General Questions | S1E19 "Mary the Paralegal"

Summary

How We Made Your Mother
Episode: General Questions | S1E19 "Mary the Paralegal"
Release Date: August 14, 2025
Hosts: Josh Radnor and Craig Thomas

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Introduction

In this special bonus episode of How We Made Your Mother, hosts Josh Radnor and Craig Thomas delve into the intricacies of the "Mary the Paralegal" episode from How I Met Your Mother (HIMYM). This episode serves as an exploration of the creative processes, character development, and thematic elements that have cemented HIMYM's place in pop culture. Joined by co-host Alec Lev, the trio navigates through fan questions, behind-the-scenes anecdotes, and insightful discussions that offer both longtime fans and newcomers a comprehensive understanding of what makes HIMYM resonate so deeply.

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Overview of "Mary the Paralegal"

"Mary the Paralegal," written by Chris Harris, stands out as a memorable episode due to its blend of humor and heartfelt moments. The hosts highlight how this episode captures the essence of the show's ability to balance comedic elements with emotional depth, particularly through the interactions and developments of the main characters.

Craig Thomas reflects, “Mary the Paralegal is a super funny episode with some real touching moments,” emphasizing the episode's duality in delivering both laughs and genuine emotional connections.

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Catchphrases and Writing Process

A central focus of the discussion revolves around the iconic catchphrase "lawyered," a term that became synonymous with HIMYM's witty dialogue. Alec Lev brings up an intriguing fan question: "Who came up with 'lawyered'? It became such a great HIMYM catchphrase."

Craig Thomas admits, “I can't remember if it was me, Carter, or Chris,” revealing the collaborative and often spontaneous nature of the writing process. This uncertainty underscores the organic synergy between the writers, where jokes and catchphrases emerge fluidly through brainstorming sessions.

Josh Radnor draws a parallel to his own experiences co-writing songs with Ben Lee, likening their collaborative efforts to a “Mobius strip” where ideas seamlessly intertwine and evolve without clear boundaries. This metaphor highlights the interconnectedness and continuous flow of creativity that fuels both songwriting and scriptwriting.

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Character Naming and Inspirations

The hosts delve into the origins of the characters' last names, revealing personal connections and tributes to real-life friends. Craig Thomas shares the story behind Marshall Eriksen's last name, inspired by their mutual friend Noah Garrison, an environmental lawyer. This personal touch adds depth to Marshall's character, grounding him in a reality reflected in the creators' own lives.

Josh Radnor adds humor to the discussion by recounting their attempt to involve Buzz Aldrin, the famed astronaut, as Lily Aldrin's grandfather. Although the pitch didn't materialize, Craig Thomas fondly remembers their creative brainstorming, stating, “We thought we would reveal that Lily's grandfather was Buzz Aldrin and cast him to be on How I Met Your Mother as Lily's grandfather.” This anecdote not only showcases their ambition but also their commitment to infusing the show with unique and memorable character backstories.

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Telepathic Communication and Acting Techniques

A significant portion of the episode examines the innovative use of telepathic conversations between characters, particularly how Lily can hear Marshall's thoughts. Alec Lev inquires about the arrival of telepathic communication in this episode, praising its authenticity and effectiveness.

Craig Thomas responds, “My favorite moment of this is that Lily really hears Marshall's thoughts. It's a supernatural element that actually happened.” This creative decision adds a layer of intimacy and realism, reflecting the deep bond between the characters.

The hosts also discuss the acting techniques utilized to portray these internal thoughts. Craig Thomas remarks on the “extreme closeup of somebody's face” and the reliance on non-verbal cues to convey emotions and thoughts, stating, “It's almost like the purest expression of cinematic acting, which is when the audience understands the thoughts of the character without them having to say a word.” This approach emphasizes the importance of subtlety and visual storytelling in enhancing character development and audience engagement.

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Themes: Perception and Communication in Relationships

Addressing a poignant fan question from Yasmin Zekri, the hosts explore the episode's theme of miscommunication and its impact on relationships. The question posed was: "How much damage do we do to our relationships when we make assumptions instead of asking the hard questions? And why is pretending always easier than being vulnerable?"

Josh Radnor brings in external insights, referencing an article from Substack that cautions against allowing movie logic to dictate real-life interactions. He states, “The author was saying... most plots in a movie are because people won't have hard conversations or uncomfortable conversations.” This reflection ties back to HIMYM's portrayal of characters who often bypass direct communication, leading to misunderstandings and emotional strain.

Craig Thomas adds a personal touch, sharing his own experiences with uncomfortable conversations and their liberating effects. He connects this to the show's narrative, where characters resort to telepathy as a means to avoid honest dialogue, highlighting the tension between convenience and authenticity in human interactions.

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Use of Brands and Homages

The episode also touches upon the subtle use of brands and cultural references within HIMYM. Alec Lev points out the presence of a VHS tape of Mad TV during the Yosemite Sandy scene, questioning whether it was an homage or a mere coincidence.

Craig Thomas clarifies, “That's a prop coincidence.” However, he delves deeper into the creative inspiration behind certain gags, such as adding mustaches to TV screens, which was borrowed from real-life anecdotes shared by Chris Harris's wife, Hillary. This practice of incorporating personal and cultural references enriches the show’s authenticity and relatability.

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Insights into the Writing Process

Throughout the episode, the hosts shed light on the collaborative nature of writing for HIMYM. Craig Thomas emphasizes the importance of being receptively inspired by real-life experiences and memories, stating, “It’s admissions in court… 80% being being a sponge.” This approach allows the writers to infuse genuine emotions and scenarios into the script, making the characters' experiences resonate more deeply with the audience.

Josh Radnor adds that recalling and integrating these details at the right moment is crucial, ensuring that the storytelling remains fluid and impactful. This meticulous attention to detail is a testament to the show's enduring appeal and the creators' dedication to crafting meaningful narratives.

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Final Remarks and Listener Interaction

As the episode concludes, the hosts address additional listener questions and reflect on the episode's themes. They encourage fans to engage through social media and other platforms, fostering a community of shared appreciation and discussion around HIMYM.

Josh Radnor shares a personal anecdote about the importance of vulnerability and clear communication, tying it back to both the show and real-life experiences. Craig Thomas humorously admits to having difficult but necessary conversations, illustrating the episode’s central message through their own lives.

The episode wraps up with a tease for future content, including upcoming moments for co-host Alec Lev, and emphasizes the collaborative spirit that defines How We Made Your Mother.

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Notable Quotes

• Craig Thomas: “Mary the Paralegal is a super funny episode with some real touching moments.” [02:21]
• Alec Lev: “Everyone's in sync. Ted, Marshall. Marshall and Lily.” [12:09]
• Josh Radnor: “It's a great question to ask of an actual expert.” [18:36]
• Craig Thomas: “It's almost like the purest expression of cinematic acting, which is when the audience understands the thoughts of the character without them having to say a word.” [15:42]

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Conclusion

This detailed exploration of "Mary the Paralegal" offers listeners a multifaceted understanding of HIMYM's storytelling prowess. By dissecting character development, thematic depth, and creative processes, Josh Radnor and Craig Thomas provide invaluable insights into what makes HIMYM a beloved and enduring series. Through engaging dialogue and thoughtful analysis, the episode not only celebrates the show's legacy but also invites fans to appreciate the nuanced craftsmanship behind every episode.

For more discussions and analyses, visit howwimedyourmother.com and join the conversation on their social media platforms.

Transcript

[Martha]

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[Unknown]

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[Josh Radnor]

Paid for by Electronic Payments Coalition.

[Craig Thomas]

Hello.

[Josh Radnor]

Welcome to a very special bonus episode of How We Made youe Mother. I'm Josh Radner. I'm here with my friend Craig Thomas. Hi, Craig.

[Craig Thomas]

Hey, Josh.

[Josh Radnor]

Hey. We are doing an episode that we like to call General questions. General Questions. It was all right.

[Craig Thomas]

It was not that long.

[Josh Radnor]

We keep trying to sync up the salutes and it.

[Craig Thomas]

It's just not gonna happen.

[Josh Radnor]

I'll tell you why it's not working, just because we have the. Ever so slightly we have a delay on the. On the.

[Alec Lev]

Yeah, so but next time, I think our live show, when we do a.

[Craig Thomas]

Live show, let's do it right on a live show, please. We have to do a live show just for that one thing.

[Josh Radnor]

And let's hope that the audience syncs up with us. Like we should get however many people.

[Alec Lev]

Yeah.

[Josh Radnor]

We are discussing the television I Met your Mother which ran on CBS from 2005 to 2014. The episode under consideration this week, which we talked about a couple days ago, is Marry the Paralegal written by Chris Harris. That was episode 18, is that right? 1919. Mary the paralegal, episode 19. Nothing good happens after 2am Was episode 18? Yes, I think so. Okay, so this is. We'll see.

[Craig Thomas]

I've seen the show.

[Josh Radnor]

Someone will correct us for sure if we're wrong, but Marry the paralegal. Super funny episode with some real touching moments. But let's hear what people had to say about this episode, what they. What they want to go deeper on.

[Craig Thomas]

Yeah, what do you got for us, Alec?

[Alec Lev]

Well, many people pointed out, of course, a very important catchphrase and the Jenny Finn 22 wants to know who came up with lawyered. It became Such a great him catchphrase. Definitely one of my favorites.

[Craig Thomas]

Boy, I can't remember May. I don't know. Maybe it was me, maybe it was Carter. Maybe it was Chris. I don't. I can't remember. There's a lot. It's funny. There's certain jokes where I'm like, I can picture where the writer or I was when they pitched that joke, you know, or like, I remember I said half of that, but then that other person said that thing that made it even better. Like. And other ones where I'm like, I don't know. It's just one of those mysteries. I.

[Josh Radnor]

You know also when you're co writing like, Ben Lee and I wrote a bunch of songs together, made two albums together. There's a song of called down in the Dirt and it's one of. I came in with the chorus actually. But the rest of the song, it's quite an epic song. I remember the day we were sitting in my living room and I remember we caught a wave. We were just going back and forth and I don't remember who came up with what lyric at all in this song. I just know that we were constantly leapfrogging over the other person's idea, refining the other idea. And in some ways that's kind of evidence of a great collaboration is like I. It's a Mobius strip. Like, I don't know where one thing ends and the other begins.

[Craig Thomas]

Yeah. I think that's the dream and I think that's a kind of creative flow that it's like for writers room or a songwriting team gets into that. You like, don't. You almost don't want to question it. It's. I almost have magical thinking about it where it's like, you almost don't want to pick apart how it happened. It just happened.

[Josh Radnor]

But you know what's funny? Didn't you say that a bunch of lawyers have come up to you and said in law school they would sing to themselves being a lawyer head better.

[Craig Thomas]

Be awesome and say lawyered. We've had a bunch of lawyers say lawyers. I started saying, yeah, you don't have.

[Josh Radnor]

To be a lawyer to say lawyered, though. That's what's fun because it's a very democratized idea of like, you win an argument, you can just go lawyered, you know?

[Craig Thomas]

Yeah. Our good friend Noah Garrison was and is. You know, he was an environmental lawyer. He went to school for first geology, then law school, then combined them to be an environmental lawyer. And now he sort of teaches law at ucla. Through that lens and all, you know, in some ways, all of it goes back to basing the character on our good friend. I keep. I'm looking at Alec. I'm addressing this Alec as Noah. Is Alex, one of his oldest friends. Right. You went to elementary school with him and beyond.

[Alec Lev]

We went to daycare. Three. We were three.

[Craig Thomas]

And then I met you guys at Wesleyan. You both went to Wesleyan together. You guys did your entire education together. And then we honored Noah with the profession. Marshall's profession. And I was going to ask.

[Alec Lev]

I can't remember, is that where being a Lawyer Is that 100%?

[Craig Thomas]

I just took Noah's. I took Noah's. I hope I asked Noah's permission. I'm notorious for just telling people after I did these things and not remembering to ask them. But I think I asked Noah and certainly he was delayed it either way that it was. It was based on.

[Josh Radnor]

Do you know what's funny is sometimes you make these decisions like professions or even surnames. Right. That are kind of quick. You just like, that'll do. Right. Like Marshall's a lawyer or Ted's an architect or. I remember the day Ted had his last name. I remember from, I think, the pilot. But not everyone had their last name. Barney didn't have a last name. I don't know if anyone else had a last name, but I remember it.

[Craig Thomas]

Was Robin did, I think.

[Josh Radnor]

And you was on the news. Yeah, but you guys came in with the other three last names and kind of assigned them. And I remember one like, Barney Stinson sounded like strange. Like, it sounded like, I don't know. Is that right? But you named him after the Replacements. Which replacement?

[Craig Thomas]

The bass player of the Replacements. Tommy Stinson.

[Josh Radnor]

Tommy Stinson.

[Craig Thomas]

Carter. Huge Replacements fan. Carter Bayes, who made me into a huge Replacements fan. And Carter said, let's honor Stinson. Just a cool. Cool weird.

[Josh Radnor]

Yeah, it's a cool weird. Like, not super. Yeah. Erickson, Aldrin, these kind of. They all end in sun.

[Alec Lev]

They kind of do.

[Craig Thomas]

There's a. Clearly, we like that. That phoneme. That particular phoneme sound.

[Josh Radnor]

But they. But they. You might have made these. These assignments of names and occupations. You kind of can make them a little flippantly, like, even if it's a placeholder, and then suddenly, nine years on you. Lily Aldrin, Barney Stinson, Marshall Erickson. Like, they sound like properly famous people. There couldn't be another name.

[Craig Thomas]

And it's kind of funny because you're like, oh, there's just these made up names. Then you go, like, every other fucking name. It's all made up.

[Josh Radnor]

All of our names. That's right.

[Craig Thomas]

You know why we named Lily Aldrin Lily Aldrin?

[Josh Radnor]

Right? Was it Buzz Aldrin?

[Craig Thomas]

So Carter and I wrote multiple pieces for Buzz Aldrin. When we wrote for Dave Letterman, we did these pieces where we'd have Buzz Aldrin. It'd be like, astronaut on the roof, astronaut in a cab. And he would clearly, he would seem slightly deranged because he'd be, dave, I'm up here on the roof. Look what happens when I hit a golf ball. And you just hit a golf ball. And it would just sort of trickle off. Isn't that amazing? He thought he was on the moon. He just acted like. Everything was like, I'm holding up this pen. Watch what happens when I drop it. And the pen would just drop. And we did all these bits. And then it became this weird thing where we had him. We had Buzz Aldrin as the Late show correspondent for the Daytime Emmy Awards. And we went, Carter and I, with Buzz Aldrin dressed in astronaut. Dressed as an astronaut in full astronaut gear. We had to walk from Late Show, Ed Sullivan Theater to Radio City for the Daytime Emmy Awards, where, like, soap opera stars are being given awards. And he had a microphone, and he was on the red carpet in an astronaut outfit. And he was saying, like, hey, you know, are you proud to be nominated for Best Supporting actor on a daytime soap? And they'd be like, oh, yeah, it's my first nomination. I'm really proud. He'd be like, cool. I walked on the moon and just would give people shit that his achievement.

[Josh Radnor]

That's a real. That's the definition of a good sport right there.

[Craig Thomas]

Buzz Aldrin. Yeah. Yeah. That's really. You must be proud. I did walk on the moon, though. And it was just. And we had Buzz Aldrin as an astronaut doing just weird shit all the time. And so we thought to ourselves, when. And he was really good sport about it. And really. And he was funny. And we thought we would one day get him. We would reveal that Lily's grandfather was Buzz Aldrin and cast him to be on How I Met yout Mother as Lily's grandfather. And we pitched it and we asked it, and somehow it did. I don't. It was a polite pass. We thought we could call in our late show Goodwill, but we were a new enough show. Maybe he didn't know what it was.

[Josh Radnor]

He's like, I will not be humiliated.

[Craig Thomas]

I think he really enjoyed doing the weird stuff for Late show, but I don't know what happened. It didn't come together. And then we're like, well, it's a cool last name. Anyway, so she's Lily Aldrin.

[Josh Radnor]

Clearly, Buzz is in the family tree of Lily.

[Craig Thomas]

Yeah, he's somewhere.

[Josh Radnor]

I still believe he's.

[Craig Thomas]

We just didn't get it.

[Alec Lev]

Josh, I feel like you and I talked about this once. It was a script we were working on, whatever it was. The idea you write a character into a script and then you just cut them. And then, like, there's this feeling of, like, that's a whole actor. A whole actor just didn't get cast in that role and didn't get to be in that movie because you just went, nope. That's a weird. It's a weird amount of power. In those early days, like naming someone.

[Josh Radnor]

Oh, the first on camera job I got was this show called now and Again. There was a show called Once and Again and now and again, like in 1999 or 2000. It was the first on camera job I got. There were two roles that I was reading for, and I got the bigger role. Right, the bigger role. And they were gonna pay me, I think, $800 to do it at the time, a lot of money. And I woke up either the morning of doing it or the morning before, got a call from my agent and said, well, the rewrite came through, and that character's not in there. But she said, good news. They're still paying you. So I got the 800 bucks, but. But I was. I wasn't able to do it, you know? But, yeah, no, you. I mean, you become. You become the. What is the. The phrase from the Bhagavad Gita that Oppenheimer says? Like, I am. I am death. I'm.

[Craig Thomas]

What is it? Like, I am the destroyer. I did not foresee you bringing that exact.

[Josh Radnor]

But you become the master of this universe where, like, you can kill characters, you can resurrect them. You can. And also, when you add a character, you've just given an actor a day player.

[Craig Thomas]

Exactly. Create life. You also create life.

[Josh Radnor]

Yeah.

[Craig Thomas]

So create Aldrin's and Ericsson's instincts.

[Alec Lev]

Just as in the next episode. Craig, you created life. This is a preview for next Monday's episode.

[Craig Thomas]

Is this my cameo?

[Alec Lev]

No, this is my cameo.

[Craig Thomas]

No, this is your cameo. Oh, right, right, right. The next one. Forget about my cameo. Yes, yes, that's right. This is a teaser for Alex's big moment. Tune in on next Monday after this Right. This will be the Monday after this for Alex. Huge moment. All right, enjoy that.

[Alec Lev]

I just wanted to be able to get to talk about it over the.

[Doug Matica]

Course of two episodes, not just one.

[Josh Radnor]

Okay, is this gonna be the clip?

[Unknown]

And I wrote you this little ditty to sing to you in New York City.

[H]

Support for this podcast and the following message comes from America's Navy. The Navy offers new graduates hands on training and experience in careers like computer science, aviation and medicine. Plus education. And sign on bonuses. Parents, help your grads start their career [e-mail].

[Alec Lev]

Okay. Abhajai Prakash asks, please tell me about how you guys arrived with the idea of telepathic conversations. I love them. I believe them. I have them all the time with myself. I'm not sure if that's the same idea. I also believe this is the first episode to do that. Everyone's in sync. Ted, Marshall. Marshall and Lily. That letter is from Abby.

[Craig Thomas]

Josh and Alec and I are. We're all having a telepathic conversation right now, going, that's not telepathy. I said, isn't telepathy? No. Look, every friend group has telepathy, right? I, you know, it's just. And my. My favorite part of this, you can communicate, Right. With your eyes to a really close friend. You can make a bit. You can do a whole riff with somebody. Never say a word. My favorite moment of this is that Lily really hears Marshall's thoughts. I really love that there's a supernatural. We just break the rule. We say she actually is hearing these thoughts. It's not just. It really happened. That's my favorite moment.

[Martha]

Maybe.

[Josh Radnor]

Well, you know, also like when you're having that telepathy. I think it happens with couples a lot where you can't wait to get in the car afterwards to actually give voice to the telepathy you were having.

[Craig Thomas]

Yes. And be like, were we having that conversation? I knew. I knew it. Yeah. Yeah. That's the best. It's very satisfying. And it's. And that's the gift, right? That's the gift of a great partner, a great friend. And.

[Josh Radnor]

But it's also. I think we talked about this on the episode. But it's such a good. It's a hilarious bit. Like the opportunities to mine comedy. And you didn't go to the well too much. I don't think we overused it.

[Craig Thomas]

I think we could have used it more.

[Josh Radnor]

We could have used it more, to be honest.

[Craig Thomas]

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. I love it so much. It's such a weird shot too. Like the extreme Closeup of somebody's face, like, makes you realize, like, you don't go to those close ups for comedy very often. Right. Maybe it's very sort of soap operatic to be that tight on somebody's face in a TV show. And it's like, it's just bracing. It makes you lean forward and pay attention. And the fact that you're acting to your own voiceover. Josh would have pre recorded his voiceover and he's acting to his voiceover. As Pam pointed out that it really played great.

[Josh Radnor]

Worked, as I've mentioned before, as my biggest name drop. But I did this show Hunters with Al Pacino for two years and I had this big scene with him where he had a lot of dialogue and I was kind of coked up and spent on the floor, like on the bed listening to him.

[Craig Thomas]

And his character was.

[Josh Radnor]

Yeah, my character. No, no, my character wasn't. I'm talking about the way I came into the film. But we. I asked him, on either the day we were shooting or the day we were rehearsing, I said, how do you think of scenes where you're mostly wordless, where you don't have dialogue? How do you approach those scenes? And he said, never stop thinking. He said, the camera loves thought. So even if you're going over your grocery list, don't catch the camera. Don't have the camera catch you when you're blank. Always be thinking something because the camera loves watching thought. And there's something about those close ups where it's like it's film acting. Normally you don't get the closed caption or whatever, like the voiceover where it's telling you what the. But the comedy comes from. I'm acting out with my eyes and little eyebrow twitches and nostril flares and smirks or whatever of what the character's thinking. So it's almost like the purest expression of cinematic acting, which is. I asked a friend who's the director, what is great film acting? And he said, when the audience understands the thoughts of the character without them having to say a word.

[Craig Thomas]

Yeah. What great acting advice. And just thinking of Dog Day Afternoon, thinking of Pacino's great performances. He's never not alert in the movie. Like Dog Day Afternoon.

[Josh Radnor]

Oh, he's so much electricity behind the eyes.

[Craig Thomas]

Electricity behind his eyes. Yeah. It's a great acting node. Okay. Turns out he's good. He may be a good actor.

[Alec Lev]

I know that. Josh, you become friends with Rob Reiner. Do I have that correct? From some.

[Josh Radnor]

Yeah, yeah. I did a pilot with him the year before I did How I Met yout Mother. And we've stayed in touch over the years.

[Alec Lev]

So all in the Family. Check it out. It's the rare sitcom with serious close ups. Like serious close ups and drama close ups. It's very odd to see, but obviously it works.

[Craig Thomas]

Yeah, it does work. It's great.

[Alec Lev]

Okay, so many other things here. Here's just a little detail. People are interested in the use of brands on screen. Kenan99, says, I know brands will frequently be blurred out or covered up or redesigned on certain TV shows. This seems to happen occasionally on himyum. I noticed in this episode, the shot of the. During the Yosemite Sandy bit, there's a VHS tape of Mad TV showing. Is this a planned homage to Mad TV or a coincidence?

[Craig Thomas]

That's a prop coincidence. I don't know why that was there, but I do want to say something about that bit, which is that I think that that bit is from. Because Chris Harris wrote the episode. And that actual idea, that of putting little mustache or whatever on the TV screen was, I think, from a story from his wife, Chris's wife, Hillary, who's also our friend and very funny person, very funny writer. And she. Her group or some friend group in college that I think may have included Paul Giamatti. She was in the same year, I think, as Paul Giamatti in Yale. I think it may have been part of his friend group. Would do this, would put a mustache on the tv and when it would, like, line up perfectly with someone, there'd be like, cheers. Maybe it was a drinking game, but it was a real thing. And Chris talked about in the room, he said, they're going to do that. They're going to do that to Sandy Rivers. I think all the variations of the idea it was Yosemite Sandy was probably something we came up with, but it was. We stole this bit from real life. Like many an absurd bit.

[Josh Radnor]

It's so fun to be a writer because every little random dorm room memory is admissible. Like, it actually helps your job.

[Craig Thomas]

Yes, it's admissible in court. Yeah. Yeah, it does. And you have to. I think half the job being a writer, maybe 80% is like 83% is being a sponge. Right. Is like just sponging up details and going, this is gonna come out somehow.

[Josh Radnor]

And having recall for them at the right moment.

[Craig Thomas]

Having recall. Yeah, this fits. This moment fits. Chris Harris very good at that.

[Alec Lev]

So for a final question, here's another category of a big question here from Yasmin Zekri. This episode play with perception. Ted believes Mary is a prostitute. Robin pretends she doesn't care, and everyone's acting instead of just being honest. So here's what I want to ask. How much damage do we do to our relationships when we make assumptions instead of asking the hard questions? And why is pretending always easier than being vulnerable?

[Josh Radnor]

Wow, that's a good question.

[Craig Thomas]

It's, like, smart question. It's.

[Josh Radnor]

It's great. It's totally above our pay grade to answer this, but let's try. That's, like, a great question to ask of like. Like an actual expert. My wife would be able to answer that question.

[Craig Thomas]

Yeah, I was just gonna say Jordana. It sounds like a question Jordana would ask.

[Josh Radnor]

I read a really interesting article on substack that was like, don't let your life be guided by movie logic. And essentially what it was saying, like, most plots in a movie are because people won't have hard conversations or uncomfortable conversations. Like, you know, Good Will Hunting could have stopped him and spelled like, you know, you seem like a really smart guy, but your anger's getting in the way of your. Your mo. Like, if someone had just, like, said these things, I mean, obviously you wouldn't have a movie to watch, and that wouldn't be good. But. But the. The. The author was saying, don't let your own life be guided by what you see in movies, which is often talking around things. Miscommunication. And she. She did this example that I think she was in law school or graduate school, and there was a woman, and I don't know if it was, like, a guy that they both liked or something, where there was a miscommunication. Slash, they were at cross purposes for some reason. And she kind of glared at her friend, the woman across the room, and she marched right up to her and said, look, I think we got off on the wrong foot here. There might be a miscommunication. I would really like to hash this out. And the woman said, oh, my God, I'm so glad you said that. I've been feeling the same thing. She said, she became my ride or die best friend. Right? And it's something Tim Ferriss says, that your success in life is directly proportional to the amount of uncomfortable conversations you're willing to have.

[Craig Thomas]

Have.

[Josh Radnor]

And I just had two uncomfortable conversations with people that I needed to have yesterday. And, boy, last night, I couldn't have been in a better mood. I felt newly born. It's what Stutz calls death cookies. You know that these things that are kind of on Our list that are looming that you really don't want to do. But once you do them, it uncorks this enormous amount of life energy. When you say the thing you feel like socially, you're not supposed to say or, you know, but when you're vulnerable, you know, I'm a big fan of it. Not maybe in the movie writing because we still want to have movies to watch where people don't know how to do this. But I think in life it's a great idea to be as clear. You know, like Brene Brown says, clear is kind.

[Craig Thomas]

I have felt terrible since you told me yesterday you never really liked me for 20 years. But I'm glad you slept great.

[Josh Radnor]

Yeah. I'm so sorry, Craig. Just for me, it was a great relief.

[Craig Thomas]

I'm glad. It's a load off. Um, it's. It's so true. And I think what I like about again, I think things come out. I'm realizing, like I don't. This wasn't intentional. This is the episode where we introduced group telepathy. Maybe we introduced group telepathy because so much of the rest of the actual communication is bullshit in this episode. They're all putting on some fucking bullshit in this episode. This question's exactly right. And this sort of. At a certain moment in the episode they have to resort to telepathy because no one's actually saying the things some.

[Josh Radnor]

People are we masks they mean to be wearing. Whereas Mary has a mask thrust on her. That's not a. That's not the correct mask.

[Craig Thomas]

You know, she's the only person telling the truth. She's the only person telling the truth. Yeah.

[Alec Lev]

Well, that's it. Those are our questions. Thank you so much for them. On Instagram and everywhere else that. That you can talk to us on the. On the Facebook How We Made youe Mother fan page. By the way, every time I pause, I say our name. How we made.

[Josh Radnor]

I'm.

[Doug Matica]

Now I trip up over what the.

[Alec Lev]

Name of the show is versus How I Made and I write it.

[Craig Thomas]

Oh, it's very challenging. We made this very hard on ourselves.

[Josh Radnor]

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Alec Lev]

But thank you so much for everything.

[Craig Thomas]

Keep em coming. Thanks everybody.

[Unknown]

I am guilty. Please acquit me. All sins are forgiven in New York City.

[Doug Matica]

How We Made youe Mother is hosted and executive produced by Josh Radner and Craig Thompson. The show was produced by me, Alec Lev and our co producer is Doug Matica. Our audio producer and mixer is Alex Reeves at Point of Blue Studios and our digital content producer, AKA Gen Z Master is Emily Blumberg artwork by John Morrow. Please follow, rate and review the show on Apple Podcasts or your podcast player of choice. It really does help the show. Our theme song is NYC by our own Josh Radnor, with additional music by Craig Thomas and Andrew Majewski. Special thanks to Lola Kennedy and Elliot Connors. Visit howwimedyourmother.com to sign up for our Substack mailing list and for links to our social media. You can also click on the contact page to send us an email or a voice message. Your stories and questions are an important.

[Alec Lev]

Part of the show.

[Doug Matica]

Want some merch? Click on the store link or go to howyougetyourmerch.com subscribe to Josh Radner's Muse Letters on Substack. Order Craig Thomas debut [e-mail] novel and you can subscribe to My Dead Fathers Society, also on Substack, to learn about how you make a difference, this show's ongoing campaign to raise money for congenital heart disease research. Check out the Make a Difference tab at the top of our website. This episode was made possible by the support of Backyard Ventures. People will, in fact dance.

[Unknown]

The real question it just hit me. Am I in love with you or just New York City.