How Nothing Good Happened

Summary

Podcast Summary: How We Made Your Mother – Episode: "How Nothing Good Happened"

Release Date: August 4, 2025

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Introduction

In the premiere episode titled "How Nothing Good Happened," hosts Josh Radner and Craig Thomas delve deep into the intricacies of the "How I Met Your Mother" episode "Nothing Good Happened." This episode, which aired on April 10, 2006, serves as a pivotal moment in the series, blending humor with profound moral dilemmas. The hosts explore the narrative structure, character development, and the underlying moral themes that make this episode a standout in the series.

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Listener Stories

The podcast begins with heartfelt testimonials from fans who share how "How I Met Your Mother" has impacted their lives. Notably, Ash from Houston, Texas, recounts how the show provided comfort during a challenging period after losing her mother to cancer. Her story highlights the show's role not just as a comedy but as "medicine for the soul in hard times."

• Ash's Testimonial (00:35 - 01:58):

  "Being able to connect with characters and feel a comfort that I hadn't felt since my mom had been around meant so much to me and really did help me grow as a person."

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Episode Overview: "Nothing Good Happened"

Josh Radner and Craig Thomas provide an in-depth synopsis of the episode, emphasizing its unique narrative style and the emotional weight it carries.

• Craig Thomas (06:18):

  "The episode takes off from Ted waiting for a call from Victoria, only to receive a call from Robin at 2 in the morning."

• Key Plot Points:

  • Ted Mosby anticipates a break-up call from Victoria but instead receives a late-night call from Robin.
  • The episode explores Ted's moral dilemma: follow his heart or adhere to honesty.
  • The narrative employs a real-time structure, heightening the sense of urgency and emotional tension.

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Thematic Analysis

The hosts discuss the moral core of both "The Simpsons" and "How I Met Your Mother," drawing parallels between their strong ethical foundations.

• Josh Radner (16:46 - 17:37):

  "How I Met Your Mother has a really strong moral center in that, you know, Lily often functions as the moral conscience of the show."

• Craig Thomas (17:38 - 19:05):

  "We wanted to know that the show had a moral core, but to still show these characters doing the wrong thing sometimes, especially Ted..."

This segment underscores how the show balances humor with genuine ethical considerations, making the characters relatable and the storylines impactful.

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Character Dynamics and Development

A significant portion of the discussion revolves around Ted's internal conflict and character growth portrayed in the episode.

• Josh Radner (19:05 - 21:36):

  "As an actor, you're looking for... this puts Ted in knots. He's a man at odds with himself a lot."

• Craig Thomas (21:36 - 23:07):

  "It's almost future him, too. Victoria's future him and Lily's kind of future him."

The hosts highlight how Ted's struggle between honesty and desire adds depth to his character, making his journey more nuanced and relatable.

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Production Insights

The episode's production nuances, such as the absence of B or C storylines, are examined to illustrate the show's commitment to focused storytelling.

• Craig Thomas (24:43 - 25:40):

  "We don’t have a B story. We’re fully committed to the A story, and everyone’s weighing in on that."

This approach ensures that each episode maintains a clear and impactful narrative without unnecessary distractions.

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Memorable Moments and Quotes

Several standout moments and quotes from the episode are dissected, showcasing the blend of humor and drama that characterizes the show.

• Marshall and Lily's Concerns:

  They worry that Ted and Robin's relationship might disrupt the group's dynamic, emphasizing the theme of friendship over romantic entanglements.

• Barney's Magic and Side Quests:

  Barney attempts to disprove the "Nothing good happens after 2 AM" rule, showcasing his persistent yet misguided optimism.

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Guest Appearances and Performances

The episode features guest performances that add layers to the narrative, including Alexis Denisof's portrayal of Sandy Rivers.

• Josh Radner (26:33 - 29:03):

  "Alexis inhabited Sandy Rivers effortlessly, making him a memorable and hilarious character."

The hosts commend the guest actors for their seamless integration into the show's universe, enhancing the overall storytelling.

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Moral and Ethical Reflections

In the latter part of the discussion, Josh and Craig reflect on the broader moral lessons imparted by the episode and the series as a whole.

• Josh Radner (55:15 - 57:04):

  "Don’t bemoan your failures. Your failures are where your character gets forged."

• Craig Thomas (56:01 - 57:48):

  "Showing your kids that you're a human being is huge because then they get to be, too. And that's a gift."

These reflections emphasize the show's commitment to portraying flawed yet endearing characters, fostering a sense of authenticity and moral integrity.

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Conclusion

"How Nothing Good Happened" stands out as a masterful blend of humor, drama, and moral introspection. Through detailed analysis and personal anecdotes, Josh Radner and Craig Thomas illuminate the episode's significance within the "How I Met Your Mother" canon. The discussion not only celebrates the show's ability to entertain but also its profound impact on its audience's personal lives.

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Notable Quotes with Timestamps

• Ash's Testimonial (00:35 - 01:58):

  "Being able to connect with characters and feel a comfort that I hadn't felt since my mom had been around meant so much to me..."

• Craig Thomas on Episode Synopsis (06:18):

  "The episode takes off from Ted waiting for a call from Victoria..."

• Josh Radner on Moral Core (16:46 - 17:37):

  "How I Met Your Mother has a really strong moral center..."

• Josh Radner on Character Conflict (19:05 - 21:36):

  "As an actor, you're looking for... this puts Ted in knots..."

• Craig Thomas on Focused Storytelling (24:43 - 25:40):

  "We don’t have a B story. We’re fully committed to the A story..."

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Final Thoughts

"How We Made Your Mother" successfully unpacks the layers of one of "How I Met Your Mother"'s most emotionally charged episodes. By combining personal stories, behind-the-scenes insights, and philosophical reflections, Josh and Craig offer listeners a comprehensive understanding of what makes the show resonate deeply with its audience.

For more insights and discussions on "How I Met Your Mother," visit howwemadeyourmother.com.

Transcript

[Josh Radner]

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[Craig Thomas]

This episode is brought to you by State Farm.

[Carter Bays]

Checking off the boxes on your to.

[Craig Thomas]

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[Josh Radner]

There.

[Ash]

My name is Ash. I'm from Houston, Texas. How I met your mother means comfort to me. 2009, I lost my very young mom, 37 years old, to a very rare form of cancer and in turn I lost everyone that I called family. So 20 year old me, very lost, very confused and very alone had this show. Being able to connect with characters and feel a comfort that I hadn't felt since my mom had been around meant so much to me and really did help me grow as a person. I've carried this show with me throughout my adulthood. Now I am 36 and it really means a lot. I actually got a chance to see one of Josh's shows in Houston a few years back which was also very comforting and brought that same feeling back. I'm so grateful that you're doing this podcast and I am eternally grateful for how I met your mother.

[Josh Radner]

I'm alone. What a pity I won't be soon in New York City when I see you. Please permit me to tell you everything in New York City. Well, hello out there listeners and watchers and fans of How I Met yout Mother. Welcome to how we made your mother. I'm Josh Radner. I played Ted Mosby for nine seasons on How I Met yout Mother. I am joined by my friend Craig Thomas, who co created the show with Carter Bayes. Hi Craig.

[Carter Bays]

Hey Josh.

[Josh Radner]

How's it going?

[Carter Bays]

Every time, Alec, you make me cry with these openings of the show. What a beautiful story. What a beautiful story.

[Josh Radner]

Thank you Ash.

[Carter Bays]

Thank you for sharing that with us.

[Josh Radner]

I think when you're in grief and something makes you or someone makes you laugh, you almost always forget it. There's something about the Anything that can, I don't know, alleviate a kind of heavy moment with some light heartedness. You feel grateful and loyal to that thing forever. That sounds like what we were able to provide for her.

[Carter Bays]

Yeah. It's amazing. I mean, I can't imagine how hard that was at such a young age to go through that. If the show provided comfort. It's amazing. It's amazing. That seems like she's almost the age now that her mother was, if I was tracking that correctly. So for the to have meant that to her and now she's an adult and at that age and like that, it's still part of her life. Thank you so much. That. That is very much. Was our greatest hope in making this show, that it would reach somebody like you, Ashton, at the moment you. You needed it. Thank you for letting us know that. I mean, that is the greatest gift just to know that.

[Josh Radner]

And if anyone has other stories they'd like to share about what How I Met yout Mother means to them or something funny or, you know, it can be anything. Please go to how we madeyourmother.com go to contact and write us a note. Drop us a voice note. We're always happy to hear from people because that's why we're doing this show. And today, speaking of the show we are talking about, I would call this a season one classic. Nothing good happens after 2am I would also say Jordana, obviously my wife, she had never seen the show. But when I said it's called Nothing good happens after 2:00am she says, I know that phrase. Like, I think. I think it's one of those that's happening now.

[Carter Bays]

Yeah. That's how things are getting out there and boomeranging back at us. And people are like, that's a phrase. It's like. Actually, I think it's because of our.

[Josh Radner]

We might have invented that phrase.

[Carter Bays]

Well, so that. Yeah. That Courtney Kang's mother. Courtney Kang, one of our writers. Mother would say that to Courtney Kang. And then it made it on How I Met yout Mother. So maybe that was a phrase that Courtney Kang's mother was somehow echoing back.

[Josh Radner]

But at least in the Kang household.

[Carter Bays]

It was the Kang household. It was a famous saying.

[Josh Radner]

Yeah. But it does feel like now it's one of those things. Maybe it's sticky because you don't have to live long to have proven the truth of it. You know what I'm saying? Like, we've all had that thing at like 2:30 or 3. And you're like, why am I here? This is where. This is where bad things happen. This is the hour where dark things happen.

[Carter Bays]

The decisions aren't getting better from here on out. We're not going to get. There's no upward trend at this point.

[Josh Radner]

Yeah, yeah.

[Carter Bays]

And I love that feeling in this episode. That feeling of immediate ominousness. You know what I mean? Future Ted telling his kids this law of physics, this law of the universe. Nothing good happens after 2am and the whole episode, you know, immediately it's going to go bad. It's like a disaster movie. Like, you know, there's going to be a tornado, there's going to be an earthquake. Like something bad is going to happen. And it does. And I sort of love that about this one.

[Josh Radner]

Remember I told you that thing of, if you were a character in a movie, what would people be screaming at you to do or not do? Yes. And you have this chorus, especially Marshall and Lily. Barney seems a little more encouraging, but they're like. They know this is a bad idea. Please don't go over there. So let's just set the scene, set some context for this episode. Alec, when did this episode air?

[Alec Lev]

This aired on April 10, 2006.

[Josh Radner]

April 10, 2006. Okay. And Craig, give us the kind of synopsis of. And start us at the end of life among the gorillas, because that's really where this episode gets teed up and kicked off.

[Alec Lev]

Can I just not. The episode before this came out on March 20th. So you had 20 days.

[Carter Bays]

There was a big gap. Which is funny because when I watched this last night with my wife and I said, we never did those previously things. You know what I mean? The previously is baked into the episode on this one.

[Josh Radner]

Right.

[Carter Bays]

So basically the narrative's like, here's what happened. Or, you know, just previously on How Much yout Mother? Basically. And it was because of the. I said to her, I think there was probably several weeks of wait from that one Monday to the next, and it was a cliffhanger.

[Josh Radner]

But isn't it funny? Like in. In 2006, we somewhat still had attention spans and collective cultural memory that we do not have now. Like, it's been so eroded at this point. Like, if it's on the next day, you have to be like, previously, here's what happened. Yeah, Let me remind you, we know you've forgotten. Yeah.

[Carter Bays]

So, yeah, that was funny to see that. I think it's maybe the only time in the series we kind of quite baked it in that overtly. Like, you need to remind our audience of what happened. But the cliffhanger at the end of life among the gorillas is that Ted is waiting late at night to get a call from Victoria, who's in Germany, and, you know, many hours ahead of him the next day. And the phone rings, and it's not Victoria, who he thinks is calling him to break up with him. It is, in fact, Robin, who is inviting him over at about 2 in the morning. And the episode takes off from there. It's the dilemma of what do you do? What do you do with this? You think you're breaking up with your long distance relationship, and the girl you're kind of secretly or not so secretly in love with calls you over two in the morning. And that is this episode.

[Josh Radner]

Yeah. These phones that they had, did they have caller id?

[Carter Bays]

Like, I kept wondering that. No one knows.

[Josh Radner]

Everyone just answers the phone. Like it's like a. Like a total landline, you know?

[Carter Bays]

Yeah. And in fact, it's a crucial plot point in this is that Robin would answer the phone not seeing that it was Ted's phone lighting up with Victoria's name. Because it's not a smartphone. It's 2006. It's a flip phone. I think you just opened the phone and answered it at some point. Flip phones. Or you could see, right? At some point. Like, I'm looking at you like, you remember this. I don't know why you're the expert.

[Josh Radner]

In this, but I think there was a. There's a little glass thing on the front that you could see. But this is also back in the day when people were answering phone calls. Like, no, no one's doing that now. Like, no one's. It's. It's like. It's like. It's like an etiquette breach to call people. It's like, what are you doing?

[Carter Bays]

It's an incredible invasion of privacy to call someone without texting for people just calling each other and not knowing who the fuck's called.

[Josh Radner]

So the wild west back then. Jesus.

[Carter Bays]

The wild west of phone calls. Crucial plot points in this are related to that. And it does feel like a tick dated, but you need to make the buy. My favorite thing about the. Here's my two favorite things about this episode. And the first one will sound like I'm criticizing, but Carter and I wrote this one, by the way, the brilliant Carter Bayes. I feel like Carter did excellent, excellent work on this one. I feel like maybe he started this one off and then I kind of counterpunched it a bit. Really brilliant writing. I love how it's kind of all and largely in real time. It has that really urgent feeling of, like, it's all happening late at night. It feels late at night. It feels like you're dizzy and drunk on the lateness of the night and the ominousness of what may happen. I really like that vibe. My first comment on that episode is I love how few jokes there are in it. Yeah, that's a really weird compliment. I mean it as a compliment because it is daringly and defiantly un jokey, and I really like that. I really like it because it is a play. This one. This is a theater. You're acting in this episode. Jacques is a superb. And B, theater acting. I mean that in the best possible way. You are acting a drama in this episode in the best way.

[Josh Radner]

Well, it's also, like, it's theatrical in, like, almost a classic sense. It's like, there's a ghost in this episode. It's like, Hamilton, that's stole my thing, too.

[Carter Bays]

You stole my thing too. My thing, too. My second comment is it's a fucking ghost story.

[Josh Radner]

Yeah.

[Carter Bays]

This episode's so great because it's a ghost story. How great is Ashley at playing that ghost version of Victoria? That's kind of Victoria, but kind of different. I was blown away by how great the two of you were in those scenes. Like, truly great. Great. It's Hamlet. It's our town. We are tapping into, like, the theatricality of the ghost character. The whole episode is the ghost.

[Josh Radner]

What episode is this? 18.

[Carter Bays]

18.

[Josh Radner]

So you're 18 episodes in, and you've established a kind of rapport with the audience. The characters are so sharply etched and defined at this point. The on, again, off, the love story, or almost love story of Ted and Robin is so firmly established.

[Carter Bays]

Yeah.

[Josh Radner]

And I think you guys have done a masterful job of turning Robin's affections toward Ted very gradually, very gradually to the point where she kind of can't, you know, and he's. It's just such a great thing, especially for, like, a love avoidant like Robin. She can't. Because she can't have Ted. Her. Her affections get amplified so much. Right. But you've really, narratively just pulled back the bow. It's so taut at the end of Gorillaz. So when you let it fly in this episode. And it doesn't need jokes because it's also. The stakes are quite high. The stakes are higher in this episode, I would argue, than any other episode in the first season.

[Carter Bays]

100%.

[Josh Radner]

I think one of the things that Marshall and Lily are scared about is they realize that this friend group is pretty special. They like Robin. They like having Robin around. They've really grown accustomed to having her around. And Ted and Robin are threatening this. This ecosystem. They're threatening the kind of petri dish they're all living in.

[Carter Bays]

Which is interesting too, because, like, Marshall and Lily kind of go from wanting Ted and Robin to get to not wanting that in this episode because it will be built on a lie. And the foundation of this relationship being built on kind of this crime that Lily calls it. She's like, don't start it this way. Right? If you guys are going to become that couple that we sit on that front porch with in the future and grow old with, and we'll all be couple best friends forever, it can't be built on, like, this really Messy moment at 2 in the morning.

[Josh Radner]

And I wrote you this little ditty to sing to you in New York City. We'll be right back. So, Craig, you know, I'm exhausted, but I'm back. I'm back from my Midwest swing of the Eulogy 2 tour. And this guy, I think I signed a vinyl record for him. And he said, can I ask you a question? I said, sure. He said, what advice would you have for me? And I said, what do you. What do you mean? What do you mean? And he said, just advice. What advice would you give me? And I said, do you have any. Is there any zone or area you're looking for an advice? He said, no, no, no. I just want advice. And I was baffled. What do you. What are you supposed to do when someone just wants general advice? General advice.

[Carter Bays]

General advice.

[Josh Radner]

You know, I said to him, I said, well, you know, work on yourself. Which also is possibly general. But I didn't know what else to say. And he thought. He was disappointed. He thought that was terrible advice now.

[Carter Bays]

Well, I have one. Well, here's the advice you could have given him. And it's advice for yourself, too, because while you're on that tour, I bet your apartment was just sitting there at home doing nothing. Nothing. You know why? Because you never learned, Josh. You could have hosted your place on Airbnb and made some extra cash, and so could that dude. And that's the general advice. General advice. General advice that you should have given him and yourself.

[Josh Radner]

This is the kind. This is the kind of information dropping that makes you me realize you need to come on tour with me always.

[Carter Bays]

I know. I. Thank you. I've been trying to wedge my way into the tour, and I Keep not getting an invitation. Now it's on record. So now I'm invited there. You can't uninvite me. Hey, everybody. Your home might be worth more than you think. Find out how [e-mail] host.

[Josh Radner]

Craig even though we worked for years together on television, you know that I started on the stage as a stage actor, right?

[Carter Bays]

You still, you still trod the boards. At times I do.

[Josh Radner]

And you know, on TV you can mumble. You can. They got a microphone, right. But on the stage, you gotta get. You gotta get it to the back row. You people gotta hear what you have to say, right?

[Carter Bays]

Yep.

[Josh Radner]

So I'm all. I'm always looking for new warmups to, to, you know, to move the mouth and lips and teeth and tongue around. And I think I found one.

[Carter Bays]

What do you got?

[Josh Radner]

Pretty Litter. Kitty Litter. But real fast, over and over. Pretty Litter, Kitty Litter. Pretty Litter. Kitty Litter. Pretty Litter. Kitter Pretty.

[Carter Bays]

I already messed it up.

[Josh Radner]

Pretty Litter, Kitty Litter. Pretty Kitty Litter.

[Carter Bays]

That's a good one. That is a good one.

[Josh Radner]

It's gonna take me a while. Listen, the warm up is a lot tougher than the product is to use. So you track your steps, you track your sleep, you even track your screen time. Why wouldn't you track your cat's health, too? That's why you got to use Pretty Litter. Kitty Litter. Pretty Litter, Kitty Litter. It's like smart tech for your litter box. The color changing litter actually monitors your cat's health. This is so high tech. By detecting potential issues in their urine, things like ph changes or blood, so you can catch problems early. What else you got for us, Craig?

[Carter Bays]

It's actually very high tech and amazing. It helps monitor your cat's health, detects abnormalities in your cat's urine by testing acidity and alkalinity levels and the visible presence of blood. Pretty Litter ships free right to your door. No heavy bags to carry. That's a good point. No big, heavy bags. Those things are £30, 50, £40, £155. Formulated with silica gel crystals that are safe for cats and people like Josh. Let's get a cat together. Let's use Pretty Litter. Kitty Litter. I can't say it though. I can't say it as fast as you. This is why you're the actor right now.

[Josh Radner]

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[Carter Bays]

Cannot detect every feline health issue or prevent or diagnose diseases. A diagnosis can only come from a licensed veterinarian. Terms and conditions apply. See site for details. Pretty litter. Kitty litter.

[Josh Radner]

And now back to the show. Did you by any chance. I just read this yesterday and I know I referenced an Atlantic article in the last episode. You're going to know what my reading habits are. But there's an article in the Atlantic.

[Carter Bays]

They're one of our sponsors. No, wait, that's me, Undies. Sorry, I confused him as the Atlantic with me Undies.

[Josh Radner]

But the Atlantic, they have an article about how the Simpsons is essentially a moral show. Like, its moral center is very strong. And back in the day, remember when Bush 1 said, we need a culture much more like the Waltons than the Simpsons? And it was considered, like, because. Because Bart was like, disrespecting and he was an underachiever. We. We thought it was leading to collapse. Not we, but you know what I mean? Like the. The kind of. So. But they said, like, the Simpsons is essentially like, if you. If you really track it, it's got like a really strong moral center. I would argue that how I met your mother has a really strong moral center in that, you know, Lily also often functions as the moral conscience of the show.

[Carter Bays]

Yeah, right.

[Josh Radner]

Like, she's. She's often the one saying, like, you can't do this. Like, this is wrong. Like, this is gonna. But I. But I. I agree that there. But I. I wonder, was that something you guys ever discussed in the. Or is that just an outgrowth of you and Carter being generally like good people? Do you know what I'm saying? Or is that something. TV has to be moral? Do you know what I'm saying?

[Carter Bays]

Yeah, I do. I do. I think we wanted. I mean, thank you for that. That's very nice. And yeah, I think we're people. Here's the thing. Here's what I think we're aiming at. To know that the show had a moral core, but to still show these characters doing the wrong thing sometimes, especially Ted, who is so winning and charming and he's so open hearted and wants. But he's still a guy. He's still a guy who has these feelings for this beautiful woman who has called him at 2 in the morning. So I'd say, like, yes, a moral center from future Ted telling. From moment one, even from the ending of the previous episode, future Ted's kind of saying Buckle up. Your old man fucked up here a little bit, kids.

[Josh Radner]

Well, it's also, it just occurred to me, the very convention of him telling his kids, like when we tell our kids stories, we're trying to impose. Not impose, but we're trying to impart some moral lesson.

[Carter Bays]

That's the moral part. That's the moral part is kind of future Ted looking back going like, this wasn't me at my best.

[Josh Radner]

If I can spare you this in your life, listen to your old man right now. Yes.

[Carter Bays]

Because I still don't feel good about this. These things that you tell yourself you are okay at 2 in the morning, you may not feel that way even 25 years hence. Yeah.

[Josh Radner]

You know, it occurs to me also, Ted has a break glass in case of emergency catchphrase that seems to grant him permission to do whatever he wants. And it's. But it's Robin. Like whenever he says, like, he would just murder with that V. Murdered. You murdered a man. But for Rob, I didn't.

[Carter Bays]

But it was a hitchhiker, Ted. It had nothing to do with Robin. You just hit a guy.

[Josh Radner]

But Robin.

[Carter Bays]

No, it's really true. Now, when you got this script, did you feel like, because Ted is all of a sudden in this crime movie at two in the morning in this episode. This is a different Ted, a different tone. What did you think when you read this one? Were you at all like, ooh, this is messy for Ted. Or were you like, oh, cool, this is juicy for Ted. I get to do some good acting here.

[Josh Radner]

Oh, no, no. I was thinking for as an actor, you're like, this is gold. I'm never. I have a long running argument with my dad and I don't know if I've shared about this, but it's worth sharing. I've had, I mean, there's been a decades long argument with my dad. My dad watches things and he's a big consumer of tv. He loves tv, but he also watches everything through this pretty strict moral lens where he'll finish like 75% of the things he finishes. He goes, why do they screw up their lives so bad? Why do people make these choices that screw up their lives so bad? And I always say, so you could have a TV show to watch that's.

[Carter Bays]

Not super fucking boring.

[Josh Radner]

I said, do you want to watch people make the right decisions all the time? Like, there's no story. Like, we tell stories about fatal flaws, about hubris, about, this is when I really stepped in it. We like to watch people get tangled in knots so we can watch Them to untangle that story.

[Carter Bays]

Story is conflict, right? That is it.

[Josh Radner]

Yeah. So when I. As an actor, you're looking for, oh, wow, this puts me in. This ties this character in knots. Like, this is gonna be really fun to. He's to play, you know, two different things that are pulling you in two totally different directions. I mean, it's really a war with his. It's his ego and his SuperEgo and his ID kind of hashing it out. You know, he's really at war with himself. And the specter or the ghost of Victoria is just his own conscience spinning this apparition to be in front of him, to play the other side out. Yeah.

[Carter Bays]

It's almost future him, too. Victoria's future him and Lily's kind of future him. And there's, like, three future Teds kind of in this episode being like, put on the brakes, buddy. And he can't quite do it.

[Josh Radner]

He can't do it.

[Carter Bays]

He really does try at a certain moment to do it in the episode, which I also really liked. Right. And that one, that right before they. He really tries to say goodbye. I love that. I love that moment where, like, you try to pull out of the nosedive.

[Josh Radner]

But it's also so true. There's that. There's that. Okay, I should go. And then there's the hug, which doesn't break.

[Carter Bays]

Yeah.

[Josh Radner]

And then there's like, Are we trying to pull out of the hug? Oh, no. Our cheek are brushing against each other. I guess I'll go, oh, now we're kissing.

[Carter Bays]

Like, you guys played that great, by the way.

[Josh Radner]

Yeah. There was something so great about the choreography. Just that it was so. You know now.

[Carter Bays]

Right. What disgusting thing did she whisper in your ear right before that tale? Like, I'm going back to what Kobe said. She always did.

[Josh Radner]

Yeah. I don't think we were at that, because I think that started when they started when they were in bed. When we were in bed and had the couple thing going. Maybe. Maybe even Kobe was like. I don't know him well enough to drop the. Yeah, that was the scat humor. I'm gonna drop later.

[Carter Bays]

You built to that. You built to that.

[Josh Radner]

Which. Yeah, exactly.

[Carter Bays]

No, you. I. I really felt that electricity in your performance here. Her too. I mean, the like too. But like. Like following Ted out there from Manhattan to Brooklyn, it's like you're witnessing. There's this real feeling of like, he's in trouble, he's transgressing. You know what I mean? You've got a bag full of produce.

[Josh Radner]

Yeah. The juicing is so funny. But you know that I think Jordana kind of responded when he said Park Slope and pointed out, like, the Upper west side to Park Slope is a real journey.

[Carter Bays]

It is.

[Josh Radner]

Like, it's not, but it's not 15.

[Carter Bays]

Minutes time to think about it.

[Josh Radner]

It's a lot. Even late at night that's still gonna be like, is that like a 40 minute ride?

[Carter Bays]

I'd say solid 35, 40 minutes.

[Josh Radner]

It's a 35, 40 minute ride. So he has a lot of time to fantasize and then he has to switch cabs. Cause the cab driver's drinking.

[Carter Bays]

But I felt the electricity in your performance. I could tell, like, you were into it. You know what I mean? You were like. You knew this was like, this was a juicy one. I thought that would be your answer, that you'd be like, no, I saw this was juicy.

[Josh Radner]

It was almost like. It was almost like as a theater actor, which at that time I still considered myself mostly a theater actor, that was where most of my hours as an actor were. On stage, not in front of the camera.

[Carter Bays]

Yeah.

[Josh Radner]

But there was something. So. And I think it's significant that, you know, Carter was late to Wesleyan. Right. Cause he had won like the Young Playwriting Conference and he had an Off Broadway production of a play in New York City when he was 17 or 18. Right.

[Carter Bays]

It's true.

[Josh Radner]

And there was always something. And maybe that's why I got the role or some sort of. I always felt like you were guys writing this one in particular really could have been a play. And I approached it, I think, as a play. You know, the scene in the bathroom with Victoria and Ted felt the most. Kind of like a scene in a play.

[Carter Bays]

Yes.

[Josh Radner]

Yes.

[Carter Bays]

Yeah.

[Josh Radner]

And it's true, you guys didn't. You didn't have a ton. I mean, you cut back to Marshall and Lillian, Barney, which I now realize, if we're really following this through. They're the Greek chorus. Right.

[Carter Bays]

They don't really have a story going.

[Josh Radner]

You know what I mean?

[Carter Bays]

They're really there for 10.

[Josh Radner]

I mean, Korea and Elvis.

[Carter Bays]

Korean. Elvis is amazing. But like, they. They really are there. It's all. Everybody's on one track, basically. Right. It is like theater in that, like, there's no B story. Carter always talks about that. He was always a great voice of like, let's not be slavish to B stories and C stories. Let's. Some episodes are the A story and everything is about. Everyone's weighing on that. Everyone's. Especially these ones that take place kind of in real time. And so much, so many great him episodes are like that. Carter was a great. He was a religious devotee to. Let's make it one thing. I mean, not every episode is that. Not every great him episode is that. It's good to mix it up. But to be able to do that speed is great.

[Josh Radner]

It's two things. One, when you're telling a story to your kids, it is kind of strange when you go, meanwhile, over here, meanwhile.

[Carter Bays]

This unrelated thing was happening. Yeah. Which.

[Josh Radner]

Which doesn't actually have that much bearing. But we talked about this earlier. But like, when there's an event like nothing good happens after 2am no other thing is going to be admissible. It's the thing. It's the thing.

[Carter Bays]

Yeah.

[Josh Radner]

I love how the episodes. I love going back to Robin's day, like, showing how she got in this pretty fragile, vulnerable, somewhat needy place where she was like, I need this guy to come over right now.

[Carter Bays]

Yeah, I really liked that. Here's 20 hours earlier. And like. Yeah, it felt very cinematic that moment. It feels more like a play or a movie this episode than a sitcom episode, which I love. And I love meeting Sandy Rivers, by the way. Just. We gotta give a shout out to Alexis Denisov. Yeah.

[Josh Radner]

Unbelievable introduction to Sandy Rivers. But there was. You guys didn't go to this well all that often, but every time you did, I thought it was hilarious. Which is her kindergarten class.

[Carter Bays]

Yes, yes. So funny.

[Josh Radner]

Always funny.

[Carter Bays]

Are you a lesbian?

[Josh Radner]

Are you a lesbian? Is so funny.

[Carter Bays]

Oh, my God.

[Josh Radner]

And then also Barney, like, you know, just being like, we're not going to talk about my job.

[Carter Bays]

We're going to do magic. We're going to do magic.

[Josh Radner]

And ramen crushes, you know, Absolutely crushes.

[Carter Bays]

And Ramena just sit there, like dying inside about her own identity, watching him kill in front of these kids. Yeah. Her having this horrible, like, soul searching day, including being hit on by Alyson Hannigan's husband. Not in real life, but the character he played, Alexis Stanisoff, who is the nicest dude in the world, and leaned into the. Playing this smarmy asshole character so hard because he's the nicest guy in the world and knew he could do that.

[Josh Radner]

Also, it should be noted, that's his real hair.

[Carter Bays]

Yes, it's a wonderful hair.

[Josh Radner]

Just knew he was castered out.

[Carter Bays]

Totally nose castered out. It's so not who he is in real life, but he really enjoyed it.

[Josh Radner]

Do you know what was funny when I was watching Alexis, who I just. It's like I hadn't Forgotten how good he is, but there's so much pleasure in watching.

[Carter Bays]

Yeah, he.

[Josh Radner]

He has. He does this weird thing which Neil does a lot, which is like, it's an incredibly kind of broad character at once, but it's also subtle. He's doing something very subtle.

[Carter Bays]

He's always subtle too. It's really true.

[Josh Radner]

But the way he was just kind of listening to her like on the phone, and the way he was kind of the nonchalance, which he suggests that they should have sex with each other. I love so much how he said having sex is fun.

[Carter Bays]

Having sex is fun.

[Josh Radner]

So funny. So good.

[Carter Bays]

Allison always says to him. And it's sort of like a compliment to both his looks and his acting. She's like, he's a leading man. He's a character actor trapped in a leading man body. Like, he's so. He's a good looking dude, but so capable of leaning into that character y stuff too, while maintaining kind of a groundedness. He's a. I am a huge fan of the show angel, which he was brilliant on. Alexis was. And it was. So we were thrilled to get him on the show.

[Josh Radner]

I also, I remember that Alexis and he did a bunch of episodes at Sandy Rivers. He did, but he never didn't kill.

[Carter Bays]

It was just murderous row. It was. It was, I'll kill her. No filler.

[Josh Radner]

It was like table read run through for the crew. It was like. I mean, he had literally like a perfect score of just crushing every single time.

[Carter Bays]

He just inhabited it. So.

[Josh Radner]

Well, it's funny, sometimes there are. We took a clown class at NYU and it's kind of like, like, it was like finding what your clown is. And your clown might not be goofy. Your clown might be arrogant, your clown might be a blowhard. You know what I'm saying? And it feels like Sandy Rivers is like Alexis's clown or one of his clowns. Like, it was just something that he did so effortlessly. And it looked like. It looked like he just knew how to be Sandy Rivers, like from the moment he came on.

[Carter Bays]

He could have. That could have been a whole, whole TV show. Like, if there was a TV show about. If, like New York Metro News 1 was a TV show, he would have been like the Barney of The Metro News 1.

[Josh Radner]

TV. He's like Frasier Crane in Cheers or something where, you know, like, he was unbelievable.

[Carter Bays]

So that's our second himyim significant other. Two episodes in a row. Right? Life Mind the Gorillas was Taryn. And now Alexis is in this one. And, and, and there will be More we're keeping to count.

[Josh Radner]

So a lot of times you would go in for, you know, you go in for these fittings, you know, on a Monday after the table read or a Tuesday after the run through, they ask to see you and you try on a ton of clothes and they just put. And a lot of times, you know, Jason and I. The biggest bonding Jason and I did for nine years was we would often stay in the same jeans and just swap out our shirts or sweaters. But we would change on set because we didn't want to walk back to our dressing room, right? So we were constantly just shirtless, talking about things, you know. But in this episode, Ted wears the same thing for two episodes straight. So I remember you go in with the casting director and you're like, well, we gotta find something we really like. Cause you're gonna be in this for two episodes. And then the fact that we landed on that shirt is astonishing to me. Astonishing.

[Carter Bays]

Tell talk to me about that shirt.

[Josh Radner]

This was that shirt. I don't know in what, because it's now. It's not a shirt I would ever wear in my life, ever. Back then or today. But for some reason, I think I, I. You just. Sometimes there's like a weird euphoria in front of the mirror. Like, you put it on the c. The costume designer really likes it, and you're like, yes, right, right, right. Like, this shirt looks f, but it's Robin. And then you, you. I watch the episode and I'm like, how did we land on this shirt for these two episodes?

[Carter Bays]

I know. And when Ted's going out to like the like, sexy times, potentially, like, it's sort of a very weird, bold, like, how. How would you describe that shirt for people who aren't looking at the episode at this exact moment?

[Josh Radner]

I don't even know. It almost feels like the Tim Robinson thing of like, the patterns. Remember the pattern shirt, like, where everyone's.

[Carter Bays]

Insane Dan Flash patterned shirts.

[Josh Radner]

That's what it feels like.

[Carter Bays]

Long enough, you devolve into madness.

[Josh Radner]

Well, it was softened a little bit when he had the blazer on. I will say that I was delighted to hear my friend Rachel Yamagata's song It's so Sorry.

[Carter Bays]

I think that's. Were you friends at that point or did you become friends because we, like, used your music on the show?

[Josh Radner]

How did that happen? No, I think we were friends. So I became friends with Rachel because my friend Amy went to college with her manager. So we started going to her shows and Rachel and I became friends and now we're really good friends.

[Carter Bays]

You might have recommended that we use that song. That song is. I think you did.

[Josh Radner]

I think I did. I. I will take credit for it.

[Carter Bays]

You did. Now it's coming back to me and that boy, that's. I, I was watching last night and I, I said, how beautiful is that song? I mean that. It just sets that tone of that.

[Josh Radner]

Perfect song because it's a waltz and it's got this like undercurrent of late night sadness to it.

[Carter Bays]

Late night sadness. And it feels. Yeah, that's it. It feels sort of sleepy and sad, but a little dizzy. Like there's something about it. That was the perfect moment to. It perfectly landed where Robin got to as she made that phone call to Tina.

[Josh Radner]

Right.

[Carter Bays]

That was our big challenge. How do you make the sale that she would choose that night to call him? And that was what that act of that episode that 20 hours earlier tried to do.

[Josh Radner]

And also little touches like the enormous glass of wine she pours herself. You know, like there's just something. Yeah. We get into those nights where you just feel particularly self pitying and lonely.

[Carter Bays]

Yeah. And it's again like that two in the morning thing of like, I'll always feel this way.

[Josh Radner]

Yeah.

[Carter Bays]

You can very easily convince yourself at two in the morning that I will always feel like this.

[Josh Radner]

The twenties are. You don't have enough experience having gotten through those nights.

[Carter Bays]

Yes.

[Josh Radner]

So those nights when they come feel the dark night of the soul is particularly dark.

[Carter Bays]

Agree, agree. And I think you haven't seen enough of those through to remember what the other side feels like. So you make bad decisions sometimes and you think, yeah, you chase things that maybe you shouldn't. And she's chasing something too. She knows Ted's still with Victoria at that point. Until he lies and says he isn't. Which he needed to. To sort of make the whole story work. Which. Boy, rewatching that moment. That's a big old lie right there from Ted. And he thinks it's a lie. The ends justify the means. The ends are I'm going to marry Robin and this will just all come out in the wash. And boy, it does not work out that way at that moment.

[Josh Radner]

Well, it almost also feels like I'm gonna break up with Victoria in six hours. So what's the harm in changing around the timeline a little bit?

[Carter Bays]

Arguing the semantics, the way we argue the semantics of things to our advantage. And then sometimes karma goes, nope.

[Josh Radner]

Right.

[Carter Bays]

It doesn't always, but sometimes it does. And that isn't how Ted and Robin were meant to begin and it isn't.

[Josh Radner]

He must admit he fell in love with you.

[Carter Bays]

New York City and now commercials.

[Josh Radner]

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[Josh Radner]

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[Carter Bays]

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[Josh Radner]

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[Carter Bays]

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[Carter Bays]

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[Josh Radner]

Did you guys have any discussion if you can remember on like, like the juicing is so funny. Like I got this new juice maker. Do you want some juice? Like it's so lame but also like somewhat plausible. Like it's just such a strange thing that they both know it's ridiculous. They know that's not really what's going on. But they, they, they jump into it with such gusto, the two of them. And he comes over with like fruits and vegetables.

[Carter Bays]

He got a lot of stuff at the late night.

[Josh Radner]

He got a lot of stuff at the bodega. Yeah, that can't be like, the best quality.

[Carter Bays]

And immediately she's like, want some wine? And it's just so funny. It's. They abandoned the juicing immediately.

[Josh Radner]

Will juice. And what does he say to we're. We're juicing as friends to the cab.

[Carter Bays]

Driver juicing his friends. So funny. I love future narrator Ted's presence in this one where just every so often he'll just be like, go to bed. He's. It's like he's watching it with us. He's. He's like the. The football announcer. Like, no, they shouldn't run that play.

[Josh Radner]

Right?

[Carter Bays]

Stop it. Don't do that.

[Josh Radner]

That I also love when Marshall pops in with it's too late for Juice.

[Carter Bays]

It's too Late for juice. It's so funny. It's. You know, I love. There's certain movies like this, too, where you go into the movie knowing all the bad things that are going to happen. And the joy is in watching exactly how bad it gets and how badly they unfold. This episode is like that, right? This episode is, you're going in there like, no one went into Titanic. Like, I wonder what's going to happen to that shit. Right? This episode is kind of like the ship's gonna sink.

[Josh Radner]

Right.

[Carter Bays]

It's just the details along the way.

[Josh Radner]

That, I mean, in that way, it's both classical theater, but it's also a bit of a horror film in some ways.

[Carter Bays]

Yeah. It's late at night. There's scary. I love the shout out to John Swihart, our composer. Like, the. Really. Cause Rachel Yamagata is great. The music placements. That's Andy Gowen and Josh Radner bringing you those songs. Andy Gowen's our music supervisor, the composer. If you listen to the score, it's very like, there's kind of like a Moonlight Sonata kind of like creepy, sort of lazy at night classical. But there's some tone of late at nightness that is set by that score that is really great. So shout out to John Swihart on that one.

[Josh Radner]

I remember Neil and Jason loved. They get in a fight, right? Like, they get in a. And they have to scream at each other over that tv.

[Carter Bays]

Oh, I know what you're going to say. I know what line it's.

[Josh Radner]

I'll show you things you've never seen before from Jason. Is that the one you're getting?

[Carter Bays]

Yes, he says that, but I have a different favorite, jibber jabber improv that he threw at that moment, which is, I used to box in the army.

[Josh Radner]

Wait, is that. Is that Neil or Jason?

[Carter Bays]

Jason. Jason spits on both of those in rapid succession.

[Josh Radner]

Those were his lines, right?

[Carter Bays]

I think he just improvised those. Yeah.

[Josh Radner]

I don't think for some reason, the one I caught was, I'll show you things you've never seen before.

[Carter Bays]

What's that mean?

[Alec Lev]

You can find that on. On YouTube. You can find the full sort of outtake of just the two of them yelling.

[Carter Bays]

There's also a great outtake if you look up the bloopers of him when Kobe pours that giant bottle of wine and starts drinking it, and she's just drinking it and drinking it, and you hear Pam Freeman go. It goes on and on. And Kobe clearly is wondering, when's Pam going to call Cut. And Pam just says, I'm just. I'm just going to have you drink the whole thing. And she's like, God damn it, Pam. It's a very funny Hemian blooper. You can find it. Yeah, it's. Everyone was bringing their A game on this one. And I also love Barney's kind of side quest, if you will, of like. Like, we're gonna make this night legendary, and I'm gonna disprove this truism from Ted's mom. And I love that they all know Ted's mom's line. You know what Ted's mom always says? The whole group of friends reframes it that way.

[Josh Radner]

Well, he's probably. In fact, so many times when they want to stay where Barney wants to stay out, and he's like, well, Mrs.

[Carter Bays]

Mosby says Ted has probably tried to talk Barney out of terrible things, but with that phrase. And now here, Ted is no better than Barney in this moment.

[Josh Radner]

I mean, it's kind of like Barney's whole meta narrative is he's a magician who pulls it out of the hat at the last moment. Right. Like, he's really just. Just. We can turn lead into gold any. Any time if we just decide. And it doesn't even have to be sex. It doesn't have to be exciting. It can be weird. Like, Korean Elvis serenading Lily is like, good enough.

[Carter Bays]

Licking the Liberty Bell. That's not sexual. It sounds sexual, but it's not. But, yeah, I. I think it had.

[Josh Radner]

To have never been done before.

[Carter Bays]

He's in. In search.

[Josh Radner]

New is always better, right?

[Carter Bays]

New is always better. He's of the legendary and sometimes women, and sometimes it's not. And I really like how I thought of this. Watching this episode. The characters are very aware of. The characters are aware they're in a story in a way.

[Josh Radner]

Right.

[Carter Bays]

Sort of characters react as if they know a future person has re enlivened. It's sort of making them relive the story and they're vaguely aware of the story's happening as it's happening. And like Barney saying, like, you know, there's a freeze frame after Lily kicks Karine Elvis in the nards. And freeze frame narrator says, that would become known as the night Lily kicked Korean Elvis the nards. And immediately you come out of the freeze frame. Barney's like, hey, guys, remember that time Lily kicks Korean Elvis the nards. It happened five seconds ago. This idea of, like, branding things. We will remember this. Future us will tell this story. Hey, Ted, don't do this. You're screwing it up for future you. Future you, if you get with Robin, does not want to start your life together on a crime. There's just this weird kind of meta narrative thing.

[Josh Radner]

Even the whole show starts with, you know, we're gonna tell. I'm gonna tell my kids about this night. Like, he. Yes, Ted in particular is. And Barney, too are very. They all are. You can make the case. They all are. They mythologize their life in the moment. They. They Jean shepherd their life. They make it. You know, what's that? There's that Richard Rohr line or someone said this. If you don't mythologize your life, you'll pathologize your life. Like, it's actually really. It's really healthy to look at your life in. In this kind of narrative way. So you can also see if you, if you. If you mythologize your life, if you look at your life narratively, you can see that. I think it's really healthy. Like, one of the things about. One of the features of depression, say, is that you feel like nothing's ever going to change and nothing's ever going happen to.

[Carter Bays]

To.

[Josh Radner]

It's static. It's never going to change. But if you're in a story, you know that stories are always changing. Characters are always growing, characters are always moving through things and getting onto other adventures. And I think it's actually, you know, we don't want to be grandiose about it, but I think there is. There's something healthy about looking at your life from a narrative context. Yeah, but you have to hover a little over your life to do that.

[Carter Bays]

I think that's right. You have to be. You have to be seeking some kind of meaning or pattern in your life in the moment to even imagine that a meaning and pattern will emerge. And I think that's what the show is, and the characters are aware of that.

[Josh Radner]

And it's a little chicken or egg. It's like you can be on the hunt for meaning and pattern, or you can have detected a lot of meaning and patterns, but, you know, just honoring that they are there.

[Carter Bays]

But even as. And what Ted's doing in this one is he's trying to change the meaning with words in the moment and saying, well, if I'm going to break up with her tomorrow, it's the same thing as if I already broke up with her. Which he doesn't know that's why she was calling. He does not know that. And he's so rationalizing himself into what he wants in that moment, and he's trying to kind of create a different meaning that isn't really the truth. And the truth. It kind of. There's kind of an organ transplant rejection happens there of attempt to turn it into this other narrative. And it's like, nope, I'm sorry. That's not gonna fit here.

[Josh Radner]

I think it's funny how, like, Ted takes the juice thing literally in that he goes and buys vegetables and. But it's really, as we said, it's not about the juice. Except for Marshall. He's like, and then she's gonna make you some delicious juice. Like. Like you're helpless. Like, you're walking into the lion's den. Who. Who could resist that delicious juice?

[Carter Bays]

He's gonna lure you in with carrot celery juice. Yeah. Yeah, it's. And it's funny that Ted buys all this stuff because it goes along with the narrative. He wants to believe that's what's happening. So he's like, if I buy this, if I buy these vegetables, then surely that's the story.

[Josh Radner]

It's almost like the vegetables and the fruit are his armor. Like, if I hold these in front of me, does this mean I'm going over here in good faith? Because she said, let's make some juice. Right? Yes. I will say, just a shout out to Kobe. Fantastic bit of acting when he said, when Ted tells Robin we broke up, and she's the smiling while saying the other words.

[Carter Bays]

A.

[Josh Radner]

A.

[Carter Bays]

A superstar acting. I mean, just hilarious and, like, full of, like. It's like it's a moment that is electric. Cause you're like, they're, oh, this is on. But it's also funny. But it's also good acting. Like, it's. Yeah, it's. I thought the same thing. She's so great.

[Josh Radner]

I liked when. When Ted is on the phone with Lily. And Lily's talking some, like, kind of ethical sense into him. I remember I. I was doing something like. Like, damn it. Like, which I think I stole from Dustin Hoffman somewhere in Tootsie, like, there's some sort of, like, good thing to steal from. Damn it.

[Carter Bays]

Like, why are you always right?

[Josh Radner]

I really like the. That face is not for her. He's not doing it audibly. It's just his own internal combustion, you know?

[Carter Bays]

Yeah, I love that moment too. That is an excellent half of a phone call. Acting. Which, of course you're not really acting with Alison Hanigan at that moment. Someone is off screen reading her lines with you. And you were just. You were very in it in this episode. You were very in the dilemma. And I will say, say, just to defend Ted for a second, he's not just trying to have sex with a pretty girl. He does love Robin. Like, there is that other side to it. He's. There he is imagining something deeper that will come from this.

[Josh Radner]

You know, this isn't like drunk at McLaren's making out with. Yeah. The girl who just got broken up with. Yeah.

[Carter Bays]

It's not Barney. He's not. Yeah. He's not being Barney. There is some. Ted does not not have a. You know what I mean? There is something there. Which is what makes this so interesting. Of a dilemma, I think.

[Josh Radner]

Well, it's also. You guys constructed it in such a way that you brought the long distance headache of it to the boiling point where it's like, I can't connect with her. I feel so far away from her.

[Carter Bays]

That seed's been planted.

[Josh Radner]

Yeah. It's really. Yeah. It's masterfully constructed to have all of it kind of come to a head and explode in this episode. It's engineered. Tip of the hat dramaturgically to you guys.

[Carter Bays]

Thank you. And huge shout out to Carter Bayes, who I do believe felt like this one was more him than me. Although I think we both really loved working on this one. But the idea of the ghostly Victoria, I feel like that was Carter because I just remember being so excited about it in a way that makes me feel like it wasn't my idea because it was my idea. I've proud of, been like, eh, it's okay. Rule of writing number one, everything's better with a ghost. You know what I mean? It just makes it very exciting. There's a ghost in this episode and you're like, oh, oh, I didn't know they were doing ghosts on this CBS sitcom at 8:00'. Clock. I Didn't know we're doing Hamlet here.

[Alec Lev]

I'd like to point out that I think I could be wrong. I think this might be your first. Right. Right after the original. Right, right. And it's subtle. It's right as you're getting on top of. Until Ted is kissing Robin. You're kissing, and she says something, and you.

[Carter Bays]

I can't believe that we're making it. Right, right. Um, yeah. It's great. You guys were really electric in that whole thing. It was just like, what's gonna happen? It's a suspense episode. It's a ghost story. It's a little bit of a horror movie. And there's a Korean Elvis. It kind of is everything you could ever ask for in 22 minutes of TV. I think I like this one.

[Josh Radner]

I loved when Marshall says, you just got burned. Phonics style.

[Carter Bays]

Phonics style. I guarantee you that was Chris or Phil that was. Or you.

[Josh Radner]

That could be a.

[Carter Bays]

You could have been me. But I think it was Miller. Lord Miller. Cause if it was me, it's just me stealing their verbatim, I think their vernacular. That's a very. Kristen Phil shout out to them.

[Josh Radner]

When did you guys come up with the kind of ultimate plot point, which is the phone switcheroo?

[Carter Bays]

I mean, again, I think technologically we're like. Sometimes that happens. Because it's 2006. I think it was. How do we. What really undoes Ted here? And it could really only be that. I think it was just by process of elimination. Like what will destroy everything. If Robin hears directly from Victoria, it destroys everything. And we just, I think, concocted a way that could happen. She's not gonna walk in the door. She didn't get on a plane from Germany to come surprise Ted at Robin's apartment. Right. It had to be that. I think we just got there. But when we got. When watching it last night for the first time in many years, I was delighted by it. Cause I was like, surprising, but inevitable and maybe a little technologically outd, but. But it works, right? It works. We never said it was in 2006, but when he.

[Josh Radner]

When he comes out there and. And she's on the phone and her whole energy is so different. And, you know, I remember Ben Lee, my. My dear friend, who I used to make music with as Radnor and Lee, as I'm always plugging my other project. But he told me that we used to talk about how bad we are or would be at being like, bad dudes. Like, I, I, I, I, I never wrote this song, but I thought it was kind of like a good line for a country song to say, I dance poorly when I dance with the devil.

[Carter Bays]

Oh, that is a good line.

[Josh Radner]

Like, like, my moves don't work when I'm dancing with the devil.

[Carter Bays]

Right.

[Josh Radner]

And Ben told me, he said, you know, I tried on, like, the costume of, like, a dickish rocker for, like, a couple months, and everyone was like, what are you doing?

[Carter Bays]

You can't do this.

[Josh Radner]

You can't do this. But other people who. That's their whole brand, they just start off, they do it. And not only do they do it, they seem to get away with it for quite a while, right?

[Carter Bays]

Yes.

[Josh Radner]

But if you're. If you're constitutionally a nice, kind, thoughtful.

[Carter Bays]

Person, it's going to eat you alive.

[Josh Radner]

Karma gets quicker. Karma gets you much faster. And I feel like, how many times Barney, like. But how many times is Barney, like, given a false name, had a whole false thing? And he just seems to get away with it because he never claimed to be anything different. Whereas Ted, actually, the ethics does matter to him. He does want to be a good guy. He is constitutionally honest. And when he tries to deceive Victoria and himself on a huge level and Robin, it comes. It boomerangs so fast back at him.

[Carter Bays]

It's really true, because guys like Barney, even though there's definitely a heart and soul in there, as we've discussed and as we see as the seasons go on, Barney's in the armor building business. You know, Barney's building armor, starting with that suit. And the more bad crap you do, the more you build up your armor, I think. And when you're the guy that doesn't do the bad stuff, and you do it once, you get burned and it hits you and there's no armor there. And that's kind of what the end of this episode is and why. It's why the future narrator, Ted, frames the story the way he does. He gets burned.

[Josh Radner]

But that's what I mean, though, about How I Met yout Mother being a moral or ethical universe where, like, you can't. You can't. You can't get away with it that long. Like. Like there's some sort of comeuppance for unethical behavior.

[Carter Bays]

By the way, here's another good country song title. Nothing good happens after 2:00am Please, somebody, please, somebody write that country song and send it to us.

[Josh Radner]

It's a good one. We have reached a point in our show that we like to call Questions and observ. From a Clinical psychologist who's never seen How I Met yout Mother and also happens to be married to Josh.

[Craig Thomas]

I like this episode because it shows Ted wrestling with a moral dilemma. We get to see his conscience at work. Lily and Marshall sort of represent the angel on his shoulder, his moral compass. And Barney is, you know, a little more devilish, let's say. And it's interesting to watch Ted stuck in between with Victoria as a literal manifestation of him negotiating between the two parts of himself. The part that just wants to say whatever and be with Robin and feels like the right thing to do is to follow his heart. And the part that knows that the right thing to do is to be honest. And I just think as an audience member, watching Ted go through this makes him even more multidimensional, even more human. We all have that devil and angel on our shoulders. It's relatable. And then even further, watching him mess up and get burned, that too is relatable. So I just think this episode, while painful to watch, goes a long way in making Ted a character that feels more real to us.

[Carter Bays]

That's so smart. And that was very much the intention. And we were like, we've said it a couple times this season. It's really interesting, the moments we pick to show that Ted messes up too, and that he's not gonna be giving some amazing speech every week. He's not always gonna want the right thing. Underneath all of this nefariousness in this episode is something true hearted and sweet at the core of it. Ted really does love Robin, and he really did love her before he ever met Victoria. But he's not doing the right thing here. And I do think that humanizes him. This is one of my favorite Ted episodes of season one and maybe of the series because of exactly what Jordan. I couldn't say it better myself. That's what makes this one so interesting and makes Ted so human. And I feel like your performance in this one, you felt it, you felt excited acting in this episode. And I could see.

[Josh Radner]

Yeah, well, it's also. It's also true, like, if I. If someone presents themselves to me as this kind of, like, infallible kind of exemplar of moral rectitude, I find it actually not only boring, but, like, quite suspicious. Right. I think there's something about, like, piety is very kind of overrated and annoying, but if someone presents, hey, I'm vulnerable, I'm flawed, let me tell you three ways I messed up.

[Carter Bays]

Oh, yeah.

[Josh Radner]

Do you want to connect? You want to have a Conversation or. Can I tell you what I learned? That is how we solicit, kind of. We get people on our team by. By showing how human we are, not how perfect we are, infallible we are.

[Carter Bays]

Yeah.

[Josh Radner]

You know, that all that does is kind of make us turn on ourselves and go, oh, I'm not like this guy. I'm not like this person. Right. But I think also when you're creating a character that you're presumably. We didn't know it at the time, but gonna follow for eight more seasons. You want to feel like there. You know, I think that's one of the things I'm most proud of about Ted, is that he. While his heart was in the right place, his feet were often pointed in the wrong direction, you know, or his head was going one way, his heart was going another way, his dick was going another way. Like, there he was at. He was a man at odds with himself a lot.

[Carter Bays]

Yes.

[Josh Radner]

But he ultimately learned he had to learn patience. He had to learn.

[Carter Bays]

Yeah.

[Josh Radner]

He had to fail more. He had to struggle. And. And I would say by the. When I started playing Ted, I also had to. To get a little scuffed up more, you know?

[Carter Bays]

Yeah.

[Josh Radner]

And I think we all, you know, I. I think that's a good thing to teach, whether it's your kids or anyone else you're teaching. Like, don't bemoan your failures. Your failures are where your character gets forged.

[Carter Bays]

Yes.

[Josh Radner]

You know, and I think that's what he's telling his kids on some level. Like. Like, your old man really stepped in it in this one.

[Carter Bays]

Yeah. And he's not hiding it from them. He's not being pious. He's not being falsely pious, and he's.

[Josh Radner]

Not hiding it from them. And that. In that. That shows. Should solicit a kind of trust from his kids. Like.

[Carter Bays]

Yeah.

[Josh Radner]

Like, I'm an honest. You know, my. My. Both my sisters, who I think are wonderful mothers, they. They apologize to their kids. They say, I'm not. Yeah. I screwed up this time. Or that I'm not going to get everything right. I'm. I'm winging it. I'm trying to figure this out as we go.

[Carter Bays]

Yeah.

[Josh Radner]

So I'm really sorry. I think I misjudged that one.

[Carter Bays]

Yeah.

[Josh Radner]

And. And I think that's the best thing you can do is.

[Carter Bays]

That's the best thing you can do is. That is very much what I tell my nanny to tell my kids. I don't really spend much time with my kids. That's a joke.

[Josh Radner]

That's My God, your dad really screwed up this time. When he's back from his yacht trip, he's going to take you for ice cream.

[Carter Bays]

No, that's the best thing. You can show your kids that level of honesty. And I'm a human being. And I think future Ted's a good dad for doing that. And he may overshare at times, but I do think that showing your kid that you're a human being is huge because then they get to be, too. And that's a gift.

[Josh Radner]

Well, we've reached the final act of our episode, and something we like to do on this last part of the episode is read one of the many astonishingly beautiful letters that we receive. We love how we made your mother. Yeah, yeah. They're so good. So if you would like. Again, a reminder, if you'd like to send us a letter, let us know what the show has meant to you and what your relationship is with the show. Or you can write us a letter. You can record an audio, but go to how we made your mother.com, go to contact and follow the instructions there should be pretty clear. Today's letter is from Shiwon. Hi, my Name's Shiwon. I'm 23 years old and I'm from North Wales, although I'm currently living in London. I've been thinking about what to say here since the podcast came out, but now I have something I really want to say. Trust the process here. I don't remember when I first started watching History. It used to air on E4, a British TV channel, when I just started exploring grown up TV for myself. So I must have been around nine or 10 years old. It's a little young to watch a show, but that's fine. But it's safe to say I don't remember not watching him for years. I wanted to be a news reporter like Robin, and then I wanted to be a judge like Marshall. Around the time the podcast first came out, I was applying for a master's course in screenwriting. I'd been offered an interview and was preparing for it. I was listening to the podcast. I heard Josh talk about the Kierkegaard quote about only being able to live your life forwards and a penny dropped. I can't tell you how much that resonated with me growing up watching himyim. Call it nature or nurture, I found myself to be a person who looks obsessively for signs from the universe and tries her best to romanticize reality. I actually used the Kierkegaard Josh quote. I'm glad I'm getting credited for this quote in my interview and I found out today that I got in. All right, kick. Congrats. Master's courses and Danish philosophers aside, him has played a really big role in my life. From when I'd watch episodes on E4 to when I began to collect the DVDs at age 12 to now my 20s. I wasn't the happiest of teenagers, but here was this show that taught me to trust the process of my life, to look for signs from the universe, and to romanticize everything in my life, from the good to the really crappy. Because those were the things that shaped my story.

[Carter Bays]

Story.

[Josh Radner]

At my lowest, I'll still go back to find a speech of Ted's to ground me, and whenever I see a yellow umbrella in the wild, I take it as a sign to keep trusting the process. So thank you for a wonderful show that has taught me and so many others that simply, everything will be okay. Thanks for this podcast and its help with Masters interviews. Love from the Other side of the Atlantic. She won. Aspiring Screenwriter no Longer aspiring Judge.

[Carter Bays]

Fantastic. Congratulations. That's the best. I love everything about that.

[Josh Radner]

Romanticize reality. I like that phrase. And you know, it's a lot of what, it's a lot of what we were talking about. You know, I like, I think to. To have a show where everything works out and people just keep going from success to success to success feels really dishonest. And, and we were trying to. We were trying to make an honest show. I am guilty. Please acquit me. All sins are forgiven in New York City.

[Alec Lev]

How We Made youe Mother is hosted and executive produced by Josh Radner and Craig Thomas. The show was produced by me, Alec Lev, and our co producer is Doug Matica. Our audio producer and mixer is Alex Reeves at Point of Blue Studios and our digital content producer, AKA Gen Z Master is Emily Blumberg. Artwork by John Morrow. Please follow, rate and review the show on Apple Podcasts or your podcast player of choice. It really does help the show. Our theme song is NYC by our own Josh Radner, with additional music by Craig Thomas and Andrew mc. Special thanks to Lola Kennedy and Elliot Connors. Visit how we madeyourmother.com to sign up for our substack mailing list and for links to our social media. You can also click on the contact page to send us an email or a voice message. Your stories and questions are an important part of the show.

[Josh Radner]

Want some merch?

[Alec Lev]

Click on the store link or go to howyougetyourmerch.com subscribe to Josh Radner's Muse Let On Substack. Order Craig Thomas debut [e-mail] novel and you could subscribe to My Dead Fathers Society, also on Substack, to learn about how you make a difference. This show's ongoing campaign to raise money for congenital heart disease research. Check out the Make a Difference tab at the top of our website. This episode was made possible by the support of the Backyard Ventures. People will in fact dance the real.

[Josh Radner]

Question it just hit me. Am I in love with you or just New York City? This is the story of the One he's responsible for keeping a leading health care facility clean and safe. And he trusts Green Ranger's high quality H Vac cleaning and safety products combined with their world class supply chain to consistently deliver, ensuring he's covered inside and out so he can focus on keeping his facility clean to help protect the health of everyone inside. Call 1-800-GRAINGER clickranger.com or just stop by Granger for the ones who get it done.