General Questions | S1E4 "Return of the Shirt"

Summary

How We Made Your Mother – Season 1, Episode 4: "Return of the Shirt"

In this engaging fourth episode of How We Made Your Mother, hosts Josh Radner and Craig Thomas delve deep into the intricacies of the iconic sitcom, analyzing the episode titled "Return of the Shirt." Joined by their producer, Alec Lev, the trio navigates through fan-submitted questions, exploring themes of nostalgia, memory, costume design, and the show's nuanced approach to gender dynamics. Here's a comprehensive breakdown of the episode's key discussions and insights.

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1. Introduction to "General Questions"

The episode kicks off with Josh Radner welcoming listeners to a bonus installment of the podcast. He introduces Craig Thomas and highlights the segment of "general questions," which are queries submitted by fans through various platforms like Substack and Instagram.

Josh Radner [00:11]: "Hello, and welcome to a bonus episode of How We Made Your Mother. I'm Josh Radner. I'm here with my friend Craig Thomas."

Alec Lev [00:49]: "We should probably discuss what saluting is. I think the key to it is that that the, the part where it comes up to you, it's not the letting it go. I, I, I think it's more about you."

A playful exchange ensues as the hosts joke about the rhythm of announcing "general questions," setting a relaxed and personable tone for the episode.

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2. Fan Questions Explored

The heart of the episode revolves around addressing fan-submitted questions. Alec Lev introduces several notable inquiries:

• Live. Bumpus from Instagram: "Is it strange to watch yourself interact with everyone before you actually knew them?"

• PeterStewart, 29: "Just wondering, how much input did you both have on clothing choices throughout the rest of the show?"

• Bry for you go: "Why were all the websites the creators made taken down, and what was your involvement with them?"

• Ryan Levy: "How would you reflect on the 'beat up by a girl' comment at the end? Felt like a pretty diabolical punchline to me."

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3. Nostalgia and Memory in "Return of the Shirt"

Josh Radner delves into the episode's exploration of nostalgia, citing playwright Richard Greenberg's perspective:

Josh Radner [14:10]: "Nostalgia is simply a longing for a time we know we can survive."

Craig Thomas echoes this sentiment, emphasizing how How I Met Your Mother captures the essence of longing for the past.

Craig Thomas [14:24]: "That's the whole show, in a way. That's what How I Met Your Mother is."

The hosts discuss how nostalgia often paints past relationships and times in a more favorable light, a central theme in the episode where Ted reconnects with Natalie only to mistakenly believe it's a second chance.

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4. The Iconic Shirt: Costume Design and Symbolism

PeterStewart's question leads to an insightful discussion on the show's costume design, particularly the significance of Ted's distinctive shirt in "Return of the Shirt."

PeterStewart [05:30]: "Just wondering, how much input did you both have on clothing choices throughout the rest of the show?"

Craig Thomas reveals the collaborative process with costume designers:

Craig Thomas [06:18]: "Pam Wood, our wonderful director, Pam Freeman, she always had an eye on, like, does that make sense? Is that that character?"

Josh Radner shares his personal experience trying on multiple shirts to find the perfect fit for Ted's character, emphasizing the shirt's role in conveying Ted's discomfort and attempt to appear fashionable.

Josh Radner [05:39]: "We picked that shirt because it felt like a shirt that he wouldn't normally wear or gravitate to."

Both hosts agree that the shirt's standout nature was crucial to the episode's metaphorical narrative, reflecting Ted's internal struggle.

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5. Music’s Integral Role

Alec Lev introduces a question about the show's music, prompting the hosts to discuss their musical influences and the selection process for songs featured in the series.

Alec Lev [22:40]: "I'd love to know your thoughts on the music, if you have any favorite songs, bands from the show."

Craig Thomas highlights their mutual love for melodic and thoughtful music, mentioning their collaboration with music supervisor Andy Gowen and composer John Swihart.

Craig Thomas [23:11]: "We kept doing that. And we often handpicked featured songs on the show."

Josh Radner reflects on his musical influences, citing artists like Joni Mitchell and Bob Dylan, and discusses how music serves as a soundtrack to the characters' lives, enhancing the emotional depth of their stories.

Josh Radner [26:12]: "I just love good melody and smart lyrics. Like, I want to be told a story in a song."

They specifically mention the use of Belle and Sebastian's "We Rule the School" in the episode, underscoring its thematic relevance.

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6. Evolution of the Show and Character Development

The hosts delve into the show's nuanced portrayal of gender dynamics, highlighting how How I Met Your Mother balances strong female characters with the softer sides of its male leads.

Josh Radner [32:56]: "It was a negotiation. Right. Because you guys were also trying to negotiate with the network."

Craig Thomas discusses the challenges of writing characters like Barney, who embodies hyper-masculinity, and ensuring that his actions are seen as a parody rather than an endorsement.

Craig Thomas [34:46]: "Barney has to be Barney in this show. And not everybody is equally as evolved in the way they speak about things."

They acknowledge that some jokes and character actions may not have aged well, reflecting on the evolving societal perspectives since the show's inception.

Craig Thomas [31:53]: "I don't love it. Yeah. I think in general we will talk about some clunkers that didn't age well."

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7. Addressing Online Content and Legacy

Responding to Bry for you go's inquiry about the disappearance of the show's official websites, Craig Thomas explains that domain names were likely not maintained post-production, leading to their expiration and loss.

Craig Thomas [28:55]: "I think the studio had bought these domain names and probably they ran out and expired and studio changed hands."

They express a desire to resurrect these digital portals to preserve the show's immersive universe, highlighting the collaborative efforts involved in creating interactive content for fans.

Josh Radner [29:13]: "They should open source them like Wikipedia and let How I Met Your Mother fans run the Goliath National Bank website."

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8. Reflections on Humor and Cultural Impact

Alec Lev poses a critical question about the episode's final joke, prompting a reflective discussion on the nature of humor and its reception over time.

Ryan Levy's Question [31:54]: "How would you reflect on the 'beat up by a girl' comment at the end? Felt like a pretty diabolical punchline to me."

Craig Thomas candidly shares his current perspective, influenced by his young daughter's prowess in taekwondo, acknowledging that certain jokes may no longer resonate as intended.

Craig Thomas [31:53]: "I think the joke isn't great now. It feels a little 20 years ago."

Josh Radner emphasizes the show's broader aim to challenge traditional gender roles, presenting vulnerable male characters alongside strong female counterparts.

Josh Radner [34:07]: "We showed strong women and we showed the softer side of men all the time."

They discuss the delicate balance of maintaining character authenticity without inadvertently endorsing outdated stereotypes, a testament to the show's evolving narrative approach.

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9. Closing Remarks and Future Endeavors

As the episode wraps up, Josh and Craig express their enjoyment in engaging with the fan community, likening the experience to sharing stories around a campfire. They encourage listeners to continue submitting questions and partake in the ongoing discourse surrounding the show.

Josh Radner [36:25]: "It's all I do. It's."

Craig Thomas [36:25]: "I'm having a really good time doing this."

The hosts hint at future discussions, including potential side quests like resurrecting the show's original websites, and emphasize their gratitude towards the dedicated fanbase.

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Notable Quotes

• Josh Radner [14:10]: "Nostalgia is simply a longing for a time we know we can survive."

• Craig Thomas [34:46]: "Barney has to be Barney in this show. And not everybody is equally as evolved in the way they speak about things."

• Josh Radner [25:57]: "Right. And how music and memory are so intertwined."

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Conclusion

This episode of How We Made Your Mother offers a rich exploration of the "Return of the Shirt" episode, intertwining fan interactions with behind-the-scenes insights. From the symbolic choice of Ted's shirt to the poignant discussions on nostalgia and memory, Josh Radner and Craig Thomas provide listeners with a deeper understanding of the show's lasting cultural impact. Their thoughtful reflections on character development and thematic storytelling underscore why How I Met Your Mother remains a beloved staple in modern sitcom history.

Transcript

[Craig Thomas]

Foreign.

[Josh Radner]

Hello, and welcome to a bonus episode of How We Made youe Mother. I'm Josh Radner. I'm here with my friend Craig Thomas.

[Craig Thomas]

Hello. Very happy to be here.

[Josh Radner]

Hello, Craig. Always great to see you. Our, our producer extraordinaire, Alec Lev is with us and these episodes calling general questions. General questions. General questions. These are questions we get from all over. From our substack page from Instagram. When Alec posts questions about, you know, send us your questions about specific episodes. So these are questions about episode four, Return of the shirt. Is that right, Alec?

[Alec Lev]

That's correct.

[Josh Radner]

All right.

[Alec Lev]

That's correct. We should probably discuss what saluting is. I think the key to it is that that the, the part where it comes up to you, it's not the letting it go. I, I, I think, I think it's more about you.

[Craig Thomas]

You don't know.

[Josh Radner]

You know what, you can serve in the army.

[Craig Thomas]

You're not. Come on, you can't.

[Josh Radner]

Just because you invented the bit doesn't mean you own.

[Alec Lev]

It's exactly what it means because you.

[Craig Thomas]

Invented the bit you wanted. You have, you know, But I do.

[Josh Radner]

Think we should work on our rhythm. I do think we should work on our rhythm. So when I say general questions. General questions.

[Craig Thomas]

General questions.

[Josh Radner]

But let's try to link it up. General questions.

[Alec Lev]

Craig, why don't you say both words, say general questions. I did not. He did. Be louder.

[Josh Radner]

Jesus, Alec.

[Craig Thomas]

Jesus Christ.

[Josh Radner]

This is over your bit.

[Craig Thomas]

You're very proprietary over your bit. You got to.

[Josh Radner]

These are episodes we're calling general questions. General questions. All right, that was closer. So you can also go to how we made your mother.com go to contact. Tell us your story. You can write it, but we would love it if you would record it. Tell us what how I met your mother means to you and also any questions you might have about upcoming episodes. We really want this to be a fan centered show. We want to interact with you. We want to hear from you. You're burning, burning questions and your observations and why you keep watching the show. And if you're watching for the first time and something trips you up, ask us.

[Alec Lev]

And so this week I put out some, let's call them, instructions, best practices for getting your question into general questions here.

[Josh Radner]

General questions.

[Craig Thomas]

General questions. We gotta stand our toes. We gotta stand our toes.

[Alec Lev]

You know, we're trying to avo avoid yes or no questions, right? We have a lot of time here. We want to talk about things we're trying to avoid too much. I guess you'd call it writing, right? Like hey, does.

[Josh Radner]

Would.

[Alec Lev]

Would Ted like pepperoni or cheese pizza more? You know, we're not sort of diving back into retelling stories, but people had great questions. I really encourage people to ask the big questions, right? That's.

[Craig Thomas]

We.

[Alec Lev]

They tell us the big stories about their lives. Interested in the big questions. We're interested also about production itself, what happened. So I just want to shout out, Be it Adul, who just simply said, tell us everything, please. Which I thought was. Which I thought was lovely and a great. A good. A good start to the whole evening. Okay, Live. Bumpus from Instagram says, obviously, after all these years, Josh, you and the gang know each other so well. As you're rewatching. Is it strange to watch yourself interact with everyone before you actually knew them?

[Craig Thomas]

Well, that's a good question.

[Josh Radner]

That's a great question. That kind of, like, scrambles my brain a little bit. I mean. Yeah, I guess by the history. By the fourth episode in actorland, you kind of feel like you do know each other well. Actors have an ability, I think, sometimes to their detriment, but I would call it instimacy, you know, where you can kind of approximate intimacy rather quickly. It's why actors can fall in love very quickly on set, but you can also become best friends very quickly or arch enemies very quickly. And I think by the fourth episode, by this episode, I kind of felt like I knew these people. I knew Neil before because we had done a play together. So by the time we were even shooting the pilot, I felt like I knew him. And it's nothing compared to what you feel by the ninth season when you really know people. But I think the other thing is we were playing people who really knew each other well. So even though Barney and Robin were newer additions to the gang, you know, me, Allie and Jason were approximating a relationship that was 10 years old at that point. We met at freshman year of college, so I think that. It's hard to say. I think part of the job of the actor is to approximate the intimacy and the closeness and the longevity of the relationship, whatever it is, even though you just got hired and got thrown together on a soundstage. But I don't think it's something that I thought much about until this question. So just. I'm riffing. That's what I got.

[Alec Lev]

That's great. PeterStewart, 29, says. I presume wardrobe was a large part of the show, and the shirt chosen as the shirt must have been part of the process. Just how. Just wondering, how much input did you both have? On clothing choices throughout the rest of the show. A good chance to just talk about costume design a little bit.

[Craig Thomas]

Josh, in this episode, I'm curious, do you remember if a bunch of shirts were brought to you and you were helped? You helped choose, like, this sort of distinctive, slightly weird one?

[Josh Radner]

I have a vague memory of coming in and having, like, five or six shirts there. And then, I mean, I remember you basically, you try them all on, and the right one just kind of announces itself. I think we. I think we picked that shirt because it felt like a shirt that he wouldn't normally wear or gravitate to.

[Craig Thomas]

Yeah.

[Josh Radner]

But it looked like it maybe was in the world of what he might have bought one random day at wherever, whatever store. But I think it. I. Well, we. They would always take polaroids of you, and then they would send them to you. Right. Like, you would look over the costume choices and how rigorous were you with the costumes? Would you ding some stuff, or were.

[Craig Thomas]

You just like, fine, we ding stuff sometimes? And Pam Wood, our wonderful director, Pam Freeman, she always had an eye on, like, does that make sense? Is that that character? And, like. And if you guys ever said something that always meant a lot to me, like, I always. I would always side with, like, yeah, you need to feel it. You need to feel it on your body. Like, you. So that's why I figured you were part of choosing that shirt. I think Carter might have been on set that week. Not me. Carter and I traded off who was where when running the. And so I don't think I was part of that choice, But I'm sure it was agonized over. I'm sure there were half a dozen shirts, and there were discussions and debates.

[Josh Radner]

About why that one. There's that kind of thing where you. Your fashion choices minor. I have a pretty narrow band of, like, I just wear kind of the same thing all the time. But, like, if I do wear something, like, a little bit different, like, I do kind of walk around expecting people to say, hot top, bro. Or like. Like to acknowledge, like, oh, this. Look at this. This is new. I wore a tie dye cardigan last week, and it's something I kick around the house. Jordana wears it a lot, but I never have worn it publicly. And I was shocked that you guys weren't like, hot top, bro. But if you want to see me in my tie dye cardigan, which I.

[Craig Thomas]

Love, by the way. Retroactive hot top, bro.

[Josh Radner]

Yeah. Thank you. Thank you.

[Craig Thomas]

Many days late. But that shirt was a good choice because it did look notable on him. Right he wears it that whole episode and it feels like a little wrong. Like not quite him. Like he's trying to force it. It had to. Metaphorically. I'm slightly forcing this thing that isn't meant to be. Right. Because that was the metaphor.

[Josh Radner]

It looked like a guy who was like, they're going to someplace fancy and maybe a club, but he doesn't know how to quite dress for it. So he's like, this is nice enough. Right. Like, it was like a little upgrade.

[Craig Thomas]

And. And like it's. It's that thing you put on. You're like, this is nice.

[Josh Radner]

Right, Right.

[Craig Thomas]

Like you're not confident. It's like it's, it's. And you obviously come in and do. Right, right.

[Josh Radner]

You.

[Craig Thomas]

You get on board with it. But he's sort of convincing himself about it because it is kind of a weird shirt. Right. It does kind of jump out a little bit. He doesn't feel totally comfortable in it, which is the point of the episode. So.

[Josh Radner]

Right. Like, if it was a. That you just look at and you're like, that is a great shirt. The whole episode kind of doesn't work. Like it should be a thing that you're like, you're drawn to it, but ultimately it's not for you.

[Craig Thomas]

It's slightly off and eye catching. And you can't decide if it's eye catching in a good way or a bad way. And the answer is it's kind of both. Yeah. So I think we nailed the shirt choice in that one, actually, in that regard.

[Alec Lev]

This goes a little bit to the flow of the production week, which we started to talk about last week. But Craig, how many days does. Well, there's the whole crew, but let's just talk about costumes right now. How many days do they have between getting the script and needing to have this thing ready to go?

[Craig Thomas]

We would distribute the outline at a certain stage to production so they could sort of flag what some production needs would be and they would have known way ahead of time. Like, there's a really featured shirt. The episode's also called Return of the Shirt, so that's a heads up. But things like that, you sort of flag them as early as you could. So there might be a couple weeks. There might be even a few weeks. But sometimes you have a completely last minute idea. That's the rewrite you're doing for the episode that shoots Wednesday morning and it's Tuesday night at midnight. And we had this amazing crack production crew and staff that could make that happen. But yeah, with this, where this was the idea the whole time, they would have had a little bit of lead time. So I'm sure they were selecting a batch of shirts. But yeah, I mean, the answer is it just varies wildly and it's both in one episode. It could be they knew one part of it for many weeks. And then we came up with something at midnight on Tuesday and they had to get it by Wednesday at 11am when we shot it. So that's. It's. It's all of the above. That's what made it so chaotic and great.

[Josh Radner]

And I wrote you this little ditty to sing to you in New York City. Greg. Summer's approaching.

[Craig Thomas]

It sure is.

[Josh Radner]

Can you feel it?

[Craig Thomas]

It's in the air though.

[Josh Radner]

Like the weather's been confusing in New York, right?

[Craig Thomas]

Very confusing.

[Josh Radner]

No idea. Take an umbrella. Don't take an umbrella. What jacket?

[Craig Thomas]

Yellow umbrella? No yellow umbrella. It's a whole thing.

[Josh Radner]

So, yeah, as summer is approaching, my schedule starts clearing up around July. The Mrs. Is that what I call my wife these days?

[Craig Thomas]

The Mrs. Oh my God, I've never heard you use that term. Is it 1953 already?

[Josh Radner]

I think so.

[Craig Thomas]

Little woman.

[Josh Radner]

The little lady. I'm gonna take her overseas.

[Craig Thomas]

Really? This is, this is also very old timey speak, by the way. Overseas? Yeah. Are you gonna take a steamer cruise?

[Josh Radner]

Well, we're gonna. Whatever. I'm gonna wear a three piece suit on the plane, I'll tell you that much. I dress up for travel.

[Craig Thomas]

The twin prop plane.

[Josh Radner]

Yeah, yeah, yeah. We're going to Fantasy Island. No, we're. We're considering. Tell, tell me what you think about these. These destinations we're considering. Considering Portugal. Have you ever been to Portugal?

[Craig Thomas]

I've never been. I hear it's amazing.

[Josh Radner]

Okay.

[Craig Thomas]

I have nothing to offer you, though. All I can say is it's amazing.

[Josh Radner]

Maybe a little. Little time in Mallorca where I was in Deya. The only town I was in. But Mallorca is in beautiful places. Beaches, Sardinia. Do you know anything about Sardinia?

[Craig Thomas]

See, that's cool. Has the missus been to Mallorca? Has the missus been there? Because it's nice to take her somewhere, you know, a little bit. And you take her around.

[Josh Radner]

Well, I only know this one town, but we might do a couple days with friends, maybe in Mallorca, and then pop over to this little sleepy beachside place in Portugal and then spend a couple days in Lisbon and then head home.

[Craig Thomas]

Okay, I'll come. This is all leading to you asking me to go?

[Josh Radner]

Oh, oh, oh, this is awkward. Or is this this was not.

[Craig Thomas]

Is there another motive to this conversation?

[Josh Radner]

No, I just wanted to hash it out with you. It's my friend, but now I have.

[Craig Thomas]

It's really uncomfortable now.

[Josh Radner]

I have to say. Stop. Stop inviting yourself on my vacations with my wife. It's just. There's only space on the. On the steamer for me and the missus.

[Craig Thomas]

Okay, fine, fine, fine. Well, you know what? Listen to this, though. I have an idea. Even though you completely iced me out just now and kind of broke my heart on camera while it's being recorded, I will say this much. What is happening at. To your place while you're away?

[Josh Radner]

What do you mean? My place is just. Just sitting here. Just collecting dust and cobwebs.

[Craig Thomas]

Just sitting there?

[Josh Radner]

Yeah.

[Craig Thomas]

Josh, you are missing a huge opportunity here, my friend.

[Josh Radner]

Really? Tell me.

[Craig Thomas]

Huge opportunity. Two opportunities. One is inviting me along on the vacation. Opportunity. Two is, while you're away, you can make a little extra cash by hosting your place on Airbnb.

[Josh Radner]

I. That sounds like a great idea. The former one about you coming with us. I'm not. I'm not so fond of that.

[Craig Thomas]

Okay, well, maybe I'll Airbnb your place while you're away so I'll at least feel close to you. Oh, that would be.

[Josh Radner]

So I'll do that. Would you use a fake name? Would you. Would you. Would you come in with, like, a bad mustache and wig?

[Craig Thomas]

Yeah. Not.

[Josh Radner]

Not.

[Craig Thomas]

Not. Craig Thomas.

[Josh Radner]

I know that's you.

[Craig Thomas]

That's my. That's my alias. Is not Craig Thomas.

[Josh Radner]

Greg Thomas.

[Craig Thomas]

Greg Tomas.

[Josh Radner]

Yes.

[Craig Thomas]

From Portugal.

[Josh Radner]

Well, your home might be worth more than you think. Find out how [e-mail] host.

[Alec Lev]

Well, heeding the call for a big question and really getting into the. The concept, Josh, you had of this show originally, which is. Let's. Let's take the themes of this show and. And see where they spin us. Da underscore. Matthew 654 says, on this episode, Ted reconnects with Natalie, thinking it was a mistake to break up with her, only to break. Break her heart again. Do you think nostalgia makes us see past relationships in a better light than they actually were?

[Josh Radner]

I worked with this playwright years ago named Richard Greenberg, who's a great, great writer, and he had this quote that I always think about when I think about nostalgia. He says, nostalgia is simply a longing for a time we know we can survive.

[Craig Thomas]

Great line. That's the whole show, in a way. That's what How I Met yout Mother is.

[Josh Radner]

Right. And I think the reason we're nostalgic for the past is because we made it through. And the future. I mean, think about it like the 1980s, we thought we were going to die in a nuclear, like, holocaust. Like, it was. That was a very real feeling.

[Craig Thomas]

Yes.

[Josh Radner]

And now you look back at the 80s and you just think about, like, Thriller and Cyndi Lauper. You know what I mean? Like, like aerobics. Like, you just think about the, the decade.

[Craig Thomas]

Yeah.

[Josh Radner]

And then like Y2K. Like every generation has its kind of like apocalyptic dread kind of just woven in. But we don't know if we're going to get out of this one. But if we do 2050, we're going to look back at 2025 and be like, ah, a simpler time. It was a simpler time, wasn't it? It was a great time to raise children, you know, oh, my God, 2050.

[Craig Thomas]

Is going to fucking suck. Apparently.

[Josh Radner]

But that's the thing is like, our brains. Our brains do this weird thing. This kind of, like, it was easier back then. It was better back then. Yeah. And I think Ted, in that, in the, this episode is like, I can't figure out this moving forward thing. I don't like meeting new people and having to tell them all the old stories. Like, you know that thing when you're dating. Not you, Craig, but that thing when you're dating and you're like, oh, my God, I have to tell this woman all of the stories and, like, about my parents and like, where, like, you wish you could have like a. A chip you could just like, inject into their neck and they would just download all the stories so you could just like, move on.

[Craig Thomas]

But it's like an kung fu thing.

[Josh Radner]

It's like you just have to like.

[Craig Thomas]

I know all Josh's anecdotes. All right. Caught up. Right?

[Josh Radner]

No, God forbid they know all the anecdotes.

[Craig Thomas]

But.

[Josh Radner]

But I, I think there's something about. Okay, I. I know what that's like. And there. I think when we're scared, we yearn for the familiar, you know, we yearn for comfort.

[Craig Thomas]

I love that observation about this episode. That is what the episode is. And we don't. It's like, again, we don't explicitly state it. Maybe we could have stated it even more explicitly. But the drive to. I want to go back to something because I already had done the work. The jar was loosened there. Right. There's something to go back to. That's sort of Ted's secret drive in that episode. Right. I don't want to have to re. Explain myself anymore.

[Josh Radner]

And Also, I think kind of what we were talking about, like, he really put his heart out there with Robin. It got stomped. And now he's like, you know what? I, I did take a big risk with someone new, so why don't I go back to. I mean, Ted does have. There's a runner where he likes cozy things. You know, he likes, like he likes the paper, he likes a certain coffee shop or bagel shop. Like, there's all these things that he just like he, he likes the familiarity and the rotness of certain things.

[Craig Thomas]

Yeah. It's interesting, in episode three and episode four, there's two in a row where he's clinging to something, like he just wants to go to his normal bar, Right. And Barney says, you're stuck in a rut and breaks him out of that. And in this one, he's like, I want to go back. I want to go back to something that should have worked and that is safer than the new. And it's consistent episode to episode. It's a good little two episode arc there. I never thought of it quite that way.

[Alec Lev]

There's a book called Remember by Lisa Genove, and it talks about sort of the science of memory. And I'm fascinated by one thing where she talks about, we expect that memory. We look at memory as, oh, I can just go play the film from August 22, such and such a day. That's not memory at all. You're not just on record all the time. You have to make memories. And you make memories from first kisses to 9 11.

[Josh Radner]

Right.

[Alec Lev]

Things that are just going to clearly stay with you. You also make memories from speaking about them over and over and over. You're telling stories about this and, and the notion of a good memory, like a clear memory about something is, you know, good luck. Right? You're immediately, you're immediately adding things to it. And so. Right. I think when we're going, you're going back to an old relationship or to an old time, you're not going back to it. You're going to your current version of it, which is as good as you can do. I mean, right now I'm writing this stuff about my father who passed away when I was 17. And I'm much more interested in what I think happened than what actually happened, than what he was actually like, because that doesn't matter anymore. When I write something about what my mother did or what his brother did, I don't go and fact check it because who cares? It's where it landed with me. Now that is the only Current reality.

[Josh Radner]

Yeah, it's kind of like we're all unreliable narrators. Like every single one of us is an unreliable narrator. And it also begs the question, and I've seen people ask about this, and this is a larger, more global How I Met yout Mother question is what we're watching in the quote, unquote, present day, is that the story that Ted is telling the children? Or is it what really happened? And he's sanitizing the story. Are we getting the unfiltered, unvarnished version? And he's telling his kids a much more abridged, abbreviated version? Because it makes me think it's the latter. Because he says things like sandwiches and he, you know, he tries to protect them from some of the more grown up aspects of the deal. So what do you think, Craig?

[Craig Thomas]

Yeah, I mean, I think it's both. I think it toggles back and forth at our convenience when it serves the joke or the moment. But, yeah, I think he's telling condensed versions and we, the audience, are kind of going in to inhabit more of that story. We're sort of transported. He opened the door for us and we get to see things that aren't literally in the story.

[Josh Radner]

And presumably because the kids don't change, they don't have a costume change. And you made that. You guys made the joke at Comic Con that they'd been held in the basement for, like, years.

[Craig Thomas]

Yeah, yeah, we shot a special thing once. They were older at the end of the show.

[Josh Radner]

But presumably this is just one long afternoon of tale telling. Right?

[Craig Thomas]

In theory, yeah. It's Scheherazade. Right. It's like this. Is this endless. Like the story just keeps going. And yeah, he's not literally telling every beat of every beat in every episode. That would be impossible. But of course, the whole thing is kind of impossible anyway.

[Josh Radner]

Yeah, but I love this idea that memory is not, certainly not an infallible thing. Although there is a syndrome, I think Mary Lou Henner, the actress, has this where she has, like, perfect memory.

[Alec Lev]

Do you know about this, Alexa? It's in the book. Should they talk all about her in this book? She. Can you give her a date? She could tell you where she was, what she was wearing. It's stunning. Yes.

[Josh Radner]

Wow. Yeah, I don't have that. I do notice, though, and I think this is part of where Barney is. The angel quality of Barney that we've been talking about. Certainly his devil qualities are, like, much in evidence, but his angel quality is he does encourage, especially Ted, to step into novelty and make Memories, because.

[Alec Lev]

You.

[Josh Radner]

Don'T remember an average night drinking in the bar with your friends, but you do remember licking a Liberty Bell in Philly. So the things that you cited, Alec, like, are first kisses, 9, 11. Those are things that were wildly out of the ordinary or you weren't expecting to happen. Good, bad, all these things. So I do think our memory gets much more emblazoned when something new or novel happens. Right?

[Craig Thomas]

Yeah. I just rewind. I saw Hamilton again when it took my kids to see Hamilton. And the characters in that are so aware that they're making history. History has its eyes on you. They're so aware they're making history. And I thought of Barney while I was watching it, because Barney is like, history has its eyes on me. I have to live every night. Every night has to be legendary. People are going to talk about this, and it's hilarious that he thinks he's that important. The founding fathers in him, sort of.

[Josh Radner]

Founding brothers.

[Craig Thomas]

The founding brothers. And yeah, that is Barney's angel quality, because it's true. Most knights are forgettable, right? Most days are forgettable. What are the things that stand out? Well, Barney made those things stand out. And, yeah, that's what the show is about. That's the purpose Barney serves.

[Alec Lev]

It had Dedrobot. Dead End Robot says the music in Himyim is very specific and very obscure. I'd love to know your thoughts on the music, if you have any favorite songs, bands from the show. Also, Josh, you being a musician, I wonder who your influences are. So never a bad time to talk about music as the show is getting started here. Craig, can you talk a little bit about how it played a part? And then, Josh, you being a musician, I wonder who your influences are.

[Craig Thomas]

Yeah, I mean, well, we. Carter and I met by playing in bands together in college, and then we started writing songs together, and then we started writing comedy together. So music was the beginning of how Carter and I started working together. And we kept doing that. All the silly songs on the show, we wrote those. And we often handpicked featured songs on the show. We also had amazing music supervisor Andy Gowen, and obviously our composer, John Swihart wrote all this original music for the show and Brian Kim. So everybody who worked on the show knew how important music was to us right away. Here in episode four, Return of the Shirt, we were very much featuring Belle and Sebastian, featuring this song I love called We Rule the School, and talking about Belle and Sebastian on the show and calling them out. And I was so happy for Belle and Sebastian that they Would make money because we liked them. They get paid each time this episode is rerun. They're still getting some kind of check from being on the show, and I always hope that would lead to me becoming best friends with them. And spoilers, that did not happen. But if they're listening, I really want to hang out sometime. But no, but we did. Carter and I both loved a lot of the same music, and it turned out that connected so much with Josh, who was not a songwriter at that time, but had an amazing, amazing taste in music. And you would make us mixes, Josh. You would pitch us songs that got onto the show. We seem to all love, like, melodic, thoughtful, well written, like, really writerly songs, like, where the lyrics are very beautiful and interesting and kind of catch your ear in a different way. And it's just this episode is how I learned that you also love Belle and Sebastian. And I was like, thank God. Thank God. Ted loves Balance Question. Thank God. Our Ted, who we cast is this guy Josh Radner, who we all both love music and we're obsessive about music. Right. We talked about music all the time. And so I'd say it's hugely important in the show.

[Josh Radner]

I mean, you guys were great. Also about. I pitched you Cloud Cult. Who are my friends. We used. You'd were born J. Mae, my friend. I got her song on a show by playing it for you guys. A couple others, maybe. But I don't think. I mean, I don't think the songs were that obscure. Like, a couple of them were just like indie gems that maybe Andy Gowen scooped or you were ice cooped. But, you know, the Shins, Band of Horses, Belle and Sebastian, like, there were a lot of heavy hitters, but maybe more from the indie world.

[Craig Thomas]

Yeah.

[Josh Radner]

And I think you're right that. That the world of How I Met yout Mother. Music. Andy Gowen also was the music soup on both my movies. Great dude, fantastic taste, fantastic taste in music. But I think it was. Yeah, I think it was more like the music was inspired by the themes of the show. You know, it was like.

[Craig Thomas]

Yeah.

[Josh Radner]

Literate, thoughtful, funny, clever, ironic, you know? Yeah, yeah.

[Craig Thomas]

And. And how music and memory are so intertwined.

[Josh Radner]

That's right.

[Craig Thomas]

Yeah.

[Josh Radner]

Right.

[Craig Thomas]

In this episode. That's what it is.

[Alec Lev]

Right?

[Craig Thomas]

That song. He wants to go back into that song. He wants to climb back into that. Val Sebastian.

[Josh Radner]

They're the kind of songs that soundtrack your life.

[Craig Thomas]

Yeah.

[Josh Radner]

You know that you're wistful and, you know, as the. As the scenery rolls by when you're on A train or something, you know, and you're thinking about things. As far as my songwriting goes or my influences, I mean, they're so vast. I'm actually going to be on this podcast where I had to pick seven songs that represent seven phases of my life. And it was a fascinating thought experiment. But yeah, I mean, I have some Alzheimer's, like Damian Rice's album O. Joni Mitchell's album Blue. I grew up in a house with a lot of, like John Denver and Barry Manilow and Jim Croce and Bob Dylan and Simon and Garfunkel and classical and show tunes like just all over the place. So my thing is, like you said, Craig, like, I just love good melody and smart lyrics. Like, I want to be told a story in a song.

[Craig Thomas]

And the songs become part of our story. And all of us, when we talk about memories, we can hear the songs of that chapter in our life. And a song, I think almost, maybe a smell can do this too. But a song can bring you, can transport you back in time more than anything, like a magic trick, level transportation for your brain. And I think that's why music's important to this show. That is this, you know, time travel backwards into this life before his kids. And he wants to share what life was like and music is part of that.

[Alec Lev]

Our friend Joel Virtel always had a theory that he's never tested out, but he said if you're in the middle of something that you absolutely love, you just love this, this time in your life. You love this, this trip. He said, quickly, go put on a song and play it a few times so that later on that song can bring you back to this place. I love this thing. And also, Craig, you and I wrote some songs together. We can, we could talk about architecture, Studio one.

[Craig Thomas]

We wrote some very stupid songs together in college.

[Alec Lev]

This is a question for me, though the person didn't know it was so.

[Craig Thomas]

Look at how giddy you are. That there's a question for you. You look like fucking Christmas morning right now.

[Alec Lev]

So they didn't know it was. But, but Craig, this is something about the show. Bri for you Go. Bry for you go says this isn't specifically about the return of the shirt episode, though. I absolutely love all the sock monkeys in it. I find it hilarious. I just wanted to ask why all the websites sites the creators made were taken down and asked if you knew about them, what your involvement or knowledge was about them. As an 18 year old, I found out they used to exist, but none of them work. Anymore. Except Barney's blog, which may or may not be real. I don't know what that is. And the GNP website. I was so sad. I wanted to see them so bad. So, Craig, do you want to talk a little bit about.

[Craig Thomas]

Okay, I think the only thing to say here is we, we should call the studio and ask. Because I think the studio had bought these domain names and probably they ran out and expired and studio changed hands. Right. Like it's like a different ownership and like. So I don't know, I just think we lost track of keeping.

[Josh Radner]

They should.

[Craig Thomas]

We should have. They should be up.

[Josh Radner]

They should put them all up. They should open source them like Wikipedia and let How I Met yout Mother fans run the Goliath national bank website. Barney's blog, all the other ones.

[Craig Thomas]

Yeah, yeah. Okay. Maybe we can make a side quest of getting this accomplished at some point. It's a great. You're right. These should exist. A brilliant observation. All I can say is sorry. Maybe we can get them back. I don't know.

[Alec Lev]

They would appear in the script and either you would come to me or me and Me and Jesse, who worked with me, who's your brother in law, or we would come to you and say, hey, we can really do this website. We'd build this little website thing. We'd ask 20th to get the URL.

[Craig Thomas]

And yeah, Alex, side side quest. We have to do this. We have to get these back.

[Josh Radner]

You know what else I feel we suck. I feel like it's still like somewhat, relatively early days of, of Internet in some ways. Like 2005, 6, 7. Oh yeah. Like we were one of the first shows doing this like where you would drop the name of a website and then people would know kind of wink, wink, that it, that to go to it.

[Craig Thomas]

You're supposed to go to it and there will be something there. And we would often work very hard generating the content to put on there. And yeah, and we were proud of it. Like there was good stuff on there and it just, it gave this feeling like, like a secret handshake with the fans and the feeling that the universe of the show exists in the world. We were really proud of that stuff. And yeah, I would love to get.

[Alec Lev]

You know, for a brief moment there, I think it was in season nine, we made a website that was a collection of all the websites because really.

[Craig Thomas]

Okay, we gotta dig in.

[Josh Radner]

Dead.

[Alec Lev]

It's gone. It's dead and gone.

[Craig Thomas]

I mean, we can bring it back. We can resurrect it. Wasn't there something in this Episode return the shirt to where Ted. Doesn't Ted say in some slightly awkward way like the clip is going viral on the Internet or something like this?

[Alec Lev]

I have the Internet on my phone.

[Josh Radner]

I have Internet on my phone.

[Craig Thomas]

I have Internet on my phone. That is very 2000.

[Josh Radner]

I love seeing also the trio. He pulls out his trio to make the call.

[Craig Thomas]

Oh my God, his trio. Oh my God, my phone gets Internet now. That was it. Oh, it's so sad.

[Alec Lev]

Okay, okay, so this last question here is the first of the going back and making asking about something you wrote that maybe you would do differently. Now we've sort of hinted at, oh yeah, we're going to talk about those things. Maybe just sort of get the conversation started. Now, obviously if you're going to write comedy with a thought to will this be funny in 20 years, there will be no more comedy writing. But Ryan Levy says, how would Ryan Levy says, how would you reflect on the beat up by a girl comment at the end? Felt like a pretty diabolical punchline to me.

[Craig Thomas]

Yeah, I don't love it. Yeah. I think in general we will talk about some clunkers that didn't age well. There's way worse ones than that. But that idea, I don't think we would write it that way. Today I have a little nine year old daughter who takes taekwondo and is really good at it. She's almost nine and she's a little green belt in taekwondo and she is fierce. She could absolutely kick my ass. I think she's trying to teach me how to do it and I feel like she could defeat me. So the idea of doing a joke like that just rings so differently in my ears now. And it feels a little 20 years ago, it feels a little. My phone has Internet now level, not aging great.

[Josh Radner]

But I do think that the show was always, sometimes explicitly, but more implicitly asking questions about gender, like, what does it mean to be a man? What does it mean to be a woman?

[Craig Thomas]

We showed strong women and we showed the softer side of men all the time. So that's another reason that joke isn't great.

[Josh Radner]

Who were kind of trying to work through some of the masculine script. I don't want to impose too much on this, but there's this kind of, you know, I had said, I used to say that how I met your mother was at its heart was like a kind of gender flip. Right. You had Marshall and Ted being these incredibly sensitive guys who wanted to drink cocoa by the fire and be in relationships. And then you had these women who were much More kind of no nonsense, like, cut to the chase. Not very sentimental. Lily and. And. And Robin. And then you had Barney, who was kind of this parody of hyper masculinity. Yeah. So I think it was, like, trapped between two worlds in a way. And that's where some of the. The tension exists, but also some of the unfortunate kind of. It was a negotiation. Right. Because you guys were also trying to negotiate with the network. Like, you wanted to be, like, seen as a tough, cool show, but you also wanted to put these vulnerable male characters. Like, you centered them. Right. So it was always a tricky thing. Like, you weren't exactly smashing the patriarchy, but you were doing something revolutionary in your own way.

[Craig Thomas]

Yeah, we definitely wanted to. That was definitely the aesthetic of the show. And it is a gender flip right away in the pilot. But Barney's Barney. Right. Barney will say and do things that are different from what Ted and Marshall might say or do. And just like Archie Bunker would say things on all in the Family that his daughter and her husband found reprehensible and racist and terrible. And Archie had to be Archie in that show. And Barney has to be Barney in this show. And not everybody is equally as evolved in the way they speak about things. And in that sense, there's that weird thing of, if I'm being true to this character, they might say something like this. Right?

[Josh Radner]

Right.

[Craig Thomas]

But then there's. If they say it too much and it feels like it's becoming literal, like it's the show's point of view. That's when it's bad, you want it to be the character's point of view and not the show's point of view.

[Josh Radner]

But I do think there's a kind of modern tendency that's not always unfortunate, but sometimes unfortunate, which is the idea that if a character in a show says something reprehensible, it's the point of view of the show or the writers. And that's often not true at all. Like, it's the opposite.

[Craig Thomas]

That's not how writing works.

[Josh Radner]

That's not how writing works.

[Craig Thomas]

There'd be no great think about Shakespeare. Think of, like.

[Josh Radner]

Like Shakespeare's like Iago. Like, it makes no sense.

[Craig Thomas]

Every great work of art has a horrible character in it or several. Right. And it should say horrible things. Yeah. It's an interesting. You're always trying to find that level where you seem like you're not the show's not endorsing a bad thing, but you're also being true to who a character is. And that is a tough dance I won't say we got it right every time. Sometimes you hope that your audience sees it the way you do, and maybe most of the audience does, but some percentage of it hears it as the literal endorsement by the show, as if the show's point of view is this. That's when I feel we failed a little bit. If too many people think that way, I think we didn't communicate it clearly enough. I think some of that happens sometimes with Barney and in other ways. But I like to think that, for example, with Barney, he mostly plays as a parody of something, not an endorsement of something. But I know that not everybody took it that way. That was the intention. That's all I can say.

[Alec Lev]

All right, that's what I got for this week. Great questions, great answers.

[Josh Radner]

Hey Craig, you having a good time doing this podcast?

[Craig Thomas]

I'm having a really good time doing this.

[Josh Radner]

Alec, you having a good time doing this podcast?

[Alec Lev]

I better be. It's all I do. It's.

[Josh Radner]

Yeah, well, I am. I am. And we're so grateful. A lot of people are listening and writing in, and it just feels like we're getting to sit around a campfire and share these how I met your mother stories. So thank you for joining us. Thank you for continuing to journey with us. We got a lot more to go, but it's been a blast, so thanks lot. I am guilty, please acquit me. All sins are forgiven in New York City.

[Alec Lev]

How we made your mother is hosted and executive produced by Josh Radner and Craig Thomas. The show was produced by me, Alec Lev, and our co producer is Doug Matica. Our audio producer and mixer is Alex Reeves at Point of Blue Studios. Artwork by John Morrow. Please follow rate and review the show on Apple Podcasts or your podcast player of choice. It really does help the show. Our theme song is NYC by our own Josh Radner. Special thanks to Lola Kennedy and Elliot Connors. Visit how we madeyourmother.com to sign up for our Substack mailing list and for links to our social media. You can also click on the contact page to send us an email or a voice message. Your stories and questions are an important part of the show. Subscribe to Josh Radner's muse letters on Substack. Read Craig Thomas's published [e-mail] and you can subscribe to My Dead Father Society also on Substack to learn about how you make a difference. This show's ongoing campaign to raise money for a congenital heart disease research. Check out the Make a Difference tab at the top of our website. This episode was made possible by the support of Backyard Ventures Marketing provided by Tink Media. People will, in fact, dance.

[Josh Radner]

The real question it just hit me. Am I in love with you or just New York City?