How Marshall Met the Apocalyptic Wasteland | S2E2 "The Scorpion and the Toad"

Summary

How We Made Your Mother – S2E2: "The Scorpion and the Toad"

Podcast Date: October 27, 2025
Hosts: Josh Radnor & Craig Thomas
Main Episode Covered: How I Met Your Mother, Season 2 Episode 2 – “The Scorpion and the Toad”

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Episode Overview

In this engaging installment, Josh Radnor and Craig Thomas dive deep into Season 2, Episode 2, "The Scorpion and the Toad," exploring its dark comedic themes, psychological depth, and the enduring comfort (and discomfort) HIMYM provides for fans around the world. Through listener letters and their own behind-the-scenes insights, they dissect Barney’s complex character, Marshall’s heartbreak, Lily’s emotional journey, and the show’s subtle literary references. Along the way, they celebrate fan connections (shout-out to Brazil!), discuss the art of sitcom writing, and reflect on the show’s legacy as both a “comfort show” and a “take a leap show.”

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Global Impact and Comfort (01:36–06:50)

• Listener Letter from Brazil: The episode opens with a heartfelt message from Aline, a Brazilian fan who shares how HIMYM helped her through anxious transitions as a teenager and again during her psychology residency.—“...the show really helped me to understand that not only my feelings were valid, but also that I could trust myself and that I should trust the process...” (01:36)
• Josh reflects on touring Brazil with his band, discovering firsthand the show's global resonance.—“It was the first time I really learned that Brazilians love How I Met Your Mother.” (03:43)
• Universality of Themes: Both hosts discuss how the show's psychological universals—love, forgiveness, growth—resonate across cultures and backgrounds.
• Craig: “It’s people’s comfort show, but paradoxically, it’s also their ‘take a leap’ show.” (05:35)
• They unpack what it means for a “comfort” show to often put its characters into profound discomfort.

2. On Being Messy, No Winners Circle (06:50–09:04)

• Josh notes, “There’s no such thing as a winner’s circle. We think we’re going to get to a place where we feel resolved and successful, and it just never happens.” (07:08)
• The hosts reflect on the show’s theme: the ongoing journey is more important than neatly tying up life with a bow. This is why the series couldn’t just be “told in 15 minutes”—it’s about process, not just endpoints.

3. Episode Background: Scorpion and the Toad (09:17–14:49)

• The episode they dissect is the season’s second: written by Chris Harris, who’s celebrated for his wordplay and narrative cleverness.
• Classic Chris Harris Moment: The team highlights the episode's "double dialogue" gag—Lily's two San Francisco stories sound the same on the surface, but take on wild new meaning on repeat viewing.
• Craig recounts, “Chris had this knack...of just being very playful and clever, really using the narrator to shape jokes.” (09:56)
• HIMYM as educational tool: Teachers use clips to demonstrate English stress/emphasis shifts.

4. Psychology of Barney: Scorpion’s Nature (14:49–23:32)

• Parable Analogy: The fable of the scorpion and the toad forms the episode’s moral and narrative backbone, with Barney in the role of the destructive—but compulsive—scorpion.
• Is Barney a sociopath or just unable to escape his "nature"? The hosts debate:
  • Craig: “Is Barney a sociopath?...Barney cannot stop himself from continually stealing these women...it’s almost American Psycho.” (17:25)
  • Josh: “In some ways, it is a kinder narrative to speak of it in terms of compulsion or addiction...he’s powerless.” (20:11)
• They explore how the show was initially under pressure to make everyone "likable", but this script runs darker, testing the boundaries of the sitcom genre.

5. Marshall, Lily, and Emotional Growth (23:32–27:44)

• The importance of Marshall walking away from Lily: After being emotionally battered by Barney, Marshall is able to stand more firmly with Lily, not simply taking her back right away.
• Craig: “Did he get some of that strength from going through that with Barney?” (21:24)
• Lily’s game improv skills and the joyful stupidity of physical comedy—especially with the “identical twin” ruse for Barney’s comeuppance.

6. Writers' Room Stories & Bit Construction (27:51–32:50)

• Behind-the-scenes look: The “candy names for breasts” montage is actually inspired by real writers’ room banter—burning through as many (terrible) jokes as possible.
• Josh: "You get an idea that feels comedically fertile and you just write it...take it as long as you can." (29:16)
• The dynamic of HIMYM’s comedy: finding gold not just in punchlines, but in attitudes and character-specific moments.

7. Character Dynamics & Evolving Relationships (38:13–40:40)

• The Marshall/Lily/Ted/Robin shift—how, in times of crisis, group energy is triaged to those "bleeding out" emotionally, and how this keeps the ensemble feeling real.
• Josh: “It’s like triage...the energy has to go to the person who’s bleeding out, you know?” (39:31)
• Early-season bliss: Noting the rare, relaxed depiction of Ted and Robin as a couple.

8. Barney as Archetype: Toxic Masculinity & The Addictive Persona (43:40–47:31)

• The episode pushes Barney’s selfishness to its dark comedic edge—“Barney is deeply shitty in this episode,” says Josh (43:40).
• Craig: “This is the darkest, worst part of Barney...But I think we start to see...if you peel back the layers on anybody who puts up that much bravado, you can find the humanity underneath.” (46:05)
• They connect Barney’s "brand" and bravado to modern male archetypes (“manosphere,” Trumpian energy), and the show's long-term effort to show his scars and humanity.

9. Literary Layers and Respect for the Viewer (16:19–17:25)

• HIMYM’s layers aren’t just for laughs—viewers can appreciate Steinbeck, Fitzgerald, or fable references. The show’s intelligence rewards careful, repeat viewing.
• Josh: “You give people multiple layers through which to experience and enjoy this thing...not leading them in a way that was insulting.” (16:19)
• Respect for the audience’s intelligence: playful storytelling as a gift, not an obstacle.

10. Fan Touchpoints & Feedback (48:00–49:24)

• Listeners from around the world write in—shout-outs to supporters in Atlanta, Germany (where this episode’s title translates as “New Life, Old Mistakes”), and a fan letter on relating to Lily’s creative doubts and ambition.
• Amanda: “Chasing my silly art dream is what Lily would want.” (53:08)
• Josh’s note: “I don't think your art dream is silly... you can drop that modifier.” (54:12)

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On universality:

  “One of the reasons the show transcends geography and race and ethnicity is because it deals with these psychologically universal concepts: how do we get older, how do we let go, how do we forgive, how do we end relationships?”
  —Josh Radnor (04:34)

• On life’s real lessons:

  “There’s no such thing as a winner’s circle. We think we’re going to get to a place where we’re just going to feel resolved and successful ... it just never happens.”
  —Josh Radnor (07:08)

• On Barney’s compulsions:

  “If he was actually making a choice, it’s almost worse... there’s something about the compulsivity of it ... he’s powerless.”
  —Josh Radnor (20:11)

• On strong, silent moments:

  “She kind of is like ... there’s something about her accepting her fate, the kind of karma of, like, I have to live through the discomfort of this.”
  —Josh Radnor, on Lily (27:34)

• On playful writing:

  “Chris Harris ... just being very playful and clever, and really, as much as anyone on the staff ... really using the narrator to shape jokes.”
  —Craig Thomas (09:56)

• On Barney’s brand:

  “Barney is just such a fount of confident wrongness.”
  —Josh Radnor (44:45)

• On creative ambition:

  “Chasing my silly art dream is what Lily would want.”
  —Amanda (listener letter) (53:08) “I don't think your art dream is silly... you can drop that modifier.”
  —Josh Radnor (54:12)

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Noteworthy Timestamps

• 01:36 — Listener letter from Brazil; global reach of HIMYM.
• 06:16 — Dissecting the notion of “comfort show.”
• 09:17 — Episode summary, Chris Harris credited.
• 14:49 — Recap of “Scorpion and the Toad” parable; Barney as scorpion.
• 20:11 — Debate: Is Barney a sociopath or a compulsive?
• 24:22 — The importance of Marshall not taking Lily back right away.
• 29:06 — Writers’ room origins: Candy names for breasts.
• 43:40 — “Barney is deeply shitty in this episode.”
• 46:05 — Barney’s bravado as a precursor to modern masculine archetypes.
• 48:00 — Global listener feedback, episode title translations.
• 53:08 — Listener letter: Finding inspiration in Lily's leap.

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Closing Notes

• Craig Thomas announces his novel “That’s Not How It Happened,” with Josh and Cobie Smulders featured in the audiobook narration and a plot inspired in part by his family’s experiences raising a son with disabilities. (49:30)
• Josh Radnor gives a glowing endorsement: “...the interiority was just as rich and as fun as the plot twists.” (51:27)
• Final Listener Letter celebrates Lily’s bravery and creativity (53:08), with both hosts emphasizing the legitimacy of following “unsilly” art dreams.

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Overall Tone:
Witty, reflective, generous, and deeply appreciative of the show’s fans and its cultural impact. The hosts dig into the nuances of storytelling, character failures, and emotional realism—always with an undercurrent of good-natured humor and camaraderie.

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For New Listeners:
You’ll walk away with a richer understanding of the mechanics, heart, and risks behind HIMYM’s stories—as well as the creative lives of its cast, writers, and devoted global audience.

Transcript

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[Listener Aline]

Hi guys, my name is Aline, I'm from Brazil and I've been a fan of the show for a few years now. I first started watching when I was 16. It was my senior year of high school and at the time I was having a lot of fear and anxiety because I had no idea what I wanted to do. My life. I didn't know what profession I wanted or what college. And the show was really helped me to understand that not only my feelings were valid, but also that I could trust myself and that I should trust the process that eventually things were going to work out. And now I'm 24, I'm a psychologist and I'm studying to get into residency which has given me a lot of the same feeling thoughts that I had back then. And re watching the show because of the podcast is really helping me through it again. So thank you so much. Thanks for the great advices and thanks for Always being that show that's there when I need comfort, I'm alone.

[Josh Radnor]

What a pity I won't be soon in New York City when I see you. Please permit me to tell you everything in New York City. Welcome. Welcome back to How We Made youe Mother. I'm Josh Radner. I am joined by my friend Craig Thomas. Hello, Craig.

[Craig Thomas]

Hey, Josh. Very happy to be with you.

[Josh Radnor]

Craig co created a show called How I Met yout Mother with Carter Bayes that ran on CBS from 2005 to 2014. I played Ted Mosby on that show. And we are. We are doing a deep dive. We're revisiting the show all these many years later. We are discovering gems. We're discovering things we would have done different. We're interrogating the mystery of why people from Brazil and all over the world continue to love this show. I will say that Ben, Lee and I, as Radner and Lee, we toured Brazil in 2017.

[Craig Thomas]

I think that's so cool. I don't think I ever. Yeah, tell that story.

[Josh Radnor]

It was the first time I really. I really learned that Brazilians love How I Met your mother.

[Craig Thomas]

How I Met yout Mother is huge demonstration, demonstrably huge in Brazil. We've really heard over the years so many nice things. And did you feel that love, Josh, when you were touring with Ben through there? Is that what you're saying?

[Josh Radnor]

Oh, my God. Yeah, it was. It was pretty extraordinary. I mean, our shows were incredibly packed and very, you know, some people weirdly, like, had the album hadn't been out that long. People were really singing along. But I also, like, our shows were. Spoke to a bigger fan base than our band currently had. And I'm not saying that there weren't some deep Radner and Lee fans, but there were also, also How I Met yout Mother fans there that were excited to hear the music. And it was really fun. Yeah, it was a great time. And, you know, it also, you know, the fact that the person who wrote the letter is studying to be a psychologist, I think also speaks to this thing of, like, for those people who are. You can watch How I Met yout Mother as, like, this is just a good laugh. This is a good story. But for people who are psychologically minded, I think that the show is particularly pleasing. And also this podcast, I hope, is particularly pleasing. We sometimes have guest appearances from an actual psychologist on this show. But, you know, I think that that the reason. One of the reasons that the show tends to transcend geography and race and ethnicity is because it deals with These sweeping psychologically universal concepts of how are. How. How do we get older, how do we let go, how do we forgive, how do we. For. How do we end relationships? I mean, these are things that it doesn't matter where you are, who you are, These areas. You'll hit a lot of these areas in your life.

[Craig Thomas]

Yeah. I feel like the show, we hear a lot that it's people's comfort show, but almost paradoxically, I think it's also their take a leap show. She was just talking about two moments where the show helped her take a leap. And there is that feeling of, this is a comfort show, but it's also a show that progresses. It is about time, it is about evolution, it is about becoming a perspective. And the way we frame our life, the way we become aware that our life is a story that moves forward and we get to shape that narrative to some extent. And she. I love that part of her message. Just that she said it helped her in these moments of making a leap. And the fact that. Congratulations that you've made this leap to this new career, that's wonderful. I'm so glad the show is there for you. At times.

[Josh Radnor]

It's also interesting to interrogate the idea of a comfort show. The fact that How I Met yout Mother, we hear it so much, is comforting to people, doesn't mean that the characters on the show are comfortable all the time. In fact, the characters on the show are in deep discomfort a lot.

[Craig Thomas]

They're mostly uncomfortable.

[Josh Radnor]

They're mostly uncomfortable. But what I think is comforting about it is that notion of perspective is that notion of family and community being there alongside of you and knowing that in your discomfort, you, on the other side of that discomfort, might be the life you're really longing for.

[Craig Thomas]

Yeah. It's not a show of stasis. No, the comfort of the show is not in stasis. The comfort of the show, I think, is look at how fucked up all these people are, too. Just like how I'm feeling fucked up. And there's something about the flaws and the vulnerability of these characters that I think is comforting. Even though it's a mess in a way, too.

[Josh Radnor]

It's almost like when you get to know someone you're really inspired by that you really think has either a career that's enviable or a family life or just a person in the world that you look at from afar and go, they've really figured something out. And then you get to know them over a couple meals. You're like, oh, my God, they're just as fucked up as me. Like, they're just. They have this. This same boiling insecurities, the same childhood stuff, the same everything. And you just realize, like, we're. We're successful in spite of a lot of our challenge. Not, you know, like, we. Yeah, everyone. Everyone has this stuff. You know, my friend Max always says this thing that I love, that his therapist actually told him that there's no such thing as a winner circle. You know, we think we're gonna get to a place where we're just gonna feel resolved and successful. And I finally figured it out and cracked the champagne, and it just never happens.

[Craig Thomas]

But it's the great fallacy. It's the great fallacy chasing that thing that does not exist.

[Josh Radnor]

And I think that in some ways, it's. The overarching narrative of the show is the main character was obsessed with the finish line. He's obsessed with the goalpost. Even Marshall and Lilly, the front porch. There's this idea that there's a moment when everyone's gonna exhale and just high five. But the truth of it was, the thing that was the best was the. Was truly. I mean, it's the cliche of cliches, but it was the journey. You know, it was the thing all along. That's why you could have told this story in 15 minutes is like, stop saying that. Like. No, the whole thing is it had to be unspooled in this long, ornate kind of narrative because that's where the gold is.

[Craig Thomas]

Yeah. It's funny. Sometimes we get that comment from people on the Internet, like, I love the show, but it could have all been told in 15 minutes. And I'm like, then there would have been no show for you to love. So I guess it was OK to stretch it out. Well, all of those flaws and all of those emotional ups and downs are well on exhibit in today's episode we're discussing. That was a transition.

[Josh Radnor]

It was very good. It was very good.

[Craig Thomas]

You guys feel that?

[Josh Radnor]

That was professional podcasting right there.

[Craig Thomas]

Season two, man, we're figuring it out. Alec, tell us what episode we're talking about, when it aired, and who wrote it. Yeah, absolutely.

[Alec Lev]

This is the Scorpion and the Toad. It Originally aired on September 25, 25th, 2006, and it was written by Chris Harris.

[Josh Radnor]

Chris Harris.

[Craig Thomas]

Chris Harris, one of the all timers.

[Josh Radnor]

If you're just tuning in for season two, we had Chris Harris guest on the show some point deep into season one or maybe midway through a couple of.

[Craig Thomas]

Yeah, yeah. For the episode Game Night. If you haven't heard that. Well, go back and listen to all of season one if you haven't heard it, of this podcast, how youw Made youe Mother a really. Chris was on and talked. We talked in depth about the episode Game Night, but also just about, you know, I embarrassed Chris. Chris always turns red. If you can watch the YouTube clip. If he just turns red.

[Josh Radnor]

Still handsome.

[Craig Thomas]

When he turns red, he's still very handsome. But he. Yeah, he really is one of the all time best hymn writers. And he just had this knack and you see it in this episode of just being very playful and clever and really as much as anyone on the staff, including Carter and myself, really using the narrator to shape jokes, really using the storytelling kind of superpowers, the toolkit of how you get to. And how much mother Chris is really good at that. One example in this episode, I really like the cleverness of seeing the first version of Lily's story of how great San Francisco was for her on the bus with all these wonderful characters. And then the reveal later that all the same dialogue just came out of one person's mouth who was just a really weird kind of creepy dude that she was sitting next to on the bus. That feels like a very Chris Harris joke. Just the idea of, like, all of those words will perfectly mean something entirely different the second time.

[Josh Radnor]

Well, also with the art teacher that. What he says, it's literally the same dialogue with.

[Craig Thomas]

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Sorry I mentioned that whole montage. Yeah, it's literally. It's all the words are the same for all of those beats. Yeah, I love that.

[Josh Radnor]

It reminds me of. Have you seen that thing online that's like, will you marry me is a marriage proposal? And then it's, will you marry me? Is a proposal for a foursome. Like, will you marry and me.

[Craig Thomas]

Oh, my God, that's a good one.

[Josh Radnor]

And then it was like, will you. Oh, will you marry me? Is like a caveman introduction or something like, will you marry me?

[Craig Thomas]

Mary's introducing herself to Will the caveman.

[Josh Radnor]

Like, will you marry me? Like, basically on where the stress is, where the comma is, where the. But he does that. So especially with the art teacher. I actually heard it and I was like, it's so smart the way the art teacher. It's flipped, you know.

[Alec Lev]

Can I say that we got a comment from Jen J. Tan, who said, I'm an English teacher and have used two. The two contrasting clips of Lily in San Francisco to help my students practice pronunciation. It's a great example of how changing word stress and emphasis can really affect the meaning of what you say, even when the words may be exactly the same.

[Craig Thomas]

Chris is really good at that stuff. He's written some really brilliant children's books, but they're like Shel Silverstein Ask that are for adults too. And he's just very playful with words. And I think you really see that in this episode.

[Josh Radnor]

I mean, I'm also delighted that How I Met yout Mother is being used to educate the youth of America.

[Craig Thomas]

That's amazing. I know. Skipped right over that. We hear it all the time that people learn English from this show. People? Yeah, people study it in classes in college and stuff. It's very cool. For our little CBS sitcom from 2005.

[Josh Radnor]

This is jumping a little bit ahead, but I wonder what a non native English speaker would say. What is Radonk and I wrote you this little ditty to sing to you in New York City. We'll be right back.

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[Josh Radnor]

And now back to the show. Craig, just give us a little armchair summary of what this episode's about where we last left our heroes and where we are today.

[Craig Thomas]

Yeah. So episode one of season two ends with this reveal that Lily is back from San Francisco. But nobody knows yet. Marshall has been a terrible mess all summer. He's finally starting to show some signs of life. And so we meet him in this episode where he says, I gotta get back out there somehow. Barney is very excited to make, you know, to be the wingman to Marshall now that Ted's dead to him. Cause Ted's in a relationship with Robin so far. And he's like, it's you now, Marshall. It's all been leading here, and now you're my guy. So Barney takes a marshal under his wing to get out there and meet a lady. The reason it's called the Scorpion and the Toad is there's a parable of the scorpion and the toad. That is. I guess I'll just say it because we never explained it in the episode. It is. There's a scorpion and there's a toad, and there's a stream. There's a river or something. And the scorpion says, I gotta get to the other side. Can I ride on you, Mr. Toad? And Mr. Toad says, yes, but if you were to sting me, we will both die. And the scorpion says, I'm not gonna sting you. Come on, we'll just. We'll just be a team. We'll just get across the stream together. And the toad, the sweet, sweet, poor toad, goes, okay. And he puts the scorpion on his back and starts swimming across. And halfway across the river, the scorpion stings him. And as they both start to drown, the toad says, why did you do that? And the scorpion goes, because it's my nature. And they both die. Look. And Barney is the scorpion in this episode.

[Josh Radnor]

Yeah, you know, it's. It just. It continues to delight me that you can just watch How I Met yout Mother as a show about a bunch of people in New York City at a certain time looking for love and, you know, growing up or. And you can also say, hey, that's John Steinbeck reference. That's F. Scott's Fitzgerald. That's an Aesop fable. Like. Yeah, there's. There's. You give people multiple layers through which to. To experience and enjoy this thing. And for people who are alert to those Easter eggs, you know, there's the. I know. I think it's the episode of Marshall and I won't spoil anything, but there's an episode where it's just a countdown, like, visual countdown. You see all these numbers ticking, ticking, ticking. Down. And a lot of people didn't notice that on the first watch. That's something that you, you can get alert to because it's not, it's not overly, you know, you don't hit him over the head. And I think that, that respecting the intelligence of the, of the viewer and not leading them in a way that was insulting. But, you know, like Billy Wilder said, like, letting them put two and two together, I think that's part of the pleasure of the show, especially for repeat viewings.

[Craig Thomas]

Yeah. Yeah, I hope so. That was definitely the goal. It's nice to hear you say that. I think we did all make that show. And yeah, I was impressed. Another thing that struck me about that parable and what this episode, how that episode kind of plays with that parable is it's funny. It's season two. We're trying to still build an audience. We're still getting a lot of notes, like, make sure everyone's likable, make sure the show fits right in there with King of Queens and Two and a Half Men. And it's just like, ah, it's just a fun show. But essentially this episode, and this is the daring of this episode, and it really struck me, essentially this episode's question is like, is Barney a sociopath? Like, this episode is essentially like American Psycho. You know what I mean? Barney cannot stop himself from continually stealing these women that he knows. Marshall's a mess. He knows Marshall needs a woman. He wants that for Marshall. He loves Marshall, but there's something in his nature that he just cannot resist the chance to have a conquest of his own. And of course, at the end, there's a kind of like moral debate, philosophical debate, which is probably bullshit, but Barney kind of implies. But maybe it's not entirely bullshit kind of implies. I'm doing this for your own good. I told you being single was so funny. It's like being in a candy store. It's not. It's a post apocalyptic wasteland. It's every man for himself. And that's the best lesson. That's what you need to learn having lived in the captivity of couplehood for. And I think Barney on some level does think he's offering up that lesson, but also he just wants to steal these women. And it's just so compulsive and like really crazy of him. But it's just so funny. It's kind of a dark. It's a dark storyline. It's really weird, the storyline.

[Alec Lev]

On this topic, our friend Swarlee Memes says, without giving away Barney's real motive later this season. I wanted to ask about the psychology in this episode. Barney keeps blocking Marshall even though it hurts their friendship. The fable says the scorpion stings because it's in his nature. Did you write Barney that way as someone who can't escape his nature or as someone making a choice to hurt Marshall anyway? Or neither.

[Craig Thomas]

Him.

[Alec Lev]

Spoilers. And weren't you a bit scared to make Barney come across almost like a psychopath by making him the scorpion? Please talk about this.

[Craig Thomas]

I, I, I'm surprised that we did it this early in season two, because we probably. I bet the network would have preferred we did an episode where Barney was less evil than this as episode two, just to be like, let's get more and liking everybody. But I think the episode, it has this kind of tension. It has the. And it's funny because we went this dark with Barney, and I think, like, he can't stop himself at this moment. Through the long arc of the entire series, you see Barney try to be better than this at other times, but right here, he's just not.

[Josh Radnor]

In some ways, it is a kinder narrative to speak of it in terms of compulsion or addiction. Because if he was actually making a choice, it's almost worse. It's like you're aware of what you're doing and you're hurt. But there's something about the compulsivity of it is like, to put it in addiction terms, he's powerless. He's powerless.

[Craig Thomas]

And the scorpion dies. The scorpion is powerless to stop himself and dies because he can't stop himself. So it is that part of it too. And Barney, at the end crashes and burns and gets his comeuppance and has. And, you know, we don't see him do this exact thing again. Marshall, this is the one episode where he's like this. But, yeah, I would say that that's a good question, because I think we were a little nervous doing this, but we were enamored of this idea of playing out this parable and the idea of, like, Marshall in the end. I really liked when Marshall leaves dejected and he's been absolutely eviscerated by Barney instead of lifted up by him. And that's when he runs into Lily and Lily says, can we get back together? And now Marshall has this incredible boost of power and kind of status in that scene. All of a sudden, Marshall has walked out from getting the shit kicked out of him to, like, having his dream come of. She's coming back to him a bit chastened. She admits Right off the bat, that she did not like being away from him. And apart from him, she says, will you get back together with me? And Marshall actually is a little bit hard hearted in that moment. Not cold hearted, hard hearted. He's a little bit firm. Like, no, I'm not ready. I'm not ready to just say, yes, you were the one that this was your idea. I'm not there yet. And did he get some of that strength from going through that with Barney? Did he get a little bit, like, a little bit, I don't know, like, a little bit firmer about things? Because he's just saw the reality of what it's like. I don't know. There's something about where he is emotionally when he walks out of that bar, when he runs into Lily that I think tracks. And. Yeah, I don't know. I feel like I love the way that episode ends.

[Josh Radnor]

Well, it also, I feel like there's a decision made maybe in season two where Barney isn't actually as hapless as he is with women in the first. You know, the question in the first season, we were talking early is like, is he. Does he pull all these women or does he seem.

[Craig Thomas]

He strikes out a lot.

[Josh Radnor]

He strikes out a lot in season one. It's a. You know, he's essentially a pickup artist. Right? So those guys. My friend was one of those. I don't know anything about the specifics. That guy.

[Craig Thomas]

What was that friend's name?

[Josh Radnor]

His name was Hash Padner. No, No, I was not. I just want to be clear. I'm not. I was never a part of pickup culture. But I do know that part of it is becoming immune to rejection. Like it's a numbers game, right? Like, you just cycle through and you. You train yourself to not have your ego shattered by a rejection because you just keep going. And he, he does seem to be on that. But there, there. There is something in this episode that he. And in later episodes, especially this season, where he is, he does get the women. You know, even his whole apartment being structured around getting women out, you know, after the one night stand. So, you know, there was a choice that you guys made. And I don't know where and how that choice was made, but it started to be like he wasn't just all talk.

[Craig Thomas]

Yeah, he started like, in this episode, he successfully, if we believe take him at his word, he successfully hooks up with all of these women, stealing them from Marshall. And it probably is the episode in which he's most successful in series by having done that. And it Was just a plot mechanism to play out the scorpion and the toad of it all. Marshall just keeps being that toad and keeps thinking, Barney's gonna do the right thing. But it did make him more successful than I sometimes like him to be. I actually like him when he fails better.

[Josh Radnor]

Well, he's more sympathetic. He stays in the kind of heart of the audience a little bit more than when he. But I will say, I think you guys did something very smart at the end, which is you had to give him a comeuppance. You had to give him a humiliation at the end. So it would be like, you know. And also the one too, like, using Lily. Like, it's very smart.

[Craig Thomas]

I really loved. I'd forgotten that. I forgot what we did kind of at the end. And I was like, oh, that's clever. Maybe it hit me more than it did when we did it, which is just. It was actually very important. We wanted this episode to end with Marshall and Lily not getting back together. We just wanted that condition to last longer because it was. It was a good story motor to show these two characters apart for a while. And it also just felt honest. It wasn't like, now she's back and the summer's over. So now she's back. And it was that easy. We wanted it to maybe seem like it was going that way and then to not go that way. And I really liked that they didn't get back together. But there was a sweetness and there was a missing each other in their little conversation. And that when Marshall said, can you help me in this way, she does it.

[Josh Radnor]

She.

[Craig Thomas]

Yes. Ands him in that improv game because she loves him. And she's like, I don't even know why I'm doing this necessarily. If she thinks about it too hard, maybe that would be disturbing if Marshall is interested in one of these women. But she just fucking does it and goes in there. And it's so funny and so deeply stupid how she comes in, goes out, and comes back in with a beret. And now she's the other sister. It was so really. My wife and I were watching it. That's the hardest we laughed in the whole episode. Cause it's so stupid. But I realized it was actually an important step in what happens a few episodes later, which is Marsha and Lily getting back together and showing just. There is that connection. She will still do that for him, even though it's the stupidest thing in the world.

[Josh Radnor]

You know, just comedically. Like her saying, you know, you gave me chlamydia and Throwing the drink in the face. That's funny enough.

[Craig Thomas]

That could have been it.

[Josh Radnor]

That could have been it. But the topping it with, like, the identical twin is so. It's like. It's just like it's squeezing just a little more drop out of it. That is so satisfying.

[Craig Thomas]

And that's why they're twins. It wasn't like, oh, it'll be funny if Barney's going after two cute blonde twins. Because that's what Barney would do. No, we came up with that idea specifically because we came up with the way Lily. The way Lily would do that. And we sort of reverse engineered it to get there. And that's why they're twins.

[Josh Radnor]

You know, it's funny. We always talk about what a great actress Alyson Hannigan is, but it's funny that Lily herself is, like a pretty game actor in certain plots and schemes. Like, you know, a couple episodes later, Barney enlists her in a plot, a scheme that she plays really willingly and kind of delightfully.

[Craig Thomas]

That's a good point. And World's Greatest Couple, she does another ruse and really commits. And like, really? Yeah. That's funny. Lily can. Yes. And. And that scene between her and Marshall that leads up to that is so sweet. And her eyes are too tearing up, and she's wants him back so badly. She. That's another amazing Alyson Hannigan moment.

[Josh Radnor]

Is the only other point on the street with.

[Craig Thomas]

On the street when they have the little conversation and Marshall says, no, I'm. I'm not. No, we're not gonna get back together yet. We're still on this journey, and I don't know what's gonna happen. And she. The way her eyes well up with tears.

[Josh Radnor]

Oh, my God. Yeah.

[Craig Thomas]

Heartbreaking. And you want them to be together, but you respect Marshall. Cause she's the one who sort of ended it and said, we need this. And he's. He's finally gotten to the place where he can agree on some level, like, maybe we do need time apart to figure ourselves out. And he was great being strong in that scene.

[Josh Radnor]

She kind of is like. She's devastated, but she kind of like, there's something about her accepting her fate and accepting the, like, kind of karma of, like, I have to live through the discomfort of this.

[Craig Thomas]

Yes. Yes. She's. That's what you see in her eyes. She's crying when she's accepting it. It's really. It's really good acting.

[Josh Radnor]

It's really good acting.

[Craig Thomas]

Yeah.

[Josh Radnor]

Shout out to Ali. So, just going back to some specifics from the Episode. The first thing I wrote down was the candy flash forward, you know, of like trying to come up with the perfect candy name for breasts.

[Craig Thomas]

That's another very Chris Harris, like, fast forward. Use the narrator. But yeah, I love that.

[Josh Radnor]

But you know what I thought? And this. Tell me if this is wrong. That in the writer's room, you guys get this idea, like candies, breasts, and everyone starts pitching ideas, right?

[Craig Thomas]

Yep.

[Josh Radnor]

Now, you couldn't list all the ideas, but you do have this clever thing. Like, to me, it was a bit that looked like, oh, this is just the writers room burning through their own ideas. And Marshall and Ted, it's the three of them. Right?

[Craig Thomas]

It's the three guys.

[Josh Radnor]

It's the three guys.

[Craig Thomas]

Right. And they spent an hour on it.

[Josh Radnor]

They spent an hour on it.

[Craig Thomas]

Which is also what we did in the writers room.

[Sponsor/Ad Voice]

Yeah.

[Josh Radnor]

And you know, this is. So this is. Jason had a song first season that he started singing, and it was. I'll just say it was about buttholes. That's all I'm gonna say. Okay. I started adding verses to this. And we spent days, like, we spent days adding verses and trying to make each other laugh.

[Craig Thomas]

I don't know. This. This is the first I'm hearing about this.

[Josh Radnor]

We then went to. What was that restaurant. It's on. It's on Beverly. Dominick's.

[Craig Thomas]

Yeah, yeah, Dominic's.

[Josh Radnor]

The original Dominic's. Yeah, yeah, we went there. We sat outside in silence with cocktails, just writing more verses and trying to make each other laugh. Like that was our post work thing. And it's the same thing. It's just like, you get an idea that feels comedically fertile and you just write it. You ride it into the sand like you're gonna take it as long as you can.

[Craig Thomas]

Yeah, well, that's a writer's room and that's what you guys were doing. And I think that we've done that. We did that forum other times, the fast forward through and jump out to hear one thing and then fast forward through. That became kind of a low key runner in the. We did that a bunch of times. This was the first time. I think there might have been one in season one, actually. I can't remember. But it makes the joke so much funnier that forum, because if you sat there and just heard a whole bunch of them for a whole minute, it would get old. But just popping through and imagining the ones you're not hearing, that's why it works.

[Josh Radnor]

The implication is when you start thinking about it is like, oh, actually, all candy sounds like, breasts. Like, if you. If you're just going with the theme, they all work, you know?

[Craig Thomas]

Yeah. And I love just. I love them being idiots together, the three of them. It's a good, like, bro moment. Three dudes can sit at a bar and do that for one hour. That can actually happen, and it shows.

[Josh Radnor]

Like, if you drop Robin into that booth or Lily into that booth, the energy, the conversation's different.

[Craig Thomas]

Yeah. So.

[Josh Radnor]

So, like, Barney can be, like, gross with Ted and Marshall in a way that Lily or Robin would be, like. Would needle him for. Or Ted might even be a little more performatively outraged at Barney's grossness when Robin or Lily are in the BO Than he would be if it was just the three of them.

[Craig Thomas]

Yeah. And I like that subtle. Like, the subtle difference of their energy is three dudes hanging out. And I really liked that moment.

[Josh Radnor]

I loved the Lily reveal. I just thought it was good. Like, Pam Freyman filmmaking. And I thought, you know, that the thing about, like, so many questions, like, what was I gonna say? And just. Your hair is adorable.

[Craig Thomas]

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. That was great. I mean, that was them. Like, the two of them having a lady bond energy. That would. That's them without the guys. You know what I mean? It was funny, those versions.

[Josh Radnor]

When men are together, they talk about boobs, and when women are together, they talk about hair. Let's be very gender normative.

[Craig Thomas]

It's not the most original, but it works. I'm happy.

[Josh Radnor]

Yeah. When Marshall's trying to talk to the woman and he says, sweat. Like this smelly water coming out of.

[Craig Thomas]

Your skin, he plays that so great. The way he does not know how to talk to a woman who's not Lily. He just does.

[Sponsor/Ad Voice]

Yeah.

[Josh Radnor]

Yeah. That must have been, like, a fun writer's room tea. Like, you tee that up. Like, expressing interest in a woman for the first time in a decade, and he has no idea how to do it. Go. Like, such a fun prompt for good comedy writers.

[Craig Thomas]

Yeah. Yeah. It's a good bit. But the weirdness of sweat being smelly water was a delightful. I don't remember if it was Chris or Mitch in the writer's room, but I rewatching it, I was like. Like, that's a really good, visceral, weird detail. Smelly water that comes out of your skin. All right, bye.

[Josh Radnor]

And it's also, like, it's both. Like, it would make you go, I need to get away from this person. And also, when you think about it, it's like, he. I know what he's saying. It is smelly water that comes out.

[Craig Thomas]

It is weird.

[Josh Radnor]

It's real.

[Craig Thomas]

It's like he's got a point, he's got a point, he's got a point.

[Josh Radnor]

And it's not a terrible way to describe it. It's just not a sexy way to talk.

[Craig Thomas]

It's not an opener. It's not what you would lead with.

[Josh Radnor]

Yeah, that's three drinks in, you can say smelly water. And this old man, he must admit he fell in love with you.

[Craig Thomas]

New York City and now commercials.

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[Craig Thomas]

End of commercial. End back to show.

[Josh Radnor]

You guys really leaned into Barney the Magician in this episode.

[Craig Thomas]

Oh, my God. Yeah, this was really the beginning of. I think we teased it a little in season one, but this was, like. He uses this. This is in his arsenal of tactics to get women. Yeah, it's so funny. And it's really. Neil. Neil really loves and does. And, like, Neil is a member of the Magic Castle. Whenever we did these things, he would. He would bring in the stuff. Like, I think that was just his. He just had that stuff. Or he would bring in, like, his magic consultant friend.

[Josh Radnor]

People always think, like, what part was improvised? We should just say, every magic trick was just Neil doing it in the moment. We didn't know any. That's not true.

[Craig Thomas]

But he would bring in his. Neil would live for the moments. He got to sort of bring in stuff like that. It was very cool. It was really a part of his personality.

[Josh Radnor]

There's also something funny about the way that the women respond, which is very childlike. Like, oh, my God.

[Craig Thomas]

Yeah, it's weirdly effective.

[Josh Radnor]

I loved the bit when Barney comes over to take Marshall out, and he's like, hand over the magic.

[Craig Thomas]

Oh, my God.

[Josh Radnor]

Just pulling everything out. And the. Yeah.

[Craig Thomas]

So much fun. And what's behind my ear? There's nothing. But that was such a good one. And the you're a jerk. You're a jerk one where he's almost written the correct thing on his hand. That was really.

[Josh Radnor]

Yeah. I loved, you know, Ted's Penny thing. Was this the first, like, Ted loves old coins bit we had?

[Craig Thomas]

Yeah. I think this was. I think this was planting the seed of the coins. And then later, we do an episode called Lucky Penny. And then later, and this isn't too much of a spoiler, he names his daughter Penny.

[Josh Radnor]

Oh, right, right. I loved.

[Craig Thomas]

Just.

[Josh Radnor]

It's a real quick throwaway. Like, just imagine the history this little guy's seen. And I'll tell you, for me, the biggest laugh in the episode, for some reason was after Robin jumps in to not tell Marshall about Lily and says, you know, Ted found an old Penny or whatever. And the way Jason just went. Way to go.

[Craig Thomas]

Yeah.

[Josh Radnor]

Like, real sincere. Like, he knows what that means to Ted. He knows Ted needs that.

[Craig Thomas]

He knows Ted needs that. He needs to feel it's important. Yeah.

[Josh Radnor]

And he just. He drops his whole drama that's going on, and she's like, I'm proud of you. Some of my Favorite laughs in How I Met yout Mother are not like, they're not like jokes. You could even analyze why they're funny. It's not a joke.

[Craig Thomas]

It's not a joke. It's not a joke. It's. Yeah, it's an attitude.

[Josh Radnor]

It's just a character revealing kind of like Lily's thing. It was a button. You know that thing in the last episode.

[Craig Thomas]

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. It's not a joke.

[Josh Radnor]

I don't know why that delighted me. But there's certain little things you guys were always finding for us to kind of like, like just be a little more Marshall y or a little more Teddy.

[Craig Thomas]

You know, that's us feeling your guys energies out as actors and as who you are as people and going. That would sound. That would be funny coming from Josh. That would be funny coming from Jason. Jason's just turning, turning on a dime or on a penny, should I say? And being like, hey, great work, buddy. And like you realize that he knows Ted so well. He knows Ted needs not to be taken seriously and Robin's not taking it seriously. So Marshall's like, I'm gonna validate you for this penny thing.

[Josh Radnor]

Ye. It's interesting that in the first season, remember I said that Lily and Marshall were like Ted's parents. We talked about they were his parents slash social cheerleaders. And for the first couple episodes of this season, it really gets flipped where Robin and Ted play that role for like heartbroken Marshall. And then they start counseling Lily. Like they're the stable, you know, short term but long term couple. They really assume that role.

[Craig Thomas]

That's really smart. I don't know how conscious we were that we were doing that, but it sort of. There was like a conservation of couplehood. You know, the couple transferred, but it kept that kind of rock or that anchor of the couple that could kind of caretake for the crazy people flying around out in the insanity of singleness in New York City. You're right. Ted and Robin now have occupy that in this moment.

[Josh Radnor]

It's also, I think we talked about this in, in season one, but there's something about when you're in groups of friends, like it's like triage. Like you have the energy has to go to the person who's bleeding out, you know, and Marshall's like bleeding out. And so Ted and Robin, like even naturally without writers playing God, have to take like they have to be the BC story or they have to be supporting actors in the grander drama because he's the one going through the Insane. And then Lily's the one going through it, you know?

[Craig Thomas]

Yeah, yeah, it's true. Ted and Robin are now playing as a team.

[Josh Radnor]

Yeah.

[Craig Thomas]

Their stories in these first couple of episodes are largely as a team now. And it's different.

[Josh Radnor]

I also found it really nice to see Robin and Ted in like non dramatic kind of early relationship bliss.

[Craig Thomas]

Yeah, me too.

[Josh Radnor]

I'd forgotten that there's a lot of episodes where they're just together. You know, they're together in a really relaxed way. There's not drama. You don't see anyone's avoidance or anxiety flaring up. They're just like, they're in the gang. They're still in the gang, but they're together. I thought it was very. There was something very pleasant about it.

[Craig Thomas]

And even when they're kind of a little bit at odds in this episode, meaning Robin has one take on Lily Robbins believing Lily's version of the story. And Ted is saying, I know her longer and better than you. Yeah, she's miserable. And I will say, I really love. I love that Ted, as such a good friend to Marshall, is like, I kind of need her to be miserable. Even though I love Lily too. I need her to be a little miserable for Marshall. And Ted's Right. And yet it's very funny. The scene with the $5 changing hands when the tequila kind of finally hits, and Lily Allison crying and saying the apartment is a metaphor for Marshall.

[Josh Radnor]

That's another great line.

[Craig Thomas]

The apartment is a metaphor for Marcia. It's such a weird thing to say while crying, but just the delight. You played that great. I thought because you're so happy you won the $5, but it doesn't feel mean.

[Josh Radnor]

Right?

[Craig Thomas]

You're happy you won the $5. You're happy she's miserable. Cause her being miserable means she still loves Marshall. And it's good they're gonna get back together. Ted wants them back together, but Ted is taking Glee and a person crying, but in kind of the nicest, the best possible way. It's a funny moment.

[Josh Radnor]

My parents have this thing that I guess they've been doing for years, but my dad just said, well, your mom owes me $1.3 million. And they apparently will bet over things, like stupid things, but they do a hundred thousand dollar bets.

[Craig Thomas]

That's really good.

[Josh Radnor]

The tally is she up to 1.3 that she owes him, which I'm sure he's gonna try to collect.

[Craig Thomas]

Yeah, he's gonna collect it.

[Josh Radnor]

He's gotta collect it. Yeah.

[Craig Thomas]

But I like that Ted was rooting for her misery in a way that I think is fundamentally sweet. And that's why it worked.

[Josh Radnor]

Yeah.

[Craig Thomas]

He wants her to miss his best friend. And she's also kind of his best friend. And if she's miserable, it means she's gonna come back and they'll get to put this whole thing back together. Maybe not right away. And that was. I love that that was Ted's motivation. But that's why I felt very okay laughing. Ted taking glee and Lily having a breakdown. And Robin was wrong. Robin. Ted did know Lily better than he knew. He just knew he knows her, though.

[Josh Radnor]

Cinco de Mayo, 1998. Lily, he has a lot of history with her.

[Craig Thomas]

I'm not cleaning that up again.

[Josh Radnor]

I thought the scene in the taxi with them where Barney throws the number out the window and then Marshall gets out of the car to chase it down, and you realize he's just slid.

[Craig Thomas]

It into more magic. More magic.

[Josh Radnor]

More magic. Sleight of hand, in search. You know, revealing his scorpion nature.

[Craig Thomas]

Yeah, absolutely. I love when they fight. They're fighting in there, I think. And Marshal says, I'll kill you. Yeah. It's such a funny, like, visceral thing. I was watching that with my wife, and she was, like, cracked up at that moment. She's like, I like the simplicity of I'll kill you. When he says, I'm gonna take this one, too. It's such a funny line that we put to them.

[Josh Radnor]

And it's almost literally Homer Simpson strangling Bob.

[Craig Thomas]

Like, it's literally the same.

[Josh Radnor]

The same thing. It really is.

[Craig Thomas]

I'll kill you. Oh, my God.

[Josh Radnor]

Going back to the Barney and Marshall storyline, I thought you guys were really walking a very fine line because Barney is deeply shitty in this episode.

[Craig Thomas]

He's so terrible.

[Josh Radnor]

He's so terrible.

[Craig Thomas]

Really bad.

[Josh Radnor]

And especially, like, sweet, vulnerable Marshall, like, doing his best to, like, pick himself up and get out there.

[Craig Thomas]

Fucking brutal.

[Josh Radnor]

It's brutal. You know, it really.

[Craig Thomas]

That's why I think the whole episode only works because of how great and funny that comeuppance was at the end. And that it's Marshall's idea that Lily helps him with. And Barney at the end has to admit that it was well played.

[Josh Radnor]

Yes.

[Craig Thomas]

And that I don't think the whole episode would not have worked had that ending not landed.

[Josh Radnor]

I think one of my favorite, though, the line that did make me laugh from Barney is, they're not the same person. No. Identical ident. Same ickle person.

[Craig Thomas]

Slow. So fucking weird. The.

[Josh Radnor]

Remember that? I think we might have talked about this, but Adam McKay, who, you know, worked with Will Ferrell on so many classic movies. Like, he used to say, there's nothing funnier than people being confidently wrong.

[Craig Thomas]

Confidently wrong.

[Josh Radnor]

Barney is just such a fount of confident wrongness.

[Craig Thomas]

Yeah. He's the most confident about the things he's wrongest about, and which is very much how a lot of our modern male culture is. And at this moment in time, in.

[Josh Radnor]

2025, Barney is a bit of a precursor. He's a precursor in terms of, like, the volubility, you know, just the amount of stuff that comes out of him, and also the certainty with which he.

[Craig Thomas]

He.

[Josh Radnor]

He cites facts and figures, or he thinks that everything he says is, like, no, this is correct. The insistence that he is correct. It's. Yeah, it was a little ahead of the moment, I think.

[Craig Thomas]

Yeah, I. I mean, I. Yeah, I think. I think we are teasing out something about, like, toxic masculinity and Barney. And of course, we always tried to show. Not in this. Not in this episode, but a lot of other times, we showed the beating heart and the scars beneath that. And that's what's interesting, I think, about Barney. That's why he's lovable.

[Josh Radnor]

Yeah.

[Craig Thomas]

And, yeah, I think that idea of you're kind of creating this product version of yourself, that's a bit Trumpy. Right? That's a bit like modern male, kind of like manosphere.

[Josh Radnor]

He's a brand.

[Craig Thomas]

Yeah. Like, he's a bit of. You're making yourself as a brand. Right. It's that idea and that. That predates Trump, and that will. That will. Something like that will always exist. But Barney's definitely doing that.

[Josh Radnor]

He even says, the peeps need my twee.

[Craig Thomas]

Keeps needing my tweets. He knows. Yeah. Like, Barney could have written something called the Art of the Deal. You know, Barney has the playbook. You know what I mean? There are overlaps. I will hasten to point out that I really enjoy how much we see why Barney is the way he is and how over the course of the show, we see him change and evolve, and you see a side of him that is very much not for show in this episode. This is kind of the darkest, worst part of Barney in this episode. But I think we start to see. And I'm sure that if you peel back the layers on anybody who puts up that much bravado, you can find the humanity underneath it. That was our goal with Barney. But in this episode, we really didn't do that at all. We just kind of. We just had him be shitty in this one. And it was funny. And at the end, he tries to slightly justify it by saying, I'm just teaching you what it's like out here, kid. Which is kind of not true.

[Josh Radnor]

It's like.

[Craig Thomas]

Does he really believe. That is the question. That's the philosophical debate of this episode. Does Barney think he's in any way actually helping Marshall, or is he just absolutely being a sociopath?

[Josh Radnor]

Well, it's also.

[Craig Thomas]

It's like.

[Josh Radnor]

It's like proper addiction. Like, addiction will. You will betray your family. Like, you will rob your family.

[Craig Thomas]

Yes.

[Josh Radnor]

It makes you compromise any sort of value system you might have. So you're right.

[Craig Thomas]

It's an addiction narrative. That's what. That's what this one was. It really is. Barney can't stop. He needs help.

[Josh Radnor]

Yeah. Yeah. Well, I think it's very brave.

[Craig Thomas]

Too bad we didn't think of the interventions until later.

[Sponsor/Ad Voice]

I think it was.

[Josh Radnor]

It was brave of you guys to. To you talk about him as a cartoon, but, like, it was brave of you guys to, like, go to the outer limits of, like, how horrible he could be.

[Craig Thomas]

I was impressed and a little like, wow, I forgot how. I forgot how dark we went with Barney in this one. He is the Scorpion.

[Josh Radnor]

He's the Scorpion.

[Craig Thomas]

He's the Scorpion.

[Josh Radnor]

Yes.

[Alec Lev]

All right, this week, instead of some general questions.

[Craig Thomas]

General questions that we're not doing.

[Alec Lev]

That's perfect, though.

[Josh Radnor]

We did that one.

[Craig Thomas]

Well, that was precinct.

[Alec Lev]

Just a couple quick comments from. General comments from the Internet. Tenerife Sam, sorry, says, thank God you're coming back. You guys always make the drive to work and the Atlanta traffic a little more bearable. Xavier Roberto, 87, says, Dudes, this podcast is so funny. And Samia Bianchi says, oh, my God, I can't believe this podcast exists.

[Craig Thomas]

That could go either way, you know, that could be good or bad, I suppose. I can't believe this podcast exists. I could be. Sheik might hate it.

[Alec Lev]

I suppose there are emojis, but I'm 50, so I don't. I can't. I can't define what they are. Their faces of things. I also can't see them without glasses. And Ms. Chanock teaches us for the Scorpion and the Toad. Did you know that the German title for this episode translates to New life, old mistakes?

[Craig Thomas]

Wow. Really? I didn't realize there were, like, titles that were, like, that far off of what the literal. And that's amazing. Anybody else out there listening? Can you please share what the titles are in your country? Because I need fun translations. I could hear those all day long. That's Amazing.

[Alec Lev]

And Craig, Greg, talk to us. You've got something really amazing to tell us about.

[Craig Thomas]

Yeah. So when this episode of our podcast drops and you're listening to this right now, if you're listening to it October 27, that week, the week after this one, you're here that you're listening to now. November 4th, my debut novel comes out. It's called that's Not How It Happened. For sale wherever you buy books or you can go to my website, craigthomaswriter.com novel and there's just a bunch of different links, lengths, ways to buy it, the actual physical book and the audiobook. This book is told through four different perspectives. And so there's four different audiobook narrators, and two of them are Josh Radner and Cobie Smulders, which is like an absolute dream come true for me to have you guys come in and add to that project. This book means the world to me. It's my favorite thing I've ever written besides How I Met yout Mother. And it's based on a part of my life I didn't really get to explore. In How I Met yout Mother, my wife and I, our son has disabilities, both learning disabilities and some health challenges. And I wrote about a family that's in that situation. It's a comedy. It's a comedy about the complexity of a family where one of the kids in this case has down syndrome and has had open heart surgery. And we're seeing all of the family's perspective on what it's like to be a family in that situation. And it is very much a comedy. It's full of heart. It's full of jokes and acts. I try to also dig into the reality of what's going on in that family. And I'm so honored that Josh and Koby are lending their voices to this. I think how Much yout Mudder fans will really like it. It's told in a structurally playful way, kind of like how much Mudder jumps around perspectives and time and stuff. And there's a lot of playful storytelling in it. I hope himyim fans will check it out. So I just wanna do a little plug for that.

[Josh Radnor]

Can I just offer a little something in addition to that, please? I have a book coming. No, it's not.

[Craig Thomas]

And it's better than Craig's book.

[Josh Radnor]

Y I so I read. I read the Father, Rob, which was delightful, but I did read the whole book. I didn't just read the Rob, thank.

[Craig Thomas]

You for not just before reading the books.

[Josh Radnor]

Yeah, So I wanted to know the context. But I was delighted by this book. It is super page turny. It is like breathlessly and hilariously plotted. But also, I told Craig I've never read a novel where the interiority was just as rich and as fun as the plot twists. And I think that his many years of crafting great narratives on television, you know, came to bear on this. But also, like, your gifts as a novelist are just abundant. And I really, I mean, I kept telling my wife how much I was enjoying reading this book. It didn't take me that long. It's a quick read, but I was so delighted by it. It's incredibly vivid. You're really seeing it as you read it. And I just thought there's so many pleas be having this novel. And even if you were my mortal enemy, I would be forced to. I love you dearly. You're one of my best friends. But I would be forced to concede that you had written a great book.

[Craig Thomas]

That is amazing. I wish that could be a blurb on the book, even if Craig Thomas.

[Josh Radnor]

Was my mortal enemy, which he's not. But you will not be disappointed if you pick up this book or listen to this book. So check it out.

[Craig Thomas]

That means the world to me. And I would be honored. I'm honored you and Kobe are part of it and the audiobook. And I would be honored if. How much Wonder fans would give it a read.

[Alec Lev]

And finally, Josh, we have a great story to take us out today from a. From a fan.

[Josh Radnor]

Here is a A terrific letter from one of our listeners. I'm so excited for the continuation of the show. Whim has been such a fantastic dive, and I'm really enjoying the chance to think more deeply about himyim with y'.

[Alec Lev]

All.

[Josh Radnor]

Like most of those listening to the show, I've always thought about himyim beyond the surface level. And this has been such a validating. Listen. Listen. When it comes to season two, my thoughts go straight to Lily. She takes a massive risk by leaving the safety of Marshall to pursue her art. But when she returns, it is on her own terms, ready to take the leap into the next stage of life and ready to face the consequences of her choices. Her character captures both the doubt and strength of the creative mind. She is so brave, and I truly admire her for her risk. The more I've rewatched the show over the years, the more I find myself relating to her, especially in later seasons. Like Lily, I've always had creative pursuits that often get pushed aside for, quote, real life and her story has reminded me not to delay the goals I want to accomplish and that keeps me pushing forward. Chasing my silly art dream is what Lily would want. Thanks for keeping this show magical, Amanda.

[Craig Thomas]

Oh man, I love that.

[Josh Radnor]

Amanda, I don't want to give notes on your lovely, lovely letter, but I don't think your art dream is silly.

[Craig Thomas]

Yeah, yeah, well said. That's a good note.

[Josh Radnor]

You can drop that modifier.

[Craig Thomas]

There's such a thing as a good note and that's a good note. And Josh is right and I'm so glad that you related to Lily and it helped you feel like pursuing your very not silly goals. So well done.

[Josh Radnor]

I am guilty. Please acquit me. All sins off again In New York.

[Alec Lev]

City, How We Made youe Mother is hosted and executive produced by Josh Radner and Craig Thomas and is presented and distributed by the Office Ladies Network and Odyssey. This episode is also executive produced by Jenna Fisher and Angela Kinsey. The show is produced and edited by me, Alec Lev and our co producer is Doug Matica. Our audio producer and mixer is Alex Reeves at Pointe Blue Studios. Our digital content producer, AKA Gen Z Master is Emily Blumberg. Artwork by John Morrow. Please follow rate and review the show on Apple Podcasts or your podcast player of choice. It really does help the show. Our theme song is New York City by our own Josh Radner, with additional music by Craig Thomas and Andrew Majus. Special thanks to Lola Kennedy and Elliot Connors. Visit how we madeyourmother.com to learn more and click on the contact page to send us an email or a voice message. Your stories and questions are an important part of the show. Subscribe to Josh Radner's Muse letters on Substack and check out his music and everything [e-mail] Order Craig Thomas Debut novel that's Not How It Happened, wherever books are sold, and check out his other published [e-mail] and you can subscribe to My own Dead Fathers Society also on Substack to learn more about how you make a difference. This show's ongoing campaign to raise money for congenital pediatric heart disease research. Check out the Make a Difference tab at the top of our website. People will in fact fact dance.

[Craig Thomas]

The.

[Josh Radnor]

Real question it just hit me. Am I in love with you or just New York city?

[Alec Lev]

There's about 10 seconds left on the clock.

[Josh Radnor]

The Instacart shopper has to nail this handoff. He's flying down the sidewalk. He's looking for the receipt receiver lining up the pass. And he did it. Game day is saved. Wait, dad.

[Sponsor/Ad Voice]

Did you forget Dib?

[Josh Radnor]

And we're back. Get ready for game day with instacart.

[Craig Thomas]

And get $0 delivery fees on your first three orders. Service fees apply. Three orders in 14 days excludes restaurants. Instacart.

[Josh Radnor]

We're here.