General Questions | S1E16 "Cupcake"

Summary

How We Made Your Mother: S1E16 "Cupcake" – Detailed Summary

Release Date: July 24, 2025
Hosts: Josh Radnor and Craig Thomas
Special Guest: Alex Lev

In this bonus episode of How We Made Your Mother, titled "General Questions," hosts Josh Radnor and Craig Thomas delve deeper into Episode 16, "Cupcake," by addressing listener and watcher questions. This episode offers an insightful exploration of character development, fan theories, and the intricate creative processes behind the beloved sitcom How I Met Your Mother (HIMYM).

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1. Introduction to General Questions

The episode begins with Josh Radnor and Craig Thomas introducing the concept of "General Questions," a recurring segment where they address inquiries from fans about specific episodes. Alex Lev, the co-producer, joins the conversation, highlighting the overwhelming number of questions received, especially concerning "Cupcake."

• Josh Radnor [00:27]: "These are questions about episode 16, Cupcake, which we covered in depth a few days ago. But we are here to delve deeper with watcher listener reader questions."

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2. Fan Theories and Clarifications

A significant portion of the discussion revolves around fan theories about whether the character Victoria was initially intended to be "the mother." Several listeners speculate on the series' narrative direction had it been canceled prematurely.

• Alex Lev [05:01]: "Fire Daughter Emily says, if the series were not to be picked up for another season, would Victoria have been the mother?"

• Craig Thomas [05:11]: "I think we didn't plan for Victoria to be the mother. If the show had been canceled after season one, we might have left it as a cliffhanger."

The hosts emphasize that while fans are free to interpret the show in various ways, there was no concrete plan to make Victoria the mother if the series had ended early.

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3. Character Choices and Feminism in Storytelling

Josh and Craig delve into the significance of Victoria’s character arc, particularly her decision to prioritize her career over a relationship with Ted. They discuss how this choice breaks traditional romantic narratives, highlighting the show's progressive approach to female characters.

• Josh Radnor [01:30]: "Too often in stories with a romantic component, the highest aspiration for the woman is to partner off and to marry well. But Victoria showed that many people prioritize their careers."

• Craig Thomas [02:16]: "Victoria makes the same choice as Robin to prioritize her career, which adds a layer of feminism to the storytelling."

This segment underscores the show's commitment to portraying women as independent individuals with their own ambitions, challenging conventional TV tropes.

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4. The Creative Process: Conscious vs. Unconscious Writing

The hosts explore the dynamics between conscious planning and the subconscious influences in writing. They draw parallels to literary figures like Ernest Hemingway and filmmakers like Stanley Kubrick, who often resisted over-explanation of their works.

• Craig Thomas [13:37]: "Hemingway's point was, I don't always know what I'm writing. Let me just follow some of these ideas."

• Josh Radnor [14:12]: "When you talk to writers in fictional spaces, the characters start leading you, and you feel like you're being used by something bigger."

This discussion highlights how organic creativity often leads to richer, more authentic storytelling, where unplanned elements can add depth and resonance.

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5. Deep Dive into "Cupcake" Episode Themes

"Cupcake" serves as a microcosm of HIMYM's broader themes, encapsulating timing, ambition, love, and missed opportunities. The episode addresses Marshall and Barney's conflicting principles regarding career choices, reflecting the real-life struggles of balancing personal values with professional aspirations.

• Craig Thomas [19:40]: "Barney would be the guy saying, yes, come towards me, come towards the suits, come towards the money. And Marshall has these high-minded, lofty ideals."

• Alex Lev [24:05]: "A great question from Brian Naar points out how much of the whole series is in 'Cupcake'."

The hosts agree that "Cupcake" not only advances key plotlines but also mirrors the ensemble's collective journey through their late 20s, grappling with adulthood's multifaceted challenges.

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6. Writing for Television vs. Film

Josh Radnor shares his experiences transitioning from television to film writing, emphasizing the differences in narrative structure and the permanence of creative decisions in movies compared to the flexible, evolving nature of TV series.

• Josh Radnor [20:48]: "In a movie, it's so much tighter, you know, 90 minutes, 120 minutes, like you've really got to have things become very consequential."

• Craig Thomas [22:00]: "With 22 episodes a year for multiple years, it's a big canvas to try stuff."

This segment provides valuable insights into the distinct storytelling approaches required for different mediums.

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7. The Essence of Storytelling in HIMYM

The episode concludes with reflections on how individual episodes often encapsulate the entire essence of the series. Josh likens HIMYM to a hologram, where each part reflects the whole, ensuring that every episode resonates with the central themes of love, timing, ambition, and personal growth.

• Josh Radnor [25:13]: "The whole show is contained in the part. Anytime you have like a mystery, a kind of recognition and reversal at the end, it defies your expectations."

• Craig Thomas [26:15]: "This was what we booked the actress for. That's how we planned it out."

This holistic view underscores the show's intricate planning and the seamless integration of its core themes across all episodes.

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8. Notable Quotes

• Josh Radnor [00:00]: "Foreign. Well, hello. Welcome to a bonus episode of how we made your mother."

• Craig Thomas [14:36]: "The man is just a man. The fish is just a fish."

• Josh Radnor [10:21]: "The weather's been confusing in New York, right?"

• Alex Lev [22:36]: "A little time in Mallorca where I was in Deya, the only town I was in."

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9. Conclusion and Insights

This episode of How We Made Your Mother serves as a testament to the enduring legacy of HIMYM. Through thoughtful discussions, the hosts and guest Alex Lev offer a profound understanding of the show's character dynamics, thematic depth, and the creative processes that made it a cultural phenomenon. By addressing fan questions and dissecting pivotal moments like "Cupcake," the podcast provides both nostalgic reflections for long-time fans and insightful narratives for new listeners.

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Additional Resources:

• Subscribe: Follow, rate, and review the show on Apple Podcasts or your preferred podcast platform.
• Website: Visit howwemadeyourmother.com for the Substack mailing list, social media links, and merchandise.
• Support: Check out the "Make a Difference" tab to contribute to congenital heart disease research.

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This summary encapsulates the essence of the "General Questions" episode of How We Made Your Mother, offering a comprehensive overview for both dedicated fans and newcomers.

Transcript

[Josh Radnor]

Foreign. Well, hello. Welcome to a bonus episode of how we made your mother. These episodes, we are referring to them, of course, as general questions. General questions was okay.

[Craig Thomas]

It was okay.

[Josh Radnor]

It was good.

[Craig Thomas]

We'll allow it.

[Josh Radnor]

We're getting better.

[Craig Thomas]

I'll allow it.

[Josh Radnor]

This is the. These are questions about episode 16, Cupcake, which we covered in depth a few days ago. But we are here to delve deeper with watcher listener reader questions. I don't know how to describe it. We got a lot of great questions. You were. You were impressed with this batch, right, Alex?

[Alex Lev]

We did. We got a lot of them. We got a lot of them very quickly. I asked for them 12 hours ago, and they flooded in. The first one is claims to not be a question, and it's not. But it's a great topic of conversation. High chance of. I'm sorry, is Polish and Polish spelled the same way?

[Josh Radnor]

They are spelled the same way one's capitalized.

[Alex Lev]

We're going to. I know, but it's a name, so I'm going to go with Polish. High chance of Polish. Probably says not a question, but I'm so glad Victoria went to the fellowship. Too many shows have the woman giving up all for a dude she's known only for a short period of time. Go, Victoria, for putting yourself first.

[Craig Thomas]

Yeah, Amen. That's right.

[Josh Radnor]

You know, I remember when we had the Robin Shcherbatsky, Kobi Smulders love medley of people, there were a few people who said, I love that she put her career first. I love that she showed. She prized the eye, like we were talking about over the week. And I think too often in stories with a kind of romantic component, the highest aspiration for the woman is to partner off and to marry well. But that's not true for a lot of people. Not just, you know, for all kinds of people. Like certain people really want to have their career ducks in a row, and that's the most important thing. And they can't even consider partnering off until they have that aligned. So I'm glad that you didn't fall into that kind of thing.

[Craig Thomas]

Yeah. And I like that that's the moment that Robin and Victoria bond in the episode is when is when Victoria says, this is my career versus relationship. And Robyn kind of comes to life and says, I get that. Because that's why Robin's not with Ted. Right. I mean, her aspirations for a career took priority at 27 years old or however old they are. That makes a lot.

[Josh Radnor]

That's not wrong, necessarily, in macro and micro ways, because in the Macro way, yes, she wants to focus on it, but even not going to the wedding, which is why she literally. She chose work, and she will always.

[Craig Thomas]

Choose work, literally, that choice. And Victoria makes the same choice. And I like the kind of the feminism of those choices, and I'm glad that that came across. It's true. A lot of people said they love. They love that about Robin's character, and we see it in Victoria, too. And Victoria's clearly ambitious. She, you know, she has her own bakery. She's. She wants to go take this opportunity to learn more and to, like, elevate her career. And she. Yeah, she makes that choice. And in a sense, it creates chaos for her and Ted. But that's okay. They're in their late 20s and they're not married yet. They've been together like a couple months. And, yeah, I think it was very realistic for her to make that choice. I'm glad they came across.

[Alex Lev]

This goes to a bigger question about the fact that we're doing this podcast, that you have the chance to interact with fans who have been talking and thinking about this show for do the math. 20 or 10 years without your input. Right. There's just. So you have the fan, the great fan fiction and the Internet rumor mill. And I have a meta question above all these, which is, what do you think for both of you? I don't want to say what your role is, but you have this power now. You have this power to dispel rumors. You have this power to support fan fiction. And is there value in telling fans, no, that's not true. Or that is true. So as that noodles in your head, let me just show you how I got to that. Here's a delightful series of the spectrum of rumors. Fire Daughter Emily says, if the series were not to be picked up for another season, would Victoria have been the mother? Mana Vatyana says, is it true that Victoria was planning to be the mother initially, or is that just a fan theory? And finally, James Schmosby says it's been confirmed for a while that if the series ended here, Victoria would have wound up as the mother. So I guess speak to that.

[Josh Radnor]

Leave it to Schmosby to be like, it's been confirmed. Let me step in.

[Craig Thomas]

Some schmoes planning happening there. Yeah.

[Alex Lev]

So what do you think about all that?

[Craig Thomas]

I think I don't want to correct anyone's creative theory or narrative theory or what it meant to them. Like, I think. I think this whole process is realizing how this show belongs to other people. This show belongs to the world. Now we made this thing we put out in the world. It's been out for 20 years, season one and 20 years, basically. I think I don't want to correct anyone's theories or feelings. People, they, you know, that's, that's subjective. But we know we didn't plan. That's just a factual question. Were we planning for her to be the mother and had some well developed contingency plan for if we got canceled at the end of season one? No. The show was doing well enough that we didn't think we were going to be canceled at the end of season one. And we never had some big thought out plan for what we would do. Honestly, if they'd canceled us at the end of season one, would we have scrambled to wrap it up and been like, victoria's the mother? I think we would have been so pissed off and heartbroken that we would have been like, fuck you, it's a cliffhanger. Never find out.

[Josh Radnor]

You have to do a TV movie with us to wrap it up.

[Craig Thomas]

Yeah, you got to. Yeah, come on. You got to give us the right, the right way to do it. And the right way to do it is hopefully many, many years.

[Josh Radnor]

Do you guys remember being in like, high school or college English lit classes? And you start breaking down like, you know, Melville, you know, doing all this symbolism and all, and it starts to feel like, did he mean that? Like, did he really mean all of that?

[Craig Thomas]

No.

[Josh Radnor]

And at some point, you have to get to the fact it's like you're writing on some level, you're writing consciously, but there's all this unconscious stuff. Like you're even noticing Craig as we watch this, like, oh, my God, that was a rhyme from this. But I don't know that we consciously meant to do that.

[Craig Thomas]

So stuff happens.

[Josh Radnor]

Stuff comes from, for instance, like the color theory that all these fans have about, what is it? Like, Robin has a color, and I don't remember exactly what it was, but that was not something that you guys intended. You didn't have a color chart in the, the room. There wasn't a, a dictate from you and Carter. Like, here's the color scheme. Yeah, but the fans have scooped enough compelling evidence that it's a runner through the show.

[Craig Thomas]

Yeah.

[Josh Radnor]

And that's people's unconscious, like, working. So I think there's, there's a lot of things going on in, in creation, but certainly in this thing that we all made together, where your conscious mind is doing one thing, your unconscious is up to something else. And the Unconscious, I think, works in a little more of like dream logic. That's why things like colors and symbols are a little more unconscious realm. But I think that, you know, you could actually say you could dispel a rumor, but that doesn't mean it's not true.

[Craig Thomas]

Some of it's there, some of it's just there. And it was just themes that emerged because we were just chasing these artistic ideas. And I think stuff does come out. I think so much of art is from the subconscious. Right. I mean there is this kind of dream state. And the characters, the best stuff is when the characters are leading you and you feel like they're real people. I feel like you have to do a show for nine years, you have to enter into a state of delusion that is like, these are real people. I care about them as deeply as I care for real people. And I'm going to follow them, I'm going to let them lead. And I think Carter and I and the writing staff kind of went all in on this kind of shared delusion that these were real people, they really mattered. We celebrated the holidays with these people. We cried for these people, we laughed for these people. And stuff does come out of that.

[Josh Radnor]

The more, you know, characters as a writer, the more they start saying, I don't want to do that.

[Craig Thomas]

Oh yeah.

[Josh Radnor]

Or I do want to do that. Or take me here, wait there. Yeah.

[Craig Thomas]

That surprise you?

[Josh Radnor]

I had this incredibly somewhat mystical experience writing my second film, Liberal Arts, where it's a 35 year old guy that I played who was an alumni of this college and he goes back to his college and he, he has, he's intrigued by this 19 year old sophomore and they fall into this not quite romance, but certainly they're intrigued by each other. They start writing letters to each other. And I kept trying to write something that was just a little more edging them into the physical. And something in me was like, like something wouldn't let me do it.

[Craig Thomas]

Yeah.

[Josh Radnor]

And, and, and paying attention to the part of me that wouldn't let that happen was what led to the third act of the movie, which, which I think is really right.

[Craig Thomas]

Yeah.

[Josh Radnor]

And, and, and really there was something in me that was keeping. And it wasn't like I wanted to write a full blown romance. It wouldn't even let me do like the smallest kind of stuff. So I really had to honor that. And I think, I think it's. When you talk to writers in fictional spaces, most of them, I think, or I don't want to speak, but a lot of them will say, yeah, the characters took over at a certain point, and that's when writing becomes really fun because you feel like you're being used by something bigger than your own conscious mind. And I wrote you this little ditty to sing to you in New York City. The weather's been confusing in New York, right?

[Craig Thomas]

Very confusing.

[Josh Radnor]

No idea. Take an umbrella. Don't take an umbrella. What jacket?

[Craig Thomas]

Yellow umbrella? No yellow umbrella. It's a whole thing.

[Josh Radnor]

So the Mrs. Is that what I call my wife these days?

[Craig Thomas]

The Mrs. Oh, my God. I've never heard you use that term. Is it 1953 already?

[Josh Radnor]

I think so.

[Craig Thomas]

Little woman.

[Josh Radnor]

The little lady. I'm gonna take her overseas.

[Craig Thomas]

Really? This is. This is also very old timey speak, by the way. Overseas?

[Josh Radnor]

Yeah.

[Craig Thomas]

Are you gonna take a steamer cruise?

[Josh Radnor]

Well, we're gonna. Whatever. I'm gonna wear a three piece suit on the plane, I'll tell you that much. I dress up for travel.

[Craig Thomas]

The twin prop plane.

[Josh Radnor]

Yeah, yeah, yeah. We're going to Fantasy Island. No, we're. We're considering. Tell it. Tell me what you think about these. These destinations. We're considering Portugal. Have you ever been to Portugal?

[Craig Thomas]

I've never been. I hear it's amazing.

[Josh Radnor]

Okay.

[Craig Thomas]

I have nothing to offer you, though. All I can say is it's amazing.

[Josh Radnor]

Maybe a little. Little time in Mallorca where I was in Deya, the only town I was in. But Mallorca is beautiful places, beaches, Sardinia. Do you know anything about Sardinia?

[Craig Thomas]

See, that's cool. Has she. Has. Has the missus been to Mallorca? Has the Mrs. Been there? Because it's nice to take her somewhere, you know, a little bit, and you take her around.

[Josh Radnor]

Well, I only know this one town, but we might do a couple days with friends, maybe in Mallorca, and then pop over to this little sleepy beachside place in Portugal and then spend a couple days in Lisbon and then headed home.

[Craig Thomas]

Okay, I'll come. This is all leading to you asking me to come?

[Josh Radnor]

This is awkward.

[Craig Thomas]

Or is this.

[Josh Radnor]

This was not.

[Craig Thomas]

Is there another motive to this conversation?

[Josh Radnor]

No, I just wanted to hash it out with you. It's my friend.

[Craig Thomas]

But now I have really uncomfortable.

[Josh Radnor]

Now you have to say stop. Stop inviting yourself on my vacations with my wife. It's just there's only space on the. On the steamer for me and the missus.

[Craig Thomas]

Okay, fine, fine, fine. Well, you know what? Listen to this though. I have an idea. Even though you completely iced me out just now and kind of broke my heart on camera while it's being recorded. I will say this much. What is happening at to your place while you're away?

[Josh Radnor]

What do you mean? My place is just sitting here, just collecting dust and cobwebs.

[Craig Thomas]

Just sitting there.

[Josh Radnor]

Yeah.

[Craig Thomas]

Josh, you are missing a huge opportunity here, my friend.

[Josh Radnor]

Really? Tell me.

[Craig Thomas]

Huge opportunity. Two opportunities. One is inviting me along on the vacation. Opportunity. Two is, while you're away, you could make a little extra cash by hosting your place on Airbnb.

[Josh Radnor]

I. That sounds like a great idea. The former one. About you coming with us. I'm not. I'm not so fond of.

[Craig Thomas]

Okay, well, maybe I'll Airbnb your place while you're away so I'll at least feel close to you. Oh, how about that?

[Josh Radnor]

Would you use a fake name? Would you. Would you. Would you come in with, like, a bad mustache and wig?

[Craig Thomas]

Yeah. Not. Not Craig Thomas.

[Josh Radnor]

I know that's you.

[Craig Thomas]

That's my. That's my alias. Is not Craig Thomas.

[Josh Radnor]

Greg Thomas.

[Craig Thomas]

Greg Tomas.

[Josh Radnor]

Yes.

[Craig Thomas]

From Portugal.

[Josh Radnor]

Well, your home might be worth more than you think. Find out how [e-mail] host.

[Alex Lev]

I read.

[Craig Thomas]

A quote from Hemingway recently where he was talking about Old man and the Sea, and it was just this very, like, prickly quote, because everyone tried to interpret the way, you know, he goes, this old fisherman has nothing, but he goes out and he catches huge fish. And then he's got to get this huge fish back to land, and the fish is picked apart as he goes by other fish. And it's sort of like everyone has a theory about what it means about the futility of life, or it's a religious metaphor, whatever it is. And he just sort of. He had some quote that was like, the man is just a man. The fish is just a fish.

[Josh Radnor]

The cigar is just a cigar.

[Craig Thomas]

The ocean is just the ocean. I wrote this story about an old fisherman. He catches a fish, he tries to get it back to land, and he can't. And he's, of course, being a little tongue in cheek when he says that Hemingway is. Because, of course, it meant something more to him. Everything means something more. Anything. You take that much time to dig that deep and write, whether it's How Met yout Mother or Ernest Hemingway, it does have a deeper meaning. But I think his point there is, I don't always know what I'm writing. Shut up. Just let me write. Let me just fucking, like, follow some of these ideas. Let's not overthink it. Let's see what comes out and honor that.

[Josh Radnor]

Well, it's also kind of like his job is to write that story. Our job is to obsess over it, pick it apart, find what the metaphor is, relate it to our own own lives. It also kind of reminds me of when Jon Stewart was at the height of his kind of Daily show fame during the. The Bush years. The more he insisted that he was just a comedian and not to be taken seriously, the more people took him seriously as a journalist, he couldn't. The more he tried to kind of pull himself off that pedestal, the more people wanted to prop him up on it.

[Alex Lev]

Stanley Kubrick, also prickly.

[Craig Thomas]

Also, like I do a new question. Stanley Kubrick has a question he.

[Alex Lev]

He obviously always, obviously, constantly asked, especially about 2001. What does it mean? This and that. And I believe it's him who said, if I knew it, it meant I wouldn't have to make it.

[Craig Thomas]

Well, that's it, right? They say the best art is asking questions, not answering them. And I think that that's true. That's true. Because there aren't answers. There are questions, and there are attempts at answers. And the attempts at answers are art. And sometimes the art has several answers baked in or guesses or better. Maybe those are better words for it. But I think honoring the mystery of that and then also acknowledging that there can be more rhyme and reason to that mystery than you think. You can create things that have a structure that you see later, I think, too, which is interesting.

[Alex Lev]

Another couple of questions that I want to give an umbrella to, which is. I'll ask them, and I'll explain. Kaylee, Pop Mama says, was it hard to let Victoria go as a character at this point? She's so fantastic, and their meet cute is so much fun. And then the. David Robb asks, how long did it take before you realized it would be fun to have Marshall and Barney work together to expand that out, if I could, a little bit. To both of you as writers, when you make a. Especially on a television show, I guess. Well, movies also, when you make a small decision on a Thursday in the writer's room, hey, let's have them work together. Like, there's the back of your brain that has to be going, hold on. Is that. Is that gonna. We have to. We have. That's now. That's now true. So now we have months, maybe years that we just have to accept that we made this one decision here on a Tuesday. And Josh, you for writing films, you make one little decision now that stays. Well, now you've got a couple of years. You're gonna make this film. You're Gonna post this film. You're gonna work with this film. And, you know, we've. We've. We've collaborated on some things, and when you come up, when you know something is right, you're always open to more stuff to happen to you later. But you just have this. No, this is right now. This is where we're going. So I want to expand these questions out to short. Tell me about Victoria and her leaving and tell me about Marshall and Barney. But can you describe the moment of. Yep, we got it. This is what we're going to do now.

[Craig Thomas]

Well, two quick answers, because those are just easy to answer quickly. I definitely wish we had more Victoria before she went away. She was so great. But you book. You plan things out ahead of time, right? And she turned out to be so delightful. When I watched the episode last night or before our main episode that came out Monday, about it, I will say I found myself wishing. I wish this was one of those 24 episode seasons, because we were 22 episodes this season. And in other seasons when we were a bigger hit, they would give us two extra episodes for 24. If we'd had two more, I would have had two more fun. I think Carter would agree with this. I bet we would have had two more fun episodes where they were just together, where Victoria and Ted. Because it only helps what comes, right, if they're more together and the drama later plays better. If there was more fun to be had before, we had to send her up to Germany. But it's just sort of. That's what we booked the actress for. That's how we planned it out. That's how many episodes we had, et cetera, et cetera, et cetera. But yes, I did find myself thinking we could add a couple more fun ones, just with her hanging out because she's so great. And then Barney and Marshall. I think what I like about that storyline in Cupcake is it's another kind of question of your late 20s, which is not related to dating or love. It's, what are my principles in my career? What are my principles in my career? Am I going to try to be the good guy and do the right thing and make no money and work for the NRDC and try to save the environment and not sell out and become a corporate lawyer? Or am I going to be seduced by wanting to make some money because now I'm an adult and I want to make money? And in this episode, Marshall and Lily get deeply in debt due to wardrobe choices. And I love that we started playing with that idea of getting seduced off your intended path as you get later into your 20s and you're really an adult now and exploring that. Barney would be the guy saying, yes, come towards me, come towards the suits, come towards the money. And Marshall has these high minded, lofty ideals and the clash of those two things. And Barney, Barney is such a great seducer, not just of women, but of Marshall, off of this path of the light side of things. And I really liked that. And yes, we knew we wanted Barney to be that voice of seduction and that sort of the challenge to Marshall's commitment to his high minded ideals.

[Josh Radnor]

It also reminds me of something, and I think I'd mentioned this earlier, but it was either Greg Malins or Jonathan Grof or someone who, you know, had a lot of years in writers rooms and he said, you know, a show is really kind of popping and, and has some heat to it. When you can take any two characters, put them in a scene and you can kind of, you can play with what happens. There's a dynamic at play that you're like. And I think you guys were still exercising. You're like, oh, we have this trick up our sleeve.

[Craig Thomas]

We can do this too. Yeah.

[Josh Radnor]

And I think there was like, there was a funny chemistry between Neil and Jason that was different than the chemistry between me and Neil, different than the chemistry between me and Jason. And it was just another speed on the bike that you were like, oh, we have this too.

[Craig Thomas]

You're watching us find it in real time in this episode. Yeah, yeah.

[Josh Radnor]

Regarding Alex, bigger question. I do think sometimes, and I try not to get too in my head about this because sometimes a decision you can make on like a Thursday afternoon in your script will prove to be quite consequential and it can actually lead you down a path that is, you know, it's going to be hard to unwind. And sometimes, like, I always send my scripts to Alec because he's such a brilliant guy around structure and stuff and sometimes he'll recommend something that I'm like, but that would require rewriting 75% of the script, you know, so I'll have to tell him sometimes, like, I like this, so don't, don't kill it. But, but there is a thing where I think you have a little more leeway in series television to kind of explore little crevices and maybe not go so deep into them. But we're just dipping over here. In a movie, it's so much tighter, you know, 90 minutes, 120 minutes, like you've really got to have things become very consequential. If you plant something in the first act, it's got to go off in the third.

[Craig Thomas]

We have a big canvas to paint on. With 22 episodes a year for multiple years. That is a big canvas to try stuff. It's very different than a movie. Boy, a movie is not a lot of real estate.

[Josh Radnor]

No, but you could also see that, you know, even though you wished Ashley could have been on more episodes than I do, too. Like, I don't know. She was on, I think 16 total. Like, if she hadn't been so good, she would have been on four. You know, like.

[Craig Thomas]

Right. Yeah.

[Josh Radnor]

Like, she was. She. And I maintain that this was not an easy show to guest star on. The five of us were, like, so particular. The energy of the five of us at that booth was very loud and strong. And for people who could really get in there and mix it up with us, I was always impressed with it. And Ashlee was certainly one of those.

[Craig Thomas]

Absolutely. She deserves so much credit.

[Alex Lev]

First of all, Josh, I will tell you here publicly, I'm always very honored when you ask for my help on anything. And I really enjoy the dynamic of my structure monkey architect Ted Bunsby brain. That part of Ted's brain doing that, and then finding your heart and your art and me knowing to go, all right, don't push on that anymore. That's coming from a deep place from him. But, yeah, I mean, the smallest details is Victoria. Does she make Bavarian pretzels or cupcakes? I mean, you just choose one thing. All of a sudden, cupcakes become an important part of her story. Just anything is going to. Hopefully not just. It won't happen to reverberate. This is storytelling. This is art with a through line. It should reverberate. And just that moment of going, we're doing this thing, and a mixture of, let's see where it goes versus, oh, and let's plan. Where it goes is also the fun part.

[Josh Radnor]

Yeah, well, it's also like, you. You as a writer, you go, okay, he's an architect.

[Craig Thomas]

Cool.

[Josh Radnor]

Architect's a cool job. And then you're like, wait, architect's a metaphor. He's trying to build his life. You know, she's a baker. She's making these confections. Oh, she's sweet. She's also building something. They're trying to build this thing together. It's not quite working. Like, you just start making all these connections, you know, based on these maybe haphazard, like, just, like, sure, she can be a baker.

[Craig Thomas]

Yeah. But then you look back at it and you go, wait, that added up in ways that. That worked, you know, even if some of it was haphazard.

[Josh Radnor]

Yeah. Yeah.

[Alex Lev]

So great question from Brian Naar, who. Who points out how much of the whole series is in Cupcake. And Josh, you talk about this a lot on the podcast of how so many of these just kind of show everything. Cupcake feels like the classic him dilemma. Timing, ambition, love and missed chances. Timing, ambition, love and missed chances. Was that part of what you saw as the emotional core of the series?

[Craig Thomas]

Yeah, I mean that big time.

[Josh Radnor]

That's a lot of it. Yeah, it's all of it.

[Craig Thomas]

These are people in their late 20s. And that was one of my favorite things with rewatching the episode. The money dilemma, the career dilemma for Marshall, the money dilemma for getting married. It kind of branched out of like, what's going to happen with Ted and this woman and became this like, Nexus, this, like this seven layer salad, if you will, of like so many different late 20s dilemmas. People trying to figure out who they are as adults. There's a lot of ways that shows up in life and it's not all dating in love.

[Josh Radnor]

And it's also. We've talked about this, but like, there's a lot of like micro macro stuff going on. It's almost like the whole show is a holographic. And the point of a holograph is like you pull out any part and the whole is contained in the part. And I feel like you could take any episode of How I Met yout Mother or a certain maybe strain of episodes, and you're like, the whole show. The whole series is in the pilot. The whole series is in. Drumroll, please. The whole series. Anytime you have like a mystery, a kind of what Aristotle calls a recognition and reversal at the end, you know, it defies your expectations.

[Alex Lev]

It.

[Josh Radnor]

You know, and it hits those four themes that this writer wrote in. There are just these episodes where there's a DNA to the show and it was the strain of it runs through the entire thing.

[Alex Lev]

Well, thanks again for hanging with us for general questions.

[Josh Radnor]

General questions.

[Craig Thomas]

That was a good.

[Alex Lev]

That was good. That was solid.

[Craig Thomas]

Thanks, everybody. Keep them coming.

[Josh Radnor]

I am guilty. Please acquit me. All sins are forgiven in New York City.

[Alex Lev]

How We Made youe Mother is hosted and executive produced by Josh Radner and Craig Thomas. The show was produced by me, Alec Lev, and our co producer is Doug Matica. Our audio producer and mixer is Alec, Alex Reeves at Point of Blue Studios. And our digital content producer, AKA Gen Z Master is Emily Blumberg. Artwork by John Morrow. Please follow, rate and review the show on Apple Podcasts or your podcast player of choice. It really does help the show. Our theme song is NYC by our own Josh Radner, with additional music by Craig Thomas and Andrew Majewski. Special thanks to Low Kennedy and Elliot Connors. Visit how we madeyourmother.com to sign up for our Substack mailing list and for links to our social media. You can also click on the contact page to send us an email or a voice message. Your stories and questions are an important part of the show. Want some merch? Click on the store link or go to howyougetyourmerch.com subscribe to Josh Radner's Muse Letters on Substack. Order Craig Thomas debut [e-mail] novel and you can subscribe to My Dead Father Society, also on Substack, to learn about how you make a difference, this show's ongoing campaign to raise money for congenital heart disease research. Check out the Make a Difference tab at the top of our website. This episode was made possible by the support of Backyard Ventures. People will, in fact dance.

[Josh Radnor]

The real question it just hit me. Am I in love with you or just New York City.