How Alek Almost Killed Alyson | S1E20 "Best Prom Ever"

Summary

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Podcast Summary: How We Made Your Mother

Episode: How Alek Almost Killed Alyson | S1E20 "Best Prom Ever"

Date: August 18, 2025
Hosts: Josh Radnor & Craig Thomas
Special Guest: Alec Lev

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Main Theme & Purpose

This episode of "How We Made Your Mother" revisits How I Met Your Mother Season 1, Episode 20: "Best Prom Ever." The hosts, Josh Radnor (Ted Mosby) and series co-creator Craig Thomas, dig into the episode’s comedic nostalgia and behind-the-scenes stories, with special focus on guest Alec Lev’s appearance (and his near-miss with series star Alyson Hannigan). The episode balances humor and reflection, addressing fan feedback about the show's relationship to marginalized communities, the evolution of comedy, and the bittersweet reckoning with personal and creative growth—all while exploring the emotional arcs of the original episode.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Responding to a Trans Fan’s Message

[00:51 - 06:33]

• The episode opens with a heartfelt message from Jesse, a trans fan, detailing how HIMYM became a source of comfort and "home" amidst displacement, despite the show's sometimes problematic jokes about trans people.

• Craig Thomas responds with gratitude and an apology:

  “We made jokes that were sort of flippant and I think offensive to the trans community... Part of looking back on this show is owning some of that stuff... Just like to say sorry to Jesse and to anybody else in the trans community out there who felt at all hurt or othered or pushed away from the show.” (Craig Thomas, 03:12)

• Discussion on how members of marginalized communities often have to “skip over or swerve around” problematic aspects of the media they love.

• Josh and Craig reflect on how comedy has evolved, how greater specificity in storytelling can foster broader identification, and how the show’s appeal transcends its core demographic.

2. Comedy, Language, and Growth

[07:04 - 10:46]

• Hosts reflect on societal changes in the last 20 years, especially regarding sensitivity and inclusion in comedy.
• Josh notes the nature of personal growth:

  “Every five years you realize what an asshole you were five years ago. And it’s just this continuing process...” (07:04)

• Craig discusses his perspective shift as a parent to a child with disabilities, illuminating the urgency of changing everyday language and pop culture’s casual dehumanization.
• Craig:

  “When you have… a child [with disabilities], it’s just magnified… The way that people with disabilities are spoken about and joked about and marginalized… is horrifying. And it’s something I didn’t realize… until I was in that world.” (08:05)

3. Ownership, Apology, and Evolving Standards

[16:54 - 24:49]

• Further discussion about the R-word and creators’ responsibility.
• Craig explains:

  “There’s no defense of it. Once it’s a joke that can hurt someone, find another joke. If you realize you’re making a joke that hurts someone… there should be intention and meaning behind the use of any term that could potentially offend somebody... If there’s no real value to it, it’s just empty shock value.” (17:09, 18:13)

• Josh references David Baddiel’s distinction between jokes that draw on benign stereotypes versus those that have historically led to harm.

4. The Gift (and Challenge) of Generous Fandom

[23:01 - 24:49]

• Craig thanks Jesse and other fans for “grace”—looking past the show’s mistakes to still find comfort and belonging.
• Quote:

  “If Jesse watched our show and felt those moments to be othering and painful and yet saw the beauty and the comedy and the heart and stuck with the show… that is the greatest gift we could ask for.” (Craig Thomas, 24:31)

5. Behind the Scenes of “Best Prom Ever”

[25:02 - 34:49]

a. Alec Lev’s Cameo and "Almost Killing Alyson"

[28:47 - 32:02]

• Alec tells the story of filming the opening chase, where he played "Todd," and accidentally yanked Alyson Hannigan too forcefully on the steps:

  “When we’re running up those steps, I grab her arm and pull her back. My intention was just slow her down a little, not pull Alyson Hannigan back down a flight of stairs.” (Alec Lev, 31:29)

• The take where Alyson gets yanked made the final cut; production did not allow for a second take!

b. Inside Baseball: Filming Tricks

[29:24 - 30:13]

• The chase and elevator scenes were shot on different days for logistical reasons—“That’s what continuity is.”
• Alec, a longtime behind-the-scenes contributor, revels in his moment as an on-screen “day player” (and hints at a future return that never happened due to the aforementioned mishap).

c. Origins of Names & Jokes

[33:38 - 34:49]

• The "Van Smoot House" and other names likely came from real wealthy families or writer room in-jokes.
• Fun tangent on borrowing names from friends (“Todd and Valerie”) as Easter eggs.

6. Episode Analysis: Partnership, Timing, and Existential Questions

[36:42 - 51:10]

• Discussion shifts to the heart of "Best Prom Ever": Lily’s doubts about rushing into marriage and what she might be sacrificing.

  “It’s not all one thing. Nothing is ever one thing… It’s so tempting to think someone has it better than we do, but everyone has their own battles.” (Josh Radnor, 41:15)

• The hosts reflect on the show's nuanced portrayal of relationships and the tension between personal growth and commitment.

• Craig:

  “Lily’s really having that late 20s crisis that I think so many people have… am I fully me yet? Has the cement dried on you?... are you the thing you thought you were going to be? Is this the moment you should be most chasing your dream or most realizing?” (41:15)

• Lily’s “crisis of timing” (right person, right time?)—and the broader HIMYM theme of how every big choice carries both joy and loss.

• Josh discusses the "ghost ship" metaphor (from Cheryl Strayed) for the lives and choices we didn’t take:

  “Every choice is laced with grief and with sacrifice. Every big decision is laced with a kind of grief and a kind of relief and a kind of celebration.” (45:29)

• Craig draws a parallel between Lily’s journey and the Saturn Return—those tumultuous late 20s of self-discovery and crossroads.

7. Questions from a Clinical Psychologist (Jordana)

[51:46 - 54:07]

• Jordana, a clinical psychologist (and Josh’s wife), offers insights: Every choice, even the good ones, is also an act of grief for the options not chosen:

  “With every choice, even the good ones, there’s grief, because… you’re also simultaneously saying no to all the other options.” (Jordana, 51:46)

• She praises the show for not idealizing partnerships, but showcasing that “people in good and strong relationships have their own struggles, too.”

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On Comedy & Accountability:

  “If you take the 10,000 jokes Barney made and you take that one joke away, it’s not like... he’s not in sharp enough relief without that joke. Right.” (Josh Radnor, 17:58)

• On Personal Growth:

  “Every five years you realize what an asshole you were five years ago…” (Josh Radnor quoting “Happy Thank You More Please”, 07:04)

• On the Show’s Heart:

  “Love is the best thing we do. I think that’s the beating heart of the show, and we want everyone to feel loved and respected and welcomed…” (Craig Thomas, 03:52)

• On Partnership Timing:

  “It’s almost like, like, right person, wrong time—like it’s too early, but this is the right person for me… You have to engage in a process of... co-growth.” (Josh Radnor, 42:29)

• On the “Ghost Ship”:

  “You will make a choice… and off in the distance, there’ll be this ship going by with your other life...and you have to salute that ship and you have to grieve on some level.” (Josh Radnor paraphrasing Cheryl Strayed, 45:29)

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Fun Behind-the-Scenes Moments

• Alec Lev’s "Near Miss":
  Alec’s recollection of almost pulling Alyson Hannigan down the stairs (31:29) and everyone joking about the consequences of injuring a main star—“Rule number one of show business: You don’t kill Alyson Hannigan.”
• “Buzzed the lens”: Josh’s story of accidentally looking straight into the camera, a running on-set joke (32:19).
• Best Runner in TV: Alec’s on-screen sprint gets compared (jokingly) to Tom Cruise as “best runner in television” (27:23).
• “Disco!”: The group traces Lily’s use of “disco!” to a Pulp Fiction homage and Uma Thurman’s haircut (62:28).

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Funny Lines & Callbacks

• “It is on like former Soviet Republic of Azerbaijan!” (Craig, 59:30)
• “We’re going to be an umpire someday!” (Scooter, 63:12)
• Reference to “Zucker Brothers” background gags (Airplane! style) with Barney climbing through the window (63:37).
• Lily and Robin’s “lesbian kiss”—hosts wish they’d remove the field hockey follow-up for a sweeter moment (64:32).

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Timestamps for Key Segments

| Segment | Timestamps | |---|---| | Fan message and trans community apology | 00:51 – 06:33 | | Comedy, offense, and personal growth | 07:04 – 10:46 | | The R-word, intention, and defending language | 16:54 – 24:49 | | Transition to "Best Prom Ever" episode | 25:02 – 34:49 | | Alec Lev's near-miss (almost killing Alyson) | 28:47 – 32:02 | | Episode analysis: Lily's doubts and Saturn Return | 36:42 – 51:10 | | Jordana’s psychological insight | 51:46 – 54:07 |

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Closing Segment

• Review read from fan Robert W. Rogers, extolling the podcast’s value and HIMYM’s enduring “classical sitcom” magic (66:15).
• Reminders to submit letters/voice notes and subscribe to the show.

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Overall Tone & Style

The episode maintains the blend of HIMYM’s signature warmth, self-deprecation, and thoughtful reflection. The hosts are candid, funny, and willing to own past mistakes. The storytelling moves easily between laughter (Alec’s shenanigans) and honest reckoning (language, inclusion), always returning to the sense of ensemble and community both in the show and among its enduring fandom.

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Summary prepared for fans and listeners seeking an in-depth yet accessible recapitulation of the podcast’s content and spirit.

Transcript

[Alec Lev]

You say you'll never join the Navy, that you'd never track storms brewing in.

[Josh Radnor]

The Atlantic.

[Alec Lev]

And skydiving could never be part of your commute.

[Josh Radnor]

You'd never climb Mount Fuji on a.

[Alec Lev]

Port visit or fly so fast you break the sound barrier. Joining the Navy sounds crazy.

[Josh Radnor]

Saying never actually is.

[Alec Lev]

Start your [e-mail], america's Navy forged by.

[Josh Radnor]

The sea Support for this podcast and the following message comes from America's Navy. The Navy offers new graduates hands on training and experience in careers like computer science, aviation and medicine, plus education and sign on bonuses. Parents help your grads start their career [e-mail].

[Jesse]

Hi, my name is Jessie. I'm in the U.S. i'm 22. I've been watching How I Met yout Mother since I was 9. My loved ones would probably say that I'm weird about the show and I am. My family moved a lot when I was young and I watched the show again and again and again and again. And the colors of Himyum and the characters and the vernacular, the apartment and the booth all constitute a very real and very consistent location in my mind and body. When I don't have another one of those, I'm trans and I'm not going to say that Himyum was or is a show that uplifts trans people. But I will say that every time I've watched the world shift against me, I found myself coming home to this show again and again and again and again.

[Josh Radnor]

I'm alone. What a pity I won't be soon in New York City when I see you. Please permit me to tell you everything in New York City. Thank you so much for that note, Jesse. Very moving to me. And Craig, welcome to How We Made youe Mother where we discuss the TV show How I Met yout Mother, which I starred in from 2005 to 2018, no, 2014 as Ted Mosby. Craig Thomas co created the show with Carter Bayes. He's my co host. Hi Craig.

[Craig Thomas]

Hey everybody. Hey Joshi.

[Josh Radnor]

Hey. We're joined by Alec Lev, our intrepid. I don't even know what that word means, but you feel intrepid to me. Is that something you are?

[Craig Thomas]

And this is your star episode this week, if any.

[Alec Lev]

I am intrepid.

[Josh Radnor]

Yes, he's intrepid. Welcome Alec Lev. Thank you so much, Jesse, for that voice note. We're very moved by it. Craig, what's that provoking you so much?

[Craig Thomas]

Gratitude is what it is. The first thing it provokes and then the desire to apologize a little bit I'll start with the gratitude and get to the apology. The gratitude is that somebody like Jesse could watch the show and feel that connection to the show while also seeing certain jokes and moments in the show that were, I think, clunky and ignorant where we made jokes that were sort of flippant and I think offensive to the trans community in ways that at the time, 20 years ago, we were, we as the writing staff, Carter and I were not, were not aware that we were doing. And I think it's so important 20 years later, like part of looking back on this show is, you know, owning some of that stuff. The idea that we get a message from somebody like Jesse and, and we hear the love of the show and also the honest reaction to some of those moments. And I've heard we've heard this before from members of the trans community, all of whom deserve respect and they don't need to turn on a comedy show and see jokes that might be using terms that are offensive to them. And we did that a couple times very ignorantly. Just like to say sorry to Jesse and to anybody else in the trans community out there who felt at all hurt or othered or pushed away from the show. It is a show. You know. One of my favorite lines from How I Met yout Mother is love is the best thing we do. I think that's the beating heart of the show and we want everyone to feel loved and respected and welcomed into our, into our little world here. I'm so glad that Jesse was still welcome. Still, still, still was, was part of it and, and felt inside of the show even as we made some mistakes. And so I, I would just like to own those mistakes and say thanks.

[Josh Radnor]

Yeah, you know, it's interesting. It makes me reflect on if you're, if you're a member of any kind of marginalized community or minority, you, there's there. If you want to love cultural artifacts, there's a lot of stuff you're going to have to kind of like skip over or jump over or swerve around.

[Craig Thomas]

Right.

[Josh Radnor]

You know, like minority, you know, non white people had to find themselves even in our show, in white character stories, you know, and the, the beauty of the mom moment we're in or maybe, I mean there's certainly pushback against this, which is not, not good at all. But that there are stories targeted more specifically to the people that they're meant for.

[Craig Thomas]

Right.

[Josh Radnor]

And it gives us an opportunity to watch, you know, a gay story and be like, ah, totally relate, totally moved by it, totally have felt all those things. So I think in some ways, the more specific we can be, the more you. It's the. It's a classic writing advice, right? Like, the more specific you are, the more universal you become. But I think that I, you know, like, I've always been struck by the fact that it is not white 20 and 30 somethings in urban centers that only love How I Met yout Mother. That is not the fan. That is not the exclusive fan base. So it. It does transcend its characters. Demos.

[Craig Thomas]

Yeah, it does. And when we hear from people from other parts of life who still relate to the show, it's the thing that makes me the happiest. And when I realized that when there are moments that come up that I wish that I could go back in a time machine and change. Like, one of the reasons we're talking about this, in addition to Jesse's wonderful message, was that in the previous week's episode, which was Marry the Paralegal, there is a joke where Barney says a term that is derogatory towards the trans community. That at the time, 20 years ago, I just think we didn't. It seemed we were too ignorant to know that it. That it felt that way.

[Josh Radnor]

The sad part is it didn't even occur to anyone to flag it.

[Craig Thomas]

No, no, no, no, Nobody. And nobody. Nobody flagged it. Nobody thought twice about it, which is such a portrait of 20 years ago is a long time, and yet also look where we are as a society right now in 2025 and all the battles that are being fought for people's identity and to have respect and to not be marginalized, to just be able to be human. And I want. I wish I could wave a magic wand and the show that ever made anyone feel marginalized or outside of it.

[Josh Radnor]

Do you remember Craig and Happy? Thank you. More, please. There's a talk that my character has with Pablo Schreiber where I say, a writer told me once that every five years you realize what an asshole you were five years ago. And it's just. It's just this continuing process of, like, what an asshole I was five years ago.

[Craig Thomas]

Four sets of those five years.

[Josh Radnor]

Yeah, exactly. So if you, like, I think about, like, the jokes we were making my freshman year of college on that in that freshman dorm. And, like, there's not maybe one guy who I can think of would still be making those jokes, but no, no one else would be. And I think, like, it's a good thing that comedy changes. Like, I don't. I'm not. I don't Throw in with those comedians who are like, you can't say anything anymore. It's like, no, you just got to get better. You just got to get better.

[Craig Thomas]

I totally agree. So between year two and three of How Much yout Mother, my. My son was born and he has an intellectual disability and health, you know, multiple disabilities, health wise, too. And the way that changed my world, the paradigm shift that. That was for me, you know, this kind of privileged white guy, grew up on Long island, you know, Irish American. Like, I fairly sheltered college kind of opened my world so much more. But I think having Elliot, having my son, is the thing that really kicked the door open to realizing what it feels like to. To be on the receiving end of dehumanization and terms that are derogatory towards people with disabilities. To have the. There's that great line that's like having a child is to have your heart forever walk around outside your body. And that is what parenthood feels like. And if you're. If that. If that child happens to be a little more vulnerable, a little more fragile, it's just magnified. But I think all parenthood really feels that way. And like, the way that. The way that people with disabilities are spoken about and joked about and marginalized and dehumanized in some of our pop culture vernacular and some of our political discourse now, too, is horrifying. And it's something that I didn't realize how horrifying it was until I was in that world, until my. My heart was walking around outside my body. And that's what I. I've had 18 years of that now of that feeling. And. Yeah, sorry, I'm getting. I'm getting choked up thinking about. It just. It changes everything, right? It changes everything. To have to.

[Josh Radnor]

To be in that and not just about the. You know, in a lot of ways, like, marginalized people stand with other marginalized people because they know. Right. They have the experience. So it didn't just give you the experience of like, oh, I don't want anyone to say these particular words. It was like, no, let's not. Let's get rid of dehumanizing language. Like. Like, let's reconsider the whole. The whole lexicon. Right?

[Craig Thomas]

Yeah, you can't ask. Yeah, it has to be. It has to be across every. It has to be all. Can all equal. Equal parts across every sort of marginalized type of person. Like, when you have. Yeah, I just think it's my glimpse into how it feels to be. To be marginalized or to be. To be on the Receiving end of language that is sort of dehumanizing or devaluing. And I hate that there's some moments like that on the show. It certainly wasn't the end, but I think it's really important to own those moments. And I think you don't know till you know. I think you. And once that door is open, you kind of see things much more clearly. And so whenever we hear about this, I'm always, my instinct is to immediately say, yeah, I get it, I'm sorry. Because I think we've evolved and we've come a long way. I know Carter Bayes, my co creator of the show and one of my best friends. I know this matters to him so much. I know he feels this way and he would be echoing these words and feel the same way towards Jesse's message and, and so I just wanted to include him in and I wrote you.

[Josh Radnor]

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[Craig Thomas]

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[Josh Radnor]

Yeah.

[Craig Thomas]

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[Alec Lev]

All I can tell you is I have been kept from batwinging this whole time.

[Craig Thomas]

But do you know what that means? Because I don't understand.

[Alec Lev]

I don't need to know. I've got me undies.

[Josh Radnor]

Do you have a. Do you have a contoured pouch and ball caddy? Like is it.

[Alec Lev]

I mean, they've got a cut for every butt.

[Josh Radnor]

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[Craig Thomas]

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[Alec Lev]

Josh, summer is here and the time.

[Josh Radnor]

Is right for existential despair.

[Alec Lev]

Okay, I wanna. Let's. We could turn it around and let's say that you've gone through that part of it, the classic summer existential despair. Then you get to.

[Josh Radnor]

Do you ever feel oppressed by the sun? Like it's mocking you?

[Alec Lev]

Okay, hold on. See what I'm. I'm. I'm in Los Angeles. We have this warm. I think about the beach. I think about mint juice, tulip lemonade, sort of in that. In that vein. Is that anything? Does that ring anything for you?

[Josh Radnor]

Well, I. I appreciate all that, but I don't know, maybe it's because my birthday's in the summer, but sometimes I just get a hit with real, real seasonal melancholy. You know what I mean, Alec?

[Craig Thomas]

I do.

[Alec Lev]

But actually I'm wondering about your wireless bill.

[Josh Radnor]

Well, that's certainly part of it. Sometimes the wireless bill, especially the summer wireless bill, it's just. It's just too damn expensive.

[Alec Lev]

Josh, there's. There is a better way.

[Josh Radnor]

I'm listening.

[Alec Lev]

And it's incredibly convenient that we're doing an ad for it. We're doing an ad for it right now. And I'm telling you, I think once you get that wireless bill down, the existential ennui, the malaise will. Watch this. Watch this. Because I'm gonna tell you one thing that doesn't belong in the summer is getting burned by your old wireless bill.

[Josh Radnor]

You're off.

[Alec Lev]

You're trying to plan your beach trips, trying to plan your barbecue, you're trying to plan your outings to the baseball game. The last thing you want to be thinking of the last thing you want to be bringing you down is your wireless bill.

[Josh Radnor]

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[Alec Lev]

You know, it's funny, I mean, even as you're saying it, I can see, I could see the existential malaise lifting.

[Josh Radnor]

I'm getting happier as I talk about this.

[Alec Lev]

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[Josh Radnor]

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[Alec Lev]

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[Josh Radnor]

And now back to the show. Craig, you wrote such a beautiful piece. Was it in the LA Times? Where did that piece run?

[Craig Thomas]

Oh, the Boston Globe. Yeah.

[Josh Radnor]

Oh, the Boston Globe, yeah. If you can seek this out, maybe Alec, we can put this in the show notes. Craig, Craig's article.

[Craig Thomas]

Yeah, it was called Hollywood and the R Word. And it is about a derogatory term for people with intellectual disabilities. And this is what I mean. I don't like the comedy defense of it either. We can't make jokes anymore. It's just a funny word. And certainly that's. That's what it. I'm sure that's how he felt in the writer's room 20 years ago. And we're like, ah, it's just a funny word to put in. No, it's not. It's not a funny word. There's no defense of it. Once it's a joke that can hurt someone, find another joke if you realize you're making a joke that hurts someone. And like I think there's this other defense of this where people would say that's what that character would say. Right. Or that fits the story or that fits the theme so the character gets to talk like that. I'm not going to defend our use of a word like that because there's nothing important about saying that word. It's just a dumb meaning meaningless joke. It's a throwaway joke. It could be anything else.

[Josh Radnor]

If you take the 10,000 jokes Barney made in 208 episode and you take that one joke away, it's not like suddenly no one can understand Barney. Like he's not in, he's not sharp enough relief without that joke. Right.

[Craig Thomas]

It is a very clear character. He doesn't need to make that joke. And so therefore that joke has no nutritional value. That joke isn't satire. It's not particularly character defining. It's not because the episode's about that or that's how this of people would talk. I don't think it serves any purpose. And I think when comedy people try to defend. Let me you. We have to be able to say every word. I think there should be intention and meaning behind the use of any term that could potentially offend somebody. I think there's art. You look back at Huckleberry Finn and Mark Twain, he was writing a certain way to capture a certain moment, a certain vernacular. Judging it by modern day standards and not understanding the satire behind it, that's something completely different. But I just think if there's no real value to it and you're just throwing it out there, it's just empty shock value.

[Josh Radnor]

That wasn't your and Carter's most twain like moment.

[Craig Thomas]

No, no, it's not. You know, it's just, it's not satire. It's not for a reason. If it's not for a reason and you can't explain the reason, it's there in an artful way. You certainly shouldn't be using it and maybe not even then. But yeah, it's just one of those things. I think you have to own it and you have to evolve.

[Josh Radnor]

There's a, a British comedian named David Badil who wrote a really great book called Jews Don't Count and he's, he's just been writing and speaking a lot about anti Semitism over the years. And I. I saw this clip of something where he said, there's two jokes I used to tell. Or that I. That I have told. The first joke relies upon the kind of stereotype about Jews and money. The second joke, which is actually quite funny, which I'll tell, which is a German, a French person, and a Jewish guy are sitting on a bench, and it's a sweltering hot day. And the Frenchman says. He says, I'm tired, I'm thirsty. I must have wine. The German says, I'm tired, I'm thirsty. I must have beer. And the Jewish guy says, I'm tired, I'm thirsty. I must have diabetes. And the reason he says, I'm gonna keep. I will still tell that joke is because no one's killed Jews over their hypochondriacal tendencies.

[Craig Thomas]

Right.

[Josh Radnor]

But there have been. There's a long trail of blood over this idea that Jews control things and have all the money and all that pernicious stereotype. So it almost is like, you know, if you go into a marginalized community, they're joking about themselves, right? In ways that they are allowed to. That they are. You know, it's so different when, you know, when someone tells a Jewish joke, I'm always like, oh, you know, if they're not Jewish, even sometimes when they are. But, yeah, I think that there are stereotypes that are. Are for the. They're fun, and they're like, we can enjoy them, you know, and there's other ones that people get killed over. And we have to be clear about where we're telling jokes from.

[Craig Thomas]

Yes.

[Alec Lev]

I think also what Craig said about intention, that if the marginalized community is. Is. Is making a joke at their own expense, it is a bonding exercise. That's not what it is. When someone from outside the community is tearing someone down, I get into these.

[Craig Thomas]

Tussles about the R word because, yeah, I'm 18 years into being the parent of a child with a disability. And so I wrote that piece in the Boston Globe, for example, I have a novel coming out in November that's in part about this. And people online, there are people who yell at me and say, like, no one cares about the R word anymore. It's been destigmatized. It doesn't hurt anybody. We should just be able to say it. And of course, I know firsthand from talking to many people with down syndrome, for talking to my son who has Jacobson syndrome, they don't want to be called that word. No one wants to be called that word. It's not okay because you're using the word to call someone else stupid or that they have no value, you know, because you're essentially using a word that sort of originated in the disability community and now you're putting it as a totally negative word on something else. That doesn't make it okay. Like, I know for a fact that it hurts people in the disability community. So when people come at me and say like it's no big deal, it's like, no, it is a big deal. I know for absolute fact that it hurts people, people in that community. And, and they don't want to hear that.

[Josh Radnor]

It also goes to the fact that the people in the community get to set the terms.

[Craig Thomas]

Right? Sure.

[Josh Radnor]

Do they get to set the terms of the terms. And if, if, if, if people in that community say that word is hurtful to us in the same way that there, there is a thing. Sorry to make this about me, but the, the marginalized community of which I am a part is, is my religion is Judaism that I was, that I was born into. And, and you know, it gets enraging when we say that's anti Semitic and people say, no, it's not. You know, non Jews say, no, it's not. And it's like, why are we not allowed to set the terms of those terms? You know, this, this should be up to us.

[Craig Thomas]

Yeah, right. So bring it back to Jesse. If Jesse watched our show and felt those moments to be painful and was. And was thinking, why does that joke have to be there? I love. That's how I feel when sometimes I watch something and I catch the R word and there's no reason for it and it's just there for empty shock value. Also those types of jokes where you're just name checking some shock value word, they're never the funniest jokes. In fact, they're really never funny at all. And I think there's this weird defense sort of like in the sort of manosphere podcasty world of. And a lot of stand up comedy now where it's like there's this illusion that those are funny that makes it a joke. To use a shocking word makes it a joke. And it just doesn't. It's not clever. It's not surprising. There's nothing, there's not an artful way you're using it. And if Jesse watched our show and felt those moments to be othering and painful and yet saw the beauty and the comedy and the heart in the show and stuck with the Show. I would argue that Jesse has given us the greatest gift we could ask for, which is looking past some mistakes and seeing kind of the beating heart that beneath those mistakes, accepting our flaws and saying, this is still my show. This is still my place. And I just want to thank Jesse for finding that and fighting through that because I've had moments where I've had to sort of. And again, we keep on using our own ways into this, but where I've had to sort of look past certain things that feel ableist or wrong to me and still realize I love something about this piece of art anyway. And I'm going to find. I'm going to remember that I love something about and try to get past that. And I know it's not easy always. So I thank you for doing that and anybody else who stuck with us through those mistakes. It's a gift. It's grace that you're giving us.

[Josh Radnor]

Well, that was beautiful, Craig. Thank you for sharing all that. And thank you again to Jesse.

[Craig Thomas]

Jesse's message was a beautiful gift. Thank you.

[Josh Radnor]

Yeah. Well, let's talk about this week's episode. Best prom ever.

[Craig Thomas]

Yes. Yeah.

[Josh Radnor]

Yeah.

[Alec Lev]

Best prom ever.

[Craig Thomas]

And now we get to the star of today's show.

[Josh Radnor]

Hold on, hold on. Alec. I can see him. He's come on, chomping at the bit. When did this episode air? What date was this?

[Alec Lev]

I've got it. May 1, 2006.

[Josh Radnor]

Where your life changed. This is the demarcation line in your life, right? The before and after.

[Alec Lev]

There's before and after.

[Craig Thomas]

April. Yeah. So April 30th. What's the. How many days in April? That was the last day you could just go outside. Right. And like, go to normal restaurants and like, just be like. It was your last day of just anonymity. Yeah.

[Alec Lev]

And everyone calls me Todd when I walk down the street. It's.

[Josh Radnor]

Do you hear how annoying it is? Do you get it? It's very similar to what I have to do. Very people.

[Craig Thomas]

And.

[Alec Lev]

And it used to be that people would actually talk to me. Now they just want to take pictures with me.

[Josh Radnor]

It's so weird.

[Alec Lev]

I have to, like, get behind them.

[Josh Radnor]

Yeah. You're just like an image to them. It's a. Yeah. You feel very objectified.

[Craig Thomas]

Let's explain this. Alex, in the episode Alec is.

[Josh Radnor]

In the episode, Alec plays Todd of Todd and Valerie fame, running to get the Von Smoot house. Van Smoot house. Craig, real quick, summarize this episode for us.

[Craig Thomas]

Written by Ira Ungerlater, who also appears in the episode.

[Josh Radnor]

One of the great writers room names, by the way. Iraq.

[Craig Thomas]

It's a great writer name. He's really the star cameo of this episode. He's really the one that sticks in my head more than any other cameo. No. Okay, so this episode is Marshall and Lily in a frenzied battle to acquire the wedding venue they want in a fearsome chase. We open on a chase scene. Marshall and Lily versus Alec Lev and what's her name? I forget.

[Josh Radnor]

The wonderful actress who played Valerie.

[Craig Thomas]

Valerie. Valerie. Anyway, so they're in a battle to get that and to secure that venue. They get that venue, and then they realize they also need to land a wedding band. And the wedding band they want to see live. So they have to go to a high school prom to see that band and decide if they want to fully hire this band. And by going to the prom, it unlocks some of Lily's past and her memories and some things she's kind of feeling about her past and getting married now and sort of what her journey is.

[Josh Radnor]

Do you know how they say that Tom Cruise is the best runner in cinema?

[Craig Thomas]

I see where he was.

[Josh Radnor]

Do you think that Alec Lev is the best or one of the top three runners in television?

[Craig Thomas]

By the way, it's shot out of a cannon. That run. That is the episode begins. I mean it really.

[Josh Radnor]

He wants that house. He wants that house for the wedding.

[Craig Thomas]

Is Todd here with us today? I'm gonna do the James Lipton thing. Is Todd here with us today? Can we talk to Todd?

[Alec Lev]

Hello, Craig. Josh.

[Josh Radnor]

Wait, is who?

[Alec Lev]

Let me ask.

[Josh Radnor]

Oh, that's Todd.

[Craig Thomas]

Yeah, that's Todd.

[Josh Radnor]

Those are Todd's only lines.

[Alec Lev]

It's hard to tell. It's hard to tell. Josh, let me ask you. Because it's not in the episode. And Craig, I assume you know the answer to this, and I assume I know the answer to. Do you know what the phrase best prom ever comes from? Josh Radnor, do you know where.

[Craig Thomas]

I don't know what you're getting at.

[Alec Lev]

It's not just that they went to the prom. You tell me, Craig, if I'm getting at the right thing.

[Craig Thomas]

I don't know what you're gonna say.

[Alec Lev]

Craig had a bit. Craig always had a bit. When he would do a little. It was a little dance thing. It was like the classic side by side, your hands are on the other shoulders. And Craig would always say, this is the best prom ever.

[Craig Thomas]

That's right.

[Josh Radnor]

You'd start slow dancing with people.

[Craig Thomas]

Yeah.

[Alec Lev]

What situation would it be?

[Craig Thomas]

I don't know. I can't that is a deep cut. That is a deep cut. Craig Thomas reference. Thank you, Alec. I feel very seen right now. Maybe it was from that.

[Alec Lev]

I think it's all the way back to college and you did the fake arms and best prom ever.

[Craig Thomas]

I think just when we were bored and no one had anything to say, we just started doing it and say, best prom ever.

[Alec Lev]

So. Yeah. So you and Carter asked me if I would. And the first story I have is that as a. As a. As a what. What is that called? I'm a. I'm not. I'm not a star necessarily. What. What do you call that? I'm. I was a day player.

[Craig Thomas]

You're a day player, right? I think day player.

[Josh Radnor]

Yeah. A day runner.

[Alec Lev]

I got day runner. I was a day runner. And there's a certain rate for a day runner. And miraculously, you had to split those two scenes onto two different days. One running down the street day and one elevator day. So a. I got paid for two days. So I thank you very much for it. I thank Michael Shea for the scheduling of that.

[Josh Radnor]

You know, this is something that I think this is just. This is just inside baseball stuff. People don't understand that locations are kind of everything in terms of shooting and scheduling and making the thing. So when you're watching Alec, Todd and Valerie run down the street, try to beat Lily and Marshall, and then. Right, cut to the elevator. The magic of it is they stitch that together, but that's two separate days. The wardrobe keeps track of the outfits. They keep track of where the sweat was on the T shirts. You know, I mean, it's really. That's what continuity is. Because you're, you know, you are almost never. Are you shooting something in order. It's always, you know, it's funny How I Met yout Mother itself was non linear, but the shooting of it was incredibly non linear too.

[Craig Thomas]

It was. And I think we were the only Rewatch podcast where the producer was also on the show. At some point. I would defy anyone. I def chat GPT. Is that true? But anyway, so we have a real angle to work here, Alex. So it was your star moment. It was your star mom.

[Alec Lev]

It was my star moment. The second story is that when I'm in the elevator, there was a painting outside the set of the elevator, and I was looking at it. And so we're doing our thing and Pam goes over or yells at her microphone. She yells, alec, are you looking into the camera? Cause I guess my eyeline wasn't enough of off camera that I looked like I was very unprofessionally looking right into the camera. And then three, the much more important story is the running down the street. So Jason and I screaming at each other. We just improv that in the moment that just happened right then and there.

[Craig Thomas]

That was funny.

[Alec Lev]

But then also, I almost killed Allison a little bit. Wait, so when we're running up those steps, I grab her arm and I pull her back. And my intention was just slow her down a little, not pull Alice and Hannigan back down a flight of stairs.

[Josh Radnor]

This is why you have intimacy coordinators.

[Alec Lev]

And why I was not invited back.

[Craig Thomas]

Oh, my God. We had a 10 episode arc planned for you and you were done after that one.

[Josh Radnor]

Yeah, but if you try to kill one of the series regulars, generally you don't get invited.

[Alec Lev]

Generally. Generally they don't hold you back. So I just. I got up the stairs. Apologize profusely for this moment.

[Craig Thomas]

Did she almost fall? Did she almost fall down the stairs?

[Alec Lev]

She gets pulled back. It's not okay.

[Josh Radnor]

But that's the take that. That's the take they chose, right? Oh, it's in there.

[Alec Lev]

Yeah. I don't think they let me do a second take. They were like, don't fucking let that guy in front of the camera again.

[Josh Radnor]

You know, funny around, looking in the camera. I remember, I think first season, Jason had a friend who worked with, I think, Don Johnson, I think I'm remembering this correctly. And Don Johnson said, we gotta go again. I buzzed the lens, which means I looked directly into camera.

[Craig Thomas]

Yeah.

[Josh Radnor]

And I'd never heard that. That phrase before, but it became a runner. Nine years, we'd say, sorry, I buzzed the lens. You know, I looked right into camera. So that's what you were doing, Alec, you were buzzing the lens.

[Craig Thomas]

I thought that was the phrase, like the Universal Hollywood phrase, I buzzed the lens. Is that it?

[Josh Radnor]

Might be, but I didn't. That was my first time I heard it. Kind of like these dogs are barking. I'd never heard that before.

[Craig Thomas]

Lily said, these dogs are barking. Bust in my apple bag.

[Alec Lev]

Unfortunately, I actually have no other.

[Josh Radnor]

That's it.

[Alec Lev]

That's the end of that story.

[Craig Thomas]

Did you pull her arm out of her socket? You would think she'd get injured. On Buffy. Not how I met your mother, but you want you. Somehow she fought so many vampires and demons, but Alec Lev almost kills Alison Hattigan.

[Alec Lev]

Yeah, the behind the scenes video guy almost kills her. Also, there is a moment around season eight or nine that there was a great reason to bring me back. I don't remember it now this would.

[Craig Thomas]

Be such a better story.

[Alec Lev]

It'll be good like three years from now when we get to it.

[Craig Thomas]

I promise. Okay, well, okay. You have time. You have time to work.

[Alec Lev]

I'll remind you why you should have brought me back.

[Josh Radnor]

Well, Todd and Valerie could have been another Stewart in Victoria, but because you tried to kill Ally, they had to make a very tough call.

[Craig Thomas]

You tried. You don't kill Allison Hannigan, man. You don't do it. Rule number one of show business. All right, well, you were. You were great.

[Josh Radnor]

Where did the. Where did Van Smoot house come from? Do you remember, like, where that originated? Such a great name.

[Craig Thomas]

I think Van Smoot was like, sorry.

[Alec Lev]

Are we done with me? Okay, we're done.

[Josh Radnor]

We're done.

[Alec Lev]

Okay.

[Craig Thomas]

You were great. It was fantastic.

[Josh Radnor]

We. We bled that stone dry. It's good.

[Craig Thomas]

It's. But yeah, I think it was an actual name of like maybe Ira or somebody knew some wealthy family called that.

[Josh Radnor]

I think.

[Craig Thomas]

I think it was based on. I'm sure we could look this up. I think it was like a real wealthy family name of some. Some from somewhere, but I can't remember.

[Josh Radnor]

Ah.

[Craig Thomas]

I almost want to look it up right now.

[Josh Radnor]

It's very old money. Very. It's a very fun. It's both funny and sounds kind of real. You know what's funny? I don't know who Todd and Valerie are, but it's funny. Like when you're writing something. Like I'm writing a script and I needed names of two kids, like a six year old and a four year old brother and sister. And I just use Caleb and Addie cause they're friends of mine who are married. I just think it's funny when you can always do little shout outs to your friends when you're writing something. I was just wondering if Todd and Valerie were friends of Ira's or something.

[Craig Thomas]

Oh, I don't know. Of course. I just tried to look up Van Smoot and it's like, oh, all How I Met yout Mother references. But I think it was a real family because it becomes the Cat Captain's last name. But we'll get there.

[Josh Radnor]

But isn't it funny that. That it's. It fictionally buried the real Van Smoot because it. The show got so popular.

[Craig Thomas]

Yeah, it's. Yeah, we took it over. Yeah. So. And this is the episode where we meet Scooter, which is another notable appearance. We meet Scooter, who is played wonderfully by David Burka. And that is the third how much Mother main cast, significant other. Spouse. Yeah. And he's great as Lily's high school boyfriend, Scooter. I would argue that the Lily Scooter stuff and how it kind of informs Lily's feeling of cold feet that she's developing about her wedding, it's kind of the deepest, most important part of this episode. This episode's kind of like a fun one there. These late 20 somethings try to sneak into a high school prom. It's a fun bit. It's kind of, you know, it's like a lighter episode, but there's this heavy undercurrent that's actually really interesting, you know, based on Lily having fun, felt suffocated by being in too serious of a relationship in high school, deciding she wants to get to college and not do that and just be a little bit freer, a little bit like, you know, let's ease into being fully adult and fully committed. And then of course, you know, day one at Wesleyan, she meets Marshall, which is this wonderful scene of seeing them in college. And that meet cute. I love how sweet that scene is. But also that it does play with this slight discordant note. Right. Because it's sort of, it's very sweet to see. And it's also planting this little time bomb that's going to go off later in the season in a few episodes at the end of the season of Marshall and Lily running into some problems and Lily wondering if things are moving a little too fast in her life and if she's kind of breaking a promise that, you know, 17, 18 year old her made to herself by doing that. And that's the deeper part of this.

[Josh Radnor]

And this old man, he must admit he fell in the wind. New York City.

[Craig Thomas]

And now commercials.

[Josh Radnor]

Craig, one of my favorite tweets. Hey, do we still call them tweets? Like is it.

[Craig Thomas]

It was a tweet when you read it.

[Josh Radnor]

It was a tweet when I read it. And it said, it said, why do people always say New York City smells like pee? And never my pee smells like the greatest city in the world.

[Craig Thomas]

You know why? Because pee doesn't have a good adage. There's not a good marketing campaign for pee itself.

[Josh Radnor]

No, until now. Until now. That's right. But we're not talking about human pee. I think they're talking about human pee. But we're talking about.

[Craig Thomas]

I'd rather talk about cat pee just while we're here. I made the time.

[Josh Radnor]

But it gets in the way of those beautiful smells of spring that we talked, you know, we've talked about it.

[Craig Thomas]

Really does gets in the way. Look here. Here's the three thing. Pretty Litter, right? Are you with me, Pretty Litter? If you've got a cat, get Pretty Litter. That's the quick version. You could fast forward at this point if you want.

[Josh Radnor]

I'm responding in agreement.

[Craig Thomas]

Yeah. Pretty Litter gives you peace of mind. It changes color. This is my favorite part of Pretty Litter. It changes color to indicate early signs of potential illnesses in my cat. I don't have a cat. It's Schrodinger's cat. Really? Like urinary tract infections, kidney issues and more. I both have and don't have a cat. Josh. Yeah, and now I'm reading Josh's lines.

[Josh Radnor]

No, no, no. I want to pop out. You missed something so important.

[Craig Thomas]

Okay.

[Josh Radnor]

Pretty Litter's non clumping formula traps odor and moisture. It's ultra absorbent, it's lightweight, low dust, and one six pound bag works for up to a month.

[Craig Thomas]

Oh, my God. I can't believe I skipped non clumping. Because that is our favorite hyphenated word we've gotten to discover through our relationship with Pretty Loader guys. It helps keep your house smelling fresh and clean. Try it and you'll love it. Go to prettyloader.com hwmym those letters stand for How We Made youe mother. To save 20% on your first order and get a free cat toy. That's prettyloader.comhwmym to save 20% on your first order. Free cat toy. I'm gonna keep saying that. Apparently. No, I'm not. Predol.com whitm terms and conditions apply. C site for details Non clumping Pretty.

[Alec Lev]

Litter cannot detect every feline health issue or prevent or diagnose diseases. A diagnosis can only come from a licensed veterinarian. Terms and conditions apply. See site for details.

[Craig Thomas]

End of commercials back to show.

[Josh Radnor]

Well, I love that an episode, a more serious episode, has these bursts of hilarity in them. Or conversely, you have these episodes that are largely comedy driven, that really, oh, hi, Nelson. Like, really shocks you. Really shocks you almost with the gravitas of it. But I also think it goes right into the vein of a pretty important theme of How I Met yout Mother, which is, how much do I honor or work on myself versus how much do I work on partnering? How much do I give up of myself within a partnership? How much do I fight to hold on to my individuality or these other dreams? How much am I willing to sacrifice in regards to making a relationship work or looking for One. And I think that I thought this was so smart because Ted is the one who seems like he's in upheaval, in the unknown. And from the get go, Marshall and Lily are the settled ones both. The question of who they're going to be with is settled, and they're settling with each other. That looks like. Well, that was a done deal. Like Robin says, everyone wants what you have. Right. And I thought it was again, like the what How I Met yout Mother does Best, which is. It's not all one thing. Nothing is ever one thing. You know, and I, and I think we mistrust. You know, it's almost like, like, like how wife guys on. On social media get a lot of. Because they're like, they're always talking about how great their wife is and how great their marriage is. It's like, it's always. They're gonna have an affair, like within. You're not gonna get exposed within the year. Like, I, I think. I think we, we've learned to mistrust anything that does not paint with more colors.

[Craig Thomas]

Yeah. And there's this interesting switch that's happening where Ted and Robin are starting to have this detente and trouble is brewing for Marshall and Lilly. And that's a very important kind of the paths crossing. There's kind of these two different wavelengths kind of crossing there. And yeah, nothing is all one thing. Right? And even Lily says, I'm not having doubts about Marshall. I'm having doubts about me. And that's that idea of you're in your late 20s and are you fully you yet? Has the cement dried on you? Are you an adult yet? Are you the thing you thought you were gonna be? Is this the moment you should be most chasing your dream or most realizing? Like, in real life, you don't do every single dream. You know, you trade off, you trade one thing for another, or you adjust your dream to include this other person and settling down with them. And she's really having that late 20s crisis that I think so many people have that I think we all probably have in some way. I really don't feel like I was a full grown up till like maybe yesterday morning. It's just like your late 20s, you're still so in progress, right? I mean, you're in progress your whole life, hopefully. But Lily's really having a moment here, and it really plants a seed that's going to inform the end of the season in a huge way.

[Josh Radnor]

It's also a question about partnership, I think. You know, there's two active Forces in why we partner. One, we meet the right person. Two, it's the right time in our life to kind of do it, you know. And sometimes I feel, especially for people who. I felt like my. My older sister married her college boyfriend. They didn't get together until their junior year, but she met him on the first day of, like, on the orientation bus, like the first year orientation bus. And they were friends for two years. And they've been married for years and years and years. And I don't know if she ever questioned that. But sometimes I think when you meet someone so young, you could be like, right person, wrong time, like it's too early, but this is the right person for me. Then I think you have to engage in a process of. What's the word? Like co. Growth. Growth, like where you're. You're growing with someone or alongside someone, and the hope is that you're growing somewhat directionally similarly, because a lot of times you can. 1. You know, I've heard it said that relationships where two people are committed to growth, work can work. Relationships where neither are committed to growth also can work. But a relationship where one person is committed to growing and the other is not, will not work.

[Craig Thomas]

Yeah, that's. That's right.

[Josh Radnor]

Yeah. I think Lily is having a crisis of timing. She's not like, she even says, I'm not having a crisis about the man. I'm having a crisis about the time. And I think, like, this is one of the things about aging. Now, I didn't start feeling this until I was approaching 40, but there is a feeling, I think when you age, especially as you. As you enter into middle age, whereas. And this is something I was exploring in. In my movie, liberal arts, but when you're in college or high school or even just out of college, everything feels possible. Like. Like there's so many doors you could walk through. You know, you could pivot, you could be like, oh, I studied this, but I now want to do this. That that is still all kind of allowed, but by the time you hit or approaching 40, even sometimes your mid-30s, you've made choices that have real consequences to them. Whether you had kids, you've lived a long time in a certain city, you've had a career that's taken amount of distance, might be really hard to leave and pivot into a new career. So I think that one of the things. If you're going to talk about aging, and I think because how I met your mother ran for so long, we ended up dealing with aging maybe even more Specifically, than you guys had set out to at the beginning. But one of the big questions around aging and time is we don't have all the time in the world to live all the stories we want to live. You know, we can't marry everyone we're attracted to or everyone we have some feeling of chemistry or connection with. Right. Like that. That would be impossible. We don't. We'd need multiple lifetimes. So we have to make these choices. And when you make choices, you naturally. Doors snap shut.

[Craig Thomas]

Slap.

[Josh Radnor]

You know, they slam shut. And there's a. It's. I don't know if I've talked about this, but. Dear Sugar, Cheryl Strayed. Who is. If you haven't read Tiny Beautiful Things. Have you read that book, either of you? It's. No, I haven't read it. Incredible. But she. She wrote Wild. And she also had this advice column called Dear Sugar. And one of her most beautiful letters is about a guy. He's there. He's entering his late 30s. He's with a woman. They're both around the same age. They're both incredibly happy. They don't want to be with anyone else. They want to stay together. They don't know if they should have kids or not. They could make equally compelling arguments about having kids or not having kids. So they're really at this, like, fork in the road kind of crisis moment. And they're like, we have to decide. And so they. The guy writes her and turns her, and she said, you will make a choice, and you'll be standing on the shore one day of looking out at the sea. And she calls it the ghost ship that didn't carry us. Like, off in the distance, there'll be this ship going by with your other life, the other choice that you didn't make, you know, and you kind of just stand on the shore of your own choice and your own life. And you have to salute that ship and you have to grieve on some level that you're not on that ship, because there's. There's heartbreak either way, you know, And I think that's something. There are. There are concessions. There are trade offs. Every big decision we make is laced with a kind of grief and a kind of relief and a kind of celebration. So it's just a. I think she's asking herself the biggest questions you could be asking. They're appropriate questions.

[Craig Thomas]

Well, look, I mean, at the very beginning of this episode, we saw Lily almost die when Alec almost killed her. So her whole life flashed.

[Josh Radnor]

It threw her into a deep Existential crisis.

[Craig Thomas]

I could have died because of Alec. Lev. No. But I think one thing I like about Lily's journey in this one is like, she's been the rock for everybody. You know what I mean? She's always everybody's rock. She's Marshall's rock. She's the moral center of this group. We've seen her spend the whole season kind of being the moral grounding of this group. I'm so struck by that. On this rewatch, Lily is the moral center of this group. She is the person that everyone looks to for gravity and the North Star and the compass. And she, in this one, is realizing I've been that for everybody for a long time. I feel like I rushed into things a little more than I had planned when I broke up with my high school boyfriend, who was trying to make me marry him and go to umpire school with him and live in Staten Island. And now I found this wonderful man, Marshall, who I do love and is the right guy. But it feels all a little and fast forward. And something about moving that wedding date up by many, many months and putting that piece, additional piece into fast forward makes her realize, like, my whole 20s have been a little bit in fast forward. I've always been the grounded one. When do I get to freak out? And the answer is in the next episode. And it's very human. And Lily gets to be human and flawed in a way that I think really dimensionalize as her, because no one is always the grounded, you know, gravitational center she has. She's a human being, too.

[Josh Radnor]

Well, sometimes, you know, we do this in our family, but I think we also do this in friend groups or our chosen or horizontal family. We fall into these roles, you know, and Lily, from the moment. From the moment this show started, plays the role of the mother hen. The wise. The wise, the moral center, the moral compass. She's the voice of reason often. And it's almost like she's rebelling against that role. Like, wait, wait, wait a minute. I actually don't know as much. And I think it's a great truth that we can often see so clearly other people's lives and what they need to do more than we can see our own. We have a deep blind spot when it comes to ourselves. So I think she just reaches the end of I've got it all figured out. I know. And she just, just. It's almost like a. I don't know, it was like a time release capsule. This kind of crisis that she was just needing to have.

[Craig Thomas]

Yeah. And she gets to have. And she. Right, she like. And the way it's going to throw a bomb into this whole group when their moral center, when their gravity that's all holding them on the surface of the Earth, when she freaks out. There's a great moment in Jaws where like they bring in like the shark expert guy and it's like, ah, good, we got the shark expert guy. He's the shark hunting expert. He's going to get the shark and then he dies and the shark gets him. It's like, fuck. If the shark expert guy's gone, we're really fucked here. It's a little bit like Lily is about to sort of get eaten by like the late 20s shark here and kind of have her own freak out. And I like how it casts everybody a little bit out of their gravitational pull in season two. And that's what season two's about.

[Josh Radnor]

I'm not. I'm about. I got one foot in kind of like astrology, whatever, and then the other foot's like, I don't know. But there is something called the Saturn Return, which is this idea that from when you're 27 to 29, somewhere in there, the planets kind of realign of how they were roughly when you were born. So people say in those years 27 to 29, which is literally the first three seasons of how I Met yout Mother.

[Craig Thomas]

True.

[Josh Radnor]

One of two things happens. Either where you've been working and what you've been doing kind of gathers some steam and you feel some wind at your sails. Like things start really moving because you were on a path that you paid your dues and doors start flying open. Or you realize your ladder's been parked up against the wrong wall and you have to climb down and put it up against a wall that feels more aligned. So it almost feels a lot of you could do. I'm sure someone has done this. You could do a kind of astrological breakdown of the Saturn returns of all these characters and what's going on for them. It feels like it's. That feels.

[Craig Thomas]

Stay tuned for our bonus episode where we just do that.

[Josh Radnor]

Let's get an astrologer on here to break that down. Okay. Well, we are now at a beloved segment of the show which we call Questions and Observations from a Clinical Psychologist who's never seen How I Met Her Mother and Also Happens to be married to Josh.

[Jordana (Clinical Psychologist)]

My favorite part of this episode was when Lily was exploring the road, not taking the life that was in certain ways sacrificed when she met Marshall and made the choice to be with him, it reminds me of something I often say to patients, which is that with every choice, even the good ones, there's grief, because whenever you say yes to one thing, you're also simultaneously saying no to all the other options. So I'm wondering if you can identify with that feeling, you know, perhaps in your careers and if so, when. I also want to note that this was another episode, sort of like Belly Full of Turkey, that highlighted that despite the show being about looking for love and the idealization of finding that person through Marshall and Lily's relationship, you wisely don't let us stay in that fantasy for too long. You show us that people in good and strong relationships have their own struggles, too, which I really appreciate.

[Craig Thomas]

I love that point. That is. Yeah, that's what this was about. That's what this episode was.

[Josh Radnor]

You know, Alec, I meant to talk to you about this, that we should probably play Jordana's questions a little earlier in the episode because she always points out, by the time you get to my question, you've covered a lot of what I said.

[Craig Thomas]

So she.

[Josh Radnor]

And it is true. But I will say this. She'll say to me, why are you taking all my. You're taking all my stuff? And I will be able to say to her, I hadn't heard your question because I hadn't listened to this.

[Craig Thomas]

No, we're.

[Josh Radnor]

Yeah.

[Craig Thomas]

I love. I love the surprise of not hearing it.

[Josh Radnor]

Yeah, I think we're both. Both. I think she, even more eloquently than I did, points up the fact that every choice is laced with grief and with sacrifice. But I do think her second point is lovely and well taken, which is anytime. And again, we did touch on it a little bit, but anytime we idealize a relationship, what is it like? Don't compare your insides to other people's outsides, kids. Like, if we. If. If we really jumped into another relationship that we looked like that we idealized or another career that we idealized, we would spend, like five minutes and go, you know what? I'll take my own problems back. Like, yeah, we're not. It's so tempting to think someone has it better than we do, but everyone has their own battles they're fighting, and no matter what, they project out into the world. World.

[Craig Thomas]

Yeah. And, yeah, this show, without saying too much about future seasons, we play with the idea in this show about the idea of the one. Right. The idea of idealizing any one thing, any one outcome, does that fit? Is that realistic? Right. There's a lot of twists and turns to Life, even when you find your person, there's a journey and life finds a way to challenge that and to make a different narrative than purely the one you had planned for yourself. And I think we see that here with Marshall and Lillian. And I think that's honest. I think that's honest. I think that's very real. And I think Lily, Lily was due for this, right? She's been a grown up. But the more we explore Lily later in series, she's been the grown up. She was kind of the grown up with her parents a little bit. She was the grown up with Scooter, she's grown up with Marshall. And she needed a moment to not have to be under that level of gravity. And I think it's really interesting. These next couple episodes are really interesting for Lilly. There's some great Ted and Lilly stuff coming up in the next one. Josh, I think you guys were really great together. In the next episode we'll talk about and yeah, I think challenging that idea of perfection and anyone's at the finish line. No one's at their finish line. Right. You're always there's, oh, life is one big marathon and you're not at the finish line really ever until the end of the end, end, end. And Marshall and Lilly, you know, they weren't done. You know, they weren't done. Nothing was all the way solved yet.

[Josh Radnor]

You know, someone said something to me about parenting. They said parenting is particularly difficult because just when you know how to parent a three month old, they're six month old. And just when you feel like you've got the hang of the one year old, they're three year old, three years old. Which necessitates a whole other level of new information. And it almost feels like like Marshall and Lily were really good at being college sweethearts. And then they got really good at being boyfriend and girlfriend who lived together with Ted in New York City. And then they had to adjust to being. And you saw Lily trying to adjust to that, you know, having the ring and what that means. And maybe guys, she wouldn't be flirting anymore. Guys wouldn't be approaching her then, oh my God, we're getting married in two months. And that's just a cold plunge that just shocks her system.

[Craig Thomas]

Yeah. And it really sets off like a little kind of ticking time bomb that takes, I really feel momentum at the end, at the end of this episode, the two of them dancing to their song and it's both sweet and ominous, was really cool. I think in this otherwise very light feeling episode, them Dancing to Good Feeling by the Violent Femmes. And there's some. There's kind of like. There's kind of jaw to bring it back to Jaws again. There's kind of like a little Jaws music playing underneath it. Sort of like emotionally. There's something I like that's very interesting to watch. I really liked that at the end of this and it spins you into the end of the season.

[Josh Radnor]

It's also the perfect song from the perfect band because Violent Femmes, even their name, like there is discordant, you know, like Violent Femmes is like.

[Craig Thomas]

There's a paradox.

[Josh Radnor]

Yeah, they're like toe tapping, fun band who are also like. They've got a darkness to them and a dissonance to them. And even singing about good feelings, there's like these, these flat notes that feel like, you know, like. Like just like they won't quite let you have the good feeling, you know? Do you have any moments, Craig, in your life that you felt like you knew you made the right choice, but you also felt the sting of the sacrifice? Every moment. Probably a lot.

[Craig Thomas]

Probably a lot of them. Probably every moment, right? I mean, yeah. I mean, it's such a tough one to answer. It's like. Like you sign up for things thinking you know what they are, right? And then they turn out to be complicated beyond what you thought. And. And you're like, this wasn't exactly what I ordered up out of the catalog. And then you have to figure out how it fits anyway. And that any choice, you can't be haunted by that grass is always greener shit because you will never get anywhere. Most of the big decisions I've made feel like the right ones. And also they're challenges and they also.

[Josh Radnor]

Have an adjustment period. You know, like when someone starts a new job or moves and they come to me kind of when they're scared. I say give it four months, give it six months. Like if you're deciding in the first couple days you will want to leave, you'll be convinced you made the wrong decision. Like we have a metabolizing kind of grace we have to give ourselves. For me, I know that, you know, sometimes you get offered two jobs at once and you feel you gotta decide. You know, I have a couple of passes that haunt me a little bit. Cause it's a sliding door. It's like, well, what if I had done that job instead of this one? Or what if I'd done that job instead of deciding to go away? Or do you know what I mean? Showbiz gives you a Lot of those moments of second guessing and self reflection. Yeah, yeah.

[Craig Thomas]

Hiring Alec Lev. I mean, I regret that he almost killed Allyson Hannigan. So it's, you know, it's. Do you look back, you. Hindsight's 20 20.

[Josh Radnor]

Also the many, many things that we haven't talked about about Alec that could give us pause. I'm kidding. Alec, take your time. You're intrepid. We love you. You're intrepid.

[Craig Thomas]

We love you.

[Josh Radnor]

Can we run through a couple things I found very funny. I loved. Oh, it is on like former Soviet Republic of Azerbaijan.

[Craig Thomas]

Such a weird line. Such a weird line.

[Josh Radnor]

Was that you? That feels like a Craig Thomas line.

[Craig Thomas]

I don't know. I don't think that was me. I think that might have been Ira. I think that might have been Ira Ungerlater, who the writer of this episode, who also play. He wrote for Friends. He's a very funny guy. One of a couple writers that wrote for Friends and Greg Maylands being the other one that also wrote for How Much yout Mother. And Ira plays the guy at the prom who sort of seems to work at the school. Who says. Who says to them and say, trying to enter. You're clearly adults. Please, please leave here. And that's. That was Ira. But I think that might have been his joke.

[Josh Radnor]

I like when. When Barney was like, it's still really awkward. Like, there was something really funny about that was funny. He understands social cues. Like, he absolutely understands it. He just won't give into it. Like, he won't participate in the awkwardness, but he'll call out the awkwardness and enjoy it. And enjoy it.

[Craig Thomas]

Hey, this is happening. This awkwardness is still happening.

[Josh Radnor]

Yeah.

[Craig Thomas]

It's Christmas morning.

[Josh Radnor]

What does. Marshall made me laugh when he said, look, they're all tuckered out the way.

[Craig Thomas]

Yeah, that was really cute. Really cute.

[Josh Radnor]

Guilty on three counts of rocking. Who said that? Was that Marshall?

[Craig Thomas]

Yeah, that was funny. Marshall talking about them talking about the 88. Who was the 88 or who were a real band? There was a couple of their real songs in here and they did a great cover of Violent Femmes here. They're awesome. We love those guys. They used their song you Belong to Me and Belly Full of Turkey too, which is a great. And the end of that episode. It's a great use of an 88 song. So they were very.

[Josh Radnor]

The 88 was kind of the How I Met yout Mother season one house band. Like, they were really like a part of the first season. I loved all the bon bonzo. The John Bonham. Like, your. Your cousin is John Bonum. So weirdly specific. And so again. But also, like, to me, as a music fan, like, being on a show that references the Led Zeppelin drummer.

[Craig Thomas]

Like, dude, that guy's my drum teacher. The whole way I know how to play drums is John Bottom. He was my.

[Josh Radnor]

Yeah.

[Craig Thomas]

From beyond the Grave drum teacher. And me and other drummers. Yeah, I played. Playing along. The Led Zeppelin 2 and 4 is basically how I learned drums.

[Josh Radnor]

Anyway, Scooter's longing to go to umpire school is so funny and so specific. Like, where did that come from? And wanting to live on Staten Island. Like, it's just such a specific dream.

[Craig Thomas]

I think I might have pitched that one because I was just. I think I just. The idea of there being an umpire school just stuck in my brain. Like, it's just some. Something I. I've always found really funny that there's an umpire school. I don't know. We just wanted Scooter to have a really weird obsession. And the fact that he looked like Kurt Cobain but wanted to be an umpire was so weird and discordant. And I can look more like Kurt Cobain. David Bertko, very funny. I can look more like.

[Josh Radnor]

I can look more like Kurt Cobain. So funny.

[Craig Thomas]

That was so funny.

[Josh Radnor]

I don't think he could have that. Great.

[Craig Thomas]

David's very funny.

[Josh Radnor]

I don't think he could have.

[Craig Thomas]

He really looked a lot like Kurt Cobain.

[Josh Radnor]

Where did. I also think it's funny to kind of invent your own colloquialisms. Like, disco was a really funny bit.

[Craig Thomas]

Well, that's a. Because it was in, like, 1996. That's a straight up Pulp Fiction reference. That's our boy, Quentin Tarantino, who we love and who is a How I Met yout Mother fan, which delights us to no end. Because there's a little moment in Pulp Fiction which is obviously as mid-90s as it gets, and where I think she's steering John Travolta to find where the bar is, to pour himself a drink while she's up getting ready. And she. She's like, warm, warmer, disco. And just that idea that Uma Thurman says disco. I think we just took that and said that Lily saw Pulp Fiction and started saying disco for a while after seeing it. That's the backstory of why she says disco.

[Josh Radnor]

Do you know what's funny in that? She actually has the Uma Thurman Pulp Fiction haircut.

[Craig Thomas]

She looks like Uma Thurman. She has Uma Thurman haircut. So she says disco. That's.

[Josh Radnor]

That is.

[Craig Thomas]

That's why. Yeah, that's it.

[Josh Radnor]

I like when Scooter says, we're going to be an umpire someday.

[Craig Thomas]

We're gonna. No bad. We're gonna be an upset line. Yeah.

[Josh Radnor]

Yeah. It's so funny when I think it's Marshall and Ted are talking to I don't know who. But you're seeing Barney climb through that window. And then security. Like, he thinks he made it, and then security drags him off. Yeah, there's something. I don't know how you describe that in the comedy playbook.

[Craig Thomas]

Zucker Butters. It's a Zucker Butters joke. Yeah, it's Airplane.

[Josh Radnor]

Exactly. But it's in the foreground. The characters are pretty serious, and they're just doing the plot. And in the background, you see something insane going on. But the audience is supposed to. Their eyes are supposed to go to the background.

[Craig Thomas]

Naked Gun. Airplane. I would say, like, that was very. We 100% in the writer's room said, like, let's do that. Let's do Airplane. Let's do Zucker Brothers. It's the deep background joke. And yeah, I mean, it's sort of silent comedies here. It's a little Buster Keaton almost.

[Josh Radnor]

I love that dorm room scene. I think it's so sweet.

[Craig Thomas]

And.

[Josh Radnor]

And Jordana was very affected by it. I thought the. That lesbian kiss was so sweet, that kiss. But we know when they talk about, I've never had a lesbian kiss and then Kobe goes in and kisses her, I would have. If we were doing it today and I was, and you asked me, I would have cut the line about field hockey. Huh?

[Craig Thomas]

Yeah. Yeah, me too. I don't think you needed it.

[Josh Radnor]

I just would have let the kiss be the kiss. You know what I mean? Like, there's something so sweet about, like, I'll give you your. I'll give you your kiss. You know, there. There didn't have to be a comment on it.

[Craig Thomas]

The other reason we should go cut that line is that it fought the idea that Robin never played team sports, which she had said to Ted on the roof in Slutty Pumpkin. So it was. It was an unneeded treacle cutter, because that was a moment. The treacle, the sweet moment could have just stood. And also, it kind of contradicted something that we had said, like, in the same season. So, yes, we're going to go. We'll fix it in post. We're gonna go cut that right now.

[Josh Radnor]

This is. What's it. Taylor. Taylor's. Versions of her album. We're gonna do Josh and Craig's versions.

[Craig Thomas]

Yeah. We're gonna going to take out every stupid thing we ever said that offended anybody. And also inconsistencies. All right. Good job. The Alec episode, Ladies and gentlemen, the Alec episode.

[Josh Radnor]

Great work, Alec. This is this episode was is dedicated to our friend Alec Lev. Well, we're just about at the end of the episode and as ever, we like to start these episodes with a voice note from from people letting us know what how I met your mother means to them. And then we end with a written note from people letting us know the same. If you would like to contribute to this and project this ongoing project we're doing and maybe have your letter read on the air or your voice note played at the beginning of the show, please go to www how we made your mother hw mym h w my m dot com and go to go to contact and follow all the instructions. We'd be delighted to hear from you. And today we have a wonderful letter that Craig Thomas is going to read. Take it away, Craig.

[Craig Thomas]

Yeah, this one is from Apple Podcasts and we're very grateful for anybody that goes on and reviews the show on Apple Podcasts, especially if you say nice things and if you write one, we might read it on the show and it helps the show, it helps the show grow and it helps us get promoted on there. So please also get to us this way. For example, here's one from Robert. Robert W. Rogers. The title was exactly what we needed. Great timing as well. So I have high hopes that this will be positive. This was absolutely grand. I love how formal it starts. Josh. This was absolutely grand. Sounds a bit British maybe. Best idea since the show went off the air. The best way to relive the sitcom beginning to end in a new way for repeat viewers. Lol. The behind the scenes tidbits and commentary episode by episode scenes spoken over entire episodes in a weekly format again, that will focus on episodes in order for all 207 episodes. Yes. So special. We will try to do all of them for you. By the way. That is our goal. It can't be binged or consumed in a weekend and I can't put away and come back after they've finished because I'll be returning each week for the latest episode. And I love this because the slow burn over a period is how sitcoms worked. Especially these types of shows where there's actual depth and emotional range, expansive storylines evolving over decades a sitcom. It's still wild to me that a comedic sitcom managed to become so much more than that, and they succeeded far beyond why. Thank you. Friends had its moments. I love that. Now we're going. I'm nervous. Like is it going to compare us to Friends? Okay, I'm just going to power through. Friends had its moments. It had some sad scenes, deeper stories, flashbacks, true character depth, yes, but Himyim went a new level with it and managed to get it right despite flashbacks and jumping scenes all episode long, all series long. But they did it and it worked. And the ability to intrigue, keep mystery questions open, lasting 6, 7 years, a half hour sitcom managed to be into all of them. That despite being the real classical type sitcom, the Friends, Seinfeld, Cheers style comedic show, it fit that precisely, but also in its own way. Same way Friends brought its own vibe to the classic style in the 1990s. Himyum did a modern spin, but it was every bit the traditional broadcast primetime network sitcom and so much more. So there's a lot to unpack and dig into. And since much of the staff, not to mention the crew, creators and writers, do very little presser interviews, do we we do some stuff. Come on. The deep talk and reflection over the show never really happened, but it's now off the air for just over 10 years. It's a fantastic time to do this. Plenty of post hymn life reflection, introspection experiences amongst cast and crew. Getting their recollection and tidbits from the other side of the show is fascinating. So I'm game. I'm here for it and I'll be here till all 207plus episodes are dropped here. Thank you Robert. That is a lovely message and we appreciate it. Thank you Robert. The review on Apple Podcast Podcasts Keep them coming y'.

[Josh Radnor]

All. Yeah. Thanks everyone. See you next time. I am guilty. Please acquit me. All sins are forgiven in New York City.

[Alec Lev]

How We Made youe Mother is hosted and executive produced by Josh Radner and Craig Thomas. The show was produced by me, Alec Lev and our co producer is Doug Matica. Our audio producer and mixer is Alex Reeves at Point of Blue Studios and our digital Content producer, AKA Gen Z Master is Emily Blumberg. Artwork by John Morrow. Please follow rate and review the show on Apple Podcasts or your podcast player of choice. It really does help the show. Our theme song is NYC by our own Josh Radner with additional music by Craig Thomas and Andrew Meduski. Special special thanks to Lola Kennedy and Elliot Connors. Visit how we madeyourmother.com to sign up for our substack mailing list and for links to our social media. You can also click on the contact page to send us an email or a voice message. Your stories and questions are an important part of the show.

[Josh Radnor]

Want some merch?

[Alec Lev]

Click on the store link or go to howyougetyourmerch.com subscribe to Josh Radner's Muse Letters on Substance. Order Craig Thomas debut [e-mail] novel and you can subscribe to My Dead Fathers Society, also on Substack, to learn about how you make a difference. This show's ongoing campaign to raise money for congenital heart disease research. Check out the Make a Difference tab at the top of our website. This episode was made possible by the support of Backyard Ventures. People will, in fact dance the real.

[Josh Radnor]

Question it just hit me. Am I in love with you or just New York City? If you know your party's Extension, press or say 1 to leave a message in our company mailbox, press or say 2. Spoiler alert. It will be full representative. Would you speak to your mother in that tone?

[Craig Thomas]

Speak to a real human being.

[Josh Radnor]

You shouldn't need to shout into the void to get your health insurance questions answered. Pacific Source Health Plans this is a real person. How can I help you?

[Jesse]

Human service, not automated phone trees.

[Josh Radnor]

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[Craig Thomas]

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[Josh Radnor]

That's why it's good to have Grainger on your side. With industrial grade products and next day delivery, Grainger helps ensure you have everything.

[Craig Thomas]

You need close at hand through every.

[Josh Radnor]

Step of the installation. Call 1-800-GRAINGER click granger.com or just stop by Grainger for the ones who get it done.