to various areas of our life that's difficult. And this is very, very common. You'll see people who are super productive, super focused in one area and not so much in another, because it's this misalignment of figuring out in advance how we want to spend our time.

[David Epstein]

Helena, if you were going to start formally scheduling, you know, one of your projects, what. What would it be like if you were going to start doing that next week?

[Helena]

So, I mean, it would probably be like the photo book.

[Nir Eyal]

Is there a particular time on your calendar where you think that would be

[Helena]

doable, like 4 or 5am

[Nir Eyal]

well, look, you know, part of the answer might be this is not a priority because, you know, there's a reason that we use the same language that we use with time that we do with money. Right? We make money just like we make time. We spend money just like we spend time. We pay attention just like we pay with dollars and cents. And so unlike money, we have a fixed amount of time, right? You can always make more money. You can't make more time. Part of the beauty of timeboxing is that it forces you to make a trade off. You can't do it all. You only have 24 hours in a day. Either you will schedule your time or your time will be scheduled for you.

[Helena]

Right?

[Nir Eyal]

It's happening whether you like it or not. The question is will you be in charge of it or will somebody else be in charge of it? But how about experimenting with this upcoming weekend with I'm gonna book one hour for myself to work on this photo book or your creative writing project for example.

[Helena]

Yeah, I think that would definitely work better for me and make more sense. It's really hard to put like you ahead of, of other, you know, other

[Nir Eyal]

people and well, it's also in a way if you don't take care of yourself, you can't give your all to your family or to your work. Right. You are at the center of your three life domains. You are the most important person in your world. And so it is through self care, it is through, through prioritizing yourself that you can give the most to your son, to your husband and to your work.

[Helena]

Yeah, 100% I agree. Does this sound like a hopeless case?

[Nir Eyal]

No, not at all. But nothing's going to change unless you do. I hate to tell you that it's not going to take care of itself. It's probably the least hopeless case I've ever heard. This is easy peasy because I deal oftentimes with people who can't find focus in any area of their life. You have these skills like you're cranking it at work. Right. You can do this.

[Helena]

Well, thank you so much Nir. And thank you David. I really appreciate you guys talking to me about this.

[David Epstein]

Thanks to Helena for sharing her story with us and to Nir Eyal for all his useful advice. Make sure to look for his book how to Control youl Attention and choose youe Life.

[Helena]

Hi everyone, this is Helena and I just wanted to give you a quick update. One of the most helpful things for me I think was the idea of setting a time limit. And then even if you don't actually finish the thing, you still treat it as advancing that project because you basically moved it forward. And that's the win for the day sometimes. As far as the photo book goes, I have blocked some time out next week so I consider that a success.

[Podcast Host / Announcer]

And that was the episode of how to from 2021. I'll read you some of the credits from then. The executive producers were Derek John and Rachel Allen. Margaret Kelly and Rosemary Belson produced the show. Host emeritus was Charles Duhigg. We usually do a little fun thing with that. I'm just gonna let it stand as that guy. Guy was the host emeritus still is the emeritus status. It stays with you. It's a lifetime appointment, like the Supreme Court. On my daily show, the gist, I talked to Derek Palmer today. He was one of the guys who founded the Amazon Union. And here he talks about what it was like working for Amazon in the warehouse in those days.

[Nir Eyal]

The conditions are just they're very bad. You know, the, the dust in the air is bad. You leave work and you have, like, black snot in your nose. Even, like the microwaves and the refrigerators, sometimes there's, like, roaches and roaches there. I found a lot of them there.

[Podcast Host / Announcer]

Derek Palmer and his handbook for the revolution, building a More Perfect Union for the 21st century, on the Gist today. Listen for that. And listen for next week for all your questions of how to.