How that Wasn't Ted | S2E4 "Ted Mosby: Architect"

Summary

Podcast Summary: How We Made Your Mother | S2E4 "Ted Mosby: Architect" Podcast: How We Made Your Mother
Hosts: Josh Radnor and Craig Thomas
Air Date: November 10, 2025
Episode Discussed: Season 2, Episode 4 - “Ted Mosby: Architect”
Key Theme: Exploring how “How I Met Your Mother” (HIMYM) balances humor, heartfelt narrative, and clever storytelling devices—while reflecting on music, relationships, and growing up.

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1. Episode Overview

Josh Radnor and Craig Thomas, joined by producer Alec Lev, revisit the classic “Ted Mosby: Architect”—an iconic episode which uses narrative misdirection, explores relationship insecurity, and highlights music’s influence both within the show and upon its fans. The conversation mixes behind-the-scenes insights with reflections on the show’s cultural legacy and the way its stories resonate personally and collectively.

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2. Key Discussion Points and Insights

A. The Power of Music in HIMYM

• Audience Connection: The episode opens with a fan (Cam) sharing how music in HIMYM inspired him to pursue a career in music. Cam observes that Ted’s musical preferences (George Harrison, Otis Redding) are woven into his emotional narrative.
  • [00:54] Cam: "It definitely taught me how to care about what you love and not be ashamed to nerd out about it. If you surround yourself with the right people, they'll support it."
• Music Supervision: Josh and Craig praise longtime music supervisor Andy Gowan and recount how music choices, both big hits and emerging bands, shaped the show’s vibe.
• Song Placement: End of the episode features “Here I Dreamt I Was an Architect” by The Decemberists, chosen in part for title synergy but ultimately resonating with Ted’s journey.
  • [04:35] Josh Radnor: “It would lead me to go, oh my god, I can't believe I'm on a sitcom on CBS that has the coolest music. It always delighted me.”

B. Episode Plot and Narrative Structure

• Summary: This episode centers on Ted and Robin’s first fight. Robin, inexperienced in coupledom, finds herself anxious, fearing Ted may be cheating on her. Rumors swirl—“Ted Mosby, Architect” is seen partying, flirting, and behaving out of character. The twist: Barney is impersonating Ted to meet women, stoking Robin’s insecurities.
  • [09:48] Craig Thomas: “…the journey of the episode is her thinking that Ted has stormed off and is perhaps cheating on her, using his hot job as an architect…”
• Narrative Device: The “double perspective” is discussed—a story first shown from Robin’s paranoid viewpoint, then reframed with the truth—reinforcing the show’s fondness for mysteries embedded within its storytelling.

C. Relationship Dynamics and Emotional Growth

• Robin’s Vulnerability: The episode marks a turning point as Robin reckons with relationship stakes and her avoidance tendencies. Her willingness to “go a little crazy” is framed as necessary and growthful.
  • [16:47] Craig Thomas: “I love… you watch Robin grow in this one…she starts the episode off so cocky and so kind of dismissive…and watching her spiral and become vulnerable, I really like that moment…”
• Ted’s Journey: Ted’s “complaints” about work—unappreciated by Robin—become symbolic of couple dynamics (“kvetching in”). The hosts share personal anecdotes about learning to balance venting and support in their own relationships.
  • [18:36] Josh Radnor: “We have this thing called kvetching in...full permission. Take 30 seconds to a minute and complain. Like you have a runway. Complain, tell me what. And I won’t try to fix it.”

D. The “Aha” Ending

• Resolution: Robin, worried and humbled, comes to Ted ready to listen, only for Ted to share his architectural dream instead—ushering in a moment of connection and future optimism.
  • [21:10] Craig Thomas: “She literally comes to him and she has an offering…she comes to him with something and he’s able to shift gears out of…she says, I’ll listen to you complain, and he says, no, I don’t need that anymore. Look at my dream…And she says, that’s beautiful. Yeah, it’s a great moment at the end of this episode.”
• Metaphor: Ted’s architecture becomes a metaphor for assembling one’s life—“building, brick by brick”.

E. Comedy, Mystery & Character Play

• Adopting Different Roles: Josh recounts the fun of playing "Ted as Barney"—stepping outside of his usual boundaries as a performer.
  • [25:22] Josh Radnor: “I do remember enjoying immensely playing the rake or playing the like… anything that, like, gives a little Mr. Hyde to the Dr. Jekyll, I always found it to be really fun...”
• Deep Fakes & Perception: Discussion veers to the psychological effects of seeing someone out of character—even when later revealed as fake, it lingers in memory. The episode (and modern concerns with “deep fakes”) plays with this sense of narrative and personal reality.
  • [27:36] Josh Radnor: “You still—it’s like as if you saw it, right? Like, your reptilian brain is like, no, no, no, I saw that happen. That’s true.”
• No B-Story: This episode is a rare example of a single, unified comic/mystery “train”, with Lily’s “relationship Yoda” guidance playing a subtle but important side-note.

F. Running Gags & Notable Jokes

• Field of Dreams Reference: Major running gag about the emotional power of “Field of Dreams”—the male characters are devastated when Robin doesn’t like it.
  • [36:26] Craig Thomas: “How about the Field of Dreams talk that Robin's go to horrible movie is Field of Dreams…The outrage and then the crying, it’s just…There’s a little journey there. The best.”
• Supporting Characters: Marshall’s belief that his breakup with Lily has rocked the law school class—contrasted with the reality that no one cares, illustrating how people center themselves in their own narratives.

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3. Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On Music as Soul:
  • Craig Thomas [06:41]: “Cam’s feeling is, we are in Ted’s mind and soul when we’re hearing those songs. Those are Ted songs, and I like that. That’s cool.”
• On Narrative Mystery:
  • Craig Thomas [09:48]: “It’s a classic How I Met Your Mother. We see the story twice, kind of. We see the story one way that Robin’s imagining it and then the real way…”
• On Relationships:
  • Josh Radnor [20:29]: “The way you fall in love is like, oh my god, she likes the Decemberists, I like the Decemberists…It’s like nature’s way of getting you to fall in love, to release those chemicals. … And then one day you’re like, oh, we actually have some real differences…That’s when you really—I think that’s a moment of reckoning…”
• On the Creative Process:
  • Craig Thomas [59:18]: “Something happens in a good writer’s room where it just becomes like one big brain thinking.”
• On Comfort TV:
  • Josh Radnor [42:18]: "Like, you just know the movie that well… the psychological pleasure in returning to a show over and over is in a chaotic world full of unknowns… it calms our nervous system to know, ‘Oh, I know what’s going to happen in this episode…’"

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4. Listener Letters and Questions

A. Cam’s Message on Music & Passion (00:54)

• Sparked a long discussion on how music selection is core to both the show and its fandom.

B. Sebastian’s Letter from Mexico City (62:10)

• Shares how HIMYM helped him cope with isolation, depression, and growing up; gifted to him by his older sister as a life raft during hard times.
  • Craig Thomas [65:55]: “That show will make you cool. If you listen to this with a candle lit, you'll see your future. Like, it really had that feeling of that, the cool older sister giving the thing to the kid. …The fact that she did this with How I Met Your Mother just means the world, and I'm so glad it found you and met you where you were and needed it.”

C. Technical Questions (Spokane Building Code) (51:18)

• A listener asks why Spokane, WA, was chosen as the site for Ted’s skyscraper, pointing out its restrictive building code.
  • Craig Thomas [52:04]: "It is a huge building in a really small town in retrospect, but the fact that we've been fact checked and debunked, we have absolutely violated the city code or something of Spokane, Washington. You got us. What can you do but take the hit in a scenario like this? You got us."

D. Song Selection for Episode (53:17)

• Listener asks if Decemberists’ lyrics were purposefully chosen to match theme or just for the title.
  • Craig Thomas [53:52]: “Definitely the latter at first...But the tone and the feeling and the vibe of it, it’s very Ted. …There’s a lot of things that get us in the first, but when you listen to the lyrics, it's very smart, it's very heartfelt.“

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5. Meta & Behind-the-Scenes: The Writer’s Room

• Writers often incorporated elements from their own lives and obsessions, but once actors became involved, and episodes accumulated, the show took on a hive-mind life of its own.
  • [59:58] Josh Radnor: “...it just came out of the room, you know, it's just the magic.”
• Creative analogies discussed, e.g., Brian Eno’s differentiation between “architects” (with fixed plans) and “gardeners” (who cultivate and allow organic growth).
  • [56:14] Josh Radnor: “...he makes a distinction between being an architect and a gardener or a farmer. And he says he always wants to be a gardener…”

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6. Notable Timestamps for Key Segments

• [00:54] Cam’s fan message about music’s influence
• [03:13] Deep dive into music choices and HIMYM’s “music nerd” culture
• [09:35] Episode plot summary and the “twist” structure
• [16:47] Robin’s emotional journey and relationship avoidance
• [21:10] Discussion of ending scene—the dream of Ted’s building
• [25:22] Josh on enjoying “playing the rake” and stepping out of Ted’s usual persona
• [27:36] Effects of “deep fakes” and narrative misdirection
• [36:26] “Field of Dreams” as a touchstone for the male characters
• [44:39] Lily as “relationship Yoda” and Lily/Marshall runner
• [51:18] Listener questions begin—Spokane skyscraper
• [53:17] On The Decemberists’ song choice
• [62:10] Sebastian’s letter on HIMYM as a source of comfort and belonging

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7. Final Thoughts & Takeaways

• Music & Memory: HIMYM’s careful song choices continue to forge lasting bonds with viewers, creating soundtracks for both characters and fans.
• Narrative Craft: The show’s use of mystery and unreliable narrative is a key part of its enduring appeal.
• Emotional Themes: Honest depictions of early adulthood, friendship, and love—blending humor with heartfelt moments—give the show its staying power and personal resonance.
• Fan Community: The letters and discussions highlight how HIMYM has been a touchstone during personal struggles—a “home” people return to for comfort, laughter, and perspective.

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For more fan interaction or to submit your own stories, visit howwemadeyourmother.com.

Transcript

[Josh Radnor]

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[Alec Lev]

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[Cam]

My name is Cam. I'm from Estero, Florida. What does How I Met yout Mother mean to me? It means a lot, actually. I started watching it early high school, and I fell in love with it, man. Like, I've watched it ever since. I'm in college now. I really resonated with a lot of the characters in the show, but mostly Ted and his music choices. I noticed, you know, like a lot of the times when Ted falls in love, it's George Harrison will play. And you know, he loves Otis Redding. So sometimes, like cigarettes and coffee will play. It's like he had this soundtrack to his life. And I remember I showed up to my entrepreneurship class, they asked us, you know, what do you want to do with your life? I knew in that moment that it was music, you know, I wanted to give people a soundtrack to their lives. I wanted to help people. You know, it's the reason I started a record label this year, you know, from the ground up. Me and a bunch of people, a bunch of nerds about music. So I guess I love how I met your mother for a lot of reasons, but it definitely taught me how to care about what you love and not be ashamed to nerd out about it. And if you surround yourself with the right people, they'll support it. So hope this reaches you guys. Big fan of the show. Have a great day.

[Josh Radnor]

I'm alone what a pity I won't be soon In New York City When I see you Please permit me to tell you everything in New York City. Hello and welcome to another episode of How We Made youe Mother, where I, Josh Ratner, sit with my very good friend, Craig Thomas.

[Craig Thomas]

Hi, Craig. Hey there, Josh.

[Josh Radnor]

And we talk about a TV show that we made now many years ago together. It was called How I Met yout Mother. It ran on CBS from 2005 to 2014. I played Ted Mosby on that show, the I in How I Met yout Mother. And Craig co created the show with his college bud, Carter Bayes.

And.

And yeah, we just heard an awesome voice note from.

[Craig Thomas]

I loved that.

[Josh Radnor]

That was so great. That was so great.

[Craig Thomas]

I feel the music part is such a big part of the show and such a big part of our bond. And Carter's bond with you. Like, music really was. We all liked the same stuff, right? It really put us on the same page right away. Music. So the fact that music speaks to this, to that, to that guy is, like, the best. I love him.

[Josh Radnor]

You know, we could. We really need to have Andy Gowen on the show, our music supervisor, who also, incidentally, was the music supervisor on both of my movies on Happy thank youk. More, please. And Liberal Arts, just because we had had this great music vibe going already. Yeah, yeah. But speaking of music, I mean, you could really, if you are a music fan, I think How I Met yout Mother has a lot of delights. You know, a lot of, like, classic old songs that you would definitely know, and a lot of new kind of earworms that. That we broke. You know, some bands on the show you guys were always so great about. I would play you some stuff, and some of it really caught you, and you put it on the show. And I got to become friends with the bands and the artists. And I was also. When I joined Twitter, I started doing a song of the day. Remember, I used to do that for years.

[Craig Thomas]

Yeah, you should bring that back. I'm on Twitter, though.

[Josh Radnor]

I'm not on Twitter. RIP Twitter. But in this episode, it ends with just jumping to the end. We're doing Ted Mosby, Architect today. Episode four, Season two. Alec, tell us when this episode aired.

[Alec Lev]

This episode was written by Kristin Newman, and it aired on October 9, 2006.

[Josh Radnor]

Wow. Almost exactly 19.

[Craig Thomas]

It's October 19 years ago, and we're basically sitting here on that day. We're recording right around then. So symmetry.

[Josh Radnor]

Well, this episode just jumping to the end, ends with a song by the Decemberists called Here I Dreamt I Was an Architect. Is that what it was called?

[Craig Thomas]

Yeah. Yeah. People loved that song on this show. It's written for this Show. It's the perfect placement. I gotta give credit where it's due. Gloria Calderon Kellett pitched that song. That was her. She made a very cool mix of, like, she knew we loved music. She was like, here's a bunch of songs that say Hymn to Me. And one of them was that song. And I think that's how we got it, to put it on there so it really could come from anywhere. Everyone knew he loved music.

[Josh Radnor]

And I, again, almost like the Bell and Sebastian song in. In episode in season one, when I would. When I would watch the show or know that it was ending with a song like, by the Decemberists, who, at that point, I think they were having. They were kind of breaking right around then. Like, they had this really big album. I think that song is from that record.

[Craig Thomas]

Right?

[Josh Radnor]

And, you know, we got to be at the forefront of that. And I. And. And it would. It would lead me to go, oh, my God, I can't believe I'm on a sitcom on CBS that has the coolest music. It. It always delighted me.

[Craig Thomas]

Cam, I love that you singled out Otis Redding and Georgia Harrison and some of the coolest, like, timeless, kind of classic people. We didn't always get to. We didn't have enough money to put those ones on every week. But finding that balance between those big ones and then finding cool, smaller stuff, which at the time, the Decemberists kind of were a little cool and smaller.

[Josh Radnor]

Now kind of have, like, a timeless, classic feel to them. But there's something also about what he noticed around needle drops for Ted on these big moments were these swelling kind of classic, you know, classic voices, classic artists. I think the thing about Ted that I always tried to hold onto was I wanted to believe I was playing a character who would age well. Both the character would age well, and he would literally. I wanted him to age well, you.

[Craig Thomas]

Know, and be okay.

[Josh Radnor]

But there's something about using those classic artists as needle drops to signify these big moments were, like, almost outside the bounds of time and space. They were just.

[Craig Thomas]

Yeah, but Cam's right. The way that Cam took it is so cool. He says that we're in Ted's shoes when we're hearing those songs. Cam's feeling is, we are in Ted's mind and soul when we're hearing those songs. Those are Ted songs, and I like that. That's cool. It is a story being told by future Ted, and somehow these songs, in some metaphysical way, are part of future Ted's brain and soul. And that's what it said to Cam. I kind of love that.

[Josh Radnor]

And I also love where he took it. He said the show taught him it was okay to love things, to okay to double down on them and be dorky, like, go really deep into it. I mean, I struggled sometimes because I felt like sometimes Ted's enthusiasm was slapped around by the gang, but it never at times, was it Carter was reading, like, a Teddy Roosevelt biography. And then suddenly Ted was obsessed with Teddy Roosevelt.

[Craig Thomas]

Right?

[Josh Radnor]

Yeah, right. Like he was reading those, like, doorstop books.

[Craig Thomas]

That is absolutely true. Carter would proudly admit to it. And Carter's very good at getting very obsessed with something, and it grabbed him and it had to go on the show.

[Josh Radnor]

Right. Often through my character.

[Craig Thomas]

Through your character, yeah. And that was like the catharsis of getting to let go of that and move on to the next obsession.

[Josh Radnor]

So I'm sure you remember this. Cause the first couple seasons, this is back when we were still burning CDs to make mixes for people, which felt like the height of new tech, cutting edge technology.

[Craig Thomas]

I can't believe we can make our own CDs. Nothing's ever going to top this technology.

[Josh Radnor]

So every couple weeks, I would burn CDs for the cast. And I think that I know Ali and Kobe really loved it. I think Jason liked it. I never knew if Neil liked it, to be honest, but I would give them all. And in episode, what was the one? Victoria. Zip, zip, zip. Does he make Victoria a mix called Ted Scapes?

[Craig Thomas]

Oh, man. Please, fans, help us. I'm not sure if it's in zip, zip, zip. I think that's a different.

[Josh Radnor]

Okay, there's something it's called called tedscapes.

[Craig Thomas]

There's definitely tedscapes.

[Josh Radnor]

Yeah. My friend Jeremiah is staying at a house I still have in Los Angeles, and he was looking for some stuff through the garage, and he just sent me a photo of a Ted Scapes mix that he found in the garage that I'll send to you. Maybe we'll.

[Craig Thomas]

Meaning it was on the show. And then you started calling your mixes. You would make tedscapes or. No, no.

[Josh Radnor]

Oh, yeah, yeah. Tedscapes was on the show. And then I called one of the mixes tedscapes.

[Craig Thomas]

I remember getting handed Ted Scapes by you. That was a scene.

[Josh Radnor]

But that was how me, you, Andy, all became like, music buddies on the show.

[Craig Thomas]

We were just like, we're music nerds. We're exactly what Cam said.

[Josh Radnor]

And Andy started including me in the music drops. He would give you, like, once a week, he would get. Or he would give you, like, a awesome playlist of like new music every episode. Yeah, yeah.

[Craig Thomas]

And you said, I want to be on that chain. Cause I want to hear cool new stuff. And that's Andy Gowen's job, is to find cool new stuff. And he did it.

[Josh Radnor]

Okay, so this episode is also a mystery episode. It starts off with a wtf? What's going on? This is crazy, right? Give us a little summary of what happens in this episode, Craig.

[Craig Thomas]

Yeah. This episode is diving into Ted and Robin's early. It's their first fight. Right. This is their first big problem. Robin thinks Ted. Robin doesn't know how to be in a couple. And she doesn't want to listen to Ted's work complaints. Which of course is a huge part of being in a couple is being able to complain and be complained too. And it's a two way complaint street. And she just doesn't want to deal with it. She's kind of phoning in some aspects of what it takes to be in a couple. And the journey of the episode is her thinking that Ted has stormed off and is perhaps cheating on her, using his hot job as an architect as a way to do that. And I like the journey for Robin in this one. She kind of realizes the stakes of being in a relationship and that you do have to go a little crazy. You do have to be vulnerable. And of course, there's a huge twistaroo. And it's a classic How I Met yout Mother. We see the story twice, kind of. We see the story one way that Robin's imagining it and then the real way, which is that Barney is posing, posing as Ted. And it is. It's a mystery. Like many a great How I Met yout Mother episode, it's remarkable to me in this rewatch how many of these episodes are a little mystery within the larger mystery. Like every second or third episode is somehow a weird little mystery. Like what's going on?

[Josh Radnor]

It's also like a time honored narrative technique.

[Craig Thomas]

Yeah.

[Josh Radnor]

You know, every chapter of Harry Potter ends with like a weird cliffhanger that makes you like, absolutely have to turn the page.

[Craig Thomas]

Definitely. I'm reading it out loud with my daughter right now. And we got to the cliffhanger and she got so worked up she had to run around the room. She just ran around the room. I said to Rebecca, we were reading it all. We read it as a family. We switch off doing the voices. And Cillia was like, ran around the room. He said, what was going on? I said, jesus, I want to write something someday that makes someone run around a fucking room. Because she's nine years old. She's just like, ah. She was running down.

[Josh Radnor]

Just had to throw off the energy. There was just too much.

Yeah.

[Craig Thomas]

She was like, I've got to get this out. Somehow she knew she wasn't going to get to go past the cliffhanger. She had to go to bed.

[Josh Radnor]

I mean, God bless it if you can write something that does that kind of thing.

[Craig Thomas]

I immediately said that. I said, I don't think I've ever written anything that would make someone run around.

[Josh Radnor]

I did that with your book, Craig.

[Craig Thomas]

Thank you, Josh.

[Josh Radnor]

I kept interrupting the audio recording because I kept running around the room and I wrote you this little ditty to sing to you in New York City. We'll be right back.

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And now back to the show. I just realized I saw my, you know, Michael Chernis, my friend Michael Chernis. He's a great actor. He's on severance. He. Yeah, he was on Origin of New Black. He's a longtime friend. We were in drama school at the same time, together. And he.

He.

I saw him in a great play in Fort Greene. And the gist of the play was, this man had died under very strange circumstances, and his wife, for most of the play, doesn't know how to grieve because they were so suspiciously weird. And he was with this young college girl, and she thinks he was having an affair. And the play is done. So I'm not gonna even tell you what it is. But the reversal is, it turns out he was actually being an extra good guy, and someone else was having an affair with her. And it's revealed that he was actually, like, the person she thought he was. She spends the whole play wondering, who was I married to?

[Craig Thomas]

Right?

[Josh Radnor]

And then it turns out, oh, she. She was married to the great, beautiful, kind man that she thought she was married to. And I think there's a lot. There's a lot of narrative techniques of, oh, the person you thought was good was actually had a heart of darkness. And it's a journey into their secret life. Right.

[Craig Thomas]

Yeah.

[Josh Radnor]

That's like a trope. But there's something nice about that play. And this one where it's like, no, he's actually who you think he is.

[Craig Thomas]

Yeah.

[Josh Radnor]

This was a misunderstanding. This was, you know. So the reveal, of course, is that everyone's saying, oh, Ted Mosby, architect, he was here, and, man, he was crazy. And he was seducing everyone. And it turns out it's Barney wearing the costume of Ted, saying, I'm Ted Mosby, architect, and being Barney, but with this different cloak on. Yeah.

[Craig Thomas]

And it's Robin's willingness to go a little crazy, and then realizing that is what it means to be in a relationship. You think you have that other person figured out. He's just going to come home and complain about work. And then it's revealed to you that everyone is a mystery. Right. She goes down this rabbit hole of, like, maybe I don't know this guy at all. Yeah. And it does turn out to be a complete mislead. But it's a good lesson for her to learn. Like, you don't have him figured out. You don't know everything about Ted. It's still early days in this.

[Josh Radnor]

And not only that, the thought that he might be straying and she might be losing him is really hard for her.

[Craig Thomas]

Yeah.

[Josh Radnor]

So it's almost like you don't know what Layouts is a cliche. You don't know what you got until it's gone. Right. She starts fantasizing about, like, oh, he's going away And I will be bereft. And therefore I have to reconceive of who I am in a relationship. I think you guys were still really finding the shtcherbatsky avoidant attachment style. Like second season. Feels like you really dialed that in more.

[Craig Thomas]

Yeah, definitely. I think that's the gift of a long running TV show. You start to peel back the layers. And I love. She starts the episode off so cocky and so kind of dismissive of. I don't have to do the bullshit of couplehood. We'll just skip the bullshit part and we'll just do the fun parts. You can't do that. You know what I mean? That doesn't work. And watching her spiral and become vulnerable, I really like that moment and how Kobi played it where she says, I took the nicest guy in the world and I turned him into a cheater because I took him for granted. She's wrong about that. But it's important for her to take the hit on that one. And you watch Robin grow in this one. You watch her learn something in this one, which I like.

[Josh Radnor]

I went to these two men's retreats with this group called Everyman. E V R Y M A N. If there are any men out there who are looking for more, kind of like to drop into their feelings and lean in more to community, I can't recommend this highly enough. But this, this group, you know, it spun off a weekly men's group that I do every Monday night. And we do this thing called Checking in, which I love very much and Jordana loves it so much that we do it in my marriage, which is essentially, you say, josh checking in. And you, you say, you know, you describe what you're feeling physically and sensations. I feel tightness at the top of my shoulders. I feel scratchiness in my throat. I feel labored breathing. And then you say, any emotions you're feeling? I feel grateful, I feel anxiety, I feel excitement about tonight. And. And I feel thirsty. And then you say, I'm here and I'm in. And then the other person says, aho, which is like a kind of Native American amen. But we developed something where if you don't really want to check in, all you want to do is complain. We call it kvetching in instead of checking in.

[Craig Thomas]

So.

[Josh Radnor]

So it was someone say, can I kvetch in? And you say, yeah. You go, I'm annoyed about my haircut. I. I didn't get enough sleep. And you just. It's a litany of complaints.

[Craig Thomas]

Yeah.

[Josh Radnor]

And then you say, Instead of saying, I'm here and I'm in, you say, I'm here and I'm annoyed. And then the other person says, achoo, like a sneeze. Instead of aho. This is all like, deep marriage, you know, inside joke stuff. But one. The thing I really love about it is it's like full permission. Like, take 30 seconds to a minute and complain. Like you have a Runway. Complain, tell me what. And I won't try to fix it.

[Craig Thomas]

But I like that it's limited.

[Josh Radnor]

It's limited.

[Craig Thomas]

30 seconds. Right? That's. That's what's brilliant about that. Get it out, but don't let it spread. That's the. And I think that's. Rob Robin would say yes to that.

[Josh Radnor]

Yeah, exactly. There's another. I guess, like, we have. We have. I have a real. I like giving people permission to complain up to a point. You know what I mean? Like, we should all have. Like, we should all be cut off. There should be a timer on it, because the catharsis of it is normal and natural and. And good. But have you ever heard that thing in relationships, I. When someone comes to you with a problem and you say, do you need a tissue box, a soapbox, or a toolbox?

[Craig Thomas]

No, but that's great.

[Josh Radnor]

So it's like, tissue box is like, you just want to, like, weep and complain. I'll give you a tissue box. A soapbox is. You want to rant and you just want to rail and toolboxes. Do you want help and advice? It's good, right?

[Craig Thomas]

Good. Have we turned into a self help podcast today? Because all of this is fucking gold.

[Josh Radnor]

I think so.

[Craig Thomas]

I love this. Yeah.

[Josh Radnor]

So, yeah. So it's fascinating to watch, Ted. And the other thing that. That relationships. The way you fall in love. We might have talked about this before. The way you fall in love is like, oh, my God, she likes the Decemberists. I like the Decemberists.

[Craig Thomas]

Right.

[Josh Radnor]

Autumn is her favorite season. It's my favorite season. There's all the, like, yes, yes. This lines up. This lines up. We're similar. We're similar. We're similar. It's like nature's way of getting you to fall in love, to release those chemicals. The bonding happens, and then one day you're like, oh, we actually have some real differences, you know? And that's when a relationship. That's when you really. I think that's a moment of reckoning where you have to say, do. Do I feel strong enough about this person that I'm gonna journey through the valley of these Differences and figure out how we can be together, or is this just not. Is this gap not bridgeable? And I think they're at. They've been together long enough that they're like, at that point of like, oh, they're just hitting that point. Yeah.

[Craig Thomas]

What I like about the end of this episode is that Ted kind of went, first of all, she gives a little. She gives a little. She says, I'll listen to you complain. She misses him. She thought she was losing him. She comes to him. She literally comes to him and she has an offering. She has like donuts and coffee. She comes and is humble. But I really like that he switches modes from what I'm complaining about to what I'm excited about. And I think that's something that you can get very stuck in. Sticking with the relationship self help metaphor here, I feel like the complaining will expand to fill the space given to the complaining. That's why I like the 30 second or the one minute, the limit. And then you also need to offset the complaining by being like, this is what I fucking love. When Ted shows her that plan for the building, it's a great ending to that episode because it's like, it really uses the future perspective. The future narrator Ted is in such a low point. He feels stuck at this terrible job, and yet we get this peek through the narrator that this building's going to be built. Robin's the first person he shows this dream to, and that dream's going to come true. I really liked that moment and their connection in that moment. She comes to him with something and he's able to shift gears out of. She says, I'll listen to you complain. And he says, no, I don't need that anymore. Look at my dream. Yeah, maybe someday this will come true. And she says, that's beautiful. Yeah, it's a great moment at the end of this episode.

[Josh Radnor]

It's a great. It's a great ending scene. Like, it's a. It's a. It could otherwise be kind of a gimmicky episode if not for the. The way you guys landed the plane. Like, it really feels like it's. It was quite moving to me, that scene.

[Craig Thomas]

It was. I forgot how moving the ending of that episode was. It really got me. I really blanked. And I was thinking as I was watching it, like, oh, this one, right, Is kind of a light, farcical episode. And I want to ask you about what it was like to play that. But the ending really got me. It's Ted's first building. It's a huge fucking deal that it's his first huge career win and he doesn't know it yet, but we get to know it. And there's something nice about the dramatic irony of that.

[Josh Radnor]

And also, there's something. There's, I think, a very deep lesson in here that even if you're doing what you're passionate about for your career or what you love or what your great talent is, there's still going to be days of, like, absolute drudgery, absolute loss of belief in self, loss of belief in the larger kind of you. You lose the plot of it. Same with relationships. You can be in a great relationship that has rough patches, that has, you know, you miss each other sometimes.

[Craig Thomas]

Yeah.

[Josh Radnor]

And I think that. I think that how I met your mother was really good about not. I mean, in some ways, it's a kind of urban fantasy, but at the same time, it was really trying to ground itself in the facts of relationships, the bumpiness of relationships, the almost impossibility of communicating with people and then finding a way through it.

[Craig Thomas]

Yeah, I agree. That's what was so nice about the end of this one. Let me ask you this. What was it like to play the middle of the episode when we're kind of seeing Robin? Perception of her fear of what Ted might be that she didn't realize he was, or that she's driven him away, she's driven him to this. I'm always curious, the audience watching this for the first time, did they really buy Ted was acting that way the whole time? Are you watching it going, something's up here? I'm sure there are both reactions. I would wager you kind of know there's something up because Ted is acting so differently. Was it fun to lean into playing Barney playing Ted? But we're seeing your face. Like, what was that like to play?

[Josh Radnor]

I'll tell you this. When Jordana and I watched it, she was, like, alarmed. She was like, what's going on? Like, why is he doing that? Like, she didn't.

[Craig Thomas]

This is. Why didn't I think to ask about Jordan? She bought it.

[Josh Radnor]

I think she eventually got ahead of it. Like, she got onto it. But for a while, she was like, a little. She was, like, a little upset. Like, what's going on? I will say this. I do remember enjoying immensely playing the rake or playing the like. Yeah, kind of. Because in a series, you know, everyone is given their, like, notes on the keyboard. And even though I think Ted was a complicated character, it's like you're still playing in one off.

[Craig Thomas]

There's a certain key.

[Josh Radnor]

You know what I mean? Like, there's a certain key of Ted Skips. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So whenever I was able to do stuff, like, whether it was in Pineapple Incident, you know, where he got to be drunk, like, anything that, like, gives a little Mr. Hyde to the doctor Jekyll, I always found it to be really fun because you. You find yourself hitting those similar notes which you were hired to hit. Like, I knew that I was. I was good and fluent at those notes. That was like, I was hired in the band to play that part. But it was fun. Sometimes when, you know, it's like, I don't know, like, let Ringo sing or like. Like when you mix it up, it feels. It was really fun. And I. I found it. I remember feeling pretty liberated in it. It's almost like playing a villain can be really fun. It's like, it's just fun. It's fun to play. And I think Neil had a blast with this for nine straight years. Like, it's fun to play socially unacceptable things, like in a fictional context, where you then get to go home to your normal life and have dinner afterwards. And, like, no one's. You don't get the consequences, you get applause.

[Craig Thomas]

It's funny how the moments you got to do that kind of thing, that Ted got to do that kind of thing, even though this was kind of a fantasy, he wasn't really doing this. It's always. It makes you lean forward a little bit. It's good to keep the audience a little on their toes and be like, what's happening here? And just see another side of you as an actor. And then conversely, with Neil as Barney, when you saw a little flicker of humanity and warmth from Barney, it was really interesting. It was always those little opposite grace of the doctor, Jackal, Mr. Hyde. Like, you want to see that other side of the coin sometimes.

[Alec Lev]

Yeah.

[Craig Thomas]

And it's powerful, isn't it?

[Josh Radnor]

Also, I think they've done studies. The reason that, like, deep fakes are so concerning is because if you see one, it impress. It imprints upon you whether it's true or not. Let's just call it untrue. It's a deep. It's a deep fake. You know, politicians saying something they never said. And then when you. When it's been revealed this was actually doctored, this was. You go, oh, that wasn't real, but something of it.

[Craig Thomas]

Yeah. You still have the memory.

[Josh Radnor]

You still. It's like as if you saw it, right? Like, your reptilian brain is like, no, no, No, I saw that happen. That's true.

[Craig Thomas]

I saw this shocking thing coming out of this person's mouth and it changed my perception of them. That's what this episode kind of is in Robin's brain. It's kind of what's happening.

[Josh Radnor]

And in some ways, Ted, for both the viewer and for Robin, is like forever changed a little bit. Like the idea that, like, well, he didn't actually do those things, but he's capable of them. Or did he do that? Like, I think I saw him do them. I imagined him doing them. Other people reported he did them. Yeah. It's fascinating. It's one thing that really I find unnerving about the future we're throttling towards.

[Craig Thomas]

Oh, yes. I hate it so much. It's so bad.

[Alec Lev]

Obviously, this episode moves very quickly. And am I right in saying there is no B story? There are sort of two sides to the A story.

[Craig Thomas]

Yeah. And that's true of a lot of really good Hemyam episodes. There's not quite a B story. There's kind of things to play along the way. And I really like Lily's in this. But you're right, it's one. Everyone's kind of on the same train. There's one train creating the momentum, and then there's like these little things going on for people that are on that one train. Lily's I liked a lot because Lily's was Robin. I'm teaching you about what it takes to be in a relationship. The sacrifices, the listening to the complaints. And I know this, and I don't want to see you fuck it up because I really miss Marshall. And I lost that. And now I wish I had that back. So don't lose it. I thought that was a good angle for Lily. And that's kind of an enough. It's a 22 minute thing. Sometimes when we did A story, B story, C stories, or D story, it gets so hard to keep all those plates spinning when you find these ideas where everything is on that one train. And there's one main thing, it's kind of great. And this one had that momentum.

[Josh Radnor]

Yeah. I always like. I think Allison's very good at being like relationship Yoda.

[Craig Thomas]

Yeah. But she's bruised as she's doing it. She's lost Marshall. And I like that so much in this one. And it's kind of. It catches Robin's attention when she says, hey, I wish I had this right now.

[Josh Radnor]

Yeah. What I wouldn't give. Yeah. I did think it was a funny runner of Marshall thinking, oh, my law School classmates are going to be so devastated. Yeah, that was his little thing of this breakup.

[Craig Thomas]

No one cares.

[Josh Radnor]

But, you know, I had this in my twenties, I had a three year relationship with this wonderful woman. And I somehow, because it was my first, like, very big long term relationship, I thought everyone was very invested in us being together and staying together. Very invested.

[Craig Thomas]

This is the glue holding the universe together. Yeah. At least.

[Josh Radnor]

At least the west side of Los Angeles. I thought they need us to be together. And when we broke up, I had this thing. What are our friends gonna think?

[Craig Thomas]

How do I break this?

[Josh Radnor]

How do I break this tomb? When I tell you that no one was shocked and no one was particularly thrown. Everyone was like, yeah, I didn't. I kind of saw that. I didn't think you guys would. Do you want to play tennis? Like, no.

[Craig Thomas]

No one had a problem with it.

[Josh Radnor]

And it was. It was just a reminder of how we naturally center ourselves. You know, we.

[Craig Thomas]

Marshall is in his own.

[Josh Radnor]

He's just like the main character, and he's the main character. Him and Lily were the glue that was holding this law school class together. This Columbia Law School class was like, like needed Lily and Marshall to be together. And it's.

[Craig Thomas]

Yeah. He even says, like, we're the couple that made you all believe in love. And they're just like, what Rebecca actually pointed out. Watching it again, she's like, shouldn't Brad have said like, hey, Lily, what's up? Because Lily comes knocking and it's Brad and she's. All those people are supposed to know her and stuff. And no one really acknowledges her. It kind of felt like an error. Like, if I go back, I think I would have had Brad be like, hey, Lily, heard about the breakup. Like, some acknowledgement. I don't know, maybe we had that in the script or shot it and cut it and edit because we were always so overly long. But it was a good point. It was like, that was a little bit of a blooper. It almost felt like someone should have just been like, hey, Lily, you and Marshall are both here. Is that okay? Like some. Some little moment like that probably should have been in there. I like to do mea culpas as we go and just own some of these.

[Josh Radnor]

Some of them are we offended a marginalized community and otherwise. Other ones are we made a narrative misstep. And this old man, he must admit he fell in love with you.

[Craig Thomas]

New York City and now commercials.

[Josh Radnor]

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[Craig Thomas]

End of commercials back to show I.

[Josh Radnor]

Loved the law school party and I thought again, you guys were finding really funny ways to flash forward and prescient.

[Craig Thomas]

It felt like there's, it's almost like a Brett Kavanaugh joke in there, not to get too political.

[Josh Radnor]

Yes, totally.

[Craig Thomas]

This very debauched dude who's super, you know, he's gonna. In the future, this will be a Supreme Court justice and he'll have some stories from his party days or whatever the fuck. So that was. I enjoyed that. I enjoyed those little flash forwards. There's a couple of good little narrator flash I liked. The narrator was nicely present in this future.

[Josh Radnor]

Ted I liked. You know, I think the first time you see that guy, he's saying, who wants to shave my ass, right? And then like cut to you a couple hours earlier. We're gonna shave your ass tonight. He's like, no way. No way. What is it?

[Craig Thomas]

The wording of it is, is Joe Manganiello's character says, hey, you should let us shave your ass tonight. Which is the fucking weirdest. Like, he's really. He really wants to. He's disappointed. He's gonna be disappointed if it doesn't happen. Why does Brad want to shave this guy's ass that bad?

[Josh Radnor]

I mean, Brad, there's nothing. I saw a thing someone said. Jack Black is the only person who needs no context. Like, if you're like, jack Black's in moon boots walking down San Vicente Boulevard, you know, playing whatever song you'd be like, that tracks like. I think Brad is a little, like, he can say whatever.

[Craig Thomas]

He can just say that. Yeah, he just. He wants to. That's. That's what he's waiting for at that party, is for that to happen. He knows it's gonna happen.

[Josh Radnor]

The other. The other funny thing is, like, when you. When you. When you reverse engineer a joke like that, so you see this guy at the end again, like his very himyum thing, like, who wants to shave my ass? And then three hours earlier, he was like, under no circumstances will anyone be shaving my ass.

[Craig Thomas]

Yeah. No. What are you talking about? I'm not gonna do that. It.

[Josh Radnor]

It allows your brain. This is the fun him. Him thing. It tickles your brain because you go, what happened in the last three hours that he went from absolutely not to 100%. You should do this.

[Craig Thomas]

Yeah. All in.

[Josh Radnor]

Running into the room, it really gives it, like. It, like. I call it like a Hirschfeld drawing. You know where I use this metaphor in writing a lot? When I co. Write, I'll say, no, that's too overwritten. Like, just a couple lines to suggest, like, just Z. And then you've got the whole world. That, to me, is like a Hirschfeld drawing joke.

[Craig Thomas]

It's like, yeah, yeah. And trusting the audience to follow a backwards joke like that. That's a joke told in reverse. And yeah, this exhibited a bunch of himyum strengths this episode. How about the Field of Dreams talk that Robin's go to Horrible movie is Field of Dreams. And then they revealed that she didn't even watch the whole thing, which lets her off the hook a little bit.

[Josh Radnor]

Alex, Alec is holding up his.

[Craig Thomas]

A DVD of Field of Dreams.

[Alec Lev]

No, I'm holding up a VHS tape.

[Josh Radnor]

Wow.

[Alec Lev]

Of Field of Dreams, the first or perhaps second movie my father bought for me. We are just down the center of the barrel. Bullseye. Father, son, watching Field of Dream Dreams bought me my Field of Dreams. Here's.

[Craig Thomas]

Yeah.

[Alec Lev]

So the excellent, excellent choice. Say, say, say.

[Josh Radnor]

I. I often do over the years, I've. You know when people say, do you love Star Wars? And I'm like, no, like, no, not like that. Like, like, I'm always trying to distance myself from Ted.

[Craig Thomas]

Yeah.

[Josh Radnor]

But Let me say this.

[Craig Thomas]

Yeah.

[Josh Radnor]

Field of Dreams is one of the greatest. I saw that movie opening weekend.

[Craig Thomas]

Yeah.

[Josh Radnor]

I was in high school. I saw it opening week with some friends. I was so bowled over by that movie that I. I rounded up another group of friends to go back with me the next night. I saw it Friday night and Saturday night, opening weekend.

[Craig Thomas]

Yeah.

[Josh Radnor]

I've only done that with one other movie. I mean, I really was. I continue. I showed Jord that movie recently. She hadn't seen it, and it. I. It's just one for the ages. Like, it absolutely holds up. And it's. Yeah. Every. Every. Every part of it, I think is pretty perfect.

[Craig Thomas]

When I watched that movie, I go, how? And I know it's a book first. And I never read the book. I gotta go read the book. Which is weird, because we both adored this movie. We all adored me. Did you read the book, Alec? It's funny that we read. It's very different, right? I've heard it's very different.

[Alec Lev]

I mean, read it.

[Josh Radnor]

Why not? Read it.

[Craig Thomas]

Yeah. Yeah. I just gotta read it.

[Josh Radnor]

An hour and a half.

[Craig Thomas]

But what a genius idea. That's a movie I watch. I just go, like. I just wish I could have thought, like, how do you get to that idea? How do you think of that idea? And then thread the needle on the idea like ghost baseball players in a cornfield? And it becomes the most poignant study in fatherhood and being a son and a father. Like, it has the high concept and it so sticks the landing on what the emotional underpinning is under the high concept. It's just. It's a work of genius. Oh, I wanna say this. Phil Alden Robinson, who wrote and directed that movie, he reached out to us and sent us a little card thanking us for, like, referencing that movie and showing that the guys love the movie. I might even have that somewhere, still. He sent us a handwritten note that was like, I saw this on your show. And it was like, blew my fucking mind. Because it was season two. The show wasn't a hit yet. It was still that thing of, like, right. People watch this on TV and one of them might be the guy who did fucking Field of Dreams. He might end up seeing this.

[Josh Radnor]

Well, it's nice to have such a big platform to shout out things you love and to represent. It's also funny that even though these characters were a little younger than us, so like, three or four years younger than us.

[Craig Thomas]

Yeah.

[Josh Radnor]

It's solidly like a late Gen X cultural reference show. Right? It is like that's the. The cultural barrel we were kind of pulling from, I find, emotionally, with just.

[Alec Lev]

One more Field of Dreams, which is. It's now. It's. It's how much before the event. I start crying now. Now that I know it's coming. I don't have to wait for him to say, do you want to have a catch?

[Josh Radnor]

I am it.

[Alec Lev]

I'm 30 seconds ahead of it going, this is gonna happen again.

[Craig Thomas]

Yeah, this is gonna.

[Alec Lev]

This is. It's not just gonna hit me again. It hit me now instead.

[Craig Thomas]

I feel like I'm choked up right at the moment. Yeah.

[Josh Radnor]

The score is perfect.

[Craig Thomas]

Oh, the music in that movie. See, it all comes back to music. Full circle. Kim.

[Josh Radnor]

And also that. There's that kind of, like, beautiful but slightly ominous like. Like. Like a thing that kind of announces like, something strange is about to happen. And mystical. Yeah, yeah.

[Craig Thomas]

Resonating. Oh, my God. Beautifully shot, beautifully designed.

[Alec Lev]

Josh, I don't know if you also grew up with it with a heavy dose of JD Salinger. I know Craig and I did. Okay, so Field of Dreams is based on Shoeless Joe by W.P. kinsella, and the main character's name is Ray Kinsel. In Shoeless Joe, they actually go and seek out JD Salinger. They don't change the name to terrence, who is J.D.

[Craig Thomas]

Salinger in the book. Okay.

[Alec Lev]

And in Catcher in the Rye, one of Holden's classmates names last names is Kinsella.

[Craig Thomas]

Boy, that's crazy. Yeah, that's really weird.

[Alec Lev]

It twists in on itself. Hymns.

[Josh Radnor]

And Terrence Mann is a Broadway actor who was the original Javert in Les Mis on Broadway. Yes.

[Craig Thomas]

The simulation is officially glitching out. I don't even know what's real anymore. Wow.

[Josh Radnor]

Well, getting it back to how I met your mother, I love that. That movie, for whatever reason, is like kryptonite for men's kind of stoicism. Right? Like, even Bar, who has so much invested in a mask of imperturbability, is just. He's undone by the thought of the.

[Craig Thomas]

Movie, you guys, the outrage that she hit when the little cuts back and forth of the flashback of Robin saying she doesn't like it, and the cuts back and forth to you guys at the bar. You guys were so fucking funny in that, the three of you. The outrage and then the crying, it's just. There's a little journey there. It's. It's the best.

[Josh Radnor]

Yeah, that was a. No acting required. Like. Like. Like, I genuinely. If I showed. I mean, what if I showed Jordana Field of Dreams it didn't land on her.

[Craig Thomas]

Well, that would be the future episode, the trilogy, the whole Stella of it all. When Stella doesn't like Star wars. Later, you would have been living a version of what happened, as this is.

[Josh Radnor]

So much further down the line. But I still remember watching Sarah Chalk watch Star wars, which is so. Such a funny visual. She's trying to watch it, and he's just. Just zeroed in on her.

[Craig Thomas]

Yeah, he's just. He's not watching the screen at all. Yeah. Was that. So that was you with Field of Dreams, with Jordana, and she liked it. The good news is she liked it.

[Josh Radnor]

I hadn't seen it in quite a while, and I was just. I don't know. There are certain movies that each frame lives in your bloodstream.

[Craig Thomas]

Yeah.

[Josh Radnor]

Like, you just know the movie that well, and that Tootsie is like that for me. Or Broadcast News. Like, I just. I know them so well that there's almost pleasure. You know, we talked about this. Like, the psychological pleasure in returning to a show over and over is in a chaotic world full of unknowns and unpredictability, you actually. There's something. It calms our nervous system to know, oh, I know what's gonna happen in this episode. I know that Ted isn't cheating on Robin. I know it's Barney. Oh. Oh, I'm so relieved. I'm so relaxed by this, you know?

[Craig Thomas]

Yeah, totally. It makes sense that Ted loves Field of Dreams, too, doesn't it?

[Josh Radnor]

Oh, a hundred percent.

[Craig Thomas]

It's a dreamer's act to build that. To cut away the corn and build. It's almost architect like to create this baseball field in the corn crop. It's a very like. And everyone thinks he's crazy. It's like Ted's raindance side of him, you know what I mean? There's actually similarities.

[Josh Radnor]

And he also ultimately just wants to connect with his dad. He's just hurting.

[Craig Thomas]

And the universe wants that apparently, too. In the world of Field of Dreams, the universe is conspiring to reconnect them. It's so great.

[Josh Radnor]

Yeah.

[Craig Thomas]

Okay, I'm gonna go watch it. Right. The three of you guys are really funny in this one. It just kicked off with that Field of Dreams thing. I really enjoy the three of you guys in this one. Yeah.

[Josh Radnor]

Yeah. There was something about when it would be Ted, Marshall, and Barney and we could not be adversarial, but be kind of on the same page together that I always found very pleasing to play.

[Craig Thomas]

I loved the speechless cutaway when it was like, here's what Robin said, dissing Field of Dreams. And you just cut. And they're just like, ah, ah, ah, ah. They're beyond. It's beyond the ability to speak how outraged they are. Y.

[Josh Radnor]

And also when there was. When there was something required of like a kind of big silent reaction. Right. Like, Jason would be doing Jason's version of that. Neil would be doing Neil's version of that. And it was always like, how, like, what is. Like in. If you're creating a symphony, you can't all be doing the same thing. So it's kind of like, well, where. Oh, no, it might be nice for the oboe to come in here right now or something. Like, you're always trying to figure out what's the funny, funniest kind of trio language. Yeah. Lily even says explicitly, I feel like I'm teaching love as a second language.

[Craig Thomas]

Yeah, that's her bit. That's her bit. In this one. It's always nice to sort of name the bit and like, all right, this is the game we're playing.

[Josh Radnor]

This is.

[Craig Thomas]

This is what you're saying.

[Josh Radnor]

Yeah. I love those Supreme Court Justice. That's our Attorney General.

[Craig Thomas]

Yeah.

[Josh Radnor]

I love when Ted says, I'm going to design a cathedral tonight. Take a whack at the whole God man thing.

[Craig Thomas]

The God man conundrum.

[Josh Radnor]

Or maybe that was it was that. But was that fake, Ted? Was that actually Barney?

[Craig Thomas]

Who said that's fake? That's Barney. Yeah. I guess this is verbatim the bullshit Barney was spewing is what. Yeah, yeah.

[Josh Radnor]

Dancing leads to sex. And who says, did you grow up in that footloose town? Was that Lily?

[Craig Thomas]

Who says that? Yeah, that was Lily.

[Josh Radnor]

And what? This is also a flash forward. One of my all time favorite How I Met yout Mother jokes is when John Lithgow was on the show and he was dancing and someone tried to get. Oh, Barney tried to get him stop. And he said, oh, I'm sorry, small town preacher. Is it illegal to dance here?

[Craig Thomas]

It's funny that you would say that, because I was gonna say, I think we did multiple Footloose references that were essentially that joke. And it may be from me. Cause I feel like I make Footloose Town jokes quite a bit.

[Josh Radnor]

Yeah.

Remember we used to talk about, like, when a guest star would be on the show and it'd be like, do they not know who John Lithgow is? Like, have they never seen. Why aren't they, like, Barney's dad looks just like John Lithgow?

[Craig Thomas]

Yeah, I guess John Lithgow doesn't Exist in that him universe because he would. He looks.

[Josh Radnor]

But others, like Maury Povich exists.

[Craig Thomas]

Yeah. Maury Povich exists.

[Josh Radnor]

Regis Philbin exists. I guess just daytime talk show hosts.

[Craig Thomas]

That's it.

[Josh Radnor]

Oh. I thought it was funny how Barney explained why he did this because he had some recent bad press on the World Wide Web.

[Craig Thomas]

The World Wide Web.

[Josh Radnor]

Right. I mean, one, just the way he describes it is funny. But two, it's like, oh, he was getting canceled before cancellation.

[Craig Thomas]

Yeah. Yeah. There was a lot of prescient moments in this one.

[Josh Radnor]

Like, word was starting to spread.

[Craig Thomas]

Yes.

[Josh Radnor]

Stay away from this guy.

[Craig Thomas]

Yeah. He had to change his name briefly until it blew over. Yeah.

[Josh Radnor]

I think it's funny how they go in and, like, Barney's just, like, casually handcuffed. The woman's in the shower.

[Craig Thomas]

Yeah. What was his plan there? What was gonna happen? He's gotten one arm out. You presume that one of the other arm. Both arms were done, and he's gotten one arm out. I think that's.

[Josh Radnor]

And also, it was like, was she showering because of something they had just done or showering in anticipation of something they were about to do? That's a big question.

[Craig Thomas]

We're not going to answer that one. That's.

[Josh Radnor]

That's an unsolved How I Met yout Mother mystery.

[Craig Thomas]

Let it never be solved.

[Josh Radnor]

Please.

[Craig Thomas]

Please.

[Josh Radnor]

It's so insane how Barney just, like, will be like, okay, let's get out of here. Like, he'll sneak out, leave this woman, and leave this form note, which. It's a funny tag. It's a funny tag. Dear Resident.

[Craig Thomas]

But he's. Yeah, he's really a sociopath in this one.

[Josh Radnor]

Oh, my God.

[Craig Thomas]

We can say that about a lot.

[Josh Radnor]

Of ways, provided you keep your figure.

[Craig Thomas]

Yeah.

[Josh Radnor]

Psychotic.

[Craig Thomas]

Psychotic. Yeah. It is very casually psychotic, that whole thing. It's funny. I often like Barney's stuff when you feel like it's full of shit and mostly didn't happen in this one. It's like, no, this happened. He did this. Yeah, he really did this one. And that's always a little tricky to think about too long.

[Josh Radnor]

Yeah. He works better as an unreliable narrator.

[Craig Thomas]

I think so. Yeah.

[Josh Radnor]

I think he's more funny and more charming when it's like, I'm not sure that happened the way you said it happened. And there's something about making it more explicit that's a little bit more like, ooh, you know, like, this is a person with feelings.

[Craig Thomas]

You don't want to think about it too long. Yeah. Yeah. Well, the good news is down the line not too far from now, we start deepening and humanizing Barney. And in season one, we of course saw some of his wounds. But in episodes like this, he's just a sociopath. There's no defending it.

[Josh Radnor]

He's a scorpion. He's a scorpion. Alec, what do you got for us?

[Alec Lev]

I have many things. One thing I. I do want to mention also. Just we. We start on Field of Dreams. We can do the Field of Dreams podcast. But yes, every. Every year, on the anniversary of my father's death, which is coming up in 10 days, we would. I would watch Field of Dreams. And then after the first 20 years, I stopped. But every now and then, we. We bring it back. We can. We can do this one forever.

[Josh Radnor]

It's just.

[Craig Thomas]

It's a. Yeah. I mean, it is the ultimate father son movie. I love that that was your guys movie. I love that you. Yeah. Keep it alive. That's a tradition. You know what I mean? Like, that's amazing. That's a work of art.

[Alec Lev]

All right, well, I have a message. Just a simple message from Chris Song. Who. You can tell us who that is, and then I'll read you the very short message.

[Josh Radnor]

Great. Chris was the second second, right?

[Craig Thomas]

Yeah. I mean, yeah, this is a himyamer. There's a hymnum staffer, a long time. Wonderful dude.

[Josh Radnor]

Like day one to first day to last day, I think or may he came.

[Craig Thomas]

Oh, boy. Was he fully door to door. He was there for a huge amount of it. Chris, we suck that we're forgetting exactly the most of it anyway.

[Josh Radnor]

Well, I will say that the sec. So there's the director, the first assistant director, second assistant director, and then the second second, which is. I don't know why they don't call it a third, but it's the second second. And the second second. Their big job is directing the extras, the background actors. So Chris. Actually some of those. If you're on enough sets. Some of the ways that people talk to the background actors can be incredibly disrespectful and rude. And Chris was a master at it. He was so good at. You know, every once in a while, Mike Shea would jump in with a global note. Like sexier, really sexy time. We're gonna have a sexy, sexy at.

[Craig Thomas]

The dance, like at a dance club.

[Josh Radnor]

And we had to dance silent. It was.

[Craig Thomas]

Yeah, it's. Which is the least sexy thing of all time.

[Josh Radnor]

But Chris. Chris was awesome. Chris was on for years and years and years.

[Craig Thomas]

Great dude. Big part of the family and a big. And wrangling all of that there, there's a lot like in a big bar scene, the crossing, the blocking, the what, what the extras are doing on New York Street. How it all. How it all. The whole puzzle comes together. It's actually a lot.

[Josh Radnor]

Yeah.

[Alec Lev]

And the message simply just says, I've been loving and hearing and seeing you guys talk about the old days. Great job with Whim Yam.

[Josh Radnor]

Congratulations. Congratulations. Oh, thanks, Chris.

[Craig Thomas]

Thank you, Chris. We miss you, buddy.

[Alec Lev]

All right, so we have some general questions.

[Craig Thomas]

General questions.

[Alec Lev]

General questions.

[Josh Radnor]

Oh, wow, that. My bad. That was me finally.

[Alec Lev]

Not me.

[Josh Radnor]

That was.

[Craig Thomas]

Blame the Internet.

[Alec Lev]

Okay, shezan_ faya_ 474F says how. How did Spokane get chosen for the skyscraper site? It's so far away from New York City and randomly has a vertical building clause that doesn't allow buildings to be taller than a certain height. I've lived there for several years and always wondered why they didn't have tall buildings like GNB promised.

[Craig Thomas]

It is a huge. It is a really huge building in a really small town in retrospect, but the fact that we've been fact checked and debunked, we have absolutely violated the city code or something of Spokane, Washington. You got us. What can you do but take the hit in a scenario like this? You got us.

[Josh Radnor]

Isn't it funny though that not real. The things that people get hooked on. Like, I'm sure you know, if you're from Spokane, you're like, okay, that's, that's of interest to me.

[Craig Thomas]

Bullshit.

[Josh Radnor]

But like out of 208 episodes, all the proper nouns dropped. Someone's like, I gotta know, why did you violate Spokane's building code? Like, you can't.

[Craig Thomas]

Look, this is the Spokane we want to ignore exist. We think there's a lot of promise to build vertically in Spokane. We're trying to subtly put that out there. It hasn't happened in 20 years.

[Josh Radnor]

It was basically our only goal with the show was to change the building codes in Spokane, Washington.

[Craig Thomas]

This was our main cause of the show. If you're listening, Spokane, it's not too late.

[Josh Radnor]

Maybe it was like a mid sized American city that you were just putting your money on. You're like, Spokane is on the up and up. By 2035, Spokane is going to be the spokesman spot.

[Craig Thomas]

I cannot for the life of me tell you why we chose Spokane, Washington. There's no good story here. Did we throw a dart at a map? And I don't know what the fuck. But I guess it wasn't that we wanted Ted's first building. Not to be like, it's right next to the Empire State Building, you know, Wanted to be like, it's somewhere random.

[Josh Radnor]

Right, right. He needed to start in smaller markets.

[Craig Thomas]

Yeah, smaller markets. Yeah.

[Alec Lev]

You talked about this a little bit at the beginning. We'll see if there's anything else to mine from it. And. And just to note that others did note this, some artist out there says, as many other Himyum episodes, this one introduced me to one of my favorite songs and bands of all time. With Here I Dreamt I Was An Architect by the Decemberists. Himyim always had some exquisite indie music that I ended up loving dearly. I wanted to ask if you realized at the time that the song's lyrics have some romantic themes that line up very nicely with Robin and Ted's relationship, or was it just chosen because it had the word architect in the title?

[Craig Thomas]

Definitely the latter at first. I mean, it was definitely like. Like I said, one of our writers, Gloria, put it on a mix because it said architect, I think. But the tone and the feeling and the vibe of it, it's very Ted. It's. I liked what Cam said at the beginning of this whole episode. Like, there's. It's Ted. There's, like, Ted's soul is rhyming and echoing with these songs in some way, and that one definitely hasn't. You're right. When you listen to the lyrics, it's very smart. It's very heartfelt. It's very. Yeah. And there's, like, a little bit of sweetness in there. It's very. There's. It's a very hymn song. So y. Yeah, I think it. The stars align.

[Josh Radnor]

I don't know if you have this, Craig, but a lot of times with music, I'll get hooked by the melody or even the title, and that's what will be my intro. That's what will take me into the song. And then I spend a little more time with the song, and I realize, oh, no, the lyrics are actually where the heart of it lies and what I was almost being invited towards. There's a lot of ways to get. You know, there's a lot of ways to go into a song.

[Craig Thomas]

But, yeah, even, like our. Your song, that is the theme song of this podcast. I was listening to it today, and it really jumped out at me. Like, tell you everything in New York City. Allow me to tell you everything that. That sentiment of I want to tell you a story. Like, somehow, today, more than ever, we're like 50 episodes into this thing, whatever we are. I Was like, oh, that really works for how I met your mother. Allow me to tell you everything.

[Josh Radnor]

And this. This old man must admit he fell in love with you in New York City. Yeah.

[Craig Thomas]

You didn't write it to be the theme song of this podcast, for example. But sometimes these things, like there's some weird mystical thing that just rhymes together, things go together, lyrics and melodies that the song, the December song song somehow rhymes with Ted. I think we only put it on there at first because it said architect, and this was Ted Mosby, architect. And then you're like, oh, this absolutely works. That's the magic, right? That's the magic of just fitting it all together, the puzzle coming together.

[Josh Radnor]

And even the choice to make him an architect. It's kind of a. You know, it's kind of like a dartboard of romantic comedy professions. Right. But there's something in this particular show where it's a guy constructing or reconstructing, rather, his story, but he, in the present, is really building, brick by brick, his life. You know, it becomes like a much bigger metaphor.

[Craig Thomas]

Yeah. It's not going to be that building until many, many years from now, and we don't know what it's going to look like.

[Josh Radnor]

Right?

[Craig Thomas]

Yeah. And that was definitely part of why we made Tetan Architect, because we thought it was meta for the whole endeavor.

[Josh Radnor]

By the way, speaking of music, just a plug for an interview. Ezra Klein interviewed Brian Eno.

[Craig Thomas]

Oh, cool.

[Josh Radnor]

And it's fantastic. But he talks about, as an artist, he makes a distinction between being an architect and a gardener or a farmer. And he says he always wants to be a gardener or a farmer and not an architect, because the architect has plans. They know where they're headed, and then someone executes those plans, and it's kind of fixed where you're going. He said a gardener is like, you plant the seeds and you tend to it, and it kind of. Nature takes over at some point, and you, You're. You're watering it, you're tending to it, you're seeing. You're Marsh. You know, you're, You're, you're, you're putting some guardrails around it. But I just, I. I thought that distinction was really cool. And, And I can't recommend that highly enough. That interview was really it. I found it very moving.

[Alec Lev]

Uh, Derek Warman asks, since we know this was beginning based off Carter and Craig and their lives and relationships, where do they end and the characters begin? Like, where is the point in these storylines that are not something they went through and not true at all to who they were as people.

[Craig Thomas]

Immediately it begins. It begins in the pilot. You know what I mean? It really is. It's just a tone. It's a weigh in. It's our connection to these characters was a weigh in. And then you get these wonderful actors who teach you all these things about these characters and all these things about what they. The actors are good at and can surprise you with. And you chase that as much as you keep alive your connection to the characters as a showrunner, show creator. But you have to let it grow into other things. And it starts immediately, I think.

[Josh Radnor]

Right. Episode two, after Craig proposed to Rebecca and popped a champagne cork into her eye and she had to go to hospital.

[Craig Thomas]

That's the thing. You're just looking for the emotional way into these characters. And then we never knew we're going to do 208 episodes. But if you remained too slavish to. This has to be literally our lives or it doesn't feel true or we can't write. No, you want to go find shit out. Like, even in this episode, like, it was fun for Josh to play this rake. Like he said, like, it was fun. This was a different speed for Josh to do, for Ted, to see Ted, do you want to find those things? You got to keep it interesting. And yeah, certainly this story never happened in this episode.

[Josh Radnor]

Well, it's also cool. The more we talk, Craig, the more you realize. I mean, I'm re Realizing it, but also the listener that this show, it's a hive mind. The writer's room is a hive mind.

[Craig Thomas]

Yes.

[Josh Radnor]

So, like, Courtney Kang steals little things to write. The karma in the world, you know, that finds its way in, that did not come from Ewan Carter. Right.

[Craig Thomas]

Let me get Courtney arrested retroactively for having talked about this as much.

[Josh Radnor]

She's a vigilante, Courtney K. She's out there, but only for good. Courtney, you're doing it for good.

[Cam]

Good.

[Josh Radnor]

Yeah.

[Craig Thomas]

Teach a lesson.

[Josh Radnor]

But no, it's cool. It's cool to. To know, like, where these different things came from. And also when you don't remember, which is more the case.

[Craig Thomas]

Much more the case.

[Josh Radnor]

You don't remember. It's just like it just came out of the room, you know, it's just the magic.

[Craig Thomas]

It's the magic of the thing. It's. Why do those lyrics fit with this thing? I had? What came first, the melody or the lyrics? Does the melody have the same meaning as the lyrics? It's all it. It. It has so many moving parts. It really does feel like the magic and the mystery to be very cheesy of what it is to be creative. Right. Ideally, you can't even reconstruct how you got to a thing because it's too varied. Too many things went into it. I forget what is a line I wrote or what is a line Carter wrote or did this come from someone else's life? This is kind of like my life. I can't remember. And it is, it's a hive mind. Something happens in a good writer's room where it just becomes like one big brain thinking.

[Josh Radnor]

Yeah. And then you leap off the other person's idea. Like three average jokes lead to the one you know. But those average jokes are like vital.

[Craig Thomas]

Yeah. You have to start somewhere. You don't find the twist unless you start with the thing and then you find the twist on the twist on the twist. And that's what, that's, that's what's beautiful.

[Josh Radnor]

Brian Eno does a beautiful deep dive into what troubles him from a creative standpoint about AI and large language models. And one of the things he said, he was a watercolor painter when he was younger. And he said at the end of the day, no matter what he was painting, no matter what the color palette was, the water at the end was always the same bland, brownish gray color, no matter what. And he gave a name for the color. He called it Munge, which is a great name. He said, this color is Munge.

[Craig Thomas]

Munge, What a good word.

[Josh Radnor]

And it was just this undistinguished, kind of bland blah of a color.

[Craig Thomas]

Yes.

[Josh Radnor]

And he said his experience is when you start working creatively with AI, it feels vibrant and alive, live. And he said an hour in, it's Munge. Like, it's like, it's just, it just becomes munge. It just becomes this kind of. And I think there's something about when you get, you know, I, I, I feel strongly like defensive of human beings in creative, in the creative act as AI comes more and more knocking. And there's something about this show, I mean, how I make mother say what you want about it. It's not munching. It has its own vibrant palette.

[Craig Thomas]

It's very specific.

[Josh Radnor]

It's very specific. And to me, it's kind of like an artifact of like, it's handmade, it's hand woven, it's artisanal. This was made by humans, you know, for a multi national corporation. But it was made, it was made by humans.

[Craig Thomas]

We have to say that. They make us say that. Our overlords, our corporate overlords.

[Josh Radnor]

Yes. We say that we got a letter and I'm going to read it right now. Hi guys. My name is Sebastian and I am from Mexico City. I think I pronounced that correctly. I discovered him Yim because my sister started watching when I was 11. 11's like the cut off, I think. I remember being at a Father's Day party with my whole family. Feeling extremely isolated and alone, I slipped away to my father's studio, looked for himyum on a not so legal website. And in that moment, I found a safe place somewhere I didn't have to worry about how I felt for a while and where I could lose myself in an interesting story. The show helped me get through high school and it became one of the things I shared with my very first love. Since then, Himyim has always been with me. It has helped me through breakups, fights, loss, loneliness, and even depression, which has been a struggle for me since I was young. When I was 18, at my graduation, my sister gave me the complete box set of the series. She told me, since you are starting college, life is going to get harder. You will feel confused, alone, and everything will change. I know how life can feel at this time, so I want you to have this to remind you that your life is just beginning. No matter what happens, you can always come back to where you feel at home. You might need it sometime. Because of that, Himyim not only helped me build a stronger relationship with her, but it also became a tradition for me. I've watched the show at least twice a year ever since, and it will always be a part of me. Now at 25, I know the show by heart and I cannot stress the enough how relevant it has been in my life. Always reminding me of the things I needed to hear at just the right time. I was hesitant to write this, but listening to the podcast almost brought me to tears. Hearing how other people feel the same way about the show, I am truly glad I found it. Kimyum has helped me believe that everything that has happened in my life had a reason. Because one day I will be able to tell my story too. Thank you wholeheartedly for this, for the love you poured into the show and for the decision to revisit it now.

[Craig Thomas]

Yeah, I'm. I'm stuck on the illegally downloading thing because we don't see any of that money. So not cool.

[Josh Radnor]

Did it. Did it come with a check Alec, like back pay?

[Alec Lev]

I didn't see one. I looked. I looked.

[Craig Thomas]

I tuned out after that line. Was there more of that line?

[Alec Lev]

I venmo I don't know if it's coming through.

[Josh Radnor]

That. That was ses.

[Craig Thomas]

That was amazing. That was an amazing letter.

[Josh Radnor]

That was beautiful. Beautiful, beautiful. I imagine it must be. I mean, there is a sense, like, when you love something that it's yours.

[Craig Thomas]

Yeah.

[Josh Radnor]

And there can be a little bit heartbreak when you're like, oh, no. Other people feel this way about it too. But you also can feel like you're a part of a tribe or a community that you share something with. I also think it's very interesting. I went to a memorial for a playwright that I worked with a few times who was just a genius named Richard Greenberg. He wrote so many brilliant plays. And I was talking with some people afterwards, and I was talking with this actress, and we were talking about how the phenomenon that everyone feels old all the time, like, no matter how old you are.

[Craig Thomas]

Yeah, Like, I, I, that's very true.

[Josh Radnor]

I hear, you know, I hear from people in their 20s who are like, my life is over. I don't know where I'm going. Like, I, you know, it's too late for me. And it's like, you're 22 years old.

[Craig Thomas]

I remember feeling that way at 19.

[Josh Radnor]

Oh, yeah. Well, also, the beginning of how I met your mother is. I'm 27. Life is passing me by. I have to get my life started, you know?

[Craig Thomas]

Yeah. It's so funny to rewatch that. We probably really meant it at the time.

[Josh Radnor]

Like, I. You feel. I remember being in my 20s and 30s and feeling kind of old.

[Craig Thomas]

Oh, yeah.

[Josh Radnor]

And now I look back and I'm.

[Craig Thomas]

Like, buddy, we're way fucking older now. We're way older now. Do you know what that letter reminded me of? First of all, I want to say that letter was absolutely beautiful. Thank you for sharing that. I'm so glad the show found you in the way that it did. Sebastian. I'm hoping now I'm not saying his name correctly, but you know what it made me think of that I love is the older sister, like, bestowing, like, gifting to the Almost Famous. You and Josh, we still have the magic. That's exactly where I was going with that. Almost Famous. Here's this mysterious box. Like, he even said, the box that she gave me. The box that.

[Josh Radnor]

This show will make you cool.

[Craig Thomas]

This show will make you cool. If you listen to this with a candle lit, you'll see your future. Like, it really had that feeling of that, the cool older sister giving the thing to the kid. The fact that in this case, I mean, in Almost Famous, it's all the greatest records of all time. The fact that she did this with How I Met yout Mother just means the world, and I'm so glad it found you and met you where you were and needed it.

[Josh Radnor]

And I'm glad it strengthened your relationship with your sister too, which is a really moving part of the that's like.

[Craig Thomas]

My favorite part of Almost Famous is the older sister that gives the clues I'm an only child and I think like, I wish I had a cool older sibling who's like, here's all the records you need to have heard. You know what I mean? I didn't have that and I just love that aspect of that letter.

[Josh Radnor]

Thanks so much. If you want to send us a voice note or send us a written letter, please go to how we madeyourmother.com quimyum.com will also work. Go to Contact, Follow the directions, the prompts. It'll be pretty easy from there, but we'd love to to either read your letter on the air or play your voice note on the air. It's truly been one of our favorite parts of this adventure we've been on. This revisiting of the show is hearing from people who've been watching it and why they love it and why they continue to love it. Thanks so much. I am guilty. Please acquit me. All sins are forgiven in New York City.

[Alec Lev]

How We Made youe Mother is hosted and executive produced by Josh Radner and Craig Thomas and is presented and distributed by the Office Ladies Network and Odyssey. This episode is also executive produced by Jenna Fisher and Angela Kinsey. The show is produced and edited by me, Alec Lev and our co producer is Doug Matica. Our audio producer and mixer is Alex Reeves at Point of Blue Studios. Our digital content producer, AKA Gen Z Master, is Emily Blumberg. Artwork by John Morrow. Please follow rate and review the show on Apple Podcasts or your podcast player of choice. It really does help the show. Our theme song is New York City by our own Josh Radner, with additional music by Craig Thomas and Andrew Majewski. Special thanks to Lola Kennedy and Elliot Connors. Visit how we made your mother.com to learn more and click on the contact page to send us an email or a voice message. Your stories and questions are an important part of the show. Subscribe to Josh Radner's Muse Letters on Substack and check out his music and everything [e-mail] order Craig Thomas's debut novel, that's Not How It Happened, wherever books are sold, and check out his other book published writings at craig thomas writer.com and you can subscribe to My own Dead Fathers Society, also on Substack to learn more about how you make a difference, this show's ongoing campaign to raise money for congenital pediatric heart disease research, check out the Make a Difference tab at the top of our website. People will, in fact, dance.

[Josh Radnor]

The real question it just hit me. Am I in love with you or just New York City?