How To Make New Friends as an Adult

Summary

Podcast Summary: How To Make New Friends as an Adult

Podcast: How To! with Mike Pesca
Host: Mike Pesca
Guest Expert: Dr. Marissa G. Franco, Professor & Author of "Platonic"
Listener Guest: Steven from Arizona
Date: June 16, 2026

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Episode Overview

This episode tackles the increasingly common challenge of making new friends as an adult. Host Mike Pesca welcomes listener Steven, who's finding it hard to move from acquaintanceship to friendship as he nears retirement. To help, friendship researcher and author Dr. Marissa G. Franco joins to offer insight, science-backed advice, and practical steps for building adult friendships in today’s world, addressing both the emotional blocks and societal shifts that have made platonic connection harder.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

The Friendship Recession

[01:11] Mike Pesca:

• The percentage of U.S. adults reporting no close friends has quadrupled since 1990 to 12%.
• Those with 10+ close friends has fallen by nearly threefold.
• Friendship deficits impact all age groups, especially retirees and young adults.

Quote:
"We need friends. The young need friends. The middle aged need friends. The old need friends. So what do we do about making friends? It's hard, I guess the first part is to diagnose the problem." – Mike Pesca (01:11)

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Diagnosing Steven's Struggle

[02:09 - 05:08] Steven:

• Moved from California to Arizona; had an easier time making friends earlier due to situational contexts (marching band, work).
• Now, with grown kids and fewer natural social settings, finding new close friends is tough.
• Feels reliant on his wife’s social connections and activities like mountain biking.

[05:49] Steven:

• Describes how mountain biking provides limited social time (mainly before and after rides).
• Finds it hard to propose further social plans, like grabbing a beer—prefers when others initiate.

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Barriers to Adult Friendship

[12:04 - 13:35] Dr. Marissa G. Franco:

• The "friendship recession" is real, with technology/smartphones and changes in life stages as main drivers.
• Retirement leads to decreased well-being due to less social support.

[14:40] Dr. Marissa G. Franco:

• Shame and fear of rejection are common and make adults hesitant to admit their loneliness or take initiative.
• "Rejection means you're going for the life you really want. Rejection means you're trying. You can't control the outcome, you can only control the process." (14:40)

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The Science: Liking Gap & Fear of Rejection

[15:32 - 17:55] Dr. Marissa G. Franco:

• Most people underestimate how much strangers like them (the "liking gap").
• The "acceptance prophecy": assuming you'll be liked makes you friendlier and more open—a self-fulfilling prophecy.
• Fear of rejection leads to pre-emptively rejecting others or avoiding opportunities.

Quote:
"The fear of rejection really inhibits friendship. Because when we fear rejection, we reject people. We are closed off, we are withdrawn, we're quiet, we're in the corner." – Dr. Marissa G. Franco (15:32)

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Tactics: Why Friendship is Harder as an Adult

[18:27 - 19:17] Dr. Marissa G. Franco:

• Cites sociologist Rebecca G. Adams: Friendship happens with repeated, unplanned interaction, proximity, and vulnerability—built-in during school years, rare in adult life.
• Adults need to make conscious effort since friendship is no longer “organic.”

Quote:
"People that think friendship takes effort are less lonely over time because they make an effort." – Dr. Marissa G. Franco (19:17)

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Overcoming Self-Consciousness and Initiating Plans

[21:42 - 25:07] Dr. Marissa G. Franco & Steven:

• Steven is hesitant to initiate for fear of making others uncomfortable.
• Dr. Franco reframes: "Your fatal flaw is you're very kind and polite." (22:45)
• Encourages Steven to 'hold his identity lightly'—the idea of not being “the initiator” can be changed; these are skillsets, not fixed traits.

Quote:
"Not being the initiator … that doesn't have to be part of who you are, even if it's who you've been...I think you totally could do something different than you have before, and it might even really benefit you." – Dr. Marissa G. Franco (24:13)

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Applying Work Skills to Friendship

[25:07 - 26:40] Steven & Dr. Franco:

• Steven realizes he already uses leadership and outreach skills at work; can apply them more intentionally in social scenarios.
• Dr. Franco highlights “traits vs. states”; skills can cross over into new roles and situations.

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Showing Up: Physical vs. Mental Presence

[27:08 - 28:36] Dr. Marissa G. Franco:

• Warns against ‘covert avoidance’: physically attending social events but mentally checking out or leaving early.
• Engagement and small steps (like inviting someone for a beer after a group ride) matter, even if uncomfortable at first.
• "There's something called the mere exposure effect … the more exposed we are to each other, the more that we like each other." (27:23)

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“Repotting” and Creating New Opportunities

[28:56 - 30:21] Mike Pesca & Dr. Franco:

• Suggests inviting biking acquaintances to other social settings—repotting relationships deepens them.
• Dr. Franco: "If you can see these bike people in a new setting, your relationships are gonna be deepened." (30:06)

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Perceptions and Giving What You Want to Receive

[30:38 - 35:15] Dr. Franco & Steven:

• Flip the worry: instead of worrying how invitations are perceived, consider how you’d feel if you received them.
• Initiation, warmth, and demonstration of interest make friendships likelier (“give what you want to get”).

Quote:
"If you would like it, probably a lot of people there would like it too." – Dr. Marissa G. Franco (31:16)

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Navigating Differences and Deeper Connection

[31:18 - 33:14] Dr. Franco, Steven & Mike Pesca:

• Acknowledge modern barriers: political differences, fear of social faux pas.
• Suggests waiting before broaching controversial topics—get to know people more fully first.
• *"In group/out group" effects lessen once a relationship is established.

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Friendship and Self-Understanding

[34:32 - 37:14] Mike Pesca & Dr. Franco:

• Making new friends as an adult is about “conquering the last mile”—the final step from acquaintance to friend.
• Dr. Franco: Giving what you want to receive and aligning intentions with actions builds the friendships you want.
• Dr. Franco shares that she wasn’t a natural friend-maker: she became an expert after realizing she undervalued platonic love.

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Memorable Quotes & Moments

• Dr. Franco: “Rejection means you're going for the life you really want. Rejection means you're trying...” (14:40)
• Mike Pesca: “I think you are like Amazon eight years ago. You just haven't conquered the last mile.” (34:07)
• Dr. Franco: “Hold that identity really lightly... It's actually more of a skill set than a part of who you are.” (24:13)
• Dr. Franco: "To make friends, you don't only have to overcome overt avoidance..., but also covert avoidance, where you show up physically and you check out mentally..." (27:23)
• Steven: "It's not hard to apply that same skill set to a social situation and just kind of organize stuff and put things together." (25:07)

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Actionable Advice & Takeaways

1. Initiate—Don’t Wait:
   Push through the discomfort and be the one to propose plans or continue the interaction. Assume others will appreciate it.

2. Repot Relationships:
   Move from the original group setting (e.g., mountain biking) to a new context (trivia night, coffee meet-up) to deepen connections. (30:06)

3. Redistribute Your Skill Set:
   Skills used in work or other contexts (leadership, organization) translate well into social life.

4. Embrace Vulnerability & Rejection:
   Being brave is required; rejection is less likely than you fear, and going for it is a worthwhile act.

5. Consistent Exposure Matters:
   Repeated, casual interactions (even “small talk” before and after an activity) set the stage for trust and deeper connection.

6. Give What You Want to Get:
   Show warmth, express interest, and invite people as you’d like to be invited.

7. Be Self-Compassionate:
   Making friends as an adult is hard for most people—effort and intentionality are not signs of weakness, but strengths.

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Notable Timestamps

• 01:00: Fear of rejection in friendship (Dr. Franco)
• 12:04: Introduction of Dr. Franco and explanation of friendship recession
• 15:32: Liking gap and acceptance prophecy
• 18:27: Why adult friendship is hard (unplanned interaction & vulnerability)
• 21:42: Dr. Franco commends Steven for getting out there
• 24:13: “Hold that identity lightly” advice
• 27:23: Distinguishing between overt and covert avoidance
• 30:06: Repotting and deepening relationships
• 34:32: Concrete steps—flip the self-conscious focus and start giving what you want to get
• 35:31: Dr. Franco’s personal story as a friendship expert

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Episode Tone

• Warm, reassuring, and practical.
• The conversation is gentle, honest, and occasionally humorous. The advice is delivered empathetically, blending personal experience, science, and actionable steps.

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Summary:
Adult friendship is challenging, but by understanding our psychological barriers—and leaning into small, deliberate acts of connection—we can build new, meaningful relationships at any age. Dr. Franco and Mike Pesca demystify the process, emphasizing that bravery, repeated effort, and initiating (even when awkward) are the keys to success.

Transcript

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[Dr. Marissa G. Franco]

The fear of rejection really inhibits friendship. Because when we fear rejection, we reject people. My niece read my book and she said for friendship to happen, someone has to be brave. So you have to be brave.

[Mike Pesca]

You've probably heard of the friendship recession, which Harvard calls the lost art of connecting. Some statistics there. The percentage of US adults who report having no close friends has quadrupled since 1990 to 12%. The percentage of those with 10 or more close friends has fallen by nearly threefold. The University of Michigan reports that half of older adults who have fair or poor mental health say they do not have enough close friends. We need friends. The young need friends. The middle aged need friends. The old need friends. So what do we do about making friends? It's hard, I guess the first part is to diagnose the problem. And my new friend Stephen, heretofore a stranger. But as you know, a stranger is just a friend. You haven't met a stranger to me. But now a friend describes himself this way.

[Steven]

I'm Stephen. I live in Arizona. And as I near retirement, I'm looking to expand my friend circle.

[Mike Pesca]

How long have you lived there?

[Steven]

About eight years.

[Mike Pesca]

Okay, and you had a large friend circle. Where was the last place you lived previously was California.

[Steven]

We were fortunate enough to be surrounded with people with similar situations, kids of the same age. And it was really, at that time, it almost became very natural to meet a bunch of people.

[Mike Pesca]

So it was easy to not just meet people, but to turn those people into friends.

[Steven]

Yes. Mostly due to their personalities, not mine. Right. So they were the ones more commonly reaching out and making those connections. And I. It's easy for me to go along once someone else initiates.

[Bethenny Frankel]

So.

[Steven]

Yeah.

[Mike Pesca]

Before you moved to Arizona eight years ago, did you even question how you made friends or your number of friends, or was the idea of friendship just something that you, I'm sure, were happy for your friends but mostly took for granted?

[Steven]

Definitely took for granted. I think it was never really hard to make friends, but I think that was always because it was situational. I did marching band in high school, so there's always a large group of people you're forced to be with all the time. You know, my first few jobs were really intense. So me and a small group of people were always really, you know, tight knit, working long hours together and you make friendships that way. Since we moved to Arizona, again, the kids have grown up. The school type connections have kind of fallen away. So the situations in which I can meet new people is very. Become much more limited. And I'm concerned, you know, again, as I near retirement and eventually do retire, where am I going to find those situations where we can kind of create those connections?

[Mike Pesca]

What was your job, your high intensity job that led to a lot of bonding?

[Steven]

I'm a chemist, so I've worked in the. And I started out working in the labs. R and D and stuff like that?

[Mike Pesca]

Yeah, yeah. So from marching band to chemist, I think again, you're making a great case for yourself. I'm sure many people will hear this and say, I want to be Steven's friend. Describe a typical social situation and how you might pivot an acquaintanceship into a friendship.

[Steven]

So that very specific thing, pivoting an acquaintanceship into a friendship, I think that's definitely my shortcoming. So I definitely do things where I get out and I meet new people. I like the mountain bikes, so I'll go out and I'll do groups and we go do group rides and chat with people. But then that's that. And taking that next step from having a good chat with somebody to let's go get a beer or let's have dinner or let's do something else. For some reason, for me, that always feels like a big hurdle and it's easier if somebody else is the initiator. Then I could just go along. I've also relied on my wife so since we moved to Arizona, she's a runner, so she has her running groups. But then she, you know, she talks a lot more and asks a lot more questions than I do and she meets people. And so through her I've met other people, but again, it's somebody else doing the hard work for me and me kind of going along and meeting other people through them.

[Mike Pesca]

So are your friends more the husbands of your wife's friends who get along with fine, but they're not your friends.

[Steven]

It's a mix. So some of them I have become very good friends with. Yes. And other than just acquaintances.

[Mike Pesca]

So you're beating yourself up that that's the only avenue or you also find yourself lacking for really good friends even if it's through your wife?

[Steven]

Yeah, I think lacking for the more in depth or more comfortable and connected relationships those are seem to be harder for me to find and cultivate.

[Mike Pesca]

So you mountain bike with other people. I'm just taking one thing that you do. If you have another chemistry club on the side, you tell me about it. But there is this activity that you do and it's mountain biking. Describ. Describe how the interactivity of a mountain biking excursion might go as I have never been mountain biking and I'm going to say that's not how I'm going to make my friends in the future.

[Steven]

The social parts are usually at the beginning and the end. Right. You start out the ride, everyone's chit chatting and then while you're pedaling, you're typically, if we're on single track, you're in a line so no one's really having much of a conversation. You might shout back and forth, but because of marching band in the years, my hearing ain't so good anymore. So there's a lot of what? And then after the ride you might hang out and you know, chit chat. So and then those circles kind of there's people I specifically know that I mountain bike with consistently. And then if you do like bigger groups, that organ that are more organized but people come and go and you might not see the same people every

[Mike Pesca]

week and give me a situation. You've mountain biked with some people and maybe you've had chit chat in the beginning, hey, that was a cool ride. Or hey, did you see that stump over there two miles back? Or was that a copperhead snake? Don't know. Hope I'm faking it. And then the person will say, oh, I, you know, this stump that we saw two weeks ago was much worse. And then you get to a position where you say to yourself, well, if he were to say, hey man, you want to go for a beer? You'd say yes, but you'd never say, hey man, do you want to go for a beer?

[Steven]

Yeah. It's funny, I think I have a harder time making that leap. Not sure why. And of course sometimes I'm not always ready to commit. You know, I've just spent how many hours writing and then I feel like, oh, I got to do this at home, this home, and I got all these other things to do. So then I might cut things short. So sometimes I probably not am the most receptive if someone does ask for something to do, something additional.

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[Mike Pesca]

Okay. Well, I would say that you have identified a problem. Wanting to work on this seems like, as they say, an excellent first step. And I'll go further and say your affability shines through in our interview. So I think you are a good candidate for friendship. Sir, will you stay with me as I hook you up with an expert who might have some pieces of advice not just for you, but for other Stevens out there, which is to say former marching band chemist, mount bike riders?

[Steven]

Yeah, let's do it.

[Mike Pesca]

Okay. In a moment we will be joined by an expert in friendship and an expert in either mountain biking or marching band or maybe stump recognition. We'll hear how to make this chemist bond. Join us when we continue in a moment. You know, starting something new isn't just hard, it can be terrifying. You want to nail down every contingency, every question mark should turn into. If not a period. It would be great if it were an exclamation, wouldn't it? When I started this podcast, I wasn't sure what I was doing. I was asking myself, can I really be the one to take over this august institution? What if no one buys the products that we're selling now? I know I was right in believing in myself and launching my business. And it also helps when you have a partner like Shopify on your side to help. Shopify is the commerce platform behind millions of businesses around the world and 10% of all e commerce from the US with household names like Untuck It, Mamafuku, Gymshark, and Skims, many of them also advertise on programs like this. And so I don't want to do an advertisement within an advertisement. But what I'm saying is successful businesses use use Shopify to be more successful. Get started with your own design studio. With hundreds of ready to use templates, Shopify helps you build a beautiful online store that matches your brand's style. What if you get stuck? Shopify is always around share advice with their award winning 24. 7 Customer Support what if people haven't heard about your brand? Shopify helps you find your customers with easy to run email and social media campaigns. It's time for to turn those what ifs into with Shopify today. Sign up for your $1 per month trial today at shopify.com how to go to shopify.com how to that's shopify.com how to if you're like most people, no one ever taught you how to manage your thoughts, work through big feelings, or handle stress and trauma. So you've been left to figure it out on your own through trial, error and a lot of frustration. For many people, this has fueled anxiety, depression or ptsd. The Therapy in a Nutshell podcast, hosted by a licensed therapist, is here to change that. These bite sized episodes teach you the practical mental health skills most people were never taught. Like how to stop spiraling thoughts, regulate intense emotions, and respond to anxiety in ways that actually help. Every episode is built on research and focused on action so you don't just understand your mind, you know exactly what to do next. Millions of monthly followers have found that learning these skills has changed their lives and improved their mental health. Doctors, teachers, therapists, psychiatrists, and substance abuse counselors all recommend Therapy in a Nutshell to help their patients learn the mental health skills that really make a difference. You can too. Check out the Therapy in a Nutshell podcast today.

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[Mike Pesca]

Welcome back to How To. We're talking about friendship. How to make them. We're here with Stephen. He's laid out what he does to try to Be a friend seems normal and reasonable enough and yet the friendships aren't materializing. So we brought in not just a person who knows how to throw her arm around someone. Not a hail woman well met, but an actual bonafide expert, a doctor in the field.

[Dr. Marissa G. Franco]

Hi, I'm Dr. Marissa G. Franco. I am a professor, speaker and New York Times bestselling author of Platonic On Making Friends and the forthcoming book Worth on the Science of Self Esteem and secure attachment.

[Mike Pesca]

Dr. Franco, before we get to Steven's case, I want to ask you a couple of broad questions. Okay. Did the I'm sure you have seen specifically even that Harvard study the friendship recession. Do you think that's accurate or a little hyped?

[Dr. Marissa G. Franco]

I think it's accurate. I think we've seen a bunch of different data to suggest that rates of loneliness are increasing. I mean, in 2012 there's a big jump, particularly for young folks. That was around when we started to get the smartphone. It's hard to tell what has been pushing this trend in loneliness, but I think the most compelling reason that I've seen has been our increased technology use.

[Mike Pesca]

Are there different reasons for the friendship recession among different populations?

[Dr. Marissa G. Franco]

Hmm, that's such a great question. Well, because the younger folks are really vulnerable to the technology use. We've seen them being the loneliest generation of all younger people, Gen Z now. But the younger folks used to have the best mental health of any generation. Now they have the worst. So they've definitely been hit the hardest by this friendship reception. But we also see that, for example, as people get into couples, they get married, as they have kids, they tend to lose a couple of friendships as well because, you know, life gets really busy. But related to Steven's case, when you retire, people actually report a decrease in well being and that's because they report less social support once they go into retirement.

[Mike Pesca]

Is there a difference between the kids, the young people who have never been able to cultivate large groups of friends, many of them, and maybe older people like Stephen, not older, but you know, older than kids who had groups of friends, have proven that they could do the friend thing and then move on to another walk of life and find it more difficult?

[Dr. Marissa G. Franco]

I think so. I mean, what I see in Steven is already so many strengths when it comes to making friends. You know, with the technology use, people are not going outside as much. They're swiping on TikTok all evening. That's not what I'm hearing from Steven. He is putting himself in places where friendship can't occur. So I think he already has some strengths.

[Mike Pesca]

But outdoor single file bike riding might not be the best as shoulder to shoulder bonding. Right?

[Dr. Marissa G. Franco]

Sure, sure, absolutely. But you know, that time to chat before, the time to chat after, those can both be very valuable for connection.

[Mike Pesca]

So do people actually come up to you? And how do they. Do they sort of admit it, I'm having trouble making friends, or are they upfront about it? Are people ashamed of the fact that they're not having as many friends as they want?

[Dr. Marissa G. Franco]

Yeah, I think so. I mean, it's really unfortunate that that's something that people feel ashamed of. Like I was talking to my students yesterday, rejection, it feels inherently negative. But I also think it's a negative experience because it's so stigmatized. Like, I feel like a loser because I'm being rejected. And that's unnecessary because to me, rejection means you're going for the life you really want. Rejection means you're trying. You can't control the outcome, you can only control the process. So if you're getting rejected, I'm kind of proud of you for putting yourself out there and gaining a skill no matter what the outcome is.

[Mike Pesca]

I do have to say that to me, rejection comports more with the dating experience. I never thought of rejection and friendship going together. I guess it does. But how often is there the extension of the handshake or the olive branch, or the invitation to go grab the beer and a flat out rejection?

[Dr. Marissa G. Franco]

Well, here's the thing, even before we get to that, right, the fear of rejection really inhibits friendship. Because when we fear rejection, we reject people. We are closed off, we are withdrawn, we're quiet, we're in the corner. But what we see actually in the research is that we're far less likely to get rejected than we think. When strangers interact, they underestimate how much the other person likes them. That's called the liking gap. And so one of the tips I share when it comes to making friends is try to assume that people will like you. Because according to science, on something called the acceptance prophecy, when we're told we'll be liked, even if that's not true, we become friendlier, warmer, more open, more vulnerable. And it also becomes a self fulfilling prophecy.

[Mike Pesca]

Gaps in prophecies. I like it. It's very. I think it would be hard to isolate. But are our personalities getting worse? I mean, that could explain a lot of it, right? I think they might be. I mean, people are, people are. There's a larger fringe and very little unexpected now. Yeah. Okay, so I think we could all that the weirdest 10% is weirder than they've ever been or quite happy making themselves known as weird. But I even mean things like, you know, there's a downside to a lot of the forced so socialization of the past, but there's also an upside, which is a go along to get along and affability and acceptance of someone else's worldview.

[Dr. Marissa G. Franco]

Yeah, I mean, I would say there is some research that like trust in your neighbor relates to trust in society, trust in your government relates to trust in the people around you. So it could be a sort of macro level, trickle down, a effect.

[Mike Pesca]

Yes, yes. America is turning into more of a low trust society. So usually the political science will say, oh, that means we don't trust in our government. But it probably would indicate that it also means that, you know, we'd be more suspicious of others. And then there's fear, Fear of crime, fear of stalkers. A lot of fear in the world not necessarily correlated with the actual chance of being victimized. A lot of fear perpetuated by social media. Social media does a lot of the stuff. So I would think that also would inhibit friendship.

[Dr. Marissa G. Franco]

Yeah, I mean, to make friends you have to feel safe because it's a risk. Right. And for you to take a risk, you have to feel like it might go right. If you're so afraid and you think it won't go wrong, you're not gonna put yourself out there in the first place. My niece read my book and she said for friendship to happen, someone has to be brave. So you have to be brave.

[Mike Pesca]

Mm, yeah. That's interesting. What about how much of your. I don't know if you could do research on this. You're offering explanations, you're offering insight as to the mindset of what keeps people from being friends. Yeah, but are there tactics that people don't use or were there sort of natural grooves that people really didn't have to think about 20, 30 years ago that are no longer available to people in. Even in terms of ways to act or situations to put themselves in?

[Dr. Marissa G. Franco]

Yeah, absolutely. So there's this sociologist, Rebecca G. Adams, and she says for friendship to happen more organically, we need repeated, unplanned interaction like schoolwork. We didn't have to coordinate it. It's already in our schedules. And we need proximity near each other, in physical space, and we need vulnerability. You need to kind of let your guard down. And one of the reasons it's so hard to make friends as an adult is because people don't realize that they had that as kids in gym, art class, recess, extracurriculars. But a lot of adults don't have that at all in their life. They're not necessarily vulnerable at work. And that's the place where they have continuous unplanned interaction. And so what that means is that now if you think friendship happens organically and you're not in settings in which it does, that's actually related to being lonelier over time. Whereas people that think friendship takes effort are less lonely over time because they make an effort.

[Mike Pesca]

All right, so in a moment, we've gotten the broad view. We've gotten the view from a bike trail of Arizona. We're going to unite them and give Steven great advice on how to make friends. Join us for that.

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[Mike Pesca]

We're back with how to. This is the segment on how to make friends. I have two new ones. One is Dr. Marissa Franco. The other is Steven of Arizona, who would like a friend. So, Dr. Franco, you've heard what Steven was saying. What jumped out to you as action items?

[Dr. Marissa G. Franco]

Well, first I just wanted to commend you, Steven, because a lot of people don't get out of the house when they want to make friends. They just kind of hope people come to them. And I think this is a time it's an opportunity and an offering because you've said that, that you really relied on everyone around you making the effort. And I think it can really do something to you to learn how to make that effort a little bit more. In that you're going to build a really cool new skill set. You're going to feel more agency over your social life if you're able to do that. It sounds like you're pretty aware of that root cause of something's kind of holding me back from saying, let's get a beer. And so I kind of wanted to ask a little bit more about that. Do you have any sense of what might be coming up for you that might be getting in the way?

[Steven]

I think I'm just overly self conscious that I'm putting someone on the spot and they now have to say no. Or if they have to come up with a reason to say no if they're uncomfortable. I guess I just don't want to make them uncomfortable. I guess saying that out loud, it kind of sounds silly. It's just a question. But I don't know why it comes up when I'm in those situations.

[Dr. Marissa G. Franco]

So it sounds like your fatal flaw is you're very kind and polite.

[Steven]

That very well could be.

[Mike Pesca]

Well, also, you tell me, is this typical when. When the young people you talk to say it's kind of cringe to put yourself out there or they don't want rejection?

[Dr. Marissa G. Franco]

Yes.

[Mike Pesca]

I don't know if that's exactly what Steven's saying. He's being very empathetic and thinking of the reaction of the other one, if that really is what's going on. There's also this thing called projection, which I've heard about.

[Dr. Marissa G. Franco]

Yeah. Well, Stephen, I think you seem like a pretty aware person and that you can probably pick up on signs that someone is interested in talking, talking to you. Right. And it might be just as likely that that person is at this group to meet people like you are, because they could be mountain biking alone and it might feel really good for them. If someone does reach out to them and say, I want to connect with you more. Because we like people that we think like us. That's what makes someone likable. They show that they like people, and initiating is really a way to do that.

[Steven]

Yeah. So the people that I've met in my life, who. And I think there's a term for them of mavens, or the people who just have a natural ability to connect, make other everyone else feel comfortable and just get conversation going. And those characteristics are hard for me to express. Like, I'm not the one to initiate even, like, organizing the group when someone else is organizing. Great, I'll take along. I'm not usually the one to put myself out there in the sense of, okay, this is what I'm doing. Whoever wants to join, come join.

[Dr. Marissa G. Franco]

Yeah. Well, I would say to hold that identity really lightly. Right. Because not being the initiator, being the person who goes along with the group, that doesn't have to be part of who you are, even if it's who you've been and you're finding yourself in a new situation, and that tends to bring out new sides of us. And it sounds like you'd be really happy if you were able to create more of those connections. And I think sometimes when you hold an identity too strongly, it can estrange you from your own sense of self because you're ignoring, oh, I actually want something different now. Like, I want to be able to have more control over my social interactions. And so I get this a lot with introverts in particular, where they're like, I can initiate, I'm an introvert, but it's actually more of a skill set than a part of who you are. I think you totally could do something different than you have before, and it might even really benefit you. Is that something that you feel open to?

[Steven]

Yeah, absolutely. I think it's funny that at work, if I'm project managing, you know, I am taking charge. I am organizing everything. I am reaching out to people I don't know and doing stuff. And it's odd that in a social situation that. That switches. But, yeah, I think it's not hard to apply that same skill set to a social situation and just kind of organize stuff and put things together.

[Mike Pesca]

That's usually the advice for someone who says, I can't. It's some version of, no, you can. But also then it's a little deeper, which is, I can't because I'm this kind of person. And then the advice is, well, you don't have to be that kind of person, or you don't think of yourself as that kind of person. So what I want to ask you, Dr. Franco, is do you actually believe in these strong personality traits, like introvert, extrovert person who is comfortable in groups, isn't. Can make friends, can't make friends, or do you think that they're more categories we place on ourselves than are actually apt descriptors of how we navigate the world?

[Dr. Marissa G. Franco]

Well, I just think while those can be present across different settings or tend to be present, they're not cemented. And in psychology, we talk about, we have traits and we have states, right? So I could be a funny person as a trait, but at work, I'm not funny, right. Or with this friend, I'm not funny. And so we also need to allow ourselves the flexibility to not have this trait that we thought we have and that really allows us to know ourselves more fully. Right.

[Mike Pesca]

So does this act as if this is.

[Dr. Marissa G. Franco]

I like what Steven did, which is, you already are Steven. I mean, it's just applying who you already are in initiator skills you've already built and applying them within a new context.

[Steven]

I mean, that's the perfect project to initiate with retirement and trying to redefine how I operate around other people, how I organize with social situations, and. Yeah, just building that part of myself.

[Mike Pesca]

Dr. Franco, even if Steven does go to the mountain biking session or is in a situation with his friends, he's there. He's actually there. And if they did roll call, he would say present. But as you know, there's a difference between present and actually being present.

[Dr. Marissa G. Franco]

Well, I just want to say for the listeners, like, something we're talking about is, like, to make friends. You don't only have to overcome overt avoidance, where you're staying home and avoiding people, but also covert avoidance, where you show up physically and you check out mentally and you're on your phone or you're talking to the one person you already know, or you leave as quickly as possible. You have to engage with people when you get there. People often assume, if I join the social group, I'll make friends. But it's that real covert avoidance piece overcoming that of saying, hey, it's been so great to talk to you. Do you want to get a beer after maybe next time before we can get a beer. And the other thing I want to normalize for you, Steven, Is it's uncomfortable at first, right, to talk to someone you don't know that well. And oftentimes people think, okay, if it's uncomfortable, I shouldn't do it. Maybe this is wrong. This isn't right for me. But there's something called the mere exposure effect, which is this finding that the more exposed we are to each other, the more that we like each other. And so that discomfort is part of the process of connection instead of a sign that the connection isn't working. And so I would say embrace that discomfort of like, oh, I'm going to meet up with this random person. I don't know that well, because it gets more comfortable over time. And that's just kind of how we're wired. Rather than a sign that anything is wrong.

[Mike Pesca]

What about something like pivoting off the bike riding, which has its limitations to not just Haiti? You want to get a beer? But is there some way so that three or four people can go out together and have a beer or a social setting or a coffee?

[Dr. Marissa G. Franco]

What do you think of that, Steven?

[Steven]

No, I think that's just given the opportunities. It's kind of like a statistics game, right? How many chances do we take to have those interactions and build? Just create the opportunities for conversations to flow. Find new common connections outside of whatever brought you together initially.

[Mike Pesca]

I'm thinking something like on the bike trail, where you could turn to a few people and say, hey, I do this. You make this up. You know, it could be a lie. I do this trivia night. And if you guys want in, I don't know, but I do this thing, or there's a band at a pub, something. Is it okay if I use the addresses on the meet up list to, you know, invite a few of you to this thing and then maybe as you say that some people like, yeah, definitely. And now you're not on a bike trail single file. You're in a place that can facilitate more bonding. I don't know. I'm just coming. I'm just trying to do what I, as a person with way too many friends who's trying to call the herd of all these hangers on, might suggest. Is that good? Is there something in the literature, Dr. Franco, that backs that up?

[Dr. Marissa G. Franco]

Yeah, so there's this guy, Ryan Hubbard. He calls it repotting, which is varying the setting in which you interact. And it does tend to deepen our relationships. So I think if you can see these bike peak people in a new setting, your relationships are gonna be deepened.

[Steven]

And I like that concept. And this Is something that would be great to have other people join then. Exactly. Then I could bring that up in a conversation, put out the invitations and bring people together in other settings. But that's on me to create that, do the legwork to be prepared to do that.

[Dr. Marissa G. Franco]

Well, one thing I want you to consider, Steven, is what you've told me is that when you initiate, you're afraid of imposing, that you're making the other person uncomfortable. But when you receive, you're like, yay, new friends. And that is really a trend that people tend to have because our brains are wired for safety and that can get in the way of connection. And so often I tell people, like, instead of asking yourself, how would I come off if I do this? Ask yourself, how would it come off if someone else did this to me? And that's sort of a more accurate reflection of the truth that if you would like it, probably a lot of people there would like it too. Particularly these people that are there because they want to be in community with other people, because they're not biking alone.

[Steven]

Absolutely.

[Mike Pesca]

So there is another aspect of maybe what's going on in 2026 that I didn't raise before. We hinted at it. With low trust society, you know, not all conversations are going to land well. And so that does two things. One, there is the fear of a political conversation, or it doesn't even have to be political, just a view of the world having a strong objection. So that gets in your way of even expressing these views. And then two, it actually could happen. Right. And so there's more of a chance that there's a detonation. But on a bunch of friendships, are you seeing that actually happen more often, you know, are fraught, Let us say political or social times is showing up in people thwarting friendships.

[Dr. Marissa G. Franco]

I think it can be particularly hard at the beginning of a relationship because it causes us to do something called like labeling someone as an out group so that person's entire identity becomes represented maybe by their identity that's politically different than us and we don't see the rest of who they are versus like if you actually know someone a little bit more and then find out about their political identity. So unless some people, it's really important to them to find people that are values aligned and they want people that share their political identity. But if you're open, I would say wait, maybe wait a little while so that sort of in group out group thing doesn't start happening before you've been able to build a relationship again.

[Steven]

That's Something I'm usually conscious of is, you know, especially when you're first meeting people, what things can I bring up or can I not bring up? What is that blurry line? I would never try to. To go deep too fast. Right. But those deeper relationships are certainly what I would want to eventually cultivate. Right. So. And of course that happens better again in the smaller setting than it does in a large setting with a group of people, which kind of plays into like, if I can ask those questions to then invite somebody to a smaller setting where we then hang out, that creates an opportunity to have more in depth conversations about other topics and get to know them better.

[Mike Pesca]

Also, I would guess that your opinion range is somewhere in the moderate middle. 80%. Right. I mean, it might be harder for a flat earther who knows that if I get to. Then again, it might be easier. A lot of flat earth meetup groups might be harder for a flat earther to bond with, you know, the regular rest of us. Okay. Do you still have dogs, by the way?

[Steven]

I do. We still have to.

[Mike Pesca]

How about that? How? That's an avenue for friendship. Right. Are the dogs good with other dogs?

[Steven]

Hit or miss?

[Mike Pesca]

Yeah. Okay. Yeah, I had a dog and it didn't help friendship because he was a humper.

[Ryan Reynolds]

Yeah.

[Steven]

And we were more involved for a little while and again through my wife taking them out places and then just talking to people about dogs and stuff. But again, all very short conversations, all very topical. And again, I never felt like that was an avenue to say, let's go do something later. Right.

[Mike Pesca]

Of course it is. I think you are like Amazon eight years ago. You just haven't conquered the last mile. Yeah, right. Like you are putting yourself in a situation to succeed. It's just one or two mostly psychological things. Maybe some tactics of doing a little repotting, doing a little. What else? What else can he do besides repotting? To get these people who are ripe

[Dr. Marissa G. Franco]

to have a friendship with, Showing interest in people, initiating with them, expressing that you like people, Steven. Because I think sometimes when we're so self conscious, we're thinking about, okay, how are people treating me? Like, okay, do they like me? Do they value me? Are they open as interaction? And we don't think about how am I treating them, Am I showing them that I like them? Am I showing them that I value them? Am I initiating with them? Am I making them feel welcome? So I would say like, you know, what you like to receive and finding a way to align that more with what you're giving can really make you the friends that you're looking for.

[Steven]

Yeah, I could definitely do that. That would be a very good exercise for me to work on.

[Mike Pesca]

Yeah, I love talking to a scientist who's going to go through all these hypotheses now in the limited time we have left. I must ask you, Dr. Marissa G. Franco, does someone become a friendship expert because they are good at friendship naturally or not good at friendship?

[Dr. Marissa G. Franco]

I was honestly pretty mediocre. I became a friendship expert because I used to put romance so much higher than friendship. And I realized that I have these great friends and I'm not valuing them as such. And I think that's a problem that's really limiting me. And so I want it to be part of changing that. And people helping people view like platonic love is just as important as romantic love in their life.

[Mike Pesca]

Okay, I'll ask as leading a question as they get. But to put your friendships, your platonic relationships up higher, does that mean devaluing your romantic relationships?

[Dr. Marissa G. Franco]

Um, I don't think so. I mean, Steven, like. Cause it sounds like you already have these skill sets at work. For example, I'm sure that in your relationship with your wife, you know, you have to be intentional in some ways. Right. But what I hear from you in friendship, it's just sort of like I'm not, you know, I don't pick up the phone. I don't, you know, initiate, per se. I wait for people to come to me, and. And intimacy is intimacy. So what makes one kind of intimate relationship succeed kind of makes the other kind, right? That intention, that effort. And so it really is about just redistributing your skill set. To me, that's what it sounds like. Rather than you having to do something that's completely outside of your comfort zone. Because I feel like it sounds like you really already have what it takes, and it's just applying it to the world of friendship.

[Steven]

Yeah. It sounds so easy. And I hope it is.

[Dr. Marissa G. Franco]

I think you can do it.

[Mike Pesca]

Stephen, thank you so much.

[Steven]

Absolutely. Thank you both.

[Dr. Marissa G. Franco]

So good to meet you. Stephen, good luck.

[Mike Pesca]

Dr. Marissa G. Franco is a professor at the University of Maryland and author of Platonic how the Science of Attachment can help you make and keep friends. Thank you so much.

[Dr. Marissa G. Franco]

My pleasure.

[Mike Pesca]

If you like what you heard today, go to the podcast players that ask for reviews. And we do need your questions. Your questions that. That start with the words how to, like, how to make a great apology. We also have on hand experts. Like I said, we have an apology expert. He's ready to go we need the good apology that you need to make. Tell us something you've had a hard time apologizing for. Email us at how to ikepeska.com and today on my Daily show, the Gist I talk once again with Mike Schur, the creator the of the Good Place and Joe Posnanski, sports writer, on their combined book Big Fan about fandom. Here's Joe talking about Mike's favorite team, the Red Sox. Being a fan means being flexible. You know, I mean like things, things change. You know, I mean like being a Red Sox fan for many, many, many years is a whole lot different than being a Red Sox fan from 2004 to 2018. It's a lot different from being a Red Sox fan right now. Second Place Part of a great conversation. Join Us how to is produced by Jeff Craig and Cory Warra. Michelle Pesca puts the can do in How To. Charles Duhigg founded the show. We play it for him every week. The reaction?

[Steven]

My hearing ain't so good anymore, so

[Mike Pesca]

there's a lot of what, useful feedback. I'm Mike Pesca, back every week. Answering your questions of how to.

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